RE: SPAM ? RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards.
Give me a break. I just joined WISPA in the past 60 days with intentions of HELPING THE INDUSTRY. In the 60 days I have been on this list I have seen all kinds of BS- Political grandstanding, rudeness and generally unprofessional behavior. The most recent discussions about operating illegally have been just as disturbing. I want to know if WISPA intends to step up to the plate and take a position against all of this INCLUDING the open and seemingly arrogant flaunting of the rules that have been put in place by the FCC. If you had the authority to grant new unlicensed spectrum to the WISP represented on this list would you feel confident they will follow the rules? Don't you think the licensed camps are going to eat this up? MY 2 cents- we are in for the battle of our lives with regards to spectrum and we are LOOSING. In fact, if not for the muni crowd, we would have little hope of getting any of the TV/whitespace. Someone else mentioned this was similar to the CB radio story... Marty __ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] 703-623-4542 (Cell) 703-554-6620 (office) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mac Dearman Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 10:29 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: SPAM ? RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. Oh my lord Marty! I think you are trying to get Patrick back in high gear on his soap box!! :-) SHAME SHAME!! Mac Dearman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marty Dougherty Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 12:15 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: SPAM ? RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. Since we have been on the subject- do these all qualify as 'certified FCC systems? I have often wondered how it's possible to build this all yourself and stay legal... Marty __ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] 703-623-4542 (Cell) 703-554-6620 (office) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 12:49 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. Our driver sets the output power using an electronics volume control that is in the Atheros power out section. All drivers set the power using that control. The precise setting is in tables provided by Atheros for the various air rates and as you note it goes down as the rate goes up. This is to keep the amplifier from being over driven by the extra carriers that happen as a result of higher rates. The high power cards that we have tested all have a power amplifier after the Atheros power measurement sections, so the power setting that the driver applies is further added to by the extra amplifier. We have no knowledge about the specs of that extra amplifer except that it supplies from 6 to 8 dB more power. Lonnie On 2/7/07, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can someone tell me how STAROS works in regards to setting power levels to cards that adapative modulate. Specifically related to Cards with on board AMPs. To be more clear A SR2 may be speced at 26db at 1-24 mbps, but 24db at 36mbps, and 22db at 48-56mb. My unconfirmed understanding is, that the SR2 adds about 8db via an onboard external amp beyond what the card is actually set to. So if the card is set to 16db, it will have an output power of 24db in theory. However, its not that simple because the output power will change based on modulation. Does STAROS drivers set the power as the constant power regardless of what modulation? Or does it set the TOP power? Does the power on the card only change if modulation drops and the power is set higher than power it suppoed to drop to? The radio card has no knowledge of what DB antenna is connected to it. And are the onboard AMPs a set output or variable output AMP? The point that I'm making is, how can we set the card to near MAX levels, but guarantee that they will never transmit above the allowed EIRP? If I have the conclusive answer to that question, then I can reduce the power to the lowest level needed for a good link, with headroom capabilty if emergencies occur, but more importantly, I can document what the top allowable setting should be for that specific configuration of a radio, so when an emergencies occurs, my novice staff does not break the rules inadvertently. It gets more confusing with multiple manufacturer AMPs. Because we need to have knowledge of what type of AMP is added to the card. (variable or not). And also what input power level its expecting to minimize internal distortion. I can give an example of a test I ran yesterday using a SR2 (400mw) and a Teletronic 22db (approx 150mw) High Power card. I thought the chipsets were
RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards.
Marty, What you have experienced is not the norm on the WISPA list IMO. 'Scuffles' occasionally do take place, but this list is well run and moderated. You will find a wealth of information sharing and support on this list. This my change for you 2 cents... :) - Cliff -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marty Dougherty Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 4:34 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: SPAM ? RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. Give me a break. I just joined WISPA in the past 60 days with intentions of HELPING THE INDUSTRY. In the 60 days I have been on this list I have seen all kinds of BS- Political grandstanding, rudeness and generally unprofessional behavior. The most recent discussions about operating illegally have been just as disturbing. I want to know if WISPA intends to step up to the plate and take a position against all of this INCLUDING the open and seemingly arrogant flaunting of the rules that have been put in place by the FCC. If you had the authority to grant new unlicensed spectrum to the WISP represented on this list would you feel confident they will follow the rules? Don't you think the licensed camps are going to eat this up? MY 2 cents- we are in for the battle of our lives with regards to spectrum and we are LOOSING. In fact, if not for the muni crowd, we would have little hope of getting any of the TV/whitespace. Someone else mentioned this was similar to the CB radio story... Marty __ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] 703-623-4542 (Cell) 703-554-6620 (office) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mac Dearman Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 10:29 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: SPAM ? RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. Oh my lord Marty! I think you are trying to get Patrick back in high gear on his soap box!! :-) SHAME SHAME!! Mac Dearman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marty Dougherty Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 12:15 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: SPAM ? RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. Since we have been on the subject- do these all qualify as 'certified FCC systems? I have often wondered how it's possible to build this all yourself and stay legal... Marty __ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] 703-623-4542 (Cell) 703-554-6620 (office) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 12:49 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. Our driver sets the output power using an electronics volume control that is in the Atheros power out section. All drivers set the power using that control. The precise setting is in tables provided by Atheros for the various air rates and as you note it goes down as the rate goes up. This is to keep the amplifier from being over driven by the extra carriers that happen as a result of higher rates. The high power cards that we have tested all have a power amplifier after the Atheros power measurement sections, so the power setting that the driver applies is further added to by the extra amplifier. We have no knowledge about the specs of that extra amplifer except that it supplies from 6 to 8 dB more power. Lonnie On 2/7/07, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can someone tell me how STAROS works in regards to setting power levels to cards that adapative modulate. Specifically related to Cards with on board AMPs. To be more clear A SR2 may be speced at 26db at 1-24 mbps, but 24db at 36mbps, and 22db at 48-56mb. My unconfirmed understanding is, that the SR2 adds about 8db via an onboard external amp beyond what the card is actually set to. So if the card is set to 16db, it will have an output power of 24db in theory. However, its not that simple because the output power will change based on modulation. Does STAROS drivers set the power as the constant power regardless of what modulation? Or does it set the TOP power? Does the power on the card only change if modulation drops and the power is set higher than power it suppoed to drop to? The radio card has no knowledge of what DB antenna is connected to it. And are the onboard AMPs a set output or variable output AMP? The point that I'm making is, how can we set the card to near MAX levels, but guarantee that they will never transmit above the allowed EIRP? If I have the conclusive answer to that question, then I can reduce the power to the lowest level needed for a good link, with headroom capabilty if emergencies occur, but more importantly, I can document what the top allowable setting
RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards.
AMEN to you, Marlon! The people (and there are some big names right on this list who are doing it) who are building their own stuff out of OEM boards are not operating under Part 15 properly and risk fines. The FCC can inspect ANY radio station, licensed or not, so all it takes is for them to get wind of the operation and have the proper kick in the pants to do the inspection. Bigger cities with field offices stand a bit better chance, of course. That said, I evaluated a Deliberant outdoor AP that was built very nicely. It contains an OEM board, but sports an FCC registration sticker right on the outside next to the N connector. As long as it is used with the proper antenna system, you are 100% legal- so why risk building stuff up out of whatever you can find. Ralph -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 10:44 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. The company kinda has to do the certs as I understand it. There is data needed that we won't generally have. AND, it's fairly expensive. If WE certify their gear, will WE get paid for the certification? We, as wisps, just need to do a better job of demanding that people buy certified systems. Part of the reason that I don't use MT ap's is the certification issue. I *may* or may not use them if certified, but until they are certified I'll not likely even try. When most people have that attitude we'll see a lot of our favorite toys certified. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Marty Dougherty [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 12:45 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. I don't seem much discussions about integrators or wisps going to the FCC to get these parts certified into a system. So, is it safe to safe that most microtik installs are NOT certified and are therefore not legal? Seems to me like this would be a big issue for us all to address?? Marty __ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] 703-623-4542 (Cell) 703-554-6620 (office) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 3:21 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. do these all qualify as 'certified FCC systems? Parts dont get certified, systems do. They have the capabilty to be certified. Depends if the integrator took the time and money to get them certified. Depends if the WISP took the care to buy them from an integrator that certified them. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Marty Dougherty [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 1:14 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. Since we have been on the subject- do these all qualify as 'certified FCC systems? I have often wondered how it's possible to build this all yourself and stay legal... Marty __ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] 703-623-4542 (Cell) 703-554-6620 (office) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 12:49 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. Our driver sets the output power using an electronics volume control that is in the Atheros power out section. All drivers set the power using that control. The precise setting is in tables provided by Atheros for the various air rates and as you note it goes down as the rate goes up. This is to keep the amplifier from being over driven by the extra carriers that happen as a result of higher rates. The high power cards that we have tested all have a power amplifier after the Atheros power measurement sections, so the power setting that the driver applies is further added to by the extra amplifier. We have no knowledge about the specs of that extra amplifer except that it supplies from 6 to 8 dB more power. Lonnie On 2/7/07, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can someone tell me how STAROS works in regards to setting power levels to cards that adapative modulate. Specifically related to Cards with on board AMPs. To be more clear A SR2 may be speced at 26db at 1-24 mbps, but 24db at 36mbps, and 22db at 48-56mb. My unconfirmed understanding is, that the SR2 adds about 8db via an onboard external amp beyond what the card is actually set to. So if the card is set to 16db, it will have an output power of 24db in theory. However
RE: SPAM ? RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards.
I have kept pretty silent watching all the grandstanding. But Marty brings up an excellent point. The licensed operators are using the flaunting of the laws as good reason to not give you any more UL spectrum. I have seen and heard this first hand. You guys can throw all the darts you want but I'm starting to see your boat go upstream and you're in a canoe without a paddle. Use the spectrum wisely and by the law. Those wisps that don't heed the law need to be taken behind the woodshed and publicly flogged by a group of their peers until they get with the program. Manufacturers should get the same treatment. This would be a good organization to start such a program. Rich had some excellent feedback on what other org's have done and if I were you guys I would ask for his involvement, build a program, and get moving. You are late to the game. Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marty Dougherty Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 5:34 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: SPAM ? RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. Give me a break. I just joined WISPA in the past 60 days with intentions of HELPING THE INDUSTRY. In the 60 days I have been on this list I have seen all kinds of BS- Political grandstanding, rudeness and generally unprofessional behavior. The most recent discussions about operating illegally have been just as disturbing. I want to know if WISPA intends to step up to the plate and take a position against all of this INCLUDING the open and seemingly arrogant flaunting of the rules that have been put in place by the FCC. If you had the authority to grant new unlicensed spectrum to the WISP represented on this list would you feel confident they will follow the rules? Don't you think the licensed camps are going to eat this up? MY 2 cents- we are in for the battle of our lives with regards to spectrum and we are LOOSING. In fact, if not for the muni crowd, we would have little hope of getting any of the TV/whitespace. Someone else mentioned this was similar to the CB radio story... Marty __ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] 703-623-4542 (Cell) 703-554-6620 (office) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mac Dearman Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 10:29 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: SPAM ? RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. Oh my lord Marty! I think you are trying to get Patrick back in high gear on his soap box!! :-) SHAME SHAME!! Mac Dearman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marty Dougherty Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 12:15 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: SPAM ? RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. Since we have been on the subject- do these all qualify as 'certified FCC systems? I have often wondered how it's possible to build this all yourself and stay legal... Marty __ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] 703-623-4542 (Cell) 703-554-6620 (office) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 12:49 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. Our driver sets the output power using an electronics volume control that is in the Atheros power out section. All drivers set the power using that control. The precise setting is in tables provided by Atheros for the various air rates and as you note it goes down as the rate goes up. This is to keep the amplifier from being over driven by the extra carriers that happen as a result of higher rates. The high power cards that we have tested all have a power amplifier after the Atheros power measurement sections, so the power setting that the driver applies is further added to by the extra amplifier. We have no knowledge about the specs of that extra amplifer except that it supplies from 6 to 8 dB more power. Lonnie On 2/7/07, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can someone tell me how STAROS works in regards to setting power levels to cards that adapative modulate. Specifically related to Cards with on board AMPs. To be more clear A SR2 may be speced at 26db at 1-24 mbps, but 24db at 36mbps, and 22db at 48-56mb. My unconfirmed understanding is, that the SR2 adds about 8db via an onboard external amp beyond what the card is actually set to. So if the card is set to 16db, it will have an output power of 24db in theory. However, its not that simple because the output power will change based on modulation. Does STAROS drivers set the power as the constant power regardless of what modulation? Or does it set the TOP power? Does the power on the card only change if modulation drops
RE: SPAM ? RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards.
Marty, That was not a dig :-) No offense intended. I agree 100% with what you said and most of what Patrick generally has to say. (That aint no dig either Patrick) hehehe I was just picking on my brother Leary!! As far as UL operators - it is no different for us than it is in any other arena in the world. If there are limits placed there will always be those who try to exceed that ir-regardless of how they are generally hurting themselves. It is not just in the UL spectrum we see this - - it's in every avenue of life. I didn't say that made it OK - I am saying that it inevitable! It is true that a few bad potatoes can ruin the whole basket, but that is just life I guess. All we can really do is build our networks in accordance to the current Part 15 rules. I also realize that not all of our systems are not certified by Patrick's definition, but as long as we attempt to build one that could be certified by matching the correct antennas with the correct radios, maintain legal limits and good judgment through manufacturers papers - we will all be OK. I have a WISP in my area that is running two towers with 2 watt Hyperlink amps at the 12db Omni's. Believe me - I know about jack ass operators and detest that type of operator. It really shows ignorance to pull such a stunt, but these types of operators know absolutely nothing anyway. Once again - what we are doing and tolerating is nothing new - - these type folks are everywhere in everything and every business in life - - just look around! Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marty Dougherty Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 4:34 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: SPAM ? RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. Give me a break. I just joined WISPA in the past 60 days with intentions of HELPING THE INDUSTRY. In the 60 days I have been on this list I have seen all kinds of BS- Political grandstanding, rudeness and generally unprofessional behavior. The most recent discussions about operating illegally have been just as disturbing. I want to know if WISPA intends to step up to the plate and take a position against all of this INCLUDING the open and seemingly arrogant flaunting of the rules that have been put in place by the FCC. If you had the authority to grant new unlicensed spectrum to the WISP represented on this list would you feel confident they will follow the rules? Don't you think the licensed camps are going to eat this up? MY 2 cents- we are in for the battle of our lives with regards to spectrum and we are LOOSING. In fact, if not for the muni crowd, we would have little hope of getting any of the TV/whitespace. Someone else mentioned this was similar to the CB radio story... Marty __ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] 703-623-4542 (Cell) 703-554-6620 (office) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mac Dearman Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 10:29 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: SPAM ? RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. Oh my lord Marty! I think you are trying to get Patrick back in high gear on his soap box!! :-) SHAME SHAME!! Mac Dearman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marty Dougherty Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 12:15 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: SPAM ? RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. Since we have been on the subject- do these all qualify as 'certified FCC systems? I have often wondered how it's possible to build this all yourself and stay legal... Marty __ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] 703-623-4542 (Cell) 703-554-6620 (office) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 12:49 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. Our driver sets the output power using an electronics volume control that is in the Atheros power out section. All drivers set the power using that control. The precise setting is in tables provided by Atheros for the various air rates and as you note it goes down as the rate goes up. This is to keep the amplifier from being over driven by the extra carriers that happen as a result of higher rates. The high power cards that we have tested all have a power amplifier after the Atheros power measurement sections, so the power setting that the driver applies is further added to by the extra amplifier. We have no knowledge about the specs of that extra amplifer except that it supplies from 6 to 8 dB more power. Lonnie On 2/7/07, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can someone tell me how STAROS works in regards to setting power levels
Re: SPAM ? RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards.
or enforce the rules as they exist. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Brad Larson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 7:19 AM Subject: RE: SPAM ? RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. I have kept pretty silent watching all the grandstanding. But Marty brings up an excellent point. The licensed operators are using the flaunting of the laws as good reason to not give you any more UL spectrum. I have seen and heard this first hand. You guys can throw all the darts you want but I'm starting to see your boat go upstream and you're in a canoe without a paddle. Use the spectrum wisely and by the law. Those wisps that don't heed the law need to be taken behind the woodshed and publicly flogged by a group of their peers until they get with the program. Manufacturers should get the same treatment. This would be a good organization to start such a program. Rich had some excellent feedback on what other org's have done and if I were you guys I would ask for his involvement, build a program, and get moving. You are late to the game. Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marty Dougherty Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 5:34 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: SPAM ? RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. Give me a break. I just joined WISPA in the past 60 days with intentions of HELPING THE INDUSTRY. In the 60 days I have been on this list I have seen all kinds of BS- Political grandstanding, rudeness and generally unprofessional behavior. The most recent discussions about operating illegally have been just as disturbing. I want to know if WISPA intends to step up to the plate and take a position against all of this INCLUDING the open and seemingly arrogant flaunting of the rules that have been put in place by the FCC. If you had the authority to grant new unlicensed spectrum to the WISP represented on this list would you feel confident they will follow the rules? Don't you think the licensed camps are going to eat this up? MY 2 cents- we are in for the battle of our lives with regards to spectrum and we are LOOSING. In fact, if not for the muni crowd, we would have little hope of getting any of the TV/whitespace. Someone else mentioned this was similar to the CB radio story... Marty __ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] 703-623-4542 (Cell) 703-554-6620 (office) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mac Dearman Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 10:29 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: SPAM ? RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. Oh my lord Marty! I think you are trying to get Patrick back in high gear on his soap box!! :-) SHAME SHAME!! Mac Dearman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marty Dougherty Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 12:15 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: SPAM ? RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. Since we have been on the subject- do these all qualify as 'certified FCC systems? I have often wondered how it's possible to build this all yourself and stay legal... Marty __ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] 703-623-4542 (Cell) 703-554-6620 (office) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 12:49 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. Our driver sets the output power using an electronics volume control that is in the Atheros power out section. All drivers set the power using that control. The precise setting is in tables provided by Atheros for the various air rates and as you note it goes down as the rate goes up. This is to keep the amplifier from being over driven by the extra carriers that happen as a result of higher rates. The high power cards that we have tested all have a power amplifier after the Atheros power measurement sections, so the power setting that the driver applies is further added to by the extra amplifier. We have no knowledge about the specs of that extra amplifer except that it supplies from 6 to 8 dB more power. Lonnie On 2/7/07, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can someone tell me how STAROS works in regards to setting power levels to cards that adapative modulate. Specifically related to Cards with on board AMPs. To be more clear A SR2 may be speced at 26db at 1-24 mbps, but 24db at 36mbps, and 22db at 48-56mb. My unconfirmed understanding is, that the SR2 adds about 8db via an onboard external amp beyond what the card is actually set to. So if the card is set to 16db, it will have an output power of 24db in theory
RE: SPAM ? RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards.
It's simple Marlon- WISPA can affect this crowd- If WISPA demands all members be 100% legal operators or NO MEMBERSHIP allowed that would send a powerful message to the FCC and the WISP community. From the code of ethics- ARTICLE II We will conduct ourselves in such a manner as to bring credit to our industry and enhance its reputation. ARTICLE III We will publicize our services in a professional manner upholding the dignity of our profession. We will avoid all conduct, practices and promotion likely to discredit or do injury to our field of endeavor ARTICLE IV We will strive to broaden public understanding and enhance public regard and confidence in our Industry Marty ___ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 703-554-6620 www.roadstarinternet.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 11:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: SPAM ? RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. I get a kick out of these discussions. First, if the people that think we're all illegal operators think that the 5 or 10 very vocal ones on a couple of emails lists represent they whole industry they are being less than honest with anyone. MOST operators are good and honest. Not all of them are anymore than all are in any industry. Personally, I wish that those that love to brag about flaunting the rules would be run up the official flag pole. Second, the talk about WISPA doing anything to those companies isn't helpful either. WISPA isn't nearly powerful enough yet. Hopefully some day it will be. But we're just not there yet. What WISPA can, should, and has done is to always take the side of the law. We have lawyers working on the CALEA issue. We have a team of WISPs going to DC NEXT week (not as WISPA representatives but as WISPA members) to talk to the FCC about their businesses, current market trends etc. If I were going I'd also talk about how damaging the almost total lack of enforcement is being to the industry and our customers. They'll be talking to the chief of the FBI's CALEA group. Hopefully something similar to the FCC's Form 477 FAQ #8 will come of it (for those that have never read the FAQ, #8 tells the WISP EXACTLY what he needs to fill out on the form, it makes this a brainless process). They are also going to meet with the Federal Trade Commission's broadband group. WISPA also has a code of ethics. For those that have never read it: http://www.wispa.org/?page_id=3 As a trade org that represents the industry we have worked hard to make sure that people KNOW what the rules and laws are. If you have an issue you aren't sure of, ask, someone here will know the answer or where to get the answer. We have a couple of lawyers that hang around our industry and love to be helpful to the WISP community. We have technicians, engineers, marketing whizzes, management pros etc. here. To even think that the few that advocate flaunting the rules represent our industry is plain silly. To think that the licensed community, DSL companies, cable companies etc. etc. etc. want us to succeed is also silly. They will do and say anything to destroy our industry. We are THE ONE industry that can possibly compete with them over the next 10 or 20 or 50 years. And as the technology gets better, as spectrum becomes more available, as standards become more widely accepted, we're going to be ever more powerful. The big boys understand money and competition. Not customer service and reputation. We have a huge edge in the long term. I used to think that fiber was the next logical broadband evolution. That eventually all of the copper would be pulled out of service and fiber put in in it's place. Now I'm not so sure. Cell phones are where it's at today. I think that as soon as someone builds a pbx that will use the cell phone as a person's extension line and make it easy to put people on hold, transfer calls etc., the desk phone will go by by. There's not much that can be done with the average extension phone that can't be done with a cell phone, and then some. I am actually much more worried about some form of cell phone broadband than I am about fiber to the home today. I think the traditional phone company is going to end up going the way of the buggy maker. Sure they had a good run for a long time. But people's priorities and habits are clearly changing. I think we're actually likely to see the broadband industry, especially the wireless one, take over all communications services in the next couple of decades. The genie is out of the bottle. People love their laptops (well, everything but those worthless mouse pads and keyboards) and will take them everywhere. The need for spectrum is clear and the demand is JUST really gaining ground. The WISP industry is tracking
Re: SPAM ? RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards.
for the services will not fail. It used to be that the cities were the telco's and power companies. A few of those old models survive but most failed and private industry moved into the gap. We need to keep the pressure on our rogue operators. We need to keep the pressure on our vendors that don't follow or teach to the rules. And we need government to either pass rules that accept today's reality or enforce the rules as they exist. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Brad Larson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 7:19 AM Subject: RE: SPAM ? RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. I have kept pretty silent watching all the grandstanding. But Marty brings up an excellent point. The licensed operators are using the flaunting of the laws as good reason to not give you any more UL spectrum. I have seen and heard this first hand. You guys can throw all the darts you want but I'm starting to see your boat go upstream and you're in a canoe without a paddle. Use the spectrum wisely and by the law. Those wisps that don't heed the law need to be taken behind the woodshed and publicly flogged by a group of their peers until they get with the program. Manufacturers should get the same treatment. This would be a good organization to start such a program. Rich had some excellent feedback on what other org's have done and if I were you guys I would ask for his involvement, build a program, and get moving. You are late to the game. Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marty Dougherty Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 5:34 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: SPAM ? RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. Give me a break. I just joined WISPA in the past 60 days with intentions of HELPING THE INDUSTRY. In the 60 days I have been on this list I have seen all kinds of BS- Political grandstanding, rudeness and generally unprofessional behavior. The most recent discussions about operating illegally have been just as disturbing. I want to know if WISPA intends to step up to the plate and take a position against all of this INCLUDING the open and seemingly arrogant flaunting of the rules that have been put in place by the FCC. If you had the authority to grant new unlicensed spectrum to the WISP represented on this list would you feel confident they will follow the rules? Don't you think the licensed camps are going to eat this up? MY 2 cents- we are in for the battle of our lives with regards to spectrum and we are LOOSING. In fact, if not for the muni crowd, we would have little hope of getting any of the TV/whitespace. Someone else mentioned this was similar to the CB radio story... Marty __ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] 703-623-4542 (Cell) 703-554-6620 (office) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mac Dearman Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 10:29 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: SPAM ? RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. Oh my lord Marty! I think you are trying to get Patrick back in high gear on his soap box!! :-) SHAME SHAME!! Mac Dearman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marty Dougherty Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 12:15 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: SPAM ? RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. Since we have been on the subject- do these all qualify as 'certified FCC systems? I have often wondered how it's possible to build this all yourself and stay legal... Marty __ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] 703-623-4542 (Cell) 703-554-6620 (office) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 12:49 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. Our driver sets the output power using an electronics volume control that is in the Atheros power out section. All drivers set the power using that control. The precise setting is in tables provided by Atheros for the various air rates and as you note it goes down as the rate goes up. This is to keep the amplifier from being over driven by the extra carriers that happen as a result of higher rates. The high power cards that we have tested all have a power amplifier after the Atheros power measurement sections, so the power setting that the driver applies is further added to by the extra amplifier. We have no knowledge about the specs of that extra amplifer except that it supplies from 6 to 8 dB more power. Lonnie On 2/7/07, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can someone tell me how STAROS works in regards to setting power
RE: SPAM ? RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards.
Why? Because our industry is getting hammered at the FCC by the licensed operators. They are telling the world that UL operators are running wild and giving them (us) more UL spectrum will result in the exact same issues in the new spectrum. The FCC does not intend to hire hundreds of inspectors to keep our industry honest and legal. They expect the industry (us, you and me) to police ourselves and to create the industry specifics programs around making that happen. If WISPA is not up to the task then someone else needs to do it. Once Clearwire and Sprint /Nextel show up in your area with licensed broadband you will really feel the heat. There are LOTS of Clearwire wanna be's at the FCC RIGHT NOW begging for licensed spectrum. These are guys who have VC money- $20-30M on average. Not only do they have the cash to be RELEVANT they often have the experience in dealing with the FCC. (many have inside connections or used to work at the FCC. If they make it to your area and have licensed spectrum they will kill you. How will you compete against their power levels and lower prices without additional spectrum? Can you afford to join them at the FCC auctions or spectrum trading pits? I know we all provide better support, we are local guys etc etc etc. We can all tell ourselves that as the licensed operators surround us and take our customers with better spectrum and lower price points. Marty ___ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 703-554-6620 www.roadstarinternet.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 11:27 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: SPAM ? RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. Marlon, Correct me if I am wrong, wasn't it you that was looking for an amp for a 15 mile link of an omni the other day? Fact is it's none of our business here at wispa what our members use for equipment. None what so ever. WISPA is not an enforcement group. We are a trade association. Marty, why is it that you want to get involved with what other people use? George Marlon K. Schafer wrote: I get a kick out of these discussions. First, if the people that think we're all illegal operators think that the 5 or 10 very vocal ones on a couple of emails lists represent they whole industry they are being less than honest with anyone. MOST operators are good and honest. Not all of them are anymore than all are in any industry. Personally, I wish that those that love to brag about flaunting the rules would be run up the official flag pole. Second, the talk about WISPA doing anything to those companies isn't helpful either. WISPA isn't nearly powerful enough yet. Hopefully some day it will be. But we're just not there yet. What WISPA can, should, and has done is to always take the side of the law. We have lawyers working on the CALEA issue. We have a team of WISPs going to DC NEXT week (not as WISPA representatives but as WISPA members) to talk to the FCC about their businesses, current market trends etc. If I were going I'd also talk about how damaging the almost total lack of enforcement is being to the industry and our customers. They'll be talking to the chief of the FBI's CALEA group. Hopefully something similar to the FCC's Form 477 FAQ #8 will come of it (for those that have never read the FAQ, #8 tells the WISP EXACTLY what he needs to fill out on the form, it makes this a brainless process). They are also going to meet with the Federal Trade Commission's broadband group. WISPA also has a code of ethics. For those that have never read it: http://www.wispa.org/?page_id=3 As a trade org that represents the industry we have worked hard to make sure that people KNOW what the rules and laws are. If you have an issue you aren't sure of, ask, someone here will know the answer or where to get the answer. We have a couple of lawyers that hang around our industry and love to be helpful to the WISP community. We have technicians, engineers, marketing whizzes, management pros etc. here. To even think that the few that advocate flaunting the rules represent our industry is plain silly. To think that the licensed community, DSL companies, cable companies etc. etc. etc. want us to succeed is also silly. They will do and say anything to destroy our industry. We are THE ONE industry that can possibly compete with them over the next 10 or 20 or 50 years. And as the technology gets better, as spectrum becomes more available, as standards become more widely accepted, we're going to be ever more powerful. The big boys understand money and competition. Not customer service and reputation. We have a huge edge in the long term. I used to think that fiber was the next logical broadband evolution. That eventually all of the copper would
RE: SPAM ? RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards.
Marty, I believe that this list of 'open to the public,' and therefore users are not subject to the code of ethics that a member agrees to when they join. The paid members have access to a private discussion group with added benefits over and above the public list. The private list is also where the official WISPA positions are decided. I would also hope that any 'paid member' would hold themselves to a higher standard than perhaps the 'rouge' list user. I think that the official WISPA position has always promoted compliance with the law and regulations. However, I have also learned a lot from those that may 'bend or break' the rules too. Ultimately, it is up to me to weigh the risk/return proposition for my company. If you are a paid member; thanks and congratulations. If not, please consider joining and raise the bar for WISPA as a Professional organization. - Cliff -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marty Dougherty Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 10:26 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: SPAM ? RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. It's simple Marlon- WISPA can affect this crowd- If WISPA demands all members be 100% legal operators or NO MEMBERSHIP allowed that would send a powerful message to the FCC and the WISP community. From the code of ethics- ARTICLE II We will conduct ourselves in such a manner as to bring credit to our industry and enhance its reputation. ARTICLE III We will publicize our services in a professional manner upholding the dignity of our profession. We will avoid all conduct, practices and promotion likely to discredit or do injury to our field of endeavor ARTICLE IV We will strive to broaden public understanding and enhance public regard and confidence in our Industry Marty ___ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 703-554-6620 www.roadstarinternet.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 11:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: SPAM ? RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. I get a kick out of these discussions. First, if the people that think we're all illegal operators think that the 5 or 10 very vocal ones on a couple of emails lists represent they whole industry they are being less than honest with anyone. MOST operators are good and honest. Not all of them are anymore than all are in any industry. Personally, I wish that those that love to brag about flaunting the rules would be run up the official flag pole. Second, the talk about WISPA doing anything to those companies isn't helpful either. WISPA isn't nearly powerful enough yet. Hopefully some day it will be. But we're just not there yet. What WISPA can, should, and has done is to always take the side of the law. We have lawyers working on the CALEA issue. We have a team of WISPs going to DC NEXT week (not as WISPA representatives but as WISPA members) to talk to the FCC about their businesses, current market trends etc. If I were going I'd also talk about how damaging the almost total lack of enforcement is being to the industry and our customers. They'll be talking to the chief of the FBI's CALEA group. Hopefully something similar to the FCC's Form 477 FAQ #8 will come of it (for those that have never read the FAQ, #8 tells the WISP EXACTLY what he needs to fill out on the form, it makes this a brainless process). They are also going to meet with the Federal Trade Commission's broadband group. WISPA also has a code of ethics. For those that have never read it: http://www.wispa.org/?page_id=3 As a trade org that represents the industry we have worked hard to make sure that people KNOW what the rules and laws are. If you have an issue you aren't sure of, ask, someone here will know the answer or where to get the answer. We have a couple of lawyers that hang around our industry and love to be helpful to the WISP community. We have technicians, engineers, marketing whizzes, management pros etc. here. To even think that the few that advocate flaunting the rules represent our industry is plain silly. To think that the licensed community, DSL companies, cable companies etc. etc. etc. want us to succeed is also silly. They will do and say anything to destroy our industry. We are THE ONE industry that can possibly compete with them over the next 10 or 20 or 50 years. And as the technology gets better, as spectrum becomes more available, as standards become more widely accepted, we're going to be ever more powerful. The big boys understand money and competition. Not customer service and reputation. We have a huge edge in the long term. I used to think that fiber was the next logical broadband evolution. That eventually all of the copper would be pulled out of service and fiber put
Re: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards.
Our driver sets the output power using an electronics volume control that is in the Atheros power out section. All drivers set the power using that control. The precise setting is in tables provided by Atheros for the various air rates and as you note it goes down as the rate goes up. This is to keep the amplifier from being over driven by the extra carriers that happen as a result of higher rates. The high power cards that we have tested all have a power amplifier after the Atheros power measurement sections, so the power setting that the driver applies is further added to by the extra amplifier. We have no knowledge about the specs of that extra amplifer except that it supplies from 6 to 8 dB more power. Lonnie On 2/7/07, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can someone tell me how STAROS works in regards to setting power levels to cards that adapative modulate. Specifically related to Cards with on board AMPs. To be more clear A SR2 may be speced at 26db at 1-24 mbps, but 24db at 36mbps, and 22db at 48-56mb. My unconfirmed understanding is, that the SR2 adds about 8db via an onboard external amp beyond what the card is actually set to. So if the card is set to 16db, it will have an output power of 24db in theory. However, its not that simple because the output power will change based on modulation. Does STAROS drivers set the power as the constant power regardless of what modulation? Or does it set the TOP power? Does the power on the card only change if modulation drops and the power is set higher than power it suppoed to drop to? The radio card has no knowledge of what DB antenna is connected to it. And are the onboard AMPs a set output or variable output AMP? The point that I'm making is, how can we set the card to near MAX levels, but guarantee that they will never transmit above the allowed EIRP? If I have the conclusive answer to that question, then I can reduce the power to the lowest level needed for a good link, with headroom capabilty if emergencies occur, but more importantly, I can document what the top allowable setting should be for that specific configuration of a radio, so when an emergencies occurs, my novice staff does not break the rules inadvertently. It gets more confusing with multiple manufacturer AMPs. Because we need to have knowledge of what type of AMP is added to the card. (variable or not). And also what input power level its expecting to minimize internal distortion. I can give an example of a test I ran yesterday using a SR2 (400mw) and a Teletronic 22db (approx 150mw) High Power card. I thought the chipsets were near the same. I got really weird results. The AP had an SR2. THe radios were hard set at 24mbps for testing. At the SU we tried using both a SR2 and Teletronics. The SR2 had 10db lower signal at the AP than SU, unexplained. The Teletronics had 5 db lower signal at the SU than AP. The SR2 had 15 db higher SU gain than the Teletronics SU, at MAX power setting. Now I'm assuming that the SR2 was heavilly being overpowered during the short brief test, and we set it down to 16db power in STAROS. Why did this occured differently for the Teleronics Atheros? Is there onboard AMP a different type than the SR2? Or less filtering? Or worse sensitivity? The power levels also varied significantly based on what level cloaking used, so we were concerned on whether both cards, equaly cloaked. There was some talk in the past where some Atheros revs, only did 5Mhz transmits but still listened to 20Mhz during receives. (We possibly needed significant power because we were blasting through some trees and it was high noise environment, and we were using 30deg antennas. Before we get slammed for overpowering but within legal limits, Take note, that this is an experimental environment, to learn the product and the performance of high power cards. Its likely we could have done the link without high powered cards, but then we would not have been able to learn anything. We are also proving the viabilty of whether it hurts to have a HighPower card by default, and if the card still performs optimally if the power is turned down. Or if the AMP in line causes significant in-line distortion that is disadvantageous for low power operation.). I know there are two easy solutions... 1) Use a CM9 without an AMP, and avoid the problem. 2) Use a High quality OFDM Radio Like an Alvarion (Which we do often) But for the sake of this thread, please ignore those two Options, as the purpose of the thread is to understand the specifications of STAROS and HighPowered Cards. I think these kinds of questions are impairative for us to conclusively have the answers to, and not just have a I think thats how it works. The question that I'm also posing is, can this gear be certifiable with the current StarOS feature set? Meaning, if there is no place to add the DBi of attached antenna, or the radio itself would not be able to auto-set these levels and left up to the engineer. I'm
RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards.
I'd be interested in the conclusive answer as well, I've heard several different theories. -Russ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 11:35 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. Can someone tell me how STAROS works in regards to setting power levels to cards that adapative modulate. Specifically related to Cards with on board AMPs. To be more clear A SR2 may be speced at 26db at 1-24 mbps, but 24db at 36mbps, and 22db at 48-56mb. My unconfirmed understanding is, that the SR2 adds about 8db via an onboard external amp beyond what the card is actually set to. So if the card is set to 16db, it will have an output power of 24db in theory. However, its not that simple because the output power will change based on modulation. Does STAROS drivers set the power as the constant power regardless of what modulation? Or does it set the TOP power? Does the power on the card only change if modulation drops and the power is set higher than power it suppoed to drop to? The radio card has no knowledge of what DB antenna is connected to it. And are the onboard AMPs a set output or variable output AMP? The point that I'm making is, how can we set the card to near MAX levels, but guarantee that they will never transmit above the allowed EIRP? If I have the conclusive answer to that question, then I can reduce the power to the lowest level needed for a good link, with headroom capabilty if emergencies occur, but more importantly, I can document what the top allowable setting should be for that specific configuration of a radio, so when an emergencies occurs, my novice staff does not break the rules inadvertently. It gets more confusing with multiple manufacturer AMPs. Because we need to have knowledge of what type of AMP is added to the card. (variable or not). And also what input power level its expecting to minimize internal distortion. I can give an example of a test I ran yesterday using a SR2 (400mw) and a Teletronic 22db (approx 150mw) High Power card. I thought the chipsets were near the same. I got really weird results. The AP had an SR2. THe radios were hard set at 24mbps for testing. At the SU we tried using both a SR2 and Teletronics. The SR2 had 10db lower signal at the AP than SU, unexplained. The Teletronics had 5 db lower signal at the SU than AP. The SR2 had 15 db higher SU gain than the Teletronics SU, at MAX power setting. Now I'm assuming that the SR2 was heavilly being overpowered during the short brief test, and we set it down to 16db power in STAROS. Why did this occured differently for the Teleronics Atheros? Is there onboard AMP a different type than the SR2? Or less filtering? Or worse sensitivity? The power levels also varied significantly based on what level cloaking used, so we were concerned on whether both cards, equaly cloaked. There was some talk in the past where some Atheros revs, only did 5Mhz transmits but still listened to 20Mhz during receives. (We possibly needed significant power because we were blasting through some trees and it was high noise environment, and we were using 30deg antennas. Before we get slammed for overpowering but within legal limits, Take note, that this is an experimental environment, to learn the product and the performance of high power cards. Its likely we could have done the link without high powered cards, but then we would not have been able to learn anything. We are also proving the viabilty of whether it hurts to have a HighPower card by default, and if the card still performs optimally if the power is turned down. Or if the AMP in line causes significant in-line distortion that is disadvantageous for low power operation.). I know there are two easy solutions... 1) Use a CM9 without an AMP, and avoid the problem. 2) Use a High quality OFDM Radio Like an Alvarion (Which we do often) But for the sake of this thread, please ignore those two Options, as the purpose of the thread is to understand the specifications of STAROS and HighPowered Cards. I think these kinds of questions are impairative for us to conclusively have the answers to, and not just have a I think thats how it works. The question that I'm also posing is, can this gear be certifiable with the current StarOS feature set? Meaning, if there is no place to add the DBi of attached antenna, or the radio itself would not be able to auto-set these levels and left up to the engineer. I'm going to Email Teletronics and Ubiquiti on the design specs of their cards, but I'm sure a lot of this depends on drivers as well. Also as a disclaimer, we wanted to rule our power supplies and Mainboard hardware as causes. At the CPE, we used both a WAR2 boards and a WRAP1E. With the WAR board we tried using a 18V 1amp Power Supply, a 24v unregulated power supply, and a regulated 24V 1amp
RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards.
Since we have been on the subject- do these all qualify as 'certified FCC systems? I have often wondered how it's possible to build this all yourself and stay legal... Marty __ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] 703-623-4542 (Cell) 703-554-6620 (office) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 12:49 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. Our driver sets the output power using an electronics volume control that is in the Atheros power out section. All drivers set the power using that control. The precise setting is in tables provided by Atheros for the various air rates and as you note it goes down as the rate goes up. This is to keep the amplifier from being over driven by the extra carriers that happen as a result of higher rates. The high power cards that we have tested all have a power amplifier after the Atheros power measurement sections, so the power setting that the driver applies is further added to by the extra amplifier. We have no knowledge about the specs of that extra amplifer except that it supplies from 6 to 8 dB more power. Lonnie On 2/7/07, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can someone tell me how STAROS works in regards to setting power levels to cards that adapative modulate. Specifically related to Cards with on board AMPs. To be more clear A SR2 may be speced at 26db at 1-24 mbps, but 24db at 36mbps, and 22db at 48-56mb. My unconfirmed understanding is, that the SR2 adds about 8db via an onboard external amp beyond what the card is actually set to. So if the card is set to 16db, it will have an output power of 24db in theory. However, its not that simple because the output power will change based on modulation. Does STAROS drivers set the power as the constant power regardless of what modulation? Or does it set the TOP power? Does the power on the card only change if modulation drops and the power is set higher than power it suppoed to drop to? The radio card has no knowledge of what DB antenna is connected to it. And are the onboard AMPs a set output or variable output AMP? The point that I'm making is, how can we set the card to near MAX levels, but guarantee that they will never transmit above the allowed EIRP? If I have the conclusive answer to that question, then I can reduce the power to the lowest level needed for a good link, with headroom capabilty if emergencies occur, but more importantly, I can document what the top allowable setting should be for that specific configuration of a radio, so when an emergencies occurs, my novice staff does not break the rules inadvertently. It gets more confusing with multiple manufacturer AMPs. Because we need to have knowledge of what type of AMP is added to the card. (variable or not). And also what input power level its expecting to minimize internal distortion. I can give an example of a test I ran yesterday using a SR2 (400mw) and a Teletronic 22db (approx 150mw) High Power card. I thought the chipsets were near the same. I got really weird results. The AP had an SR2. THe radios were hard set at 24mbps for testing. At the SU we tried using both a SR2 and Teletronics. The SR2 had 10db lower signal at the AP than SU, unexplained. The Teletronics had 5 db lower signal at the SU than AP. The SR2 had 15 db higher SU gain than the Teletronics SU, at MAX power setting. Now I'm assuming that the SR2 was heavilly being overpowered during the short brief test, and we set it down to 16db power in STAROS. Why did this occured differently for the Teleronics Atheros? Is there onboard AMP a different type than the SR2? Or less filtering? Or worse sensitivity? The power levels also varied significantly based on what level cloaking used, so we were concerned on whether both cards, equaly cloaked. There was some talk in the past where some Atheros revs, only did 5Mhz transmits but still listened to 20Mhz during receives. (We possibly needed significant power because we were blasting through some trees and it was high noise environment, and we were using 30deg antennas. Before we get slammed for overpowering but within legal limits, Take note, that this is an experimental environment, to learn the product and the performance of high power cards. Its likely we could have done the link without high powered cards, but then we would not have been able to learn anything. We are also proving the viabilty of whether it hurts to have a HighPower card by default, and if the card still performs optimally if the power is turned down. Or if the AMP in line causes significant in-line distortion that is disadvantageous for low power operation.). I know there are two easy solutions... 1) Use a CM9 without an AMP, and avoid the problem. 2) Use a High quality OFDM
Re: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards.
Thanks Lonnie, that was helpful. Have you tested StarOS with the Teletronic's HighPower Card? Actually, I just looked at the Teletronic cards... They are Z-Com xg-622H (G-only) I was real surprise on the results that differed from SR2s. I'd love to use the Teletronics, just because they are cheaper (like $75), and Teletronics is located 5 miles from our office, with tons of inventory!! :-) I'm wondering if the SR2 is a bi-directional Amp, and the Z-Com one-way TX only? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Lonnie Nunweiler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 12:48 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. Our driver sets the output power using an electronics volume control that is in the Atheros power out section. All drivers set the power using that control. The precise setting is in tables provided by Atheros for the various air rates and as you note it goes down as the rate goes up. This is to keep the amplifier from being over driven by the extra carriers that happen as a result of higher rates. The high power cards that we have tested all have a power amplifier after the Atheros power measurement sections, so the power setting that the driver applies is further added to by the extra amplifier. We have no knowledge about the specs of that extra amplifer except that it supplies from 6 to 8 dB more power. Lonnie On 2/7/07, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can someone tell me how STAROS works in regards to setting power levels to cards that adapative modulate. Specifically related to Cards with on board AMPs. To be more clear A SR2 may be speced at 26db at 1-24 mbps, but 24db at 36mbps, and 22db at 48-56mb. My unconfirmed understanding is, that the SR2 adds about 8db via an onboard external amp beyond what the card is actually set to. So if the card is set to 16db, it will have an output power of 24db in theory. However, its not that simple because the output power will change based on modulation. Does STAROS drivers set the power as the constant power regardless of what modulation? Or does it set the TOP power? Does the power on the card only change if modulation drops and the power is set higher than power it suppoed to drop to? The radio card has no knowledge of what DB antenna is connected to it. And are the onboard AMPs a set output or variable output AMP? The point that I'm making is, how can we set the card to near MAX levels, but guarantee that they will never transmit above the allowed EIRP? If I have the conclusive answer to that question, then I can reduce the power to the lowest level needed for a good link, with headroom capabilty if emergencies occur, but more importantly, I can document what the top allowable setting should be for that specific configuration of a radio, so when an emergencies occurs, my novice staff does not break the rules inadvertently. It gets more confusing with multiple manufacturer AMPs. Because we need to have knowledge of what type of AMP is added to the card. (variable or not). And also what input power level its expecting to minimize internal distortion. I can give an example of a test I ran yesterday using a SR2 (400mw) and a Teletronic 22db (approx 150mw) High Power card. I thought the chipsets were near the same. I got really weird results. The AP had an SR2. THe radios were hard set at 24mbps for testing. At the SU we tried using both a SR2 and Teletronics. The SR2 had 10db lower signal at the AP than SU, unexplained. The Teletronics had 5 db lower signal at the SU than AP. The SR2 had 15 db higher SU gain than the Teletronics SU, at MAX power setting. Now I'm assuming that the SR2 was heavilly being overpowered during the short brief test, and we set it down to 16db power in STAROS. Why did this occured differently for the Teleronics Atheros? Is there onboard AMP a different type than the SR2? Or less filtering? Or worse sensitivity? The power levels also varied significantly based on what level cloaking used, so we were concerned on whether both cards, equaly cloaked. There was some talk in the past where some Atheros revs, only did 5Mhz transmits but still listened to 20Mhz during receives. (We possibly needed significant power because we were blasting through some trees and it was high noise environment, and we were using 30deg antennas. Before we get slammed for overpowering but within legal limits, Take note, that this is an experimental environment, to learn the product and the performance of high power cards. Its likely we could have done the link without high powered cards, but then we would not have been able to learn anything. We are also proving the viabilty of whether it hurts to have a HighPower card by default, and if the card still performs optimally if the power is turned down. Or if the AMP in line causes significant
RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards.
I don't seem much discussions about integrators or wisps going to the FCC to get these parts certified into a system. So, is it safe to safe that most microtik installs are NOT certified and are therefore not legal? Seems to me like this would be a big issue for us all to address?? Marty __ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] 703-623-4542 (Cell) 703-554-6620 (office) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 3:21 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. do these all qualify as 'certified FCC systems? Parts dont get certified, systems do. They have the capabilty to be certified. Depends if the integrator took the time and money to get them certified. Depends if the WISP took the care to buy them from an integrator that certified them. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Marty Dougherty [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 1:14 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. Since we have been on the subject- do these all qualify as 'certified FCC systems? I have often wondered how it's possible to build this all yourself and stay legal... Marty __ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] 703-623-4542 (Cell) 703-554-6620 (office) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 12:49 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. Our driver sets the output power using an electronics volume control that is in the Atheros power out section. All drivers set the power using that control. The precise setting is in tables provided by Atheros for the various air rates and as you note it goes down as the rate goes up. This is to keep the amplifier from being over driven by the extra carriers that happen as a result of higher rates. The high power cards that we have tested all have a power amplifier after the Atheros power measurement sections, so the power setting that the driver applies is further added to by the extra amplifier. We have no knowledge about the specs of that extra amplifer except that it supplies from 6 to 8 dB more power. Lonnie On 2/7/07, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can someone tell me how STAROS works in regards to setting power levels to cards that adapative modulate. Specifically related to Cards with on board AMPs. To be more clear A SR2 may be speced at 26db at 1-24 mbps, but 24db at 36mbps, and 22db at 48-56mb. My unconfirmed understanding is, that the SR2 adds about 8db via an onboard external amp beyond what the card is actually set to. So if the card is set to 16db, it will have an output power of 24db in theory. However, its not that simple because the output power will change based on modulation. Does STAROS drivers set the power as the constant power regardless of what modulation? Or does it set the TOP power? Does the power on the card only change if modulation drops and the power is set higher than power it suppoed to drop to? The radio card has no knowledge of what DB antenna is connected to it. And are the onboard AMPs a set output or variable output AMP? The point that I'm making is, how can we set the card to near MAX levels, but guarantee that they will never transmit above the allowed EIRP? If I have the conclusive answer to that question, then I can reduce the power to the lowest level needed for a good link, with headroom capabilty if emergencies occur, but more importantly, I can document what the top allowable setting should be for that specific configuration of a radio, so when an emergencies occurs, my novice staff does not break the rules inadvertently. It gets more confusing with multiple manufacturer AMPs. Because we need to have knowledge of what type of AMP is added to the card. (variable or not). And also what input power level its expecting to minimize internal distortion. I can give an example of a test I ran yesterday using a SR2 (400mw) and a Teletronic 22db (approx 150mw) High Power card. I thought the chipsets were near the same. I got really weird results. The AP had an SR2. THe radios were hard set at 24mbps for testing. At the SU we tried using both a SR2 and Teletronics. The SR2 had 10db lower signal at the AP than SU, unexplained. The Teletronics had 5 db lower signal at the SU than AP. The SR2 had 15 db higher SU gain than the Teletronics SU, at MAX power setting. Now I'm assuming that the SR2 was heavilly being overpowered during the short brief test
Re: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards.
We have not tested with very many high power cards. Using the right antenna we can go 52 miles with a CM9, so high power is not a hot topic here. Our approach to NLOS is more to use microcells to fill in areas that cannot see the main towers. Since we can do a repeater with 1 msec ping times it is no big deal to hop through a few repeaters to hit an area and the prices are way cheaper than the late '90's. Lonnie On 2/7/07, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks Lonnie, that was helpful. Have you tested StarOS with the Teletronic's HighPower Card? Actually, I just looked at the Teletronic cards... They are Z-Com xg-622H (G-only) I was real surprise on the results that differed from SR2s. I'd love to use the Teletronics, just because they are cheaper (like $75), and Teletronics is located 5 miles from our office, with tons of inventory!! :-) I'm wondering if the SR2 is a bi-directional Amp, and the Z-Com one-way TX only? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Lonnie Nunweiler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 12:48 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. Our driver sets the output power using an electronics volume control that is in the Atheros power out section. All drivers set the power using that control. The precise setting is in tables provided by Atheros for the various air rates and as you note it goes down as the rate goes up. This is to keep the amplifier from being over driven by the extra carriers that happen as a result of higher rates. The high power cards that we have tested all have a power amplifier after the Atheros power measurement sections, so the power setting that the driver applies is further added to by the extra amplifier. We have no knowledge about the specs of that extra amplifer except that it supplies from 6 to 8 dB more power. Lonnie On 2/7/07, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can someone tell me how STAROS works in regards to setting power levels to cards that adapative modulate. Specifically related to Cards with on board AMPs. To be more clear A SR2 may be speced at 26db at 1-24 mbps, but 24db at 36mbps, and 22db at 48-56mb. My unconfirmed understanding is, that the SR2 adds about 8db via an onboard external amp beyond what the card is actually set to. So if the card is set to 16db, it will have an output power of 24db in theory. However, its not that simple because the output power will change based on modulation. Does STAROS drivers set the power as the constant power regardless of what modulation? Or does it set the TOP power? Does the power on the card only change if modulation drops and the power is set higher than power it suppoed to drop to? The radio card has no knowledge of what DB antenna is connected to it. And are the onboard AMPs a set output or variable output AMP? The point that I'm making is, how can we set the card to near MAX levels, but guarantee that they will never transmit above the allowed EIRP? If I have the conclusive answer to that question, then I can reduce the power to the lowest level needed for a good link, with headroom capabilty if emergencies occur, but more importantly, I can document what the top allowable setting should be for that specific configuration of a radio, so when an emergencies occurs, my novice staff does not break the rules inadvertently. It gets more confusing with multiple manufacturer AMPs. Because we need to have knowledge of what type of AMP is added to the card. (variable or not). And also what input power level its expecting to minimize internal distortion. I can give an example of a test I ran yesterday using a SR2 (400mw) and a Teletronic 22db (approx 150mw) High Power card. I thought the chipsets were near the same. I got really weird results. The AP had an SR2. THe radios were hard set at 24mbps for testing. At the SU we tried using both a SR2 and Teletronics. The SR2 had 10db lower signal at the AP than SU, unexplained. The Teletronics had 5 db lower signal at the SU than AP. The SR2 had 15 db higher SU gain than the Teletronics SU, at MAX power setting. Now I'm assuming that the SR2 was heavilly being overpowered during the short brief test, and we set it down to 16db power in STAROS. Why did this occured differently for the Teleronics Atheros? Is there onboard AMP a different type than the SR2? Or less filtering? Or worse sensitivity? The power levels also varied significantly based on what level cloaking used, so we were concerned on whether both cards, equaly cloaked. There was some talk in the past where some Atheros revs, only did 5Mhz transmits but still listened to 20Mhz during receives. (We possibly needed significant power because we were blasting through some trees and it was high noise environment, and we were using 30deg antennas. Before we get
RE: SPAM ? RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards.
Oh my lord Marty! I think you are trying to get Patrick back in high gear on his soap box!! :-) SHAME SHAME!! Mac Dearman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marty Dougherty Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 12:15 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: SPAM ? RE: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. Since we have been on the subject- do these all qualify as 'certified FCC systems? I have often wondered how it's possible to build this all yourself and stay legal... Marty __ Marty Dougherty CEO Roadstar Internet Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] 703-623-4542 (Cell) 703-554-6620 (office) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 12:49 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Understanding STAROS with High Power cards. Our driver sets the output power using an electronics volume control that is in the Atheros power out section. All drivers set the power using that control. The precise setting is in tables provided by Atheros for the various air rates and as you note it goes down as the rate goes up. This is to keep the amplifier from being over driven by the extra carriers that happen as a result of higher rates. The high power cards that we have tested all have a power amplifier after the Atheros power measurement sections, so the power setting that the driver applies is further added to by the extra amplifier. We have no knowledge about the specs of that extra amplifer except that it supplies from 6 to 8 dB more power. Lonnie On 2/7/07, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can someone tell me how STAROS works in regards to setting power levels to cards that adapative modulate. Specifically related to Cards with on board AMPs. To be more clear A SR2 may be speced at 26db at 1-24 mbps, but 24db at 36mbps, and 22db at 48-56mb. My unconfirmed understanding is, that the SR2 adds about 8db via an onboard external amp beyond what the card is actually set to. So if the card is set to 16db, it will have an output power of 24db in theory. However, its not that simple because the output power will change based on modulation. Does STAROS drivers set the power as the constant power regardless of what modulation? Or does it set the TOP power? Does the power on the card only change if modulation drops and the power is set higher than power it suppoed to drop to? The radio card has no knowledge of what DB antenna is connected to it. And are the onboard AMPs a set output or variable output AMP? The point that I'm making is, how can we set the card to near MAX levels, but guarantee that they will never transmit above the allowed EIRP? If I have the conclusive answer to that question, then I can reduce the power to the lowest level needed for a good link, with headroom capabilty if emergencies occur, but more importantly, I can document what the top allowable setting should be for that specific configuration of a radio, so when an emergencies occurs, my novice staff does not break the rules inadvertently. It gets more confusing with multiple manufacturer AMPs. Because we need to have knowledge of what type of AMP is added to the card. (variable or not). And also what input power level its expecting to minimize internal distortion. I can give an example of a test I ran yesterday using a SR2 (400mw) and a Teletronic 22db (approx 150mw) High Power card. I thought the chipsets were near the same. I got really weird results. The AP had an SR2. THe radios were hard set at 24mbps for testing. At the SU we tried using both a SR2 and Teletronics. The SR2 had 10db lower signal at the AP than SU, unexplained. The Teletronics had 5 db lower signal at the SU than AP. The SR2 had 15 db higher SU gain than the Teletronics SU, at MAX power setting. Now I'm assuming that the SR2 was heavilly being overpowered during the short brief test, and we set it down to 16db power in STAROS. Why did this occured differently for the Teleronics Atheros? Is there onboard AMP a different type than the SR2? Or less filtering? Or worse sensitivity? The power levels also varied significantly based on what level cloaking used, so we were concerned on whether both cards, equaly cloaked. There was some talk in the past where some Atheros revs, only did 5Mhz transmits but still listened to 20Mhz during receives. (We possibly needed significant power because we were blasting through some trees and it was high noise environment, and we were using 30deg antennas. Before we get slammed for overpowering but within legal limits, Take note, that this is an experimental environment, to learn the product and the performance of high power cards. Its likely we could have done the link without high powered cards, but then we would not have been able to learn anything. We are also proving
