Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2010-01-06 Thread Tom DeReggi
Charles,

Excellent comment.

I'd argue though that its not a matter of customer count, but more about a 
revenue threshold to justify staying in business.
I believe the first threshold is about $15k monthly. Unlessthat threashold 
is met, its not cost effective to stay in business, but if it is met, 
usually the owner can get an ROI over time if they let it sit, and stay a 
one man show. Who knows if they'll ever get a full return on their 
investment, but money is sunk, and justified to let it continue because 
ongoing revenue pays as much as a day job, so let it ride on.

But your point was well heard, how do you get to the next level?.

The next level might be around the $40k monthly range. Now one can add a 
couple employees, and have decent capacity and coverage, core costs covered, 
be competitive and be cash flow possitive doing it. Life is easier, profit 
is better, sustainabilty likely achieved. Now theirs a chance the owner can 
get a decent ROI over time, and clearly pays better than the day job.

But your point was well heard, and again ask, how do you get to the next 
level?.

The think is, if the owner stays as is focuses on new customers (rev) 
and not buildout (new costs), its easilly sailing. In past years, maybe 10 
new business subs were needed to break even on a tower cost. A lot of work 
little reward. But now, 1 new business subs means it can cover a new car 
payment of luxury. But 1 more new business sub just bought you a beautiful 
new Flat screen TV. But 1 new business sub now makes a sizable monthly 
payment towards paying off finance debt.  The owner sees the light, why 
change the new found pattern?

Why grow? Or more importantly, Why spend?

Even with the Free Grant money, is it worth it? The requirement is that the 
recipient CAN NOT use the revenue/profit to pay themselves. All funds have 
to be spent on supporting the capitol infrastructure for the next 3 years. 
Why would a WISP want to divert all their free time the next 3 years working 
for free AGAIN, instead of working on the easy sales on their pre-existing 
network that instantly translates to PROFIT and ROI today?

Its costly to grow, whether its with your own money, or subsidized money. 
And its surely tough to decide to start all over again, going back into 
investment mode instead of payback mode.

One of my favorite stories is of an experience I had back in 1997, waiting 
to pickup an order from a Computer Distributer.
I ran into an old rival buddy of mine, we both just started our own 
businesses a year or two before.
I was like How ya doing, we got like 4 CNEs now,
He was like, yeah, well we got 5 techs now
He was like Well we broke 1 mil this year.
I was like Well, we broke 2 mil last year.
Then an old guy waiting at the counter stepped over, joined in and said,
Well, I've been in business for 15 years now, I have 1 employee he's been 
with me for 10, all I ever needed.  I have a beautiful home, a great wife, 
time for my kids, you can see my nice car out front, my customers love me, I 
treat them fairly and my quality is top notch, I got plenty of work, 
probably half-mil yearly, and get to choose which work I accept, but most of 
all I have peice of mind, and I sleep really well at night.  So who's the 
winner?

We thanked our new friend for his insight. My friend and I looked at our 
watches, and he just realizes he's late for his meeting with his divorse 
attorney, and I just realize I'm about to miss another kids soccer game, and 
off we went in our clunkers.  I learned something that day, and made a 
change.  Now 13 years later, I look into the mirror, and I see a resemblance 
of that guy, and I'm fine with that.

I'm not saying, dont spend, dont invest, dont evolve, I'm just saying, 
bigger isn't always better.

When it comes to WiMax, I ask the same question as Non-WiMax. How is 
this choice going to make me more money today, with less effort?
 If the Plan shows it can, all is good.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Charles Wu c...@cticonnect.com
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


 Once you get to say 1000+ customers, things like having the staff for
service calls and time to repair for customers are often more important
than the brand of radio or the original cost of the radio. We do spend
more on payroll than radios, despite deploying lots of expensive gear.
Keeping CPE prices down is appreciated and important, but less tangible
ongoing management, troubleshooting, and repair costs must also be
considered. The reduction in support costs isn't an expection, it's a
reality and requirement in many situations.

 When you're working as a startup, labor costs are essentially zero (and if 
 you're asian like myself, you can call on your kids/relatives/grandparents 
 to work nights and weekends -- the classic Chinese restaurant business

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2010-01-06 Thread Paolo Di Francesco
I don't think so :)


 And the only one on this list out of the States?  Is that right?


-- 


Ing. Paolo Di Francesco

Teleinform S.p.A.
Sede Legale: Via Francesco Paolo Di Blasi 1, 90144 Palermo
Unita' Operativa: Via Regione Siciliana 49, 90046 Monreale (Palermo)
Tel: +39-091-6408576, +39-091-6404501
Fax: +39-091-6406200

http://www.wikitel.it
http://www.teleinform.com






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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2010-01-05 Thread jp
On Mon, Jan 04, 2010 at 05:28:49PM -0600, Wallace Walcher wrote:
 Having built my WISP from scratch with my own resources and currently being
 debt free in my operations, I often wonder who the people are who so quickly
 classify Mikrotik and Ubiquity gear as trash.  I am making a very good
 living deploying such trash.

I'm not ashamed of calling their bluff when they say something is 
carrier class, and it's not even released yet and then has firmware 
their either sets the timing wrong to the point of destroying the link 
or doesn't do vlans, and the firmware isn't pulled offline because it's 
the best stuff available.

I've got a couple UBNT M links up and like them, and believe it has a 
future. I just can't put my whole business on the line while they refine 
a product. It is wise and irrestible to try the stuff though.

I've got a downtown network of UBNT 802.11 gear, and the nanos and 
bullets just can't handle the interference as I'd like. It was intended 
to be an upgrade from the breezecom FH gear which was slow but reliable. 
The UBNT is faster, but less reliable in the presence of local 
interference. Now, if someone has an interference problem, we 
immediately swap them over to Alvarion 5.4 gear. It is more expensive, 
but we know we'll never have a service call after it's put in unless it 
gets hit by lightning or the customer wants to upgrade. We would have 
been wise to upgrade straight from the old stuff to 5.4. I'd still 
recommend the UBNT CPE for truly rural use.

Then MT is always making something wonky. A couple years ago, you could 
crash the MT with a SNMP query. Now, if you put an N card in and upgrade 
the firmware in your 433ah to 4.4, you might lose the ethernet ports. I 
stay 1-4 months behind on their firmware because it's a mystery what you 
might get. Changelogs show less than half of what they change. I do like 
them for basic routing and also use their gear for a few links. I think 
it's a step up from UBNT for ptp 802.11 based links. I also like MT 
because it's pretty low power use, which has practical value for solar 
sites or sites needing long battery backup. We don't have the time to 
tinker to use it for everything. We tried 900 with SR9 then XR9 and the 
reliability wasn't there compared to what we were accustomed to with 
Trango and Alvarion. 

Once you get to say 1000+ customers, things like having the staff for 
service calls and time to repair for customers are often more important 
than the brand of radio or the original cost of the radio. We do spend 
more on payroll than radios, despite deploying lots of expensive gear. 
Keeping CPE prices down is appreciated and important, but less tangible 
ongoing management, troubleshooting, and repair costs must also be 
considered. The reduction in support costs isn't an expection, it's a 
reality and requirement in many situations.

A minor glitch that affects a few customers outside of town is not a big 
deal, but if the glitch requires half a day on the road or requires 
aircraft, boats, snowcats, or sleds, it could cost hundreds of dollars 
and mess up a lot of customers.

I'd fear for my welfare if everything was built on UBNT and MT though.

We use Alvarion 900, 2.4 (not going forward), 5.4, 5.8, Trango (lots of 
900 installed, but not going forward), MT, UBNT, and now Solectek and 
Radwin.

My WISP is pretty low debt 100% privately owned and financed, and we 
often choose higher end equipment. You do get what you pay for, but of 
course there are diminshing returns the higher end you go.


 My perception is they are either people who are not spending their own money
 - they are working for the investor, or possibly borrowing or leasing the
 equipment, or they are a vendor promoting their own high margin goods.
 Those that are WISPs seem to have the perception that it is better to
 install higher cost equipment, no matter what the cost, if it will provide
 them an expected reduction in support costs.
 
 What I have found in my area is that people who deploy such equipment have a
 very hard go of it, mainly because the replacement costs during the storm
 season eat their lunch.  My operational plan is different than some - I
 focus on residential customers on the outskirts of town that do not have
 access to Cable and DSL.  Those focusing on business accounts in cities
 would understandably have a different perspective.  But I feel very
 fortunate to have a sub $200 total CPE cost (sometimes sub $100) with the
 Mikrotik-type solution.
 
 
 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 
  
 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
 
 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
 
 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

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/*
Jason Philbrook   |   Midcoast Internet Solutions - Wireless and DSL

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2010-01-05 Thread Charles Wu
Once you get to say 1000+ customers, things like having the staff for 
service calls and time to repair for customers are often more important 
than the brand of radio or the original cost of the radio. We do spend 
more on payroll than radios, despite deploying lots of expensive gear. 
Keeping CPE prices down is appreciated and important, but less tangible 
ongoing management, troubleshooting, and repair costs must also be 
considered. The reduction in support costs isn't an expection, it's a 
reality and requirement in many situations.

When you're working as a startup, labor costs are essentially zero (and if 
you're asian like myself, you can call on your kids/relatives/grandparents to 
work nights and weekends -- the classic Chinese restaurant business model =)

However, when working with employees (and I don't care how smart / hard-working 
/ strong willed you are, there's still only 24 hours in a day) -- labor costs 
become a bigger factor as the organization scales

So this brings up a more interesting debate -- e.g., one-man band / mom-and-pop 
vs. organizational strategy

As an organization, trying to run a WISP with 700 residential customers is a 
complete waste of time, however, as a one-man-band -- an 700 customer WISP can 
be highly profitable

The problem here is that there's a nasty chasm between what the one-man band 
can handle and what an organization needs to support itself (e.g., it doesn't 
scale linearly)

The picture looks more like this

700 customers -- one-man band (or equivalent) -- highly profitable

Then -- they start hiring employees to grow and scale the business

Unfortunately, there's a minimum amount of overhead required, and what was once 
a profitable business is now bleeding red ink and needs to reach 2,000 
customers before things get good again

Which creates an interesting question -- if you're such a WISP, do you just 
stop and sit tight at 700 customers? Or do you go-for-broke by trying to grow?

-Charles


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf 
Of jp
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 10:36 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

On Mon, Jan 04, 2010 at 05:28:49PM -0600, Wallace Walcher wrote:
 Having built my WISP from scratch with my own resources and currently being
 debt free in my operations, I often wonder who the people are who so quickly
 classify Mikrotik and Ubiquity gear as trash.  I am making a very good
 living deploying such trash.

I'm not ashamed of calling their bluff when they say something is 
carrier class, and it's not even released yet and then has firmware 
their either sets the timing wrong to the point of destroying the link 
or doesn't do vlans, and the firmware isn't pulled offline because it's 
the best stuff available.

I've got a couple UBNT M links up and like them, and believe it has a 
future. I just can't put my whole business on the line while they refine 
a product. It is wise and irrestible to try the stuff though.

I've got a downtown network of UBNT 802.11 gear, and the nanos and 
bullets just can't handle the interference as I'd like. It was intended 
to be an upgrade from the breezecom FH gear which was slow but reliable. 
The UBNT is faster, but less reliable in the presence of local 
interference. Now, if someone has an interference problem, we 
immediately swap them over to Alvarion 5.4 gear. It is more expensive, 
but we know we'll never have a service call after it's put in unless it 
gets hit by lightning or the customer wants to upgrade. We would have 
been wise to upgrade straight from the old stuff to 5.4. I'd still 
recommend the UBNT CPE for truly rural use.

Then MT is always making something wonky. A couple years ago, you could 
crash the MT with a SNMP query. Now, if you put an N card in and upgrade 
the firmware in your 433ah to 4.4, you might lose the ethernet ports. I 
stay 1-4 months behind on their firmware because it's a mystery what you 
might get. Changelogs show less than half of what they change. I do like 
them for basic routing and also use their gear for a few links. I think 
it's a step up from UBNT for ptp 802.11 based links. I also like MT 
because it's pretty low power use, which has practical value for solar 
sites or sites needing long battery backup. We don't have the time to 
tinker to use it for everything. We tried 900 with SR9 then XR9 and the 
reliability wasn't there compared to what we were accustomed to with 
Trango and Alvarion. 

Once you get to say 1000+ customers, things like having the staff for 
service calls and time to repair for customers are often more important 
than the brand of radio or the original cost of the radio. We do spend 
more on payroll than radios, despite deploying lots of expensive gear. 
Keeping CPE prices down is appreciated and important, but less tangible 
ongoing management, troubleshooting, and repair costs must also be 
considered. The reduction in support costs

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2010-01-05 Thread Matt Jenkins
Our company has almost 800 customers at the moment and 4 employees and 
is profitable!

Charles Wu wrote:
 Once you get to say 1000+ customers, things like having the staff for 
 service calls and time to repair for customers are often more important 
 than the brand of radio or the original cost of the radio. We do spend 
 more on payroll than radios, despite deploying lots of expensive gear. 
 Keeping CPE prices down is appreciated and important, but less tangible 
 ongoing management, troubleshooting, and repair costs must also be 
 considered. The reduction in support costs isn't an expection, it's a 
 reality and requirement in many situations.
 
 When you're working as a startup, labor costs are essentially zero (and if 
 you're asian like myself, you can call on your kids/relatives/grandparents to 
 work nights and weekends -- the classic Chinese restaurant business model =)
 
 However, when working with employees (and I don't care how smart / 
 hard-working / strong willed you are, there's still only 24 hours in a day) 
 -- labor costs become a bigger factor as the organization scales
 
 So this brings up a more interesting debate -- e.g., one-man band / 
 mom-and-pop vs. organizational strategy
 
 As an organization, trying to run a WISP with 700 residential customers is a 
 complete waste of time, however, as a one-man-band -- an 700 customer WISP 
 can be highly profitable
 
 The problem here is that there's a nasty chasm between what the one-man band 
 can handle and what an organization needs to support itself (e.g., it doesn't 
 scale linearly)
 
 The picture looks more like this
 
 700 customers -- one-man band (or equivalent) -- highly profitable
 
 Then -- they start hiring employees to grow and scale the business
 
 Unfortunately, there's a minimum amount of overhead required, and what was 
 once a profitable business is now bleeding red ink and needs to reach 2,000 
 customers before things get good again
 
 Which creates an interesting question -- if you're such a WISP, do you just 
 stop and sit tight at 700 customers? Or do you go-for-broke by trying to 
 grow?
 
 -Charles
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On 
 Behalf Of jp
 Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 10:36 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
 
 On Mon, Jan 04, 2010 at 05:28:49PM -0600, Wallace Walcher wrote:
 Having built my WISP from scratch with my own resources and currently being
 debt free in my operations, I often wonder who the people are who so quickly
 classify Mikrotik and Ubiquity gear as trash.  I am making a very good
 living deploying such trash.
 
 I'm not ashamed of calling their bluff when they say something is 
 carrier class, and it's not even released yet and then has firmware 
 their either sets the timing wrong to the point of destroying the link 
 or doesn't do vlans, and the firmware isn't pulled offline because it's 
 the best stuff available.
 
 I've got a couple UBNT M links up and like them, and believe it has a 
 future. I just can't put my whole business on the line while they refine 
 a product. It is wise and irrestible to try the stuff though.
 
 I've got a downtown network of UBNT 802.11 gear, and the nanos and 
 bullets just can't handle the interference as I'd like. It was intended 
 to be an upgrade from the breezecom FH gear which was slow but reliable. 
 The UBNT is faster, but less reliable in the presence of local 
 interference. Now, if someone has an interference problem, we 
 immediately swap them over to Alvarion 5.4 gear. It is more expensive, 
 but we know we'll never have a service call after it's put in unless it 
 gets hit by lightning or the customer wants to upgrade. We would have 
 been wise to upgrade straight from the old stuff to 5.4. I'd still 
 recommend the UBNT CPE for truly rural use.
 
 Then MT is always making something wonky. A couple years ago, you could 
 crash the MT with a SNMP query. Now, if you put an N card in and upgrade 
 the firmware in your 433ah to 4.4, you might lose the ethernet ports. I 
 stay 1-4 months behind on their firmware because it's a mystery what you 
 might get. Changelogs show less than half of what they change. I do like 
 them for basic routing and also use their gear for a few links. I think 
 it's a step up from UBNT for ptp 802.11 based links. I also like MT 
 because it's pretty low power use, which has practical value for solar 
 sites or sites needing long battery backup. We don't have the time to 
 tinker to use it for everything. We tried 900 with SR9 then XR9 and the 
 reliability wasn't there compared to what we were accustomed to with 
 Trango and Alvarion. 
 
 Once you get to say 1000+ customers, things like having the staff for 
 service calls and time to repair for customers are often more important 
 than the brand of radio or the original cost of the radio. We do spend 
 more on payroll than radios, despite deploying lots

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2010-01-05 Thread Josh Luthman
200 subs, 2 owners, 3 employees and profitable...

Super amazing fortunate we are.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources.
--- Albert Einstein


On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 7:06 PM, Matt Jenkins m...@smarterbroadband.netwrote:

 Our company has almost 800 customers at the moment and 4 employees and
 is profitable!

 Charles Wu wrote:
  Once you get to say 1000+ customers, things like having the staff for
  service calls and time to repair for customers are often more important
  than the brand of radio or the original cost of the radio. We do spend
  more on payroll than radios, despite deploying lots of expensive gear.
  Keeping CPE prices down is appreciated and important, but less tangible
  ongoing management, troubleshooting, and repair costs must also be
  considered. The reduction in support costs isn't an expection, it's a
  reality and requirement in many situations.
 
  When you're working as a startup, labor costs are essentially zero (and
 if you're asian like myself, you can call on your
 kids/relatives/grandparents to work nights and weekends -- the classic
 Chinese restaurant business model =)
 
  However, when working with employees (and I don't care how smart /
 hard-working / strong willed you are, there's still only 24 hours in a day)
 -- labor costs become a bigger factor as the organization scales
 
  So this brings up a more interesting debate -- e.g., one-man band /
 mom-and-pop vs. organizational strategy
 
  As an organization, trying to run a WISP with 700 residential customers
 is a complete waste of time, however, as a one-man-band -- an 700 customer
 WISP can be highly profitable
 
  The problem here is that there's a nasty chasm between what the one-man
 band can handle and what an organization needs to support itself (e.g., it
 doesn't scale linearly)
 
  The picture looks more like this
 
  700 customers -- one-man band (or equivalent) -- highly profitable
 
  Then -- they start hiring employees to grow and scale the business
 
  Unfortunately, there's a minimum amount of overhead required, and what
 was once a profitable business is now bleeding red ink and needs to reach
 2,000 customers before things get good again
 
  Which creates an interesting question -- if you're such a WISP, do you
 just stop and sit tight at 700 customers? Or do you go-for-broke by trying
 to grow?
 
  -Charles
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of jp
  Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 10:36 AM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
 
  On Mon, Jan 04, 2010 at 05:28:49PM -0600, Wallace Walcher wrote:
  Having built my WISP from scratch with my own resources and currently
 being
  debt free in my operations, I often wonder who the people are who so
 quickly
  classify Mikrotik and Ubiquity gear as trash.  I am making a very good
  living deploying such trash.
 
  I'm not ashamed of calling their bluff when they say something is
  carrier class, and it's not even released yet and then has firmware
  their either sets the timing wrong to the point of destroying the link
  or doesn't do vlans, and the firmware isn't pulled offline because it's
  the best stuff available.
 
  I've got a couple UBNT M links up and like them, and believe it has a
  future. I just can't put my whole business on the line while they refine
  a product. It is wise and irrestible to try the stuff though.
 
  I've got a downtown network of UBNT 802.11 gear, and the nanos and
  bullets just can't handle the interference as I'd like. It was intended
  to be an upgrade from the breezecom FH gear which was slow but reliable.
  The UBNT is faster, but less reliable in the presence of local
  interference. Now, if someone has an interference problem, we
  immediately swap them over to Alvarion 5.4 gear. It is more expensive,
  but we know we'll never have a service call after it's put in unless it
  gets hit by lightning or the customer wants to upgrade. We would have
  been wise to upgrade straight from the old stuff to 5.4. I'd still
  recommend the UBNT CPE for truly rural use.
 
  Then MT is always making something wonky. A couple years ago, you could
  crash the MT with a SNMP query. Now, if you put an N card in and upgrade
  the firmware in your 433ah to 4.4, you might lose the ethernet ports. I
  stay 1-4 months behind on their firmware because it's a mystery what you
  might get. Changelogs show less than half of what they change. I do like
  them for basic routing and also use their gear for a few links. I think
  it's a step up from UBNT for ptp 802.11 based links. I also like MT
  because it's pretty low power use, which has practical value for solar
  sites or sites needing long battery backup. We don't have the time to
  tinker to use it for everything. We tried 900 with SR9 then XR9 and the
  reliability

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2010-01-05 Thread Gino Villarini
1800 subs, 18 employes and profitable

Sent from my Motorola Startac...


On Jan 5, 2010, at 7:15 PM, Josh Luthman  
j...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote:

 200 subs, 2 owners, 3 employees and profitable...

 Super amazing fortunate we are.

 Josh Luthman
 Office: 937-552-2340
 Direct: 937-552-2343
 1100 Wayne St
 Suite 1337
 Troy, OH 45373

 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources.
 --- Albert Einstein


 On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 7:06 PM, Matt Jenkins m...@smarterbroadband.net 
 wrote:

 Our company has almost 800 customers at the moment and 4 employees  
 and
 is profitable!

 Charles Wu wrote:
 Once you get to say 1000+ customers, things like having the staff  
 for
 service calls and time to repair for customers are often more  
 important
 than the brand of radio or the original cost of the radio. We do  
 spend
 more on payroll than radios, despite deploying lots of expensive  
 gear.
 Keeping CPE prices down is appreciated and important, but less  
 tangible
 ongoing management, troubleshooting, and repair costs must also be
 considered. The reduction in support costs isn't an expection,  
 it's a
 reality and requirement in many situations.

 When you're working as a startup, labor costs are essentially zero  
 (and
 if you're asian like myself, you can call on your
 kids/relatives/grandparents to work nights and weekends -- the  
 classic
 Chinese restaurant business model =)

 However, when working with employees (and I don't care how smart /
 hard-working / strong willed you are, there's still only 24 hours  
 in a day)
 -- labor costs become a bigger factor as the organization scales

 So this brings up a more interesting debate -- e.g., one-man band /
 mom-and-pop vs. organizational strategy

 As an organization, trying to run a WISP with 700 residential  
 customers
 is a complete waste of time, however, as a one-man-band -- an 700  
 customer
 WISP can be highly profitable

 The problem here is that there's a nasty chasm between what the  
 one-man
 band can handle and what an organization needs to support itself  
 (e.g., it
 doesn't scale linearly)

 The picture looks more like this

 700 customers -- one-man band (or equivalent) -- highly profitable

 Then -- they start hiring employees to grow and scale the business

 Unfortunately, there's a minimum amount of overhead required, and  
 what
 was once a profitable business is now bleeding red ink and needs to  
 reach
 2,000 customers before things get good again

 Which creates an interesting question -- if you're such a WISP, do  
 you
 just stop and sit tight at 700 customers? Or do you go-for-broke  
 by trying
 to grow?

 -Charles


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- 
 boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of jp
 Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 10:36 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 On Mon, Jan 04, 2010 at 05:28:49PM -0600, Wallace Walcher wrote:
 Having built my WISP from scratch with my own resources and  
 currently
 being
 debt free in my operations, I often wonder who the people are who  
 so
 quickly
 classify Mikrotik and Ubiquity gear as trash.  I am making a very  
 good
 living deploying such trash.

 I'm not ashamed of calling their bluff when they say something is
 carrier class, and it's not even released yet and then has  
 firmware
 their either sets the timing wrong to the point of destroying the  
 link
 or doesn't do vlans, and the firmware isn't pulled offline because  
 it's
 the best stuff available.

 I've got a couple UBNT M links up and like them, and believe it  
 has a
 future. I just can't put my whole business on the line while they  
 refine
 a product. It is wise and irrestible to try the stuff though.

 I've got a downtown network of UBNT 802.11 gear, and the nanos and
 bullets just can't handle the interference as I'd like. It was  
 intended
 to be an upgrade from the breezecom FH gear which was slow but  
 reliable.
 The UBNT is faster, but less reliable in the presence of local
 interference. Now, if someone has an interference problem, we
 immediately swap them over to Alvarion 5.4 gear. It is more  
 expensive,
 but we know we'll never have a service call after it's put in  
 unless it
 gets hit by lightning or the customer wants to upgrade. We would  
 have
 been wise to upgrade straight from the old stuff to 5.4. I'd still
 recommend the UBNT CPE for truly rural use.

 Then MT is always making something wonky. A couple years ago, you  
 could
 crash the MT with a SNMP query. Now, if you put an N card in and  
 upgrade
 the firmware in your 433ah to 4.4, you might lose the ethernet  
 ports. I
 stay 1-4 months behind on their firmware because it's a mystery  
 what you
 might get. Changelogs show less than half of what they change. I  
 do like
 them for basic routing and also use their gear for a few links. I  
 think
 it's a step up from UBNT for ptp 802.11 based links. I also like MT
 because it's pretty low

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2010-01-04 Thread Wallace Walcher
Having built my WISP from scratch with my own resources and currently being
debt free in my operations, I often wonder who the people are who so quickly
classify Mikrotik and Ubiquity gear as trash.  I am making a very good
living deploying such trash.

My perception is they are either people who are not spending their own money
- they are working for the investor, or possibly borrowing or leasing the
equipment, or they are a vendor promoting their own high margin goods.
Those that are WISPs seem to have the perception that it is better to
install higher cost equipment, no matter what the cost, if it will provide
them an expected reduction in support costs.

What I have found in my area is that people who deploy such equipment have a
very hard go of it, mainly because the replacement costs during the storm
season eat their lunch.  My operational plan is different than some - I
focus on residential customers on the outskirts of town that do not have
access to Cable and DSL.  Those focusing on business accounts in cities
would understandably have a different perspective.  But I feel very
fortunate to have a sub $200 total CPE cost (sometimes sub $100) with the
Mikrotik-type solution.



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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2010-01-03 Thread Tom Sharples
Comments inline below:


I find these comparisons of products like Ubiquiti / Mikrotik vs. Motorola 
/ WiMAX products to be somewhat unrealistic -- it seems to me that it's 
like comparing something that's hypothetical and looks good on paper and 
hoping that it will actually work

I don't think Microtik and Ubiquiti are particularly similar - they 
certainly seem to have a very different philosophy and probably should be 
dicussed separately.

I've also had some reservations about the integrated Ubiquiti units (see my 
earlier postings).  But I have to say that those look primarily like 
teething issues, likely to be largely addressed within the next year to 18 
months, rather than anything fundamentally wrong with Ubiquiti's technical 
approach to their integrated radios.


 Here's my question; sure, on paper, the new Ubiquiti WHATEVER will give me 
 a Gazillion Mbps with Beamforming and everything for $10 -- but has anyone 
 actually made this stuff work and scaled it into a profitable business?

Probably not yet. But that's coming.


 Many of the WISPs that I've talked to who gone down this path have had to 
 upgrade / replace / retool their networks due to the fact that these 
 systems don't scale

 The one WISP that I know using Ubiquiti / Mikrotik with several thousand 
 customers is only using them as endpoints on a Bel-Air Network Mesh 
 infrastructure that they spent almost $1 million building out

Our largest WISP (around 1200 customers) is using Ubiquiti that way too, at 
present. But they are strongly requesting that, instead of fully-integrated 
outdoor mesh radios, we develop an outdoor network appliance running our 
Layer 3 mesh software and related ISP functions, into which they could plug 
one or more separate Ubiquiti interated radios. That actually makes a fair 
amount of sense - in the ISP market we clearly can't compete at Layer 2 with 
Ubiquiti's astonishing price-points.


 It reminds me of the Asterisk vs. Broadsoft / Metaswitch VoIP debates from 
 a couple of years back -- sure, Asterisk was free while a Broadsoft 
 platform had an entry cost of $250k, but I know of tons of Broadsoft 
 providers who support tens of thousands of customers for hosted PBX, and 
 the only guy I know doing it on Asterisk ended up spending over $500k 
 hiring a custom programming team in Russia to rebuild the system for him 
 from scratch (he was joking to me that in hindsight, it would've been 
 cheaper and a lot easier to just buy a Broadsoft)

Comparing software to hardware here - apples and oranges. Ubiquiti clearly 
has shown the ability to bring unbelievably low cost production with decent 
(and improving) quality to bear on this market, and unless they really step 
in it, their production problems will be solved eventually. I probably would 
have done things a little differently - e.g. pricing the offerings so that 
there's a reasonable margin even if you don't completely take over the 
world, which their current pricing model probably requires to get to a 
$100MM+ / yr company - but you can't argue with their success.

Tom S.



 I would like to be proven wrong here...so shoot =)

 -Charles



 
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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear - licensed bands btw

2009-12-31 Thread Matt Liotta
Many of those licenses had serious restrictions, which is why the auction 
reverse was so low in the first place.

-Matt

On Dec 31, 2009, at 1:24 AM, Charles Wu wrote:

 Speaking of which, did anyone notice the results of the latest BRS Auction 
 (#86)
 
 Licenses went for an average of $0.03 / MHz POP
 
 That means if 60 MHz covering 100,000 people (as defined by Census 2000 
 numbers) would have gone for $180k -- with the small business 35% credit - 
 that means a WISP would've paid $117k for that spectrum
 
 While $117k is nothing to sneeze at, it's just worth noting that getting a 
 license is not something unreasonable or unobtainable for the small guy
 
 -Charles
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-31 Thread Randy Cosby
Let me throw a couple  devil's advocate arguments into the mix.

The claim was made that the advantage of Motorola is that you can get 
100 subs per AP, while a Mikrotik or UBNT solution might get 30-40.  
Based on these assumptions, could the argument not be made that a year 
from now, a 100-subscriber Motorola AP with 14 megabit total capacity 
will be much more over-utilized than a Mikrotik 14meg solution with only 
30-40 subscribers?  I'm seeing this already on older Trango AP's with 
70-80 subscribers.  10meg at 80 subscribers is just too much 
oversubscription with today's usage patterns.

Then you can also look at the fact that the mikrotik can do the 14 meg 
in 10mhz bands, adding more efficiency (yes, gps sync helps even more, I 
know!).  Then you look at a UBNT offering with, let's say 50 megabit in 
20mhz with just 40 subscribers.  You may get more life and get further 
along the growth curve with UBNT.  Will it really scale to even 40?  
Dunno.. Sure would like to hear of real world experience, but that will 
obviously take time.

Randy

On 12/31/2009 7:48 AM, Rubens Kuhl wrote:
 Ubiquiti's move into the large scale market, whether it will work or
 not, is just happening now with AirMax. It slows the overall
 performance to much less than 150+ Mbps, but it might get to the
 100/user per-AP scale. 3 or 6 months from now we will know of either
 large deployments or #ubntfail stories.


 Rubens


 -- Forwarded message --
 From: Charles Wuc...@cticonnect.com
 Date: Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:33 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org



 Let's go back to the original thread -- we were talking about how
 Ubiquiti was changing the game with their new $75 AP that does 150
 Mb or something (as compared to the Alvarion/Motorolas/WiMAX guys of
 the world who still don't get it with their $3/5/10k APs) -- up
 until now, it's been my experience that this is an apples to oranges
 debate (heck, couldn't I make the same argument that belkin or dlink
 has had a super-N mimo AP for $69 at Best Buy for some time now?)

 That being said, if someone has built such a system, please pipe up
 and share your experiences -- I'm always interested in learning how to
 do things better/faster/cheaper...


 
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 http://signup.wispa.org/
 

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-- 
Randy Cosby
Vice President
InfoWest, Inc

435-674-0165 x 2010

http://www.infowest.com/

Letting off steam always produces more heat than light. - Neal A. Maxwell




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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-31 Thread Michael Baird
We've just built out a new tower with Ubiquity M's in 2.4 w/airmax, we 
will be doing voice across it. We've been using the M's as client radios 
for several months the firmware is at a good base right now I think. 
Once we advertise this tower to our dialup base we will quickly test the 
scalability.

We've been extremely happy with the pre-airmax gear, low failure rate, 
nice config/featureset, solid OS, tremendous support/customer 
interaction, not to mention the excellent ROI.

This is great for rural, but we want to move into some of the cities in 
our area that is why we are looking at Wimax. Ubiquity doesn't play in 
3.65 yet and it won't for a while and we need to move quickly, leasing 
loops from the LEC's is killing our wireline profit.

Regards
Michael Baird
 Ubiquiti's move into the large scale market, whether it will work or
 not, is just happening now with AirMax. It slows the overall
 performance to much less than 150+ Mbps, but it might get to the
 100/user per-AP scale. 3 or 6 months from now we will know of either
 large deployments or #ubntfail stories.


 Rubens


 -- Forwarded message --
 From: Charles Wu c...@cticonnect.com
 Date: Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:33 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org



 Let's go back to the original thread -- we were talking about how
 Ubiquiti was changing the game with their new $75 AP that does 150
 Mb or something (as compared to the Alvarion/Motorolas/WiMAX guys of
 the world who still don't get it with their $3/5/10k APs) -- up
 until now, it's been my experience that this is an apples to oranges
 debate (heck, couldn't I make the same argument that belkin or dlink
 has had a super-N mimo AP for $69 at Best Buy for some time now?)

 That being said, if someone has built such a system, please pipe up
 and share your experiences -- I'm always interested in learning how to
 do things better/faster/cheaper...


 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 
  
 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
   




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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-31 Thread Michael Baird
My most populated UBNT has 43 people on it (too much), RTS 768 on each 
client radio, the CPU utilization averages 32%, peak of 68%, no 
complaints of performance. Our AP's do very little however no routing/no 
nat/no auth, traffic shaping/auth is done at the IP level on the 
redback. I plan to swap the radios out at this tower for BulletM series 
radios in non-airmax mode as they have 3 times the CPU horsepower, and I 
should be able to get close to 100 per sector on my legacy towers I believe.

Regards
Michael Baird
 Let me throw a couple  devil's advocate arguments into the mix.

 The claim was made that the advantage of Motorola is that you can get 
 100 subs per AP, while a Mikrotik or UBNT solution might get 30-40.  
 Based on these assumptions, could the argument not be made that a year 
 from now, a 100-subscriber Motorola AP with 14 megabit total capacity 
 will be much more over-utilized than a Mikrotik 14meg solution with only 
 30-40 subscribers?  I'm seeing this already on older Trango AP's with 
 70-80 subscribers.  10meg at 80 subscribers is just too much 
 oversubscription with today's usage patterns.

 Then you can also look at the fact that the mikrotik can do the 14 meg 
 in 10mhz bands, adding more efficiency (yes, gps sync helps even more, I 
 know!).  Then you look at a UBNT offering with, let's say 50 megabit in 
 20mhz with just 40 subscribers.  You may get more life and get further 
 along the growth curve with UBNT.  Will it really scale to even 40?  
 Dunno.. Sure would like to hear of real world experience, but that will 
 obviously take time.

 Randy

 On 12/31/2009 7:48 AM, Rubens Kuhl wrote:
   
 Ubiquiti's move into the large scale market, whether it will work or
 not, is just happening now with AirMax. It slows the overall
 performance to much less than 150+ Mbps, but it might get to the
 100/user per-AP scale. 3 or 6 months from now we will know of either
 large deployments or #ubntfail stories.


 Rubens


 -- Forwarded message --
 From: Charles Wuc...@cticonnect.com
 Date: Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:33 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org



 Let's go back to the original thread -- we were talking about how
 Ubiquiti was changing the game with their new $75 AP that does 150
 Mb or something (as compared to the Alvarion/Motorolas/WiMAX guys of
 the world who still don't get it with their $3/5/10k APs) -- up
 until now, it's been my experience that this is an apples to oranges
 debate (heck, couldn't I make the same argument that belkin or dlink
 has had a super-N mimo AP for $69 at Best Buy for some time now?)

 That being said, if someone has built such a system, please pipe up
 and share your experiences -- I'm always interested in learning how to
 do things better/faster/cheaper...


 
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 http://signup.wispa.org/
 

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 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

 

   




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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-31 Thread Mike Hammett
I know that in some cases it's appropriate and I've said this every time 
this discussion comes up, but running this holy grail of 100 customers per 
AP is just rubbish and will become more rubbish as time goes on.  These 
lists alternate between the same two threads almost indefinitely.  One is 
that everything but Canopy is horrible, while the other is that we don't 
have enough bandwidth to provide current, much less next-generation 
services.

Low bandwidth wireless systems will not work with these 100 users per AP as 
NetFlix and similar services increase adoption.  Wireless systems will have 
to support hundreds of megabits per second if we're going to have 100 users 
on an AP, not the 40 the latest and greatest Canopy supports.  If UBNT can 
only do 40 customers out of it's 100 megabit PtMP AirMax system, great! 
When people fire up their 5 meg HD NetFlix streams, everything still works.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: Rubens Kuhl rube...@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 8:48 AM
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: [WISPA]  Wimax gear

 Ubiquiti's move into the large scale market, whether it will work or
 not, is just happening now with AirMax. It slows the overall
 performance to much less than 150+ Mbps, but it might get to the
 100/user per-AP scale. 3 or 6 months from now we will know of either
 large deployments or #ubntfail stories.


 Rubens


 -- Forwarded message --
 From: Charles Wu c...@cticonnect.com
 Date: Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:33 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org



 Let's go back to the original thread -- we were talking about how
 Ubiquiti was changing the game with their new $75 AP that does 150
 Mb or something (as compared to the Alvarion/Motorolas/WiMAX guys of
 the world who still don't get it with their $3/5/10k APs) -- up
 until now, it's been my experience that this is an apples to oranges
 debate (heck, couldn't I make the same argument that belkin or dlink
 has had a super-N mimo AP for $69 at Best Buy for some time now?)

 That being said, if someone has built such a system, please pipe up
 and share your experiences -- I'm always interested in learning how to
 do things better/faster/cheaper...


 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 

 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
 



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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-31 Thread Gino Villarini
You need to take in consideration that the Ubnt AirMax true data  
thoughtput is about 70 Mbps in highest modulation and under very low  
noise scenario.

Now take on consideration that it uses dual pol to achieve this so you  
limit your colocation options

Taking that in account, expect 30 to 50 Mbps  In a true field  
deployment under average noise conditions

And you can only colocate 3 or 4 aps per site, then try to growth your  
footprint

Compare that to the Canopy 430 line with 45 Mbps per ap with gps sync  
and   A very broad channel reuse facility

Sent from my Motorola Startac...


On Dec 31, 2009, at 11:20 AM, Randy Cosby dco...@infowest.com wrote:

 Let me throw a couple  devil's advocate arguments into the mix.

 The claim was made that the advantage of Motorola is that you can get
 100 subs per AP, while a Mikrotik or UBNT solution might get 30-40.
 Based on these assumptions, could the argument not be made that a year
 from now, a 100-subscriber Motorola AP with 14 megabit total capacity
 will be much more over-utilized than a Mikrotik 14meg solution with  
 only
 30-40 subscribers?  I'm seeing this already on older Trango AP's with
 70-80 subscribers.  10meg at 80 subscribers is just too much
 oversubscription with today's usage patterns.

 Then you can also look at the fact that the mikrotik can do the 14 meg
 in 10mhz bands, adding more efficiency (yes, gps sync helps even  
 more, I
 know!).  Then you look at a UBNT offering with, let's say 50 megabit  
 in
 20mhz with just 40 subscribers.  You may get more life and get further
 along the growth curve with UBNT.  Will it really scale to even 40?
 Dunno.. Sure would like to hear of real world experience, but that  
 will
 obviously take time.

 Randy

 On 12/31/2009 7:48 AM, Rubens Kuhl wrote:
 Ubiquiti's move into the large scale market, whether it will work or
 not, is just happening now with AirMax. It slows the overall
 performance to much less than 150+ Mbps, but it might get to the
 100/user per-AP scale. 3 or 6 months from now we will know of either
 large deployments or #ubntfail stories.


 Rubens


 -- Forwarded message --
 From: Charles Wuc...@cticonnect.com
 Date: Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:33 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org



 Let's go back to the original thread -- we were talking about how
 Ubiquiti was changing the game with their new $75 AP that does 150
 Mb or something (as compared to the Alvarion/Motorolas/WiMAX guys of
 the world who still don't get it with their $3/5/10k APs) -- up
 until now, it's been my experience that this is an apples to  
 oranges
 debate (heck, couldn't I make the same argument that belkin or dlink
 has had a super-N mimo AP for $69 at Best Buy for some time now?)

 That being said, if someone has built such a system, please pipe up
 and share your experiences -- I'm always interested in learning how  
 to
 do things better/faster/cheaper...


 --- 
 --- 
 --- 
 --- 
 
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 http://signup.wispa.org/
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 --- 
 --- 
 

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 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/


 -- 
 Randy Cosby
 Vice President
 InfoWest, Inc

 435-674-0165 x 2010

 http://www.infowest.com/

 Letting off steam always produces more heat than light. - Neal A.  
 Maxwell



 --- 
 --- 
 --- 
 --- 
 
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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-31 Thread Michael Baird
Gino Villarini wrote:
 You need to take in consideration that the Ubnt AirMax true data  
 thoughtput is about 70 Mbps in highest modulation and under very low  
 noise scenario
   
Ok, well that's probably a good estimate w/20 mhz channel width.
 Now take on consideration that it uses dual pol to achieve this so you  
 limit your colocation options
   
Not sure what difference this makes, uses the same amount of frequency 
and both polls are in the same antenna.
 Taking that in account, expect 30 to 50 Mbps  In a true field  
 deployment under average noise conditions
   
Ok, what is wrong with that, sounds great.
 And you can only colocate 3 or 4 aps per site, then try to growth your  
 footprint
   
Why? There is no difference in colocation with Airmax vs. non-airmax, do 
you think each chain needs it's own channel or something? They don't.
 Compare that to the Canopy 430 line with 45 Mbps per ap with gps sync  
 and   A very broad channel reuse facility

 Sent from my Motorola Startac...


 On Dec 31, 2009, at 11:20 AM, Randy Cosby dco...@infowest.com wrote:

   
 Let me throw a couple  devil's advocate arguments into the mix.

 The claim was made that the advantage of Motorola is that you can get
 100 subs per AP, while a Mikrotik or UBNT solution might get 30-40.
 Based on these assumptions, could the argument not be made that a year
 from now, a 100-subscriber Motorola AP with 14 megabit total capacity
 will be much more over-utilized than a Mikrotik 14meg solution with  
 only
 30-40 subscribers?  I'm seeing this already on older Trango AP's with
 70-80 subscribers.  10meg at 80 subscribers is just too much
 oversubscription with today's usage patterns.

 Then you can also look at the fact that the mikrotik can do the 14 meg
 in 10mhz bands, adding more efficiency (yes, gps sync helps even  
 more, I
 know!).  Then you look at a UBNT offering with, let's say 50 megabit  
 in
 20mhz with just 40 subscribers.  You may get more life and get further
 along the growth curve with UBNT.  Will it really scale to even 40?
 Dunno.. Sure would like to hear of real world experience, but that  
 will
 obviously take time.

 Randy

 On 12/31/2009 7:48 AM, Rubens Kuhl wrote:
 
 Ubiquiti's move into the large scale market, whether it will work or
 not, is just happening now with AirMax. It slows the overall
 performance to much less than 150+ Mbps, but it might get to the
 100/user per-AP scale. 3 or 6 months from now we will know of either
 large deployments or #ubntfail stories.


 Rubens


 -- Forwarded message --
 From: Charles Wuc...@cticonnect.com
 Date: Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:33 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org



 Let's go back to the original thread -- we were talking about how
 Ubiquiti was changing the game with their new $75 AP that does 150
 Mb or something (as compared to the Alvarion/Motorolas/WiMAX guys of
 the world who still don't get it with their $3/5/10k APs) -- up
 until now, it's been my experience that this is an apples to  
 oranges
 debate (heck, couldn't I make the same argument that belkin or dlink
 has had a super-N mimo AP for $69 at Best Buy for some time now?)

 That being said, if someone has built such a system, please pipe up
 and share your experiences -- I'm always interested in learning how  
 to
 do things better/faster/cheaper...


 --- 
 --- 
 --- 
 --- 
 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 --- 
 --- 
 --- 
 --- 
 

 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

   
 -- 
 Randy Cosby
 Vice President
 InfoWest, Inc

 435-674-0165 x 2010

 http://www.infowest.com/

 Letting off steam always produces more heat than light. - Neal A.  
 Maxwell



 --- 
 --- 
 --- 
 --- 
 
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 http://signup.wispa.org/
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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-31 Thread Gino Villarini
Not sure what difference this makes, uses the same amount of frequency 
and both polls are in the same antenna.

You probability of finding clean spectrum on both polarities drops and
your collocation options using cross polarity and channel separation
drops too

Why? There is no difference in colocation with Airmax vs. non-airmax,
do 
you think each chain needs it's own channel or something? They don't.

I do know they don't need diff channels, but as stated above, you are
very limited on channel selections, and finding the right channel on
sector A, means that you limit yourself on sector B, C and D. (thinking
you are using 4 sectors per site) Then extrapolate that to 4 to 6
adjacent tower sites and youll be dancing the channel change tune for a
while.  What happens inf 6 months down the road a Tsunami PTP Link kills
2 of your channels on 1 Tower 



Gino A. Villarini
g...@aeronetpr.com
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
787.273.4143

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Michael Baird
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 1:23 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

Gino Villarini wrote:
 You need to take in consideration that the Ubnt AirMax true data  
 thoughtput is about 70 Mbps in highest modulation and under very low  
 noise scenario
   
Ok, well that's probably a good estimate w/20 mhz channel width.
 Now take on consideration that it uses dual pol to achieve this so you

 limit your colocation options
   
Not sure what difference this makes, uses the same amount of frequency 
and both polls are in the same antenna.
 Taking that in account, expect 30 to 50 Mbps  In a true field  
 deployment under average noise conditions
   
Ok, what is wrong with that, sounds great.
 And you can only colocate 3 or 4 aps per site, then try to growth your

 footprint
   
Why? There is no difference in colocation with Airmax vs. non-airmax, do

you think each chain needs it's own channel or something? They don't.
 Compare that to the Canopy 430 line with 45 Mbps per ap with gps sync

 and   A very broad channel reuse facility

 Sent from my Motorola Startac...


 On Dec 31, 2009, at 11:20 AM, Randy Cosby dco...@infowest.com
wrote:

   
 Let me throw a couple  devil's advocate arguments into the mix.

 The claim was made that the advantage of Motorola is that you can get
 100 subs per AP, while a Mikrotik or UBNT solution might get 30-40.
 Based on these assumptions, could the argument not be made that a
year
 from now, a 100-subscriber Motorola AP with 14 megabit total capacity
 will be much more over-utilized than a Mikrotik 14meg solution with  
 only
 30-40 subscribers?  I'm seeing this already on older Trango AP's with
 70-80 subscribers.  10meg at 80 subscribers is just too much
 oversubscription with today's usage patterns.

 Then you can also look at the fact that the mikrotik can do the 14
meg
 in 10mhz bands, adding more efficiency (yes, gps sync helps even  
 more, I
 know!).  Then you look at a UBNT offering with, let's say 50 megabit

 in
 20mhz with just 40 subscribers.  You may get more life and get
further
 along the growth curve with UBNT.  Will it really scale to even 40?
 Dunno.. Sure would like to hear of real world experience, but that  
 will
 obviously take time.

 Randy

 On 12/31/2009 7:48 AM, Rubens Kuhl wrote:
 
 Ubiquiti's move into the large scale market, whether it will work or
 not, is just happening now with AirMax. It slows the overall
 performance to much less than 150+ Mbps, but it might get to the
 100/user per-AP scale. 3 or 6 months from now we will know of either
 large deployments or #ubntfail stories.


 Rubens


 -- Forwarded message --
 From: Charles Wuc...@cticonnect.com
 Date: Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:33 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org



 Let's go back to the original thread -- we were talking about how
 Ubiquiti was changing the game with their new $75 AP that does 150
 Mb or something (as compared to the Alvarion/Motorolas/WiMAX guys of
 the world who still don't get it with their $3/5/10k APs) -- up
 until now, it's been my experience that this is an apples to  
 oranges
 debate (heck, couldn't I make the same argument that belkin or dlink
 has had a super-N mimo AP for $69 at Best Buy for some time now?)

 That being said, if someone has built such a system, please pipe up
 and share your experiences -- I'm always interested in learning how

 to
 do things better/faster/cheaper...


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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-30 Thread Gino Villarini
I don't see LTE being developed for other markets than cellcos


Don't expect a LTE system for EBS spectrum

Sent from my Motorola Startac...


On Dec 30, 2009, at 3:00 AM, Blake Covarrubias bl...@beamspeed.com  
wrote:

 I'd say the question boils down to who's going to foot the bill for  
 the deployment -- you or the government =)


 With or without government stimulus I'm curious of the lists'  
 general consensus on whether or not WiMAX is worthwhile investment  
 in this 'war' of LTE vs WiMAX. Having Uncle Sam foot the bill on a  
 deployment definitely lowers / removes the financial barrier, but  
 doesn't really matter if deploying WiMAX is a foolish endeavor from  
 the get-go due to lack of customer demand or vendors ceasing  
 development.

 I believe WiMAX has an opportunity to be commercially viable at  
 least for a couple of years, and I don't see any reason to not take  
 advantage of that fact. But, what do I know.

 Consider this a question solely for the sake of debate.

 --
 Blake Covarrubias


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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-30 Thread Stuart Pierce
Sounds like you gave a choice for the answer, if the government does, then you 
have, twice. WIMAX equipment cost is the entry block. As broadband needs keep 
growing, you'll see an increased number of smaller wisp cells using equipment 
such as UBNT. That is until the government uses your money to give to the big 
three under the guise that America needs it to solve the health care, 
unemployment, terrorist problems.

-- Original Message --
From: Charles Wu c...@cticonnect.com
Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Date:  Wed, 30 Dec 2009 00:18:48 -0600

  LTE has already won and .16e will find only small, limited life and even 
 less
 mass development.

Do you see any point in small BRS/EBS (MMDS/ITFS) license holders deploying 
802.16e in these frequency bands?

Hi Blake,

I'd say the question boils down to who's going to foot the bill for the 
deployment -- you or the government =)

-Charles






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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-30 Thread 3-dB Networks
Depends... are you deploying WiMAX for fixed operation or for mobile
operation with self install kits, etc.

If Fixed... then yes I think it has a future.  Professional installs, and
better QoS in typically virgin spectrum ='s opportunity.

If not... then I don't think a WISP (as we probably define it) is ever
really going to be profitable with it. Self-installs on wireless gear have
problems in their own right (look at all of the Clearwire horror stories,
and they get to use the EBS spectrum) and mobility is doomed because they
will probably only be mobile within your footprint, which for most WISP's
isn't that big (why pay xxx amount to only be able to roam in city x when I
could pay xxx for LTE/3G and roam across the country).

802.16e in its pure form IMHO is only going to work for carriers like Open
Range and Clearwire utilizing 2.5GHz licensed spectrum.  

But what about Motorola's new product?  Remember it's a fixed 802.16e, so
you don't get the benefits of mobility, no indoor CPE's are planned as far
as I know, but it is supposed to pay off in NLOS situations (which is
anecdotal until we can get gear on a tower and test).

Daniel White
3-dB Networks
http://www.3dbnetworks.com
dan...@3-db.net


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Blake Covarrubias
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:56 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 I'd say the question boils down to who's going to foot the bill for the
deployment -- you or the government =)


With or without government stimulus I'm curious of the lists' general
consensus on whether or not WiMAX is worthwhile investment in this 'war' of
LTE vs WiMAX. Having Uncle Sam foot the bill on a deployment definitely
lowers / removes the financial barrier, but doesn't really matter if
deploying WiMAX is a foolish endeavor from the get-go due to lack of
customer demand or vendors ceasing development.

I believe WiMAX has an opportunity to be commercially viable at least for a
couple of years, and I don't see any reason to not take advantage of that
fact. But, what do I know.

Consider this a question solely for the sake of debate.

--
Blake Covarrubias




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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-30 Thread 3-dB Networks
Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh

http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.htm

Daniel White
3-dB Networks
http://www.3dbnetworks.com
dan...@3-db.net


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche...  in the 
right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the Porsche

is 35x more expensive.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 Tom

 ROTFL

 You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e

 That's like comparing a Yugo  with a Porsche

 Sent from my Motorola Startac...


 On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net
 wrote:

 I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is
 here for
 the long haul.
 From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto
 products
 on their way.

 No problem with the $350 CPE level.

 But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO.

 The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is
 not
 that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, very
 insignificant compared to the market value of the higher capacity.
 Its all
 opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more
 antennas,
 etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today than their
 legacy
 components were when they were designed).

 I'd also argue that RF speed/price  is similar to Computer CPU speed/
 price
 concepts.  50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps was
 to us 5
 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the cost of
 10mbps 5
 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the new technology.
 This is
 from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as
 well as
 technology advancement.

 I'd pose the same arguements

 Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500.   Paying 35x more for an AP is a
 tough
 call.

 Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP, simply
 because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create noise,
 before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from
 calling
 themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs.

 But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage
 line AP
 cost in order to make a big splash in the market.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net
 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


 Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen
 Moto
 give
 pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way
 off
 the
 mark.  I hope it's right for Moto sake :-)

 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks
 http://www.3dbnetworks.com
 dan...@3-db.net

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-
 boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Gino Villarini
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 Soon as in q1 or q2

 IIRC
 $350~ SM
 $3500~ AP

 Specs are in the website under 320 series

 Sent from my Motorola Startac...


 On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Tom DeReggi
 wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net
 wrote:

 moto

 Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean
 they are
 talking about comming out with?

 In WISP time, there is a big difference.

 Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at
 current
 Canopy level price points.
 But that is an if.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:05 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


 Less?

 Moto is comming out with a 16e system with 4.5 bits per hz using
 mimo

 Sent from my Motorola Startac...


 On Dec 29, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com
 wrote:

 Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)?

 All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency,
 less
 throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't
 get
 any
 hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards,
 since
 those are only applicable to licensed bands.


 Patrick Leary
 Aperto Networks
 813.426.4230 mobile

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-30 Thread Gino Villarini
Funny

But I would say Im very satisfied with my current BMW

Gino A. Villarini
g...@aeronetpr.com
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
787.273.4143

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of 3-dB Networks
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:04 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh

http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.htm

Daniel White
3-dB Networks
http://www.3dbnetworks.com
dan...@3-db.net


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche...  in the

right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the
Porsche

is 35x more expensive.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 Tom

 ROTFL

 You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e

 That's like comparing a Yugo  with a Porsche

 Sent from my Motorola Startac...


 On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net
 wrote:

 I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is
 here for
 the long haul.
 From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto
 products
 on their way.

 No problem with the $350 CPE level.

 But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO.

 The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is
 not
 that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, very
 insignificant compared to the market value of the higher capacity.
 Its all
 opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more
 antennas,
 etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today than their
 legacy
 components were when they were designed).

 I'd also argue that RF speed/price  is similar to Computer CPU speed/
 price
 concepts.  50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps was
 to us 5
 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the cost of
 10mbps 5
 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the new technology.
 This is
 from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as
 well as
 technology advancement.

 I'd pose the same arguements

 Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500.   Paying 35x more for an AP is a
 tough
 call.

 Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP,
simply
 because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create
noise,
 before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from
 calling
 themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs.

 But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage
 line AP
 cost in order to make a big splash in the market.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net
 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


 Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen
 Moto
 give
 pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way
 off
 the
 mark.  I hope it's right for Moto sake :-)

 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks
 http://www.3dbnetworks.com
 dan...@3-db.net

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-
 boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Gino Villarini
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 Soon as in q1 or q2

 IIRC
 $350~ SM
 $3500~ AP

 Specs are in the website under 320 series

 Sent from my Motorola Startac...


 On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Tom DeReggi
 wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net
 wrote:

 moto

 Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean
 they are
 talking about comming out with?

 In WISP time, there is a big difference.

 Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at
 current
 Canopy level price points.
 But that is an if.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:05 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


 Less?

 Moto is comming out with a 16e system with 4.5 bits per hz using
 mimo

 Sent from my Motorola Startac...


 On Dec 29, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Patrick Leary
ple...@apertonet.com
 wrote:

 Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)?

 All .16e

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-30 Thread Bret Clark




I race Corvettes and would take one any day over a Porsche and while
the Porsche race drivers are pretty cool, I find most Porsche "off
track" owners to be rather snobbish...but I not sure what any of that
has to do with Wimax???

3-dB Networks wrote:

  Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh

http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.htm

Daniel White
3-dB Networks
http://www.3dbnetworks.com
dan...@3-db.net


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche...  in the 
right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the Porsche

is 35x more expensive.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Gino Villarini" g...@aeronetpr.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM
To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org
Cc: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

  
  
Tom

ROTFL

You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e

That's like comparing a Yugo  with a Porsche

Sent from my Motorola Startac...


On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, "Tom DeReggi" wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net
wrote:



  I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is
here for
the long haul.
  
  
From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto
products

  
  on their way.

No problem with the $350 CPE level.

But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO.

The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is
not
that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, very
insignificant compared to the market value of the higher capacity.
Its all
opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more
antennas,
etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today than their
legacy
components were when they were designed).

I'd also argue that RF speed/price  is similar to Computer CPU speed/
price
concepts.  50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps was
to us 5
years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the cost of
10mbps 5
years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the new technology.
This is
from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as
well as
technology advancement.

I'd pose the same arguements

Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500.   Paying 35x more for an AP is a
tough
call.

Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP, simply
because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create noise,
before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from
calling
themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs.

But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage
line AP
cost in order to make a big splash in the market.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message -
From: "3-dB Networks" wi...@3-db.net
To: "'WISPA General List'" wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


  
  
Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen
Moto
give
pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way
off
the
mark.  I hope it's right for Moto sake :-)

Daniel White
3-dB Networks
http://www.3dbnetworks.com
dan...@3-db.net

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-
boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Gino Villarini
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

Soon as in q1 or q2

IIRC
$350~ SM
$3500~ AP

Specs are in the website under 320 series

Sent from my Motorola Startac...


On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, "Tom DeReggi"
wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net
wrote:



  
moto

  
  Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean
they are
talking about comming out with?

In WISP time, there is a big difference.

Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at
current
Canopy level price points.
But that is an if.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message -
From: "Gino Villarini" g...@aeronetpr.com
To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org
Cc: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:05 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


  
  
Less?

Moto is comming out with a 16e system with 4.5 bits per hz using
mimo

Sent from my Motorola Startac...


On Dec 29, 2009, at 4:45 PM, "

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-30 Thread Robert West
Maybe one can outrun 802.16e?

 

From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Bret Clark
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 10:31 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 

I race Corvettes and would take one any day over a Porsche and while the
Porsche race drivers are pretty cool, I find most Porsche off track owners
to be rather snobbish...but I not sure what any of that has to do with
Wimax???

3-dB Networks wrote: 

Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh
 
http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.htm
 
Daniel White
3-dB Networks
http://www.3dbnetworks.com
dan...@3-db.net
 
 
-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
 
I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche...  in the 
right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the Porsche
 
is 35x more expensive.
 
 
-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com
 
 
 
--
From: Gino Villarini  mailto:g...@aeronetpr.com g...@aeronetpr.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM
To: WISPA General List  mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org
Cc: WISPA General List  mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
 
  

Tom
 
ROTFL
 
You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e
 
That's like comparing a Yugo  with a Porsche
 
Sent from my Motorola Startac...
 
 
On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Tom DeReggi
mailto:wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net
wrote:
 


I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is
here for
the long haul.
  

From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto
products


on their way.
 
No problem with the $350 CPE level.
 
But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO.
 
The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is
not
that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, very
insignificant compared to the market value of the higher capacity.
Its all
opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more
antennas,
etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today than their
legacy
components were when they were designed).
 
I'd also argue that RF speed/price  is similar to Computer CPU speed/
price
concepts.  50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps was
to us 5
years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the cost of
10mbps 5
years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the new technology.
This is
from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as
well as
technology advancement.
 
I'd pose the same arguements
 
Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500.   Paying 35x more for an AP is a
tough
call.
 
Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP, simply
because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create noise,
before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from
calling
themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs.
 
But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage
line AP
cost in order to make a big splash in the market.
 
Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
 
 
- Original Message -
From: 3-dB Networks  mailto:wi...@3-db.net wi...@3-db.net
To: 'WISPA General List'  mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
 
 
  

Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen
Moto
give
pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way
off
the
mark.  I hope it's right for Moto sake :-)
 
Daniel White
3-dB Networks
http://www.3dbnetworks.com
dan...@3-db.net
 
-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-
boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Gino Villarini
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
 
Soon as in q1 or q2
 
IIRC
$350~ SM
$3500~ AP
 
Specs are in the website under 320 series
 
Sent from my Motorola Startac...
 
 
On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Tom DeReggi
 mailto:wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net
wrote:
 


moto


Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean
they are
talking about comming out with?
 
In WISP time, there is a big difference.
 
Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at
current
Canopy level price points.
But that is an if.
 
Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
 
 
- Original Message -
From: Gino Villarini  mailto:g...@aeronetpr.com g...@aeronetpr.com
To: WISPA General List  mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org
Cc: WISPA

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-30 Thread Gino Villarini
Its started comparing Motorola up coming Wimax 802.16e MiMO with
Ubiquity MIMO

 

Gino A. Villarini

g...@aeronetpr.com

Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.

787.273.4143



From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Bret Clark
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:31 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 

I race Corvettes and would take one any day over a Porsche and while the
Porsche race drivers are pretty cool, I find most Porsche off track
owners to be rather snobbish...but I not sure what any of that has to do
with Wimax???

3-dB Networks wrote: 

Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh
 
http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.htm
 
Daniel White
3-dB Networks
http://www.3dbnetworks.com
dan...@3-db.net
 
 
-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
 
I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche...  in the

right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the
Porsche
 
is 35x more expensive.
 
 
-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com
 
 
 
--
From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com mailto:g...@aeronetpr.com 
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
mailto:wireless@wispa.org 
Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
mailto:wireless@wispa.org 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
 
  

Tom
 
ROTFL
 
You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e
 
That's like comparing a Yugo  with a Porsche
 
Sent from my Motorola Startac...
 
 
On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Tom DeReggi
wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net mailto:wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net 
wrote:
 


I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a
company that is
here for
the long haul.
  

From that perspective, its always excitign to
learn about new Moto
products


on their way.
 
No problem with the $350 CPE level.
 
But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for
802.16e MIMO.
 
The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device
hardware is
not
that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should
say, very
insignificant compared to the market value of the higher
capacity.
Its all
opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor
power, more
antennas,
etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper
today than their
legacy
components were when they were designed).
 
I'd also argue that RF speed/price  is similar to
Computer CPU speed/
price
concepts.  50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what
10mbps was
to us 5
years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the
cost of
10mbps 5
years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the new
technology.
This is
from both the perspective of consumer's demand for
higher speeds, as
well as
technology advancement.
 
I'd pose the same arguements
 
Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500.   Paying 35x more for
an AP is a
tough
call.
 
Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher
cost AP, simply
because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to
create noise,
before they are needed, and discourages harry high
school kid from
calling
themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs.
 
But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current
Canopy Advantage
line AP
cost in order to make a big splash in the market.
 
Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
 
 
- Original Message -
From: 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net
mailto:wi...@3-db.net 
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
mailto:wireless@wispa.org 
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-30 Thread 3-dB Networks
Bret,

 

If you follow the thread, the corvette was the $89 Ubiquity AP and the
Porsche is the $3,500 WiMAX AP.  Someone else made the reference, not me.

 

Anyways, the argument is that for $89 your AP is more likely to break so to
speak, spend the extra money you get a higher quality product.  While I love
Corvettes myself, you can't argue that a Porsche is generally better
engineered.

 

Sorry that I wasn't clear

 

Daniel White

3-dB Networks

http://www.3dbnetworks.com

dan...@3-db.net

 

From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Bret Clark
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 8:31 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 

I race Corvettes and would take one any day over a Porsche and while the
Porsche race drivers are pretty cool, I find most Porsche off track owners
to be rather snobbish...but I not sure what any of that has to do with
Wimax???

3-dB Networks wrote: 

Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh
 
http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.htm
 
Daniel White
3-dB Networks
http://www.3dbnetworks.com
dan...@3-db.net
 
 
-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
 
I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche...  in the 
right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the Porsche
 
is 35x more expensive.
 
 
-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com
 
 
 
--
From: Gino Villarini  mailto:g...@aeronetpr.com g...@aeronetpr.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM
To: WISPA General List  mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org
Cc: WISPA General List  mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
 
  

Tom
 
ROTFL
 
You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e
 
That's like comparing a Yugo  with a Porsche
 
Sent from my Motorola Startac...
 
 
On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Tom DeReggi
mailto:wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net
wrote:
 


I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is
here for
the long haul.
  

From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto
products


on their way.
 
No problem with the $350 CPE level.
 
But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO.
 
The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is
not
that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, very
insignificant compared to the market value of the higher capacity.
Its all
opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more
antennas,
etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today than their
legacy
components were when they were designed).
 
I'd also argue that RF speed/price  is similar to Computer CPU speed/
price
concepts.  50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps was
to us 5
years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the cost of
10mbps 5
years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the new technology.
This is
from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as
well as
technology advancement.
 
I'd pose the same arguements
 
Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500.   Paying 35x more for an AP is a
tough
call.
 
Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP, simply
because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create noise,
before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from
calling
themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs.
 
But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage
line AP
cost in order to make a big splash in the market.
 
Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
 
 
- Original Message -
From: 3-dB Networks  mailto:wi...@3-db.net wi...@3-db.net
To: 'WISPA General List'  mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
 
 
  

Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen
Moto
give
pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way
off
the
mark.  I hope it's right for Moto sake :-)
 
Daniel White
3-dB Networks
http://www.3dbnetworks.com
dan...@3-db.net
 
-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-
boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Gino Villarini
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
 
Soon as in q1 or q2
 
IIRC
$350~ SM
$3500~ AP
 
Specs are in the website under 320 series
 
Sent from my Motorola Startac...
 
 
On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Tom DeReggi
 mailto:wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net
wrote:
 


moto


Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-30 Thread Patrick Leary
Personally, I prefer my 4-door Wrangler with my custom roof rack. I can
go anywhere, carry the kids and stuff, drop the top, pull my trailer
with bikes and camping gear AND carry my kayaks. Try that in a Porsche
or Corvette!  ...the wireless equivalent? Idunno...maybe an old Freewave
900 MHz hopper? 


Patrick Leary
Aperto Networks
813.426.4230 mobile

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Gino Villarini
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:25 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

Funny

But I would say Im very satisfied with my current BMW

Gino A. Villarini
g...@aeronetpr.com
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
787.273.4143

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of 3-dB Networks
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:04 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh

http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.htm

Daniel White
3-dB Networks
http://www.3dbnetworks.com
dan...@3-db.net


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche...  in the

right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the
Porsche

is 35x more expensive.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 Tom

 ROTFL

 You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e

 That's like comparing a Yugo  with a Porsche

 Sent from my Motorola Startac...


 On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net
 wrote:

 I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is 
 here for the long haul.
 From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto 
 products
 on their way.

 No problem with the $350 CPE level.

 But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO.

 The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is 
 not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, 
 very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher 
 capacity.
 Its all
 opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more 
 antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today 
 than their legacy components were when they were designed).

 I'd also argue that RF speed/price  is similar to Computer CPU speed/

 price concepts.  50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps 
 was to us 5 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the 
 cost of 10mbps 5 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the 
 new technology.
 This is
 from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as 
 well as technology advancement.

 I'd pose the same arguements

 Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500.   Paying 35x more for an AP is a
 tough
 call.

 Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP,
simply
 because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create
noise,
 before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from 
 calling themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs.

 But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage 
 line AP cost in order to make a big splash in the market.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net
 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


 Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen 
 Moto give pricing way before a product is actually set to release 
 and its way off the mark.  I hope it's right for Moto sake :-)

 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks
 http://www.3dbnetworks.com
 dan...@3-db.net

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- 
 boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 Soon as in q1 or q2

 IIRC
 $350~ SM
 $3500~ AP

 Specs are in the website under 320 series

 Sent from my Motorola Startac...


 On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Tom DeReggi
 wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net
 wrote:

 moto

 Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean

 they are talking about comming out with?

 In WISP time, there is a big difference.

 Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at 
 current Canopy level price points

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-30 Thread Matt Larsen - Lists
A Porsche Cayenne could probably handle it, plus do about 140mph.

I almost got a used one last spring, but my wife vetoed it.   Had a lot 
of fun on the take it home overnight test drive though.  :^)

I'm personally going to wait for the BWM X6s to start showing up on the 
used market.   At my current pace, I should be able to get a 2008 X6 in 
about, 2020 or so.

Matt Larsen
vistabeam.com


Patrick Leary wrote:
 Personally, I prefer my 4-door Wrangler with my custom roof rack. I can
 go anywhere, carry the kids and stuff, drop the top, pull my trailer
 with bikes and camping gear AND carry my kayaks. Try that in a Porsche
 or Corvette!  ...the wireless equivalent? Idunno...maybe an old Freewave
 900 MHz hopper? 


 Patrick Leary
 Aperto Networks
 813.426.4230 mobile

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Gino Villarini
 Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:25 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 Funny

 But I would say Im very satisfied with my current BMW

 Gino A. Villarini
 g...@aeronetpr.com
 Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
 787.273.4143

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of 3-dB Networks
 Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:04 AM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh

 http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.htm

 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks
 http://www.3dbnetworks.com
 dan...@3-db.net


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Mike Hammett
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche...  in the

 right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the
 Porsche

 is 35x more expensive.


 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com



 --
 From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

   
 Tom

 ROTFL

 You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e

 That's like comparing a Yugo  with a Porsche

 Sent from my Motorola Startac...


 On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net
 wrote:

 
 I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is 
 here for the long haul.
   
 From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto 
 products
 
 on their way.

 No problem with the $350 CPE level.

 But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO.

 The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is 
 not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, 
 very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher 
 capacity.
 Its all
 opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more 
 antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today 
 than their legacy components were when they were designed).

 I'd also argue that RF speed/price  is similar to Computer CPU speed/
   

   
 price concepts.  50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps 
 was to us 5 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the 
 cost of 10mbps 5 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the 
 new technology.
 This is
 from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as 
 well as technology advancement.

 I'd pose the same arguements

 Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500.   Paying 35x more for an AP is a
 tough
 call.

 Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP,
   
 simply
   
 because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create
   
 noise,
   
 before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from 
 calling themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs.

 But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage 
 line AP cost in order to make a big splash in the market.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net
 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


   
 Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen 
 Moto give pricing way before a product is actually set to release 
 and its way off the mark.  I hope it's right for Moto sake :-)

 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks
 http://www.3dbnetworks.com
 dan...@3-db.net

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- 
 boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-30 Thread Ryan Spott
Unimog.

Forget speed, just get there. :)

ryan

On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 1:41 PM, Matt Larsen - Lists
li...@manageisp.com wrote:
 A Porsche Cayenne could probably handle it, plus do about 140mph.

 I almost got a used one last spring, but my wife vetoed it.   Had a lot
 of fun on the take it home overnight test drive though.  :^)

 I'm personally going to wait for the BWM X6s to start showing up on the
 used market.   At my current pace, I should be able to get a 2008 X6 in
 about, 2020 or so.

 Matt Larsen
 vistabeam.com


 Patrick Leary wrote:
 Personally, I prefer my 4-door Wrangler with my custom roof rack. I can
 go anywhere, carry the kids and stuff, drop the top, pull my trailer
 with bikes and camping gear AND carry my kayaks. Try that in a Porsche
 or Corvette!  ...the wireless equivalent? Idunno...maybe an old Freewave
 900 MHz hopper?


 Patrick Leary
 Aperto Networks
 813.426.4230 mobile

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Gino Villarini
 Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:25 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 Funny

 But I would say Im very satisfied with my current BMW

 Gino A. Villarini
 g...@aeronetpr.com
 Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
 787.273.4143

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of 3-dB Networks
 Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:04 AM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh

 http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.htm

 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks
 http://www.3dbnetworks.com
 dan...@3-db.net


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Mike Hammett
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche...  in the

 right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the
 Porsche

 is 35x more expensive.


 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com



 --
 From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


 Tom

 ROTFL

 You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e

 That's like comparing a Yugo  with a Porsche

 Sent from my Motorola Startac...


 On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net
 wrote:


 I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is
 here for the long haul.

 From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto
 products

 on their way.

 No problem with the $350 CPE level.

 But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO.

 The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is
 not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say,
 very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher
 capacity.
 Its all
 opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more
 antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today
 than their legacy components were when they were designed).

 I'd also argue that RF speed/price  is similar to Computer CPU speed/



 price concepts.  50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps
 was to us 5 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the
 cost of 10mbps 5 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the
 new technology.
 This is
 from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as
 well as technology advancement.

 I'd pose the same arguements

 Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500.   Paying 35x more for an AP is a
 tough
 call.

 Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP,

 simply

 because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create

 noise,

 before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from
 calling themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs.

 But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage
 line AP cost in order to make a big splash in the market.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net
 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear



 Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen
 Moto give pricing way before a product is actually set to release
 and its way off the mark.  I hope it's right for Moto sake :-)

 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks
 http://www.3dbnetworks.com
 dan...@3-db.net

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-
 boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-30 Thread Patrick Leary
Good point Matt, except for dropping the topand 3x the money! But as
a true ragtop lover (I've had 5 over the years), it is hard for me to
not have one. Gotta get my vitamin D somehow.


Patrick Leary
Aperto Networks
813.426.4230 mobile

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Matt Larsen - Lists
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 1:42 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

A Porsche Cayenne could probably handle it, plus do about 140mph.

I almost got a used one last spring, but my wife vetoed it.   Had a lot 
of fun on the take it home overnight test drive though.  :^)

I'm personally going to wait for the BWM X6s to start showing up on the 
used market.   At my current pace, I should be able to get a 2008 X6 in 
about, 2020 or so.

Matt Larsen
vistabeam.com


Patrick Leary wrote:
 Personally, I prefer my 4-door Wrangler with my custom roof rack. I 
 can go anywhere, carry the kids and stuff, drop the top, pull my 
 trailer with bikes and camping gear AND carry my kayaks. Try that in a

 Porsche or Corvette!  ...the wireless equivalent? Idunno...maybe an 
 old Freewave 900 MHz hopper?


 Patrick Leary
 Aperto Networks
 813.426.4230 mobile

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] 
 On Behalf Of Gino Villarini
 Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:25 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 Funny

 But I would say Im very satisfied with my current BMW

 Gino A. Villarini
 g...@aeronetpr.com
 Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
 787.273.4143

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] 
 On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks
 Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:04 AM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh

 http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.ht
 m

 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks
 http://www.3dbnetworks.com
 dan...@3-db.net


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] 
 On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche...  in 
 the

 right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the 
 Porsche

 is 35x more expensive.


 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com



 --
 From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

   
 Tom

 ROTFL

 You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e

 That's like comparing a Yugo  with a Porsche

 Sent from my Motorola Startac...


 On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Tom DeReggi 
 wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net
 wrote:

 
 I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is 
 here for the long haul.
   
 From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto 
 products
 
 on their way.

 No problem with the $350 CPE level.

 But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO.

 The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is

 not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, 
 very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher 
 capacity.
 Its all
 opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more 
 antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today 
 than their legacy components were when they were designed).

 I'd also argue that RF speed/price  is similar to Computer CPU 
 speed/
   

   
 price concepts.  50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps

 was to us 5 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the 
 cost of 10mbps 5 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the 
 new technology.
 This is
 from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as

 well as technology advancement.

 I'd pose the same arguements

 Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500.   Paying 35x more for an AP is a
 tough
 call.

 Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP,
   
 simply
   
 because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create
   
 noise,
   
 before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from 
 calling themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs.

 But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage 
 line AP cost in order to make a big splash in the market.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net
 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM
 Subject

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-30 Thread Gino Villarini
For that i have my Nissan Pathfinder

Sent from my Motorola Startac...


On Dec 30, 2009, at 5:35 PM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com  
wrote:

 Personally, I prefer my 4-door Wrangler with my custom roof rack. I  
 can
 go anywhere, carry the kids and stuff, drop the top, pull my trailer
 with bikes and camping gear AND carry my kayaks. Try that in a Porsche
 or Corvette!  ...the wireless equivalent? Idunno...maybe an old  
 Freewave
 900 MHz hopper?


 Patrick Leary
 Aperto Networks
 813.426.4230 mobile

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]  
 On
 Behalf Of Gino Villarini
 Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:25 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 Funny

 But I would say Im very satisfied with my current BMW

 Gino A. Villarini
 g...@aeronetpr.com
 Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
 787.273.4143

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]  
 On
 Behalf Of 3-dB Networks
 Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:04 AM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh

 http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/ 
 index.htm

 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks
 http://www.3dbnetworks.com
 dan...@3-db.net


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]  
 On
 Behalf Of Mike Hammett
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche...  in  
 the

 right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the
 Porsche

 is 35x more expensive.


 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com



 --
 From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 Tom

 ROTFL

 You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e

 That's like comparing a Yugo  with a Porsche

 Sent from my Motorola Startac...


 On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Tom DeReggi  
 wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net
 wrote:

 I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is
 here for the long haul.
 From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto
 products
 on their way.

 No problem with the $350 CPE level.

 But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO.

 The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is
 not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say,
 very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher
 capacity.
 Its all
 opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more
 antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today
 than their legacy components were when they were designed).

 I'd also argue that RF speed/price  is similar to Computer CPU  
 speed/

 price concepts.  50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps
 was to us 5 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the
 cost of 10mbps 5 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the
 new technology.
 This is
 from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as
 well as technology advancement.

 I'd pose the same arguements

 Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500.   Paying 35x more for an AP is a
 tough
 call.

 Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP,
 simply
 because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create
 noise,
 before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from
 calling themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs.

 But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage
 line AP cost in order to make a big splash in the market.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net
 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


 Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen
 Moto give pricing way before a product is actually set to release
 and its way off the mark.  I hope it's right for Moto sake :-)

 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks
 http://www.3dbnetworks.com
 dan...@3-db.net

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-
 boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 Soon as in q1 or q2

 IIRC
 $350~ SM
 $3500~ AP

 Specs are in the website under 320 series

 Sent from my Motorola Startac...


 On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Tom DeReggi
 wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net
 wrote:

 moto

 Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-30 Thread Jerry Richardson
Are we still talking about WiMax?

Me thinks this thread hath strayed.

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf 
Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 1:47 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

Good point Matt, except for dropping the topand 3x the money! But as
a true ragtop lover (I've had 5 over the years), it is hard for me to
not have one. Gotta get my vitamin D somehow.


Patrick Leary
Aperto Networks
813.426.4230 mobile

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Matt Larsen - Lists
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 1:42 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

A Porsche Cayenne could probably handle it, plus do about 140mph.

I almost got a used one last spring, but my wife vetoed it.   Had a lot
of fun on the take it home overnight test drive though.  :^)

I'm personally going to wait for the BWM X6s to start showing up on the
used market.   At my current pace, I should be able to get a 2008 X6 in
about, 2020 or so.

Matt Larsen
vistabeam.com


Patrick Leary wrote:
 Personally, I prefer my 4-door Wrangler with my custom roof rack. I
 can go anywhere, carry the kids and stuff, drop the top, pull my
 trailer with bikes and camping gear AND carry my kayaks. Try that in a

 Porsche or Corvette!  ...the wireless equivalent? Idunno...maybe an
 old Freewave 900 MHz hopper?


 Patrick Leary
 Aperto Networks
 813.426.4230 mobile

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
 On Behalf Of Gino Villarini
 Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:25 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 Funny

 But I would say Im very satisfied with my current BMW

 Gino A. Villarini
 g...@aeronetpr.com
 Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
 787.273.4143

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
 On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks
 Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:04 AM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh

 http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.ht
 m

 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks
 http://www.3dbnetworks.com
 dan...@3-db.net


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
 On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche...  in
 the

 right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the
 Porsche

 is 35x more expensive.


 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com



 --
 From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


 Tom

 ROTFL

 You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e

 That's like comparing a Yugo  with a Porsche

 Sent from my Motorola Startac...


 On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Tom DeReggi
 wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net
 wrote:


 I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is
 here for the long haul.

 From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto
 products

 on their way.

 No problem with the $350 CPE level.

 But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO.

 The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is

 not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say,
 very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher
 capacity.
 Its all
 opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more
 antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today
 than their legacy components were when they were designed).

 I'd also argue that RF speed/price  is similar to Computer CPU
 speed/



 price concepts.  50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps

 was to us 5 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the
 cost of 10mbps 5 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the
 new technology.
 This is
 from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as

 well as technology advancement.

 I'd pose the same arguements

 Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500.   Paying 35x more for an AP is a
 tough
 call.

 Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP,

 simply

 because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create

 noise,

 before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from
 calling themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs.

 But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage
 line AP cost in order to make a big splash in the market.

 Tom DeReggi

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-30 Thread Brad Belton
I was close to buying a GL550 the other day.  Dave Ramsey drives one, so it
must be fiscally ok, right?  

Brad

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Matt Larsen - Lists
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 3:42 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

A Porsche Cayenne could probably handle it, plus do about 140mph.

I almost got a used one last spring, but my wife vetoed it.   Had a lot 
of fun on the take it home overnight test drive though.  :^)

I'm personally going to wait for the BWM X6s to start showing up on the 
used market.   At my current pace, I should be able to get a 2008 X6 in 
about, 2020 or so.

Matt Larsen
vistabeam.com


Patrick Leary wrote:
 Personally, I prefer my 4-door Wrangler with my custom roof rack. I can
 go anywhere, carry the kids and stuff, drop the top, pull my trailer
 with bikes and camping gear AND carry my kayaks. Try that in a Porsche
 or Corvette!  ...the wireless equivalent? Idunno...maybe an old Freewave
 900 MHz hopper? 


 Patrick Leary
 Aperto Networks
 813.426.4230 mobile

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Gino Villarini
 Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:25 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 Funny

 But I would say Im very satisfied with my current BMW

 Gino A. Villarini
 g...@aeronetpr.com
 Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
 787.273.4143

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of 3-dB Networks
 Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:04 AM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh

 http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.htm

 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks
 http://www.3dbnetworks.com
 dan...@3-db.net


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Mike Hammett
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche...  in the

 right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the
 Porsche

 is 35x more expensive.


 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com



 --
 From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

   
 Tom

 ROTFL

 You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e

 That's like comparing a Yugo  with a Porsche

 Sent from my Motorola Startac...


 On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net
 wrote:

 
 I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is 
 here for the long haul.
   
 From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto 
 products
 
 on their way.

 No problem with the $350 CPE level.

 But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO.

 The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is 
 not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, 
 very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher 
 capacity.
 Its all
 opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more 
 antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today 
 than their legacy components were when they were designed).

 I'd also argue that RF speed/price  is similar to Computer CPU speed/
   

   
 price concepts.  50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps 
 was to us 5 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the 
 cost of 10mbps 5 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the 
 new technology.
 This is
 from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as 
 well as technology advancement.

 I'd pose the same arguements

 Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500.   Paying 35x more for an AP is a
 tough
 call.

 Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP,
   
 simply
   
 because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create
   
 noise,
   
 before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from 
 calling themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs.

 But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage 
 line AP cost in order to make a big splash in the market.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net
 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


   
 Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen 
 Moto give pricing way before a product

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-30 Thread Patrick Leary
Hey, we are all winding down from a long year... 


Patrick Leary
Aperto Networks
813.426.4230 mobile

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Jerry Richardson
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 1:48 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

Are we still talking about WiMax?

Me thinks this thread hath strayed.

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 1:47 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

Good point Matt, except for dropping the topand 3x the money! But as
a true ragtop lover (I've had 5 over the years), it is hard for me to
not have one. Gotta get my vitamin D somehow.


Patrick Leary
Aperto Networks
813.426.4230 mobile

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Matt Larsen - Lists
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 1:42 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

A Porsche Cayenne could probably handle it, plus do about 140mph.

I almost got a used one last spring, but my wife vetoed it.   Had a lot
of fun on the take it home overnight test drive though.  :^)

I'm personally going to wait for the BWM X6s to start showing up on the
used market.   At my current pace, I should be able to get a 2008 X6 in
about, 2020 or so.

Matt Larsen
vistabeam.com


Patrick Leary wrote:
 Personally, I prefer my 4-door Wrangler with my custom roof rack. I 
 can go anywhere, carry the kids and stuff, drop the top, pull my 
 trailer with bikes and camping gear AND carry my kayaks. Try that in a

 Porsche or Corvette!  ...the wireless equivalent? Idunno...maybe an 
 old Freewave 900 MHz hopper?


 Patrick Leary
 Aperto Networks
 813.426.4230 mobile

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
 On Behalf Of Gino Villarini
 Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:25 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 Funny

 But I would say Im very satisfied with my current BMW

 Gino A. Villarini
 g...@aeronetpr.com
 Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
 787.273.4143

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
 On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks
 Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:04 AM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh

 http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.ht
 m

 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks
 http://www.3dbnetworks.com
 dan...@3-db.net


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
 On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche...  in 
 the

 right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the 
 Porsche

 is 35x more expensive.


 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com



 --
 From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


 Tom

 ROTFL

 You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e

 That's like comparing a Yugo  with a Porsche

 Sent from my Motorola Startac...


 On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Tom DeReggi
 wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net
 wrote:


 I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is 
 here for the long haul.

 From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto 
 products

 on their way.

 No problem with the $350 CPE level.

 But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO.

 The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is

 not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, 
 very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher 
 capacity.
 Its all
 opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more 
 antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today 
 than their legacy components were when they were designed).

 I'd also argue that RF speed/price  is similar to Computer CPU 
 speed/



 price concepts.  50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps

 was to us 5 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the 
 cost of 10mbps 5 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the 
 new technology.
 This is
 from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as

 well as technology advancement.

 I'd pose the same arguements

 Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500.   Paying 35x more for an AP is a
 tough
 call.

 Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP,

 simply

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-30 Thread Terry Hickey
funny I figured most people on this list would prefer American Made 
 me I'll take my Ford Expedition and my Harley for fun

- Original Message - 
From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


 For that i have my Nissan Pathfinder

 Sent from my Motorola Startac...


 On Dec 30, 2009, at 5:35 PM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com
 wrote:

 Personally, I prefer my 4-door Wrangler with my custom roof rack. I
 can
 go anywhere, carry the kids and stuff, drop the top, pull my trailer
 with bikes and camping gear AND carry my kayaks. Try that in a Porsche
 or Corvette!  ...the wireless equivalent? Idunno...maybe an old
 Freewave
 900 MHz hopper?


 Patrick Leary
 Aperto Networks
 813.426.4230 mobile

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
 On
 Behalf Of Gino Villarini
 Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:25 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 Funny

 But I would say Im very satisfied with my current BMW

 Gino A. Villarini
 g...@aeronetpr.com
 Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
 787.273.4143

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
 On
 Behalf Of 3-dB Networks
 Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:04 AM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh

 http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/
 index.htm

 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks
 http://www.3dbnetworks.com
 dan...@3-db.net


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
 On
 Behalf Of Mike Hammett
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche...  in
 the

 right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the
 Porsche

 is 35x more expensive.


 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com



 --
 From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 Tom

 ROTFL

 You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e

 That's like comparing a Yugo  with a Porsche

 Sent from my Motorola Startac...


 On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Tom DeReggi
 wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net
 wrote:

 I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is
 here for the long haul.
 From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto
 products
 on their way.

 No problem with the $350 CPE level.

 But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO.

 The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is
 not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say,
 very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher
 capacity.
 Its all
 opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more
 antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today
 than their legacy components were when they were designed).

 I'd also argue that RF speed/price  is similar to Computer CPU
 speed/

 price concepts.  50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps
 was to us 5 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the
 cost of 10mbps 5 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the
 new technology.
 This is
 from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as
 well as technology advancement.

 I'd pose the same arguements

 Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500.   Paying 35x more for an AP is a
 tough
 call.

 Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP,
 simply
 because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create
 noise,
 before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from
 calling themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs.

 But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage
 line AP cost in order to make a big splash in the market.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net
 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


 Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen
 Moto give pricing way before a product is actually set to release
 and its way off the mark.  I hope it's right for Moto sake :-)

 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks
 http://www.3dbnetworks.com
 dan...@3-db.net

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-
 boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini
 Sent: Tuesday

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-30 Thread Jerry Richardson
no worries.

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf 
Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 1:57 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

Hey, we are all winding down from a long year...


Patrick Leary
Aperto Networks
813.426.4230 mobile

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Jerry Richardson
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 1:48 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

Are we still talking about WiMax?

Me thinks this thread hath strayed.

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 1:47 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

Good point Matt, except for dropping the topand 3x the money! But as
a true ragtop lover (I've had 5 over the years), it is hard for me to
not have one. Gotta get my vitamin D somehow.


Patrick Leary
Aperto Networks
813.426.4230 mobile

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Matt Larsen - Lists
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 1:42 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

A Porsche Cayenne could probably handle it, plus do about 140mph.

I almost got a used one last spring, but my wife vetoed it.   Had a lot
of fun on the take it home overnight test drive though.  :^)

I'm personally going to wait for the BWM X6s to start showing up on the
used market.   At my current pace, I should be able to get a 2008 X6 in
about, 2020 or so.

Matt Larsen
vistabeam.com


Patrick Leary wrote:
 Personally, I prefer my 4-door Wrangler with my custom roof rack. I
 can go anywhere, carry the kids and stuff, drop the top, pull my
 trailer with bikes and camping gear AND carry my kayaks. Try that in a

 Porsche or Corvette!  ...the wireless equivalent? Idunno...maybe an
 old Freewave 900 MHz hopper?


 Patrick Leary
 Aperto Networks
 813.426.4230 mobile

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
 On Behalf Of Gino Villarini
 Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:25 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 Funny

 But I would say Im very satisfied with my current BMW

 Gino A. Villarini
 g...@aeronetpr.com
 Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
 787.273.4143

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
 On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks
 Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:04 AM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh

 http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.ht
 m

 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks
 http://www.3dbnetworks.com
 dan...@3-db.net


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
 On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche...  in
 the

 right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the
 Porsche

 is 35x more expensive.


 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com



 --
 From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


 Tom

 ROTFL

 You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e

 That's like comparing a Yugo  with a Porsche

 Sent from my Motorola Startac...


 On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Tom DeReggi
 wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net
 wrote:


 I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is
 here for the long haul.

 From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto
 products

 on their way.

 No problem with the $350 CPE level.

 But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO.

 The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is

 not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say,
 very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher
 capacity.
 Its all
 opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more
 antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today
 than their legacy components were when they were designed).

 I'd also argue that RF speed/price  is similar to Computer CPU
 speed/



 price concepts.  50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps

 was to us 5 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the
 cost of 10mbps 5 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the
 new technology.
 This is
 from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as

 well

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-30 Thread Philip Dorr
the equivalent would a x86 based mikrotik with 9 mini-pci slots (3
each for 2.4, 3.65, and 5.8), 4 gigbit wired interfaces, a gbic port,
and running the dude

On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 3:29 PM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com wrote:
 Personally, I prefer my 4-door Wrangler with my custom roof rack. I can
 go anywhere, carry the kids and stuff, drop the top, pull my trailer
 with bikes and camping gear AND carry my kayaks. Try that in a Porsche
 or Corvette!  ...the wireless equivalent? Idunno...maybe an old Freewave
 900 MHz hopper?


 Patrick Leary
 Aperto Networks
 813.426.4230 mobile

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Gino Villarini
 Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:25 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 Funny

 But I would say Im very satisfied with my current BMW

 Gino A. Villarini
 g...@aeronetpr.com
 Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
 787.273.4143

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of 3-dB Networks
 Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:04 AM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh

 http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.htm

 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks
 http://www.3dbnetworks.com
 dan...@3-db.net


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Mike Hammett
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche...  in the

 right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the
 Porsche

 is 35x more expensive.


 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com



 --
 From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 Tom

 ROTFL

 You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e

 That's like comparing a Yugo  with a Porsche

 Sent from my Motorola Startac...


 On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net
 wrote:

 I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is
 here for the long haul.
 From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto
 products
 on their way.

 No problem with the $350 CPE level.

 But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO.

 The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is
 not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say,
 very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher
 capacity.
 Its all
 opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more
 antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today
 than their legacy components were when they were designed).

 I'd also argue that RF speed/price  is similar to Computer CPU speed/

 price concepts.  50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps
 was to us 5 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the
 cost of 10mbps 5 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the
 new technology.
 This is
 from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as
 well as technology advancement.

 I'd pose the same arguements

 Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500.   Paying 35x more for an AP is a
 tough
 call.

 Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP,
 simply
 because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create
 noise,
 before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from
 calling themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs.

 But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage
 line AP cost in order to make a big splash in the market.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net
 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


 Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen
 Moto give pricing way before a product is actually set to release
 and its way off the mark.  I hope it's right for Moto sake :-)

 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks
 http://www.3dbnetworks.com
 dan...@3-db.net

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-
 boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 Soon as in q1 or q2

 IIRC
 $350~ SM
 $3500~ AP

 Specs are in the website under 320 series

 Sent from my Motorola Startac...


 On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Tom DeReggi
 wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net
 wrote:

 moto

 Did

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-30 Thread Charles Wu
If not... then I don't think a WISP (as we probably define it) is ever
really going to be profitable with it. 

Off the top of my head, I know of 5 WISPs that are still deploy pre-WiMAX 
systems in the 2.5 GHz band and are doing quite nicely (and they aren't 
Clearwire / Digital Bridge type businesses where they're losing a ton of money)

The average size of these guys is about 7,000 wireless customers in their 
respective markets

In addition, when you dive into their financials, while their up-front CAPEX is 
significantly higher (due to the overbuild model of most 2.5 GHz systems) -- 
their operational and maintenance costs are significantly lower due to the fact 
that

1. They're not constantly dealing with interference and all the other gotchas 
that occur with Part 15
2. Many of them are able to utilize self-installs due to drastically increased 
power levels

But what about Motorola's new product?  Remember it's a fixed 802.16e, so
you don't get the benefits of mobility, no indoor CPE's are planned as far
as I know, but it is supposed to pay off in NLOS situations (which is
anecdotal until we can get gear on a tower and test).

There's actually 2 variants of this -- a fixed 802.16e that operates in 3.65, 
and their mobile product that operates in 2.5/2.3

-Charles



-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Blake Covarrubias
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:56 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 I'd say the question boils down to who's going to foot the bill for the
deployment -- you or the government =)


With or without government stimulus I'm curious of the lists' general
consensus on whether or not WiMAX is worthwhile investment in this 'war' of
LTE vs WiMAX. Having Uncle Sam foot the bill on a deployment definitely
lowers / removes the financial barrier, but doesn't really matter if
deploying WiMAX is a foolish endeavor from the get-go due to lack of
customer demand or vendors ceasing development.

I believe WiMAX has an opportunity to be commercially viable at least for a
couple of years, and I don't see any reason to not take advantage of that
fact. But, what do I know.

Consider this a question solely for the sake of debate.

--
Blake Covarrubias




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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-30 Thread Charles Wu
I find these comparisons of products like Ubiquiti / Mikrotik vs. Motorola / 
WiMAX products to be somewhat unrealistic -- it seems to me that it's like 
comparing something that's hypothetical and looks good on paper and hoping 
that it will actually work

Here's my question; sure, on paper, the new Ubiquiti WHATEVER will give me a 
Gazillion Mbps with Beamforming and everything for $10 -- but has anyone 
actually made this stuff work and scaled it into a profitable business?

Many of the WISPs that I've talked to who gone down this path have had to 
upgrade / replace / retool their networks due to the fact that these systems 
don't scale

The one WISP that I know using Ubiquiti / Mikrotik with several thousand 
customers is only using them as endpoints on a Bel-Air Network Mesh 
infrastructure that they spent almost $1 million building out

It reminds me of the Asterisk vs. Broadsoft / Metaswitch VoIP debates from a 
couple of years back -- sure, Asterisk was free while a Broadsoft platform 
had an entry cost of $250k, but I know of tons of Broadsoft providers who 
support tens of thousands of customers for hosted PBX, and the only guy I know 
doing it on Asterisk ended up spending over $500k hiring a custom programming 
team in Russia to rebuild the system for him from scratch (he was joking to me 
that in hindsight, it would've been cheaper and a lot easier to just buy a 
Broadsoft)

I would like to be proven wrong here...so shoot =)

-Charles




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-30 Thread Ralph
We have successfuly used ubiquiti nano and power stations as injection  
radios for numerous tripod and cisco mesh systems. No problems.  Of  
course I have used canopy for it too- no real difference in the end  
performance.

Would not use Mikrotik for any RF due to our desire to stay legal.

On Dec 30, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Charles Wu c...@cticonnect.com wrote:

 I find these comparisons of products like Ubiquiti / Mikrotik vs.  
 Motorola / WiMAX products to be somewhat unrealistic -- it seems to  
 me that it's like comparing something that's hypothetical and looks  
 good on paper and hoping that it will actually work

 Here's my question; sure, on paper, the new Ubiquiti WHATEVER will  
 give me a Gazillion Mbps with Beamforming and everything for $10 --  
 but has anyone actually made this stuff work and scaled it into a  
 profitable business?

 Many of the WISPs that I've talked to who gone down this path have  
 had to upgrade / replace / retool their networks due to the fact  
 that these systems don't scale

 The one WISP that I know using Ubiquiti / Mikrotik with several  
 thousand customers is only using them as endpoints on a Bel-Air  
 Network Mesh infrastructure that they spent almost $1 million  
 building out

 It reminds me of the Asterisk vs. Broadsoft / Metaswitch VoIP  
 debates from a couple of years back -- sure, Asterisk was free  
 while a Broadsoft platform had an entry cost of $250k, but I know of  
 tons of Broadsoft providers who support tens of thousands of  
 customers for hosted PBX, and the only guy I know doing it on  
 Asterisk ended up spending over $500k hiring a custom programming  
 team in Russia to rebuild the system for him from scratch (he was  
 joking to me that in hindsight, it would've been cheaper and a lot  
 easier to just buy a Broadsoft)

 I would like to be proven wrong here...so shoot =)

 -Charles



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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-30 Thread eje
You can use MikroTik and be legal. 

Anyone say any different either don't understand the rules or checked the 
approved certs or is just spreading FUD. 

/Eje
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-Original Message-
From: Ralph ralphli...@bsrg.org
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:05:50 
To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org
Cc: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

We have successfuly used ubiquiti nano and power stations as injection  
radios for numerous tripod and cisco mesh systems. No problems.  Of  
course I have used canopy for it too- no real difference in the end  
performance.

Would not use Mikrotik for any RF due to our desire to stay legal.

On Dec 30, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Charles Wu c...@cticonnect.com wrote:

 I find these comparisons of products like Ubiquiti / Mikrotik vs.  
 Motorola / WiMAX products to be somewhat unrealistic -- it seems to  
 me that it's like comparing something that's hypothetical and looks  
 good on paper and hoping that it will actually work

 Here's my question; sure, on paper, the new Ubiquiti WHATEVER will  
 give me a Gazillion Mbps with Beamforming and everything for $10 --  
 but has anyone actually made this stuff work and scaled it into a  
 profitable business?

 Many of the WISPs that I've talked to who gone down this path have  
 had to upgrade / replace / retool their networks due to the fact  
 that these systems don't scale

 The one WISP that I know using Ubiquiti / Mikrotik with several  
 thousand customers is only using them as endpoints on a Bel-Air  
 Network Mesh infrastructure that they spent almost $1 million  
 building out

 It reminds me of the Asterisk vs. Broadsoft / Metaswitch VoIP  
 debates from a couple of years back -- sure, Asterisk was free  
 while a Broadsoft platform had an entry cost of $250k, but I know of  
 tons of Broadsoft providers who support tens of thousands of  
 customers for hosted PBX, and the only guy I know doing it on  
 Asterisk ended up spending over $500k hiring a custom programming  
 team in Russia to rebuild the system for him from scratch (he was  
 joking to me that in hindsight, it would've been cheaper and a lot  
 easier to just buy a Broadsoft)

 I would like to be proven wrong here...so shoot =)

 -Charles



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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-30 Thread Ralph
Go ahead and live the dream then, but please don't homebuild your own  
gear and deploy it in any of my markets. We prefer certified products.

On Dec 30, 2009, at 8:10 PM, e...@wisp-router.com wrote:

 You can use MikroTik and be legal.

 Anyone say any different either don't understand the rules or  
 checked the approved certs or is just spreading FUD.

 /Eje
 Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

 -Original Message-
 From: Ralph ralphli...@bsrg.org
 Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:05:50
 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org
 Cc: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 We have successfuly used ubiquiti nano and power stations as injection
 radios for numerous tripod and cisco mesh systems. No problems.  Of
 course I have used canopy for it too- no real difference in the end
 performance.

 Would not use Mikrotik for any RF due to our desire to stay legal.

 On Dec 30, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Charles Wu c...@cticonnect.com wrote:

 I find these comparisons of products like Ubiquiti / Mikrotik vs.
 Motorola / WiMAX products to be somewhat unrealistic -- it seems to
 me that it's like comparing something that's hypothetical and looks
 good on paper and hoping that it will actually work

 Here's my question; sure, on paper, the new Ubiquiti WHATEVER will
 give me a Gazillion Mbps with Beamforming and everything for $10 --
 but has anyone actually made this stuff work and scaled it into a
 profitable business?

 Many of the WISPs that I've talked to who gone down this path have
 had to upgrade / replace / retool their networks due to the fact
 that these systems don't scale

 The one WISP that I know using Ubiquiti / Mikrotik with several
 thousand customers is only using them as endpoints on a Bel-Air
 Network Mesh infrastructure that they spent almost $1 million
 building out

 It reminds me of the Asterisk vs. Broadsoft / Metaswitch VoIP
 debates from a couple of years back -- sure, Asterisk was free
 while a Broadsoft platform had an entry cost of $250k, but I know of
 tons of Broadsoft providers who support tens of thousands of
 customers for hosted PBX, and the only guy I know doing it on
 Asterisk ended up spending over $500k hiring a custom programming
 team in Russia to rebuild the system for him from scratch (he was
 joking to me that in hindsight, it would've been cheaper and a lot
 easier to just buy a Broadsoft)

 I would like to be proven wrong here...so shoot =)

 -Charles



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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-30 Thread D. Ryan Spott
Hi RALPH!

ryan
On Dec 30, 2009, at 5:14 PM, Ralph wrote:

 Go ahead and live the dream then, but please don't homebuild your own
 gear and deploy it in any of my markets. We prefer certified products.

 On Dec 30, 2009, at 8:10 PM, e...@wisp-router.com wrote:

 You can use MikroTik and be legal.

 Anyone say any different either don't understand the rules or
 checked the approved certs or is just spreading FUD.

 /Eje
 Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

 -Original Message-
 From: Ralph ralphli...@bsrg.org
 Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:05:50
 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org
 Cc: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 We have successfuly used ubiquiti nano and power stations as  
 injection
 radios for numerous tripod and cisco mesh systems. No problems.  Of
 course I have used canopy for it too- no real difference in the end
 performance.

 Would not use Mikrotik for any RF due to our desire to stay legal.

 On Dec 30, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Charles Wu c...@cticonnect.com wrote:

 I find these comparisons of products like Ubiquiti / Mikrotik vs.
 Motorola / WiMAX products to be somewhat unrealistic -- it seems to
 me that it's like comparing something that's hypothetical and looks
 good on paper and hoping that it will actually work

 Here's my question; sure, on paper, the new Ubiquiti WHATEVER will
 give me a Gazillion Mbps with Beamforming and everything for $10 --
 but has anyone actually made this stuff work and scaled it into a
 profitable business?

 Many of the WISPs that I've talked to who gone down this path have
 had to upgrade / replace / retool their networks due to the fact
 that these systems don't scale

 The one WISP that I know using Ubiquiti / Mikrotik with several
 thousand customers is only using them as endpoints on a Bel-Air
 Network Mesh infrastructure that they spent almost $1 million
 building out

 It reminds me of the Asterisk vs. Broadsoft / Metaswitch VoIP
 debates from a couple of years back -- sure, Asterisk was free
 while a Broadsoft platform had an entry cost of $250k, but I know of
 tons of Broadsoft providers who support tens of thousands of
 customers for hosted PBX, and the only guy I know doing it on
 Asterisk ended up spending over $500k hiring a custom programming
 team in Russia to rebuild the system for him from scratch (he was
 joking to me that in hindsight, it would've been cheaper and a lot
 easier to just buy a Broadsoft)

 I would like to be proven wrong here...so shoot =)

 -Charles



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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-30 Thread Ralph
Sorry. Dumb iPhone auto correction changed Tropos to tripod.  Lol

On Dec 30, 2009, at 8:05 PM, Ralph ralphli...@bsrg.org wrote:

 We have successfuly used ubiquiti nano and power stations as injection
 radios for numerous tripod and cisco mesh systems. No problems.  Of
 course I have used canopy for it too- no real difference in the end
 performance.

 Would not use Mikrotik for any RF due to our desire to stay legal.

 On Dec 30, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Charles Wu c...@cticonnect.com wrote:

 I find these comparisons of products like Ubiquiti / Mikrotik vs.
 Motorola / WiMAX products to be somewhat unrealistic -- it seems to
 me that it's like comparing something that's hypothetical and looks
 good on paper and hoping that it will actually work

 Here's my question; sure, on paper, the new Ubiquiti WHATEVER will
 give me a Gazillion Mbps with Beamforming and everything for $10 --
 but has anyone actually made this stuff work and scaled it into a
 profitable business?

 Many of the WISPs that I've talked to who gone down this path have
 had to upgrade / replace / retool their networks due to the fact
 that these systems don't scale

 The one WISP that I know using Ubiquiti / Mikrotik with several
 thousand customers is only using them as endpoints on a Bel-Air
 Network Mesh infrastructure that they spent almost $1 million
 building out

 It reminds me of the Asterisk vs. Broadsoft / Metaswitch VoIP
 debates from a couple of years back -- sure, Asterisk was free
 while a Broadsoft platform had an entry cost of $250k, but I know of
 tons of Broadsoft providers who support tens of thousands of
 customers for hosted PBX, and the only guy I know doing it on
 Asterisk ended up spending over $500k hiring a custom programming
 team in Russia to rebuild the system for him from scratch (he was
 joking to me that in hindsight, it would've been cheaper and a lot
 easier to just buy a Broadsoft)

 I would like to be proven wrong here...so shoot =)

 -Charles



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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-30 Thread Jerry Richardson
Here we go again.



-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf 
Of Ralph
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 5:15 PM
To: e...@wisp-router.com; WISPA General List
Cc: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

Go ahead and live the dream then, but please don't homebuild your own  
gear and deploy it in any of my markets. We prefer certified products.

On Dec 30, 2009, at 8:10 PM, e...@wisp-router.com wrote:

 You can use MikroTik and be legal.

 Anyone say any different either don't understand the rules or  
 checked the approved certs or is just spreading FUD.

 /Eje
 Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

 -Original Message-
 From: Ralph ralphli...@bsrg.org
 Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:05:50
 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org
 Cc: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 We have successfuly used ubiquiti nano and power stations as injection
 radios for numerous tripod and cisco mesh systems. No problems.  Of
 course I have used canopy for it too- no real difference in the end
 performance.

 Would not use Mikrotik for any RF due to our desire to stay legal.

 On Dec 30, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Charles Wu c...@cticonnect.com wrote:

 I find these comparisons of products like Ubiquiti / Mikrotik vs.
 Motorola / WiMAX products to be somewhat unrealistic -- it seems to
 me that it's like comparing something that's hypothetical and looks
 good on paper and hoping that it will actually work

 Here's my question; sure, on paper, the new Ubiquiti WHATEVER will
 give me a Gazillion Mbps with Beamforming and everything for $10 --
 but has anyone actually made this stuff work and scaled it into a
 profitable business?

 Many of the WISPs that I've talked to who gone down this path have
 had to upgrade / replace / retool their networks due to the fact
 that these systems don't scale

 The one WISP that I know using Ubiquiti / Mikrotik with several
 thousand customers is only using them as endpoints on a Bel-Air
 Network Mesh infrastructure that they spent almost $1 million
 building out

 It reminds me of the Asterisk vs. Broadsoft / Metaswitch VoIP
 debates from a couple of years back -- sure, Asterisk was free
 while a Broadsoft platform had an entry cost of $250k, but I know of
 tons of Broadsoft providers who support tens of thousands of
 customers for hosted PBX, and the only guy I know doing it on
 Asterisk ended up spending over $500k hiring a custom programming
 team in Russia to rebuild the system for him from scratch (he was
 joking to me that in hindsight, it would've been cheaper and a lot
 easier to just buy a Broadsoft)

 I would like to be proven wrong here...so shoot =)

 -Charles



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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-30 Thread Charles Wu
We have successfuly used ubiquiti nano and power stations as injection  
radios for numerous tripod and cisco mesh systems. No problems.  Of  
course I have used canopy for it too- no real difference in the end  
performance.

But there's a huge difference between using a few here and there and relying 
on things as a platform for wide-scale operations

Let's go back to the original thread -- we were talking about how Ubiquiti was 
changing the game with their new $75 AP that does 150 Mb or something (as 
compared to the Alvarion/Motorolas/WiMAX guys of the world who still don't get 
it with their $3/5/10k APs) -- up until now, it's been my experience that this 
is an apples to oranges debate (heck, couldn't I make the same argument that 
belkin or dlink has had a super-N mimo AP for $69 at Best Buy for some time 
now?)

The last guy I know who tried this (actually a WISP with ~5k customers who 
might be reading this thread =) decided to go all-out with Mikrotik -- sure, 
the APs cost $200 or something, but he found that contention limited him to 
20-30 customers / AP, while an slower and 5x more expensive Canopy system 
allowed him to put 100+ customer / AP -- in his case, one of the things that 
factored into the decision was tower rent

Now, this was probably a year ago and things may have changed...

I am not saying that ubiquity / mikrotik aren't good solutions -- we see nice 
applications for such units to fill in gaps or extend the network where 
terrain is challenging and there are pockets of small density (e.g., a 
neighborhood cul-de-sac or something similar with 3 or 4 additional people) -- 
and I'd probably wager that almost every WISP - Canopy/Alvarion/WiMAX/etc has 
deployed a few nanos/locos/etc in such a manner fashion, but that's a far 
different cry than using it as a primary platform of choice for delivering 
service to thousands of subscribers

That being said, if someone has built such a system, please pipe up and share 
your experiences -- I'm always interested in learning how to do things 
better/faster/cheaper...

-Charles

On Dec 30, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Charles Wu c...@cticonnect.com wrote:

 I find these comparisons of products like Ubiquiti / Mikrotik vs.  
 Motorola / WiMAX products to be somewhat unrealistic -- it seems to  
 me that it's like comparing something that's hypothetical and looks  
 good on paper and hoping that it will actually work

 Here's my question; sure, on paper, the new Ubiquiti WHATEVER will  
 give me a Gazillion Mbps with Beamforming and everything for $10 --  
 but has anyone actually made this stuff work and scaled it into a  
 profitable business?

 Many of the WISPs that I've talked to who gone down this path have  
 had to upgrade / replace / retool their networks due to the fact  
 that these systems don't scale

 The one WISP that I know using Ubiquiti / Mikrotik with several  
 thousand customers is only using them as endpoints on a Bel-Air  
 Network Mesh infrastructure that they spent almost $1 million  
 building out

 It reminds me of the Asterisk vs. Broadsoft / Metaswitch VoIP  
 debates from a couple of years back -- sure, Asterisk was free  
 while a Broadsoft platform had an entry cost of $250k, but I know of  
 tons of Broadsoft providers who support tens of thousands of  
 customers for hosted PBX, and the only guy I know doing it on  
 Asterisk ended up spending over $500k hiring a custom programming  
 team in Russia to rebuild the system for him from scratch (he was  
 joking to me that in hindsight, it would've been cheaper and a lot  
 easier to just buy a Broadsoft)

 I would like to be proven wrong here...so shoot =)

 -Charles



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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-30 Thread Faisal Imtiaz
Charles, 
I don't think that is the point that is being made. While you are correct
with your this is a 'apples to oranges' comparison, it is hard to ignore the
very fact that when folks such as Ubiquity enter the market place, they end
up causing a 'shake down' for everyone, forcing the other mfg. to either
really raise the bar (Product performance / pricing) or move down.

We have seen this many a times in the last 15 years, such things do not
happen overnight and do take time... Look at Linksys They challenged the
'incumbent' networking equipment mfg. many don't exist any more, and today
Linksys is owned and operated by Cisco Regardless of the fact that you
like or dislike linksys products, it is impossible to deny the impact they
have made in the networking equipment market place.

Just like the opensource folks are doing to established software vendors

So here is my prediction Mid-market (Price/performance) mfg. will have a
tough time surviving in the wireless market place... The Current established
High End players will have to decide either come down in their price
preformance or go UP towards the High Price range...

My guess is that the cost of Hardware mfg. is about the same for all (give
or take), but it is the cost of development and QC that makes the
difference...Time and Time again we have seen that folks are willing to put
up with less quality when the cost comes down. Why should it be different
this time ?

It is interesting to see this conversation in a group of folks who came into
being, because of 'innovative' low cost equipment mfg.

One a separate note:- 
Looking at the Wireline Broadband industry's development. The smaller
operators demonstated a viable marketplace for Internet Access...using
'disruptive' gear... And  afterwards, the larger operators stepped in the
make things work at a whole different scale...I am not sure how many of us
here realize that the equipment handling the wire line networks today
(capacity wise) did not exist 10 years ago, some of the larger routers did
not exist even 5 years ago..There are whole product lines (from
Cisco/Nortel/Alcatel etc. which are custom built just for the
Incumbents.simply because there are no other large customers who could
use these types of devices...

Why should the Wirless industry be any different ?
BTW Just 5 years ago, Motorola did not have a Reference customer with
5000 + subscribers...(they themselves did not know if the Canopy system was
going to scale to that level)...But things change...



Faisal Imtiaz
Computer Office Solutions Inc. /SnappyDSL.net
Ph: (305) 663-5518 x 232
-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Charles Wu
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:34 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

We have successfuly used ubiquiti nano and power stations as injection 
radios for numerous tripod and cisco mesh systems. No problems.  Of 
course I have used canopy for it too- no real difference in the end 
performance.

But there's a huge difference between using a few here and there and
relying on things as a platform for wide-scale operations

Let's go back to the original thread -- we were talking about how Ubiquiti
was changing the game with their new $75 AP that does 150 Mb or something
(as compared to the Alvarion/Motorolas/WiMAX guys of the world who still
don't get it with their $3/5/10k APs) -- up until now, it's been my
experience that this is an apples to oranges debate (heck, couldn't I make
the same argument that belkin or dlink has had a super-N mimo AP for $69 at
Best Buy for some time now?)

The last guy I know who tried this (actually a WISP with ~5k customers who
might be reading this thread =) decided to go all-out with Mikrotik --
sure, the APs cost $200 or something, but he found that contention limited
him to 20-30 customers / AP, while an slower and 5x more expensive Canopy
system allowed him to put 100+ customer / AP -- in his case, one of the
things that factored into the decision was tower rent

Now, this was probably a year ago and things may have changed...

I am not saying that ubiquity / mikrotik aren't good solutions -- we see
nice applications for such units to fill in gaps or extend the network
where terrain is challenging and there are pockets of small density (e.g.,
a neighborhood cul-de-sac or something similar with 3 or 4 additional
people) -- and I'd probably wager that almost every WISP -
Canopy/Alvarion/WiMAX/etc has deployed a few nanos/locos/etc in such a
manner fashion, but that's a far different cry than using it as a primary
platform of choice for delivering service to thousands of subscribers

That being said, if someone has built such a system, please pipe up and
share your experiences -- I'm always interested in learning how to do things
better/faster/cheaper...

-Charles

On Dec 30, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Charles Wu c...@cticonnect.com wrote:

 I find

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear - licensed bands btw

2009-12-30 Thread Charles Wu
Speaking of which, did anyone notice the results of the latest BRS Auction (#86)

Licenses went for an average of $0.03 / MHz POP

That means if 60 MHz covering 100,000 people (as defined by Census 2000 
numbers) would have gone for $180k -- with the small business 35% credit - that 
means a WISP would've paid $117k for that spectrum

While $117k is nothing to sneeze at, it's just worth noting that getting a 
license is not something unreasonable or unobtainable for the small guy

-Charles






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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-29 Thread Gino Villarini
Wait for q1 release of the Canopy 320, all that and more

Gino A. Villarini
g...@aeronetpr.com
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
787.273.4143

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Michael Baird
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 3:22 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear

We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our 
basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear 
already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban 
environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible 
with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway 
device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off 
list I would appreciate it.

Regards
Michael Baird




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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-29 Thread Mike Hammett
Self install won't work in 3650 beyond 1/4 mile, maybe 1/2 mile.  Patrick 
has elaborated on this many times.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:22 PM
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our
 basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear
 already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban
 environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible
 with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway
 device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off
 list I would appreciate it.

 Regards
 Michael Baird


 
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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-29 Thread Michael Baird
Gino,

Where can I find detailed info on the product there doesn't seem to be 
much available in regards to it's routing features. I'm also concerned 
about the CPE cost/licenses that's what drove us from Canopy before.

Regards
Michael Baird
 Wait for q1 release of the Canopy 320, all that and more

 Gino A. Villarini
 g...@aeronetpr.com
 Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
 787.273.4143

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Michael Baird
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 3:22 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our 
 basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear 
 already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban 
 environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible 
 with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway 
 device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off 
 list I would appreciate it.

 Regards
 Michael Baird


 
 
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 http://signup.wispa.org/
 
 
  
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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-29 Thread Michael Baird
Patrick works for Aperto, they don't support beamshaping/mimo or 
802.16e, my Alvarion and Navini gear with the non-mimo subscriber radio 
(mimo on the tower) worked at a mile non-LOS. I appreciate the input, 
but it disputes my results in the field (rural heavily treed, not urban).

Regards
Michael Baird
 Self install won't work in 3650 beyond 1/4 mile, maybe 1/2 mile.  Patrick 
 has elaborated on this many times.


 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com



 --
 From: Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:22 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear

   
 We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our
 basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear
 already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban
 environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible
 with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway
 device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off
 list I would appreciate it.

 Regards
 Michael Baird


 
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 http://signup.wispa.org/
 

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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-29 Thread Josh Luthman
Are you (Michael) talking about self install or outdoor install?

Mike (Hammett) is talking about self installs.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources.
--- Albert Einstein


On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 2:53 PM, Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com wrote:

 Patrick works for Aperto, they don't support beamshaping/mimo or
 802.16e, my Alvarion and Navini gear with the non-mimo subscriber radio
 (mimo on the tower) worked at a mile non-LOS. I appreciate the input,
 but it disputes my results in the field (rural heavily treed, not urban).

 Regards
 Michael Baird
  Self install won't work in 3650 beyond 1/4 mile, maybe 1/2 mile.  Patrick
  has elaborated on this many times.
 
 
  -
  Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions
  http://www.ics-il.com
 
 
 
  --
  From: Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com
  Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:22 PM
  To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
  Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear
 
 
  We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our
  basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear
  already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban
  environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible
  with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway
  device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off
  list I would appreciate it.
 
  Regards
  Michael Baird
 
 
 
 
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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-29 Thread Michael Baird
Josh,

I tested via a truck, I could take the Alvarion unit and put it on the 
back seat of the extended cab, and it worked everywhere within a mile 
radius I drove to. This was an outdoor unit with a 14.5 db panel, 
strictly speaking I was testing outdoor (I wanted SI's from Alvarion but 
they aren't available for 3.65 yet). I was supposing that the SI with a 
multiple antenna array and higher transmit would perform similarily to a 
radio sitting flat on the seat of a truck, maybe it was a bad supposition.

Regards
Michael Baird
 Are you (Michael) talking about self install or outdoor install?

 Mike (Hammett) is talking about self installs.

 Josh Luthman
 Office: 937-552-2340
 Direct: 937-552-2343
 1100 Wayne St
 Suite 1337
 Troy, OH 45373

 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources.
 --- Albert Einstein


 On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 2:53 PM, Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com wrote:

   
 Patrick works for Aperto, they don't support beamshaping/mimo or
 802.16e, my Alvarion and Navini gear with the non-mimo subscriber radio
 (mimo on the tower) worked at a mile non-LOS. I appreciate the input,
 but it disputes my results in the field (rural heavily treed, not urban).

 Regards
 Michael Baird
 
 Self install won't work in 3650 beyond 1/4 mile, maybe 1/2 mile.  Patrick
 has elaborated on this many times.


 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com



 --
 From: Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:22 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear


   
 We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our
 basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear
 already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban
 environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible
 with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway
 device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off
 list I would appreciate it.

 Regards
 Michael Baird



 
 
 
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 http://signup.wispa.org/

 
 
 
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 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-29 Thread Jerry Richardson
What you are asking for is going to be priced accordingly.

If you are looking for low cost 3.65 it's going to be Tranzeo or Ubiquity cards 
on MT.

One interesting combination is that Tranzeo makes CPE's that inter-operate with 
Redline.

We'll wait for CAP320 as screwing with anything lese is a waste of our time and 
energy.

Jerry


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf 
Of Michael Baird
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:44 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

Gino,

Where can I find detailed info on the product there doesn't seem to be 
much available in regards to it's routing features. I'm also concerned 
about the CPE cost/licenses that's what drove us from Canopy before.

Regards
Michael Baird
 Wait for q1 release of the Canopy 320, all that and more

 Gino A. Villarini
 g...@aeronetpr.com
 Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
 787.273.4143

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Michael Baird
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 3:22 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our 
 basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear 
 already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban 
 environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible 
 with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway 
 device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off 
 list I would appreciate it.

 Regards
 Michael Baird


 
 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 
 
  
 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-29 Thread Travis Johnson
Q3 is a better guess I think...

Travis
Microserv


Gino Villarini wrote:
 Wait for q1 release of the Canopy 320, all that and more

 Gino A. Villarini
 g...@aeronetpr.com
 Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
 787.273.4143

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Michael Baird
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 3:22 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our 
 basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear 
 already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban 
 environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible 
 with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway 
 device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off 
 list I would appreciate it.

 Regards
 Michael Baird


 
 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 
 
  
 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-29 Thread Josh Luthman
Good information.

Keep in mind customer self installs != radio in truck bed.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources.
--- Albert Einstein


On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 3:00 PM, Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com wrote:

 Josh,

 I tested via a truck, I could take the Alvarion unit and put it on the
 back seat of the extended cab, and it worked everywhere within a mile
 radius I drove to. This was an outdoor unit with a 14.5 db panel,
 strictly speaking I was testing outdoor (I wanted SI's from Alvarion but
 they aren't available for 3.65 yet). I was supposing that the SI with a
 multiple antenna array and higher transmit would perform similarily to a
 radio sitting flat on the seat of a truck, maybe it was a bad supposition.

 Regards
 Michael Baird
  Are you (Michael) talking about self install or outdoor install?
 
  Mike (Hammett) is talking about self installs.
 
  Josh Luthman
  Office: 937-552-2340
  Direct: 937-552-2343
  1100 Wayne St
  Suite 1337
  Troy, OH 45373
 
  The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources.
  --- Albert Einstein
 
 
  On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 2:53 PM, Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com wrote:
 
 
  Patrick works for Aperto, they don't support beamshaping/mimo or
  802.16e, my Alvarion and Navini gear with the non-mimo subscriber radio
  (mimo on the tower) worked at a mile non-LOS. I appreciate the input,
  but it disputes my results in the field (rural heavily treed, not
 urban).
 
  Regards
  Michael Baird
 
  Self install won't work in 3650 beyond 1/4 mile, maybe 1/2 mile.
  Patrick
  has elaborated on this many times.
 
 
  -
  Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions
  http://www.ics-il.com
 
 
 
  --
  From: Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com
  Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:22 PM
  To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
  Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear
 
 
 
  We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our
  basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear
  already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban
  environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if
 possible
  with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway
  device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off
  list I would appreciate it.
 
  Regards
  Michael Baird
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  WISPA Wants You! Join today!
  http://signup.wispa.org/
 
 
 
 
 
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  Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
  http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
 
  Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-29 Thread Gino Villarini
Ouch :-(

Gino A. Villarini
g...@aeronetpr.com
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
787.273.4143

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:09 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

Q3 is a better guess I think...

Travis
Microserv


Gino Villarini wrote:
 Wait for q1 release of the Canopy 320, all that and more

 Gino A. Villarini
 g...@aeronetpr.com
 Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
 787.273.4143

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
On
 Behalf Of Michael Baird
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 3:22 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our

 basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear 
 already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban 
 environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if
possible 
 with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway 
 device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off 
 list I would appreciate it.

 Regards
 Michael Baird




 
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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-29 Thread Michael Baird
Back seat of truck facing the roof, not truck bed.

Regards
Michael Baird
 Good information.

 Keep in mind customer self installs != radio in truck bed.

 Josh Luthman
 Office: 937-552-2340
 Direct: 937-552-2343
 1100 Wayne St
 Suite 1337
 Troy, OH 45373

 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources.
 --- Albert Einstein


 On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 3:00 PM, Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com wrote:

   
 Josh,

 I tested via a truck, I could take the Alvarion unit and put it on the
 back seat of the extended cab, and it worked everywhere within a mile
 radius I drove to. This was an outdoor unit with a 14.5 db panel,
 strictly speaking I was testing outdoor (I wanted SI's from Alvarion but
 they aren't available for 3.65 yet). I was supposing that the SI with a
 multiple antenna array and higher transmit would perform similarily to a
 radio sitting flat on the seat of a truck, maybe it was a bad supposition.

 Regards
 Michael Baird
 
 Are you (Michael) talking about self install or outdoor install?

 Mike (Hammett) is talking about self installs.

 Josh Luthman
 Office: 937-552-2340
 Direct: 937-552-2343
 1100 Wayne St
 Suite 1337
 Troy, OH 45373

 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources.
 --- Albert Einstein


 On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 2:53 PM, Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com wrote:


   
 Patrick works for Aperto, they don't support beamshaping/mimo or
 802.16e, my Alvarion and Navini gear with the non-mimo subscriber radio
 (mimo on the tower) worked at a mile non-LOS. I appreciate the input,
 but it disputes my results in the field (rural heavily treed, not
 
 urban).
 
 Regards
 Michael Baird

 
 Self install won't work in 3650 beyond 1/4 mile, maybe 1/2 mile.
   
  Patrick
 
 has elaborated on this many times.


 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com



 --
 From: Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:22 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear



   
 We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our
 basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear
 already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban
 environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if
 
 possible
 
 with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway
 device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off
 list I would appreciate it.

 Regards
 Michael Baird




 
 
 
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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-29 Thread Josh Luthman
That's what I had in my head typed it out wrong.

Do you have much foliage in the way?  Was this all LOS driving around?

I would imagine once you get inside a house things changes drastically
coming from a truck.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources.
--- Albert Einstein


On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 3:19 PM, Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com wrote:

 Back seat of truck facing the roof, not truck bed.

 Regards
 Michael Baird
  Good information.
 
  Keep in mind customer self installs != radio in truck bed.
 
  Josh Luthman
  Office: 937-552-2340
  Direct: 937-552-2343
  1100 Wayne St
  Suite 1337
  Troy, OH 45373
 
  The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources.
  --- Albert Einstein
 
 
  On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 3:00 PM, Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com wrote:
 
 
  Josh,
 
  I tested via a truck, I could take the Alvarion unit and put it on the
  back seat of the extended cab, and it worked everywhere within a mile
  radius I drove to. This was an outdoor unit with a 14.5 db panel,
  strictly speaking I was testing outdoor (I wanted SI's from Alvarion but
  they aren't available for 3.65 yet). I was supposing that the SI with a
  multiple antenna array and higher transmit would perform similarily to a
  radio sitting flat on the seat of a truck, maybe it was a bad
 supposition.
 
  Regards
  Michael Baird
 
  Are you (Michael) talking about self install or outdoor install?
 
  Mike (Hammett) is talking about self installs.
 
  Josh Luthman
  Office: 937-552-2340
  Direct: 937-552-2343
  1100 Wayne St
  Suite 1337
  Troy, OH 45373
 
  The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources.
  --- Albert Einstein
 
 
  On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 2:53 PM, Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com
 wrote:
 
 
 
  Patrick works for Aperto, they don't support beamshaping/mimo or
  802.16e, my Alvarion and Navini gear with the non-mimo subscriber
 radio
  (mimo on the tower) worked at a mile non-LOS. I appreciate the input,
  but it disputes my results in the field (rural heavily treed, not
 
  urban).
 
  Regards
  Michael Baird
 
 
  Self install won't work in 3650 beyond 1/4 mile, maybe 1/2 mile.
 
   Patrick
 
  has elaborated on this many times.
 
 
  -
  Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions
  http://www.ics-il.com
 
 
 
  --
  From: Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com
  Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:22 PM
  To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
  Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear
 
 
 
 
  We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band,
 our
  basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear
  already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban
  environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if
 
  possible
 
  with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway
  device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me
 off
  list I would appreciate it.
 
  Regards
  Michael Baird
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  WISPA Wants You! Join today!
  http://signup.wispa.org/
 
 
 
 
 
 
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  Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-29 Thread Patrick Leary
Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)?

All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency, less
throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't get any
hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards, since
those are only applicable to licensed bands.


Patrick Leary
Aperto Networks
813.426.4230 mobile

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Michael Baird
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear

We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our
basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear
already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban
environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible
with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway
device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off
list I would appreciate it.

Regards
Michael Baird




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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-29 Thread Rubens Kuhl
Is supporting 802.16e really needed ? If you are providing your own
CPEs, 802.16d, pre-WiMAX or Navini CDMA with beamforming could work
just fine costing much less.

I've tested Redline RedMAX self-install 16d unit and 16d base station
and would give it a try on the real environment you wanna cover. I've
also tested 802.16e gear with MIMO or Beamforming (but not MIMO+BF on
the same product) and although they impressed me for building indoor
coverage,  they all suffered to work on a park very much like NYC's
Central Park.



Rubens


On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 5:53 PM, Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com wrote:
 Patrick works for Aperto, they don't support beamshaping/mimo or
 802.16e, my Alvarion and Navini gear with the non-mimo subscriber radio
 (mimo on the tower) worked at a mile non-LOS. I appreciate the input,
 but it disputes my results in the field (rural heavily treed, not urban).

 Regards
 Michael Baird
 Self install won't work in 3650 beyond 1/4 mile, maybe 1/2 mile.  Patrick
 has elaborated on this many times.


 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com



 --
 From: Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:22 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear


 We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our
 basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear
 already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban
 environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible
 with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway
 device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off
 list I would appreciate it.

 Regards
 Michael Baird


 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 

 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-29 Thread Michael Baird
Patrick,

16e is where the majority of the chipset development is at, and where 
companies such as Alcatel/Cisco/Motorola/Alvarion/Zyxel are focusing, 
and the new big deployments (Clearwire) are using 802.16e, and we want 
the ability to go to 802.16m when available. We also want to take 
advantage of the multipath enviroment utilizing mimo and wave 2 
profiles. We have more hope of interoperability with 16e (Alvarion 
states such things with it's open initiative) then we do with 16d, 
although that isn't something we are counting on.

Patrick, I realize you used to work for Alvarion, and now Aperto but you 
used to evangelize 802.16e and now you evangelize 802.16d, to us 802.16d 
is going to be the lesser of the two technologies and offers little 
advantage over our current wifi deployments, as we move to integrate 
voice into our wireless deployments and replace some of our wireline 
infrastructure and make a large investment in gear we want to be as 
future proof as possible.

Regards
Michael Baird
 Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)?

 All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency, less
 throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't get any
 hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards, since
 those are only applicable to licensed bands.


 Patrick Leary
 Aperto Networks
 813.426.4230 mobile

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Michael Baird
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our
 basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear
 already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban
 environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible
 with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway
 device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off
 list I would appreciate it.

 Regards
 Michael Baird


 
 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 
 
  
 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-29 Thread Rubens Kuhl
On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 7:28 PM, Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com wrote:
 Patrick,

 16e is where the majority of the chipset development is at, and where
 companies such as Alcatel/Cisco/Motorola/Alvarion/Zyxel are focusing,
 and the new big deployments (Clearwire) are using 802.16e, and we want
 the ability to go to 802.16m when available. We also want to take

802.16m will be almost as apart from 16e as 16e is from a 16d on a
radio stand-point; network-wise 16m will follow 16e pretty close, but
that is only unfortunate as 16e requires more of a cellular structure
(BTS, BSC, so forth) which is not a WISP usually wants.

 advantage of the multipath enviroment utilizing mimo and wave 2
 profiles. We have more hope of interoperability with 16e (Alvarion
 states such things with it's open initiative) then we do with 16d,
 although that isn't something we are counting on.

I've heard too many promises from Alvarion to believe any of them. My
previous employer is still waiting for some features and
certifications on the BreezeMAX 16d gear they bought.


 Patrick, I realize you used to work for Alvarion, and now Aperto but you
 used to evangelize 802.16e and now you evangelize 802.16d, to us 802.16d
 is going to be the lesser of the two technologies and offers little
 advantage over our current wifi deployments, as we move to integrate

WiMAX has significant advantages in channel access method compared to
Wi-Fi. Proprietary gear like Alvarion VL, Aperto PacketWave and
Motorola Canopy has the same advantages and one can hope that Mikrotik
Nstreme and Ubiquiti AirMax evolve enough to achieve such a good pps
performance, but that is not the situation right now.

Regarding NLOS, I've found that the OFDM symbol proportion used in
WiMAX also gives better NLOS performance than Wi-Fi. May be one day a
new Atheros chipset may come by with such a feature...


 voice into our wireless deployments and replace some of our wireline
 infrastructure and make a large investment in gear we want to be as
 future proof as possible.

Managing voice and data is mainly a channel access issue (QoS in
marketing lingo), and 2nd a pps (packets per second) issue, both not
what Wi-Fi does best.

Personally I would convert more wireless to wireline than the other
way around...



Rubens



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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-29 Thread Patrick Leary
I used to drink the Koolaid, but in all fairness to Alvarion, there was
much more hope for a .16e future back then. Today, not so much. LTE has
already won and .16e will find only small, limited life and even less
mass development. Even if it had a long life, .16m won't do you a lick
of good in 3.65 GHz anymore than 16e will. These are subsets of
standards that have zero to do with the type of networks all are
building in 3.65 -- fixed. The FCC power and other rules simply do not
make anything but fixed technically feasible. And when things are not
technically feasible in scale, they will never be made to be
economically feasible. That means that no one will invest any truly
significant dollars to have end devices, interoperability and all that. 

3.65 with WiMAX is GREAT for fixed, but people need to wake up from the
misguided dream that any efforts on the mobile WiMAX front have
applicability to 3.65. Trust me, the last person in the world the big
companies in the WiMAX Forum (Intel, Huwaei, etc.) care about is a WISP
owner and they have zero interest in developing products for you. The
only possible exception might be Motorola, but their offer of a 3.65 GHz
product is less of an effort to support WISPs compared to finding a home
for their sunk investment in WiMAX because they will never re-coup it on
the carrier front -- that glossy dream has vanished. (Regardless of
their motives, it is a good -- if late -- move on their part in my
view.)

I understand your fervent hopes and dreams here, but what I am telling
you will save you much pain and wasted investment and cost if you can
accept it. Anyone trying to translate serious .16e/m/etc benefits to the
fixed/3.65 (beyond the slight range advantage of diversity, but at what
cost) world greatly misunderstands the space because every facet --
technical, social, political and economic -- work against you in this
debate. It is a fact, come to it sooner or later, but it is still a
fact.

P.S. -- Alcatel dumped mobile WiMAX development many months ago and
the ranks of those dumping it continues to swell. Those who do not dump
it will find their lunch eaten by Huwaei, who is being subsidized below
cost by the Chinese government in a global strategic effort to capture a
major share of the global telecom market. Huwaei then (in my opinion)
uses its capture of .16e customers as the Trojan Horse to convert that
customer to LTE later.


Patrick Leary
Aperto Networks
813.426.4230 mobile

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Michael Baird
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:28 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

Patrick,

16e is where the majority of the chipset development is at, and where
companies such as Alcatel/Cisco/Motorola/Alvarion/Zyxel are focusing,
and the new big deployments (Clearwire) are using 802.16e, and we want
the ability to go to 802.16m when available. We also want to take
advantage of the multipath enviroment utilizing mimo and wave 2
profiles. We have more hope of interoperability with 16e (Alvarion
states such things with it's open initiative) then we do with 16d,
although that isn't something we are counting on.

Patrick, I realize you used to work for Alvarion, and now Aperto but you
used to evangelize 802.16e and now you evangelize 802.16d, to us 802.16d
is going to be the lesser of the two technologies and offers little
advantage over our current wifi deployments, as we move to integrate
voice into our wireless deployments and replace some of our wireline
infrastructure and make a large investment in gear we want to be as
future proof as possible.

Regards
Michael Baird
 Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)?

 All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency, less 
 throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't get 
 any hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards,

 since those are only applicable to licensed bands.


 Patrick Leary
 Aperto Networks
 813.426.4230 mobile

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] 
 On Behalf Of Michael Baird
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our

 basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear 
 already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban 
 environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if 
 possible with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external 
 gateway device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit

 me off list I would appreciate it.

 Regards
 Michael Baird


 --
 --
 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-29 Thread Gino Villarini
Less?

Moto is comming out with a 16e system with 4.5 bits per hz using mimo

Sent from my Motorola Startac...


On Dec 29, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com  
wrote:

 Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)?

 All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency, less
 throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't get  
 any
 hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards,  
 since
 those are only applicable to licensed bands.


 Patrick Leary
 Aperto Networks
 813.426.4230 mobile

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]  
 On
 Behalf Of Michael Baird
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our
 basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear
 already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban
 environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if  
 possible
 with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway
 device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off
 list I would appreciate it.

 Regards
 Michael Baird


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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-29 Thread Tom DeReggi
 with and 
accept in order to also have the highly valuable higher spectral efficiency 
that MIMO might deliver?

Its possible that Wimax-D might not be the leader in spectral efficiency 
anymore. At minimum, I can argue that MIMO systems will clearly be putting 
the price pressure on WiMax vendors, or for that matter any Vendor stuck on 
legacy single stream RF designs.

I'd argue MIMO in 3650 could be very attractive even if in Dual Pol config, 
simply because there is so little spectrum, and starting new, the RF 
community could be made to conform to dual pol designs easier.

I can tell you, I personally will not pass judgement one way or the other on 
this topic. What I will say is interesting new dynamics are being explored, 
and we are testing technology.



Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


 Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)?

 All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency, less
 throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't get any
 hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards, since
 those are only applicable to licensed bands.


 Patrick Leary
 Aperto Networks
 813.426.4230 mobile

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Michael Baird
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our
 basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear
 already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban
 environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible
 with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway
 device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off
 list I would appreciate it.

 Regards
 Michael Baird


 
 
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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-29 Thread Tom DeReggi
 moto

Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean they are 
talking about comming out with?

In WISP time, there is a big difference.

Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at current 
Canopy level price points.
But that is an if.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:05 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


 Less?

 Moto is comming out with a 16e system with 4.5 bits per hz using mimo

 Sent from my Motorola Startac...


 On Dec 29, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com
 wrote:

 Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)?

 All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency, less
 throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't get
 any
 hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards,
 since
 those are only applicable to licensed bands.


 Patrick Leary
 Aperto Networks
 813.426.4230 mobile

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
 On
 Behalf Of Michael Baird
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our
 basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear
 already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban
 environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if
 possible
 with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway
 device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off
 list I would appreciate it.

 Regards
 Michael Baird


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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-29 Thread Gino Villarini
Soon as in q1 or q2

IIRC
$350~ SM
$3500~ AP

Specs are in the website under 320 series

Sent from my Motorola Startac...


On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net  
wrote:

 moto

 Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean  
 they are
 talking about comming out with?

 In WISP time, there is a big difference.

 Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at  
 current
 Canopy level price points.
 But that is an if.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:05 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


 Less?

 Moto is comming out with a 16e system with 4.5 bits per hz using mimo

 Sent from my Motorola Startac...


 On Dec 29, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com
 wrote:

 Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)?

 All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency, less
 throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't get
 any
 hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards,
 since
 those are only applicable to licensed bands.


 Patrick Leary
 Aperto Networks
 813.426.4230 mobile

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
 On
 Behalf Of Michael Baird
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band,  
 our
 basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear
 already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban
 environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if
 possible
 with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway
 device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me  
 off
 list I would appreciate it.

 Regards
 Michael Baird


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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-29 Thread 3-dB Networks
Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen Moto give
pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way off the
mark.  I hope it's right for Moto sake :-)

Daniel White
3-dB Networks
http://www.3dbnetworks.com
dan...@3-db.net

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Gino Villarini
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

Soon as in q1 or q2

IIRC
$350~ SM
$3500~ AP

Specs are in the website under 320 series

Sent from my Motorola Startac...


On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net  
wrote:

 moto

 Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean  
 they are
 talking about comming out with?

 In WISP time, there is a big difference.

 Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at  
 current
 Canopy level price points.
 But that is an if.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:05 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


 Less?

 Moto is comming out with a 16e system with 4.5 bits per hz using mimo

 Sent from my Motorola Startac...


 On Dec 29, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com
 wrote:

 Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)?

 All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency, less
 throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't get
 any
 hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards,
 since
 those are only applicable to licensed bands.


 Patrick Leary
 Aperto Networks
 813.426.4230 mobile

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
 On
 Behalf Of Michael Baird
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band,  
 our
 basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear
 already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban
 environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if
 possible
 with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway
 device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me  
 off
 list I would appreciate it.

 Regards
 Michael Baird


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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-29 Thread Josh Luthman
And how is this product useful?

10 customers at 50/mo takes 140 months for an ROI.  Assuming that's one AP.

On 12/29/09, Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com wrote:
 Soon as in q1 or q2

 IIRC
 $350~ SM
 $3500~ AP

 Specs are in the website under 320 series

 Sent from my Motorola Startac...


 On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net
 wrote:

 moto

 Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean
 they are
 talking about comming out with?

 In WISP time, there is a big difference.

 Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at
 current
 Canopy level price points.
 But that is an if.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:05 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


 Less?

 Moto is comming out with a 16e system with 4.5 bits per hz using mimo

 Sent from my Motorola Startac...


 On Dec 29, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com
 wrote:

 Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)?

 All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency, less
 throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't get
 any
 hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards,
 since
 those are only applicable to licensed bands.


 Patrick Leary
 Aperto Networks
 813.426.4230 mobile

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
 On
 Behalf Of Michael Baird
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band,
 our
 basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear
 already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban
 environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if
 possible
 with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway
 device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me
 off
 list I would appreciate it.

 Regards
 Michael Baird


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-- 
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Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources.
--- Albert Einstein



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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-29 Thread Blake Covarrubias
  LTE has already won and .16e will find only small, limited life and even less
 mass development.

Do you see any point in small BRS/EBS (MMDS/ITFS) license holders deploying 
802.16e in these frequency bands?

  Huwaei then (in my opinion)
 uses its capture of .16e customers as the Trojan Horse to convert that
 customer to LTE later.

Is any development of LTE in the 2.5 band to make this even possible?

--
Blake Covarrubias





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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-29 Thread Tom DeReggi
I hate to sabatage this 3650 thread, but I cant help myself, when 802.16e is 
mentioned for PtMP

1) Ubiquiti Mimo AP - $89,  capacity up to 150 mb, (or maybe 50mbps might be 
more fair, for avg 20 Mhz channel 2x pole).

2) Mikroik AP MIMO- $400, capacity: same as Ubiquiti, but with Spectrum 
Analysis, and a bit of hassle added.

3) Wimax 802.16e AP (1 antenna) - $9000, capacity: more efficient use of 25 
mbps.

4) Wimax 802.16d AP - ?? $2000 - $7000 ??, capacity: same as Legacy TDD 
OFDM, or CDMA OFDM if small channel in 3.65G.

5) Legacy TDD OFDM- $1800, up to 25 mbps. Better management than wifi

6) Legacy CDMA OFDM AP- $300, capacity like 14 mbps.

7) Legacy DSSS TDD -  $1300, 10mbps


In the transition from Legacy to next adjacent generation, the decissions 
might have been tough. I get it, when some justified WiMax.

But as we jump to the current day, represented at the top of the chart with 
items #1 and #2, it is almost silly to even see 802.16e in the line-up.

Ubiquiti offers 1/100th the price, at 2x to 6x higher capacity than Wimax, 
dependant on how you look at it.

Lets get real, will a WISP still consider Wimax-e, just to get a few feature 
enhancements, that is if they were to use their OWN money?
Sure, we might choose WiMax for a grant, when WiMax will help prove Never 
able to reach profitabilty, without aid. But thats a different game.

Now, we also have to consider, just about all carriers other than Sprint, 
has preferred and will choose LTE.  Its inevidable that LTE will extinguish 
the 802.16e carrier market, so we cant even argue 802.16e will help our exit 
strategy, anymore.

Dont misunderstand me, I dont doubt WiMax's technology. Its good stuff.

So my question is, when will 802.16e manufacturers admit their original 
target market, game plan, and price list is ancient history?

Will recent industry developments force WiMax 802.16e carriers to lower 
their price points down to the levels that are in line with the WISP 
market's expectations?
Surely, its technically possible to reach those price points, Ubiquiti 
proved that, even if with Wifi chipsets.  Arguably, Intel could reach the 
same scale with 802.16e instantly, if manufacturers lowered the AP cost to 
sub $2000.

Will the BTOP/BIP program prevent price drops? Why lower price, when Grant 
programs could keep the price high for atleast 3 more years, beyond what the 
private funded operators would normally allow?

Ubiquiti has set the bar high for our industry, and has got to be the 
largest disruptive force to the ISP industry since Cogent drove transit low 
cost.

Wimax has a challenge in front of them. They lost the carrier market, and if 
you ask me, they'll lose the WISP market to, if they dont lower their price 
and up their game.

I agree, WISPs would rather a full featured WiMax product, but when its 
being compared against a $90 product that is like Wifi on steroids, its a 
new game.
I predict there will be numerous manufacturers this year filling the market 
that Mikrotik is currently leading the effort to tackle.

Its the markets where its realized that a $99 AP is not necessary, and 
compromises like giving up spectrum analysis cant be accepted, but where 
manufacturers will challenge themselve to see how close to the price point 
they can get, without compromising advanced features.

History showed us that Consumers will choose Linksys over Cisco. Eventually 
Cisco realized they had to become Linksys, in some capacity.



Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband




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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-29 Thread Patrick Leary
BRS/EBS is a different story entirely and the only place where .16e has
a reasonable home in my opinion. The power allows for a zero truck roll
model, meaning self-install indoor modems become viable. But that comes
with some cost. I believe in BRS/EBS it makes sense to invest in a 5
meter clutter study so you know EXACTLY which addresses you can connect
at the right modulation and do not vary from that plan. This keeps the
network performing best technically and enables you to target your
marketing with perfect efficiency.


Patrick Leary
Aperto Networks
813.426.4230 mobile

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Blake Covarrubias
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 3:47 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

  LTE has already won and .16e will find only small, limited life and 
 even less mass development.

Do you see any point in small BRS/EBS (MMDS/ITFS) license holders
deploying 802.16e in these frequency bands?

  Huwaei then (in my opinion)
 uses its capture of .16e customers as the Trojan Horse to convert that

 customer to LTE later.

Is any development of LTE in the 2.5 band to make this even possible?

--
Blake Covarrubias






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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-29 Thread Patrick Leary
In our case, the numbers are about $20k for three sectors yielding an
aggregate of about 60 mbps net for that cell. With WiMAX scheduling and
our QoS, you could realistically connect well over 600 CPE in that cell.
The sweet spot remains commercial, especially when implementing a double
play of voice and data, so you can generate high ARPU.


Patrick Leary
Aperto Networks
813.426.4230 mobile

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:00 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

I hate to sabatage this 3650 thread, but I cant help myself, when
802.16e is mentioned for PtMP

1) Ubiquiti Mimo AP - $89,  capacity up to 150 mb, (or maybe 50mbps
might be more fair, for avg 20 Mhz channel 2x pole).

2) Mikroik AP MIMO- $400, capacity: same as Ubiquiti, but with Spectrum
Analysis, and a bit of hassle added.

3) Wimax 802.16e AP (1 antenna) - $9000, capacity: more efficient use of
25 mbps.

4) Wimax 802.16d AP - ?? $2000 - $7000 ??, capacity: same as Legacy TDD
OFDM, or CDMA OFDM if small channel in 3.65G.

5) Legacy TDD OFDM- $1800, up to 25 mbps. Better management than wifi

6) Legacy CDMA OFDM AP- $300, capacity like 14 mbps.

7) Legacy DSSS TDD -  $1300, 10mbps


In the transition from Legacy to next adjacent generation, the
decissions might have been tough. I get it, when some justified WiMax.

But as we jump to the current day, represented at the top of the chart
with items #1 and #2, it is almost silly to even see 802.16e in the
line-up.

Ubiquiti offers 1/100th the price, at 2x to 6x higher capacity than
Wimax, dependant on how you look at it.

Lets get real, will a WISP still consider Wimax-e, just to get a few
feature enhancements, that is if they were to use their OWN money?
Sure, we might choose WiMax for a grant, when WiMax will help prove
Never able to reach profitabilty, without aid. But thats a different
game.

Now, we also have to consider, just about all carriers other than
Sprint, has preferred and will choose LTE.  Its inevidable that LTE will
extinguish the 802.16e carrier market, so we cant even argue 802.16e
will help our exit strategy, anymore.

Dont misunderstand me, I dont doubt WiMax's technology. Its good stuff.

So my question is, when will 802.16e manufacturers admit their original
target market, game plan, and price list is ancient history?

Will recent industry developments force WiMax 802.16e carriers to lower
their price points down to the levels that are in line with the WISP
market's expectations?
Surely, its technically possible to reach those price points, Ubiquiti
proved that, even if with Wifi chipsets.  Arguably, Intel could reach
the same scale with 802.16e instantly, if manufacturers lowered the AP
cost to sub $2000.

Will the BTOP/BIP program prevent price drops? Why lower price, when
Grant programs could keep the price high for atleast 3 more years,
beyond what the private funded operators would normally allow?

Ubiquiti has set the bar high for our industry, and has got to be the
largest disruptive force to the ISP industry since Cogent drove transit
low cost.

Wimax has a challenge in front of them. They lost the carrier market,
and if you ask me, they'll lose the WISP market to, if they dont lower
their price and up their game.

I agree, WISPs would rather a full featured WiMax product, but when its
being compared against a $90 product that is like Wifi on steroids, its
a new game.
I predict there will be numerous manufacturers this year filling the
market that Mikrotik is currently leading the effort to tackle.

Its the markets where its realized that a $99 AP is not necessary, and
compromises like giving up spectrum analysis cant be accepted, but where
manufacturers will challenge themselve to see how close to the price
point they can get, without compromising advanced features.

History showed us that Consumers will choose Linksys over Cisco.
Eventually Cisco realized they had to become Linksys, in some capacity.



Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband





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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-29 Thread Tom DeReggi
I read the Moto 802.16e MIMO spec.  I found it interesting that receive 
sensitivy for QAM64 was -89.  That is awesome, compared to wifi OFDM of 
about -68.
Doesn't help with the noise floor SNR requirements though. I also found it 
insightful that the 802.16e model AUTO shifted from MIMO A to B.  Its uses 
Dual Pol methodology.
(A = same data send on each pol for higher receive  signal and NLOS 
penetration, B = different data sent on each pol for double throughput, but 
no link budget improvement)

On the 430 5.8Ghz OFDM line, I had heard that it was going to be limited to 
integrated antenna CPE and Verticle Pol only. Is that true? Or will it have 
an external antenna CPE option?
I know a Beehive can be put on the 10dbi ant to make it higher, but it would 
still be discouraging if product prevented from using high end parabolic 
dishes.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


 Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen Moto 
 give
 pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way off 
 the
 mark.  I hope it's right for Moto sake :-)

 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks
 http://www.3dbnetworks.com
 dan...@3-db.net

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Gino Villarini
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 Soon as in q1 or q2

 IIRC
 $350~ SM
 $3500~ AP

 Specs are in the website under 320 series

 Sent from my Motorola Startac...


 On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net
 wrote:

 moto

 Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean
 they are
 talking about comming out with?

 In WISP time, there is a big difference.

 Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at
 current
 Canopy level price points.
 But that is an if.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:05 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


 Less?

 Moto is comming out with a 16e system with 4.5 bits per hz using mimo

 Sent from my Motorola Startac...


 On Dec 29, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com
 wrote:

 Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)?

 All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency, less
 throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't get
 any
 hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards,
 since
 those are only applicable to licensed bands.


 Patrick Leary
 Aperto Networks
 813.426.4230 mobile

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
 On
 Behalf Of Michael Baird
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band,
 our
 basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear
 already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban
 environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if
 possible
 with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway
 device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me
 off
 list I would appreciate it.

 Regards
 Michael Baird


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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-29 Thread Tom DeReggi
Patrick,

Just for the record, let me say I realize there are many little details 
between WiMax and Wifi that can translate to real big differences in value 
proposition gain for Wimax, after all said and done.  There is no doubt in 
my mind that Wimax-D price tags for top quality gear can results in a 
reasonable ROI for those targeting commercial markets. More so when a 
company graduates from mompop size operation to a company that has to be 
able to scale easilly.

But it has never really mattered what the profit or revenue potential was 
for using a product. At the end of the day operators dont pay more than they 
have to pay for anything. No business does. As an example, its ludacris that 
I pay more for one of my core roof rights sites than I do for the transit 
fiber that serves my entire foot print of customers made possible by 24 cell 
sites. But I pay less for transit, because there is competition between 
vendors, and I can. Its irrelevent that the transit should be worth a higher 
percentage of my revenue.  As well, I pay more than I should for that one 
high priced roof, because there was competition amongst buyers, and I 
legitimately needed that space.

Clearly in 3.65ghz,  there is an immediate opportunity for manufacturers to 
hold on to high margins for longer, and justify them. But...

I still stand behind my core point.  The dynamics are changing. Prices are 
falling, and low price gear is starting to become more feature rich, closer 
to a WiMax product, tolerable to scale an operation.  The gap between Wifi 
and Wimax is shrinking.

It will be an interesting year in wireless technology again this year.

My 2010 New Years Wish is that maybe in 2010, 80Ghz manufacturers will step 
up to make progress equivellent or in line with  Licensed 6-23G PTP and 
3.5-5.8G  PtMP manufacturers that made major advancements in 2009.

The technology is there, I just hope our industry accomplishes the price 
point needed for mass scale in time, before companies like ATT get fiber to 
every home by 2015 :-)

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:13 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


 In our case, the numbers are about $20k for three sectors yielding an
 aggregate of about 60 mbps net for that cell. With WiMAX scheduling and
 our QoS, you could realistically connect well over 600 CPE in that cell.
 The sweet spot remains commercial, especially when implementing a double
 play of voice and data, so you can generate high ARPU.


 Patrick Leary
 Aperto Networks
 813.426.4230 mobile

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:00 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 I hate to sabatage this 3650 thread, but I cant help myself, when
 802.16e is mentioned for PtMP

 1) Ubiquiti Mimo AP - $89,  capacity up to 150 mb, (or maybe 50mbps
 might be more fair, for avg 20 Mhz channel 2x pole).

 2) Mikroik AP MIMO- $400, capacity: same as Ubiquiti, but with Spectrum
 Analysis, and a bit of hassle added.

 3) Wimax 802.16e AP (1 antenna) - $9000, capacity: more efficient use of
 25 mbps.

 4) Wimax 802.16d AP - ?? $2000 - $7000 ??, capacity: same as Legacy TDD
 OFDM, or CDMA OFDM if small channel in 3.65G.

 5) Legacy TDD OFDM- $1800, up to 25 mbps. Better management than wifi

 6) Legacy CDMA OFDM AP- $300, capacity like 14 mbps.

 7) Legacy DSSS TDD -  $1300, 10mbps


 In the transition from Legacy to next adjacent generation, the
 decissions might have been tough. I get it, when some justified WiMax.

 But as we jump to the current day, represented at the top of the chart
 with items #1 and #2, it is almost silly to even see 802.16e in the
 line-up.

 Ubiquiti offers 1/100th the price, at 2x to 6x higher capacity than
 Wimax, dependant on how you look at it.

 Lets get real, will a WISP still consider Wimax-e, just to get a few
 feature enhancements, that is if they were to use their OWN money?
 Sure, we might choose WiMax for a grant, when WiMax will help prove
 Never able to reach profitabilty, without aid. But thats a different
 game.

 Now, we also have to consider, just about all carriers other than
 Sprint, has preferred and will choose LTE.  Its inevidable that LTE will
 extinguish the 802.16e carrier market, so we cant even argue 802.16e
 will help our exit strategy, anymore.

 Dont misunderstand me, I dont doubt WiMax's technology. Its good stuff.

 So my question is, when will 802.16e manufacturers admit their original
 target market, game plan, and price list is ancient history?

 Will recent industry developments force WiMax 802.16e carriers to lower
 their price points down to the levels that are in line with the WISP
 market's expectations?
 Surely, its technically possible

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-29 Thread Gino Villarini
Tom

ROTFL

You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e

That's like comparing a Yugo  with a Porsche

Sent from my Motorola Startac...


On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net  
wrote:

 I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is  
 here for
 the long haul.
 From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto  
 products
 on their way.

 No problem with the $350 CPE level.

 But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO.

 The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is  
 not
 that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, very
 insignificant compared to the market value of the higher capacity.   
 Its all
 opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more  
 antennas,
 etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today than their  
 legacy
 components were when they were designed).

 I'd also argue that RF speed/price  is similar to Computer CPU speed/ 
 price
 concepts.  50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps was  
 to us 5
 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the cost of  
 10mbps 5
 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the new technology.   
 This is
 from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as  
 well as
 technology advancement.

 I'd pose the same arguements

 Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500.   Paying 35x more for an AP is a  
 tough
 call.

 Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP, simply
 because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create noise,
 before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from  
 calling
 themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs.

 But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage  
 line AP
 cost in order to make a big splash in the market.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net
 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


 Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen  
 Moto
 give
 pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way  
 off
 the
 mark.  I hope it's right for Moto sake :-)

 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks
 http://www.3dbnetworks.com
 dan...@3-db.net

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- 
 boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Gino Villarini
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 Soon as in q1 or q2

 IIRC
 $350~ SM
 $3500~ AP

 Specs are in the website under 320 series

 Sent from my Motorola Startac...


 On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Tom DeReggi  
 wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net
 wrote:

 moto

 Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean
 they are
 talking about comming out with?

 In WISP time, there is a big difference.

 Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at
 current
 Canopy level price points.
 But that is an if.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:05 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


 Less?

 Moto is comming out with a 16e system with 4.5 bits per hz using  
 mimo

 Sent from my Motorola Startac...


 On Dec 29, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com
 wrote:

 Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)?

 All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency,  
 less
 throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't  
 get
 any
 hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards,
 since
 those are only applicable to licensed bands.


 Patrick Leary
 Aperto Networks
 813.426.4230 mobile

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- 
 boun...@wispa.org]
 On
 Behalf Of Michael Baird
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band,
 our
 basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear
 already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban
 environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if
 possible
 with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway
 device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me
 off
 list I would appreciate it.

 Regards
 Michael Baird


 ---
 ---
 --
 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-29 Thread Gino Villarini
430 cpe is the same as current Canopy SM's

Sent from my Motorola Startac...


On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net  
wrote:

 I read the Moto 802.16e MIMO spec.  I found it interesting that  
 receive
 sensitivy for QAM64 was -89.  That is awesome, compared to wifi OFDM  
 of
 about -68.
 Doesn't help with the noise floor SNR requirements though. I also  
 found it
 insightful that the 802.16e model AUTO shifted from MIMO A to B.   
 Its uses
 Dual Pol methodology.
 (A = same data send on each pol for higher receive  signal and NLOS
 penetration, B = different data sent on each pol for double  
 throughput, but
 no link budget improvement)

 On the 430 5.8Ghz OFDM line, I had heard that it was going to be  
 limited to
 integrated antenna CPE and Verticle Pol only. Is that true? Or will  
 it have
 an external antenna CPE option?
 I know a Beehive can be put on the 10dbi ant to make it higher, but  
 it would
 still be discouraging if product prevented from using high end  
 parabolic
 dishes.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net
 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


 Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen  
 Moto
 give
 pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way  
 off
 the
 mark.  I hope it's right for Moto sake :-)

 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks
 http://www.3dbnetworks.com
 dan...@3-db.net

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- 
 boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Gino Villarini
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 Soon as in q1 or q2

 IIRC
 $350~ SM
 $3500~ AP

 Specs are in the website under 320 series

 Sent from my Motorola Startac...


 On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Tom DeReggi  
 wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net
 wrote:

 moto

 Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean
 they are
 talking about comming out with?

 In WISP time, there is a big difference.

 Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at
 current
 Canopy level price points.
 But that is an if.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:05 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


 Less?

 Moto is comming out with a 16e system with 4.5 bits per hz using  
 mimo

 Sent from my Motorola Startac...


 On Dec 29, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com
 wrote:

 Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)?

 All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency,  
 less
 throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't  
 get
 any
 hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards,
 since
 those are only applicable to licensed bands.


 Patrick Leary
 Aperto Networks
 813.426.4230 mobile

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- 
 boun...@wispa.org]
 On
 Behalf Of Michael Baird
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band,
 our
 basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear
 already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban
 environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if
 possible
 with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway
 device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me
 off
 list I would appreciate it.

 Regards
 Michael Baird


 ---
 ---
 --
 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 ---
 ---
 --
 

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 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-29 Thread Gino Villarini
Tom

Do you have any Ubiquity AirMac in production?

Sent from my Motorola Startac...


On Dec 29, 2009, at 8:15 PM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com  
wrote:

 In our case, the numbers are about $20k for three sectors yielding an
 aggregate of about 60 mbps net for that cell. With WiMAX scheduling  
 and
 our QoS, you could realistically connect well over 600 CPE in that  
 cell.
 The sweet spot remains commercial, especially when implementing a  
 double
 play of voice and data, so you can generate high ARPU.


 Patrick Leary
 Aperto Networks
 813.426.4230 mobile

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]  
 On
 Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:00 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 I hate to sabatage this 3650 thread, but I cant help myself, when
 802.16e is mentioned for PtMP

 1) Ubiquiti Mimo AP - $89,  capacity up to 150 mb, (or maybe 50mbps
 might be more fair, for avg 20 Mhz channel 2x pole).

 2) Mikroik AP MIMO- $400, capacity: same as Ubiquiti, but with  
 Spectrum
 Analysis, and a bit of hassle added.

 3) Wimax 802.16e AP (1 antenna) - $9000, capacity: more efficient  
 use of
 25 mbps.

 4) Wimax 802.16d AP - ?? $2000 - $7000 ??, capacity: same as Legacy  
 TDD
 OFDM, or CDMA OFDM if small channel in 3.65G.

 5) Legacy TDD OFDM- $1800, up to 25 mbps. Better management than wifi

 6) Legacy CDMA OFDM AP- $300, capacity like 14 mbps.

 7) Legacy DSSS TDD -  $1300, 10mbps


 In the transition from Legacy to next adjacent generation, the
 decissions might have been tough. I get it, when some justified WiMax.

 But as we jump to the current day, represented at the top of the chart
 with items #1 and #2, it is almost silly to even see 802.16e in the
 line-up.

 Ubiquiti offers 1/100th the price, at 2x to 6x higher capacity than
 Wimax, dependant on how you look at it.

 Lets get real, will a WISP still consider Wimax-e, just to get a few
 feature enhancements, that is if they were to use their OWN money?
 Sure, we might choose WiMax for a grant, when WiMax will help prove
 Never able to reach profitabilty, without aid. But thats a different
 game.

 Now, we also have to consider, just about all carriers other than
 Sprint, has preferred and will choose LTE.  Its inevidable that LTE  
 will
 extinguish the 802.16e carrier market, so we cant even argue 802.16e
 will help our exit strategy, anymore.

 Dont misunderstand me, I dont doubt WiMax's technology. Its good  
 stuff.

 So my question is, when will 802.16e manufacturers admit their  
 original
 target market, game plan, and price list is ancient history?

 Will recent industry developments force WiMax 802.16e carriers to  
 lower
 their price points down to the levels that are in line with the WISP
 market's expectations?
 Surely, its technically possible to reach those price points, Ubiquiti
 proved that, even if with Wifi chipsets.  Arguably, Intel could reach
 the same scale with 802.16e instantly, if manufacturers lowered the AP
 cost to sub $2000.

 Will the BTOP/BIP program prevent price drops? Why lower price, when
 Grant programs could keep the price high for atleast 3 more years,
 beyond what the private funded operators would normally allow?

 Ubiquiti has set the bar high for our industry, and has got to be the
 largest disruptive force to the ISP industry since Cogent drove  
 transit
 low cost.

 Wimax has a challenge in front of them. They lost the carrier market,
 and if you ask me, they'll lose the WISP market to, if they dont lower
 their price and up their game.

 I agree, WISPs would rather a full featured WiMax product, but when  
 its
 being compared against a $90 product that is like Wifi on steroids,  
 its
 a new game.
 I predict there will be numerous manufacturers this year filling the
 market that Mikrotik is currently leading the effort to tackle.

 Its the markets where its realized that a $99 AP is not necessary, and
 compromises like giving up spectrum analysis cant be accepted, but  
 where
 manufacturers will challenge themselve to see how close to the price
 point they can get, without compromising advanced features.

 History showed us that Consumers will choose Linksys over Cisco.
 Eventually Cisco realized they had to become Linksys, in some  
 capacity.



 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband



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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-29 Thread Mike Hammett
I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche...  in the 
right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the Porsche 
is 35x more expensive.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 Tom

 ROTFL

 You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e

 That's like comparing a Yugo  with a Porsche

 Sent from my Motorola Startac...


 On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net
 wrote:

 I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is
 here for
 the long haul.
 From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto
 products
 on their way.

 No problem with the $350 CPE level.

 But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO.

 The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is
 not
 that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, very
 insignificant compared to the market value of the higher capacity.
 Its all
 opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more
 antennas,
 etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today than their
 legacy
 components were when they were designed).

 I'd also argue that RF speed/price  is similar to Computer CPU speed/
 price
 concepts.  50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps was
 to us 5
 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the cost of
 10mbps 5
 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the new technology.
 This is
 from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as
 well as
 technology advancement.

 I'd pose the same arguements

 Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500.   Paying 35x more for an AP is a
 tough
 call.

 Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP, simply
 because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create noise,
 before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from
 calling
 themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs.

 But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage
 line AP
 cost in order to make a big splash in the market.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net
 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


 Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen
 Moto
 give
 pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way
 off
 the
 mark.  I hope it's right for Moto sake :-)

 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks
 http://www.3dbnetworks.com
 dan...@3-db.net

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-
 boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Gino Villarini
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 Soon as in q1 or q2

 IIRC
 $350~ SM
 $3500~ AP

 Specs are in the website under 320 series

 Sent from my Motorola Startac...


 On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Tom DeReggi
 wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net
 wrote:

 moto

 Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean
 they are
 talking about comming out with?

 In WISP time, there is a big difference.

 Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at
 current
 Canopy level price points.
 But that is an if.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:05 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


 Less?

 Moto is comming out with a 16e system with 4.5 bits per hz using
 mimo

 Sent from my Motorola Startac...


 On Dec 29, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com
 wrote:

 Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)?

 All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency,
 less
 throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't
 get
 any
 hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards,
 since
 those are only applicable to licensed bands.


 Patrick Leary
 Aperto Networks
 813.426.4230 mobile

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-
 boun...@wispa.org]
 On
 Behalf Of Michael Baird
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band,
 our
 basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear
 already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban
 environment with self install radios

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-29 Thread Rubens Kuhl
On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 10:00 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote:
 I hate to sabatage this 3650 thread, but I cant help myself, when 802.16e is
 mentioned for PtMP

 1) Ubiquiti Mimo AP - $89,  capacity up to 150 mb, (or maybe 50mbps might be
 more fair, for avg 20 Mhz channel 2x pole).

Not available yet for 3.65 MHz, and will be limited to 5 MHz channel
instead of 7 MHz channel.
I don't know US regulations for 5.4-5.7 GHz, but even with limited
power there are lots of spectrum in many markets that will probably do
as fine as 3.65 MHz in this band, opposed to 5.7-5.8 GHz which is
crowded in any part of the world.





Rubens



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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-29 Thread Gino Villarini
I have owned both. Porsche is a true piece of german engineering

Corvette was GM crap


Sent from my Motorola Startac...


On Dec 29, 2009, at 10:40 PM, Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics- 
il.net wrote:

 I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche...  in  
 the
 right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the  
 Porsche
 is 35x more expensive.


 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com



 --
 From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 Tom

 ROTFL

 You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e

 That's like comparing a Yugo  with a Porsche

 Sent from my Motorola Startac...


 On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, Tom DeReggi  
 wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net
 wrote:

 I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is
 here for
 the long haul.
 From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto
 products
 on their way.

 No problem with the $350 CPE level.

 But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO.

 The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is
 not
 that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, very
 insignificant compared to the market value of the higher capacity.
 Its all
 opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more
 antennas,
 etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today than their
 legacy
 components were when they were designed).

 I'd also argue that RF speed/price  is similar to Computer CPU  
 speed/
 price
 concepts.  50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps was
 to us 5
 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the cost of
 10mbps 5
 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the new technology.
 This is
 from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as
 well as
 technology advancement.

 I'd pose the same arguements

 Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500.   Paying 35x more for an AP is a
 tough
 call.

 Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP,  
 simply
 because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create  
 noise,
 before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from
 calling
 themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs.

 But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage
 line AP
 cost in order to make a big splash in the market.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net
 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


 Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen
 Moto
 give
 pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way
 off
 the
 mark.  I hope it's right for Moto sake :-)

 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks
 http://www.3dbnetworks.com
 dan...@3-db.net

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-
 boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Gino Villarini
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 Soon as in q1 or q2

 IIRC
 $350~ SM
 $3500~ AP

 Specs are in the website under 320 series

 Sent from my Motorola Startac...


 On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Tom DeReggi
 wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net
 wrote:

 moto

 Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really  
 mean
 they are
 talking about comming out with?

 In WISP time, there is a big difference.

 Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at
 current
 Canopy level price points.
 But that is an if.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:05 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


 Less?

 Moto is comming out with a 16e system with 4.5 bits per hz using
 mimo

 Sent from my Motorola Startac...


 On Dec 29, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com 
 
 wrote:

 Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)?

 All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency,
 less
 throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't
 get
 any
 hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC  
 cards,
 since
 those are only applicable to licensed bands.


 Patrick Leary
 Aperto Networks
 813.426.4230 mobile

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-
 boun...@wispa.org]
 On
 Behalf Of Michael Baird
 Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-29 Thread Charles Wu
  LTE has already won and .16e will find only small, limited life and even 
 less
 mass development.

Do you see any point in small BRS/EBS (MMDS/ITFS) license holders deploying 
802.16e in these frequency bands?

Hi Blake,

I'd say the question boils down to who's going to foot the bill for the 
deployment -- you or the government =)

-Charles






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Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

2009-12-29 Thread Blake Covarrubias
 I'd say the question boils down to who's going to foot the bill for the 
 deployment -- you or the government =)


With or without government stimulus I'm curious of the lists' general consensus 
on whether or not WiMAX is worthwhile investment in this 'war' of LTE vs WiMAX. 
Having Uncle Sam foot the bill on a deployment definitely lowers / removes the 
financial barrier, but doesn't really matter if deploying WiMAX is a foolish 
endeavor from the get-go due to lack of customer demand or vendors ceasing 
development.

I believe WiMAX has an opportunity to be commercially viable at least for a 
couple of years, and I don't see any reason to not take advantage of that fact. 
But, what do I know.

Consider this a question solely for the sake of debate.

--
Blake Covarrubias



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