Re: [WISPA] VOIP on a shoestring
This is what I get from this URL: Bad Gateway The proxy server received an invalid response from an upstream server. Apache/2.0.54 (Unix) mod_ssl/2.0.54 OpenSSL/0.9.7i Server at www.stanaphone.com Port 443 Matt Larsen - Lists wrote: Further reading https://www.stanaphone.com/index/news_Nov2205.html There is one way around the 911 requirement. Matt Larsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Matt Larsen - Lists wrote: OK, here is the $1million dollar question...what have you done to make your VOIP service 911 compliant? Are you comfortable with your level of legal exposure? How much did it cost and what is the best way to handle it? Inquiring minds Matt Larsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Matt Liotta wrote: -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] VOIP on a shoestring
I don't feel comfortable discussing the details on a public list. -Matt Matt Larsen - Lists wrote: OK, here is the $1million dollar question...what have you done to make your VOIP service 911 compliant? Are you comfortable with your level of legal exposure? How much did it cost and what is the best way to handle it? Inquiring minds Matt Larsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Matt Liotta wrote: Matt Larsen - Lists wrote: The requirement is there but has yet to be proven by law, or enforced. I intend to keep my voip ventures separate from my regular ISP business. If the 911 requirement for voip is proven by law, then I can either work to make it compliant according to the established legal history, sell the customers to another voip provider or shut it down. Make sure you have help from legal counsel as ventures that only appear to be separate can easily be treated as one legally. FWIW, there is a requirement for cell companies for several years to provide location information to e911 centers. Guess what, a majority of the cellular carriers can't or don't provide that location information. They have gotten exemptions over and over. That didn't stop them from selling service and building out markets. This is the same sort of situation. The public wants VOIP, and they are going to get it. The 911 details will get worked out over time and a few court cases. They have indeed gotten exceptions, but the real question is have you? Until you get an exception you are in an exceedingly risky situation. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] VOIP on a shoestring
After reading that, I think it is lawyer bait I would not want to be the test case!! =-O Blair Davis West Michigan Wireless ISP 269-686-8648 Matt Larsen - Lists wrote: Just go to http://www.stanaphone.com/ and click on their News Update link. Matt Larsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] John Scrivner wrote: This is what I get from this URL: Bad Gateway The proxy server received an invalid response from an upstream server. Apache/2.0.54 (Unix) mod_ssl/2.0.54 OpenSSL/0.9.7i Server at www.stanaphone.com Port 443 Matt Larsen - Lists wrote: Further reading https://www.stanaphone.com/index/news_Nov2205.html There is one way around the 911 requirement. Matt Larsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Matt Larsen - Lists wrote: OK, here is the $1million dollar question...what have you done to make your VOIP service 911 compliant? Are you comfortable with your level of legal exposure? How much did it cost and what is the best way to handle it? Inquiring minds Matt Larsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Matt Liotta wrote: -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] VOIP on a shoestring
I don't believe you will find good margins with the setup you are specifying. Additionally, you can forget about fax working, which is an absolute requirement for businesses. If anyone on this list wants to do VoIP over wireless, figure out how to do fax before committing to the business. From experience I can tell you that it cost us an enormous amount of money to get fax working with Asterisk. -Matt Matt Larsen - Lists wrote: Hello all, After a year and a half of watching, jumping in and learning about VOIP, I think I have come up with a way to implement it with a relatively low budget setup. Here is my very general outline of how to deliver VOIP on a shoestring: 1) Asterisk server with AMP (Asterisk Management Portal): This is a great soho phone system, but on the right machine it appears that it can also be used as a production VOIP server. The key is that it uses MySQL databases for the extension and trunk configurations. Another necessity - G.729 codec licensing. G.729, GSM and ilbc codecs work great on wireless - even garden variety wifi. AMP has a nice web-based interface for maintenance and a decent website for checking voice mail and account usage. 2) Freeside billing server - Freeside can be modified to submit the necessary variables for voip service to an AMP box. That means that the billing for the VOIP can be done with the same server that is doing ISP billing, and it can also handle provisioning/deprovisioning. I don't have this quite sorted out yet, but am getting close. 3) An ATA (Analog Telephone Adapter) that has a built in router and supports the codecs listed above (G729, GSM, ilbc). My preferred one at the moment is the Grandstream HandyTone 488. It is $75 to $80. This unit includes one VOIP line, a router with dhcp and nat, an FXO port (which means that it can route calls through a regular phone line) and a PSTN pass through port. If the customer has an existing phone line, 911 calls can be set up to go right to their regular phone. I have tested out the Sipura and Linksys adapters and they work as well, but the Grandstream has more features for a lower price. 4) A GOOD ITSP (Internet Telephone Service Provider). An ITSP is where you can get your numbers and long distance termination. Right now, I am very happy with Teliax for my numbers and inbound termination, and Voipjet for outbound termination. Voipjet is a little cheaper, so when everything averages out, minutes cost about 1.5cents each. If there is a lot of local traffic, you can also get a few local lines and place the calls through those lines instead of using the ITSP.Teliax has a wide selection of local numbers, better than just about anyone else, and their support and network performance is top-notch. I'm not using a large volume of minutes yet, but I think there may be some interest in putting together a plan for WISPA members to band together for volume discounts. 5) Find the right balance of pricing and features - Im looking at $24.95/month for residential with a $50 setup fee - but we maintain ownership of the ATA unit. If a 1000minute soft cap is put on the residential accounts, you can figure $15 maximum for the minutes used - with $5 (approx cost) for the inbound number that leaves a $5/month profit. If the user only uses 500 minutes, then that is a $12.50/month profit. That is where a few local lines might come in handy to provide a non-ITSP route to the PSTN that is fixed and doesn't have per minute charges. That would increase the profit margin. Businesses should be under a different plan completely. We are getting demand from some strange places for VOIP. Several small towns in my service area have monthly phone rates of $90-$100 per line for local phone service. We are finding that the phone service is more valuable to them than the Internet and they could care less about having a local number. A VOIP phone with a toll-free number is just fine for them, and even with the Internet service they can cut their phone bill in half. That is a little nuts. I welcome any comments from others who are working on the same thing. Matt Larsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm sure there are some guys out there who are going to have some ideas on ways to improve this, so please speak up if you have some ideas. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] VOIP on a shoestring
Matt Larson, I do not have adequate experience to pass judgement on your suggested configuration. However I will add, base on my recent Rant regarding Wholesale VOIP providers that don't look at small WISPs as valuable partners, I believe leveraging WISPA membership base to negotiate a good deal for us all is a good idea. I believe WISPA should agree to endorse a wholesale provider in exchange for them to be required to give partnership to 100% of WISPA member's that request partnership. I'd be willing to waive my personal preference of providers in favor of selecting a VOIP wholesaler that supports WISPs and recognizes our consolidated numbers as worthy partners. WISPA then could also act as a mechanism to more effectively distribute reocurring changing information to the membership so the Wholesaler only has to do it once. Many discussion have been had on what ventures should be explored by WISPA for the benefit of the membership, that would not be in conflict with the services that the members themselves already provided, and was in line with the goals of the organization adn what it is intented to be. Facilitating a group deal for VOIP is one of those things that I think would be a great thing for WISPA to do. But its got to be an all or nothing deal, meaning vendor accepts all WISPA members that are interested, as a condition of agreement. Negotiate once, replicate many. The reality is most WISPs are not the size alone to have any weight to negotiate. Maybe a few guys like Travis have enough volume, but not the majority of us. I'd be willing to donate time to that cause if needed, wether it be determining the requirements needed in an agreement or distributing the info after the fact. Whether the provider be you, Matt Liotta, or a national carrier is irrelevant to me. I just believe that WISPs will own at least 15% of the nations broadband subscribers at some point, and I believe that that is a significant enough market share that there has got to be someone with enough brains to realize the value of WISP partners, to the extent that they will offer favorable terms to the organization. My concern is that most VOIP providers (that value partnerships) home in on business managed PBX VOIP solutions. Although I do not dispute their reasoning for that, that does not help WISPs nationwide, whose businesses may include a large amount of residential focus as well. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 9:50 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] VOIP on a shoestring I don't believe you will find good margins with the setup you are specifying. Additionally, you can forget about fax working, which is an absolute requirement for businesses. If anyone on this list wants to do VoIP over wireless, figure out how to do fax before committing to the business. From experience I can tell you that it cost us an enormous amount of money to get fax working with Asterisk. -Matt Matt Larsen - Lists wrote: Hello all, After a year and a half of watching, jumping in and learning about VOIP, I think I have come up with a way to implement it with a relatively low budget setup. Here is my very general outline of how to deliver VOIP on a shoestring: 1) Asterisk server with AMP (Asterisk Management Portal): This is a great soho phone system, but on the right machine it appears that it can also be used as a production VOIP server. The key is that it uses MySQL databases for the extension and trunk configurations. Another necessity - G.729 codec licensing. G.729, GSM and ilbc codecs work great on wireless - even garden variety wifi. AMP has a nice web-based interface for maintenance and a decent website for checking voice mail and account usage. 2) Freeside billing server - Freeside can be modified to submit the necessary variables for voip service to an AMP box. That means that the billing for the VOIP can be done with the same server that is doing ISP billing, and it can also handle provisioning/deprovisioning. I don't have this quite sorted out yet, but am getting close. 3) An ATA (Analog Telephone Adapter) that has a built in router and supports the codecs listed above (G729, GSM, ilbc). My preferred one at the moment is the Grandstream HandyTone 488. It is $75 to $80. This unit includes one VOIP line, a router with dhcp and nat, an FXO port (which means that it can route calls through a regular phone line) and a PSTN pass through port. If the customer has an existing phone line, 911 calls can be set up to go right to their regular phone. I have tested out the Sipura and Linksys adapters and they work as well, but the Grandstream has more features for a lower price. 4) A GOOD ITSP (Internet Telephone Service Provider). An ITSP is where you can get your numbers
Re: [WISPA] VOIP on a shoestring
Matt Larsen - Lists wrote: Faxing was very simple to deal with - keep one line from the ILEC for faxing. That also provides a good place to route 911 requests if they come from within the system. No need to spend the resources to figure out a problem that can be easily bypassed. If you keep a single POTS line for faxing, how do you manage the backend? You are going to get the line billed separately from your VoIP provider and you won't be able to share long distance or international across the two. Most customers expect to have their minutes pooled across both their fax and voice lines. Then you have the other problem of 911, which is that your solution is NOT compliant with the FCC's requirements for VoIP carriers. Let's not forget about trying to get the customer's voice and fax DIDs in the same block when they need to be spread across VoIP and POTS. If curious as to why you think the margins are not going to be good with this setup. I've done a lot of studying of this subject, and without large volume committments, there doesn't appear to be a way to get better margins. When I say VOIP on a shoestring, I'm talking about something that is costs about the same as setting up another WiPOP ($2000-$4000) and doesn't have any large or long-term financial committments. Almost anything worth doing requires a real commitment. If you aren't willing to make a real commitment and the margins aren't that exciting without a commitment then it probably isn't worth the time. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] VOIP on a shoestring
Additionally on the whole co-op idea, there are different non profits for co-op's, which wispa is not set up as. - Jeff On Jan 5, 2006, at 11:50 AM, Charles Wu wrote: Tom, Your idea is sound, but personally, I would think that what you propose falls into the same category as the WISP Buying Coop IMO, WISPA needs to focus on talking / lobbying in front of the FCC Now, if WISPA members want to get together and form such a CoOp -- go for it Btw...Part-15 I believe has some sort of wholesale VoIP program for its members (through Nuvio?)... -Charles --- WiNOG Austin, TX March 13-15, 2006 http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:wireless- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 1:12 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] VOIP on a shoestring Matt Larson, I do not have adequate experience to pass judgement on your suggested configuration. However I will add, base on my recent Rant regarding Wholesale VOIP providers that don't look at small WISPs as valuable partners, I believe leveraging WISPA membership base to negotiate a good deal for us all is a good idea. I believe WISPA should agree to endorse a wholesale provider in exchange for them to be required to give partnership to 100% of WISPA member's that request partnership. I'd be willing to waive my personal preference of providers in favor of selecting a VOIP wholesaler that supports WISPs and recognizes our consolidated numbers as worthy partners. WISPA then could also act as a mechanism to more effectively distribute reocurring changing information to the membership so the Wholesaler only has to do it once. Many discussion have been had on what ventures should be explored by WISPA for the benefit of the membership, that would not be in conflict with the services that the members themselves already provided, and was in line with the goals of the organization adn what it is intented to be. Facilitating a group deal for VOIP is one of those things that I think would be a great thing for WISPA to do. But its got to be an all or nothing deal, meaning vendor accepts all WISPA members that are interested, as a condition of agreement. Negotiate once, replicate many. The reality is most WISPs are not the size alone to have any weight to negotiate. Maybe a few guys like Travis have enough volume, but not the majority of us. I'd be willing to donate time to that cause if needed, wether it be determining the requirements needed in an agreement or distributing the info after the fact. Whether the provider be you, Matt Liotta, or a national carrier is irrelevant to me. I just believe that WISPs will own at least 15% of the nations broadband subscribers at some point, and I believe that that is a significant enough market share that there has got to be someone with enough brains to realize the value of WISP partners, to the extent that they will offer favorable terms to the organization. My concern is that most VOIP providers (that value partnerships) home in on business managed PBX VOIP solutions. Although I do not dispute their reasoning for that, that does not help WISPs nationwide, whose businesses may include a large amount of residential focus as well. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 9:50 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] VOIP on a shoestring I don't believe you will find good margins with the setup you are specifying. Additionally, you can forget about fax working, which is an absolute requirement for businesses. If anyone on this list wants to do VoIP over wireless, figure out how to do fax before committing to the business. From experience I can tell you that it cost us an enormous amount of money to get fax working with Asterisk. -Matt Matt Larsen - Lists wrote: Hello all, After a year and a half of watching, jumping in and learning about VOIP, I think I have come up with a way to implement it with a relatively low budget setup. Here is my very general outline of how to deliver VOIP on a shoestring: 1) Asterisk server with AMP (Asterisk Management Portal): This is a great soho phone system, but on the right machine it appears that it can also be used as a production VOIP server. The key is that it uses MySQL databases for the extension and trunk configurations. Another necessity - G.729 codec licensing. G.729, GSM and ilbc codecs work great on wireless - even garden variety wifi. AMP has a nice web-based interface for maintenance and a decent website for checking voice mail and account usage. 2) Freeside billing server - Freeside can be modified to submit the necessary variables for voip service to an AMP box. That means
Re: [WISPA] VOIP on a shoestring
Comments inline: Matt Liotta wrote: If you keep a single POTS line for faxing, how do you manage the backend? You are going to get the line billed separately from your VoIP provider and you won't be able to share long distance or international across the two. Most customers expect to have their minutes pooled across both their fax and voice lines. Then you have the other problem of 911, which is that your solution is NOT compliant with the FCC's requirements for VoIP carriers. Let's not forget about trying to get the customer's voice and fax DIDs in the same block when they need to be spread across VoIP and POTS. Perhaps we have a disconnect. I am advocating that the business continue to use ILEC or CLEC lines for their fax services. I'm not managing the backend for the fax lines for the customers that I am talking about. A large business in my area, is 10 or more employees. This is a very rural area, but with many of the same needs as a larger business. Having a separate bill for the fax line is not a big deal to them. You are right, this solution is not 911 compliant. Neither is service from Nufone, Teliax, Voipjet, Stanaphone or hundreds of other VOIP carriers out there. The question of the degree of 911 compliance is very much up in the air right now because the FCC's requirement is basically unenforceable. Skype is not compliant, and yet there are millions of people on their service. As far as I'm concerned, all of the hoopla around 911 compliance is BS that is out there to scare people out of the voip business and tie up the resources of the people who are in it. The model I put together never touches the PSTN, it is purely data - no different than Skype or MSN messenger with voice enabled or Xbox live with players talking to each other. The distinction of what consitutes 911 capable phone service over IP has not been made yet and will not be made for some time. Almost anything worth doing requires a real commitment. If you aren't willing to make a real commitment and the margins aren't that exciting without a commitment then it probably isn't worth the time. -Matt Tying up valuable financial resources into an early stage market like this and expecting to make a large committment without guaranteed revenue possibilities is insanity. Committments also reduce flexibility, and that is a key to the success of the small ISP/WISP operator. If someone comes out with .5 cents a minute or lower termination for low volumes, I will be able to switch my outbound service to that provider with a couple of configuration changes. You are going to be stuck with your committment, and if they can't deliver the same thing you will be out of luck. It's like signing a four year contract for Internet backbone at todays rates. The people who did that in 2003 are now paying twice as much for bandwidth as people who didn't sign long term contracts and maintained their flexibility. Matt Larsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] VOIP on a shoestring
Part-15 is now doing the same thing that I have been at since early summer - - which is Nuvio. The only difference being that Bullet is not paying out all that he has coming in - - which is his right! I ran this across the list many months ago offering to make nothing off of someone elses VoIP connections as resellers. I and 3 others are selling Nuvio services branded as our own and I must confess - - its been real good! check it out: https://mactel.nuvio.com If any of you other wisps want to resell VoIP - - drop me a line off lists and I will shoot you any info you might require Mac Dearman Maximum Access, LLC. www.inetsouth.com www.mactel.nuvio.com www.radioresponse.org (Katrina relief) Rayville, La. 318.728.8600 318.303.4227 318.303.4229 Charles Wu wrote: Tom, Your idea is sound, but personally, I would think that what you propose falls into the same category as the WISP Buying Coop IMO, WISPA needs to focus on talking / lobbying in front of the FCC Now, if WISPA members want to get together and form such a CoOp -- go for it Btw...Part-15 I believe has some sort of wholesale VoIP program for its members (through Nuvio?)... -Charles --- WiNOG Austin, TX March 13-15, 2006 http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 1:12 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] VOIP on a shoestring Matt Larson, I do not have adequate experience to pass judgement on your suggested configuration. However I will add, base on my recent Rant regarding Wholesale VOIP providers that don't look at small WISPs as valuable partners, I believe leveraging WISPA membership base to negotiate a good deal for us all is a good idea. I believe WISPA should agree to endorse a wholesale provider in exchange for them to be required to give partnership to 100% of WISPA member's that request partnership. I'd be willing to waive my personal preference of providers in favor of selecting a VOIP wholesaler that supports WISPs and recognizes our consolidated numbers as worthy partners. WISPA then could also act as a mechanism to more effectively distribute reocurring changing information to the membership so the Wholesaler only has to do it once. Many discussion have been had on what ventures should be explored by WISPA for the benefit of the membership, that would not be in conflict with the services that the members themselves already provided, and was in line with the goals of the organization adn what it is intented to be. Facilitating a group deal for VOIP is one of those things that I think would be a great thing for WISPA to do. But its got to be an all or nothing deal, meaning vendor accepts all WISPA members that are interested, as a condition of agreement. Negotiate once, replicate many. The reality is most WISPs are not the size alone to have any weight to negotiate. Maybe a few guys like Travis have enough volume, but not the majority of us. I'd be willing to donate time to that cause if needed, wether it be determining the requirements needed in an agreement or distributing the info after the fact. Whether the provider be you, Matt Liotta, or a national carrier is irrelevant to me. I just believe that WISPs will own at least 15% of the nations broadband subscribers at some point, and I believe that that is a significant enough market share that there has got to be someone with enough brains to realize the value of WISP partners, to the extent that they will offer favorable terms to the organization. My concern is that most VOIP providers (that value partnerships) home in on business managed PBX VOIP solutions. Although I do not dispute their reasoning for that, that does not help WISPs nationwide, whose businesses may include a large amount of residential focus as well. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 9:50 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] VOIP on a shoestring I don't believe you will find good margins with the setup you are specifying. Additionally, you can forget about fax working, which is an absolute requirement for businesses. If anyone on this list wants to do VoIP over wireless, figure out how to do fax before committing to the business. From experience I can tell you that it cost us an enormous amount of money to get fax working with Asterisk. -Matt Matt Larsen - Lists wrote: Hello all, After a year and a half of watching, jumping in and learning about VOIP, I think I have come up with a way to implement it with a relatively low budget setup. Here is my very general outline of how to deliver VOIP on a shoestring: 1) Asterisk server with AMP (Asterisk Management Portal): This is a great soho
Re: [WISPA] VOIP on a shoestring
Matt Larsen - Lists wrote: Perhaps we have a disconnect. I am advocating that the business continue to use ILEC or CLEC lines for their fax services. I'm not managing the backend for the fax lines for the customers that I am talking about. A large business in my area, is 10 or more employees. This is a very rural area, but with many of the same needs as a larger business. Having a separate bill for the fax line is not a big deal to them. If the businesses are happy to have a mixed solution like that then go ahead and sell it. That sort of thing doesn't fly in our market. You are right, this solution is not 911 compliant. Neither is service from Nufone, Teliax, Voipjet, Stanaphone or hundreds of other VOIP carriers out there. The question of the degree of 911 compliance is very much up in the air right now because the FCC's requirement is basically unenforceable. Skype is not compliant, and yet there are millions of people on their service. As far as I'm concerned, all of the hoopla around 911 compliance is BS that is out there to scare people out of the voip business and tie up the resources of the people who are in it. The model I put together never touches the PSTN, it is purely data - no different than Skype or MSN messenger with voice enabled or Xbox live with players talking to each other. The distinction of what consitutes 911 capable phone service over IP has not been made yet and will not be made for some time. You can argue the FCC's 911 requirement all your want, but nevertheless it is there and they can fine you. If you believe the risk is justifiable based on your revenue projections then by all means go ahead with it. Tying up valuable financial resources into an early stage market like this and expecting to make a large committment without guaranteed revenue possibilities is insanity. Committments also reduce flexibility, and that is a key to the success of the small ISP/WISP operator. If someone comes out with .5 cents a minute or lower termination for low volumes, I will be able to switch my outbound service to that provider with a couple of configuration changes. You are going to be stuck with your committment, and if they can't deliver the same thing you will be out of luck. It's like signing a four year contract for Internet backbone at todays rates. The people who did that in 2003 are now paying twice as much for bandwidth as people who didn't sign long term contracts and maintained their flexibility. You don't need to sign a four year or large minute commitment to get $0.005 per minute termination. Our wholesale customers average $0.002 to $0.009 per minute depending on call patterns and markets served with no commitment. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] VOIP on a shoestring
Just out of interest, has anyone set-up VoIP peering with others in different countries for cheaper international call termination? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: 05 January 2006 21:55 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] VOIP on a shoestring Matt Larsen - Lists wrote: Perhaps we have a disconnect. I am advocating that the business continue to use ILEC or CLEC lines for their fax services. I'm not managing the backend for the fax lines for the customers that I am talking about. A large business in my area, is 10 or more employees. This is a very rural area, but with many of the same needs as a larger business. Having a separate bill for the fax line is not a big deal to them. If the businesses are happy to have a mixed solution like that then go ahead and sell it. That sort of thing doesn't fly in our market. You are right, this solution is not 911 compliant. Neither is service from Nufone, Teliax, Voipjet, Stanaphone or hundreds of other VOIP carriers out there. The question of the degree of 911 compliance is very much up in the air right now because the FCC's requirement is basically unenforceable. Skype is not compliant, and yet there are millions of people on their service. As far as I'm concerned, all of the hoopla around 911 compliance is BS that is out there to scare people out of the voip business and tie up the resources of the people who are in it. The model I put together never touches the PSTN, it is purely data - no different than Skype or MSN messenger with voice enabled or Xbox live with players talking to each other. The distinction of what consitutes 911 capable phone service over IP has not been made yet and will not be made for some time. You can argue the FCC's 911 requirement all your want, but nevertheless it is there and they can fine you. If you believe the risk is justifiable based on your revenue projections then by all means go ahead with it. Tying up valuable financial resources into an early stage market like this and expecting to make a large committment without guaranteed revenue possibilities is insanity. Committments also reduce flexibility, and that is a key to the success of the small ISP/WISP operator. If someone comes out with .5 cents a minute or lower termination for low volumes, I will be able to switch my outbound service to that provider with a couple of configuration changes. You are going to be stuck with your committment, and if they can't deliver the same thing you will be out of luck. It's like signing a four year contract for Internet backbone at todays rates. The people who did that in 2003 are now paying twice as much for bandwidth as people who didn't sign long term contracts and maintained their flexibility. You don't need to sign a four year or large minute commitment to get $0.005 per minute termination. Our wholesale customers average $0.002 to $0.009 per minute depending on call patterns and markets served with no commitment. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.13/221 - Release Date: 04/01/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.13/221 - Release Date: 04/01/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] VOIP on a shoestring
I have not, but would certainly be interested in doing so. -Matt Paul Hendry wrote: Just out of interest, has anyone set-up VoIP peering with others in different countries for cheaper international call termination? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: 05 January 2006 21:55 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] VOIP on a shoestring Matt Larsen - Lists wrote: Perhaps we have a disconnect. I am advocating that the business continue to use ILEC or CLEC lines for their fax services. I'm not managing the backend for the fax lines for the customers that I am talking about. A large business in my area, is 10 or more employees. This is a very rural area, but with many of the same needs as a larger business. Having a separate bill for the fax line is not a big deal to them. If the businesses are happy to have a mixed solution like that then go ahead and sell it. That sort of thing doesn't fly in our market. You are right, this solution is not 911 compliant. Neither is service from Nufone, Teliax, Voipjet, Stanaphone or hundreds of other VOIP carriers out there. The question of the degree of 911 compliance is very much up in the air right now because the FCC's requirement is basically unenforceable. Skype is not compliant, and yet there are millions of people on their service. As far as I'm concerned, all of the hoopla around 911 compliance is BS that is out there to scare people out of the voip business and tie up the resources of the people who are in it. The model I put together never touches the PSTN, it is purely data - no different than Skype or MSN messenger with voice enabled or Xbox live with players talking to each other. The distinction of what consitutes 911 capable phone service over IP has not been made yet and will not be made for some time. You can argue the FCC's 911 requirement all your want, but nevertheless it is there and they can fine you. If you believe the risk is justifiable based on your revenue projections then by all means go ahead with it. Tying up valuable financial resources into an early stage market like this and expecting to make a large committment without guaranteed revenue possibilities is insanity. Committments also reduce flexibility, and that is a key to the success of the small ISP/WISP operator. If someone comes out with .5 cents a minute or lower termination for low volumes, I will be able to switch my outbound service to that provider with a couple of configuration changes. You are going to be stuck with your committment, and if they can't deliver the same thing you will be out of luck. It's like signing a four year contract for Internet backbone at todays rates. The people who did that in 2003 are now paying twice as much for bandwidth as people who didn't sign long term contracts and maintained their flexibility. You don't need to sign a four year or large minute commitment to get $0.005 per minute termination. Our wholesale customers average $0.002 to $0.009 per minute depending on call patterns and markets served with no commitment. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] VOIP on a shoestring
Comments inline... You are right, this solution is not 911 compliant. Neither is service from Nufone, Teliax, Voipjet, Stanaphone or hundreds of other VOIP carriers out there. The question of the degree of 911 compliance is very much up in the air right now because the FCC's requirement is basically unenforceable. Skype is not compliant, and yet there are millions of people on their service. As far as I'm concerned, all of the hoopla around 911 compliance is BS that is out there to scare people out of the voip business and tie up the resources of the people who are in it. The model I put together never touches the PSTN, it is purely data - no different than Skype or MSN messenger with voice enabled or Xbox live with players talking to each other. The distinction of what consitutes 911 capable phone service over IP has not been made yet and will not be made for some time. You can argue the FCC's 911 requirement all your want, but nevertheless it is there and they can fine you. If you believe the risk is justifiable based on your revenue projections then by all means go ahead with it. The requirement is there but has yet to be proven by law, or enforced. I intend to keep my voip ventures separate from my regular ISP business. If the 911 requirement for voip is proven by law, then I can either work to make it compliant according to the established legal history, sell the customers to another voip provider or shut it down. FWIW, there is a requirement for cell companies for several years to provide location information to e911 centers. Guess what, a majority of the cellular carriers can't or don't provide that location information. They have gotten exemptions over and over. That didn't stop them from selling service and building out markets. This is the same sort of situation. The public wants VOIP, and they are going to get it. The 911 details will get worked out over time and a few court cases. Tying up valuable financial resources into an early stage market like this and expecting to make a large committment without guaranteed revenue possibilities is insanity. Committments also reduce flexibility, and that is a key to the success of the small ISP/WISP operator. If someone comes out with .5 cents a minute or lower termination for low volumes, I will be able to switch my outbound service to that provider with a couple of configuration changes. You are going to be stuck with your committment, and if they can't deliver the same thing you will be out of luck. It's like signing a four year contract for Internet backbone at todays rates. The people who did that in 2003 are now paying twice as much for bandwidth as people who didn't sign long term contracts and maintained their flexibility. You don't need to sign a four year or large minute commitment to get $0.005 per minute termination. Our wholesale customers average $0.002 to $0.009 per minute depending on call patterns and markets served with no commitment. -Matt I chose a poor way to express my point. Here is a better way. A year ago I spoke with another prospective voip solutions provider (similar to CommPartners) and it was going to require a $3000/month committment in services sold to start doing my own voip service. I am glad that I did not pursue that avenue, as it would have been money wasted. That is the kind of committment/lack of flexibility that I do not want to get into. I apologize if it seems that I am being contradictory, I just think that it makes sense to have some good healthy debate about things. We all see things from a different perspective, and I do appreciate what you have brought to the discussion. Business wise, if you can do $0.005 per minute termination in the lower 48 with minimal committments and can terminate IAX, then I am interested in more about what you have to offer. The difference between 1.5 cents and .5 cents a minute is pretty huge for the margins, and makes the breakeven projections work a lot better. Matt Larsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] VOIP on a shoestring
I don't agree that its the same as a Coop opportunity. A coop is to buy gear. Leveraging a membership's enrollment to help the success of the Future of WISPs, and help protect the rights of the small WISP from the is more in line with what a Union does, and I look at WISPA like a union. A coop is to negotiate better pricing on a product. I'm not suggesting that. I'm suggesting negotiating better terms. Thats a different task all togeather. A coop replaces the distributor. I'm not suggesting that, or maybe I mistakenly did with out thinking clearly on the best ways for WISPA to facilitate negotiating better terms for WISPs. The transaction would still be between the WISP and the VOIP provider, the only difference is that the WISPs has gotten better terms going into the deal. This is the kind of thing I've seen that NASBA does, and association representing OEM PC companies. Its sorta like associations that organize health plans for their members. The association isn;t involved in the transaction to purcahse the health plan, they jsut pre-negotiate the terms to use numbers to get leverage for better terms. I agree that WISPA's first priority should be to lobby FCC. But that doesn't mean additional services should not be provided. Only thing I'd worry about is if there were members already trying to wholesale VOIP, that would consider it a conflict of interest. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 2:50 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] VOIP on a shoestring Tom, Your idea is sound, but personally, I would think that what you propose falls into the same category as the WISP Buying Coop IMO, WISPA needs to focus on talking / lobbying in front of the FCC Now, if WISPA members want to get together and form such a CoOp -- go for it Btw...Part-15 I believe has some sort of wholesale VoIP program for its members (through Nuvio?)... -Charles --- WiNOG Austin, TX March 13-15, 2006 http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 1:12 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] VOIP on a shoestring Matt Larson, I do not have adequate experience to pass judgement on your suggested configuration. However I will add, base on my recent Rant regarding Wholesale VOIP providers that don't look at small WISPs as valuable partners, I believe leveraging WISPA membership base to negotiate a good deal for us all is a good idea. I believe WISPA should agree to endorse a wholesale provider in exchange for them to be required to give partnership to 100% of WISPA member's that request partnership. I'd be willing to waive my personal preference of providers in favor of selecting a VOIP wholesaler that supports WISPs and recognizes our consolidated numbers as worthy partners. WISPA then could also act as a mechanism to more effectively distribute reocurring changing information to the membership so the Wholesaler only has to do it once. Many discussion have been had on what ventures should be explored by WISPA for the benefit of the membership, that would not be in conflict with the services that the members themselves already provided, and was in line with the goals of the organization adn what it is intented to be. Facilitating a group deal for VOIP is one of those things that I think would be a great thing for WISPA to do. But its got to be an all or nothing deal, meaning vendor accepts all WISPA members that are interested, as a condition of agreement. Negotiate once, replicate many. The reality is most WISPs are not the size alone to have any weight to negotiate. Maybe a few guys like Travis have enough volume, but not the majority of us. I'd be willing to donate time to that cause if needed, wether it be determining the requirements needed in an agreement or distributing the info after the fact. Whether the provider be you, Matt Liotta, or a national carrier is irrelevant to me. I just believe that WISPs will own at least 15% of the nations broadband subscribers at some point, and I believe that that is a significant enough market share that there has got to be someone with enough brains to realize the value of WISP partners, to the extent that they will offer favorable terms to the organization. My concern is that most VOIP providers (that value partnerships) home in on business managed PBX VOIP solutions. Although I do not dispute their reasoning for that, that does not help WISPs nationwide, whose businesses may include a large amount of residential focus as well. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday
Re: [WISPA] VOIP on a shoestring
wanted to get the deal signed and move on. As for Part-15 and Nuvio. I'm not apposed to Michael making his cut. However, what I proposed for WISPA is not them to be a reseller or a COOP. I don't want to pay WISPA. I want to deal direct with the wholesaler. If the wholesaler wants to pay out to Part-15, thats the wholesaler's puragative. For WISPA i suggested WISPA negotiating the terms, not becoming a reseller of the product to its members. There is a big difference. However, I may nto find what I'm looking for. If I ahve to go through a reseller, Mcihale would be high on my lsit of people that I'd trust to work through, jsut because I think he has enough momentum to survive based on his position. So please send me any of teh info you have on the program, I would like toview it for consideration. What I may not have discussed is, the legal ramification of working through a reseller. What happens if teh reseller goes bankrupt? What legal contract is in place that allows me to keep my clients, when I do not have a contract directly with the wholesaler. With DSL, that has happened to me twice. I spent years developing a client base with the understanding I'd make my business on the residuals, but when my wholesaler (Covad's reseller) went belly up or was about to, I had no legal ramification with Covad directly on protecting my clients. It also works the other way, if the the actually wholesale carrier does under the reseller becomes a shield between me the WISP and the prime wholesale carrier. Legally things are a disaster when some of the partners in the relationship fail. I don't ever want to be in that position again. It will kill a reputation. I want a contract with the person providing service to my client, so I ahve legal recourse if it is ever needed, or atleast the right to negotiate under the terms of the contract. I got bittem a third time throughthe same problem when I was a reseller for Crosslink that resold NAS DSL. The response from NAS was always, we honor our agreements with Crosslink 100% however we don't ahve an agreement with you, so we can't help you. The problem is that the deal between the reseller (the crosslink) and the Carrier (NAS) gets out of sync with the terms of the deal between the reseller (crosslink) and the reseller's reseller (ME). I don't care who gets a commission, or who gets their peiceof the action, I jsut want to make sure the person I'm paying the check to or that my customer is paying the check to, is the one that I or they ahve a contract with, and is the one providing the service, so I can enforce my agreement with them if it is ever needed. There is nothing worse than providing a service to someone and responding to them, sorry I can't help you I'm just a reseller of the reseller, you got to live with it or cancel, my hands are tide. It destroys a cpmpanies reputation. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 4:13 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] VOIP on a shoestring Part-15 is now doing the same thing that I have been at since early summer - - which is Nuvio. The only difference being that Bullet is not paying out all that he has coming in - - which is his right! I ran this across the list many months ago offering to make nothing off of someone elses VoIP connections as resellers. I and 3 others are selling Nuvio services branded as our own and I must confess - - its been real good! check it out: https://mactel.nuvio.com If any of you other wisps want to resell VoIP - - drop me a line off lists and I will shoot you any info you might require Mac Dearman Maximum Access, LLC. www.inetsouth.com www.mactel.nuvio.com www.radioresponse.org (Katrina relief) Rayville, La. 318.728.8600 318.303.4227 318.303.4229 Charles Wu wrote: Tom, Your idea is sound, but personally, I would think that what you propose falls into the same category as the WISP Buying Coop IMO, WISPA needs to focus on talking / lobbying in front of the FCC Now, if WISPA members want to get together and form such a CoOp -- go for it Btw...Part-15 I believe has some sort of wholesale VoIP program for its members (through Nuvio?)... -Charles --- WiNOG Austin, TX March 13-15, 2006 http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 1:12 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] VOIP on a shoestring Matt Larson, I do not have adequate experience to pass judgement on your suggested configuration. However I will add, base on my recent Rant regarding Wholesale VOIP providers that don't look at small WISPs as valuable partners, I believe leveraging WISPA membership base to negotiate a good deal for us all is a good idea
Re: [WISPA] VOIP on a shoestring
Matt Larsen - Lists wrote: The requirement is there but has yet to be proven by law, or enforced. I intend to keep my voip ventures separate from my regular ISP business. If the 911 requirement for voip is proven by law, then I can either work to make it compliant according to the established legal history, sell the customers to another voip provider or shut it down. Make sure you have help from legal counsel as ventures that only appear to be separate can easily be treated as one legally. FWIW, there is a requirement for cell companies for several years to provide location information to e911 centers. Guess what, a majority of the cellular carriers can't or don't provide that location information. They have gotten exemptions over and over. That didn't stop them from selling service and building out markets. This is the same sort of situation. The public wants VOIP, and they are going to get it. The 911 details will get worked out over time and a few court cases. They have indeed gotten exceptions, but the real question is have you? Until you get an exception you are in an exceedingly risky situation. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] VOIP on a shoestring
OK, here is the $1million dollar question...what have you done to make your VOIP service 911 compliant? Are you comfortable with your level of legal exposure? How much did it cost and what is the best way to handle it? Inquiring minds Matt Larsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Matt Liotta wrote: Matt Larsen - Lists wrote: The requirement is there but has yet to be proven by law, or enforced. I intend to keep my voip ventures separate from my regular ISP business. If the 911 requirement for voip is proven by law, then I can either work to make it compliant according to the established legal history, sell the customers to another voip provider or shut it down. Make sure you have help from legal counsel as ventures that only appear to be separate can easily be treated as one legally. FWIW, there is a requirement for cell companies for several years to provide location information to e911 centers. Guess what, a majority of the cellular carriers can't or don't provide that location information. They have gotten exemptions over and over. That didn't stop them from selling service and building out markets. This is the same sort of situation. The public wants VOIP, and they are going to get it. The 911 details will get worked out over time and a few court cases. They have indeed gotten exceptions, but the real question is have you? Until you get an exception you are in an exceedingly risky situation. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] VOIP on a shoestring
Further reading https://www.stanaphone.com/index/news_Nov2205.html There is one way around the 911 requirement. Matt Larsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Matt Larsen - Lists wrote: OK, here is the $1million dollar question...what have you done to make your VOIP service 911 compliant? Are you comfortable with your level of legal exposure? How much did it cost and what is the best way to handle it? Inquiring minds Matt Larsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Matt Liotta wrote: Matt Larsen - Lists wrote: The requirement is there but has yet to be proven by law, or enforced. I intend to keep my voip ventures separate from my regular ISP business. If the 911 requirement for voip is proven by law, then I can either work to make it compliant according to the established legal history, sell the customers to another voip provider or shut it down. Make sure you have help from legal counsel as ventures that only appear to be separate can easily be treated as one legally. FWIW, there is a requirement for cell companies for several years to provide location information to e911 centers. Guess what, a majority of the cellular carriers can't or don't provide that location information. They have gotten exemptions over and over. That didn't stop them from selling service and building out markets. This is the same sort of situation. The public wants VOIP, and they are going to get it. The 911 details will get worked out over time and a few court cases. They have indeed gotten exceptions, but the real question is have you? Until you get an exception you are in an exceedingly risky situation. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
