Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-11 Thread Forrest W. Christian
Clint Ricker wrote: Not to be overly provocative here, but why are you paying $60/meg? I'd be more than happy to pay less. Please let me know where I can buy a DS3 or OC3 delivered somewhere within my footprint or at most only a couple of radio hops away for less than the $50-75 I'm paying

Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-11 Thread Matt Liotta
Forrest W. Christian wrote: Clint Ricker wrote: Not to be overly provocative here, but why are you paying $60/meg? I'd be more than happy to pay less. Please let me know where I can buy a DS3 or OC3 delivered somewhere within my footprint or at most only a couple of radio hops away for less

Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-11 Thread Clint Ricker
I realize ideas like this aren't a one-size fits all. Geography, topography, and so forth sometimes makes this uneconomical. I will say, though, that usually independent ISPs (non-Wisps) that have gone down this route, whether for server aggregation, bandwidth aggregation, DSL aggregation,

Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-11 Thread Forrest W. Christian
Matt Liotta wrote: You are correct that doing radio hops to the closest major market is a good way to go, but in your case the mileage is just too high. How far away are you from Microserve, which is in Idaho. I believe they serve Boise, which probably has cheaper bandwidth. Knowing what I

Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-11 Thread Mike Hammett
Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 7:30 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not) Forrest W. Christian

Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-11 Thread Matt Liotta
Forrest W. Christian wrote: Knowing what I know about the territory out here is that when Microserv said (paraphrasing) 200 miles is the cheap bandwidth, they probably mean Salt Lake City. It's 200 miles from us to him, and just guessing, there would probably be around 8-10 hops to get to

Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-11 Thread Clint Ricker
Not to mention that you can possibly use these intermediate hops as pops for future expansion On 9/11/07, Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Forrest W. Christian wrote: Knowing what I know about the territory out here is that when Microserv said (paraphrasing) 200 miles is the cheap

Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-11 Thread Forrest W. Christian
Clint Ricker wrote: Not to mention that you can possibly use these intermediate hops as pops for future expansion Not these hops... Generally, they are on the tops of hills that can't see anything other than the next hill. The other point I failed to mention, is that I suspect that I

Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-11 Thread Forrest W. Christian
Matt Liotta wrote: I don't know the area, but 8-10 hops sounds high to me as that is only 20-25 miles a hop. Last I checked, 20-25 miles/hop is about as far as you can go to drag OC3 level service in a reliable fashion, other than maybe using very huge dishes on 6Ghz. I would have to do the

Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-10 Thread Clint Ricker
I agree with Rick and Mike...the basic model of providing marginal speeds (less than 2 Mb/s) at above market prcies is unsustainable over the next few years. I'm not a WISP (I do a lot of consulting for various service providers--telcos, MSOs, independent ISPs of all sorts). It works in ultra

installers (was Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not))

2007-09-10 Thread Matt Liotta
Travis Johnson wrote: And, right now, we have more business than we can keep up with. We did 114 installs last month and could have done 140+ if we could find installers to hire. While we don't do residential and therefore don't share the same concerns mentioned in this thread, the amount of

Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-10 Thread Sam Tetherow
Forrest, I didn't mean to be offensive in my email, or imply that you are doing anything bad with your billing/usage model. I was just stating my opinion concerning the increased usage of bandwidth by customers and the WISP industry in general. I'm pretty sure that everyone agrees that

Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-10 Thread Forrest W Christian
Sam Tetherow wrote: Forrest, I didn't mean to be offensive in my email, or imply that you are doing anything bad with your billing/usage model. I was just stating my opinion concerning the increased usage of bandwidth by customers and the WISP industry in general. If I came accross defensive,

Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-10 Thread Clint Ricker
We provide symmetrical service to our customers. 2Mb/s down and up... show me a typical Cable or DSL provider who can do that. In fact, most cable plants are severely limited in the upload direction just because of how the return path is configured (it all lives below channel 2). You can

Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-10 Thread George Rogato
Forrest W Christian wrote: we're trying to rid ourselves of exactly the same people that the cable companies are ridding themselves of - those which expect a full bore pipe for less than it costs us to purchase the bandwidth. I just had a guy who wanted to sign up but wanted to define what

Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-10 Thread Clint Ricker
Not to be overly provocative here, but why are you paying $60/meg? You're a trade organization...make deals with each other, share your upstream peers, buy in bulk, and get your $60/meg to $30/meg, $20/meg, or even lower... -Clint Ricker Kentnis Technologies On 9/10/07, George Rogato [EMAIL

Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-10 Thread Mike Hammett
@wispa.org Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 4:18 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not) Not to be overly provocative here, but why are you paying $60/meg? You're a trade organization...make deals with each other, share your upstream peers, buy in bulk, and get your $60/meg

Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-10 Thread Matt Liotta
Mike Hammett wrote: I'm paying $150, but I only have 1. ;-) Getting together on purchases of things never really seems to get anywhere. The reason one side has to be the vendor and the other side the customer. Nobody seems to want to be the customer of their peer. -Matt

Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-10 Thread Sam Tetherow
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm paying $85/meg but over half that cost is in transport which I can't do anything about. And before you tell me to bring it in wirelessly I suggest you do a google map on Valentine Nebraska ;) The last time I checked I was significantly cheaper than

Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-10 Thread Clint Ricker
: Clint Ricker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 4:18 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not) Not to be overly provocative here, but why are you paying $60/meg? You're a trade organization...make deals

Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-10 Thread Travis Johnson
That doesn't work really well because of the various WISPs around the entire country. Our biggest expense isn't the actual bandwidth (that's usually around $20/meg)... it's the cost of the transport from the closest NOC. For us, that transport is at least 200 miles. Travis Microserv Clint

Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-10 Thread George Rogato
Clint Ricker wrote: Not to be overly provocative here, but why are you paying $60/meg? You're a trade organization...make deals with each other, share your upstream peers, buy in bulk, and get your $60/meg to $30/meg, $20/meg, or even lower... -Clint Ricker Kentnis Technologies Hmmm, How

Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-09 Thread Mike Hammett
I've been saying this for a long time, but no one really cares to listen. They're all happy with 768kb service. The only way I can see doing it now is if you can use 5 gig and are using DFS2 gear. Mikrotik and StarOS are the only systems that can put enough throughput in the air to be able

RE: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-09 Thread Mike Delp
We have over 2500 wireless clients, and we are in direct competition with Cable and DSL. We have customers switch over to our higher priced lower limits every day because we can provide SERVICE that the cable/telcos can't provide. We average 85 install per month, and we don't have any big

Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-09 Thread Mike Hammett
- From: Mike Delp [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 6:49 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not) We have over 2500 wireless clients, and we are in direct competition with Cable and DSL. We have customers switch

RE: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-09 Thread Mac Dearman
To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not) I really wish I had the type of cocmpetition you guys do. In the past couple years I have never seen a cable modem go below its advertised speed. I've seen many people pull over 25 megs. - Mike Hammett

Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-09 Thread Travis Johnson
Hi, We have DSL, Cable, licensed 2.5ghz wireless providers and several other WISP's in our areas. We are the most expensive out of all of them (512k = $39.95 per month). However, we offer a real, static IP address for every customer. We offer a free firewall/wireless router during the

Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-09 Thread Eric Muehleisen
Here in Midwest Kansas the competition is surprisingly tough. The ATT's out there continue to escalate speeds and drop pricing...however, we continue to kill the competition with our local flavor of services. People here in the rural settings tend to buy into the we are the local guys more

Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-09 Thread Sam Tetherow
Mike Delp wrote: We have over 2500 wireless clients, and we are in direct competition with Cable and DSL. We have customers switch over to our higher priced lower limits every day because we can provide SERVICE that the cable/telcos can't provide. We average 85 install per month, and we don't

Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-09 Thread Sam Tetherow
Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, We have DSL, Cable, licensed 2.5ghz wireless providers and several other WISP's in our areas. We are the most expensive out of all of them (512k = $39.95 per month). However, we offer a real, static IP address for every customer. We offer a free firewall/wireless

Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-09 Thread Forrest W. Christian
Sam Tetherow wrote: I honestly think in the long run as WISPs we need to find a way to handle these types of users. We have transfer caps in our agreements which are more than anyone would use unless they are P2P users - more specifically, the pricing includes a certain amount of transfer, and

Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-09 Thread Travis Johnson
Hi, During business hours (7:00AM to 5:30PM) we throttle p2p traffic on our entire backbone to 5meg up, 5meg down. Outside of those hours, we let everyone run wide open with whatever speed they purchase. In fact, we have a guy that purchased a dedicated point to point 2.5meg connection from

Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-09 Thread Sam Tetherow
Forrest W. Christian wrote: Sam Tetherow wrote: I honestly think in the long run as WISPs we need to find a way to handle these types of users. We have transfer caps in our agreements which are more than anyone would use unless they are P2P users - more specifically, the pricing includes a

Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-09 Thread Sam Tetherow
That's pretty good pricing considering you charge $80/meg on a standard account and he is getting $100/meg on a dedicated connection. I suppose it is pretty economical if you get him to cover the equipment costs on both ends and you are getting your BW at a reasonable price less than that.

Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-09 Thread Forrest W. Christian
Sam Tetherow wrote: As ISPs in general I think we are going to have to be able to provide for this type of traffic. P2P is not all illegal movies. If we want to be providers for our community we need to be able to provide for the bandwidth hungry applications as well. I want to be clear...