Re: [WISPA] frequency converters

2008-09-10 Thread Blair Davis




I have a pair of RF-Linx 900MHz-2.4GHz units in service for several
years now. They work fine for a PtP link thru a dense tree area...

RickG wrote:

  Mike,

Have you tried them? Anyone?

-RickG

On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 10:51 PM, Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  
Noise?


--
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "RickG" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 9:49 PM
To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org
Subject: [WISPA] frequency converters



  Whats the downside to using frequency converters?
-RickG



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Re: [WISPA] frequency converters

2008-09-10 Thread Patrick Nix Jr.
What frequency are you wanting to convert? We used 2.4 - 5.8 converters
for a backhaul link for several years it was only after lightning took
out one radio that we changed it to an actual PtP bridge.  Ours was
karlnet 2.4 with Orinoco card and 2.4 t0 5.8 converter.  Used winncom
converters by the way.

__
 
Patrick Nix, Jr.,
csweb.net
(918) 235-0414
http://www.csweb.net
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 

ATTENTION: This e-mail may contain information that is confidential in
nature. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this e-mail
and notify the sender immediately. Thank you.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of RickG
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 11:19 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] frequency converters

I always appreciate your input, have you tried them? I'd love to hear
from someone that has and their experience.
-RickG

On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 12:20 AM, Tom DeReggi
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I'm not sure there is any significant disadvantage. Other than the
obvious,
 such as another point of failure, another connection to add loss, mild
loss
 of energy in the conversion, additional cost.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: RickG [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 10:00 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] frequency converters


 Mike,

 Have you tried them? Anyone?

 -RickG

 On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 10:51 PM, Mike Hammett
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 Noise?


 --
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com



 --
 From: RickG [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 9:49 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: [WISPA] frequency converters

 Whats the downside to using frequency converters?
 -RickG





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Re: [WISPA] frequency converters

2008-09-10 Thread John Scrivner
I wish someone made a frequency converter to go from 5.8 to 24 GHz. There is
250 khz of open unlicensed space at that frequency which would be ideal for
backhaul use in places where we are tight in 5.8. I would be using a paif of
those on a sale today if they were available.
John Scrivner



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Re: [WISPA] frequency converters

2008-09-10 Thread George Rogato
I have some RF KLInx 2.4 to 900MHz frequency converters that have been 
on operation for about 6 years now. They work fine altthough they will 
soon be coming out and replaced with a new product.

One place I thought frequency converters would be nice is on towers that 
are too tall to run cable for 5 gig.
Would be nice to have a converter that lowers it from 5 gig at the 
bottom and brings it back to 5 gig at the top, this way the radios can 
stay at the bottom.

Isn't that how Breezecom Alvarion did some of their stuff in the past?

George

RickG wrote:
 Whats the downside to using frequency converters?
 -RickG
 
 
 
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Re: [WISPA] frequency converters

2008-09-10 Thread John Scrivner
Actually what you are describing is very similar to what they did. They used
an intermediate frequency to feed between the base and the tower. The
difference is that there are likely more frequency conversions in your
scenario than the Alvarion / Breezecom setup. In their systems there is only
one up / down conversion at the top.
Scriv


On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 9:28 AM, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I have some RF KLInx 2.4 to 900MHz frequency converters that have been
 on operation for about 6 years now. They work fine altthough they will
 soon be coming out and replaced with a new product.

 One place I thought frequency converters would be nice is on towers that
 are too tall to run cable for 5 gig.
 Would be nice to have a converter that lowers it from 5 gig at the
 bottom and brings it back to 5 gig at the top, this way the radios can
 stay at the bottom.

 Isn't that how Breezecom Alvarion did some of their stuff in the past?

 George

 RickG wrote:
  Whats the downside to using frequency converters?
  -RickG
 
 
 
 
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Re: [WISPA] frequency converters

2008-09-10 Thread jp
Most radios have some sort of intermediate frequency; the chips that 
process the data don't work at 5.8ghz, etc...  Satellite systems work 
much the same way; your 12ghz dish/directtv/fta doesn't work on an rg6 
cable at that frequency.

The Alvarion BA-II tower gear has the downconverter electronics in the 
outdoor unit. I'm not sure, but I think it was in the 400mhz range that 
the DC+RF went to the base. They came with RG58 cables which technically 
worked perfect, but were a bit fragile on the ends. We could run lmr400 
300+ feet with no problems and use lightning arrestors that support DC 
power. That what the system is for; so there would be no serious cable 
loss on long runs. Probably most of the coax based split system radio 
links work in a similar way. We've had zero problems with the indoor 
portions of these systems. If there is lightning damage, it's typically 
isolated to the outdoor part. I'd rather lose an outdoor unit than a 
whole site's ethernet ports.

I'd tested the ubiquity sr9 cards when they came out; they convert 2.4 
to 900. It picked up too much 2.4 interference from other radio cards 
for my liking. 


On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 07:28:19AM -0700, George Rogato wrote:
 I have some RF KLInx 2.4 to 900MHz frequency converters that have been 
 on operation for about 6 years now. They work fine altthough they will 
 soon be coming out and replaced with a new product.
 
 One place I thought frequency converters would be nice is on towers that 
 are too tall to run cable for 5 gig.
 Would be nice to have a converter that lowers it from 5 gig at the 
 bottom and brings it back to 5 gig at the top, this way the radios can 
 stay at the bottom.
 
 Isn't that how Breezecom Alvarion did some of their stuff in the past?
 
 George
 
 RickG wrote:
  Whats the downside to using frequency converters?
  -RickG
  
  
  
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Re: [WISPA] frequency converters

2008-09-10 Thread Chuck McCown - 3
Unlicensed 24 GHz has so little power that it is only good for a mile or 
two.  Is that still an attractive thing?
- Original Message - 
From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] frequency converters


I wish someone made a frequency converter to go from 5.8 to 24 GHz. There 
is
 250 khz of open unlicensed space at that frequency which would be ideal 
 for
 backhaul use in places where we are tight in 5.8. I would be using a paif 
 of
 those on a sale today if they were available.
 John Scrivner


 
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Re: [WISPA] frequency converters

2008-09-10 Thread Gino Villarini
Ithink someone has already on the market an upconverted 802.11x radio to
25 ghz, Snaplink IIRC

Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of jp
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 11:31 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] frequency converters

Most radios have some sort of intermediate frequency; the chips that 
process the data don't work at 5.8ghz, etc...  Satellite systems work 
much the same way; your 12ghz dish/directtv/fta doesn't work on an rg6 
cable at that frequency.

The Alvarion BA-II tower gear has the downconverter electronics in the 
outdoor unit. I'm not sure, but I think it was in the 400mhz range that 
the DC+RF went to the base. They came with RG58 cables which technically

worked perfect, but were a bit fragile on the ends. We could run lmr400 
300+ feet with no problems and use lightning arrestors that support DC 
power. That what the system is for; so there would be no serious cable 
loss on long runs. Probably most of the coax based split system radio 
links work in a similar way. We've had zero problems with the indoor 
portions of these systems. If there is lightning damage, it's typically 
isolated to the outdoor part. I'd rather lose an outdoor unit than a 
whole site's ethernet ports.

I'd tested the ubiquity sr9 cards when they came out; they convert 2.4 
to 900. It picked up too much 2.4 interference from other radio cards 
for my liking. 


On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 07:28:19AM -0700, George Rogato wrote:
 I have some RF KLInx 2.4 to 900MHz frequency converters that have been

 on operation for about 6 years now. They work fine altthough they will

 soon be coming out and replaced with a new product.
 
 One place I thought frequency converters would be nice is on towers
that 
 are too tall to run cable for 5 gig.
 Would be nice to have a converter that lowers it from 5 gig at the 
 bottom and brings it back to 5 gig at the top, this way the radios can

 stay at the bottom.
 
 Isn't that how Breezecom Alvarion did some of their stuff in the past?
 
 George
 
 RickG wrote:
  Whats the downside to using frequency converters?
  -RickG
  
  
 


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 http://f64.nu/   |   for Midcoast Mainehttp://www.midcoast.com/
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Re: [WISPA] frequency converters

2008-09-10 Thread John Scrivner
It is for me. In the places where I use up all my 5.8 I need more bandwidth
more than I need more power.
Scriv


On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:

 Unlicensed 24 GHz has so little power that it is only good for a mile or
 two.  Is that still an attractive thing?
 - Original Message -
 From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 7:37 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] frequency converters


 I wish someone made a frequency converter to go from 5.8 to 24 GHz. There
 is
  250 khz of open unlicensed space at that frequency which would be ideal
  for
  backhaul use in places where we are tight in 5.8. I would be using a paif
  of
  those on a sale today if they were available.
  John Scrivner
 
 
 
 
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Re: [WISPA] frequency converters

2008-09-10 Thread Gino Villarini
John

Check out Snaplink radio . com

Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Scrivner
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 1:14 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] frequency converters

It is for me. In the places where I use up all my 5.8 I need more
bandwidth
more than I need more power.
Scriv


On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Chuck McCown - 3
[EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:

 Unlicensed 24 GHz has so little power that it is only good for a mile
or
 two.  Is that still an attractive thing?
 - Original Message -
 From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 7:37 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] frequency converters


 I wish someone made a frequency converter to go from 5.8 to 24 GHz.
There
 is
  250 khz of open unlicensed space at that frequency which would be
ideal
  for
  backhaul use in places where we are tight in 5.8. I would be using a
paif
  of
  those on a sale today if they were available.
  John Scrivner
 
 
 



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Re: [WISPA] frequency converters

2008-09-10 Thread John Scrivner
Just talked to them. Price is too high. They want about $6 to $7 grand for a
link. Too rich for my blood.
Scriv


On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 12:16 PM, Gino Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 John

 Check out Snaplink radio . com

 Gino A. Villarini
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
 tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of John Scrivner
 Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 1:14 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] frequency converters

 It is for me. In the places where I use up all my 5.8 I need more
 bandwidth
 more than I need more power.
 Scriv


 On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Chuck McCown - 3
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:

  Unlicensed 24 GHz has so little power that it is only good for a mile
 or
  two.  Is that still an attractive thing?
  - Original Message -
  From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
  Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 7:37 AM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] frequency converters
 
 
  I wish someone made a frequency converter to go from 5.8 to 24 GHz.
 There
  is
   250 khz of open unlicensed space at that frequency which would be
 ideal
   for
   backhaul use in places where we are tight in 5.8. I would be using a
 paif
   of
   those on a sale today if they were available.
   John Scrivner
  
  
  
 
 
 
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Re: [WISPA] frequency converters

2008-09-10 Thread Tom DeReggi
John,

The radios I was referring to when I mentioned 23G under $6k was Snaplink.
But I mistakenly stated the spectrum, it is actually 24Ghz unlicened.
Its a FDX 50mbps link.  Its a good affordable option, when its a short 
distance, and top speed is not needed.
Still not as low as I'd like, down to Atheros/SBC pricing, or ext freq 
converter.

However, based on Trango's new low promo prices, its hard to justify using 
anything else for backhaul.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 8:37 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] frequency converters


I wish someone made a frequency converter to go from 5.8 to 24 GHz. There 
is
 250 khz of open unlicensed space at that frequency which would be ideal 
 for
 backhaul use in places where we are tight in 5.8. I would be using a paif 
 of
 those on a sale today if they were available.
 John Scrivner


 
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Re: [WISPA] frequency converters

2008-09-10 Thread Marlon K. Schafer
Noise!
Cost.
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: RickG [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 7:49 PM
Subject: [WISPA] frequency converters


 Whats the downside to using frequency converters?
 -RickG


 
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Re: [WISPA] frequency converters

2008-09-10 Thread RickG
I want to convert 2.4GHz to 5.8GHz for exactly that reason: to have
the radio at the bottom and the antennas at the top.
Good comments from all (as always). Thanks! -RickG

On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 10:28 AM, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I have some RF KLInx 2.4 to 900MHz frequency converters that have been
 on operation for about 6 years now. They work fine altthough they will
 soon be coming out and replaced with a new product.

 One place I thought frequency converters would be nice is on towers that
 are too tall to run cable for 5 gig.
 Would be nice to have a converter that lowers it from 5 gig at the
 bottom and brings it back to 5 gig at the top, this way the radios can
 stay at the bottom.

 Isn't that how Breezecom Alvarion did some of their stuff in the past?

 George

 RickG wrote:
 Whats the downside to using frequency converters?
 -RickG


 
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Re: [WISPA] frequency converters

2008-09-09 Thread Mike Hammett
Noise?


--
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: RickG [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 9:49 PM
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: [WISPA] frequency converters

 Whats the downside to using frequency converters?
 -RickG


 
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Re: [WISPA] frequency converters

2008-09-09 Thread RickG
Mike,

Have you tried them? Anyone?

-RickG

On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 10:51 PM, Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Noise?


 --
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com



 --
 From: RickG [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 9:49 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: [WISPA] frequency converters

 Whats the downside to using frequency converters?
 -RickG


 
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Re: [WISPA] frequency converters

2008-09-09 Thread Tom DeReggi
I'm not sure there is any significant disadvantage. Other than the obvious, 
such as another point of failure, another connection to add loss, mild loss 
of energy in the conversion, additional cost.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: RickG [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 10:00 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] frequency converters


 Mike,

 Have you tried them? Anyone?

 -RickG

 On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 10:51 PM, Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 Noise?


 --
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com



 --
 From: RickG [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 9:49 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: [WISPA] frequency converters

 Whats the downside to using frequency converters?
 -RickG


 
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Re: [WISPA] frequency converters

2008-09-09 Thread RickG
I always appreciate your input, have you tried them? I'd love to hear
from someone that has and their experience.
-RickG

On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 12:20 AM, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I'm not sure there is any significant disadvantage. Other than the obvious,
 such as another point of failure, another connection to add loss, mild loss
 of energy in the conversion, additional cost.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: RickG [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 10:00 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] frequency converters


 Mike,

 Have you tried them? Anyone?

 -RickG

 On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 10:51 PM, Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 Noise?


 --
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com



 --
 From: RickG [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 9:49 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: [WISPA] frequency converters

 Whats the downside to using frequency converters?
 -RickG


 
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Re: [WISPA] frequency converters

2008-09-09 Thread Tom DeReggi
Rick,

In all fairness, we have not often used third party Frequency Converters, 
because of the cost. Additional input from those that have more experience 
with specific models, would likely be beneficial to hear from.

What I can tell you is that it is becoming a popular trend to implement 
frequency converter in manufacturer's product lines to lower cost. The first 
two examples that come to mind are Trango's 5580s, or Ubiquiti's 900Mhz mpci 
cards which are more or 2.4G chipsets with Freq Converters.  It doesn't stop 
there... Similar concepts have been applied to some 18Ghz and 23Ghz brand 
radios, to make them more affordable to make, integrating them with Wifi 
OFDM chipsets. This approach resulted in the first 23Ghz to enter the market 
under $6000 per link, that I was aware of.

I'd recommend that you look into the Freq Converters made by Teletronics, in 
general we had found them to be pretty high quality converters, with no 
complaints.

There are a couple of considerations to deploy.
1) when converting from a device that has a wide bandwdith to a channel that 
has a narrower limited bandwidth, you often have to use a single defined 
channel for that converter model. That obviously can reduce the flexibilty 
of changing channels on the fly.
2) Just like Amps, the Freq Conv are designed to receive input signal at a 
specified gain.  And likewise should be used with a Radio that can output 
power at that specified level, to reduce creating distortion/noise. (Specs 
should be disclosed by the manufacturer.)
3) There is also a difference betweem DSSS and OFDM Freq Converters. 
Personally, I think its more critical to have a clean quality Freq Converter 
for OFDM, that typically will use QAM64 modulations, that are more sensitive 
to noise..

I think one of the exciting uses for Freq Converters might be to use it for 
converting your favorate 5.8Gear to 3.650Ghz. But we have never done it yet. 
Nor investigated legality of it for FCC approval

I think the first question to ask, is why the Freq Converter is needed. 
Apposed to just buying the correct freq product in the first place. The 
answer to that first, might define what freq converter design would be right 
for you.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: RickG [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 11:19 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] frequency converters


I always appreciate your input, have you tried them? I'd love to hear
 from someone that has and their experience.
 -RickG

 On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 12:20 AM, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 I'm not sure there is any significant disadvantage. Other than the 
 obvious,
 such as another point of failure, another connection to add loss, mild 
 loss
 of energy in the conversion, additional cost.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: RickG [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 10:00 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] frequency converters


 Mike,

 Have you tried them? Anyone?

 -RickG

 On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 10:51 PM, Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 Noise?


 --
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com



 --
 From: RickG [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 9:49 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: [WISPA] frequency converters

 Whats the downside to using frequency converters?
 -RickG


 
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