Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

2010-03-31 Thread Mark McElvy
Ok, dumb question time. How does electrical downtilt work on an omni?

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Josh Luthman
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 9:50 PM
To: sarn...@info-ed.com; WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

Electrical down tilt helps for that kind of installation.

On 3/30/10, Scottie Arnett sarn...@info-ed.com wrote:
 As a rule of thumb, as the dB gets higher(or smaller in negative
speak) in
 an antenna, the beam width of the opposing polarity of the antenna
gets
 smaller, and thus harder to work with.

 As an example, I have used 15dB Omni's in 2.4Ghz(I'll leave the brand
 unannounced). I first put them about 60 feet in the air and found that
I
 could not get a good usable signal unless I was about 2 miles or so
from the
 tower. I dropped them to 20 - 25 feet and picked up clients within .25
miles
 out to a couple of miles. The horizontal beam width on the Omni was so
 small, I was way overshooting my intended target.

 Lesson learned was to always look at both vert and horiz beam width,
and
 lesson learned on the 15dB Omni is to only use in trailer parks, very
small
 subdivisions, and RV parks... and ... to not mount it above 30 feet
high.

 Scottie

 -- Original Message --
 From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com
 Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Date:  Mon, 29 Mar 2010 18:41:21 -0400

Well, I've been setting up a service contract with my friends on
planet
Wispalon so I need to find the proper tilt angle to beam the signal
into
space.  :)

Yeah, I've been mindful to stay off the horizon, seems wasteful in a
big
way.  I'm not a trig scholar so I use basic tilt angle calculators
which
have never failed me but these things have me upside down.  Tower
height,
distance desired and all are good to have but I was really interested
in
others experiences with them and how they have been able to get their
angles.  Again, the smaller, lower gain sectors have been right on the
 money
but I wasn't aware (ignorant) that these high gain units would give me
a
smaller slice to work with.  On the advice of another member I have
been
trying one AP with 4 120 degree 19dbi sectors used as 90's.  Signal is
 great
where we can see it, just needed a good fix for not having to do the 2
man
show all over the county.  (With everyone in a pickup truck stopping
to ask
why we're by the road with an antenna)

Bob-


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
On
Behalf Of Lawrence E. Bakst
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 5:50 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

Technically speaking you're wrong. The highest gain area of a sector
 antenna
is the center point between the horizontal and vertical spreads. If
you
don't downtilt you are sending the strongest part of the signal
parallel to
the horizon. Why would you ever want to do that? The whole reason you
downtilt is to get the strongest signal pointed to the area you want.

Figuring this out takes some basic trig calcs using the tangent
function.

No one has asked the most important questions you need to know when
calculating downtilt:

1. How high up is the sector antenna?

2. How far out or in what range near to far do you want the sweet
spot?

3. How close in to the tower do you need service?

#2 and #3 can conflict with each other and you may have to make a
tradeoff.

leb

At 2:22 PM -0400 3/29/10, Faisal Imtiaz wrote:
. Technically speaking.. if you are not concerned about dealing
with
'near' customers less than 1 or 2 miles... then you can pretty
much
leave the sectors at '0' tilt.. and you have coverage to the
horizon

The built-in electrical down-tilt typically throws folks off..
only
becomes a factor if you are needing to down tilt for near customers..

Faisal.

On 3/29/2010 1:36 PM, Robert West wrote:
 I'm having a heck of a time with the large UBNT sectors getting the
tilt
 angle to jive.  With the smaller sectors, they behave perfectly and
go
right
 where the calculations say they will however, with the larger ones,
nothing
 I do other than have someone 10 miles out with a CPE check levels
while
 I
 tilt up and down seems to be good.  I REALLY don't want to have to
do
that
 with all of them...



 Anyone having any success or insight with the proper tilt of these
things?
 Using the 120 degree 5GHz flavors.



 Thanks!



 Robert West

 Just Micro Digital Services Inc.

 740-335-7020



 Logo5










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Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

2010-03-31 Thread Greg Ihnen
It projects a cone instead of a disc.

Greg

On Mar 31, 2010, at 7:56 AM, Mark McElvy wrote:

 Ok, dumb question time. How does electrical downtilt work on an omni?
 
 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Josh Luthman
 Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 9:50 PM
 To: sarn...@info-ed.com; WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle
 
 Electrical down tilt helps for that kind of installation.
 
 On 3/30/10, Scottie Arnett sarn...@info-ed.com wrote:
 As a rule of thumb, as the dB gets higher(or smaller in negative
 speak) in
 an antenna, the beam width of the opposing polarity of the antenna
 gets
 smaller, and thus harder to work with.
 
 As an example, I have used 15dB Omni's in 2.4Ghz(I'll leave the brand
 unannounced). I first put them about 60 feet in the air and found that
 I
 could not get a good usable signal unless I was about 2 miles or so
 from the
 tower. I dropped them to 20 - 25 feet and picked up clients within .25
 miles
 out to a couple of miles. The horizontal beam width on the Omni was so
 small, I was way overshooting my intended target.
 
 Lesson learned was to always look at both vert and horiz beam width,
 and
 lesson learned on the 15dB Omni is to only use in trailer parks, very
 small
 subdivisions, and RV parks... and ... to not mount it above 30 feet
 high.
 
 Scottie
 
 -- Original Message --
 From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com
 Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Date:  Mon, 29 Mar 2010 18:41:21 -0400
 
 Well, I've been setting up a service contract with my friends on
 planet
 Wispalon so I need to find the proper tilt angle to beam the signal
 into
 space.  :)
 
 Yeah, I've been mindful to stay off the horizon, seems wasteful in a
 big
 way.  I'm not a trig scholar so I use basic tilt angle calculators
 which
 have never failed me but these things have me upside down.  Tower
 height,
 distance desired and all are good to have but I was really interested
 in
 others experiences with them and how they have been able to get their
 angles.  Again, the smaller, lower gain sectors have been right on the
 money
 but I wasn't aware (ignorant) that these high gain units would give me
 a
 smaller slice to work with.  On the advice of another member I have
 been
 trying one AP with 4 120 degree 19dbi sectors used as 90's.  Signal is
 great
 where we can see it, just needed a good fix for not having to do the 2
 man
 show all over the county.  (With everyone in a pickup truck stopping
 to ask
 why we're by the road with an antenna)
 
 Bob-
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
 On
 Behalf Of Lawrence E. Bakst
 Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 5:50 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle
 
 Technically speaking you're wrong. The highest gain area of a sector
 antenna
 is the center point between the horizontal and vertical spreads. If
 you
 don't downtilt you are sending the strongest part of the signal
 parallel to
 the horizon. Why would you ever want to do that? The whole reason you
 downtilt is to get the strongest signal pointed to the area you want.
 
 Figuring this out takes some basic trig calcs using the tangent
 function.
 
 No one has asked the most important questions you need to know when
 calculating downtilt:
 
 1. How high up is the sector antenna?
 
 2. How far out or in what range near to far do you want the sweet
 spot?
 
 3. How close in to the tower do you need service?
 
 #2 and #3 can conflict with each other and you may have to make a
 tradeoff.
 
 leb
 
 At 2:22 PM -0400 3/29/10, Faisal Imtiaz wrote:
 . Technically speaking.. if you are not concerned about dealing
 with
 'near' customers less than 1 or 2 miles... then you can pretty
 much
 leave the sectors at '0' tilt.. and you have coverage to the
 horizon
 
 The built-in electrical down-tilt typically throws folks off..
 only
 becomes a factor if you are needing to down tilt for near customers..
 
 Faisal.
 
 On 3/29/2010 1:36 PM, Robert West wrote:
 I'm having a heck of a time with the large UBNT sectors getting the
 tilt
 angle to jive.  With the smaller sectors, they behave perfectly and
 go
 right
 where the calculations say they will however, with the larger ones,
 nothing
 I do other than have someone 10 miles out with a CPE check levels
 while
 I
 tilt up and down seems to be good.  I REALLY don't want to have to
 do
 that
 with all of them...
 
 
 
 Anyone having any success or insight with the proper tilt of these
 things?
 Using the 120 degree 5GHz flavors.
 
 
 
 Thanks!
 
 
 
 Robert West
 
 Just Micro Digital Services Inc.
 
 740-335-7020
 
 
 
 Logo5
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 --
 --
 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org

Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

2010-03-31 Thread Mark McElvy
So its just something that is there with no adjustment?

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Greg Ihnen
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 7:45 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

It projects a cone instead of a disc.

Greg

On Mar 31, 2010, at 7:56 AM, Mark McElvy wrote:

 Ok, dumb question time. How does electrical downtilt work on an omni?
 
 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
On
 Behalf Of Josh Luthman
 Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 9:50 PM
 To: sarn...@info-ed.com; WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle
 
 Electrical down tilt helps for that kind of installation.
 
 On 3/30/10, Scottie Arnett sarn...@info-ed.com wrote:
 As a rule of thumb, as the dB gets higher(or smaller in negative
 speak) in
 an antenna, the beam width of the opposing polarity of the antenna
 gets
 smaller, and thus harder to work with.
 
 As an example, I have used 15dB Omni's in 2.4Ghz(I'll leave the brand
 unannounced). I first put them about 60 feet in the air and found
that
 I
 could not get a good usable signal unless I was about 2 miles or so
 from the
 tower. I dropped them to 20 - 25 feet and picked up clients within
.25
 miles
 out to a couple of miles. The horizontal beam width on the Omni was
so
 small, I was way overshooting my intended target.
 
 Lesson learned was to always look at both vert and horiz beam width,
 and
 lesson learned on the 15dB Omni is to only use in trailer parks, very
 small
 subdivisions, and RV parks... and ... to not mount it above 30 feet
 high.
 
 Scottie
 
 -- Original Message --
 From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com
 Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Date:  Mon, 29 Mar 2010 18:41:21 -0400
 
 Well, I've been setting up a service contract with my friends on
 planet
 Wispalon so I need to find the proper tilt angle to beam the signal
 into
 space.  :)
 
 Yeah, I've been mindful to stay off the horizon, seems wasteful in a
 big
 way.  I'm not a trig scholar so I use basic tilt angle calculators
 which
 have never failed me but these things have me upside down.  Tower
 height,
 distance desired and all are good to have but I was really
interested
 in
 others experiences with them and how they have been able to get
their
 angles.  Again, the smaller, lower gain sectors have been right on
the
 money
 but I wasn't aware (ignorant) that these high gain units would give
me
 a
 smaller slice to work with.  On the advice of another member I have
 been
 trying one AP with 4 120 degree 19dbi sectors used as 90's.  Signal
is
 great
 where we can see it, just needed a good fix for not having to do the
2
 man
 show all over the county.  (With everyone in a pickup truck stopping
 to ask
 why we're by the road with an antenna)
 
 Bob-
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
 On
 Behalf Of Lawrence E. Bakst
 Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 5:50 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle
 
 Technically speaking you're wrong. The highest gain area of a sector
 antenna
 is the center point between the horizontal and vertical spreads. If
 you
 don't downtilt you are sending the strongest part of the signal
 parallel to
 the horizon. Why would you ever want to do that? The whole reason
you
 downtilt is to get the strongest signal pointed to the area you
want.
 
 Figuring this out takes some basic trig calcs using the tangent
 function.
 
 No one has asked the most important questions you need to know when
 calculating downtilt:
 
 1. How high up is the sector antenna?
 
 2. How far out or in what range near to far do you want the sweet
 spot?
 
 3. How close in to the tower do you need service?
 
 #2 and #3 can conflict with each other and you may have to make a
 tradeoff.
 
 leb
 
 At 2:22 PM -0400 3/29/10, Faisal Imtiaz wrote:
 . Technically speaking.. if you are not concerned about dealing
 with
 'near' customers less than 1 or 2 miles... then you can pretty
 much
 leave the sectors at '0' tilt.. and you have coverage to the
 horizon
 
 The built-in electrical down-tilt typically throws folks off..
 only
 becomes a factor if you are needing to down tilt for near
customers..
 
 Faisal.
 
 On 3/29/2010 1:36 PM, Robert West wrote:
 I'm having a heck of a time with the large UBNT sectors getting
the
 tilt
 angle to jive.  With the smaller sectors, they behave perfectly
and
 go
 right
 where the calculations say they will however, with the larger
ones,
 nothing
 I do other than have someone 10 miles out with a CPE check levels
 while
 I
 tilt up and down seems to be good.  I REALLY don't want to have to
 do
 that
 with all of them...
 
 
 
 Anyone having any success or insight with the proper tilt of these
 things?
 Using the 120 degree 5GHz flavors

Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

2010-03-31 Thread Chuck Bartosch
Not so dumb. But a simple Google search for electrical downtilt results in:

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=145707page=11

The first result. Gives a simple, clear answer as far as I read it.

Chuck

On Mar 31, 2010, at 8:26 AM, Mark McElvy wrote:

 Ok, dumb question time. How does electrical downtilt work on an omni?
 
 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Josh Luthman
 Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 9:50 PM
 To: sarn...@info-ed.com; WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle
 
 Electrical down tilt helps for that kind of installation.
 
 On 3/30/10, Scottie Arnett sarn...@info-ed.com wrote:
 As a rule of thumb, as the dB gets higher(or smaller in negative
 speak) in
 an antenna, the beam width of the opposing polarity of the antenna
 gets
 smaller, and thus harder to work with.
 
 As an example, I have used 15dB Omni's in 2.4Ghz(I'll leave the brand
 unannounced). I first put them about 60 feet in the air and found that
 I
 could not get a good usable signal unless I was about 2 miles or so
 from the
 tower. I dropped them to 20 - 25 feet and picked up clients within .25
 miles
 out to a couple of miles. The horizontal beam width on the Omni was so
 small, I was way overshooting my intended target.
 
 Lesson learned was to always look at both vert and horiz beam width,
 and
 lesson learned on the 15dB Omni is to only use in trailer parks, very
 small
 subdivisions, and RV parks... and ... to not mount it above 30 feet
 high.
 
 Scottie
 
 -- Original Message --
 From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com
 Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Date:  Mon, 29 Mar 2010 18:41:21 -0400
 
 Well, I've been setting up a service contract with my friends on
 planet
 Wispalon so I need to find the proper tilt angle to beam the signal
 into
 space.  :)
 
 Yeah, I've been mindful to stay off the horizon, seems wasteful in a
 big
 way.  I'm not a trig scholar so I use basic tilt angle calculators
 which
 have never failed me but these things have me upside down.  Tower
 height,
 distance desired and all are good to have but I was really interested
 in
 others experiences with them and how they have been able to get their
 angles.  Again, the smaller, lower gain sectors have been right on the
 money
 but I wasn't aware (ignorant) that these high gain units would give me
 a
 smaller slice to work with.  On the advice of another member I have
 been
 trying one AP with 4 120 degree 19dbi sectors used as 90's.  Signal is
 great
 where we can see it, just needed a good fix for not having to do the 2
 man
 show all over the county.  (With everyone in a pickup truck stopping
 to ask
 why we're by the road with an antenna)
 
 Bob-
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
 On
 Behalf Of Lawrence E. Bakst
 Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 5:50 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle
 
 Technically speaking you're wrong. The highest gain area of a sector
 antenna
 is the center point between the horizontal and vertical spreads. If
 you
 don't downtilt you are sending the strongest part of the signal
 parallel to
 the horizon. Why would you ever want to do that? The whole reason you
 downtilt is to get the strongest signal pointed to the area you want.
 
 Figuring this out takes some basic trig calcs using the tangent
 function.
 
 No one has asked the most important questions you need to know when
 calculating downtilt:
 
 1. How high up is the sector antenna?
 
 2. How far out or in what range near to far do you want the sweet
 spot?
 
 3. How close in to the tower do you need service?
 
 #2 and #3 can conflict with each other and you may have to make a
 tradeoff.
 
 leb
 
 At 2:22 PM -0400 3/29/10, Faisal Imtiaz wrote:
 . Technically speaking.. if you are not concerned about dealing
 with
 'near' customers less than 1 or 2 miles... then you can pretty
 much
 leave the sectors at '0' tilt.. and you have coverage to the
 horizon
 
 The built-in electrical down-tilt typically throws folks off..
 only
 becomes a factor if you are needing to down tilt for near customers..
 
 Faisal.
 
 On 3/29/2010 1:36 PM, Robert West wrote:
 I'm having a heck of a time with the large UBNT sectors getting the
 tilt
 angle to jive.  With the smaller sectors, they behave perfectly and
 go
 right
 where the calculations say they will however, with the larger ones,
 nothing
 I do other than have someone 10 miles out with a CPE check levels
 while
 I
 tilt up and down seems to be good.  I REALLY don't want to have to
 do
 that
 with all of them...
 
 
 
 Anyone having any success or insight with the proper tilt of these
 things?
 Using the 120 degree 5GHz flavors.
 
 
 
 Thanks!
 
 
 
 Robert West
 
 Just Micro Digital Services Inc.
 
 740-335-7020
 
 
 
 Logo5

Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

2010-03-31 Thread Greg Ihnen
Correct, it is achieved by altering the phasing between the sections compared 
to a non-downtilt antenna. The sections that determine the phasing are a 
different length. It's a physical thing, not electronic.

Greg

On Mar 31, 2010, at 8:17 AM, Mark McElvy wrote:

 So its just something that is there with no adjustment?
 
 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Greg Ihnen
 Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 7:45 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle
 
 It projects a cone instead of a disc.
 
 Greg
 
 On Mar 31, 2010, at 7:56 AM, Mark McElvy wrote:
 
 Ok, dumb question time. How does electrical downtilt work on an omni?
 
 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
 On
 Behalf Of Josh Luthman
 Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 9:50 PM
 To: sarn...@info-ed.com; WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle
 
 Electrical down tilt helps for that kind of installation.
 
 On 3/30/10, Scottie Arnett sarn...@info-ed.com wrote:
 As a rule of thumb, as the dB gets higher(or smaller in negative
 speak) in
 an antenna, the beam width of the opposing polarity of the antenna
 gets
 smaller, and thus harder to work with.
 
 As an example, I have used 15dB Omni's in 2.4Ghz(I'll leave the brand
 unannounced). I first put them about 60 feet in the air and found
 that
 I
 could not get a good usable signal unless I was about 2 miles or so
 from the
 tower. I dropped them to 20 - 25 feet and picked up clients within
 .25
 miles
 out to a couple of miles. The horizontal beam width on the Omni was
 so
 small, I was way overshooting my intended target.
 
 Lesson learned was to always look at both vert and horiz beam width,
 and
 lesson learned on the 15dB Omni is to only use in trailer parks, very
 small
 subdivisions, and RV parks... and ... to not mount it above 30 feet
 high.
 
 Scottie
 
 -- Original Message --
 From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com
 Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Date:  Mon, 29 Mar 2010 18:41:21 -0400
 
 Well, I've been setting up a service contract with my friends on
 planet
 Wispalon so I need to find the proper tilt angle to beam the signal
 into
 space.  :)
 
 Yeah, I've been mindful to stay off the horizon, seems wasteful in a
 big
 way.  I'm not a trig scholar so I use basic tilt angle calculators
 which
 have never failed me but these things have me upside down.  Tower
 height,
 distance desired and all are good to have but I was really
 interested
 in
 others experiences with them and how they have been able to get
 their
 angles.  Again, the smaller, lower gain sectors have been right on
 the
 money
 but I wasn't aware (ignorant) that these high gain units would give
 me
 a
 smaller slice to work with.  On the advice of another member I have
 been
 trying one AP with 4 120 degree 19dbi sectors used as 90's.  Signal
 is
 great
 where we can see it, just needed a good fix for not having to do the
 2
 man
 show all over the county.  (With everyone in a pickup truck stopping
 to ask
 why we're by the road with an antenna)
 
 Bob-
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
 On
 Behalf Of Lawrence E. Bakst
 Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 5:50 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle
 
 Technically speaking you're wrong. The highest gain area of a sector
 antenna
 is the center point between the horizontal and vertical spreads. If
 you
 don't downtilt you are sending the strongest part of the signal
 parallel to
 the horizon. Why would you ever want to do that? The whole reason
 you
 downtilt is to get the strongest signal pointed to the area you
 want.
 
 Figuring this out takes some basic trig calcs using the tangent
 function.
 
 No one has asked the most important questions you need to know when
 calculating downtilt:
 
 1. How high up is the sector antenna?
 
 2. How far out or in what range near to far do you want the sweet
 spot?
 
 3. How close in to the tower do you need service?
 
 #2 and #3 can conflict with each other and you may have to make a
 tradeoff.
 
 leb
 
 At 2:22 PM -0400 3/29/10, Faisal Imtiaz wrote:
 . Technically speaking.. if you are not concerned about dealing
 with
 'near' customers less than 1 or 2 miles... then you can pretty
 much
 leave the sectors at '0' tilt.. and you have coverage to the
 horizon
 
 The built-in electrical down-tilt typically throws folks off..
 only
 becomes a factor if you are needing to down tilt for near
 customers..
 
 Faisal.
 
 On 3/29/2010 1:36 PM, Robert West wrote:
 I'm having a heck of a time with the large UBNT sectors getting
 the
 tilt
 angle to jive.  With the smaller sectors, they behave perfectly
 and
 go
 right
 where the calculations say they will however, with the larger
 ones,
 nothing

Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

2010-03-31 Thread Robert West
Electrically.

:)

Had to.


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Mark McElvy
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 8:26 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

Ok, dumb question time. How does electrical downtilt work on an omni?

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Josh Luthman
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 9:50 PM
To: sarn...@info-ed.com; WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

Electrical down tilt helps for that kind of installation.

On 3/30/10, Scottie Arnett sarn...@info-ed.com wrote:
 As a rule of thumb, as the dB gets higher(or smaller in negative
speak) in
 an antenna, the beam width of the opposing polarity of the antenna
gets
 smaller, and thus harder to work with.

 As an example, I have used 15dB Omni's in 2.4Ghz(I'll leave the brand
 unannounced). I first put them about 60 feet in the air and found that
I
 could not get a good usable signal unless I was about 2 miles or so
from the
 tower. I dropped them to 20 - 25 feet and picked up clients within .25
miles
 out to a couple of miles. The horizontal beam width on the Omni was so
 small, I was way overshooting my intended target.

 Lesson learned was to always look at both vert and horiz beam width,
and
 lesson learned on the 15dB Omni is to only use in trailer parks, very
small
 subdivisions, and RV parks... and ... to not mount it above 30 feet
high.

 Scottie

 -- Original Message --
 From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com
 Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Date:  Mon, 29 Mar 2010 18:41:21 -0400

Well, I've been setting up a service contract with my friends on
planet
Wispalon so I need to find the proper tilt angle to beam the signal
into
space.  :)

Yeah, I've been mindful to stay off the horizon, seems wasteful in a
big
way.  I'm not a trig scholar so I use basic tilt angle calculators
which
have never failed me but these things have me upside down.  Tower
height,
distance desired and all are good to have but I was really interested
in
others experiences with them and how they have been able to get their
angles.  Again, the smaller, lower gain sectors have been right on the
 money
but I wasn't aware (ignorant) that these high gain units would give me
a
smaller slice to work with.  On the advice of another member I have
been
trying one AP with 4 120 degree 19dbi sectors used as 90's.  Signal is
 great
where we can see it, just needed a good fix for not having to do the 2
man
show all over the county.  (With everyone in a pickup truck stopping
to ask
why we're by the road with an antenna)

Bob-


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
On
Behalf Of Lawrence E. Bakst
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 5:50 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

Technically speaking you're wrong. The highest gain area of a sector
 antenna
is the center point between the horizontal and vertical spreads. If
you
don't downtilt you are sending the strongest part of the signal
parallel to
the horizon. Why would you ever want to do that? The whole reason you
downtilt is to get the strongest signal pointed to the area you want.

Figuring this out takes some basic trig calcs using the tangent
function.

No one has asked the most important questions you need to know when
calculating downtilt:

1. How high up is the sector antenna?

2. How far out or in what range near to far do you want the sweet
spot?

3. How close in to the tower do you need service?

#2 and #3 can conflict with each other and you may have to make a
tradeoff.

leb

At 2:22 PM -0400 3/29/10, Faisal Imtiaz wrote:
. Technically speaking.. if you are not concerned about dealing
with
'near' customers less than 1 or 2 miles... then you can pretty
much
leave the sectors at '0' tilt.. and you have coverage to the
horizon

The built-in electrical down-tilt typically throws folks off..
only
becomes a factor if you are needing to down tilt for near customers..

Faisal.

On 3/29/2010 1:36 PM, Robert West wrote:
 I'm having a heck of a time with the large UBNT sectors getting the
tilt
 angle to jive.  With the smaller sectors, they behave perfectly and
go
right
 where the calculations say they will however, with the larger ones,
nothing
 I do other than have someone 10 miles out with a CPE check levels
while
 I
 tilt up and down seems to be good.  I REALLY don't want to have to
do
that
 with all of them...



 Anyone having any success or insight with the proper tilt of these
things?
 Using the 120 degree 5GHz flavors.



 Thanks!



 Robert West

 Just Micro Digital Services Inc.

 740-335-7020



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 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org

Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

2010-03-30 Thread D. Ryan Spott
really good TV reception

It tells them something so they get less interested and leave you alone.

ryan



On Mar 29, 2010, at 8:25 PM, Mike Mattox wi...@mcmsys.com wrote:

 SSSH,  aliens


 Signal is great
 where we can see it, just needed a good fix for not having to do  
 the 2 man
 show all over the county.  (With everyone in a pickup truck  
 stopping to
 ask
 why we're by the road with an antenna)




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Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

2010-03-30 Thread Cameron Crum
I prefer to reference to magnetic north. Makes it easier for my guys in 
the field to align things and I don't have to go into a training session 
on geo-magnetics.

Cameron

On 3/29/2010 2:42 PM, Ryan Spott wrote:
 And don't do what I did for the first AP install I ever did.

 Mount the antenna to face exactly north.. Compass says north is
 that-a-way..

 OK.. then test..

 Wait.. how come I have no signal here?!?!

 Over a beer I complain to my surveyor friend who reminds me about that whole
 Magnetic vs true North thing!! :) Yeah, 18* declination here.

 ryan

 On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 10:59 AM, Forbes Mercyforbes.me...@wabroadband.com

 wrote:
  

 We have a lot of those sectors out and some of the lessons we learned
 were: 1) The higher the DB the less downward/upward range it covers, 2)
 same for 90's versus 120's, the 120's have a lot wider downward coverage
 than the 90's.  Its hard on us because all of our towers are are on
 steep hills overlooking the valley so yeah you have to work hard once in
 a while to find the sweet spot.

 Forbes

 On 3/29/2010 10:36 AM, Robert West wrote:
  
 I'm having a heck of a time with the large UBNT sectors getting the tilt
 angle to jive.  With the smaller sectors, they behave perfectly and go

 right
  
 where the calculations say they will however, with the larger ones,

 nothing
  
 I do other than have someone 10 miles out with a CPE check levels while I
 tilt up and down seems to be good.  I REALLY don't want to have to do

 that
  
 with all of them...



 Anyone having any success or insight with the proper tilt of these

 things?
  
 Using the 120 degree 5GHz flavors.



 Thanks!



 Robert West

 Just Micro Digital Services Inc.

 740-335-7020



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Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

2010-03-30 Thread Scottie Arnett
As a rule of thumb, as the dB gets higher(or smaller in negative speak) in an 
antenna, the beam width of the opposing polarity of the antenna gets smaller, 
and thus harder to work with.

As an example, I have used 15dB Omni's in 2.4Ghz(I'll leave the brand 
unannounced). I first put them about 60 feet in the air and found that I could 
not get a good usable signal unless I was about 2 miles or so from the tower. I 
dropped them to 20 - 25 feet and picked up clients within .25 miles out to a 
couple of miles. The horizontal beam width on the Omni was so small, I was way 
overshooting my intended target.

Lesson learned was to always look at both vert and horiz beam width, and lesson 
learned on the 15dB Omni is to only use in trailer parks, very small 
subdivisions, and RV parks... and ... to not mount it above 30 feet high.

Scottie

-- Original Message --
From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com
Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Date:  Mon, 29 Mar 2010 18:41:21 -0400

Well, I've been setting up a service contract with my friends on planet
Wispalon so I need to find the proper tilt angle to beam the signal into
space.  :)

Yeah, I've been mindful to stay off the horizon, seems wasteful in a big
way.  I'm not a trig scholar so I use basic tilt angle calculators which
have never failed me but these things have me upside down.  Tower height,
distance desired and all are good to have but I was really interested in
others experiences with them and how they have been able to get their
angles.  Again, the smaller, lower gain sectors have been right on the money
but I wasn't aware (ignorant) that these high gain units would give me a
smaller slice to work with.  On the advice of another member I have been
trying one AP with 4 120 degree 19dbi sectors used as 90's.  Signal is great
where we can see it, just needed a good fix for not having to do the 2 man
show all over the county.  (With everyone in a pickup truck stopping to ask
why we're by the road with an antenna)  

Bob-


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Lawrence E. Bakst
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 5:50 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

Technically speaking you're wrong. The highest gain area of a sector antenna
is the center point between the horizontal and vertical spreads. If you
don't downtilt you are sending the strongest part of the signal parallel to
the horizon. Why would you ever want to do that? The whole reason you
downtilt is to get the strongest signal pointed to the area you want.

Figuring this out takes some basic trig calcs using the tangent function.

No one has asked the most important questions you need to know when
calculating downtilt:

1. How high up is the sector antenna?

2. How far out or in what range near to far do you want the sweet spot?

3. How close in to the tower do you need service?

#2 and #3 can conflict with each other and you may have to make a tradeoff.

leb

At 2:22 PM -0400 3/29/10, Faisal Imtiaz wrote:
. Technically speaking.. if you are not concerned about dealing with
'near' customers less than 1 or 2 miles... then you can pretty much
leave the sectors at '0' tilt.. and you have coverage to the horizon

The built-in electrical down-tilt typically throws folks off.. only
becomes a factor if you are needing to down tilt for near customers..

Faisal.

On 3/29/2010 1:36 PM, Robert West wrote:
 I'm having a heck of a time with the large UBNT sectors getting the tilt
 angle to jive.  With the smaller sectors, they behave perfectly and go
right
 where the calculations say they will however, with the larger ones,
nothing
 I do other than have someone 10 miles out with a CPE check levels while I
 tilt up and down seems to be good.  I REALLY don't want to have to do
that
 with all of them...



 Anyone having any success or insight with the proper tilt of these
things?
 Using the 120 degree 5GHz flavors.



 Thanks!



 Robert West

 Just Micro Digital Services Inc.

 740-335-7020



 Logo5




   







 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/




 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

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-- 
l...@iridescent.org

Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

2010-03-30 Thread Josh Luthman
Electrical down tilt helps for that kind of installation.

On 3/30/10, Scottie Arnett sarn...@info-ed.com wrote:
 As a rule of thumb, as the dB gets higher(or smaller in negative speak) in
 an antenna, the beam width of the opposing polarity of the antenna gets
 smaller, and thus harder to work with.

 As an example, I have used 15dB Omni's in 2.4Ghz(I'll leave the brand
 unannounced). I first put them about 60 feet in the air and found that I
 could not get a good usable signal unless I was about 2 miles or so from the
 tower. I dropped them to 20 - 25 feet and picked up clients within .25 miles
 out to a couple of miles. The horizontal beam width on the Omni was so
 small, I was way overshooting my intended target.

 Lesson learned was to always look at both vert and horiz beam width, and
 lesson learned on the 15dB Omni is to only use in trailer parks, very small
 subdivisions, and RV parks... and ... to not mount it above 30 feet high.

 Scottie

 -- Original Message --
 From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com
 Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Date:  Mon, 29 Mar 2010 18:41:21 -0400

Well, I've been setting up a service contract with my friends on planet
Wispalon so I need to find the proper tilt angle to beam the signal into
space.  :)

Yeah, I've been mindful to stay off the horizon, seems wasteful in a big
way.  I'm not a trig scholar so I use basic tilt angle calculators which
have never failed me but these things have me upside down.  Tower height,
distance desired and all are good to have but I was really interested in
others experiences with them and how they have been able to get their
angles.  Again, the smaller, lower gain sectors have been right on the
 money
but I wasn't aware (ignorant) that these high gain units would give me a
smaller slice to work with.  On the advice of another member I have been
trying one AP with 4 120 degree 19dbi sectors used as 90's.  Signal is
 great
where we can see it, just needed a good fix for not having to do the 2 man
show all over the county.  (With everyone in a pickup truck stopping to ask
why we're by the road with an antenna)

Bob-


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Lawrence E. Bakst
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 5:50 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

Technically speaking you're wrong. The highest gain area of a sector
 antenna
is the center point between the horizontal and vertical spreads. If you
don't downtilt you are sending the strongest part of the signal parallel to
the horizon. Why would you ever want to do that? The whole reason you
downtilt is to get the strongest signal pointed to the area you want.

Figuring this out takes some basic trig calcs using the tangent function.

No one has asked the most important questions you need to know when
calculating downtilt:

1. How high up is the sector antenna?

2. How far out or in what range near to far do you want the sweet spot?

3. How close in to the tower do you need service?

#2 and #3 can conflict with each other and you may have to make a tradeoff.

leb

At 2:22 PM -0400 3/29/10, Faisal Imtiaz wrote:
. Technically speaking.. if you are not concerned about dealing with
'near' customers less than 1 or 2 miles... then you can pretty much
leave the sectors at '0' tilt.. and you have coverage to the horizon

The built-in electrical down-tilt typically throws folks off.. only
becomes a factor if you are needing to down tilt for near customers..

Faisal.

On 3/29/2010 1:36 PM, Robert West wrote:
 I'm having a heck of a time with the large UBNT sectors getting the tilt
 angle to jive.  With the smaller sectors, they behave perfectly and go
right
 where the calculations say they will however, with the larger ones,
nothing
 I do other than have someone 10 miles out with a CPE check levels while
 I
 tilt up and down seems to be good.  I REALLY don't want to have to do
that
 with all of them...



 Anyone having any success or insight with the proper tilt of these
things?
 Using the 120 degree 5GHz flavors.



 Thanks!



 Robert West

 Just Micro Digital Services Inc.

 740-335-7020



 Logo5












 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/




 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

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Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

2010-03-29 Thread Mike Hammett
I was told to not tilt them, to leave them flat.  They have a built in 
electrical downtilt.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 12:36 PM
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Subject: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

 I'm having a heck of a time with the large UBNT sectors getting the tilt
 angle to jive.  With the smaller sectors, they behave perfectly and go 
 right
 where the calculations say they will however, with the larger ones, 
 nothing
 I do other than have someone 10 miles out with a CPE check levels while I
 tilt up and down seems to be good.  I REALLY don't want to have to do that
 with all of them...



 Anyone having any success or insight with the proper tilt of these things?
 Using the 120 degree 5GHz flavors.



 Thanks!



 Robert West

 Just Micro Digital Services Inc.

 740-335-7020



 Logo5









 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 

 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

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Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

2010-03-29 Thread Jerry Richardson
I couldn't use the markings as I was on a tower with sloped legs so I used an 
app on my iPhone. 

This would take the guesswork out (if you don't already have one):
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?oe=UTF-8gfns=1q=angle+meterum=1ie=UTF-8cid=809291610433363299ei=0OiwS8zgNpHSsgOpruTjDQsa=Xoi=product_catalog_resultct=resultresnum=1ved=0CB8Q8wIwAA#ps-sellers



-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf 
Of Robert West
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 10:37 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

I'm having a heck of a time with the large UBNT sectors getting the tilt angle 
to jive.  With the smaller sectors, they behave perfectly and go right where 
the calculations say they will however, with the larger ones, nothing I do 
other than have someone 10 miles out with a CPE check levels while I tilt up 
and down seems to be good.  I REALLY don't want to have to do that with all of 
them...



Anyone having any success or insight with the proper tilt of these things?
Using the 120 degree 5GHz flavors.



Thanks!



Robert West

Just Micro Digital Services Inc.

740-335-7020



Logo5






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Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

2010-03-29 Thread Tom Sharples
Main problem is that to get a 120 degree pattern with 16 db of gain you have 
to have a razor-thin vertical arpeture (around 6 degrees). So you're 
probably going to have to use the two-man method you're describing to get 
optimum results, or use a lower-gain antenna.

Tom S.

- Original Message - 
From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 10:36 AM
Subject: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle


 I'm having a heck of a time with the large UBNT sectors getting the tilt
 angle to jive.  With the smaller sectors, they behave perfectly and go 
 right
 where the calculations say they will however, with the larger ones, 
 nothing
 I do other than have someone 10 miles out with a CPE check levels while I
 tilt up and down seems to be good.  I REALLY don't want to have to do that
 with all of them...



 Anyone having any success or insight with the proper tilt of these things?
 Using the 120 degree 5GHz flavors.



 Thanks!



 Robert West

 Just Micro Digital Services Inc.

 740-335-7020



 Logo5











 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 

 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

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Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

2010-03-29 Thread Forbes Mercy
We have a lot of those sectors out and some of the lessons we learned 
were: 1) The higher the DB the less downward/upward range it covers, 2) 
same for 90's versus 120's, the 120's have a lot wider downward coverage 
than the 90's.  Its hard on us because all of our towers are are on 
steep hills overlooking the valley so yeah you have to work hard once in 
a while to find the sweet spot.

Forbes

On 3/29/2010 10:36 AM, Robert West wrote:
 I'm having a heck of a time with the large UBNT sectors getting the tilt
 angle to jive.  With the smaller sectors, they behave perfectly and go right
 where the calculations say they will however, with the larger ones, nothing
 I do other than have someone 10 miles out with a CPE check levels while I
 tilt up and down seems to be good.  I REALLY don't want to have to do that
 with all of them...



 Anyone having any success or insight with the proper tilt of these things?
 Using the 120 degree 5GHz flavors.



 Thanks!



 Robert West

 Just Micro Digital Services Inc.

 740-335-7020



 Logo5









 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 

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Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

2010-03-29 Thread Robert West
True.  They have a 2 degree down tilt.  The adjuster goes to a negative 3
degrees but I've tried it flat, or zero on the adjuster leaving the 2 degree
electrical tilt, but I'm not getting any decent signal after about a mile.
My calculations say -1 degree, still no good.  On one AP we've tried the Go
out 5 miles and call me method  Works but no two on the AP are at the
same tilt even though the ground elevations are the same.  But those smaller
sectors are always right on the money

Bob-


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 1:52 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

I was told to not tilt them, to leave them flat.  They have a built in 
electrical downtilt.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 12:36 PM
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Subject: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

 I'm having a heck of a time with the large UBNT sectors getting the tilt
 angle to jive.  With the smaller sectors, they behave perfectly and go 
 right
 where the calculations say they will however, with the larger ones, 
 nothing
 I do other than have someone 10 miles out with a CPE check levels while I
 tilt up and down seems to be good.  I REALLY don't want to have to do that
 with all of them...



 Anyone having any success or insight with the proper tilt of these things?
 Using the 120 degree 5GHz flavors.



 Thanks!



 Robert West

 Just Micro Digital Services Inc.

 740-335-7020



 Logo5












 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/




 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

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Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

2010-03-29 Thread Robert West
I hear ya.  Don't want to have to do that all the time but from what I'm
seeing, we just may have to.

Bob-


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Tom Sharples
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 1:57 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

Main problem is that to get a 120 degree pattern with 16 db of gain you have

to have a razor-thin vertical arpeture (around 6 degrees). So you're 
probably going to have to use the two-man method you're describing to get 
optimum results, or use a lower-gain antenna.

Tom S.

- Original Message - 
From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 10:36 AM
Subject: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle


 I'm having a heck of a time with the large UBNT sectors getting the tilt
 angle to jive.  With the smaller sectors, they behave perfectly and go 
 right
 where the calculations say they will however, with the larger ones, 
 nothing
 I do other than have someone 10 miles out with a CPE check levels while I
 tilt up and down seems to be good.  I REALLY don't want to have to do that
 with all of them...



 Anyone having any success or insight with the proper tilt of these things?
 Using the 120 degree 5GHz flavors.



 Thanks!



 Robert West

 Just Micro Digital Services Inc.

 740-335-7020



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Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

2010-03-29 Thread Faisal Imtiaz
. Technically speaking.. if you are not concerned about dealing with 
'near' customers less than 1 or 2 miles... then you can pretty much 
leave the sectors at '0' tilt.. and you have coverage to the horizon

The built-in electrical down-tilt typically throws folks off.. only 
becomes a factor if you are needing to down tilt for near customers..

Faisal.

On 3/29/2010 1:36 PM, Robert West wrote:
 I'm having a heck of a time with the large UBNT sectors getting the tilt
 angle to jive.  With the smaller sectors, they behave perfectly and go right
 where the calculations say they will however, with the larger ones, nothing
 I do other than have someone 10 miles out with a CPE check levels while I
 tilt up and down seems to be good.  I REALLY don't want to have to do that
 with all of them...



 Anyone having any success or insight with the proper tilt of these things?
 Using the 120 degree 5GHz flavors.



 Thanks!



 Robert West

 Just Micro Digital Services Inc.

 740-335-7020



 Logo5









 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 

 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

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Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

2010-03-29 Thread Robert West
I was compensating for the electrical tilt but just one degree was throwing
it way, way off.  Trying to get a usable signal 15 miles out, maybe less,
and that slightest fraction of a degree would change it considerably.  But
after reading Tom and Mercy's posts it's all making sense to me...
A little more work.

Bob-


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Faisal Imtiaz
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 2:22 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

. Technically speaking.. if you are not concerned about dealing with 
'near' customers less than 1 or 2 miles... then you can pretty much 
leave the sectors at '0' tilt.. and you have coverage to the horizon

The built-in electrical down-tilt typically throws folks off.. only 
becomes a factor if you are needing to down tilt for near customers..

Faisal.

On 3/29/2010 1:36 PM, Robert West wrote:
 I'm having a heck of a time with the large UBNT sectors getting the tilt
 angle to jive.  With the smaller sectors, they behave perfectly and go
right
 where the calculations say they will however, with the larger ones,
nothing
 I do other than have someone 10 miles out with a CPE check levels while I
 tilt up and down seems to be good.  I REALLY don't want to have to do that
 with all of them...



 Anyone having any success or insight with the proper tilt of these things?
 Using the 120 degree 5GHz flavors.



 Thanks!



 Robert West

 Just Micro Digital Services Inc.

 740-335-7020



 Logo5












 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/




 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

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 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

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Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

2010-03-29 Thread Mike Hammett
I wouldn't even try to get a signal 15 miles away on a 120.  :-p


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 1:29 PM
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

 I was compensating for the electrical tilt but just one degree was 
 throwing
 it way, way off.  Trying to get a usable signal 15 miles out, maybe less,
 and that slightest fraction of a degree would change it considerably.  But
 after reading Tom and Mercy's posts it's all making sense to me...
 A little more work.

 Bob-


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Faisal Imtiaz
 Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 2:22 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

 . Technically speaking.. if you are not concerned about dealing with
 'near' customers less than 1 or 2 miles... then you can pretty much
 leave the sectors at '0' tilt.. and you have coverage to the horizon

 The built-in electrical down-tilt typically throws folks off.. only
 becomes a factor if you are needing to down tilt for near customers..

 Faisal.

 On 3/29/2010 1:36 PM, Robert West wrote:
 I'm having a heck of a time with the large UBNT sectors getting the tilt
 angle to jive.  With the smaller sectors, they behave perfectly and go
 right
 where the calculations say they will however, with the larger ones,
 nothing
 I do other than have someone 10 miles out with a CPE check levels while I
 tilt up and down seems to be good.  I REALLY don't want to have to do 
 that
 with all of them...



 Anyone having any success or insight with the proper tilt of these 
 things?
 Using the 120 degree 5GHz flavors.



 Thanks!



 Robert West

 Just Micro Digital Services Inc.

 740-335-7020



 Logo5










 
 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/

 
 

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Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

2010-03-29 Thread Stuart Pierce
Signal with what though ? A 30db Rocketdish setup I can get 17 miles out and 
the link profile has fresnel in the ground. 

120* 16dbi sector with Rocket to 30dbi dish Rocket. Course I didn't leave it 
there, I instead connected to another 5ghz Bullet5 on a 120* Maxrad and fresnel 
is still in the ground but Rocket reports 29megs. The heavy rains here recently 
haven't hurt it's 1500 byte pings at all either, so I'm impressed.

-- Original Message --
From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net
Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Date:  Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:53:32 -0500

I wouldn't even try to get a signal 15 miles away on a 120.  :-p


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 1:29 PM
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

 I was compensating for the electrical tilt but just one degree was 
 throwing
 it way, way off.  Trying to get a usable signal 15 miles out, maybe less,
 and that slightest fraction of a degree would change it considerably.  But
 after reading Tom and Mercy's posts it's all making sense to me...
 A little more work.

 Bob-


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Faisal Imtiaz
 Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 2:22 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

 . Technically speaking.. if you are not concerned about dealing with
 'near' customers less than 1 or 2 miles... then you can pretty much
 leave the sectors at '0' tilt.. and you have coverage to the horizon

 The built-in electrical down-tilt typically throws folks off.. only
 becomes a factor if you are needing to down tilt for near customers..

 Faisal.

 On 3/29/2010 1:36 PM, Robert West wrote:
 I'm having a heck of a time with the large UBNT sectors getting the tilt
 angle to jive.  With the smaller sectors, they behave perfectly and go
 right
 where the calculations say they will however, with the larger ones,
 nothing
 I do other than have someone 10 miles out with a CPE check levels while I
 tilt up and down seems to be good.  I REALLY don't want to have to do 
 that
 with all of them...



 Anyone having any success or insight with the proper tilt of these 
 things?
 Using the 120 degree 5GHz flavors.



 Thanks!



 Robert West

 Just Micro Digital Services Inc.

 740-335-7020



 Logo5










 
 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/

 
 

 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

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 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/


 
 
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Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

2010-03-29 Thread Mike Hammett
Well yes, a 30 dB dish would be fine.  Most people don't use them as CPE.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: Stuart Pierce spie...@avolve.net
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 4:33 PM
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

 Signal with what though ? A 30db Rocketdish setup I can get 17 miles out 
 and the link profile has fresnel in the ground.

 120* 16dbi sector with Rocket to 30dbi dish Rocket. Course I didn't leave 
 it there, I instead connected to another 5ghz Bullet5 on a 120* Maxrad and 
 fresnel is still in the ground but Rocket reports 29megs. The heavy rains 
 here recently haven't hurt it's 1500 byte pings at all either, so I'm 
 impressed.

 -- Original Message --
 From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net
 Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Date:  Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:53:32 -0500

I wouldn't even try to get a signal 15 miles away on a 120.  :-p


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 1:29 PM
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

 I was compensating for the electrical tilt but just one degree was
 throwing
 it way, way off.  Trying to get a usable signal 15 miles out, maybe 
 less,
 and that slightest fraction of a degree would change it considerably. 
 But
 after reading Tom and Mercy's posts it's all making sense to 
 me...
 A little more work.

 Bob-


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Faisal Imtiaz
 Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 2:22 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

 . Technically speaking.. if you are not concerned about dealing with
 'near' customers less than 1 or 2 miles... then you can pretty much
 leave the sectors at '0' tilt.. and you have coverage to the horizon

 The built-in electrical down-tilt typically throws folks off.. only
 becomes a factor if you are needing to down tilt for near customers..

 Faisal.

 On 3/29/2010 1:36 PM, Robert West wrote:
 I'm having a heck of a time with the large UBNT sectors getting the 
 tilt
 angle to jive.  With the smaller sectors, they behave perfectly and go
 right
 where the calculations say they will however, with the larger ones,
 nothing
 I do other than have someone 10 miles out with a CPE check levels while 
 I
 tilt up and down seems to be good.  I REALLY don't want to have to do
 that
 with all of them...



 Anyone having any success or insight with the proper tilt of these
 things?
 Using the 120 degree 5GHz flavors.



 Thanks!



 Robert West

 Just Micro Digital Services Inc.

 740-335-7020



 Logo5










 
 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/

 
 

 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

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 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/


 
 
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Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

2010-03-29 Thread Ryan Spott
And don't do what I did for the first AP install I ever did.

Mount the antenna to face exactly north.. Compass says north is
that-a-way..

OK.. then test..

Wait.. how come I have no signal here?!?!

Over a beer I complain to my surveyor friend who reminds me about that whole
Magnetic vs true North thing!! :) Yeah, 18* declination here.

ryan

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 10:59 AM, Forbes Mercy forbes.me...@wabroadband.com
 wrote:

 We have a lot of those sectors out and some of the lessons we learned
 were: 1) The higher the DB the less downward/upward range it covers, 2)
 same for 90's versus 120's, the 120's have a lot wider downward coverage
 than the 90's.  Its hard on us because all of our towers are are on
 steep hills overlooking the valley so yeah you have to work hard once in
 a while to find the sweet spot.

 Forbes

 On 3/29/2010 10:36 AM, Robert West wrote:
  I'm having a heck of a time with the large UBNT sectors getting the tilt
  angle to jive.  With the smaller sectors, they behave perfectly and go
 right
  where the calculations say they will however, with the larger ones,
 nothing
  I do other than have someone 10 miles out with a CPE check levels while I
  tilt up and down seems to be good.  I REALLY don't want to have to do
 that
  with all of them...
 
 
 
  Anyone having any success or insight with the proper tilt of these
 things?
  Using the 120 degree 5GHz flavors.
 
 
 
  Thanks!
 
 
 
  Robert West
 
  Just Micro Digital Services Inc.
 
  740-335-7020
 
 
 
  Logo5
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  WISPA Wants You! Join today!
  http://signup.wispa.org/
 
 
 
  WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
 
  Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
  http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
 
  Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/




 
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Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

2010-03-29 Thread Stuart Pierce
True, most won't, unless they really, really want it. I've had one in the shop 
for the past couple of months and people walk in and ask what it's for. I say 
it's for a tower location for when the snow leaves us, but how about going on 
your house somewhere. No one has said that they wouldn't, it would look just as 
big as a sat dish would anyway.

-- Original Message --
From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net
Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Date:  Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:39:18 -0500

Well yes, a 30 dB dish would be fine.  Most people don't use them as CPE.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: Stuart Pierce spie...@avolve.net
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 4:33 PM
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

 Signal with what though ? A 30db Rocketdish setup I can get 17 miles out 
 and the link profile has fresnel in the ground.

 120* 16dbi sector with Rocket to 30dbi dish Rocket. Course I didn't leave 
 it there, I instead connected to another 5ghz Bullet5 on a 120* Maxrad and 
 fresnel is still in the ground but Rocket reports 29megs. The heavy rains 
 here recently haven't hurt it's 1500 byte pings at all either, so I'm 
 impressed.

 -- Original Message --
 From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net
 Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Date:  Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:53:32 -0500

I wouldn't even try to get a signal 15 miles away on a 120.  :-p


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 1:29 PM
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

 I was compensating for the electrical tilt but just one degree was
 throwing
 it way, way off.  Trying to get a usable signal 15 miles out, maybe 
 less,
 and that slightest fraction of a degree would change it considerably. 
 But
 after reading Tom and Mercy's posts it's all making sense to 
 me...
 A little more work.

 Bob-


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Faisal Imtiaz
 Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 2:22 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

 . Technically speaking.. if you are not concerned about dealing with
 'near' customers less than 1 or 2 miles... then you can pretty much
 leave the sectors at '0' tilt.. and you have coverage to the horizon

 The built-in electrical down-tilt typically throws folks off.. only
 becomes a factor if you are needing to down tilt for near customers..

 Faisal.

 On 3/29/2010 1:36 PM, Robert West wrote:
 I'm having a heck of a time with the large UBNT sectors getting the 
 tilt
 angle to jive.  With the smaller sectors, they behave perfectly and go
 right
 where the calculations say they will however, with the larger ones,
 nothing
 I do other than have someone 10 miles out with a CPE check levels while 
 I
 tilt up and down seems to be good.  I REALLY don't want to have to do
 that
 with all of them...



 Anyone having any success or insight with the proper tilt of these
 things?
 Using the 120 degree 5GHz flavors.



 Thanks!



 Robert West

 Just Micro Digital Services Inc.

 740-335-7020



 Logo5










 
 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/

 
 

 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/


 
 
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Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

2010-03-29 Thread Stuart Pierce
Beer made Bud, er Ryan, weiser.

-- Original Message --
From: Ryan Spott rsp...@cspott.com
Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Date:  Mon, 29 Mar 2010 13:42:37 -0700

And don't do what I did for the first AP install I ever did.

Mount the antenna to face exactly north.. Compass says north is
that-a-way..

OK.. then test..

Wait.. how come I have no signal here?!?!

Over a beer I complain to my surveyor friend who reminds me about that whole
Magnetic vs true North thing!! :) Yeah, 18* declination here.

ryan

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 10:59 AM, Forbes Mercy forbes.me...@wabroadband.com
 wrote:

 We have a lot of those sectors out and some of the lessons we learned
 were: 1) The higher the DB the less downward/upward range it covers, 2)
 same for 90's versus 120's, the 120's have a lot wider downward coverage
 than the 90's.  Its hard on us because all of our towers are are on
 steep hills overlooking the valley so yeah you have to work hard once in
 a while to find the sweet spot.

 Forbes

 On 3/29/2010 10:36 AM, Robert West wrote:
  I'm having a heck of a time with the large UBNT sectors getting the tilt
  angle to jive.  With the smaller sectors, they behave perfectly and go
 right
  where the calculations say they will however, with the larger ones,
 nothing
  I do other than have someone 10 miles out with a CPE check levels while I
  tilt up and down seems to be good.  I REALLY don't want to have to do
 that
  with all of them...
 
 
 
  Anyone having any success or insight with the proper tilt of these
 things?
  Using the 120 degree 5GHz flavors.
 
 
 
  Thanks!
 
 
 
  Robert West
 
  Just Micro Digital Services Inc.
 
  740-335-7020
 
 
 
  Logo5
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  WISPA Wants You! Join today!
  http://signup.wispa.org/
 
 
 
  WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
 
  Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
  http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
 
  Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/




 
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Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

2010-03-29 Thread Lawrence E. Bakst
Technically speaking you're wrong. The highest gain area of a sector antenna  
is the center point between the horizontal and vertical spreads. If you don't 
downtilt you are sending the strongest part of the signal parallel to the 
horizon. Why would you ever want to do that? The whole reason you downtilt is 
to get the strongest signal pointed to the area you want.

Figuring this out takes some basic trig calcs using the tangent function.

No one has asked the most important questions you need to know when calculating 
downtilt:

1. How high up is the sector antenna?

2. How far out or in what range near to far do you want the sweet spot?

3. How close in to the tower do you need service?

#2 and #3 can conflict with each other and you may have to make a tradeoff.

leb

At 2:22 PM -0400 3/29/10, Faisal Imtiaz wrote:
. Technically speaking.. if you are not concerned about dealing with
'near' customers less than 1 or 2 miles... then you can pretty much
leave the sectors at '0' tilt.. and you have coverage to the horizon

The built-in electrical down-tilt typically throws folks off.. only
becomes a factor if you are needing to down tilt for near customers..

Faisal.

On 3/29/2010 1:36 PM, Robert West wrote:
 I'm having a heck of a time with the large UBNT sectors getting the tilt
 angle to jive.  With the smaller sectors, they behave perfectly and go right
 where the calculations say they will however, with the larger ones, nothing
 I do other than have someone 10 miles out with a CPE check levels while I
 tilt up and down seems to be good.  I REALLY don't want to have to do that
 with all of them...



 Anyone having any success or insight with the proper tilt of these things?
 Using the 120 degree 5GHz flavors.



 Thanks!



 Robert West

 Just Micro Digital Services Inc.

 740-335-7020



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Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

2010-03-29 Thread Robert West
I have one where I'm hitting it at 12 miles with a -77 but the noise floor
hovers at around a -87 most of the time.  But that's using a 23dbi cpe.
Haven't tried the UBNT 27dbi there, may make it all good.  

Would 90's be a better choice?  I have only one AP using the smaller UBNT
90's but haven't tried the large 90's, only the 120's.  

Bob-


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 3:54 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

I wouldn't even try to get a signal 15 miles away on a 120.  :-p


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 1:29 PM
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

 I was compensating for the electrical tilt but just one degree was 
 throwing
 it way, way off.  Trying to get a usable signal 15 miles out, maybe less,
 and that slightest fraction of a degree would change it considerably.  But
 after reading Tom and Mercy's posts it's all making sense to me...
 A little more work.

 Bob-


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Faisal Imtiaz
 Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 2:22 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

 . Technically speaking.. if you are not concerned about dealing with
 'near' customers less than 1 or 2 miles... then you can pretty much
 leave the sectors at '0' tilt.. and you have coverage to the horizon

 The built-in electrical down-tilt typically throws folks off.. only
 becomes a factor if you are needing to down tilt for near customers..

 Faisal.

 On 3/29/2010 1:36 PM, Robert West wrote:
 I'm having a heck of a time with the large UBNT sectors getting the tilt
 angle to jive.  With the smaller sectors, they behave perfectly and go
 right
 where the calculations say they will however, with the larger ones,
 nothing
 I do other than have someone 10 miles out with a CPE check levels while I
 tilt up and down seems to be good.  I REALLY don't want to have to do 
 that
 with all of them...



 Anyone having any success or insight with the proper tilt of these 
 things?
 Using the 120 degree 5GHz flavors.



 Thanks!



 Robert West

 Just Micro Digital Services Inc.

 740-335-7020



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Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

2010-03-29 Thread Robert West
Same type of results here with the smaller sectors but these larger ones
just aren't as user friendly.  Just gotta get over my learning curve with
them.

Bob-



-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Stuart Pierce
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 5:33 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

Signal with what though ? A 30db Rocketdish setup I can get 17 miles out and
the link profile has fresnel in the ground. 

120* 16dbi sector with Rocket to 30dbi dish Rocket. Course I didn't leave it
there, I instead connected to another 5ghz Bullet5 on a 120* Maxrad and
fresnel is still in the ground but Rocket reports 29megs. The heavy rains
here recently haven't hurt it's 1500 byte pings at all either, so I'm
impressed.

-- Original Message --
From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net
Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Date:  Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:53:32 -0500

I wouldn't even try to get a signal 15 miles away on a 120.  :-p


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 1:29 PM
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

 I was compensating for the electrical tilt but just one degree was 
 throwing
 it way, way off.  Trying to get a usable signal 15 miles out, maybe less,
 and that slightest fraction of a degree would change it considerably.
But
 after reading Tom and Mercy's posts it's all making sense to
me...
 A little more work.

 Bob-


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Faisal Imtiaz
 Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 2:22 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

 . Technically speaking.. if you are not concerned about dealing with
 'near' customers less than 1 or 2 miles... then you can pretty much
 leave the sectors at '0' tilt.. and you have coverage to the horizon

 The built-in electrical down-tilt typically throws folks off.. only
 becomes a factor if you are needing to down tilt for near customers..

 Faisal.

 On 3/29/2010 1:36 PM, Robert West wrote:
 I'm having a heck of a time with the large UBNT sectors getting the tilt
 angle to jive.  With the smaller sectors, they behave perfectly and go
 right
 where the calculations say they will however, with the larger ones,
 nothing
 I do other than have someone 10 miles out with a CPE check levels while
I
 tilt up and down seems to be good.  I REALLY don't want to have to do 
 that
 with all of them...



 Anyone having any success or insight with the proper tilt of these 
 things?
 Using the 120 degree 5GHz flavors.



 Thanks!



 Robert West

 Just Micro Digital Services Inc.

 740-335-7020



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Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

2010-03-29 Thread Robert West
That would be one heck of a CPE!

I'll take it.



-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 4:39 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

Well yes, a 30 dB dish would be fine.  Most people don't use them as CPE.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: Stuart Pierce spie...@avolve.net
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 4:33 PM
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

 Signal with what though ? A 30db Rocketdish setup I can get 17 miles out 
 and the link profile has fresnel in the ground.

 120* 16dbi sector with Rocket to 30dbi dish Rocket. Course I didn't leave 
 it there, I instead connected to another 5ghz Bullet5 on a 120* Maxrad and

 fresnel is still in the ground but Rocket reports 29megs. The heavy rains 
 here recently haven't hurt it's 1500 byte pings at all either, so I'm 
 impressed.

 -- Original Message --
 From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net
 Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Date:  Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:53:32 -0500

I wouldn't even try to get a signal 15 miles away on a 120.  :-p


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 1:29 PM
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

 I was compensating for the electrical tilt but just one degree was
 throwing
 it way, way off.  Trying to get a usable signal 15 miles out, maybe 
 less,
 and that slightest fraction of a degree would change it considerably. 
 But
 after reading Tom and Mercy's posts it's all making sense to 
 me...
 A little more work.

 Bob-


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Faisal Imtiaz
 Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 2:22 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

 . Technically speaking.. if you are not concerned about dealing with
 'near' customers less than 1 or 2 miles... then you can pretty much
 leave the sectors at '0' tilt.. and you have coverage to the horizon

 The built-in electrical down-tilt typically throws folks off.. only
 becomes a factor if you are needing to down tilt for near customers..

 Faisal.

 On 3/29/2010 1:36 PM, Robert West wrote:
 I'm having a heck of a time with the large UBNT sectors getting the 
 tilt
 angle to jive.  With the smaller sectors, they behave perfectly and go
 right
 where the calculations say they will however, with the larger ones,
 nothing
 I do other than have someone 10 miles out with a CPE check levels while

 I
 tilt up and down seems to be good.  I REALLY don't want to have to do
 that
 with all of them...



 Anyone having any success or insight with the proper tilt of these
 things?
 Using the 120 degree 5GHz flavors.



 Thanks!



 Robert West

 Just Micro Digital Services Inc.

 740-335-7020



 Logo5












 
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Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

2010-03-29 Thread Mike Hammett
Well, UBNT's degrees are misleading.  They are -6 dB beamwidths instead 
of -3 dB, like most manufacturers use.  I believe a UBNT 90 performs 
similarly to a regular 120, but I can't be certain.

The UBNT engineer said he saw minimal need for the high gain sectors and 
that most people should use the mid gain ones.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 5:22 PM
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

 I have one where I'm hitting it at 12 miles with a -77 but the noise floor
 hovers at around a -87 most of the time.  But that's using a 23dbi cpe.
 Haven't tried the UBNT 27dbi there, may make it all good.

 Would 90's be a better choice?  I have only one AP using the smaller UBNT
 90's but haven't tried the large 90's, only the 120's.

 Bob-


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Mike Hammett
 Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 3:54 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

 I wouldn't even try to get a signal 15 miles away on a 120.  :-p


 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com



 --
 From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com
 Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 1:29 PM
 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

 I was compensating for the electrical tilt but just one degree was
 throwing
 it way, way off.  Trying to get a usable signal 15 miles out, maybe less,
 and that slightest fraction of a degree would change it considerably. 
 But
 after reading Tom and Mercy's posts it's all making sense to 
 me...
 A little more work.

 Bob-


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Faisal Imtiaz
 Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 2:22 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

 . Technically speaking.. if you are not concerned about dealing with
 'near' customers less than 1 or 2 miles... then you can pretty much
 leave the sectors at '0' tilt.. and you have coverage to the horizon

 The built-in electrical down-tilt typically throws folks off.. only
 becomes a factor if you are needing to down tilt for near customers..

 Faisal.

 On 3/29/2010 1:36 PM, Robert West wrote:
 I'm having a heck of a time with the large UBNT sectors getting the tilt
 angle to jive.  With the smaller sectors, they behave perfectly and go
 right
 where the calculations say they will however, with the larger ones,
 nothing
 I do other than have someone 10 miles out with a CPE check levels while 
 I
 tilt up and down seems to be good.  I REALLY don't want to have to do
 that
 with all of them...



 Anyone having any success or insight with the proper tilt of these
 things?
 Using the 120 degree 5GHz flavors.



 Thanks!



 Robert West

 Just Micro Digital Services Inc.

 740-335-7020



 Logo5











 
 
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Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

2010-03-29 Thread Robert West
Well, I've been setting up a service contract with my friends on planet
Wispalon so I need to find the proper tilt angle to beam the signal into
space.  :)

Yeah, I've been mindful to stay off the horizon, seems wasteful in a big
way.  I'm not a trig scholar so I use basic tilt angle calculators which
have never failed me but these things have me upside down.  Tower height,
distance desired and all are good to have but I was really interested in
others experiences with them and how they have been able to get their
angles.  Again, the smaller, lower gain sectors have been right on the money
but I wasn't aware (ignorant) that these high gain units would give me a
smaller slice to work with.  On the advice of another member I have been
trying one AP with 4 120 degree 19dbi sectors used as 90's.  Signal is great
where we can see it, just needed a good fix for not having to do the 2 man
show all over the county.  (With everyone in a pickup truck stopping to ask
why we're by the road with an antenna)  

Bob-


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Lawrence E. Bakst
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 5:50 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

Technically speaking you're wrong. The highest gain area of a sector antenna
is the center point between the horizontal and vertical spreads. If you
don't downtilt you are sending the strongest part of the signal parallel to
the horizon. Why would you ever want to do that? The whole reason you
downtilt is to get the strongest signal pointed to the area you want.

Figuring this out takes some basic trig calcs using the tangent function.

No one has asked the most important questions you need to know when
calculating downtilt:

1. How high up is the sector antenna?

2. How far out or in what range near to far do you want the sweet spot?

3. How close in to the tower do you need service?

#2 and #3 can conflict with each other and you may have to make a tradeoff.

leb

At 2:22 PM -0400 3/29/10, Faisal Imtiaz wrote:
. Technically speaking.. if you are not concerned about dealing with
'near' customers less than 1 or 2 miles... then you can pretty much
leave the sectors at '0' tilt.. and you have coverage to the horizon

The built-in electrical down-tilt typically throws folks off.. only
becomes a factor if you are needing to down tilt for near customers..

Faisal.

On 3/29/2010 1:36 PM, Robert West wrote:
 I'm having a heck of a time with the large UBNT sectors getting the tilt
 angle to jive.  With the smaller sectors, they behave perfectly and go
right
 where the calculations say they will however, with the larger ones,
nothing
 I do other than have someone 10 miles out with a CPE check levels while I
 tilt up and down seems to be good.  I REALLY don't want to have to do
that
 with all of them...



 Anyone having any success or insight with the proper tilt of these
things?
 Using the 120 degree 5GHz flavors.



 Thanks!



 Robert West

 Just Micro Digital Services Inc.

 740-335-7020



 Logo5




   







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 http://signup.wispa.org/




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Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

2010-03-29 Thread Robert West
Yeah, I've been fighting the -6db beam width in trying to figure them out.
I actually had the same thought earlier to dump the large sectors and
replace with the smaller 120's.  I'm easily getting 10+ mile range out of
them, they're smaller so I can put them on a single mast and they behave.  

Might just be the ticket.

Thanks.

Bob-


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 6:28 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

Well, UBNT's degrees are misleading.  They are -6 dB beamwidths instead 
of -3 dB, like most manufacturers use.  I believe a UBNT 90 performs 
similarly to a regular 120, but I can't be certain.

The UBNT engineer said he saw minimal need for the high gain sectors and 
that most people should use the mid gain ones.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 5:22 PM
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

 I have one where I'm hitting it at 12 miles with a -77 but the noise floor
 hovers at around a -87 most of the time.  But that's using a 23dbi cpe.
 Haven't tried the UBNT 27dbi there, may make it all good.

 Would 90's be a better choice?  I have only one AP using the smaller UBNT
 90's but haven't tried the large 90's, only the 120's.

 Bob-


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Mike Hammett
 Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 3:54 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

 I wouldn't even try to get a signal 15 miles away on a 120.  :-p


 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com



 --
 From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com
 Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 1:29 PM
 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

 I was compensating for the electrical tilt but just one degree was
 throwing
 it way, way off.  Trying to get a usable signal 15 miles out, maybe less,
 and that slightest fraction of a degree would change it considerably. 
 But
 after reading Tom and Mercy's posts it's all making sense to 
 me...
 A little more work.

 Bob-


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Faisal Imtiaz
 Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 2:22 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

 . Technically speaking.. if you are not concerned about dealing with
 'near' customers less than 1 or 2 miles... then you can pretty much
 leave the sectors at '0' tilt.. and you have coverage to the horizon

 The built-in electrical down-tilt typically throws folks off.. only
 becomes a factor if you are needing to down tilt for near customers..

 Faisal.

 On 3/29/2010 1:36 PM, Robert West wrote:
 I'm having a heck of a time with the large UBNT sectors getting the tilt
 angle to jive.  With the smaller sectors, they behave perfectly and go
 right
 where the calculations say they will however, with the larger ones,
 nothing
 I do other than have someone 10 miles out with a CPE check levels while 
 I
 tilt up and down seems to be good.  I REALLY don't want to have to do
 that
 with all of them...



 Anyone having any success or insight with the proper tilt of these
 things?
 Using the 120 degree 5GHz flavors.



 Thanks!



 Robert West

 Just Micro Digital Services Inc.

 740-335-7020



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Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

2010-03-29 Thread Tom DeReggi
I'd argue the largest reason for downtilt is to prevent interference with a 
far out cell site.
Even with 5.8 I've had sectors interfere with other sectors 25 miles 
away,without downtilt.
The problem is that downtilt can also cause more multi-path if shooting into 
urban concrete instead of rural dirt.
Sometimes not having downtilt can result in a better quality link, believe 
it or not.
But whats important is having the flexibilty to point the antenna the way 
you need to point when you need to.
You dont always know in advance what is finally needed. One can only 
engineer and predict the appropriate downtilt, but predictions dont always 
come true.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Lawrence E. Bakst m...@iridescent.org
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 5:50 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle


 Technically speaking you're wrong. The highest gain area of a sector 
 antenna  is the center point between the horizontal and vertical spreads. 
 If you don't downtilt you are sending the strongest part of the signal 
 parallel to the horizon. Why would you ever want to do that? The whole 
 reason you downtilt is to get the strongest signal pointed to the area you 
 want.

 Figuring this out takes some basic trig calcs using the tangent function.

 No one has asked the most important questions you need to know when 
 calculating downtilt:

 1. How high up is the sector antenna?

 2. How far out or in what range near to far do you want the sweet spot?

 3. How close in to the tower do you need service?

 #2 and #3 can conflict with each other and you may have to make a 
 tradeoff.

 leb

 At 2:22 PM -0400 3/29/10, Faisal Imtiaz wrote:
. Technically speaking.. if you are not concerned about dealing with
'near' customers less than 1 or 2 miles... then you can pretty much
leave the sectors at '0' tilt.. and you have coverage to the horizon

The built-in electrical down-tilt typically throws folks off.. only
becomes a factor if you are needing to down tilt for near customers..

Faisal.

On 3/29/2010 1:36 PM, Robert West wrote:
 I'm having a heck of a time with the large UBNT sectors getting the tilt
 angle to jive.  With the smaller sectors, they behave perfectly and go 
 right
 where the calculations say they will however, with the larger ones, 
 nothing
 I do other than have someone 10 miles out with a CPE check levels while 
 I
 tilt up and down seems to be good.  I REALLY don't want to have to do 
 that
 with all of them...



 Anyone having any success or insight with the proper tilt of these 
 things?
 Using the 120 degree 5GHz flavors.



 Thanks!



 Robert West

 Just Micro Digital Services Inc.

 740-335-7020



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Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle

2010-03-29 Thread Mike Mattox
SSSH,  aliens


 Signal is great
 where we can see it, just needed a good fix for not having to do the 2 man
 show all over the county.  (With everyone in a pickup truck stopping to 
 ask
 why we're by the road with an antenna)





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