Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand

2006-06-06 Thread John J. Thomas
I think the general thinking is that WISP's shouldn't have to pay to make the 
Governments' job easier...

John 


-Original Message-
From: Sam Tetherow [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, June 5, 2006 11:29 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand

I want to preface this email with the statement that I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT 
support this law, it is an invasion of privacy and places an undue 
burden of responsibility on an ISP.

Now that being said, as I read the article, and as some have pointed out 
the information being requested for archive is merely websites visited 
and email address sent to. This information is trivial to gather and 
really not that burdensome to archive. I currently run about 4Mbps-5Mbps 
of traffic from 8am to midnight and a months worth of these logs 
uncompressed only takes up about 7G of space. Compression will save me 
60% of that so it is more like 3G for a month of 4-5Mbps. This fits 
nicely on a single DVD-R for achiving once a month. Even scaling this up 
to 30X the traffic for a DVD/day gets you 120-150Mbps daily average traffic.

Your total cost on something like this would be
1. a Mikrotik box (or any router that supports the netflow protocol) to 
sit right before your edge router (or as your edge router).
2. A PC to capture the data with a DVD+-R drive total cost  $500.
3. And then a spindle of DVD media at ~ $15/100 DVDs.

This puts the grand total in at well under $2000 one time cost and then 
whatever personnel cost you want to assign to burning a DVD once a 
month, or if you are lucky enough to have enough customers to require 
120Mbps, once a day.

I think it is important if we are going to draft something up to address 
this issue that we address it with facts. For most ISPs coming up with 
the money to achieve this while a PITA is not going to cause the 
business to go bankrupt. I achieved this using equipment I already have 
in place. My DS3 MT router sends the netflow data to the box I use for 
system/network monitoring. I currently do not archive this data to DVD 
because I have only been collecting it for a month, but I highly doubt I 
will unless required to by law. The only reason I collect this data is 
for IP accounting and troubleshooting and will probably keep no more 
than a month or two of the full data. But it sure comes in handy when a 
customer calls up and says that they haven't had internet for the past 2 
weeks and I can pull up the charts that show they have. Or they say that 
things have been running real slow lately and I can look at the flow 
data and see that their kids have been using P2P applications or doing 
large FTP downloads.

Sam Tetherow
Sandhills Wireless

Butch Evans wrote:
 On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, George Rogato wrote:

 1) Does the government have a right to know the actions of Americans 
 on the internet?

 This is not really at issue. At least it is not really of any concern 
 for us here.

 2) Is this a responsibility of the ISP to bear the burden of 
 gathering this information or should the burden be carried by the 
 feds themselves with little or no cost to the ISP?

 THIS is the real issue that ISPs face. The problem that we all have 
 with this is multifaceted. First, (and perhaps most importantly) is 
 the cost that many ISPs will face to comply with the requirements. In 
 many cases, this cost will be both direct (for hardware) and indirect 
 (network reconfiguration). Also, many ISPs are set up in such a way 
 that compliance will be nearly impossible. Let me provide just a 
 couple examples.

 First, many ISPs use private IP space internally for their customers. 
 For these ISPs, any monitoring done by an outside entity (i.e. ATT) 
 will be completely useless.

 Another example, would be the many ISPs that have several diverse 
 networks. I have several customers that have 3 or 4 distinct networks 
 (one has 8). These ISPs would be required to store this data in either 
 one location, or purchase the equipment for each network.

 It is my belief that WISPA should create a stance against any 
 requirement for WISPs to store customer traffic patterns for any 
 period. The very idea is hideously un-American in the first place. Be 
 that as it may, it is technically difficult, and financially unfair 
 for many smaller ISPs to have to store this information at all.

 This thread started out as we should not be allowing the government 
 to know our every move. This is a political discussion that can not 
 and should not be decided by an ISP, but rather the entire country. 
 We don't have any jurisdiction on issues such as this.

 George, this is one area where we disagree. This is NOT a political 
 discussion. This is an issue that directly impacts every ISP 
 (wireless or wired). It is, perhaps, true that the political 
 implications are what Mark was driving at, but the issue at hand is 
 NOT political in nature. It IS financial and technical.

 We do

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-06 Thread Mark Koskenmaki



Ummm... read the story carefully. 
The FBI and AG Gonzalez DO want content recorded. People have 
proposed regulation... that is very unclear and imprecise about what is actually 
required. 

The problem is that the people involved in writing 
the laws are clueless about network operations and utterly unconcerned about 
the Constitution. 




North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061personal correspondence 
to: mark at neofast dot netsales inquiries to: purchasing at 
neofast dot netFast Internet, NO 
WIRES!-

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  David Sovereen 
  To: WISPA General List 
  Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 7:08 PM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent 
  about this?
  
  Many of you seem to be of the belief that the 
  proposed bill requires you to keep records of the content of 
  subscribers. Simply put, that isNOT THE CASE. While I do not 
  know the specific details of the various proposals, I do know that none of 
  them are expecting ISPs to keep copies of content accessed.
  
  The proposed bills arerequiring that ISPs 
  keep track of what subscriber used what IP address(es). One version of 
  the bill wants this data retained for one year; another version for two 
  years. For ISPs using RADIUS for accounting or making static IP 
  assignments, this is pretty easy to do. I 
  don't know what requirements, if any, are being proposed for subscribers 
  placed behind a NAT firewall shared by many subscribers.
  
  I understand that WISPA is an organization still 
  in its infancy, and they don't currently have the resources to "lobby" 
  congress. But there IS an organization speaking to congress on your 
  bahalf on this issue: The United States Internet Industry 
  Association.
  
  As a former member of the board of directors, I 
  can assure you that this is a small, but vocal organization, and they are 
  representing YOUR interests. Data retention requirements have been on 
  USIIA's radar for quite some time. On Feburary 17, 2005 (last year) the 
  board of directors adopted this policy as USIIA's official position on data 
  retention: http://www.usiia.org/legis/dataret.html
  
  If you'd like tosupport an organization 
  that does speak to congress and is representing your interests, you might 
  consider giving USIIA your financial. For the record, their board 
  receives no compensation. The only paid employee is David McClure, their 
  full-time President and CEO (and "lobbyist", but he doesn't go by that 
  title).
  
  Dave
  
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Pete Davis 

To: WISPA General List ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 2:34 
    PM
    Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent 
about this?
If/when the feds require it, I guess the way to do it would 
be to run Ethereal in fully promiscuous mode on a mirrored port on a switch 
and streaming it to server over the FBI's T1 to their server. When the 
Federal government installs their T1 to my NOC, I would be willing to upload 
it to them over their network resources to their server for them to to keep 
on file for 2 years to never look at, otherwise, I don't have any way to 
insure that the data hasn't been tampered with if it stays in my file room. 
The government requiring me to keep two years records of all network traffic 
seems unreasonable. If I were a defense attorney defending a client whose 
evidence against him was stored by some local ISP dinks on their servers for 
24 months, I would certainly question the chain of the evidence, and likely 
get it thrown out.Here is an example of how this could go wrong: If 
I am an ISP operator (I am actually) and I have a vendetta against a client 
(I don't, or at least not one I want to discuss here) and I am in charge of 
keeping network logs of all of that client's traffic, I could easily forge 
the records to make it look like he had committed a horrific crime, like 
reproducing the transcript of the commentary of a game without the express 
written consent of Major League Baseball, and make it look like it came from 
his IP address. I don't know how that record, 24 months old, and sitting in 
my tape locker could ever be held as compelling evidence against him, unless 
there was already an investigation, where these records still probably 
couldn't make or break a case.I suppose that the thinking is, that 
if the subscriber is guilty of child porn, and they can prove what site he 
downloaded from and sent it to, they could go after that web host for 
hosting the smut. Either way, putting it off to the local ISP to keep 
records seems far fetched. Pete DavisNoDial.netMac 
Dearman wrote: 
You have enough clients that it would bankrupt you to build a server to log
your HTTP  SMTP traffic? I 

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand

2006-06-06 Thread Mark Koskenmaki

- Original Message - 
From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at
hand


 On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, George Rogato wrote:

 1) Does the government have a right to know the actions of
 Americans on the internet?

 This is not really at issue.  At least it is not really of any
 concern for us here.

WHAT???

Of course this is AT ISSUE.   Or do you exempt yourself from being a citizen
and having any concern about intrusion into your life???

That some of us happen to be part of the businesses in question is merely
incidental.   Our opinions as businessmen should reflect that issue as well.
Or is that too redneck these days?


North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

-

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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand

2006-06-06 Thread Butch Evans

On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Mark Koskenmaki wrote:


On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, George Rogato wrote:


1) Does the government have a right to know the actions of
Americans on the internet?


This is not really at issue.  At least it is not really of any
concern for us here.


Of course this is AT ISSUE.  Or do you exempt yourself from being a 
citizen and having any concern about intrusion into your life???


Not at all.  BUT, IT DOESN'T APPLY TO THIS LIST.

--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-06 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181



Hiya Carl,

Most of the discussion here centers around US 
issues ONLY because there are more US isp's involved. Maybe you Kanooks 
are even worse about joining organizations than us Yanks? 
hehehehe

We structured WISPA specifically so that it can 
grow anywhere in the world. And we can use info learned in one country and 
put it (and people) together to help folks anywhere.

I know that there was a Canadian issue that you'd 
asked about once before. I may be able to carve out a little bit more time 
to help you with that in the next week or so if you'd like to try again. 
Feel free to post your issues here, that's part of what we're here 
for.

Remember, this is your list too. If you don't 
use it it won't help you.
Marlon(509) 
982-2181 
Equipment sales(408) 907-6910 
(Vonage) 
Consulting services42846865 
(icq) 
And I run my own wisp!64.146.146.12 (net meeting)www.odessaoffice.com/wirelesswww.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Carl A Jeptha 
  
  To: WISPA General List 
  Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 8:28 PM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent 
  about this?
  last time I thought Wispa was international and if it is not I 
  may as well cancel my membership.It does appear that USA Politics and 
  legislation has been on the forefront alot. Just asking??You have a Good Day now,


Carl A Jeptha
http://www.airnet.ca
office 905 349-2084
Emergency only Pager 905 377-6900
skype cajeptha
David Sovereen wrote: 
  I've only been on the list for about four weeks.  I learned about it at the
Mikrotik User Meeting in Dallas from a few of the other attendees.

Since I've been on, there hasn't been any discussion of what WISPA is doing
on the legislative front.  If all of the good stuff is hiding in the members
only area, and you don't tell people about the good stuff hiding in there on
your public web site, how are enticing people to join?  If you want people's
money, you need to market to them.

I finally made it through the USIIA Bulletin.  According to them, the data
retention bill isn't likely to be passed.  Quote, "The reality is that such
legislation would never pass the Congress, and that the DOJ will likely back
down from the issue in the face of public criticism and concerns."  If that
weren't the case, I'd probably get a USIIA Alert asking me to e-mail my
congresspeople.  I feel this type of information is valuable.

Dave

989-837-3790 x 151
989-837-3780 fax

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.mercury.net

129 Ashman St, Midland, MI  48640
- Original Message - 
From: "Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 2:44 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?


  
You just need to pay attention here and on the private list.

It would be nice if someone had the time to work on the web site more.  So
that everyone would know what we're going right now!  But those of us
working are too busy doing and have no time for bragging about it.  grin

Watch and learn Dave.  One thing I'm very proud of is that WISPA has never
hid anything that it does.  We are the most open group I've ever been
around.

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: "David Sovereen" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 10:58 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?



  Where can I find out what WISPA's official positions are?  Where can I
  see
  

  the letters and actions WISPA has sent on behalf of its members?  The
  root
  

  of my questions is, "How do I know that the money I spend is making a
difference?"

I've joined organizations before.  I send them my check or give them a
credit card number and never hear from them again... until they want
  more
  

  money.  I don't support my local Chamber of Commerce for this exact
reason.
What does my local Chamber of Commerce do to deserve my money?  After a
year, I didn't know, so I cancelled my membership.

Dave

989-837-3790 x 151
989-837-3780 fax

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.mercury.net

129 Ashman St, Midland, MI  48640
- Original Message - 
From: "Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?


  
I'm really at a bit of a loss as to how to deal with your question
David.
  

  
What's a trade association do for you?  (You being generic here)
The
  

  
idea

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand

2006-06-05 Thread Butch Evans

On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, George Rogato wrote:

Most likely wispa will act on this. But, ultimately, it comes down 
to does the membership of wispa want to do this.


Which is what I said in my first post on the subject.

I don't mean to be rude, but shouldn't the paying members that make 
up the wispa membership decide what wispa acts on or not?


Yes indeed.  BTW, I am not a WISP, and as such, elected to purchase 
only an associate membership.  But I do, in fact, agree with this 
sentiment.


I would also like to point out that everyone wants wispa to do 
something, but I only saw 1 person jump up and instantly try to 
give a solution. That was Peter R. and he isn't even a paying 
member of wispa, yet.


You did not see the private exchange between Mark and I.  I 
suggested that if he does not want to bring this issue to the WISPA 
membership, that he contact his congressman and or Senator directly. 
Peter's post was right on the same idea, but was posted to the list.


--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand

2006-06-05 Thread George Rogato

Well now I don't feel so alone in my opinions :)

I still consider you a wisp, isn't that what brought us all here together?

George

Butch Evans wrote:

On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, George Rogato wrote:

Most likely wispa will act on this. But, ultimately, it comes down to 
does the membership of wispa want to do this.



Which is what I said in my first post on the subject.

I don't mean to be rude, but shouldn't the paying members that make up 
the wispa membership decide what wispa acts on or not?



Yes indeed.  BTW, I am not a WISP, and as such, elected to purchase only 
an associate membership.  But I do, in fact, agree with this sentiment.


I would also like to point out that everyone wants wispa to do 
something, but I only saw 1 person jump up and instantly try to give a 
solution. That was Peter R. and he isn't even a paying member of 
wispa, yet.



You did not see the private exchange between Mark and I.  I suggested 
that if he does not want to bring this issue to the WISPA membership, 
that he contact his congressman and or Senator directly. Peter's post 
was right on the same idea, but was posted to the list.




--
George Rogato

Welcome to WISPA

www.wispa.org

http://signup.wispa.org/
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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-05 Thread David Sovereen
I agree with your sentiments completely.

One needs to ask, though, why aren't ISPs supporting WISPA?  The answer is
more than likely the same answer most small businesses give when asked why
they don't join industry associations: it's not worthwhile... it costs more
money than the benefits of membership are worth.

My company is not a member of WISPA.  And at this point, I don't see what
benefit membership in WISPA would give me.  I'm a believer in the strength
of numbers and joining ranks for greater good.  That's why I support NFIB
and USIIA, as well as local organizations in my state and community.

Why should I send $250 to WISPA?

Dave

989-837-3790 x 151
989-837-3780 fax

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.mercury.net

129 Ashman St, Midland, MI  48640
- Original Message - 
From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 5:46 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?


 The problem with all of this is that most ISP's wireless or land line
 historically do not get involved in a trade association and work
 together for the common good.

 Land line ISP's didn't join together and wisps are not joining together
 either.

 Here WISPA has been created and hardly anyone is taking advantage of
 joining WISPA and trying to get anything done.

 This is the sad thing that is discouraging, that an organization has
 been created and nobody is taking advantage of it.
 It's also discouraging to hear that some people say or imply that WISPA
 is a good old boys club run by insiders, when in actuality WISPA is an
 organization wide open that just about anyone in the wisp business can
 join run for office get elected and take charge.

 Very disappointing, and this is what makes me scream when I hear posts
 like Roberts the other day accusing board members of getting paid with
 perks or Marks suggestion this morning that the board is on the inside
 with this stuff.

 You guys, the wisps that are out in the fields doing the wisp business
 should be trying harder to get the entire wisp community to join this
 organization and to get something accomplished.

 My poll for a working group for muni wireless had 2 respondents.
 Only 2 wisps are interested or think they need help with muni wireless?
 Hard to believe.



 -- 
 George Rogato

 Welcome to WISPA

 www.wispa.org

 http://signup.wispa.org/
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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-05 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181


- Original Message - 
From: Mark Koskenmaki [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 10:40 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?



Because Im personna non grata with WISPA and Part-15.


sigh

Says who?  Last I knew you were a paid member.  And you've pulled no Glass 
style manuvers.  You've not been kicked out of the asso. or anything.


You don't agree with some of the WISPA official stands, and that's ok.  This 
is the WISPA asso. not the Koskenmaki asso!  Just like it's not the Schafer 
asso.  I don't like everything that WISPA does or stands for. Heck, I don't 
always like everything *I* write on WISPA's behalf  But it's a group 
effort, or at least supposed to be.  I don't take it personally, though it's 
often frustrating as hell (USF and our totaly lack of any official response 
comes directly to mind).




I don't share the same political goals, and as such,  I'm not in any
position to do squat.


OK, I can accept that.  But that's YOUR possition, not one of WISPA's or, I 
believe, most of the WISPA membership.




After being threatened by both WISPA people and Part-15 people, being told
to shut up and go away, I don't figure I have much influence around either
place.   But, since the stories DID appear in several public news outlets, 
I

figured at least someone would notice and care enough to comment.


You were asked to let a dead horse die.  That's not the same as shut up and 
go away.  It's only shut up!!!  Big Grin




And I figure this ends my ability to be on this list, as well.


I don't see why.  Unless you just can't stand not getting your way. 
hehehehehe


Lighten up Mark.  This is a team sport.  It's football, not golf.  You don't 
get to play every hole your way and you don't get to get mad when the 
coaches call a play you don't like.  You still have a job to do for your 
industry.  Do your best and no one here will ever hold that against you.


laters,
marlon




See ya.

North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

-
- Original Message - 
From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 12:22 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?



I don't know Mark, why don't you go do something about it.
George

Mark Koskenmaki wrote:
 http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060601/ts_nm/security_internet_usa_dc

 Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop this kinda stuff?

 Or, is this issue like certain others, where WISPA founders take

contrary

 positions to the rest of the members and side with big brother and

encourage
 the feds to dig into and regulate our business, in some apparent hope 
 of

 ingratiating themselves with the regulators?

 AT LEAST could we have the leadership tell us what THEY think of this?

 North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
 personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
 sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
 Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

--

--

 -


--
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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-05 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181



I know of that organization David. I think 
WISPA would be happy to work with them on this issue.

Marlon(509) 
982-2181 
Equipment sales(408) 907-6910 
(Vonage) 
Consulting services42846865 
(icq) 
And I run my own wisp!64.146.146.12 (net meeting)www.odessaoffice.com/wirelesswww.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  David Sovereen 
  To: WISPA General List 
  Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 7:08 PM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent 
  about this?
  
  Many of you seem to be of the belief that the 
  proposed bill requires you to keep records of the content of 
  subscribers. Simply put, that isNOT THE CASE. While I do not 
  know the specific details of the various proposals, I do know that none of 
  them are expecting ISPs to keep copies of content accessed.
  
  The proposed bills arerequiring that ISPs 
  keep track of what subscriber used what IP address(es). One version of 
  the bill wants this data retained for one year; another version for two 
  years. For ISPs using RADIUS for accounting or making static IP 
  assignments, this is pretty easy to do. I 
  don't know what requirements, if any, are being proposed for subscribers 
  placed behind a NAT firewall shared by many subscribers.
  
  I understand that WISPA is an organization still 
  in its infancy, and they don't currently have the resources to "lobby" 
  congress. But there IS an organization speaking to congress on your 
  bahalf on this issue: The United States Internet Industry 
  Association.
  
  As a former member of the board of directors, I 
  can assure you that this is a small, but vocal organization, and they are 
  representing YOUR interests. Data retention requirements have been on 
  USIIA's radar for quite some time. On Feburary 17, 2005 (last year) the 
  board of directors adopted this policy as USIIA's official position on data 
  retention: http://www.usiia.org/legis/dataret.html
  
  If you'd like tosupport an organization 
  that does speak to congress and is representing your interests, you might 
  consider giving USIIA your financial. For the record, their board 
  receives no compensation. The only paid employee is David McClure, their 
  full-time President and CEO (and "lobbyist", but he doesn't go by that 
  title).
  
  Dave
  
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Pete Davis 

To: WISPA General List ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 2:34 
    PM
    Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent 
about this?
If/when the feds require it, I guess the way to do it would 
be to run Ethereal in fully promiscuous mode on a mirrored port on a switch 
and streaming it to server over the FBI's T1 to their server. When the 
Federal government installs their T1 to my NOC, I would be willing to upload 
it to them over their network resources to their server for them to to keep 
on file for 2 years to never look at, otherwise, I don't have any way to 
insure that the data hasn't been tampered with if it stays in my file room. 
The government requiring me to keep two years records of all network traffic 
seems unreasonable. If I were a defense attorney defending a client whose 
evidence against him was stored by some local ISP dinks on their servers for 
24 months, I would certainly question the chain of the evidence, and likely 
get it thrown out.Here is an example of how this could go wrong: If 
I am an ISP operator (I am actually) and I have a vendetta against a client 
(I don't, or at least not one I want to discuss here) and I am in charge of 
keeping network logs of all of that client's traffic, I could easily forge 
the records to make it look like he had committed a horrific crime, like 
reproducing the transcript of the commentary of a game without the express 
written consent of Major League Baseball, and make it look like it came from 
his IP address. I don't know how that record, 24 months old, and sitting in 
my tape locker could ever be held as compelling evidence against him, unless 
there was already an investigation, where these records still probably 
couldn't make or break a case.I suppose that the thinking is, that 
if the subscriber is guilty of child porn, and they can prove what site he 
downloaded from and sent it to, they could go after that web host for 
hosting the smut. Either way, putting it off to the local ISP to keep 
records seems far fetched. Pete DavisNoDial.netMac 
Dearman wrote: 
You have enough clients that it would bankrupt you to build a server to log
your HTTP  SMTP traffic? I don't think it would be that difficult or
expensive, but agree that it would be a major PITA! I am pretty sure we will
never be faced with this as the majority of us aren't reliable enough to
even set this up nor responsible enough to keep up with it reliably for two
years.

Mac Dearman

-

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-05 Thread George Rogato

Thank you Marlon.

I can not recall any issues between Mark or anyone else in wispa and I 
can't imagine that a difference of opinion would put somebody on the 
outside.
I would not want to see differences of opinions put anyone on the 
outside. This organization is made up of many different people with many 
different ideas and personally, I want to hear them all, because that is 
how we come to a consensus. I would hope that even if we disagree with 
each other at times, we still respect each other regardless.


George


Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:


- Original Message - From: Mark Koskenmaki [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 10:40 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?



Because Im personna non grata with WISPA and Part-15.


sigh

Says who?  Last I knew you were a paid member.  And you've pulled no 
Glass style manuvers.  You've not been kicked out of the asso. or 
anything.


You don't agree with some of the WISPA official stands, and that's ok.  
This is the WISPA asso. not the Koskenmaki asso!  Just like it's not the 
Schafer asso.  I don't like everything that WISPA does or stands for. 
Heck, I don't always like everything *I* write on WISPA's behalf  
But it's a group effort, or at least supposed to be.  I don't take it 
personally, though it's often frustrating as hell (USF and our totaly 
lack of any official response comes directly to mind).




I don't share the same political goals, and as such,  I'm not in any
position to do squat.


OK, I can accept that.  But that's YOUR possition, not one of WISPA's 
or, I believe, most of the WISPA membership.




After being threatened by both WISPA people and Part-15 people, being 
told
to shut up and go away, I don't figure I have much influence around 
either
place.   But, since the stories DID appear in several public news 
outlets, I

figured at least someone would notice and care enough to comment.


You were asked to let a dead horse die.  That's not the same as shut up 
and go away.  It's only shut up!!!  Big Grin




And I figure this ends my ability to be on this list, as well.


I don't see why.  Unless you just can't stand not getting your way. 
hehehehehe


Lighten up Mark.  This is a team sport.  It's football, not golf.  You 
don't get to play every hole your way and you don't get to get mad when 
the coaches call a play you don't like.  You still have a job to do for 
your industry.  Do your best and no one here will ever hold that against 
you.


laters,
marlon




See ya.

North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!
 



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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-05 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181

I'm really at a bit of a loss as to how to deal with your question David.

What's a trade association do for you?  (You being generic here)  The 
idea that the question was asked indicates to me that one doesn't understand 
what a trade group is for.


It's not, at least not at first, there to put money in your pocket.  Nor is 
it there to help you control your costs.  Oh sure, most of those things can 
and will happen at some point.  But it takes time, people and money to make 
any of that happen.


At this stage WISPA is there to protect our industry  If you don't 
support WISPA we'll not be able to have any voice at all at the FCC or in 
congress.  Especially the FCC.


You see, we talked to folks at the FCC before we set WISPA up.  They made it 
clear that they'd much rather deal with a trade org. than many individuals. 
Seems that they don't want to deal with the petty differences of opinion 
either!  They want a stand all hashed out before it gets to them wherever 
that's possible.


No one should, at this stage of the game, be asking what WISPA will do for 
them.  You should all be asking what you can do for WISPA.


Dialup ISPs took it in the shorts far more often than they ever should have. 
I'm in no mood to put up with that with wireless too.  It's mostly a safety 
in numbers thing.


We deliberately made the dues so low that there's NO reason people can't 
join.  Heck, on principal alone people should be flocking to us.


If you are one of those frustrated that WISPA isn't doing enough, join the 
club.  We're all frustrated about that.  But just how many more hundreds 
(thousands) of hours should I have to take away from my business and my 
family when others won't lift a finger?  How does the saying go?  United we 
stand, divided we fall.  Are those who haven't joined uniters or dividers?


That help?
marlon

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: David Sovereen [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 7:33 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?



I agree with your sentiments completely.

One needs to ask, though, why aren't ISPs supporting WISPA?  The answer 
is

more than likely the same answer most small businesses give when asked why
they don't join industry associations: it's not worthwhile... it costs 
more

money than the benefits of membership are worth.

My company is not a member of WISPA.  And at this point, I don't see what
benefit membership in WISPA would give me.  I'm a believer in the strength
of numbers and joining ranks for greater good.  That's why I support NFIB
and USIIA, as well as local organizations in my state and community.

Why should I send $250 to WISPA?

Dave

989-837-3790 x 151
989-837-3780 fax

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.mercury.net

129 Ashman St, Midland, MI  48640
- Original Message - 
From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 5:46 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?



The problem with all of this is that most ISP's wireless or land line
historically do not get involved in a trade association and work
together for the common good.

Land line ISP's didn't join together and wisps are not joining together
either.

Here WISPA has been created and hardly anyone is taking advantage of
joining WISPA and trying to get anything done.

This is the sad thing that is discouraging, that an organization has
been created and nobody is taking advantage of it.
It's also discouraging to hear that some people say or imply that WISPA
is a good old boys club run by insiders, when in actuality WISPA is an
organization wide open that just about anyone in the wisp business can
join run for office get elected and take charge.

Very disappointing, and this is what makes me scream when I hear posts
like Roberts the other day accusing board members of getting paid with
perks or Marks suggestion this morning that the board is on the inside
with this stuff.

You guys, the wisps that are out in the fields doing the wisp business
should be trying harder to get the entire wisp community to join this
organization and to get something accomplished.

My poll for a working group for muni wireless had 2 respondents.
Only 2 wisps are interested or think they need help with muni wireless?
Hard to believe.



--
George Rogato

Welcome to WISPA

www.wispa.org

http://signup.wispa.org/
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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-05 Thread David Sovereen
Where can I find out what WISPA's official positions are?  Where can I see
the letters and actions WISPA has sent on behalf of its members?  The root
of my questions is, How do I know that the money I spend is making a
difference?

I've joined organizations before.  I send them my check or give them a
credit card number and never hear from them again... until they want more
money.  I don't support my local Chamber of Commerce for this exact reason.
What does my local Chamber of Commerce do to deserve my money?  After a
year, I didn't know, so I cancelled my membership.

Dave

989-837-3790 x 151
989-837-3780 fax

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.mercury.net

129 Ashman St, Midland, MI  48640
- Original Message - 
From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?


 I'm really at a bit of a loss as to how to deal with your question David.

 What's a trade association do for you?  (You being generic here)  The
 idea that the question was asked indicates to me that one doesn't
understand
 what a trade group is for.

 It's not, at least not at first, there to put money in your pocket.  Nor
is
 it there to help you control your costs.  Oh sure, most of those things
can
 and will happen at some point.  But it takes time, people and money to
make
 any of that happen.

 At this stage WISPA is there to protect our industry  If you don't
 support WISPA we'll not be able to have any voice at all at the FCC or in
 congress.  Especially the FCC.

 You see, we talked to folks at the FCC before we set WISPA up.  They made
it
 clear that they'd much rather deal with a trade org. than many
individuals.
 Seems that they don't want to deal with the petty differences of opinion
 either!  They want a stand all hashed out before it gets to them wherever
 that's possible.

 No one should, at this stage of the game, be asking what WISPA will do for
 them.  You should all be asking what you can do for WISPA.

 Dialup ISPs took it in the shorts far more often than they ever should
have.
 I'm in no mood to put up with that with wireless too.  It's mostly a
safety
 in numbers thing.

 We deliberately made the dues so low that there's NO reason people can't
 join.  Heck, on principal alone people should be flocking to us.

 If you are one of those frustrated that WISPA isn't doing enough, join the
 club.  We're all frustrated about that.  But just how many more hundreds
 (thousands) of hours should I have to take away from my business and
my
 family when others won't lift a finger?  How does the saying go?  United
we
 stand, divided we fall.  Are those who haven't joined uniters or dividers?

 That help?
 marlon

 Marlon
 (509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
 (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
 64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
 www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
 www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



 - Original Message - 
 From: David Sovereen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 7:33 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?


 I agree with your sentiments completely.
 
  One needs to ask, though, why aren't ISPs supporting WISPA?  The
answer
  is
  more than likely the same answer most small businesses give when asked
why
  they don't join industry associations: it's not worthwhile... it costs
  more
  money than the benefits of membership are worth.
 
  My company is not a member of WISPA.  And at this point, I don't see
what
  benefit membership in WISPA would give me.  I'm a believer in the
strength
  of numbers and joining ranks for greater good.  That's why I support
NFIB
  and USIIA, as well as local organizations in my state and community.
 
  Why should I send $250 to WISPA?
 
  Dave
 
  989-837-3790 x 151
  989-837-3780 fax
 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  www.mercury.net
 
  129 Ashman St, Midland, MI  48640
  - Original Message - 
  From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
  Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 5:46 PM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
 
 
  The problem with all of this is that most ISP's wireless or land line
  historically do not get involved in a trade association and work
  together for the common good.
 
  Land line ISP's didn't join together and wisps are not joining together
  either.
 
  Here WISPA has been created and hardly anyone is taking advantage of
  joining WISPA and trying to get anything done.
 
  This is the sad thing that is discouraging, that an organization has
  been created and nobody is taking advantage of it.
  It's also discouraging to hear that some people say or imply that WISPA
  is a good old boys club run by insiders, when in actuality WISPA is an
  organization wide open that just about

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand

2006-06-05 Thread Sam Tetherow
I want to preface this email with the statement that I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT 
support this law, it is an invasion of privacy and places an undue 
burden of responsibility on an ISP.


Now that being said, as I read the article, and as some have pointed out 
the information being requested for archive is merely websites visited 
and email address sent to. This information is trivial to gather and 
really not that burdensome to archive. I currently run about 4Mbps-5Mbps 
of traffic from 8am to midnight and a months worth of these logs 
uncompressed only takes up about 7G of space. Compression will save me 
60% of that so it is more like 3G for a month of 4-5Mbps. This fits 
nicely on a single DVD-R for achiving once a month. Even scaling this up 
to 30X the traffic for a DVD/day gets you 120-150Mbps daily average traffic.


Your total cost on something like this would be
1. a Mikrotik box (or any router that supports the netflow protocol) to 
sit right before your edge router (or as your edge router).

2. A PC to capture the data with a DVD+-R drive total cost  $500.
3. And then a spindle of DVD media at ~ $15/100 DVDs.

This puts the grand total in at well under $2000 one time cost and then 
whatever personnel cost you want to assign to burning a DVD once a 
month, or if you are lucky enough to have enough customers to require 
120Mbps, once a day.


I think it is important if we are going to draft something up to address 
this issue that we address it with facts. For most ISPs coming up with 
the money to achieve this while a PITA is not going to cause the 
business to go bankrupt. I achieved this using equipment I already have 
in place. My DS3 MT router sends the netflow data to the box I use for 
system/network monitoring. I currently do not archive this data to DVD 
because I have only been collecting it for a month, but I highly doubt I 
will unless required to by law. The only reason I collect this data is 
for IP accounting and troubleshooting and will probably keep no more 
than a month or two of the full data. But it sure comes in handy when a 
customer calls up and says that they haven't had internet for the past 2 
weeks and I can pull up the charts that show they have. Or they say that 
things have been running real slow lately and I can look at the flow 
data and see that their kids have been using P2P applications or doing 
large FTP downloads.


Sam Tetherow
Sandhills Wireless

Butch Evans wrote:

On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, George Rogato wrote:

1) Does the government have a right to know the actions of Americans 
on the internet?


This is not really at issue. At least it is not really of any concern 
for us here.


2) Is this a responsibility of the ISP to bear the burden of 
gathering this information or should the burden be carried by the 
feds themselves with little or no cost to the ISP?


THIS is the real issue that ISPs face. The problem that we all have 
with this is multifaceted. First, (and perhaps most importantly) is 
the cost that many ISPs will face to comply with the requirements. In 
many cases, this cost will be both direct (for hardware) and indirect 
(network reconfiguration). Also, many ISPs are set up in such a way 
that compliance will be nearly impossible. Let me provide just a 
couple examples.


First, many ISPs use private IP space internally for their customers. 
For these ISPs, any monitoring done by an outside entity (i.e. ATT) 
will be completely useless.


Another example, would be the many ISPs that have several diverse 
networks. I have several customers that have 3 or 4 distinct networks 
(one has 8). These ISPs would be required to store this data in either 
one location, or purchase the equipment for each network.


It is my belief that WISPA should create a stance against any 
requirement for WISPs to store customer traffic patterns for any 
period. The very idea is hideously un-American in the first place. Be 
that as it may, it is technically difficult, and financially unfair 
for many smaller ISPs to have to store this information at all.


This thread started out as we should not be allowing the government 
to know our every move. This is a political discussion that can not 
and should not be decided by an ISP, but rather the entire country. 
We don't have any jurisdiction on issues such as this.


George, this is one area where we disagree. This is NOT a political 
discussion. This is an issue that directly impacts every ISP 
(wireless or wired). It is, perhaps, true that the political 
implications are what Mark was driving at, but the issue at hand is 
NOT political in nature. It IS financial and technical.


We do however have a right to contest who is responsible for the 
burden of gathering this information.


OK. If that is the case, wouldn't you agree that this is something 
that SHOULD be addressed by WISPA? I don't agree with much that Mark 
had to say (really, it was the implications he made that I disagreed 
with), but his point that there should 

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-05 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181

You just need to pay attention here and on the private list.

It would be nice if someone had the time to work on the web site more.  So 
that everyone would know what we're going right now!  But those of us 
working are too busy doing and have no time for bragging about it.  grin


Watch and learn Dave.  One thing I'm very proud of is that WISPA has never 
hid anything that it does.  We are the most open group I've ever been 
around.


Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: David Sovereen [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 10:58 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?



Where can I find out what WISPA's official positions are?  Where can I see
the letters and actions WISPA has sent on behalf of its members?  The root
of my questions is, How do I know that the money I spend is making a
difference?

I've joined organizations before.  I send them my check or give them a
credit card number and never hear from them again... until they want more
money.  I don't support my local Chamber of Commerce for this exact 
reason.

What does my local Chamber of Commerce do to deserve my money?  After a
year, I didn't know, so I cancelled my membership.

Dave

989-837-3790 x 151
989-837-3780 fax

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.mercury.net

129 Ashman St, Midland, MI  48640
- Original Message - 
From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?



I'm really at a bit of a loss as to how to deal with your question David.

What's a trade association do for you?  (You being generic here)  The
idea that the question was asked indicates to me that one doesn't

understand

what a trade group is for.

It's not, at least not at first, there to put money in your pocket.  Nor

is

it there to help you control your costs.  Oh sure, most of those things

can

and will happen at some point.  But it takes time, people and money to

make

any of that happen.

At this stage WISPA is there to protect our industry  If you don't
support WISPA we'll not be able to have any voice at all at the FCC or in
congress.  Especially the FCC.

You see, we talked to folks at the FCC before we set WISPA up.  They made

it

clear that they'd much rather deal with a trade org. than many

individuals.

Seems that they don't want to deal with the petty differences of opinion
either!  They want a stand all hashed out before it gets to them wherever
that's possible.

No one should, at this stage of the game, be asking what WISPA will do 
for

them.  You should all be asking what you can do for WISPA.

Dialup ISPs took it in the shorts far more often than they ever should

have.

I'm in no mood to put up with that with wireless too.  It's mostly a

safety

in numbers thing.

We deliberately made the dues so low that there's NO reason people can't
join.  Heck, on principal alone people should be flocking to us.

If you are one of those frustrated that WISPA isn't doing enough, join 
the

club.  We're all frustrated about that.  But just how many more hundreds
(thousands) of hours should I have to take away from my business and

my

family when others won't lift a finger?  How does the saying go?  United

we
stand, divided we fall.  Are those who haven't joined uniters or 
dividers?


That help?
marlon

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: David Sovereen [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 7:33 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?


I agree with your sentiments completely.

 One needs to ask, though, why aren't ISPs supporting WISPA?  The

answer

 is
 more than likely the same answer most small businesses give when asked

why

 they don't join industry associations: it's not worthwhile... it costs
 more
 money than the benefits of membership are worth.

 My company is not a member of WISPA.  And at this point, I don't see

what

 benefit membership in WISPA would give me.  I'm a believer in the

strength

 of numbers and joining ranks for greater good.  That's why I support

NFIB

 and USIIA, as well as local organizations in my state and community.

 Why should I send $250 to WISPA?

 Dave

 989-837-3790 x 151
 989-837-3780 fax

 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 www.mercury.net

 129 Ashman St, Midland

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-05 Thread David Sovereen
I've only been on the list for about four weeks.  I learned about it at the
Mikrotik User Meeting in Dallas from a few of the other attendees.

Since I've been on, there hasn't been any discussion of what WISPA is doing
on the legislative front.  If all of the good stuff is hiding in the members
only area, and you don't tell people about the good stuff hiding in there on
your public web site, how are enticing people to join?  If you want people's
money, you need to market to them.

I finally made it through the USIIA Bulletin.  According to them, the data
retention bill isn't likely to be passed.  Quote, The reality is that such
legislation would never pass the Congress, and that the DOJ will likely back
down from the issue in the face of public criticism and concerns.  If that
weren't the case, I'd probably get a USIIA Alert asking me to e-mail my
congresspeople.  I feel this type of information is valuable.

Dave

989-837-3790 x 151
989-837-3780 fax

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.mercury.net

129 Ashman St, Midland, MI  48640
- Original Message - 
From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 2:44 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?


 You just need to pay attention here and on the private list.

 It would be nice if someone had the time to work on the web site more.  So
 that everyone would know what we're going right now!  But those of us
 working are too busy doing and have no time for bragging about it.  grin

 Watch and learn Dave.  One thing I'm very proud of is that WISPA has never
 hid anything that it does.  We are the most open group I've ever been
 around.

 Marlon
 (509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
 (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
 64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
 www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
 www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



 - Original Message - 
 From: David Sovereen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 10:58 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?


  Where can I find out what WISPA's official positions are?  Where can I
see
  the letters and actions WISPA has sent on behalf of its members?  The
root
  of my questions is, How do I know that the money I spend is making a
  difference?
 
  I've joined organizations before.  I send them my check or give them a
  credit card number and never hear from them again... until they want
more
  money.  I don't support my local Chamber of Commerce for this exact
  reason.
  What does my local Chamber of Commerce do to deserve my money?  After a
  year, I didn't know, so I cancelled my membership.
 
  Dave
 
  989-837-3790 x 151
  989-837-3780 fax
 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  www.mercury.net
 
  129 Ashman St, Midland, MI  48640
  - Original Message - 
  From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
  Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 1:33 PM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
 
 
  I'm really at a bit of a loss as to how to deal with your question
David.
 
  What's a trade association do for you?  (You being generic here)
The
  idea that the question was asked indicates to me that one doesn't
  understand
  what a trade group is for.
 
  It's not, at least not at first, there to put money in your pocket.
Nor
  is
  it there to help you control your costs.  Oh sure, most of those things
  can
  and will happen at some point.  But it takes time, people and money to
  make
  any of that happen.
 
  At this stage WISPA is there to protect our industry  If you don't
  support WISPA we'll not be able to have any voice at all at the FCC or
in
  congress.  Especially the FCC.
 
  You see, we talked to folks at the FCC before we set WISPA up.  They
made
  it
  clear that they'd much rather deal with a trade org. than many
  individuals.
  Seems that they don't want to deal with the petty differences of
opinion
  either!  They want a stand all hashed out before it gets to them
wherever
  that's possible.
 
  No one should, at this stage of the game, be asking what WISPA will do
  for
  them.  You should all be asking what you can do for WISPA.
 
  Dialup ISPs took it in the shorts far more often than they ever should
  have.
  I'm in no mood to put up with that with wireless too.  It's mostly a
  safety
  in numbers thing.
 
  We deliberately made the dues so low that there's NO reason people
can't
  join.  Heck, on principal alone people should be flocking to us.
 
  If you are one of those frustrated that WISPA isn't doing enough, join
  the
  club.  We're all frustrated about that.  But just how many more
hundreds
  (thousands) of hours should I have to take away from my business
and
  my
  family when others won't lift a finger?  How does the saying go?
United
  we

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-05 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181


- Original Message - 
From: David Sovereen [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 12:01 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?


I've only been on the list for about four weeks.  I learned about it at 
the

Mikrotik User Meeting in Dallas from a few of the other attendees.

Since I've been on, there hasn't been any discussion of what WISPA is 
doing
on the legislative front.  If all of the good stuff is hiding in the 
members
only area, and you don't tell people about the good stuff hiding in there 
on
your public web site, how are enticing people to join?  If you want 
people's

money, you need to market to them.


If you've been here for 4 weeks and haven't seen any talk about the l-mds 
(???) 900mhz spectrum grab, USF fund reform, or TV Whitespaces issues you've 
not been paying close enough attention!


We'd love to have someone put our a news letter for us.  Are you 
volunteering?  Lord knows the FCC group here is rarely stationary!


marlon


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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-05 Thread Carl A Jeptha




last time I thought Wispa was international and if it is not I may as
well cancel my membership.

It does appear that USA Politics and legislation has been on the
forefront alot. Just asking??
You have a Good Day now,


Carl A Jeptha
http://www.airnet.ca
office 905 349-2084
Emergency only Pager 905 377-6900
skype cajeptha



David Sovereen wrote:

  I've only been on the list for about four weeks.  I learned about it at the
Mikrotik User Meeting in Dallas from a few of the other attendees.

Since I've been on, there hasn't been any discussion of what WISPA is doing
on the legislative front.  If all of the good stuff is hiding in the members
only area, and you don't tell people about the good stuff hiding in there on
your public web site, how are enticing people to join?  If you want people's
money, you need to market to them.

I finally made it through the USIIA Bulletin.  According to them, the data
retention bill isn't likely to be passed.  Quote, "The reality is that such
legislation would never pass the Congress, and that the DOJ will likely back
down from the issue in the face of public criticism and concerns."  If that
weren't the case, I'd probably get a USIIA Alert asking me to e-mail my
congresspeople.  I feel this type of information is valuable.

Dave

989-837-3790 x 151
989-837-3780 fax

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.mercury.net

129 Ashman St, Midland, MI  48640
- Original Message - 
From: "Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 2:44 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?


  
  
You just need to pay attention here and on the private list.

It would be nice if someone had the time to work on the web site more.  So
that everyone would know what we're going right now!  But those of us
working are too busy doing and have no time for bragging about it.  grin

Watch and learn Dave.  One thing I'm very proud of is that WISPA has never
hid anything that it does.  We are the most open group I've ever been
around.

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: "David Sovereen" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 10:58 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?




  Where can I find out what WISPA's official positions are?  Where can I
  

  
  see
  
  

  the letters and actions WISPA has sent on behalf of its members?  The
  

  
  root
  
  

  of my questions is, "How do I know that the money I spend is making a
difference?"

I've joined organizations before.  I send them my check or give them a
credit card number and never hear from them again... until they want
  

  
  more
  
  

  money.  I don't support my local Chamber of Commerce for this exact
reason.
What does my local Chamber of Commerce do to deserve my money?  After a
year, I didn't know, so I cancelled my membership.

Dave

989-837-3790 x 151
989-837-3780 fax

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.mercury.net

129 Ashman St, Midland, MI  48640
- Original Message - 
From: "Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?


  
  
I'm really at a bit of a loss as to how to deal with your question

  

  
  David.
  
  

  
What's a trade association do for you?  (You being generic here)

  

  
  The
  
  

  
idea that the question was asked indicates to me that one doesn't

  
  understand
  
  
what a trade group is for.

It's not, at least not at first, there to put money in your pocket.

  

  
  Nor
  
  

  is
  
  
it there to help you control your costs.  Oh sure, most of those things

  
  can
  
  
and will happen at some point.  But it takes time, people and money to

  
  make
  
  
any of that happen.

At this stage WISPA is there to protect our industry  If you don't
support WISPA we'll not be able to have any voice at all at the FCC or

  

  
  in
  
  

  
congress.  Especially the FCC.

You see, we talked to folks at the FCC before we set WISPA up.  They

  

  
  made
  
  

  it
  
  
clear that they'd much rather deal with a trade org. than many

  
  individuals.
   

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-05 Thread Peter R.

There are still things that can be learned for our Canadian members.
Perhaps some of the Canadian members can form a committee to watch 
regulatory, legislative, and politics in Canada.
There are parallels between the US  Canada and they should be taken 
advantage of.


- Peter

Carl A Jeptha wrote:

last time I thought Wispa was international and if it is not I may as 
well cancel my membership.


It does appear that USA Politics and legislation has been on the 
forefront alot. Just asking??


You have a Good Day now,


Carl A Jeptha
http://www.airnet.ca
office 905 349-2084
Emergency only Pager 905 377-6900
skype cajeptha
 


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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread George Rogato

I don't know Mark, why don't you go do something about it.
George

Mark Koskenmaki wrote:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060601/ts_nm/security_internet_usa_dc

Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop this kinda stuff?

Or, is this issue like certain others, where WISPA founders take contrary
positions to the rest of the members and side with big brother and encourage
the feds to dig into and regulate our business, in some apparent hope of
ingratiating themselves with the regulators?

AT LEAST could we have the leadership tell us what THEY think of this?

North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

-



--
George Rogato

Welcome to WISPA

www.wispa.org

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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread David E. Smith
Mark Koskenmaki wrote:
 Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop this kinda stuff?

   
Personally, I'm counting on it, so I can get the company to buy me that
multi-terabyte NAS I've always wanted. I'm running out of disk space at
home to store all my pr0n.

David Smith
MVN.net
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RE: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Mac Dearman
I wouldn't imagine that this responsibility would fall on us WISPs, but to
our upstream providers like BellSouth...etc. Why would they want to deal
with the 20,000 piss ants of the world when all they have to do is back up
stream two hops and catch all the traffic? Common sense tells me this will
not fall on us!


Mac 




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 1:19 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060601/ts_nm/security_internet_usa_dc

Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop this kinda stuff?

Or, is this issue like certain others, where WISPA founders take contrary
positions to the rest of the members and side with big brother and encourage
the feds to dig into and regulate our business, in some apparent hope of
ingratiating themselves with the regulators?

AT LEAST could we have the leadership tell us what THEY think of this?

North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

-

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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Mark Koskenmaki
Common sense tells you that the big boys will lobby to force the last mile
provider to log it all, so as to bankrupt the competition.




North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

-
- Original Message - 
From: Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 10:21 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?


 I wouldn't imagine that this responsibility would fall on us WISPs, but to
 our upstream providers like BellSouth...etc. Why would they want to deal
 with the 20,000 piss ants of the world when all they have to do is back up
 stream two hops and catch all the traffic? Common sense tells me this will
 not fall on us!


 Mac




 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki
 Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 1:19 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

 http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060601/ts_nm/security_internet_usa_dc

 Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop this kinda stuff?

 Or, is this issue like certain others, where WISPA founders take contrary
 positions to the rest of the members and side with big brother and
encourage
 the feds to dig into and regulate our business, in some apparent hope of
 ingratiating themselves with the regulators?

 AT LEAST could we have the leadership tell us what THEY think of this?

 North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
 personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
 sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
 Fast Internet, NO WIRES!
 --
--
 -

 -- 
 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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RE: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Mac Dearman
You have enough clients that it would bankrupt you to build a server to log
your HTTP  SMTP traffic? I don't think it would be that difficult or
expensive, but agree that it would be a major PITA! I am pretty sure we will
never be faced with this as the majority of us aren't reliable enough to
even set this up nor responsible enough to keep up with it reliably for two
years.

Mac Dearman

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 12:34 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

Common sense tells you that the big boys will lobby to force the last mile
provider to log it all, so as to bankrupt the competition.




North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

-
- Original Message - 
From: Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 10:21 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?


 I wouldn't imagine that this responsibility would fall on us WISPs, but to
 our upstream providers like BellSouth...etc. Why would they want to deal
 with the 20,000 piss ants of the world when all they have to do is back up
 stream two hops and catch all the traffic? Common sense tells me this will
 not fall on us!


 Mac




 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki
 Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 1:19 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

 http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060601/ts_nm/security_internet_usa_dc

 Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop this kinda stuff?

 Or, is this issue like certain others, where WISPA founders take contrary
 positions to the rest of the members and side with big brother and
encourage
 the feds to dig into and regulate our business, in some apparent hope of
 ingratiating themselves with the regulators?

 AT LEAST could we have the leadership tell us what THEY think of this?

 North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
 personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
 sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
 Fast Internet, NO WIRES!
 --
--
 -

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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Mark Koskenmaki
Because Im personna non grata with WISPA and Part-15.

I don't share the same political goals, and as such,  I'm not in any
position to do squat.

After being threatened by both WISPA people and Part-15 people, being told
to shut up and go away, I don't figure I have much influence around either
place.   But, since the stories DID appear in several public news outlets, I
figured at least someone would notice and care enough to comment.

And I figure this ends my ability to be on this list, as well.

See ya.

North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

-
- Original Message - 
From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 12:22 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?


 I don't know Mark, why don't you go do something about it.
 George

 Mark Koskenmaki wrote:
  http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060601/ts_nm/security_internet_usa_dc
 
  Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop this kinda stuff?
 
  Or, is this issue like certain others, where WISPA founders take
contrary
  positions to the rest of the members and side with big brother and
encourage
  the feds to dig into and regulate our business, in some apparent hope of
  ingratiating themselves with the regulators?
 
  AT LEAST could we have the leadership tell us what THEY think of this?
 
  North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
  personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
  sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
  Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

 --
--
  -
 

 -- 
 George Rogato

 Welcome to WISPA

 www.wispa.org

 http://signup.wispa.org/
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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Mark Koskenmaki

- Original Message - 
From: Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 10:39 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?


 You have enough clients that it would bankrupt you to build a server to
log
 your HTTP  SMTP traffic? I don't think it would be that difficult or
 expensive, but agree that it would be a major PITA! I am pretty sure we
will
 never be faced with this as the majority of us aren't reliable enough to
 even set this up nor responsible enough to keep up with it reliably for
two
 years.

How many customers ya got, Mac?

Mine use around 3-4 gigs a month of traffic.   I dunno what you're thinking,
but they wanted us to log the CONTENT of all that traffic, meaning...we're
going to dupe all the traffic on our network, time-stamped and tagged as to
who did what, for 2 years - searchable by site, IP, destination, or possibly
by content, as well.

When it hits scores or hundreds of Terabytes to log it for 2 years... Plus
the ability to backhaul ALL of your traffic to a data storage site... Or a
bunch of data storage sites, when we have wide-spread and unconnected
networks...   It means that WISP's will get hammered like you've never seen.
Heck, just the traffic from my database machine to the gateway for 45
customers logged in excess of 2 gigs / mo and all it did was collect
statistics on the amount of traffic per customer.

Given, that's a worst-case scenario... but we're not exactly batting good at
all lately.   And should we get a D administration or majority control,
we're going to find that this would be a best case, not worst case.
Their intrusion plans are WAY worse.

Frankly, I'm disgusted.   A lot of people who I thought were sensible people
have rushed headlong with welcoming arms to the regulators, all in HOPES of
catching a few dollars falling from the table.

Let's just say I'm not cynical.   I'm livid, and have been for quite some
time now.


North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

-


 Mac Dearman

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki
 Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 12:34 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

 Common sense tells you that the big boys will lobby to force the last mile
 provider to log it all, so as to bankrupt the competition.




 North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
 personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
 sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
 Fast Internet, NO WIRES!
 --
--
 -
 - Original Message - 
 From: Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 10:21 AM
 Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?


  I wouldn't imagine that this responsibility would fall on us WISPs, but
to
  our upstream providers like BellSouth...etc. Why would they want to deal
  with the 20,000 piss ants of the world when all they have to do is back
up
  stream two hops and catch all the traffic? Common sense tells me this
will
  not fall on us!
 
 
  Mac
 
 
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
  Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki
  Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 1:19 AM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
 
  http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060601/ts_nm/security_internet_usa_dc
 
  Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop this kinda stuff?
 
  Or, is this issue like certain others, where WISPA founders take
contrary
  positions to the rest of the members and side with big brother and
 encourage
  the feds to dig into and regulate our business, in some apparent hope of
  ingratiating themselves with the regulators?
 
  AT LEAST could we have the leadership tell us what THEY think of this?
 
  North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
  personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
  sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
  Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

 --
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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Lonnie Nunweiler

I doubt that my upstream provider has any records of my customer IP
assignments, so it is my belief that any records keeping and logging
would fall on me.  I'm not big but I do NOT consider my operation as
being run by piss ants either.

Do you consider the majority of WISP's to be run by piss ants and not
worthy of any recognition and responsibility?  I sincerely hope not
because I have no desire to be associated with such a group.

Lonnie

On 6/4/06, Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I wouldn't imagine that this responsibility would fall on us WISPs, but to
our upstream providers like BellSouth...etc. Why would they want to deal
with the 20,000 piss ants of the world when all they have to do is back up
stream two hops and catch all the traffic? Common sense tells me this will
not fall on us!


Mac




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 1:19 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060601/ts_nm/security_internet_usa_dc

Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop this kinda stuff?

Or, is this issue like certain others, where WISPA founders take contrary
positions to the rest of the members and side with big brother and encourage
the feds to dig into and regulate our business, in some apparent hope of
ingratiating themselves with the regulators?

AT LEAST could we have the leadership tell us what THEY think of this?

North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

-

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http://www.star-os.com/
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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread George Rogato

Mark
I didn't realize you were persona non grata with wispa. It's the first 
that I have heard this.


I do think that you do have a radical political belief and I think that 
the wireless lists are generally not interested in discussing politics 
because it is so divisive.


But, if you or any other member of wispa want to create a topic specific 
work group that's goal is to better our industry, you step forward off 
list to me with your idea and I will present it to the board for 
approval of a separate email list.
But keep in mind, we do not want another ISP-Chat with all that went 
with it. This association is not created for the reds to lob mickeys at 
the blues and visa versa or to impose their political beliefs on others.


It has to be a wisp centric discussion with a goal of impacting change 
and benefit to our member wisps and the industry in general.


sincerely

George



Mark Koskenmaki wrote:

Because Im personna non grata with WISPA and Part-15.

I don't share the same political goals, and as such,  I'm not in any
position to do squat.

After being threatened by both WISPA people and Part-15 people, being told
to shut up and go away, I don't figure I have much influence around either
place.   But, since the stories DID appear in several public news outlets, I
figured at least someone would notice and care enough to comment.

And I figure this ends my ability to be on this list, as well.

See ya.

North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

-
- Original Message - 
From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 12:22 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?




I don't know Mark, why don't you go do something about it.
George

Mark Koskenmaki wrote:


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060601/ts_nm/security_internet_usa_dc

Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop this kinda stuff?

Or, is this issue like certain others, where WISPA founders take


contrary


positions to the rest of the members and side with big brother and


encourage


the feds to dig into and regulate our business, in some apparent hope of
ingratiating themselves with the regulators?

AT LEAST could we have the leadership tell us what THEY think of this?

North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!


--


--


-



--
George Rogato

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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread George Rogato
I was assuming the same thing. I thought that European isps were already 
required to do this.

George

Mac Dearman wrote:

I wouldn't imagine that this responsibility would fall on us WISPs, but to
our upstream providers like BellSouth...etc. Why would they want to deal
with the 20,000 piss ants of the world when all they have to do is back up
stream two hops and catch all the traffic? Common sense tells me this will
not fall on us!


Mac 





-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 1:19 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060601/ts_nm/security_internet_usa_dc

Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop this kinda stuff?

Or, is this issue like certain others, where WISPA founders take contrary
positions to the rest of the members and side with big brother and encourage
the feds to dig into and regulate our business, in some apparent hope of
ingratiating themselves with the regulators?

AT LEAST could we have the leadership tell us what THEY think of this?

North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

-



--
George Rogato

Welcome to WISPA

www.wispa.org

http://signup.wispa.org/
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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Lonnie Nunweiler

Just try and imagine how much storage you would require for 2 years
worth of traffic.  Guys are joking about it being good so they can get
the Terabyte server they always wanted.  How about when they have to
buy 50 of them?

Also consider the task of assigning IP addresses and maintaining that
list to always be up to date and correct.

If this requirement is made I do expect you will see an awful lot of
guys stop doing this since the paperwork and records keeping would be
an added chore and a possible huge expense.  If you elect to ignore it
if it is ever required expect to be asked to do jail time and pay huge
fines.

Make light of this all you want, but I believe that your smugness will
not last long if it becomes a requirement.

Lonnie

On 6/4/06, Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

You have enough clients that it would bankrupt you to build a server to log
your HTTP  SMTP traffic? I don't think it would be that difficult or
expensive, but agree that it would be a major PITA! I am pretty sure we will
never be faced with this as the majority of us aren't reliable enough to
even set this up nor responsible enough to keep up with it reliably for two
years.

Mac Dearman

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 12:34 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

Common sense tells you that the big boys will lobby to force the last mile
provider to log it all, so as to bankrupt the competition.




North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

-
- Original Message -
From: Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 10:21 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?


 I wouldn't imagine that this responsibility would fall on us WISPs, but to
 our upstream providers like BellSouth...etc. Why would they want to deal
 with the 20,000 piss ants of the world when all they have to do is back up
 stream two hops and catch all the traffic? Common sense tells me this will
 not fall on us!


 Mac




 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki
 Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 1:19 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

 http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060601/ts_nm/security_internet_usa_dc

 Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop this kinda stuff?

 Or, is this issue like certain others, where WISPA founders take contrary
 positions to the rest of the members and side with big brother and
encourage
 the feds to dig into and regulate our business, in some apparent hope of
 ingratiating themselves with the regulators?

 AT LEAST could we have the leadership tell us what THEY think of this?

 North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
 personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
 sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
 Fast Internet, NO WIRES!
 --
--
 -

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Valemount Networks Corporation
http://www.star-os.com/
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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Mark Koskenmaki

- Original Message - 
From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?


 Mark
 I didn't realize you were persona non grata with wispa. It's the first
 that I have heard this.

 I do think that you do have a radical political belief and I think that
 the wireless lists are generally not interested in discussing politics
 because it is so divisive.

If radical is defined as get the government out of my business, where it
has no business sticking its nose, then I suppose I'm radical.

In which case, I'm proudly radical.   As you have seen, I really do not
come to any of the lists besides the now gone isp-chat to just harp
politics, but instead to discuss how politics business do intersect.

I don't think a single member of WISPA, including the board, falls
completely outside of the entrepreneur lable, and as such, our first
priority should be to retain the freedom to BE one.   And secondly, as
Americans, I don't think it is even political - well, not partisan, at
least - that we should defend our privacy,  and push back against the
excesses of political types in power.   That's just a given, one of those
it will never change types of things.   I was livid when someone I thought
shared these views had taken upon themselves to encourage the federal
government TO stick its nose into and regulate my business.   And it seems
almost nobody is arguing back.

Did anyone notice that the ACLU hasn't peeped a negative word against
requiring the logging of all internet use by individuals?   We're on our
own, as individuals, as citizens, as entrepreneurs, it seems.Now, WISPA
should not get into partisan lobbying or take partisan sides, or make
partisan arguments.   But it does seem to me that offically, we should have
a statement that says that WISPA, an association of ISP's, believes that
proposal X is wrong, is excessively intrusive, and so on and so forth.
And, whatever WISPA does say should be consistent from issue to issue.
Even a short discussion about the impacts of such mandates would be helpful.
What about security of those logs?   What is our liability for keeping them,
what is our liability if someone manages to get into them and steals
something valuable?These issues are the HEART of what an ISP association
is for...  IMO.

Does WISPA have money to lobby Congress?  Nope.   But just a short note to
the membership, naming the appropriate people to contact, could be really
helpful for those of us who regularly communicate with our customers.
Yeah, I'd like to notify them what the feds want me to do - and whose phone
lines to burn up telling them to get lost.

Let's just say I won't go quietly.   People gave lives to secure liberties
for me.   We should not dismiss them so easily.




 But, if you or any other member of wispa want to create a topic specific
 work group that's goal is to better our industry, you step forward off
 list to me with your idea and I will present it to the board for
 approval of a separate email list.
 But keep in mind, we do not want another ISP-Chat with all that went
 with it. This association is not created for the reds to lob mickeys at
 the blues and visa versa or to impose their political beliefs on others.

 It has to be a wisp centric discussion with a goal of impacting change
 and benefit to our member wisps and the industry in general.

 sincerely

 George

Appreciated, George... maybe someone who can will be interested in doing so.


North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

-




 Mark Koskenmaki wrote:
  Because Im personna non grata with WISPA and Part-15.
 
  I don't share the same political goals, and as such,  I'm not in any
  position to do squat.
 
  After being threatened by both WISPA people and Part-15 people, being
told
  to shut up and go away, I don't figure I have much influence around
either
  place.   But, since the stories DID appear in several public news
outlets, I
  figured at least someone would notice and care enough to comment.
 
  And I figure this ends my ability to be on this list, as well.
 
  See ya.
 
  North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
  personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
  sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
  Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

 --
--
  -
  - Original Message - 
  From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
  Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 12:22 AM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
 
 
 
 I don't know Mark, why don't you go do something about it.
 George
 
 Mark Koskenmaki wrote:
 
 http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060601

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Pete Davis




If/when the feds require it, I guess the way to do it would be to run
Ethereal in fully promiscuous mode on a mirrored port on a switch and
streaming it to server over the FBI's T1 to their server. When the
Federal government installs their T1 to my NOC, I would be willing to
upload it to them over their network resources to their server for them
to to keep on file for 2 years to never look at, otherwise, I don't
have any way to insure that the data hasn't been tampered with if it
stays in my file room. The government requiring me to keep two years
records of all network traffic seems unreasonable. If I were a defense
attorney defending a client whose evidence against him was stored by
some local ISP dinks on their servers for 24 months, I would certainly
question the chain of the evidence, and likely get it thrown out.

Here is an example of how this could go wrong: If I am an ISP operator
(I am actually) and I have a vendetta against a client (I don't, or at
least not one I want to discuss here) and I am in charge of keeping
network logs of all of that client's traffic, I could easily forge the
records to make it look like he had committed a horrific crime, like
reproducing the transcript of the commentary of a game without the
express written consent of Major League Baseball, and make it look like
it came from his IP address. I don't know how that record, 24 months
old, and sitting in my tape locker could ever be held as compelling
evidence against him, unless there was already an investigation, where
these records still probably couldn't make or break a case.

I suppose that the thinking is, that if the subscriber is guilty of
child porn, and they can prove what site he downloaded from and sent it
to, they could go after that web host for hosting the smut. Either way,
putting it off to the local ISP to keep records seems far fetched. 

Pete Davis
NoDial.net

Mac Dearman wrote:

  You have enough clients that it would bankrupt you to build a server to log
your HTTP  SMTP traffic? I don't think it would be that difficult or
expensive, but agree that it would be a major PITA! I am pretty sure we will
never be faced with this as the majority of us aren't reliable enough to
even set this up nor responsible enough to keep up with it reliably for two
years.

Mac Dearman

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 12:34 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

Common sense tells you that the big boys will lobby to force the last mile
provider to log it all, so as to bankrupt the competition.




North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

-
- Original Message - 
From: "Mac Dearman" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "'WISPA General List'" wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 10:21 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?


  
  
I wouldn't imagine that this responsibility would fall on us WISPs, but to
our upstream providers like BellSouth...etc. Why would they want to deal
with the 20,000 piss ants of the world when all they have to do is back up
stream two hops and catch all the traffic? Common sense tells me this will
not fall on us!


Mac




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 1:19 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060601/ts_nm/security_internet_usa_dc

Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop this kinda stuff?

Or, is this issue like certain others, where WISPA founders take contrary
positions to the rest of the members and side with big brother and

  
  encourage
  
  
the feds to dig into and regulate our business, in some apparent hope of
ingratiating themselves with the regulators?

AT LEAST could we have the leadership tell us what THEY think of this?

North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!
--

  
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RE: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Mac Dearman
Lonnie,

  When I used the term piss ant it was referring to the working guys of
this business. We all know how the ants work :-) doggedly for a small
portion of the whole.

 Once again, I think its ridiculous to even think that the Feds would allow
us - or put on us - - the responsibility of keeping those records. I really
will go one step further than that and say that it is not possible! Look at
it this way:
   Why would you sop the water off the ground with a sponge and then wring
the sponge out in the bucket when you could catch it in the bucket at the
spigot before it runs out all over the Country? I know my fiber connection
is tied in directly to Shreveport, Louisiana - - - and so is every other
facility in N. Louisiana that has fiber including all the DSL where its
dumped into the fiber at the Telco CO's. 

  I don't really have an awful lot of faith in our Government, but even a
simple mind like mine can see that we aren't ever going to be faced with
that responsibility. There are a bunch of renegades (like me) out here who
already are at odds with the Government and do you think they are going to
trust me (and others like me) to gather, maintain and retain that type data
when they have folks (just one or two hops upstream from all of us) who can
be held responsible and own the spigot we pull from? I just can't see
how/why anyone would wait till the end of the pipe where it goes out to
50,000 distribution points when they (once again) can catch it all at one
facility. It seems like a no brainer to me.


ME SMUG? HA! That makes me smile :-)


Mac Dearman



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 1:00 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

Just try and imagine how much storage you would require for 2 years
worth of traffic.  Guys are joking about it being good so they can get
the Terabyte server they always wanted.  How about when they have to
buy 50 of them?

Also consider the task of assigning IP addresses and maintaining that
list to always be up to date and correct.

If this requirement is made I do expect you will see an awful lot of
guys stop doing this since the paperwork and records keeping would be
an added chore and a possible huge expense.  If you elect to ignore it
if it is ever required expect to be asked to do jail time and pay huge
fines.

Make light of this all you want, but I believe that your smugness will
not last long if it becomes a requirement.

Lonnie

On 6/4/06, Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 You have enough clients that it would bankrupt you to build a server to
log
 your HTTP  SMTP traffic? I don't think it would be that difficult or
 expensive, but agree that it would be a major PITA! I am pretty sure we
will
 never be faced with this as the majority of us aren't reliable enough to
 even set this up nor responsible enough to keep up with it reliably for
two
 years.

 Mac Dearman

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki
 Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 12:34 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

 Common sense tells you that the big boys will lobby to force the last mile
 provider to log it all, so as to bankrupt the competition.




 North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
 personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
 sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
 Fast Internet, NO WIRES!


 -
 - Original Message -
 From: Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 10:21 AM
 Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?


  I wouldn't imagine that this responsibility would fall on us WISPs, but
to
  our upstream providers like BellSouth...etc. Why would they want to deal
  with the 20,000 piss ants of the world when all they have to do is back
up
  stream two hops and catch all the traffic? Common sense tells me this
will
  not fall on us!
 
 
  Mac
 
 
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
  Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki
  Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 1:19 AM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
 
  http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060601/ts_nm/security_internet_usa_dc
 
  Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop this kinda stuff?
 
  Or, is this issue like certain others, where WISPA founders take
contrary
  positions to the rest of the members and side with big brother and
 encourage
  the feds to dig into and regulate our business, in some apparent hope of
  ingratiating themselves with the regulators?
 
  AT LEAST could we have the leadership tell us what THEY think of this?
 
  North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
  personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Mark Koskenmaki

It may seem like a 'no brainer' to you, but since when did an idea being
brain-dead-stupid stop the government from trying or actually enforcing it?

There is one common thread that runs through all things government does when
it is seeking to help the common folk - a complete and total lack of
common sense.

Does Mr Gonzales or the FBI care a whit about, or even KNOW anything about
what it would take to do what they ask?   No, of course not.

It's just your typical beaurocrat, creating 50 problems while attempting to
make minor progress on a different one.



North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

-
- Original Message - 
From: Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 1:02 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?


 Lonnie,

   When I used the term piss ant it was referring to the working guys of
 this business. We all know how the ants work :-) doggedly for a small
 portion of the whole.

  Once again, I think its ridiculous to even think that the Feds would
allow
 us - or put on us - - the responsibility of keeping those records. I
really
 will go one step further than that and say that it is not possible! Look
at
 it this way:
Why would you sop the water off the ground with a sponge and then wring
 the sponge out in the bucket when you could catch it in the bucket at the
 spigot before it runs out all over the Country? I know my fiber connection
 is tied in directly to Shreveport, Louisiana - - - and so is every other
 facility in N. Louisiana that has fiber including all the DSL where its
 dumped into the fiber at the Telco CO's.

   I don't really have an awful lot of faith in our Government, but even a
 simple mind like mine can see that we aren't ever going to be faced with
 that responsibility. There are a bunch of renegades (like me) out here who
 already are at odds with the Government and do you think they are going to
 trust me (and others like me) to gather, maintain and retain that type
data
 when they have folks (just one or two hops upstream from all of us) who
can
 be held responsible and own the spigot we pull from? I just can't see
 how/why anyone would wait till the end of the pipe where it goes out to
 50,000 distribution points when they (once again) can catch it all at one
 facility. It seems like a no brainer to me.


 ME SMUG? HA! That makes me smile :-)


 Mac Dearman



 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler
 Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 1:00 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

 Just try and imagine how much storage you would require for 2 years
 worth of traffic.  Guys are joking about it being good so they can get
 the Terabyte server they always wanted.  How about when they have to
 buy 50 of them?

 Also consider the task of assigning IP addresses and maintaining that
 list to always be up to date and correct.

 If this requirement is made I do expect you will see an awful lot of
 guys stop doing this since the paperwork and records keeping would be
 an added chore and a possible huge expense.  If you elect to ignore it
 if it is ever required expect to be asked to do jail time and pay huge
 fines.

 Make light of this all you want, but I believe that your smugness will
 not last long if it becomes a requirement.

 Lonnie

 On 6/4/06, Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  You have enough clients that it would bankrupt you to build a server to
 log
  your HTTP  SMTP traffic? I don't think it would be that difficult or
  expensive, but agree that it would be a major PITA! I am pretty sure we
 will
  never be faced with this as the majority of us aren't reliable enough to
  even set this up nor responsible enough to keep up with it reliably for
 two
  years.
 
  Mac Dearman
 
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
  Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki
  Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 12:34 PM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
 
  Common sense tells you that the big boys will lobby to force the last
mile
  provider to log it all, so as to bankrupt the competition.
 
 
 
 
  North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
  personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
  sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
  Fast Internet, NO WIRES!
 
 --
--
  -
  - Original Message -
  From: Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
  Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 10:21 AM
  Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
 
 
   I wouldn't imagine that this responsibility would

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Larry Yunker

It may seem like a 'no brainer' to you, but since when did an idea being
brain-dead-stupid stop the government from trying or actually enforcing 
it?


There is one common thread that runs through all things government does 
when

it is seeking to help the common folk - a complete and total lack of
common sense.

Does Mr Gonzales or the FBI care a whit about, or even KNOW anything about
what it would take to do what they ask?   No, of course not.


I doubt quite seriously that any heads of executive branch departments 
realize that broadband/internet services are sometimes/often? provided by 
companies with a staff of less than ten and gross revenues less than $1MM 
annually.  Most Washington beaurocratics live in a box and believe the line 
of bull that the Bell's and the Cable-Ops feed them.  That is to say that 
the likes of Ma-Bell or Comcast created the internet and there aren't very 
many of the rouge ISPs around anymore.  They might as well just treat the 
industry like there are 10 players: Comcast, Time Warner, Verizon, ATT, 
Bell South, Qwest, Sprint, MSN, Earthlink, and AOL.  The rest of us are a 
bunch of renegades providing internet using tin-cans and string or 
pringles-cans and duct-tape.


Thats why government thinks nothing of mandating logging/snooping/data 
retention for ISPs.  They just don't recognize that the internet was formed 
by small mom-n-pop ISPs and that a fairly sizable chunk of internet access 
is still handled by the little guys.


- Larry




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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Sam Tetherow
The problem here Mac is that for the bells to be able to provide the 
information to the FBI they are going to have to be able to tie that IP 
address to an individual (your customer) so in the best case scenario 
you will have to keep track of what IP is mapped to which customer for 
any given time frame (I know this is an issue for some). In the worst 
case scenario you are the Bells will do it for you.


Sam Tetherow
Sandhills Wireless

Mac Dearman wrote:

Lonnie,

  When I used the term piss ant it was referring to the working guys of
this business. We all know how the ants work :-) doggedly for a small
portion of the whole.

 Once again, I think its ridiculous to even think that the Feds would allow
us - or put on us - - the responsibility of keeping those records. I really
will go one step further than that and say that it is not possible! Look at
it this way:
   Why would you sop the water off the ground with a sponge and then wring
the sponge out in the bucket when you could catch it in the bucket at the
spigot before it runs out all over the Country? I know my fiber connection
is tied in directly to Shreveport, Louisiana - - - and so is every other
facility in N. Louisiana that has fiber including all the DSL where its
dumped into the fiber at the Telco CO's. 


  I don't really have an awful lot of faith in our Government, but even a
simple mind like mine can see that we aren't ever going to be faced with
that responsibility. There are a bunch of renegades (like me) out here who
already are at odds with the Government and do you think they are going to
trust me (and others like me) to gather, maintain and retain that type data
when they have folks (just one or two hops upstream from all of us) who can
be held responsible and own the spigot we pull from? I just can't see
how/why anyone would wait till the end of the pipe where it goes out to
50,000 distribution points when they (once again) can catch it all at one
facility. It seems like a no brainer to me.


ME SMUG? HA! That makes me smile :-)


Mac Dearman



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 1:00 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

Just try and imagine how much storage you would require for 2 years
worth of traffic.  Guys are joking about it being good so they can get
the Terabyte server they always wanted.  How about when they have to
buy 50 of them?

Also consider the task of assigning IP addresses and maintaining that
list to always be up to date and correct.

If this requirement is made I do expect you will see an awful lot of
guys stop doing this since the paperwork and records keeping would be
an added chore and a possible huge expense.  If you elect to ignore it
if it is ever required expect to be asked to do jail time and pay huge
fines.

Make light of this all you want, but I believe that your smugness will
not last long if it becomes a requirement.

Lonnie

On 6/4/06, Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  

You have enough clients that it would bankrupt you to build a server to


log
  

your HTTP  SMTP traffic? I don't think it would be that difficult or
expensive, but agree that it would be a major PITA! I am pretty sure we


will
  

never be faced with this as the majority of us aren't reliable enough to
even set this up nor responsible enough to keep up with it reliably for


two
  

years.

Mac Dearman

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 12:34 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

Common sense tells you that the big boys will lobby to force the last mile
provider to log it all, so as to bankrupt the competition.




North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!




  

-
- Original Message -
From: Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 10:21 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?




I wouldn't imagine that this responsibility would fall on us WISPs, but
  

to
  

our upstream providers like BellSouth...etc. Why would they want to deal
with the 20,000 piss ants of the world when all they have to do is back
  

up
  

stream two hops and catch all the traffic? Common sense tells me this
  

will
  

not fall on us!


Mac




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 1:19 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060601/ts_nm/security_internet_usa_dc

Why aren't we fighting tooth

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Sam Tetherow
Pete is right, there is no way that historical information will pass 
evidence requirements which makes it pointless once the first case is tried.


I'll go further though and say that it won't pass it's first 
constitutional challenge.  It would be one thing to say we have to keep 
records of what sites a user hits.  I already do this to some degree by 
storing my netflow files.  This is similar to the phone company keeping 
track of who you call.  However, keeping a copy of the content of those 
net transactions would be analogous to the phone company recording all 
conversations and keeping them on file for 2 years so that the FBI can 
listen to them at a later date.  IANAL but I don't think that it is 
possible for a recorded conversation to be allowed in court unless 
atleast one of the participants knows they are being recorded at the 
time of the recording UNLESS there is an active court order at the time 
of the conversation allowing a third party to do so.


If you take it even one step further storing the contents for 2 years of 
all traffic that crosses over my network would violate intellectual and 
copyright laws galore.  If someone downloads a pirated dvd I now have a 
copy of it stored for two years.  If some downloads a legal copy of a 
pay per view sports cast, I now have an archived copy of it for 2 
years.  If I host a company's email and there are trade secrets 
exchanged I now have a copy of that information stored for two years.


   Sam Tetherow
   Sandhills Wireless

Pete Davis wrote:
If/when the feds require it, I guess the way to do it would be to run 
Ethereal in fully promiscuous mode on a mirrored port on a switch and 
streaming it to server over the FBI's T1 to their server. When the 
Federal government installs their T1 to my NOC, I would be willing to 
upload it to them over their network resources to their server for 
them to to keep on file for 2 years to never look at, otherwise, I 
don't have any way to insure that the data hasn't been tampered with 
if it stays in my file room. The government requiring me to keep two 
years records of all network traffic seems unreasonable. If I were a 
defense attorney defending a client whose evidence against him was 
stored by some local ISP dinks on their servers for 24 months, I would 
certainly question the chain of the evidence, and likely get it thrown 
out.


Here is an example of how this could go wrong: If I am an ISP operator 
(I am actually) and I have a vendetta against a client (I don't, or at 
least not one I want to discuss here) and I am in charge of keeping 
network logs of all of that client's traffic, I could easily forge the 
records to make it look like he had committed a horrific crime, like 
reproducing the transcript of the commentary of a game without the 
express written consent of Major League Baseball, and make it look 
like it came from his IP address. I don't know how that record, 24 
months old, and sitting in my tape locker could ever be held as 
compelling evidence against him, unless there was already an 
investigation, where these records still probably couldn't make or 
break a case.


I suppose that the thinking is, that if the subscriber is guilty of 
child porn, and they can prove what site he downloaded from and sent 
it to, they could go after that web host for hosting the smut. Either 
way, putting it off to the local ISP to keep records seems far fetched.


Pete Davis
NoDial.net

Mac Dearman wrote:

You have enough clients that it would bankrupt you to build a server to log
your HTTP  SMTP traffic? I don't think it would be that difficult or
expensive, but agree that it would be a major PITA! I am pretty sure we will
never be faced with this as the majority of us aren't reliable enough to
even set this up nor responsible enough to keep up with it reliably for two
years.

Mac Dearman

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 12:34 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

Common sense tells you that the big boys will lobby to force the last mile
provider to log it all, so as to bankrupt the competition.




North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

-
- Original Message - 
From: Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 10:21 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?


  

I wouldn't imagine that this responsibility would fall on us WISPs, but to
our upstream providers like BellSouth...etc. Why would they want to deal
with the 20,000 piss ants of the world when all they have to do is back up
stream two hops and catch all the traffic? Common sense tells me this will
not fall on us

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Butch Evans

On Sat, 3 Jun 2006, Mark Koskenmaki wrote:


Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop this kinda stuff?


Why aren't YOU doing something about it?

Or, is this issue like certain others, where WISPA founders take 
contrary positions to the rest of the members and side with big


Hmmm, it seems to me that there aren't many people who are members 
complaining about this being the case.  I know YOU have argued some 
points to death, but that's not the rest of the members.  Are you 
even a member?


brother and encourage the feds to dig into and regulate our 
business, in some apparent hope of ingratiating themselves with the 
regulators?


This is just dumb enough to not even require any response.

AT LEAST could we have the leadership tell us what THEY think of 
this?


Why not ask the membership what they want?  I agree with you that 
this issue is a big one.  It is not an impossible thing to 
accomplish, but it is certainly a big issue.  I'd suggest that you 
(I'm no longer an ISP, so why should I worry about it), as a member 
(you ARE a member, right?), step up to the plate and head up a 
workgroup to come up with an official response and plan of action to 
fight this issue.


--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Butch Evans

On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, Mark Koskenmaki wrote:

Common sense tells you that the big boys will lobby to force the 
last mile provider to log it all, so as to bankrupt the 
competition.


Common sense tells ME that if it were going to affect ME, to the 
point of bankrupcy, the I would be doing something about it.


--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Butch Evans

On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, Mark Koskenmaki wrote:


Because Im personna non grata with WISPA and Part-15.


Perhaps it's your winning personality?  I don't know...maybe it's 
something else.


I don't share the same political goals, and as such, I'm not in any 
position to do squat.


You don't have a Senator?  A Congressman?  Or is it that you just 
want someone else to do all the work?


After being threatened by both WISPA people and Part-15 people, 
being told to shut up and go away, I don't figure I have much 
influence around either place.  But, since the stories DID appear 
in several public news outlets, I figured at least someone would 
notice and care enough to comment.


This discussion has happened on this list already.  Thanks for 
bringing it up again.



And I figure this ends my ability to be on this list, as well.


Why do you figure that?  If you ran the list, would you boot someone 
who posted what you posted?


--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Butch Evans

On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, Lonnie Nunweiler wrote:

I'm not big but I do NOT consider my operation as being run by piss 
ants either.


Do you consider the majority of WISP's to be run by piss ants and 
not worthy of any recognition and responsibility?  I sincerely hope 
not because I have no desire to be associated with such a group.


I think you are mis-reading Mac's post.  Maybe not, but I did not 
read that into it.  I think he is simply saying that this issue is 
not intended for the last mile providers as much as it is for the 
major backbone providers.  I tend to disagree with that assessment, 
but that's another post.


--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
http://www.butchevans.com/
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(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread George Rogato
The problem with all of this is that most ISP's wireless or land line 
historically do not get involved in a trade association and work 
together for the common good.


Land line ISP's didn't join together and wisps are not joining together 
either.


Here WISPA has been created and hardly anyone is taking advantage of 
joining WISPA and trying to get anything done.


This is the sad thing that is discouraging, that an organization has 
been created and nobody is taking advantage of it.
It's also discouraging to hear that some people say or imply that WISPA 
is a good old boys club run by insiders, when in actuality WISPA is an 
organization wide open that just about anyone in the wisp business can 
join run for office get elected and take charge.


Very disappointing, and this is what makes me scream when I hear posts 
like Roberts the other day accusing board members of getting paid with 
perks or Marks suggestion this morning that the board is on the inside 
with this stuff.


You guys, the wisps that are out in the fields doing the wisp business 
should be trying harder to get the entire wisp community to join this 
organization and to get something accomplished.


My poll for a working group for muni wireless had 2 respondents.
Only 2 wisps are interested or think they need help with muni wireless?
Hard to believe.



--
George Rogato

Welcome to WISPA

www.wispa.org

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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread George Rogato

Thank you very much.
As for work groups, YES Butch, even YOU a NON wisp can join in a work 
group and contribute.


I will say once again,

If ANYONE in our industry can come up with a work group, wisp centric 
that will help our industry and our wisps, we would WELCOME you to do so 
and create an enviorment for you guys to flourish.


I would probably faint if someone actually did this.

George

Butch Evans wrote:

On Sat, 3 Jun 2006, Mark Koskenmaki wrote:


Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop this kinda stuff?



Why aren't YOU doing something about it?

Or, is this issue like certain others, where WISPA founders take 
contrary positions to the rest of the members and side with big



Hmmm, it seems to me that there aren't many people who are members 
complaining about this being the case.  I know YOU have argued some 
points to death, but that's not the rest of the members.  Are you even 
a member?


brother and encourage the feds to dig into and regulate our business, 
in some apparent hope of ingratiating themselves with the regulators?



This is just dumb enough to not even require any response.


AT LEAST could we have the leadership tell us what THEY think of this?



Why not ask the membership what they want?  I agree with you that this 
issue is a big one.  It is not an impossible thing to accomplish, but it 
is certainly a big issue.  I'd suggest that you (I'm no longer an ISP, 
so why should I worry about it), as a member (you ARE a member, right?), 
step up to the plate and head up a workgroup to come up with an official 
response and plan of action to fight this issue.




--
George Rogato

Welcome to WISPA

www.wispa.org

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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Blair Davis

Did anyone READ the link?

They are NOT asking us to archive content, but IP addresses of sites 
browsed to, e-mail sent to and so on.  Not content.


If Congress is going to be asked to pass legislation ordering Internet 
providers to retain data they won't be asked for content of that data 
but rather addresses e-mails were sent and sites they visited, 
Roehrkasse said.


Not that I think it is right

How long do YOU keep logs and such? 


--

Blair Davis
West Michigan Wireless ISP


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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Peter R.
If it would be a huge burden to small businesses, then the SBA can file 
under the Small Business Burden Act (forget what it is actually called). 
The federal gov't cannot create regulations that would be a hardship for 
SMB owners.


BTW, imagine having 2M BB users and how much space that would take

Also, doesn't the NSA have all this info from tapping the ATT network?

- Peter

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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Peter R.
Actually, the ACLU declined to meet with the AG  FBI saying basically 
You have got to be kidding.



Mark Koskenmaki wrote:


Did anyone notice that the ACLU hasn't peeped a negative word against
requiring the logging of all internet use by individuals?   We're on our
own, as individuals, as citizens, as entrepreneurs, it seems.   


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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Peter R.

All of this is pedantic.
It seems consensus is this is a crazy idea.
Everyone agrees.

Problems:
Hardship.
Too much info.
No chain of evidence.
Unsecure.
No space or time.
Unreasonable.

Who do we send the letter to?
I'll help a board member or Mark K. compose one.

Regards,

Peter


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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? - small ISPs built

2006-06-04 Thread Peter R.

Not only true in DC, but to the general public as well, Larry.

Larry Yunker wrote:

I doubt quite seriously that any heads of executive branch departments 
realize that broadband/internet services are sometimes/often? provided 
by companies with a staff of less than ten and gross revenues less 
than $1MM annually.  Most Washington beaurocratics live in a box and 
believe the line of bull that the Bell's and the Cable-Ops feed them.  
That is to say that the likes of Ma-Bell or Comcast created the 
internet and there aren't very many of the rouge ISPs around anymore.  
They might as well just treat the industry like there are 10 players: 
Comcast, Time Warner, Verizon, ATT, Bell South, Qwest, Sprint, MSN, 
Earthlink, and AOL.  The rest of us are a bunch of renegades providing 
internet using tin-cans and string or pringles-cans and duct-tape.


Thats why government thinks nothing of mandating logging/snooping/data 
retention for ISPs.  They just don't recognize that the internet was 
formed by small mom-n-pop ISPs and that a fairly sizable chunk of 
internet access is still handled by the little guys.


- Larry


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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? - ACTION

2006-06-04 Thread Peter R.

I don't think anyone believes you will go Quietly   :)
However, when you make that noise, are you aiming it at your Congress 
Critter?

Or just into the ether that is a listserv?

In the time it took to write and read the 30 or so posts on the subject, 
you could have written a press release or letter that shared your views 
and the list (or Board) could have had a start on a template for 
everyone to use to send to their Congress Critter?  (I have posted such 
a letter to the list).


One of the things that makes an association work is when someone not 
only makes a suggestion but acts on it.


- Peter
RAD-INFO, Inc.
Your NSP Strategist
(813) 963-5884

Mark Koskenmaki wrote:


Let's just say I won't go quietly.   People gave lives to secure liberties
for me.   We should not dismiss them so easily.
 


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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Mark Koskenmaki
Peter, I'd tend to agree with you... but think about this:

How many lawsuits have been filed against people for music swapping, purely
on the basis of ISP logs?

If I HAD any logs of customer activity ( I do not ) I would disclaim them
immediately - by responding that I have no conflidence in the accuracy,
content, time or date of any entry in the logs, and further, I cannot verify
that traffic to/from a specific IP has not been intercepted, either.

Now, should the authorities come to me with a specific request to help track
down someone violating the law, I will help any way I can.   But the
pre-emptive demands that we collect the data and hold it goes beyond beyond.

You have made excellent points concerning the validity of anything we
collect...  But again, just because it's not possible, not technically
feasible, unconstitutional, illegal, or any other point, doesn't mean a
thing.   Unless someone has the money to fight all the way to the SCOTUS
(lower courts seem to be willing to uphold anything, no matter how grossly
wrong ),  it's either comply or go out of business.

And no, the FBI and Congress, and the FCC won't give us 10 second's
consideration if the last one is the result.   They simply do not care.




North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

-
- Original Message - 
From: Peter R. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?


 All of this is pedantic.
 It seems consensus is this is a crazy idea.
 Everyone agrees.

 Problems:
 Hardship.
 Too much info.
 No chain of evidence.
 Unsecure.
 No space or time.
 Unreasonable.

 Who do we send the letter to?
 I'll help a board member or Mark K. compose one.

 Regards,

 Peter


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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Mark Koskenmaki
---
- Original Message - 
From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 2:39 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?


 On Sat, 3 Jun 2006, Mark Koskenmaki wrote:

 Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop this kinda stuff?

 Why aren't YOU doing something about it?

What DO you want me to do?

I was sold on the notion that we should all respond, but that we should
respond carefully, wisely, and in agreement.   That, I was sold on when I
signed up and handed over my money, and that was what I thought I was
supporting.


 Or, is this issue like certain others, where WISPA founders take
 contrary positions to the rest of the members and side with big

 Hmmm, it seems to me that there aren't many people who are members
 complaining about this being the case.  I know YOU have argued some
 points to death, but that's not the rest of the members.  Are you
 even a member?

 brother and encourage the feds to dig into and regulate our
 business, in some apparent hope of ingratiating themselves with the
 regulators?

 This is just dumb enough to not even require any response.

I'll send you an offlist email, then.


 AT LEAST could we have the leadership tell us what THEY think of
 this?

 Why not ask the membership what they want?  I agree with you that
 this issue is a big one.  It is not an impossible thing to
 accomplish, but it is certainly a big issue.  I'd suggest that you
 (I'm no longer an ISP, so why should I worry about it), as a member
 (you ARE a member, right?), step up to the plate and head up a
 workgroup to come up with an official response and plan of action to
 fight this issue.

Well, I'd assume you're either a provider or a customer of one these days...


North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!
--


 -- 
 Butch Evans
 Network Engineering and Security Consulting
 http://www.butchevans.com/
 Mikrotik Certified Consultant
 (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand

2006-06-04 Thread George Rogato
I could be wrong but as I have followed this thread there are 2 issues 
at hand.


1) Does the government have a right to know the actions of Americans on 
the internet?


2) Is this a responsibility of the ISP to bear the burden of gathering 
this information or should the burden be carried by the feds themselves 
with little or no cost to the ISP?


This thread started out as we should not be allowing the government to 
know our every move.
This is a political discussion that can not and should not be decided by 
an ISP, but rather the entire country. We don't have any jurisdiction on 
issues such as this.


We do however have a right to contest who is responsible for the burden 
of gathering this information.


I wanted to bring this out so that we all understand what this thread is 
about, what it started out as and what responsibility WISPA or any other 
ISP org has concerning this issue.


One is a social issue the other an industry wide issue.


--
George Rogato

Welcome to WISPA

www.wispa.org

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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Sam Tetherow
Then it is a boondoggle.  All of the web traffic will be to some 
off-shore proxy.  The same with email.


   Sam Tetherow
   Sandhills Wireless

Blair Davis wrote:

Did anyone READ the link?

They are NOT asking us to archive content, but IP addresses of sites 
browsed to, e-mail sent to and so on.  Not content.


If Congress is going to be asked to pass legislation ordering 
Internet providers to retain data they won't be asked for content of 
that data but rather addresses e-mails were sent and sites they 
visited, Roehrkasse said.


Not that I think it is right

How long do YOU keep logs and such?
--

Blair Davis
West Michigan Wireless ISP





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  Sandhills Wireless

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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand

2006-06-04 Thread Sam Tetherow
While I agree with your breakdown and the general statement that #1 
should be decided on by the country as a whole.  I think it is up to us 
as an industry that understands the implications of what is being asked 
for to make a statement about #1 even if it is just a clarification of 
the implications of this law.


   Sam Tetherow
   Sandhills Wireless

George Rogato wrote:
I could be wrong but as I have followed this thread there are 2 issues 
at hand.


1) Does the government have a right to know the actions of Americans 
on the internet?


2) Is this a responsibility of the ISP to bear the burden of gathering 
this information or should the burden be carried by the feds 
themselves with little or no cost to the ISP?


This thread started out as we should not be allowing the government to 
know our every move.
This is a political discussion that can not and should not be decided 
by an ISP, but rather the entire country. We don't have any 
jurisdiction on issues such as this.


We do however have a right to contest who is responsible for the 
burden of gathering this information.


I wanted to bring this out so that we all understand what this thread 
is about, what it started out as and what responsibility WISPA or any 
other ISP org has concerning this issue.


One is a social issue the other an industry wide issue.





--
  Sam Tetherow
  Sandhills Wireless

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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread David Sovereen



Many of you seem to be of the belief that the 
proposed bill requires you to keep records of the content of subscribers. 
Simply put, that isNOT THE CASE. While I do not know the specific 
details of the various proposals, I do know that none of them are expecting ISPs 
to keep copies of content accessed.

The proposed bills arerequiring that ISPs 
keep track of what subscriber used what IP address(es). One version of the 
bill wants this data retained for one year; another version for two years. 
For ISPs using RADIUS for accounting or making static IP assignments, this is 
pretty easy to do. I don't know what 
requirements, if any, are being proposed for subscribers placed behind a NAT 
firewall shared by many subscribers.

I understand that WISPA is an organization still in 
its infancy, and they don't currently have the resources to "lobby" 
congress. But there IS an organization speaking to congress on your bahalf 
on this issue: The United States Internet Industry Association.

As a former member of the board of directors, I can 
assure you that this is a small, but vocal organization, and they are 
representing YOUR interests. Data retention requirements have been on 
USIIA's radar for quite some time. On Feburary 17, 2005 (last year) the 
board of directors adopted this policy as USIIA's official position on data 
retention: http://www.usiia.org/legis/dataret.html

If you'd like tosupport an organization that 
does speak to congress and is representing your interests, you might consider 
giving USIIA your financial. For the record, their board receives no 
compensation. The only paid employee is David McClure, their full-time 
President and CEO (and "lobbyist", but he doesn't go by that 
title).

Dave


  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Pete Davis 
  
  To: WISPA General List ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 2:34 PM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent 
  about this?
  If/when the feds require it, I guess the way to do it would be 
  to run Ethereal in fully promiscuous mode on a mirrored port on a switch and 
  streaming it to server over the FBI's T1 to their server. When the Federal 
  government installs their T1 to my NOC, I would be willing to upload it to 
  them over their network resources to their server for them to to keep on file 
  for 2 years to never look at, otherwise, I don't have any way to insure that 
  the data hasn't been tampered with if it stays in my file room. The government 
  requiring me to keep two years records of all network traffic seems 
  unreasonable. If I were a defense attorney defending a client whose evidence 
  against him was stored by some local ISP dinks on their servers for 24 months, 
  I would certainly question the chain of the evidence, and likely get it thrown 
  out.Here is an example of how this could go wrong: If I am an ISP 
  operator (I am actually) and I have a vendetta against a client (I don't, or 
  at least not one I want to discuss here) and I am in charge of keeping network 
  logs of all of that client's traffic, I could easily forge the records to make 
  it look like he had committed a horrific crime, like reproducing the 
  transcript of the commentary of a game without the express written consent of 
  Major League Baseball, and make it look like it came from his IP address. I 
  don't know how that record, 24 months old, and sitting in my tape locker could 
  ever be held as compelling evidence against him, unless there was already an 
  investigation, where these records still probably couldn't make or break a 
  case.I suppose that the thinking is, that if the subscriber is guilty 
  of child porn, and they can prove what site he downloaded from and sent it to, 
  they could go after that web host for hosting the smut. Either way, putting it 
  off to the local ISP to keep records seems far fetched. Pete 
  DavisNoDial.netMac Dearman wrote: 
  You have enough clients that it would bankrupt you to build a server to log
your HTTP  SMTP traffic? I don't think it would be that difficult or
expensive, but agree that it would be a major PITA! I am pretty sure we will
never be faced with this as the majority of us aren't reliable enough to
even set this up nor responsible enough to keep up with it reliably for two
years.

Mac Dearman

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 12:34 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

Common sense tells you that the big boys will lobby to force the last mile
provider to log it all, so as to bankrupt the competition.




North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

-
- Original Message - 
From: "Mac 

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

2006-06-04 Thread Butch Evans

On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, Mark Koskenmaki wrote:


Why aren't YOU doing something about it?


What DO you want me to do?


What do _I_ want you to do?  Do what you seem to expect others to do 
on your behalf, which you seem to think they are not/will not do!


I was sold on the notion that we should all respond, but that we 
should respond carefully, wisely, and in agreement.  That, I was 
sold on when I signed up and handed over my money, and that was 
what I thought I was supporting.


Mark, It seems that you got what you paid for.  WISPA attempts to be 
your voice.  WISPA will not always say what you personally want it 
to say.  That is just a simple fact.  This is a GROUP, and the 
majority will rule.  It is a sad fact, that many times, the 
majority is, in reality, a MINORITY that is willing to be vocal.


Well, I'd assume you're either a provider or a customer of one 
these days...


I am not longer an ISP.  I am a customer of 2 small ISPs.  Not that 
it really impacts on this discussion.


--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand

2006-06-04 Thread Butch Evans

On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, George Rogato wrote:

1) Does the government have a right to know the actions of 
Americans on the internet?


This is not really at issue.  At least it is not really of any 
concern for us here.


2) Is this a responsibility of the ISP to bear the burden of 
gathering this information or should the burden be carried by the 
feds themselves with little or no cost to the ISP?


THIS is the real issue that ISPs face.  The problem that we all have 
with this is multifaceted.  First, (and perhaps most importantly) is 
the cost that many ISPs will face to comply with the requirements. 
In many cases, this cost will be both direct (for hardware) and 
indirect (network reconfiguration).  Also, many ISPs are set up in 
such a way that compliance will be nearly impossible.  Let me 
provide just a couple examples.


First, many ISPs use private IP space internally for their 
customers.  For these ISPs, any monitoring done by an outside entity 
(i.e. ATT) will be completely useless.


Another example, would be the many ISPs that have several diverse 
networks.  I have several customers that have 3 or 4 distinct 
networks (one has 8).  These ISPs would be required to store this 
data in either one location, or purchase the equipment for each 
network.


It is my belief that WISPA should create a stance against any 
requirement for WISPs to store customer traffic patterns for any 
period.  The very idea is hideously un-American in the first place. 
Be that as it may, it is technically difficult, and financially 
unfair for many smaller ISPs to have to store this information at 
all.


This thread started out as we should not be allowing the government 
to know our every move. This is a political discussion that can not 
and should not be decided by an ISP, but rather the entire country. 
We don't have any jurisdiction on issues such as this.


George, this is one area where we disagree.  This is NOT a 
political discussion.  This is an issue that directly impacts 
every ISP (wireless or wired).  It is, perhaps, true that the 
political implications are what Mark was driving at, but the issue 
at hand is NOT political in nature.  It IS financial and technical.


We do however have a right to contest who is responsible for the 
burden of gathering this information.


OK.  If that is the case, wouldn't you agree that this is something 
that SHOULD be addressed by WISPA?  I don't agree with much that 
Mark had to say (really, it was the implications he made that I 
disagreed with), but his point that there should be SOME action on 
the part of WISPA is one that I do agree with.


--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand

2006-06-04 Thread George Rogato

Butch,
Most likely wispa will act on this. But, ultimately, it comes down to 
does the membership of wispa want to do this.


I don't mean to be rude, but shouldn't the paying members that make up 
the wispa membership decide what wispa acts on or not?


It's not that I disagree with any of this, and I'm sure the other paying 
members of wispa and the rest of the board are interested in making a 
statement and will most likely act.


But Mark did not bring this up to the membership. Just the open list.
Mark is a member and he should have brought this up to the membership 
and just tossed eggs at wispa from outside of wispa.


And I think his original post was at midnight last night chastising the 
so called insiders of wispa, accusing the insiders of being in with 
the feds for their personal gain even though he is a paying member of 
wispa and could have easily brought this up at some point in a more 
dignified manner without accusing the insiders of having some sort of 
conspiracy and dereliction of duty.


here is his original post:

Or, is this issue like certain others, where WISPA founders take 
contrary positions to the rest of the members and side with big brother 
and encourage the feds to dig into and regulate our business, in some 
apparent hope of ingratiating themselves with the regulators?


So what was his real message?

I'd like him to explain to the membership what certain others are.

I would also like to point out that everyone wants wispa to do 
something, but I only saw 1 person jump up and instantly try to give a 
solution. That was Peter R. and he isn't even a paying member of wispa, yet.


He does though contribute to the wispa promo committee and is very much 
interested in working with wisps and wispa in as an industry 
representative. Which I congratulate him on being right there for us 
when wisps who are in the industry won't even contribute anything.


Actually there was a 2nd and that was Pete Davis who made a darn good 
suggestion that would deflect costs away from the ISP and back towards 
the feds.


Now if we could just get more people to join in and help with some of 
the stuff wispa could be doing, we might be able to get more done and 
stay on top of things.


Right now there are about 500 list dwellers here and only a small 
percentage are paid members.


The paid members are MUCH appreciated, because even if they don't have 
the time to contribute, they at least contributed money to help pay the 
bills and keep wispa alive.


The rest of the list dwellers, who I will assume are in the industry or 
related to the industry also need to consider that the math is easy.

here it is

The MORE people who join in and contribute either with a little money or 
even actions and a little time will mean the MORE wispa can get done.


The LESS people who contribute, the LESS that gets done.

Remember, everyone has day jobs and businesses that takes up most of 
their time, so it's not like we have full time anybodies.


Sincerely

George




Butch Evans wrote:

On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, George Rogato wrote:

1) Does the government have a right to know the actions of Americans 
on the internet?



This is not really at issue.  At least it is not really of any concern 
for us here.


2) Is this a responsibility of the ISP to bear the burden of gathering 
this information or should the burden be carried by the feds 
themselves with little or no cost to the ISP?



THIS is the real issue that ISPs face.  The problem that we all have 
with this is multifaceted.  First, (and perhaps most importantly) is the 
cost that many ISPs will face to comply with the requirements. In many 
cases, this cost will be both direct (for hardware) and indirect 
(network reconfiguration).  Also, many ISPs are set up in such a way 
that compliance will be nearly impossible.  Let me provide just a couple 
examples.


First, many ISPs use private IP space internally for their customers.  
For these ISPs, any monitoring done by an outside entity (i.e. ATT) 
will be completely useless.


Another example, would be the many ISPs that have several diverse 
networks.  I have several customers that have 3 or 4 distinct networks 
(one has 8).  These ISPs would be required to store this data in either 
one location, or purchase the equipment for each network.


It is my belief that WISPA should create a stance against any 
requirement for WISPs to store customer traffic patterns for any 
period.  The very idea is hideously un-American in the first place. Be 
that as it may, it is technically difficult, and financially unfair for 
many smaller ISPs to have to store this information at all.


This thread started out as we should not be allowing the government to 
know our every move. This is a political discussion that can not and 
should not be decided by an ISP, but rather the entire country. We 
don't have any jurisdiction on issues such as this.



George, this is one area where we disagree.  This is NOT a political