Re: [WISPA] TV Whitespaces PtP Backhaul
For an idea of antenna size... look at a TV antenna. Same band, same size antenna for same gain. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 9:45 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] TV Whitespaces PtP Backhaul Even in our area in eastern Indiana there is lots of 5.8 still available for PTP. 700 PTP is not necessary in my opinion. I am concerned about 700 Mhz antenna sizes. Aren't sectors going to be huge to get the 4 watt at the antenna? I am also concerned about the CPE Panel size. Going from a 15 Panel to a 20 panel gives us a lot more wind issues at the client. Don't get me wrong I am excited about the whitespace out come. I appreciated the work of the Whitespace committee. We have tower owners who are concerned about the sizes of our antennas now. Change from a 12 foot 900 Omni to a 16+ foot 700 will not get rave reviews. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 8:35 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] TV Whitespaces PtP Backhaul I keep seeing desire to have a special category set aside for PtP backhaul operations in the whitespaces. To those of you that understand the extreme rural environments... Is this at all necessary? I don't see why it would be. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] TV Whitespaces PtP Backhaul
That's scary. And that's only a receiver antenna. So are we looking at an extra trailer behind our install trucks to carry an 8ft x 6ft yagi as well as 10 foot tv tower sections to get it up high enough and away from the house. Steve Barnes RCWiFi Wireless Internet -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 12:54 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] TV Whitespaces PtP Backhaul For an idea of antenna size... look at a TV antenna. Same band, same size antenna for same gain. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 9:45 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] TV Whitespaces PtP Backhaul Even in our area in eastern Indiana there is lots of 5.8 still available for PTP. 700 PTP is not necessary in my opinion. I am concerned about 700 Mhz antenna sizes. Aren't sectors going to be huge to get the 4 watt at the antenna? I am also concerned about the CPE Panel size. Going from a 15 Panel to a 20 panel gives us a lot more wind issues at the client. Don't get me wrong I am excited about the whitespace out come. I appreciated the work of the Whitespace committee. We have tower owners who are concerned about the sizes of our antennas now. Change from a 12 foot 900 Omni to a 16+ foot 700 will not get rave reviews. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 8:35 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] TV Whitespaces PtP Backhaul I keep seeing desire to have a special category set aside for PtP backhaul operations in the whitespaces. To those of you that understand the extreme rural environments... Is this at all necessary? I don't see why it would be. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] TV Whitespaces PtP Backhaul
Could you elaborate on why this is a bad idea? I'm slightly interested in it for low cost connections. In my current area, I don't have a problem finding grain legs for AP sites. These would be dense enough that I could build a great network with white spaces cells and 5GHz backhauls. But if I look farther north in Michigan, the forests are denser and the grain legs disappear. The terrain is flat enough that I can't use mountains for cheap tower sites. And none of the 900-2.4-3.65-5GHz radios are going thru the trees. It seems like a PtP backhaul that would work ten(?) miles thru trees would be a great cost savings over building towers. Maybe use two channels for full duplex. The rural areas that I'm looking at have over twenty channels free. (thanks Brian Webster for your kmz!) On Nov 17, 2008, at 10:28 PM, John Scrivner wrote: We have been fighting it. Towerstream seems to have somehow created a perception that they are justified in this desire to set aside TVWS spectrum for this inefficient use. We have been fighting it and we will continue to do so. Scriv On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 7:34 PM, Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I keep seeing desire to have a special category set aside for PtP backhaul operations in the whitespaces. To those of you that understand the extreme rural environments... Is this at all necessary? I don't see why it would be. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] TV Whitespaces PtP Backhaul
Wonder why it attached the reply... - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 5:41 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] TV Whitespaces PtP Backhaul WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] TV Whitespaces PtP Backhaul
At these freqs, 75ohn RG6 cable is usable with reasonable loss. maybe 75ohm cpe is the way to go... Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: 75 ohms. Someone will spin 50 ohm models. Or just put up with the minor VSWR. - Original Message - From: Blair Davis To: WISPA General List Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 5:22 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] TV Whitespaces PtP Backhaul Look at the BLONDER TONGUE BTY-10-U UHF single channel units Third photo down on the left. I'd look hard at these as CPE antennas... Steve Barnes wrote: That's scary. And that's only a receiver antenna. So are we looking at an extra trailer behind our install trucks to carry an 8ft x 6ft yagi as well as 10 foot tv tower sections to get it up high enough and away from the house. Steve Barnes RCWiFi Wireless Internet -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 12:54 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] TV Whitespaces PtP Backhaul For an idea of antenna size... look at a TV antenna. Same band, same size antenna for same gain. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: "Steve Barnes" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 9:45 PM To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] TV Whitespaces PtP Backhaul Even in our area in eastern Indiana there is lots of 5.8 still available for PTP. 700 PTP is not necessary in my opinion. I am concerned about 700 Mhz antenna sizes. Aren't sectors going to be huge to get the 4 watt at the antenna? I am also concerned about the CPE Panel size. Going from a 15" Panel to a 20" panel gives us a lot more wind issues at the client. Don't get me wrong I am excited about the whitespace out come. I appreciated the work of the Whitespace committee. We have tower owners who are concerned about the sizes of our antennas now. Change from a 12 foot 900 Omni to a 16+ foot 700 will not get rave reviews. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 8:35 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] TV Whitespaces PtP Backhaul I keep seeing desire to have a special category set aside for PtP backhaul operations in the whitespaces. To those of you that understand the extreme rural environments... Is this at all necessary? I don't see why it would be. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wir
Re: [WISPA] TV Whitespaces PtP Backhaul
We have been fighting it. Towerstream seems to have somehow created a perception that they are justified in this desire to set aside TVWS spectrum for this inefficient use. We have been fighting it and we will continue to do so. Scriv On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 7:34 PM, Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: I keep seeing desire to have a special category set aside for PtP backhaul operations in the whitespaces. To those of you that understand the extreme rural environments... Is this at all necessary? I don't see why it would be. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] TV Whitespaces PtP Backhaul
Even in our area in eastern Indiana there is lots of 5.8 still available for PTP. 700 PTP is not necessary in my opinion. I am concerned about 700 Mhz antenna sizes. Aren't sectors going to be huge to get the 4 watt at the antenna? I am also concerned about the CPE Panel size. Going from a 15 Panel to a 20 panel gives us a lot more wind issues at the client. Don't get me wrong I am excited about the whitespace out come. I appreciated the work of the Whitespace committee. We have tower owners who are concerned about the sizes of our antennas now. Change from a 12 foot 900 Omni to a 16+ foot 700 will not get rave reviews. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 8:35 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] TV Whitespaces PtP Backhaul I keep seeing desire to have a special category set aside for PtP backhaul operations in the whitespaces. To those of you that understand the extreme rural environments... Is this at all necessary? I don't see why it would be. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] TV Whitespaces PtP Backhaul
At these freqs, I'd suspect that yagi's will be the best choice for cpe's. Steve Barnes wrote: Even in our area in eastern Indiana there is lots of 5.8 still available for PTP. 700 PTP is not necessary in my opinion. I am concerned about 700 Mhz antenna sizes. Aren't sectors going to be huge to get the 4 watt at the antenna? I am also concerned about the CPE Panel size. Going from a 15" Panel to a 20" panel gives us a lot more wind issues at the client. Don't get me wrong I am excited about the whitespace out come. I appreciated the work of the Whitespace committee. We have tower owners who are concerned about the sizes of our antennas now. Change from a 12 foot 900 Omni to a 16+ foot 700 will not get rave reviews. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 8:35 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] TV Whitespaces PtP Backhaul I keep seeing desire to have a special category set aside for PtP backhaul operations in the whitespaces. To those of you that understand the extreme rural environments... Is this at all necessary? I don't see why it would be. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] TV Whitespaces PtP Backhaul
I don't recall the exact length but we have an enormous fiberglass 450 mhz omni on our tower. At least 12 ft and it withstood the hurricane of Ohio with 60 mph winds a few months back. On 11/17/08, Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Even in our area in eastern Indiana there is lots of 5.8 still available for PTP. 700 PTP is not necessary in my opinion. I am concerned about 700 Mhz antenna sizes. Aren't sectors going to be huge to get the 4 watt at the antenna? I am also concerned about the CPE Panel size. Going from a 15 Panel to a 20 panel gives us a lot more wind issues at the client. Don't get me wrong I am excited about the whitespace out come. I appreciated the work of the Whitespace committee. We have tower owners who are concerned about the sizes of our antennas now. Change from a 12 foot 900 Omni to a 16+ foot 700 will not get rave reviews. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 8:35 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] TV Whitespaces PtP Backhaul I keep seeing desire to have a special category set aside for PtP backhaul operations in the whitespaces. To those of you that understand the extreme rural environments... Is this at all necessary? I don't see why it would be. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Sent from my mobile device Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] TV Whitespaces PtP Backhaul
I am concerned about 700 Mhz antenna sizes. Aren't sectors going to be huge to get the 4 watt at the antenna? To be clear, TVWS is different than 700 MHz. The 700 MHz band sold at auction. TVWS is lower in frequency which will mean even larger antennas for equivalent gain. The physics of it all do not change. The size will be what it is for the gain you want. It is easy to envision we will see 1 watt radios with 6 db antennas which related to 4 watts EIRP. Even at the lower frequencies the 6 db antenna will be a manageable size. I am guessing the best systems will have lower radio power and higher antenna gain in order to increase receive sensitivity (with very large antennas). These are just my thoughts though. I am also concerned about the CPE Panel size. Going from a 15 Panel to a 20 panel gives us a lot more wind issues at the client. Once again, the physics determine the size antenna required for a given gain. At the lower TV frequencies the ability to produce higher power radios at lower cost should offset likely reduced antenna gains. Scriv WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] TV Whitespaces PtP Backhaul
I've got territory ranging from a town of 35K to open wheat fields to rolling to tall mountains heavily forested. I can find no particular need for, and in fact, find that low frequency backhauls are at least sometimes self-defeating, due to huge Fresnel zones, for instance. What I need, in particular, is smallish cells that are good for 1-4 miles and go through lots of trees and don't need to be mounted high above the ground. I also need the same 1-2 mile wide cells that can go through urban, heavily tree'd areas, where I can't have tall masts or CPE antennas.What I need for backhauls is stuff that's good for 10 to 30 miles w/20 to 30 mbit throughput capability. And, I need at least 8, prefer 10 to 15 mbit total capacity per AP, though I expect only 3-15 clients per AP.I need QOS which gives me good VOIP call quality and the ability to control bandwidth at the CPE end. And I need to be able to install this with cpe cost under 300 dollars. And AP cost less than 500. I've been using Ubiquiti 900 stuff for some of this, but it has serious limitations at 900 mhz. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 5:34 PM Subject: [WISPA] TV Whitespaces PtP Backhaul I keep seeing desire to have a special category set aside for PtP backhaul operations in the whitespaces. To those of you that understand the extreme rural environments... Is this at all necessary? I don't see why it would be. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
