Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-11 Thread Forrest W. Christian

Clint Ricker wrote:

Not to be overly provocative here, but why are you paying $60/meg?
I'd be more than happy to pay less.   Please let me know where I can buy 
a DS3 or OC3 delivered somewhere within my footprint or at most only a 
couple of radio hops away for less than the $50-75 I'm paying now (right 
now I have two full DS3's - one is around $50/meg and the other is 
around $75/meg).


If you're domain is correctly registered, you're ~50 miles from 
Atlanta.   I'm ~400-600  miles from Salt Lake City, Seattle, or  Denver 
- take your pick.   I'm *lucky* to get it at $50/meg.   If I was paying 
loop, it would be more.  


-forrest


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Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-11 Thread Matt Liotta

Forrest W. Christian wrote:

Clint Ricker wrote:

Not to be overly provocative here, but why are you paying $60/meg?
I'd be more than happy to pay less.   Please let me know where I can buy 
a DS3 or OC3 delivered somewhere within my footprint or at most only a 
couple of radio hops away for less than the $50-75 I'm paying now (right 
now I have two full DS3's - one is around $50/meg and the other is 
around $75/meg).


If you're domain is correctly registered, you're ~50 miles from 
Atlanta.   I'm ~400-600  miles from Salt Lake City, Seattle, or  Denver 
- take your pick.   I'm *lucky* to get it at $50/meg.   If I was paying 
loop, it would be more. 

Montana is tough and you probably know you already have the best deal 
going from a traditional approach. I don't know if a non-traditional 
approach would work either, but here is an idea anyway.


You are correct that doing radio hops to the closest major market is a 
good way to go, but in your case the mileage is just too high. How far 
away are you from Microserve, which is in Idaho. I believe they serve 
Boise, which probably has cheaper bandwidth. Is it feasible to backhaul 
your network to theirs? In areas with mountains like yours you can go a 
long way with 5.8/6Ghz.


-Matt


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Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-11 Thread Clint Ricker
I realize ideas like this aren't a one-size fits all.  Geography,
topography, and so forth sometimes makes this uneconomical.

I will say, though, that usually independent ISPs (non-Wisps) that
have gone down this route, whether for server aggregation, bandwidth
aggregation, DSL aggregation, helpdesk aggregation, or whatever
usually are happy with the results as it often makes a marginal
business case viable.

There are other advantages as well to working aggressively with each
other and peering with each other.  Most of the ones above are
cost-saving measures, which I'm not always a fan off--independent ISPs
sometimes are too fanatacal about cutting costs and not fanatacal
enough about growth...

Still, there are other advantages.  As some/most of you know (and
already do this sort of thing), your most profitable and best
businesses are usually more established businesses with multiple
locations.  A lot of you are limited by aggressively targetting these
businesses because you have a limited geographical area...and most of
these business prefer having a single vendor for this sort of stuff.
The more you make deals with each other in terms of being able to go
between the networks, the more you can do this sort of thing.

In aggregate, Independent ISPs have quite an impressive footprint, and
can offer an on-net (as a whole) offering to larger business clients
that is rivals many of the national guys.

-Clint Ricker
Kentnis Technologies






On 9/11/07, Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Forrest W. Christian wrote:
  Clint Ricker wrote:
  Not to be overly provocative here, but why are you paying $60/meg?
  I'd be more than happy to pay less.   Please let me know where I can buy
  a DS3 or OC3 delivered somewhere within my footprint or at most only a
  couple of radio hops away for less than the $50-75 I'm paying now (right
  now I have two full DS3's - one is around $50/meg and the other is
  around $75/meg).
 
  If you're domain is correctly registered, you're ~50 miles from
  Atlanta.   I'm ~400-600  miles from Salt Lake City, Seattle, or  Denver
  - take your pick.   I'm *lucky* to get it at $50/meg.   If I was paying
  loop, it would be more.
 
 Montana is tough and you probably know you already have the best deal
 going from a traditional approach. I don't know if a non-traditional
 approach would work either, but here is an idea anyway.

 You are correct that doing radio hops to the closest major market is a
 good way to go, but in your case the mileage is just too high. How far
 away are you from Microserve, which is in Idaho. I believe they serve
 Boise, which probably has cheaper bandwidth. Is it feasible to backhaul
 your network to theirs? In areas with mountains like yours you can go a
 long way with 5.8/6Ghz.

 -Matt
 

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Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-11 Thread Forrest W. Christian

Matt Liotta wrote:
You are correct that doing radio hops to the closest major market is a 
good way to go, but in your case the mileage is just too high. How far 
away are you from Microserve, which is in Idaho. I believe they serve 
Boise, which probably has cheaper bandwidth.
Knowing what I know about the territory out here is that when Microserv 
said (paraphrasing) 200 miles is the cheap bandwidth, they probably 
mean Salt Lake City.   It's 200 miles from us to him, and just guessing, 
there would probably be around 8-10 hops to get to him, if we got the 
*right* sites.  At easily $200/month per site - since these are prime 
sites, this adds $2K of backhaul just go get to Idaho Falls.  Then you 
have to add the 10 hops @20K/hop worth of radios (200K), and pay for 
them over 36 months (~6K/month), so doing this you end up paying 
8K/month for loop, which on a OC3 would equate to $51/meg of loop 
costs.   That's more than I'm paying for bits delivered *here*.


The point I was making is that $20/meg isn't available to everyone.   
Loops are still the expensive part of the whole thing.  $50-75 seems to 
be the sweet spot for modestly populated rural areas, whether that's 
Helena, MT, or Idaho Falls, ID, or Florence, OR.   And I would venture 
that you *should* be able to find $75/meg bandwidth within a couple of 
radio hops from about anywhere in the country (note I said *about*).  


-forrest


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Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-11 Thread Mike Hammett
Actually, Forrest is in a great position.  He's getting his service from 360 
Networks and Global Crossing, both of which have POPs in his coverage area.


For further cost savings, ideas include (for everyone, really):
Becoming a CLEC to save on the loops
Building your wireless network to their POP facility to haul Ethernet (or 
TDM if you must) back to your network


If their POP is in the ILEC CO, then you'll have to investigate if becoming 
a CLEC and putting up antenna is possible.


There are many ways to save on the IP pricing, including the many switchless 
resellers.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 7:30 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)



Forrest W. Christian wrote:

Clint Ricker wrote:

Not to be overly provocative here, but why are you paying $60/meg?
I'd be more than happy to pay less.   Please let me know where I can buy 
a DS3 or OC3 delivered somewhere within my footprint or at most only a 
couple of radio hops away for less than the $50-75 I'm paying now (right 
now I have two full DS3's - one is around $50/meg and the other is around 
$75/meg).


If you're domain is correctly registered, you're ~50 miles from Atlanta. 
I'm ~400-600  miles from Salt Lake City, Seattle, or  Denver - take your 
pick.   I'm *lucky* to get it at $50/meg.   If I was paying loop, it 
would be more.
Montana is tough and you probably know you already have the best deal 
going from a traditional approach. I don't know if a non-traditional 
approach would work either, but here is an idea anyway.


You are correct that doing radio hops to the closest major market is a 
good way to go, but in your case the mileage is just too high. How far 
away are you from Microserve, which is in Idaho. I believe they serve 
Boise, which probably has cheaper bandwidth. Is it feasible to backhaul 
your network to theirs? In areas with mountains like yours you can go a 
long way with 5.8/6Ghz.


-Matt


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Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-11 Thread Matt Liotta

Forrest W. Christian wrote:
Knowing what I know about the territory out here is that when Microserv 
said (paraphrasing) 200 miles is the cheap bandwidth, they probably 
mean Salt Lake City.   It's 200 miles from us to him, and just guessing, 
there would probably be around 8-10 hops to get to him, if we got the 
*right* sites.  At easily $200/month per site - since these are prime 
sites, this adds $2K of backhaul just go get to Idaho Falls.  Then you 
have to add the 10 hops @20K/hop worth of radios (200K), and pay for 
them over 36 months (~6K/month), so doing this you end up paying 
8K/month for loop, which on a OC3 would equate to $51/meg of loop 
costs.   That's more than I'm paying for bits delivered *here*.


I don't know the area, but 8-10 hops sounds high to me as that is only 
20-25 miles a hop. Regardless, your ~6K/month figure would go away after 
3 years using your numbers dropping your total outlay to 2k/month 
getting you to $13/meg. Essentially, the difference between buying and 
renting. Additionally, you may be able to use those additional sites to 
expand your market.


Again, Montana is tough; I was just using you as example for others who 
aren't in such a tough position.


-Matt


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Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-11 Thread Clint Ricker
Not to mention that you can possibly use these intermediate hops as
pops for future expansion


On 9/11/07, Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Forrest W. Christian wrote:
  Knowing what I know about the territory out here is that when Microserv
  said (paraphrasing) 200 miles is the cheap bandwidth, they probably
  mean Salt Lake City.   It's 200 miles from us to him, and just guessing,
  there would probably be around 8-10 hops to get to him, if we got the
  *right* sites.  At easily $200/month per site - since these are prime
  sites, this adds $2K of backhaul just go get to Idaho Falls.  Then you
  have to add the 10 hops @20K/hop worth of radios (200K), and pay for
  them over 36 months (~6K/month), so doing this you end up paying
  8K/month for loop, which on a OC3 would equate to $51/meg of loop
  costs.   That's more than I'm paying for bits delivered *here*.
 
 I don't know the area, but 8-10 hops sounds high to me as that is only
 20-25 miles a hop. Regardless, your ~6K/month figure would go away after
 3 years using your numbers dropping your total outlay to 2k/month
 getting you to $13/meg. Essentially, the difference between buying and
 renting. Additionally, you may be able to use those additional sites to
 expand your market.

 Again, Montana is tough; I was just using you as example for others who
 aren't in such a tough position.

 -Matt
 

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Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-11 Thread Forrest W. Christian

Clint Ricker wrote:

Not to mention that you can possibly use these intermediate hops as
pops for future expansion
  
Not these hops...  Generally, they are on the tops of hills that can't 
see anything other than the next hill.


The other point I failed to mention, is that I suspect that I won't 
*just* have to go to Idaho Falls  I would suspect that the cheapest 
bandwidth I can buy in Idaho Falls isn't much cheaper than I am buying here.


-forrest



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Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-11 Thread Forrest W. Christian

Matt Liotta wrote:
I don't know the area, but 8-10 hops sounds high to me as that is only 
20-25 miles a hop.
Last I checked, 20-25 miles/hop is about as far as you can go to drag 
OC3 level service in a reliable fashion, other than maybe using very 
huge dishes on 6Ghz.   I would have to do the link math.
Regardless, your ~6K/month figure would go away after 3 years using 
your numbers dropping your total outlay to 2k/month getting you to 
$13/meg. 
Nope, after 3 years, you get to replace the equipment since either you 
need more bandwidth or something else has changed. :( 

I think I mentioned this in my other reply...   200 miles is how far I 
have to go to to be able to share with another largish provider (which 
was suggested by another person on the list) which may be able to 
combine with to get a bulk purchase.  I expect the cheapest I could buy 
in Idaho Falls would be on par with what I can get here...   I suspect 
there's another 200 mile link to get to the $20/meg bandwidth.


The other piece of this is logistics...  This path crosses the 
continental divide once, and gets close at least 2 other times (not 
technically across the divide but on the ridgeline which is the 
divide).  I don't like to drive on the *Intererstate* for about 4 (or 
more) months out of the year down this path...  I can only imagine 
trying to maintain this link.   4 Hours of interstate driving in good 
weather from end-to-end.  *Then* you get to figure out how to get to 
some of these sites.  No thank you.


The real point of this was to refute the suggestion was that I could 
somehow magically join up with others to get a bulk purchase going and 
get my price down to $20/meg.   I've actually priced bandwidth out to 
the OC-12 pricing here in the local area with either Global Crossing, or 
360 Networks, and am currently working on pricing with Sprint if I drag 
fiber to their switch facility here in town.  Believe me, it isn't 
$20/meg even at the OC-12 level.   The transport costs something, and 
these providers have to include that cost in their pricing. 

There are two things that amaze me:  1) Providers in or near the big 
cities which assume that everyone can get bandwidth for $20/meg or less 
if they just buy enough, since that is the economics there so it must be 
everywhere and 2) Small providers which are paying $5-600/T1 (with a 
half-dozen T's) when they could add a site or two to get over the hill 
to the largest nearby town where bandwidth is under $100/meg. 

This is all a game of where can you get the bandwidth at a given cost 
and how much will it cost to get it to you.  Not everyone can find 
$20/meg bandwith.   I've noticed that there are 3 main tiers today...  
$20/meg in the biggest of cities where there is one or more major 
peering points/exchanges and where almost every provider has a 
presence,  $50-75/meg in most cities with a population of the metro bowl 
of around 50K and larger, and $600/T1 in the rest of the US.  There is 
also the fourth tier which is where there is a independent ILEC who 
wants to screw you for all it is worth since you are the competition, 
which I won't even venture into.If you live in the $600/T1 tier, you 
should be thinking about where the $50-75/meg (or $20/meg) bandwidth is  
and how to get there, and how much it will cost.  This goes equally well 
for people in my category where we are paying $50-75/meg for 
bandwidth.   Yes, smallish ISP's should be looking at friendly neighbors 
to leverage paths and/or purchasing power.  And, you shouldn't restrict 
yourself to wireless technologies... sometimes you can find a source for 
a PtP or frame relay/ATM DS3 to the larger cities for a screaming 
deal.   But, either making the assumption that $75/meg isn't a good 
price for a given WISP, or that $600/T1 is the best that you can do 
since that is the cheapest you can find it delivered (without 
investigating the options) both require some re-thinking.


-forrest


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Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-10 Thread Clint Ricker
I agree with Rick and Mike...the basic model of providing marginal
speeds (less than 2 Mb/s) at above market prcies is unsustainable over
the next few years.

I'm not a WISP (I do a lot of consulting for various service
providers--telcos, MSOs, independent ISPs of all sorts).  It works in
ultra rural where there isn't much competition.  It also works in
areas where the WISP is really well executed and the competition can't
do basics (like deliver bandwidth).  It also works by targetting
niche markets of various sorts.

Still, I do worry about the lot of you who are providing single play
or dual play access on a broad residential basis over the next few
years...

Just a few notes (industry observations, not necessarily relevent to
specific providers)...
1. The days of cable promising 10Mb/s and delivering 80Kb/s are pretty
much over...most of the major MSOs (Cox/Comcast/TW) have gotten MUCH
smarter about this and about their networks and, contrary to various
misunderstandings about the nature of the shared cable network
topology, there is inherently nothing that prevents the technology
from delivering 10Mb/s or more to their customers.  BTW, that was
DOCSIS 2.0; 3.0 is coming down the pipe and delivering 100Mb/s...

2. I used to be heavily involved in an Independent ISP for several
years, up until last year.  About 5-10 years ago, the independents had
better service, better customer service, and, all around, a better
value.  I don't think that's true anymore.  The large guys have gotten
MUCH better and have productized their service to the point of it
being a simple, straightforward, relatively high quality commodity
while a lot of the independents have not really evolved around
delivering a simple, dumb pipe with limited capacity and (the major
problem) have not really improved business practices or workflows.
Most independetnts are (more or less) running the same business in
2007 as in 2002...

I think most of the independents got so in the habit of talking about
how stupid Bell was that they didn't notice that Bell started getting
its act together and clobbering them...your competition may be dumb
now, but that may not always be the case.

3. Right now, typical usage is below 1Mb/s.  (In other words, for most
customers, less than 1 Mb/s is sufficient given typical usage and
current Internet applications).  However, customers don't necessarily
understand that 10Mb/s is not necessarily 10x as good as 1Mb/sLook
at the low uptake on the muniFi market...

4. Again typical usage is currently below 1Mb/s.  That WILL
change...many countries have 100Mb/s or more already; the US will be
there over the next few years as well.  The applications will evolve
once there is a sufficient end-user markert that has connections that
can use 100Mb/s.  Think of the evolution from dialup to broadband; the
same thing will happen over the next 2-4 years.

5. (This is my main concern for WISPs).  A lot of you guys are trying
to compete in the residential (ie under $50/month) market providing
just Internet access.  This means that you are competing against
providers who are able to offset the capital cost of providing the
connection over multiple service (data, voice, video).  In the end, I
don't think it is sustainable to competitively build networks with an
ARPU of $40/month against competitors who get 2.5x-4x (100-150 ARPU)
that amount.

Just a few observations...I think the answer lies in
1. Reinvesting in more robust networks
2. Targetting niche markets--ie going after $200/month SMB customers
instead of $40 a month residential, targetting various schools, muni
needs, etc...
3. Bundling services--use the same pipe for more services
4. Don't even mention bandwidth in your advertising; market to your
strengths, not your weaknesses...

-Clint Ricker
Kentnis Technologies





On 9/10/07, Forrest W. Christian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Sam Tetherow wrote:
  As ISPs in general I think we are going to have to be able to provide
  for this type of traffic.  P2P is not all illegal movies.  If we want
  to be providers for our community we need to be able to provide for
  the bandwidth hungry applications as well.
 I want to be clear... The limits I was talking about are in the tens of
 GByte/month range.  2Mb/s continous for days.  I don't care whether it's
 P2P or a Web Server, or 100 Audio streams or Open Source .iso's being
 shared by Bittorrent.   The Residential service  we provide for
 $55/month is supposed to be intermittent, not 2Mb/s continuous.   If
 someone wants 2Mb/s continous I'm more than happy to charge them
 $250/month for it.  A typical customer on the $55/month service can
 download 2-3 full length, DVD quality, no additional compression movies
 without me even blinking an eye.   Start sucking (or pushing) 2Mb/s
 continuous, then I get a little irritated.

 To me, the loss of a 2Mb/s continous customer is actually a good thing.
   2Mb/s continuous is almost impossible to provide at $55/month in my
 neck of the 

installers (was Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not))

2007-09-10 Thread Matt Liotta

Travis Johnson wrote:
And, right now, we have more business than we can keep up with. We did 
114 installs last month and could have done 140+ if we could find 
installers to hire.


While we don't do residential and therefore don't share the same 
concerns mentioned in this thread, the amount of customers we can 
install each month is limited by our installers; not sales. Has anyone 
figured out the magic in getting more installers? From our perspective, 
getting competent installers takes a significant amount of training time 
on what amounts to non-skill based work.


-Matt


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Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-10 Thread Sam Tetherow
Forrest, I didn't mean to be offensive in my email, or imply that you 
are doing anything bad with your billing/usage model.  I was just 
stating my opinion concerning the increased usage of bandwidth by 
customers and the WISP industry in general.


I'm pretty sure that everyone agrees that bandwidth usage will always go 
up, just like processor speed and memory requirements and we as an 
industry need to be ready to deal with it.  The telcos and the cable 
providers seem to be doing a better job of it right now mostly because 
the medium that they have supports better upload speeds that most WISP 
infrastructure can.


While we would all like to have customers that pay for our fastest 
packages so they can check their email at blazingly fast speeds the 
reality is that just like any over subscription model, we subsidize the 
higher end users with the lower end users. 

All I'm saying is that we are going to see the lower end users raising 
the bar with uploads to youtube, flickr, jumpcut and other sites that 
require larger uploading.  And as the users age, the p2p kiddies of 
today become the customers of tomorrow and while they may not be as 
interested in downloading every episode of south park any more they are 
growing up in a culture that expects more bandwidth.


   Sam Tetherow
   Sandhills Wireless

Forrest W. Christian wrote:

Sam Tetherow wrote:
As ISPs in general I think we are going to have to be able to provide 
for this type of traffic.  P2P is not all illegal movies.  If we want 
to be providers for our community we need to be able to provide for 
the bandwidth hungry applications as well.
I want to be clear... The limits I was talking about are in the tens 
of GByte/month range.  2Mb/s continous for days.  I don't care whether 
it's P2P or a Web Server, or 100 Audio streams or Open Source .iso's 
being shared by Bittorrent.   The Residential service  we provide for 
$55/month is supposed to be intermittent, not 2Mb/s continuous.   If 
someone wants 2Mb/s continous I'm more than happy to charge them 
$250/month for it.  A typical customer on the $55/month service can 
download 2-3 full length, DVD quality, no additional compression 
movies without me even blinking an eye.   Start sucking (or pushing) 
2Mb/s continuous, then I get a little irritated.


To me, the loss of a 2Mb/s continous customer is actually a good 
thing.  2Mb/s continuous is almost impossible to provide at $55/month 
in my neck of the woods.  Any provider he goes to is going to cost 
them more money than they are charging them.  How much are *you* 
paying for your upstream?


-forrest




 



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Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-10 Thread Forrest W Christian

Sam Tetherow wrote:
Forrest, I didn't mean to be offensive in my email, or imply that you 
are doing anything bad with your billing/usage model.  I was just 
stating my opinion concerning the increased usage of bandwidth by 
customers and the WISP industry in general.
If I came accross defensive, I apologize..  That wasn't my intent.  I 
just wanted to clarify that, in general, we're trying to rid ourselves 
of exactly the same people that the cable companies are ridding 
themselves of - those which expect a full bore pipe for less than it 
costs us to purchase the bandwidth.
I'm pretty sure that everyone agrees that bandwidth usage will always 
go up, just like processor speed and memory requirements and we as an 
industry need to be ready to deal with it.  The telcos and the cable 
providers seem to be doing a better job of it right now mostly because 
the medium that they have supports better upload speeds that most WISP 
infrastructure can.
We provide symmetrical service to our customers.   2Mb/s down and up...  
show me a typical Cable or DSL provider who can do that.  In fact, most 
cable plants are severely limited in the upload direction just because 
of how the return path is configured (it all lives below channel 2).


-forrest


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Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-10 Thread Clint Ricker
 We provide symmetrical service to our customers.   2Mb/s down and up...
 show me a typical Cable or DSL provider who can do that.  In fact, most
 cable plants are severely limited in the upload direction just because
 of how the return path is configured (it all lives below channel 2).

You can on cable, but it is much costlier in terms of equipment and
bandwidth usage (but is done for some business class connections over
HFC).

Still, for a residential customer, does it really matter?  Personally,
I'd take a 1Mb/s symetrical over a 10Mb/s down, 384Kb/s up, but I'm
quite atypical on my network usage.  For most customers, asymetrical
is perfectly fine, especially for residential...


-Clint Ricker
Kentnis Technologies


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Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-10 Thread George Rogato

Forrest W Christian wrote:

we're trying to rid ourselves of exactly the same people that the cable 
companies are ridding
themselves of - those which expect a full bore pipe for less than it 
costs us to purchase the bandwidth.


I just had a guy who wanted to sign up but wanted to define what speeds 
I was going to give him and what exactly he was expecting.

He said, when I buy a 3 meg connection I expect 3 megs all the time.

I asked him if he thought 3 megs all the time meant that when he hit the 
speed test button, that it was going to come back every single time at 3 
megs or if he meant 3megs all-the-time constantly consuming bandwidth at 
3megs a second.


He chose 3megs all-the-time constantly consuming bandwidth at 3megs a 
second.


And he wanted a public ip address and no ports blocked.

So I asked him if he thought it was feasible for me to buy bandwidth at 
$60+ per meg on a dedicated internet connection and then sell him 3x $60 
for $40.00 per month and then to boot buy him a public ip and configure 
my routers to his specification.


How long will I stay in business doing that.

We argued a bit about bit caps and consumer broadband connection verses 
dedicated business class connectivity. I kept my cool and was even keel, 
the guy was getting pissed and disagreeing the deeper I got into 
explaining what I was going to be providing and he was going to be 
buying. Finally I sent him on his way to google and told him he should 
search out comcast and bit caps and give me a call back when he thinks 
he can operate on my network with my terms of service.


The guy called back, apologized and explained he misunderstood and and 
he expected to pay what he should be paying and would give me a call 
back when he was ready.


I hooked him up a couple weeks ago and we're both happy.

He knows the rules. He even offered to pay more for his public ip. I 
didn't and generally don't charge extra for ip addresses. And he knows 
to be reasonable about usage.
Heck I could care less if he used 50 gigs every now and then, but not 
all-the-time


Now how to explain it to the rest of the market place is going to be the 
hard thing.


George


** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
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Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-10 Thread Clint Ricker
Not to be overly provocative here, but why are you paying $60/meg?

You're a trade organization...make deals with each other, share your
upstream peers, buy in bulk, and get your $60/meg to $30/meg, $20/meg,
or even lower...

-Clint Ricker
Kentnis Technologies


On 9/10/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Forrest W Christian wrote:

 we're trying to rid ourselves of exactly the same people that the cable
 companies are ridding
  themselves of - those which expect a full bore pipe for less than it
  costs us to purchase the bandwidth.

 I just had a guy who wanted to sign up but wanted to define what speeds
 I was going to give him and what exactly he was expecting.
 He said, when I buy a 3 meg connection I expect 3 megs all the time.

 I asked him if he thought 3 megs all the time meant that when he hit the
 speed test button, that it was going to come back every single time at 3
 megs or if he meant 3megs all-the-time constantly consuming bandwidth at
 3megs a second.

 He chose 3megs all-the-time constantly consuming bandwidth at 3megs a
 second.

 And he wanted a public ip address and no ports blocked.

 So I asked him if he thought it was feasible for me to buy bandwidth at
 $60+ per meg on a dedicated internet connection and then sell him 3x $60
 for $40.00 per month and then to boot buy him a public ip and configure
 my routers to his specification.

 How long will I stay in business doing that.

 We argued a bit about bit caps and consumer broadband connection verses
 dedicated business class connectivity. I kept my cool and was even keel,
 the guy was getting pissed and disagreeing the deeper I got into
 explaining what I was going to be providing and he was going to be
 buying. Finally I sent him on his way to google and told him he should
 search out comcast and bit caps and give me a call back when he thinks
 he can operate on my network with my terms of service.

 The guy called back, apologized and explained he misunderstood and and
 he expected to pay what he should be paying and would give me a call
 back when he was ready.

 I hooked him up a couple weeks ago and we're both happy.

 He knows the rules. He even offered to pay more for his public ip. I
 didn't and generally don't charge extra for ip addresses. And he knows
 to be reasonable about usage.
 Heck I could care less if he used 50 gigs every now and then, but not
 all-the-time

 Now how to explain it to the rest of the market place is going to be the
 hard thing.

 George
 

 ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at 
 ISPCON **
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 ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
 ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
 ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
 http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **

 
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Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-10 Thread Mike Hammett

I'm paying $150, but I only have 1.  ;-)

Getting together on purchases of things never really seems to get anywhere.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: Clint Ricker [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)



Not to be overly provocative here, but why are you paying $60/meg?

You're a trade organization...make deals with each other, share your
upstream peers, buy in bulk, and get your $60/meg to $30/meg, $20/meg,
or even lower...

-Clint Ricker
Kentnis Technologies


On 9/10/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Forrest W Christian wrote:

we're trying to rid ourselves of exactly the same people that the cable
companies are ridding
 themselves of - those which expect a full bore pipe for less than it
 costs us to purchase the bandwidth.

I just had a guy who wanted to sign up but wanted to define what speeds
I was going to give him and what exactly he was expecting.
He said, when I buy a 3 meg connection I expect 3 megs all the time.

I asked him if he thought 3 megs all the time meant that when he hit the
speed test button, that it was going to come back every single time at 3
megs or if he meant 3megs all-the-time constantly consuming bandwidth at
3megs a second.

He chose 3megs all-the-time constantly consuming bandwidth at 3megs a
second.

And he wanted a public ip address and no ports blocked.

So I asked him if he thought it was feasible for me to buy bandwidth at
$60+ per meg on a dedicated internet connection and then sell him 3x $60
for $40.00 per month and then to boot buy him a public ip and configure
my routers to his specification.

How long will I stay in business doing that.

We argued a bit about bit caps and consumer broadband connection verses
dedicated business class connectivity. I kept my cool and was even keel,
the guy was getting pissed and disagreeing the deeper I got into
explaining what I was going to be providing and he was going to be
buying. Finally I sent him on his way to google and told him he should
search out comcast and bit caps and give me a call back when he thinks
he can operate on my network with my terms of service.

The guy called back, apologized and explained he misunderstood and and
he expected to pay what he should be paying and would give me a call
back when he was ready.

I hooked him up a couple weeks ago and we're both happy.

He knows the rules. He even offered to pay more for his public ip. I
didn't and generally don't charge extra for ip addresses. And he knows
to be reasonable about usage.
Heck I could care less if he used 50 gigs every now and then, but not
all-the-time

Now how to explain it to the rest of the market place is going to be the
hard thing.

George


** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at 
ISPCON **

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** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
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Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-10 Thread Matt Liotta

Mike Hammett wrote:

I'm paying $150, but I only have 1.  ;-)

Getting together on purchases of things never really seems to get anywhere.

The reason one side has to be the vendor and the other side the 
customer. Nobody seems to want to be the customer of their peer.


-Matt


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Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-10 Thread Sam Tetherow
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm paying $85/meg but over half that 
cost is in transport which I can't do anything about.  And before you 
tell me to bring it in wirelessly I suggest you do a google map on 
Valentine Nebraska ;)  The last time I checked I was significantly 
cheaper than anywhere within 250 miles.


   Sam Tetherow
   Sandhills Wireless

Clint Ricker wrote:

Not to be overly provocative here, but why are you paying $60/meg?

You're a trade organization...make deals with each other, share your
upstream peers, buy in bulk, and get your $60/meg to $30/meg, $20/meg,
or even lower...

-Clint Ricker
Kentnis Technologies


On 9/10/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  

Forrest W Christian wrote:

we're trying to rid ourselves of exactly the same people that the cable
companies are ridding


themselves of - those which expect a full bore pipe for less than it
costs us to purchase the bandwidth.
  

I just had a guy who wanted to sign up but wanted to define what speeds
I was going to give him and what exactly he was expecting.
He said, when I buy a 3 meg connection I expect 3 megs all the time.

I asked him if he thought 3 megs all the time meant that when he hit the
speed test button, that it was going to come back every single time at 3
megs or if he meant 3megs all-the-time constantly consuming bandwidth at
3megs a second.

He chose 3megs all-the-time constantly consuming bandwidth at 3megs a
second.

And he wanted a public ip address and no ports blocked.

So I asked him if he thought it was feasible for me to buy bandwidth at
$60+ per meg on a dedicated internet connection and then sell him 3x $60
for $40.00 per month and then to boot buy him a public ip and configure
my routers to his specification.

How long will I stay in business doing that.

We argued a bit about bit caps and consumer broadband connection verses
dedicated business class connectivity. I kept my cool and was even keel,
the guy was getting pissed and disagreeing the deeper I got into
explaining what I was going to be providing and he was going to be
buying. Finally I sent him on his way to google and told him he should
search out comcast and bit caps and give me a call back when he thinks
he can operate on my network with my terms of service.

The guy called back, apologized and explained he misunderstood and and
he expected to pay what he should be paying and would give me a call
back when he was ready.

I hooked him up a couple weeks ago and we're both happy.

He knows the rules. He even offered to pay more for his public ip. I
didn't and generally don't charge extra for ip addresses. And he knows
to be reasonable about usage.
Heck I could care less if he used 50 gigs every now and then, but not
all-the-time

Now how to explain it to the rest of the market place is going to be the
hard thing.

George


** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **


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** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
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** 

Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-10 Thread Clint Ricker
Yeah...I know... been there, done that.

The cable companies and the bells compete with each other over
millions of dollars of business, and yet can somehow release
similtaneous FCC filings, press releases, position papers, and so
forth.

Most independents don't compete with each other, and yet can't work
out deals to reduce their overhead (some out there do this and do
this quite well)

Matt's post about no one wanting to be the customer is right on as
to the reason...but it's a shame.  There are some that do this and
save thousands or more a monthPride can be expensive...

just a thought.


On 9/10/07, Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I'm paying $150, but I only have 1.  ;-)

 Getting together on purchases of things never really seems to get anywhere.


 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com


 - Original Message -
 From: Clint Ricker [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 4:18 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)


  Not to be overly provocative here, but why are you paying $60/meg?
 
  You're a trade organization...make deals with each other, share your
  upstream peers, buy in bulk, and get your $60/meg to $30/meg, $20/meg,
  or even lower...
 
  -Clint Ricker
  Kentnis Technologies
 
 
  On 9/10/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Forrest W Christian wrote:
 
  we're trying to rid ourselves of exactly the same people that the cable
  companies are ridding
   themselves of - those which expect a full bore pipe for less than it
   costs us to purchase the bandwidth.
 
  I just had a guy who wanted to sign up but wanted to define what speeds
  I was going to give him and what exactly he was expecting.
  He said, when I buy a 3 meg connection I expect 3 megs all the time.
 
  I asked him if he thought 3 megs all the time meant that when he hit the
  speed test button, that it was going to come back every single time at 3
  megs or if he meant 3megs all-the-time constantly consuming bandwidth at
  3megs a second.
 
  He chose 3megs all-the-time constantly consuming bandwidth at 3megs a
  second.
 
  And he wanted a public ip address and no ports blocked.
 
  So I asked him if he thought it was feasible for me to buy bandwidth at
  $60+ per meg on a dedicated internet connection and then sell him 3x $60
  for $40.00 per month and then to boot buy him a public ip and configure
  my routers to his specification.
 
  How long will I stay in business doing that.
 
  We argued a bit about bit caps and consumer broadband connection verses
  dedicated business class connectivity. I kept my cool and was even keel,
  the guy was getting pissed and disagreeing the deeper I got into
  explaining what I was going to be providing and he was going to be
  buying. Finally I sent him on his way to google and told him he should
  search out comcast and bit caps and give me a call back when he thinks
  he can operate on my network with my terms of service.
 
  The guy called back, apologized and explained he misunderstood and and
  he expected to pay what he should be paying and would give me a call
  back when he was ready.
 
  I hooked him up a couple weeks ago and we're both happy.
 
  He knows the rules. He even offered to pay more for his public ip. I
  didn't and generally don't charge extra for ip addresses. And he knows
  to be reasonable about usage.
  Heck I could care less if he used 50 gigs every now and then, but not
  all-the-time
 
  Now how to explain it to the rest of the market place is going to be the
  hard thing.
 
  George
  
 
  ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
  ISPCON **
  ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
  ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
  ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
  ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
  http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **
 
  
  WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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  ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
  ISPCON **
  ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
  ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
  ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
  ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
  http://www.ispcon.com/register.php

Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-10 Thread Travis Johnson




That doesn't work really well because of the various WISPs around the
entire country. Our biggest expense isn't the actual bandwidth (that's
usually around $20/meg)... it's the cost of the transport from the
closest NOC. For us, that transport is at least 200 miles.

Travis
Microserv

Clint Ricker wrote:

  Not to be overly provocative here, but why are you paying $60/meg?

You're a trade organization...make deals with each other, share your
upstream peers, buy in bulk, and get your $60/meg to $30/meg, $20/meg,
or even lower...

-Clint Ricker
Kentnis Technologies


On 9/10/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  
Forrest W Christian wrote:

we're trying to rid ourselves of exactly the same people that the cable
companies are ridding


  themselves of - those which expect a full bore pipe for less than it
costs us to purchase the bandwidth.
  

I just had a guy who wanted to sign up but wanted to define what speeds
I was going to give him and what exactly he was expecting.
He said, when I buy a 3 meg connection I expect 3 megs all the time.

I asked him if he thought 3 megs all the time meant that when he hit the
speed test button, that it was going to come back every single time at 3
megs or if he meant 3megs all-the-time constantly consuming bandwidth at
3megs a second.

He chose 3megs all-the-time constantly consuming bandwidth at 3megs a
second.

And he wanted a public ip address and no ports blocked.

So I asked him if he thought it was feasible for me to buy bandwidth at
$60+ per meg on a dedicated internet connection and then sell him 3x $60
for $40.00 per month and then to boot buy him a public ip and configure
my routers to his specification.

How long will I stay in business doing that.

We argued a bit about bit caps and consumer broadband connection verses
dedicated business class connectivity. I kept my cool and was even keel,
the guy was getting pissed and disagreeing the deeper I got into
explaining what I was going to be providing and he was going to be
buying. Finally I sent him on his way to google and told him he should
search out comcast and bit caps and give me a call back when he thinks
he can operate on my network with my terms of service.

The guy called back, apologized and explained he misunderstood and and
he expected to pay what he should be paying and would give me a call
back when he was ready.

I hooked him up a couple weeks ago and we're both happy.

He knows the rules. He even offered to pay more for his public ip. I
didn't and generally don't charge extra for ip addresses. And he knows
to be reasonable about usage.
Heck I could care less if he used 50 gigs every now and then, but not
all-the-time

Now how to explain it to the rest of the market place is going to be the
hard thing.

George


** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON **
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** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
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Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-10 Thread George Rogato

Clint Ricker wrote:

Not to be overly provocative here, but why are you paying $60/meg?

You're a trade organization...make deals with each other, share your
upstream peers, buy in bulk, and get your $60/meg to $30/meg, $20/meg,
or even lower...

-Clint Ricker
Kentnis Technologies


Hmmm,

How much should I be paying?




** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **


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Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-09 Thread Mike Hammett
I've been saying this for a long time, but no one really cares to listen. 
They're all happy with 768kb service.


The only way I can see doing it now is if you can use 5 gig and are using 
DFS2 gear.  Mikrotik and StarOS are the only systems that can put enough 
throughput in the air to be able to offer 10 meg pipes in a PtMP 
environment.  Maybe WiMAX systems will have more throughput, maybe enough to 
make other bands usable.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: Smith, Rick [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 5:47 PM
Subject: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)


I've been looking through a LOT of wisp and supposed wisp websites
at service pricing / traffic levels.

Are you all NOT in competition areas where the iLECs are dishing out
5mbps/768kbps DSL everywhere you look ?

I am, and now combine that with Cable modems @ a MINIMUM of 10mbps down
and 2 mbps up.

All priced around $40 / month residentially.

HOW do we put up hardware, and what kind, that will compete at those
traffic levels ?

EASY to put up 1m/512 service - no one will use it tho.

R



** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at 
ISPCON **

** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **



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**
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
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RE: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-09 Thread Mike Delp
We have over 2500 wireless clients, and we are in direct competition with
Cable and DSL.  We have customers switch over to our higher priced lower
limits every day because we can provide SERVICE that the cable/telcos can't
provide.  We average 85 install per month, and we don't have any big
investors.  If we had an investor to finance the equipment costs, we could
do 150 installs per month.  

We receive an inquiry once in a while where the customer says why are you so
expensive, and we can tell them to talk to existing cable/DSL customers and
see if their service is so great.

We can connect to a neighbors open wireless router, and try a speed test on
his 10 meg cable connection during prime time, and see 80kbps that is a
small b, and then get 1.5 mbps on our wireless Access point on the roof next
door to his.  Cable Companies advertise 10 meg connections, but have a hard
time delivering in our area.  Maybe if your competition is just starting
out, and has the bandwidth to support their 10 meg connections, then you
could have issues until they saturate their infrastructure.

Our upstream is 200 Meg and we are averaging 25 meg constant usage, with a
lot of growth available.  2500 into 25 meg seems like an oversubscription,
but our plan is working.

We are not going to Lose.

Mike

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Smith, Rick
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 05:47
To: WISPA General List; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

I've been looking through a LOT of wisp and supposed wisp websites
at service pricing / traffic levels.

Are you all NOT in competition areas where the iLECs are dishing out
5mbps/768kbps DSL everywhere you look ?

I am, and now combine that with Cable modems @ a MINIMUM of 10mbps down
and 2 mbps up.

All priced around $40 / month residentially.

HOW do we put up hardware, and what kind, that will compete at those
traffic levels ?

EASY to put up 1m/512 service - no one will use it tho.

R




** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
ISPCON **
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

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No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.12/997 - Release Date: 9/9/2007
10:17
 



** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
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Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-09 Thread Mike Hammett
I really wish I had the type of cocmpetition you guys do.  In the past 
couple years I have never seen a cable modem go below its advertised speed. 
I've seen many people pull over 25 megs.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: Mike Delp [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 6:49 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)



We have over 2500 wireless clients, and we are in direct competition with
Cable and DSL.  We have customers switch over to our higher priced lower
limits every day because we can provide SERVICE that the cable/telcos 
can't

provide.  We average 85 install per month, and we don't have any big
investors.  If we had an investor to finance the equipment costs, we could
do 150 installs per month.

We receive an inquiry once in a while where the customer says why are you 
so
expensive, and we can tell them to talk to existing cable/DSL customers 
and

see if their service is so great.

We can connect to a neighbors open wireless router, and try a speed test 
on

his 10 meg cable connection during prime time, and see 80kbps that is a
small b, and then get 1.5 mbps on our wireless Access point on the roof 
next
door to his.  Cable Companies advertise 10 meg connections, but have a 
hard

time delivering in our area.  Maybe if your competition is just starting
out, and has the bandwidth to support their 10 meg connections, then you
could have issues until they saturate their infrastructure.

Our upstream is 200 Meg and we are averaging 25 meg constant usage, with a
lot of growth available.  2500 into 25 meg seems like an oversubscription,
but our plan is working.

We are not going to Lose.

Mike

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Smith, Rick
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 05:47
To: WISPA General List; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

I've been looking through a LOT of wisp and supposed wisp websites
at service pricing / traffic levels.

Are you all NOT in competition areas where the iLECs are dishing out
5mbps/768kbps DSL everywhere you look ?

I am, and now combine that with Cable modems @ a MINIMUM of 10mbps down
and 2 mbps up.

All priced around $40 / month residentially.

HOW do we put up hardware, and what kind, that will compete at those
traffic levels ?

EASY to put up 1m/512 service - no one will use it tho.

R




** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
ISPCON **
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/



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No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.12/997 - Release Date: 9/9/2007
10:17




** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at 
ISPCON **

** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
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** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
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RE: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-09 Thread Mac Dearman
Mike,

  I have to admit that we are in a retarded State to start with - Louisiana.
We do compete with DSL in area's, but the majority (like 95%) of the area we
offer internet access there is no other alternative - - short of another
WISP. The towns that we do offer our service in and there is DSL - - we
carry the majority of the towns businesses because of services after the
sale. We carry all the Gov't agencies, Sheriffs Depts., local police
agencies...etc because they can get a real person with some knowledge on the
phone -vs- some DA (dumb a**) from ATT that can't tell whether his shoes
are on the right feet or not much less trouble shoot connectivity issues.

  DSL does suck here and I am grateful for that. Comcast, Cox, Verizon and
the rest of the crew are nonexistent here due lack of population and I am
grateful for that too. Try to up sale your service and make a point to point
out that you give great service after the sale. Everyone is sick of the SOS
(same old stuff) from the Telco - - no service after the sale!

Mac




 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Mike Hammett
 Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 7:13 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)
 
 I really wish I had the type of cocmpetition you guys do.  In the past
 couple years I have never seen a cable modem go below its advertised
 speed.
 I've seen many people pull over 25 megs.
 
 
 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com
 
 
 - Original Message -
 From: Mike Delp [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 6:49 PM
 Subject: RE: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)
 
 
  We have over 2500 wireless clients, and we are in direct competition
 with
  Cable and DSL.  We have customers switch over to our higher priced
 lower
  limits every day because we can provide SERVICE that the cable/telcos
  can't
  provide.  We average 85 install per month, and we don't have any big
  investors.  If we had an investor to finance the equipment costs, we
 could
  do 150 installs per month.
 
  We receive an inquiry once in a while where the customer says why are
 you
  so
  expensive, and we can tell them to talk to existing cable/DSL
 customers
  and
  see if their service is so great.
 
  We can connect to a neighbors open wireless router, and try a speed
 test
  on
  his 10 meg cable connection during prime time, and see 80kbps that is
 a
  small b, and then get 1.5 mbps on our wireless Access point on the
 roof
  next
  door to his.  Cable Companies advertise 10 meg connections, but have
 a
  hard
  time delivering in our area.  Maybe if your competition is just
 starting
  out, and has the bandwidth to support their 10 meg connections, then
 you
  could have issues until they saturate their infrastructure.
 
  Our upstream is 200 Meg and we are averaging 25 meg constant usage,
 with a
  lot of growth available.  2500 into 25 meg seems like an
 oversubscription,
  but our plan is working.
 
  We are not going to Lose.
 
  Mike
 
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 On
  Behalf Of Smith, Rick
  Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 05:47
  To: WISPA General List; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Subject: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)
 
  I've been looking through a LOT of wisp and supposed wisp
 websites
  at service pricing / traffic levels.
 
  Are you all NOT in competition areas where the iLECs are dishing out
  5mbps/768kbps DSL everywhere you look ?
 
  I am, and now combine that with Cable modems @ a MINIMUM of 10mbps
 down
  and 2 mbps up.
 
  All priced around $40 / month residentially.
 
  HOW do we put up hardware, and what kind, that will compete at those
  traffic levels ?
 
  EASY to put up 1m/512 service - no one will use it tho.
 
  R
 
  -
 ---
  
 
  ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007
 at
  ISPCON **
  ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com
 **
  ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
  ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
  ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
  http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **
 
  -
 ---
  
  WISPA Wants You! Join today!
  http://signup.wispa.org/
  -
 ---
  
 
  WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
 
  Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
  http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
 
  Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
 
  No virus found in this outgoing message.
  Checked by AVG Free Edition.
  Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.12/997 - Release Date:
 9/9/2007
  10:17

Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-09 Thread Travis Johnson

Hi,

We have DSL, Cable, licensed 2.5ghz wireless providers and several other 
WISP's in our areas. We are the most expensive out of all of them (512k 
= $39.95 per month). However, we offer a real, static IP address for 
every customer. We offer a free firewall/wireless router during the 
install, and we have local support. We also guarantee our speed (If you 
buy 512k, you get 512k all the time, 24 hours per day). We also offer 
the same upload and download speed (If you buy 1meg, you get 1meg down 
AND 1meg up).


The other WISP in the area is selling 4meg down x 1meg up for $34.95 
(best effort speeds).
Licensed, take the indoor modem with you from work to home, etc. 
provider is doing 3meg for $29.95

Cable is $29.95 for up to 5 megs.
DSL is $29.95 for up to 7 megs.

And, right now, we have more business than we can keep up with. We did 
114 installs last month and could have done 140+ if we could find 
installers to hire.


Travis
Microserv

Smith, Rick wrote:

I've been looking through a LOT of wisp and supposed wisp websites
at service pricing / traffic levels.

Are you all NOT in competition areas where the iLECs are dishing out
5mbps/768kbps DSL everywhere you look ?

I am, and now combine that with Cable modems @ a MINIMUM of 10mbps down
and 2 mbps up.

All priced around $40 / month residentially.

HOW do we put up hardware, and what kind, that will compete at those
traffic levels ?

EASY to put up 1m/512 service - no one will use it tho.

R



** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **


WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org


Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/


  



** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
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Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-09 Thread Eric Muehleisen
Here in Midwest Kansas the competition is surprisingly tough. The ATT's 
out there continue to escalate speeds and drop pricing...however, we 
continue to kill the competition with our local flavor of services. 
People here in the rural settings tend to buy into the we are the local 
guys more then the metro areas I think. We typically put a face to our 
names unlike the please wait on hold Telco's. That's the good 'ol 
Midwest for ya...customers in your neck of the woods might not be that 
faithful.


-Eric

Smith, Rick wrote:

I've been looking through a LOT of wisp and supposed wisp websites
at service pricing / traffic levels.

Are you all NOT in competition areas where the iLECs are dishing out
5mbps/768kbps DSL everywhere you look ?

I am, and now combine that with Cable modems @ a MINIMUM of 10mbps down
and 2 mbps up.

All priced around $40 / month residentially.

HOW do we put up hardware, and what kind, that will compete at those
traffic levels ?

EASY to put up 1m/512 service - no one will use it tho.

R




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Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-09 Thread Sam Tetherow

Mike Delp wrote:

We have over 2500 wireless clients, and we are in direct competition with
Cable and DSL.  We have customers switch over to our higher priced lower
limits every day because we can provide SERVICE that the cable/telcos can't
provide.  We average 85 install per month, and we don't have any big
investors.  If we had an investor to finance the equipment costs, we could
do 150 installs per month.  


We receive an inquiry once in a while where the customer says why are you so
expensive, and we can tell them to talk to existing cable/DSL customers and
see if their service is so great.

We can connect to a neighbors open wireless router, and try a speed test on
his 10 meg cable connection during prime time, and see 80kbps that is a
small b, and then get 1.5 mbps on our wireless Access point on the roof next
door to his.  Cable Companies advertise 10 meg connections, but have a hard
time delivering in our area.  Maybe if your competition is just starting
out, and has the bandwidth to support their 10 meg connections, then you
could have issues until they saturate their infrastructure.

Our upstream is 200 Meg and we are averaging 25 meg constant usage, with a
lot of growth available.  2500 into 25 meg seems like an oversubscription,
but our plan is working.
  
With our 802.11b equipment that is pretty close to what we see (100 
customers/meg).  Although since we have starting pusing the 2M/512K 
service on 802.11a equipment we are finally starting to see that number 
rise.


   Sam Tetherow
   Sandhills Wireless


We are not going to Lose.

Mike

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Smith, Rick
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 05:47
To: WISPA General List; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

I've been looking through a LOT of wisp and supposed wisp websites
at service pricing / traffic levels.

Are you all NOT in competition areas where the iLECs are dishing out
5mbps/768kbps DSL everywhere you look ?

I am, and now combine that with Cable modems @ a MINIMUM of 10mbps down
and 2 mbps up.

All priced around $40 / month residentially.

HOW do we put up hardware, and what kind, that will compete at those
traffic levels ?

EASY to put up 1m/512 service - no one will use it tho.

R




** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
ISPCON **
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** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
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Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-09 Thread Sam Tetherow

Travis Johnson wrote:

Hi,

We have DSL, Cable, licensed 2.5ghz wireless providers and several 
other WISP's in our areas. We are the most expensive out of all of 
them (512k = $39.95 per month). However, we offer a real, static IP 
address for every customer. We offer a free firewall/wireless router 
during the install, and we have local support. We also guarantee our 
speed (If you buy 512k, you get 512k all the time, 24 hours per 
day). We also offer the same upload and download speed (If you buy 
1meg, you get 1meg down AND 1meg up).
Travis, out of curiosity do you have many p2p users?  If you do, do you 
do anything discourage it or stick to the you pay for 512k you get 512k?


I honestly think in the long run as WISPs we need to find a way to 
handle these types of users.


   Sam Tetherow
   Sandhills Wireless


The other WISP in the area is selling 4meg down x 1meg up for $34.95 
(best effort speeds).
Licensed, take the indoor modem with you from work to home, etc. 
provider is doing 3meg for $29.95

Cable is $29.95 for up to 5 megs.
DSL is $29.95 for up to 7 megs.

And, right now, we have more business than we can keep up with. We did 
114 installs last month and could have done 140+ if we could find 
installers to hire.


Travis
Microserv




** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
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** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
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Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-09 Thread Forrest W. Christian

Sam Tetherow wrote:
I honestly think in the long run as WISPs we need to find a way to 
handle these types of users.
We have transfer caps in our agreements which are more than anyone would 
use unless they are P2P users - more specifically, the pricing includes 
a certain amount of transfer, and if you go over it says we can bill 
you.  It also says that if we think you are going to go over, we can 
turn you off to prevent an overage bill.


Generally we'll turn a P2P user off and when they call we'll say we saw 
you were transferring a *lot* of data, probably P2P, and this will 
result in a large bill at the end of the month.   We've never had 
anyone take us up yet on this.  Often it's the teenager in the house and 
the parent doesn't know about what is going on.  Either way, the P2P 
user problem goes away.


We've had a couple of leeches (for lack of a better word) who are always 
behind on their bills and can't seem to break their P2P habit.  For 
those, we gladly turn them off and retrieve their equipment.


-forrest


** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
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Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-09 Thread Travis Johnson

Hi,

During business hours (7:00AM to 5:30PM) we throttle p2p traffic on our 
entire backbone to 5meg up, 5meg down. Outside of those hours, we let 
everyone run wide open with whatever speed they purchase.


In fact, we have a guy that purchased a dedicated point to point 2.5meg 
connection from us for his house for $250/month just for his p2p 
stuff. :)


Travis
Microserv

Sam Tetherow wrote:

Travis Johnson wrote:

Hi,

We have DSL, Cable, licensed 2.5ghz wireless providers and several 
other WISP's in our areas. We are the most expensive out of all of 
them (512k = $39.95 per month). However, we offer a real, static IP 
address for every customer. We offer a free firewall/wireless router 
during the install, and we have local support. We also guarantee our 
speed (If you buy 512k, you get 512k all the time, 24 hours per 
day). We also offer the same upload and download speed (If you buy 
1meg, you get 1meg down AND 1meg up).
Travis, out of curiosity do you have many p2p users?  If you do, do 
you do anything discourage it or stick to the you pay for 512k you get 
512k?


I honestly think in the long run as WISPs we need to find a way to 
handle these types of users.


   Sam Tetherow
   Sandhills Wireless


The other WISP in the area is selling 4meg down x 1meg up for $34.95 
(best effort speeds).
Licensed, take the indoor modem with you from work to home, etc. 
provider is doing 3meg for $29.95

Cable is $29.95 for up to 5 megs.
DSL is $29.95 for up to 7 megs.

And, right now, we have more business than we can keep up with. We 
did 114 installs last month and could have done 140+ if we could find 
installers to hire.


Travis
Microserv


 



** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 
at ISPCON **

** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **


 


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**
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
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Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-09 Thread Sam Tetherow

Forrest W. Christian wrote:

Sam Tetherow wrote:
I honestly think in the long run as WISPs we need to find a way to 
handle these types of users.
We have transfer caps in our agreements which are more than anyone 
would use unless they are P2P users - more specifically, the pricing 
includes a certain amount of transfer, and if you go over it says we 
can bill you.  It also says that if we think you are going to go over, 
we can turn you off to prevent an overage bill.


Generally we'll turn a P2P user off and when they call we'll say we 
saw you were transferring a *lot* of data, probably P2P, and this will 
result in a large bill at the end of the month.   We've never had 
anyone take us up yet on this.  Often it's the teenager in the house 
and the parent doesn't know about what is going on.  Either way, the 
P2P user problem goes away.
As ISPs in general I think we are going to have to be able to provide 
for this type of traffic.  P2P is not all illegal movies.  If we want to 
be providers for our community we need to be able to provide for the 
bandwidth hungry applications as well.


While telling the customer no or charging them extra on their bill may 
'solve' the problem today it will eventually just end up losing you 
customers as the service you provide slips behind the service that they  
want.


   Sam Tetherow
   Sandhills Wireless



We've had a couple of leeches (for lack of a better word) who are 
always behind on their bills and can't seem to break their P2P habit.  
For those, we gladly turn them off and retrieve their equipment.


-forrest
 



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** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **


 


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Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-09 Thread Sam Tetherow
That's pretty good pricing considering you charge $80/meg on a standard 
account and he is getting $100/meg on a dedicated connection.  I suppose 
it is pretty economical if you get him to cover the equipment costs on 
both ends and you are getting your BW at a reasonable price less than that.


I'll have to think about that as a solution for some of our heavier 
users, they might just go for it ;)


   Sam Tetherow
   Sandhills Wireless

Travis Johnson wrote:

Hi,

During business hours (7:00AM to 5:30PM) we throttle p2p traffic on 
our entire backbone to 5meg up, 5meg down. Outside of those hours, we 
let everyone run wide open with whatever speed they purchase.


In fact, we have a guy that purchased a dedicated point to point 
2.5meg connection from us for his house for $250/month just for 
his p2p stuff. :)


Travis
Microserv

Sam Tetherow wrote:

Travis Johnson wrote:

Hi,

We have DSL, Cable, licensed 2.5ghz wireless providers and several 
other WISP's in our areas. We are the most expensive out of all of 
them (512k = $39.95 per month). However, we offer a real, static IP 
address for every customer. We offer a free firewall/wireless router 
during the install, and we have local support. We also guarantee our 
speed (If you buy 512k, you get 512k all the time, 24 hours per 
day). We also offer the same upload and download speed (If you buy 
1meg, you get 1meg down AND 1meg up).
Travis, out of curiosity do you have many p2p users?  If you do, do 
you do anything discourage it or stick to the you pay for 512k you 
get 512k?


I honestly think in the long run as WISPs we need to find a way to 
handle these types of users.


   Sam Tetherow
   Sandhills Wireless


The other WISP in the area is selling 4meg down x 1meg up for $34.95 
(best effort speeds).
Licensed, take the indoor modem with you from work to home, etc. 
provider is doing 3meg for $29.95

Cable is $29.95 for up to 5 megs.
DSL is $29.95 for up to 7 megs.

And, right now, we have more business than we can keep up with. We 
did 114 installs last month and could have done 140+ if we could 
find installers to hire.


Travis
Microserv


 



** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 
at ISPCON **

** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **


 


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Re: [WISPA] You're all going to lose ( I hope not)

2007-09-09 Thread Forrest W. Christian

Sam Tetherow wrote:
As ISPs in general I think we are going to have to be able to provide 
for this type of traffic.  P2P is not all illegal movies.  If we want 
to be providers for our community we need to be able to provide for 
the bandwidth hungry applications as well.
I want to be clear... The limits I was talking about are in the tens of 
GByte/month range.  2Mb/s continous for days.  I don't care whether it's 
P2P or a Web Server, or 100 Audio streams or Open Source .iso's being 
shared by Bittorrent.   The Residential service  we provide for 
$55/month is supposed to be intermittent, not 2Mb/s continuous.   If 
someone wants 2Mb/s continous I'm more than happy to charge them 
$250/month for it.  A typical customer on the $55/month service can 
download 2-3 full length, DVD quality, no additional compression movies 
without me even blinking an eye.   Start sucking (or pushing) 2Mb/s 
continuous, then I get a little irritated.


To me, the loss of a 2Mb/s continous customer is actually a good thing. 
 2Mb/s continuous is almost impossible to provide at $55/month in my 
neck of the woods.  Any provider he goes to is going to cost them more 
money than they are charging them.  How much are *you* paying for your 
upstream?


-forrest






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