Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand

2006-06-06 Thread John J. Thomas
I think the general thinking is that WISP's shouldn't have to pay to make the Governments' job easier... John -Original Message- From: Sam Tetherow [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 5, 2006 11:29 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-06 Thread Mark Koskenmaki
!- - Original Message - From: David Sovereen To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 7:08 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? Many of you seem to be of the belief that the proposed bill requires you to keep records of the content

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand

2006-06-06 Thread Mark Koskenmaki
- Original Message - From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 9:04 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, George Rogato wrote: 1) Does the government have

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand

2006-06-06 Thread Butch Evans
On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Mark Koskenmaki wrote: On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, George Rogato wrote: 1) Does the government have a right to know the actions of Americans on the internet? This is not really at issue. At least it is not really of any concern for us here. Of course this is AT ISSUE. Or do

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-06 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
)www.odessaoffice.com/wirelesswww.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: Carl A Jeptha To: WISPA General List Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 8:28 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? last time I thought Wispa was international and if it is not I

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand

2006-06-05 Thread Butch Evans
On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, George Rogato wrote: Most likely wispa will act on this. But, ultimately, it comes down to does the membership of wispa want to do this. Which is what I said in my first post on the subject. I don't mean to be rude, but shouldn't the paying members that make up the wispa

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand

2006-06-05 Thread George Rogato
Well now I don't feel so alone in my opinions :) I still consider you a wisp, isn't that what brought us all here together? George Butch Evans wrote: On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, George Rogato wrote: Most likely wispa will act on this. But, ultimately, it comes down to does the membership of wispa

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-05 Thread David Sovereen
:46 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? The problem with all of this is that most ISP's wireless or land line historically do not get involved in a trade association and work together for the common good. Land line ISP's didn't join together and wisps are not joining together

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-05 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
- Original Message - From: Mark Koskenmaki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 10:40 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? Because Im personna non grata with WISPA and Part-15. sigh Says who? Last I knew you

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-05 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
/wirelesswww.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: David Sovereen To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 7:08 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? Many of you seem to be of the belief that the proposed bill requires you to keep records

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-05 Thread George Rogato
- From: Mark Koskenmaki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 10:40 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? Because Im personna non grata with WISPA and Part-15. sigh Says who? Last I knew you were a paid member. And you've

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-05 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
meeting) www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: David Sovereen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 7:33 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? I agree with your

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-05 Thread David Sovereen
! 64.146.146.12 (net meeting) www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: David Sovereen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 7:33 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? I

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand

2006-06-05 Thread Sam Tetherow
I want to preface this email with the statement that I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT support this law, it is an invasion of privacy and places an undue burden of responsibility on an ISP. Now that being said, as I read the article, and as some have pointed out the information being requested for archive

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-05 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? Where can I find out what WISPA's official positions are? Where can I see the letters and actions WISPA has sent on behalf of its members? The root of my questions is, How do I know that the money I spend is making a difference? I've joined

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-05 Thread David Sovereen
PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? You just need to pay attention here and on the private list. It would be nice if someone had the time to work on the web site more. So that everyone would know what we're going right now! But those of us working are too busy doing

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-05 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
- Original Message - From: David Sovereen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 12:01 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? I've only been on the list for about four weeks. I learned about it at the Mikrotik User

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-05 Thread Carl A Jeptha
ot; [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 2:44 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? You just need to pay attention here and on the private list. It would be nice if someone had the time to work on the web site more

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-05 Thread Peter R.
There are still things that can be learned for our Canadian members. Perhaps some of the Canadian members can form a committee to watch regulatory, legislative, and politics in Canada. There are parallels between the US Canada and they should be taken advantage of. - Peter Carl A Jeptha

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread George Rogato
I don't know Mark, why don't you go do something about it. George Mark Koskenmaki wrote: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060601/ts_nm/security_internet_usa_dc Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop this kinda stuff? Or, is this issue like certain others, where WISPA founders take contrary

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread David E. Smith
Mark Koskenmaki wrote: Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop this kinda stuff? Personally, I'm counting on it, so I can get the company to buy me that multi-terabyte NAS I've always wanted. I'm running out of disk space at home to store all my pr0n. David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA

RE: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Mac Dearman
I wouldn't imagine that this responsibility would fall on us WISPs, but to our upstream providers like BellSouth...etc. Why would they want to deal with the 20,000 piss ants of the world when all they have to do is back up stream two hops and catch all the traffic? Common sense tells me this will

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Mark Koskenmaki
Internet, NO WIRES! - - Original Message - From: Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 10:21 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? I

RE: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Mac Dearman
Fast Internet, NO WIRES! - - Original Message - From: Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 10:21 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Mark Koskenmaki
, 2006 12:22 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? I don't know Mark, why don't you go do something about it. George Mark Koskenmaki wrote: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060601/ts_nm/security_internet_usa_dc Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop this kinda stuff

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Mark Koskenmaki
- Original Message - From: Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 10:39 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? You have enough clients that it would bankrupt you to build a server to log your HTTP SMTP

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Lonnie Nunweiler
I doubt that my upstream provider has any records of my customer IP assignments, so it is my belief that any records keeping and logging would fall on me. I'm not big but I do NOT consider my operation as being run by piss ants either. Do you consider the majority of WISP's to be run by piss

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread George Rogato
@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 12:22 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? I don't know Mark, why don't you go do something about it. George Mark Koskenmaki wrote: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060601/ts_nm/security_internet_usa_dc Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread George Rogato
I was assuming the same thing. I thought that European isps were already required to do this. George Mac Dearman wrote: I wouldn't imagine that this responsibility would fall on us WISPs, but to our upstream providers like BellSouth...etc. Why would they want to deal with the 20,000 piss ants

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Lonnie Nunweiler
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 12:34 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? Common sense tells you that the big boys will lobby to force the last mile provider

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Mark Koskenmaki
- Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 11:09 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? Mark I didn't realize you were persona non grata with wispa. It's the first that I have heard

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Pete Davis
]] On Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 12:34 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? Common sense tells you that the big boys will lobby to force the last mile provider to log it all, so as to bankrupt the competition. North East Oregon Fastnet

RE: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Mac Dearman
Dearman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 12:34 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? Common sense tells you that the big boys will lobby to force

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Mark Koskenmaki
General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 1:02 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? Lonnie, When I used the term piss ant it was referring to the working guys of this business. We all know how the ants work :-) doggedly for a small portion of the whole

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Larry Yunker
It may seem like a 'no brainer' to you, but since when did an idea being brain-dead-stupid stop the government from trying or actually enforcing it? There is one common thread that runs through all things government does when it is seeking to help the common folk - a complete and total lack

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Sam Tetherow
PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 1:00 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? Just try and imagine how much storage you would require for 2 years worth of traffic. Guys are joking about it being good

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Sam Tetherow
- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 12:34 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? Common sense tells you that the big boys will lobby to force the last mile provider to log it all, so

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Butch Evans
On Sat, 3 Jun 2006, Mark Koskenmaki wrote: Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop this kinda stuff? Why aren't YOU doing something about it? Or, is this issue like certain others, where WISPA founders take contrary positions to the rest of the members and side with big Hmmm, it

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Butch Evans
On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, Mark Koskenmaki wrote: Common sense tells you that the big boys will lobby to force the last mile provider to log it all, so as to bankrupt the competition. Common sense tells ME that if it were going to affect ME, to the point of bankrupcy, the I would be doing

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Butch Evans
On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, Mark Koskenmaki wrote: Because Im personna non grata with WISPA and Part-15. Perhaps it's your winning personality? I don't know...maybe it's something else. I don't share the same political goals, and as such, I'm not in any position to do squat. You don't have a

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Butch Evans
On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, Lonnie Nunweiler wrote: I'm not big but I do NOT consider my operation as being run by piss ants either. Do you consider the majority of WISP's to be run by piss ants and not worthy of any recognition and responsibility? I sincerely hope not because I have no desire to

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread George Rogato
The problem with all of this is that most ISP's wireless or land line historically do not get involved in a trade association and work together for the common good. Land line ISP's didn't join together and wisps are not joining together either. Here WISPA has been created and hardly anyone

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread George Rogato
Thank you very much. As for work groups, YES Butch, even YOU a NON wisp can join in a work group and contribute. I will say once again, If ANYONE in our industry can come up with a work group, wisp centric that will help our industry and our wisps, we would WELCOME you to do so and create

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Blair Davis
Did anyone READ the link? They are NOT asking us to archive content, but IP addresses of sites browsed to, e-mail sent to and so on. Not content. If Congress is going to be asked to pass legislation ordering Internet providers to retain data they won't be asked for content of that data but

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Peter R.
If it would be a huge burden to small businesses, then the SBA can file under the Small Business Burden Act (forget what it is actually called). The federal gov't cannot create regulations that would be a hardship for SMB owners. BTW, imagine having 2M BB users and how much space that would

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Peter R.
Actually, the ACLU declined to meet with the AG FBI saying basically You have got to be kidding. Mark Koskenmaki wrote: Did anyone notice that the ACLU hasn't peeped a negative word against requiring the logging of all internet use by individuals? We're on our own, as individuals, as

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Peter R.
All of this is pedantic. It seems consensus is this is a crazy idea. Everyone agrees. Problems: Hardship. Too much info. No chain of evidence. Unsecure. No space or time. Unreasonable. Who do we send the letter to? I'll help a board member or Mark K. compose one. Regards, Peter -- WISPA

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? - small ISPs built

2006-06-04 Thread Peter R.
Not only true in DC, but to the general public as well, Larry. Larry Yunker wrote: I doubt quite seriously that any heads of executive branch departments realize that broadband/internet services are sometimes/often? provided by companies with a staff of less than ten and gross revenues less

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? - ACTION

2006-06-04 Thread Peter R.
I don't think anyone believes you will go Quietly :) However, when you make that noise, are you aiming it at your Congress Critter? Or just into the ether that is a listserv? In the time it took to write and read the 30 or so posts on the subject, you could have written a press release or

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Mark Koskenmaki
! - - Original Message - From: Peter R. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 3:25 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? All of this is pedantic. It seems consensus is this is a crazy idea. Everyone agrees. Problems: Hardship

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Mark Koskenmaki
--- - Original Message - From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 2:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? On Sat, 3 Jun 2006, Mark Koskenmaki wrote: Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand

2006-06-04 Thread George Rogato
I could be wrong but as I have followed this thread there are 2 issues at hand. 1) Does the government have a right to know the actions of Americans on the internet? 2) Is this a responsibility of the ISP to bear the burden of gathering this information or should the burden be carried by

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Sam Tetherow
Then it is a boondoggle. All of the web traffic will be to some off-shore proxy. The same with email. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Blair Davis wrote: Did anyone READ the link? They are NOT asking us to archive content, but IP addresses of sites browsed to, e-mail sent to and so

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand

2006-06-04 Thread Sam Tetherow
While I agree with your breakdown and the general statement that #1 should be decided on by the country as a whole. I think it is up to us as an industry that understands the implications of what is being asked for to make a statement about #1 even if it is just a clarification of the

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread David Sovereen
From: Pete Davis To: WISPA General List ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 2:34 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? If/when the feds require it, I guess the way to do it would be to run Ethereal in fully promiscuous mode on a mirro

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Butch Evans
On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, Mark Koskenmaki wrote: Why aren't YOU doing something about it? What DO you want me to do? What do _I_ want you to do? Do what you seem to expect others to do on your behalf, which you seem to think they are not/will not do! I was sold on the notion that we should

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand

2006-06-04 Thread Butch Evans
On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, George Rogato wrote: 1) Does the government have a right to know the actions of Americans on the internet? This is not really at issue. At least it is not really of any concern for us here. 2) Is this a responsibility of the ISP to bear the burden of gathering this

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand

2006-06-04 Thread George Rogato
Butch, Most likely wispa will act on this. But, ultimately, it comes down to does the membership of wispa want to do this. I don't mean to be rude, but shouldn't the paying members that make up the wispa membership decide what wispa acts on or not? It's not that I disagree with any of this,