Re: [WSG] DTDS and which to use?
Hi all I have copied a page from my website and make the DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict just to see the diff btwn transitional and strict. You can see it here http://www.sodesires.com/about/strict.html Well thexhtml validation shows error but even after reading the explanation of errors, I still could not really understand what they meant! Below are the results of attempting to parse this document with an SGML parser. Line 11, column 17: there is no attribute "language" (explain...). script language="_javascript_" src="" type="text/javasc ^ Line 38, column 85: there is no attribute "name" (explain...). .../header_title/about.gif" alt="" name="headertitle_default" width="235" height ^ Line 38, column 138: there is no attribute "border" (explain...). ...ault" width="235" height="80" border="0" id="headertitle_default" //div ^ Line 70, column 68: there is no attribute "target" (explain...). ...t.com/gallery/so_desires.php" target="_blank" class="aLeftCol"CSS Vault/a ^ Line 74, column 125: there is no attribute "hspace" (explain...). ... pixel" width="7" height="23" hspace="10" /:: /spanspan class="ttLeftCol" ^ With Regards, Jaime Wong ~~~ SODesires Design Team http://www.sodesires.com ~~~ ---Original Message--- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 25/02/2004 2:30:59 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] DTDS and which to use? Hi Jaime, you may also find this article of some use. Addy: http://leavesrustle.com/articles/124/ Good luck. Regards, JG I have always work with XHTML 1.0 Transitional and never really bothered with Strict until I yesterday when someone sub a project to me saying that the client wanted the page done using Strict because it is the latest. Is being the latest the point in using strict? I find it kinda amusing. What's the difference actually between the 3 besides how the web generates the page and how do you decide which to use? Pondered over this because I have never tried working with strict and now that I have, W3C xhtml validator is showing bunch of errors which I have no idea why it could be errors. Basically limiting me to the core. Urggh! Why would a person decide when to use Strict? Wouldn't using transitional be easier for making it work with certain database, scripts etc like for e.g. movable type? Anyone has a link to an online tutorial with working with strict xhtml dtds besides those links at W3C? Sorry for this non CSS related topic but just hope the list could help clear my confusion :) With Regards, Jaime Wong ~~~ SODesires Design Team http://www.sodesires.com ~~~ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * _ Why Pay $35 for a .COM, .NET or .ORG Web Address? iDotz.Net offers Cool Domains @ Great Prices! Starting @ $8.75 Go: http://www.idotz.net * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * . IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here
Re: [WSG] DTDS and which to use?
On 25 Feb 2004, at 09:12, JW wrote: Hi all I have copied a page from my website and make the DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict just to see the diff btwn transitional and strict. You can see it here http://www.sodesires.com/about/strict.html Well the xhtml validation shows error but even after reading the explanation of errors, I still could not really understand what they meant! No Worries. They are all pretty simple, and pretty minor. Below are the results of attempting to parse this document with an SGML parser. 1. Line 11, column 17: there is no attribute language (explain...). script language=JavaScript src=../scripts/js/SODglobal.js type=text/javasc There is no language attribute in XHTML strict, so you should remove the language=javaScript bit ^ 2. Line 38, column 85: there is no attribute name (explain...). .../header_title/about.gif alt= name=headertitle_default width=235 height Again, there is no name attribute, use id instead ^ 3. Line 38, column 138: there is no attribute border (explain...). ...ault width=235 height=80 border=0 id=headertitle_default //div Get rid of border=0 and set this in your css ^ 4. Line 70, column 68: there is no attribute target (explain...). ...t.com/gallery/so_desires.php target=_blank class=aLeftColCSS Vault/a No target attribute. Get rid of this (opening up new windows is annoying anyway) ^ 5. Line 74, column 125: there is no attribute hspace (explain...). ... pixel width=7 height=23 hspace=10 /:: /spanspan class=ttLeftCol no hspace attribute. With XHTML strict you should really be aiming to move all presentational html into your css, so trash this as well. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] double quoting
El mié, 25-02-2004 a las 04:24, Justin French escribió:
Personally, I've been using single quotes for a few years, because it
makes echo's in PHP a lot easier:
echo div id='foo'{$bah}/div;
is a lot easier to read than
echo div id=\foo\{$bah}/div;
I tend to single-quote the whole PHP statement, that allows me to
double-quote the attributes and keep it highly readable. I also find
concatenation+syntax coloring very helpful
echo 'div id=foo'.$bah.'/div';
--
Manuel González Noriega
Simplelógica, construcción web
URL: http://simplelogica.net
EMAIL: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
TELEFONO: (+34) 985 22 12 65
Logicola es el weblog de Simplelógica http://simplelogica.net/logicola/
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Re: [WSG] DTDS and which to use?
Hi Jaime
On 25 Feb 2004, at 09:12, JW wrote:
Hi all
I have copied a page from my website and make the DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict
just to see the diff btwn transitional and strict. You can see it here
http://www.sodesires.com/about/strict.html
Well the xhtml validation shows error but even after reading the
explanation of errors, I still could not really understand what they
meant!
Below are the results of attempting to parse this document with an
SGML parser.
1. Line 11, column 17: there is no attribute language
(explain...).
script language=JavaScript src=../scripts/js/SODglobal.js
type=text/javasc
Not sure with Strict, I'll leave this to someone else...
^
2. Line 38, column 85: there is no attribute name (explain...).
.../header_title/about.gif alt= name=headertitle_default
width=235 height
No name attribute for img. Not too clued up on the reasons for this one
(apart from it being deprecated), but it's simple enough to remove.
^
3. Line 38, column 138: there is no attribute border
(explain...).
...ault width=235 height=80 border=0 id=headertitle_default
//div
Use CSS to take away borders (i.e. you can do this univerally to all
images by simply adding:
img { border: none; }
... to your CSS file(s).
^
4. Line 70, column 68: there is no attribute target (explain...).
...t.com/gallery/so_desires.php target=_blank
class=aLeftColCSS Vault/a
You've stumbled across a sore point for certain people using Strict...
you can't use target attribute in a link. YOu'll after dig out
javascript (or other means).
^
5. Line 74, column 125: there is no attribute hspace
(explain...).
... pixel width=7 height=23 hspace=10 /:: /spanspan
class=ttLeftCol
No hspace attribute in images either, use CSS to add margin to the
image.
All these are pretty elementary, and should stop you achieving
validation.
^
With Regards,
Jaime Wong
~~~
SODesires Design Team
http://www.sodesires.com
~~~
---Original Message---
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 25/02/2004 2:30:59 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] DTDS and which to use?
Hi Jaime, you may also find this article of some use.
Addy: http://leavesrustle.com/articles/124/
Good luck.
Regards, JG
I have always work with XHTML 1.0 Transitional and never really
bothered
with Strict until I yesterday when someone sub a project to me
saying that
the client wanted the page done using Strict because it is the
latest. Is
being the latest the point in using strict? I find it kinda amusing.
What's the difference actually between the 3 besides how the web
generates
the page and how do you decide which to use? Pondered over this
because I
have never tried working with strict and now that I have, W3C xhtml
validator is showing bunch of errors which I have no idea why it
could be
errors. Basically limiting me to the core. Urggh! Why would a person
decide
when to use Strict?
Wouldn't using transitional be easier for making it work with certain
database, scripts etc like for e.g. movable type?
Anyone has a link to an online tutorial with working with strict
xhtml
dtds
besides those links at W3C?
Sorry for this non CSS related topic but just hope the list could
help
clear
my confusion :)
With Regards,
Jaime Wong
~~~
SODesires Design Team
http://www.sodesires.com
~~~
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The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
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Cool Domains @ Great Prices! Starting @ $8.75 Go: http://www.idotz.net
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.
image.tiff IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here
Kind regards
Martin Chapman
--
Web development, identity and design.
co-ord.com Limited
9 Tynwald Road
West Kirby
Merseyside
CH48 4DA
Tel: +44 (0)151 625 1443
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.co-ord.com
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Re: [WSG] DTDS and which to use?
Ooo I see! Thanks Andy/ Martin! Hmm any ideas in tweaking Dreamweaver to work with standards? As for open target in new window, if I want a new window, how can I achieve it with strict? I guessis preferences really although I do notice lots of website do not open up in new window but I will always open those links up in new windows as I prefer to have the original page there to refer back to. So to open links upin new windows or not isstill a question to mecause I prefer new window. But I will try to please the majority :) With Regards, Jaime Wong ~~~ SODesires Design Team http://www.sodesires.com ~~~ ---Original Message--- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 25/02/2004 5:53:53 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] DTDS and which to use? On 25 Feb 2004, at 09:12, JW wrote: Hi all I have copied a page from my website and make the DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict just to see the diff btwn transitional and strict. You can see it here http://www.sodesires.com/about/strict.html Well thexhtml validation shows error but even after reading the explanation of errors, I still could not really understand what they meant! No Worries. They are all pretty simple, and pretty minor. Below are the results of attempting to parse this document with an SGML parser. 1. Line 11, column 17: there is no attribute "language" (explain...). script language="_javascript_" src="" type="text/javasc There is no language attribute in XHTML strict, so you should remove the language="_javascript_" bit ^ 2. Line 38, column 85: there is no attribute "name" (explain...). .../header_title/about.gif" alt="" name="headertitle_default" width="235" height Again, there is no name attribute, use id instead ^ 3. Line 38, column 138: there is no attribute "border" (explain...). ...ault" width="235" height="80" border="0" id="headertitle_default" //div Get rid of border="0" and set this in your css ^ 4. Line 70, column 68: there is no attribute "target" (explain...). ...t.com/gallery/so_desires.php" target="_blank" class="aLeftCol"CSS Vault/a No target attribute. Get rid of this (opening up new windows is annoying anyway) ^ 5. Line 74, column 125: there is no attribute "hspace" (explain...). ... pixel" width="7" height="23" hspace="10" /:: /spanspan class="ttLeftCol" no hspace attribute. With XHTML strict you should really be aiming to move all presentational html into your css, so trash this as well. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * . IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here
Re: [WSG] DTDS and which to use?
El mié, 25-02-2004 a las 11:40, JW escribió: Ooo I see! Thanks Andy / Martin! Hmm any ideas in tweaking Dreamweaver to work with standards? As for open target in new window, if I want a new window, how can I achieve it with strict? When switching DOCTYPEs isn't an option, try the method suggested here http://www.sitepoint.com/article/1041 . -- Manuel González Noriega Simplelógica, construcción web URL: http://simplelogica.net EMAIL: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TELEFONO: (+34) 985 22 12 65 Logicola es el weblog de Simplelógica http://simplelogica.net/logicola/ /pThat's right. We said Frontpage./p * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] DTDS and which to use?
UsingMX 04. Actually really want to tweak it the way it generates the html codes. Like if I am working with strict thenI cantweakit to generate the html the way I want forxhtml strict. Hmm maybe dreamweaver can't becustomised that way. Sounds rather far-fetch. With Regards, Jaime Wong ~~~ SODesires Design Team http://www.sodesires.com ~~~ ---Original Message--- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 25/02/2004 7:22:53 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] DTDS and which to use? On 25 Feb 2004, at 10:40, JW wrote: Ooo I see! Thanks Andy/ Martin! Hmm any ideas in tweaking Dreamweaver to work with standards? Which version? I stopped using it at MX. You can tick 'Make all document XHTML compliant' somewhere in preferences. As for open target in new window, if I want a new window, how can I achieve it with strict? There was the exact same discussion a few weeks ago on this board. _javascript_ was the main option (didn't pay much attention though). Do a search in the list for XHTML(OT??) on 7 Feb. I guessis preferences really although I do notice lots of website do not open up in new window but I will always open those links up in new windows as I prefer to have the original page there to refer back to. So to open links upin new windows or not isstill a question to mecause I prefer new window. But I will try to please the majority :) With Regards, Jaime Wong ~~~ SODesires Design Team http://www.sodesires.com ~~~ ---Original Message--- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 25/02/2004 5:53:53 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] DTDS and which to use? On 25 Feb 2004, at 09:12, JW wrote: Hi all I have copied a page from my website and make the DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict just to see the diff btwn transitional and strict. You can see it here http://www.sodesires.com/about/strict.html Well thexhtml validation shows error but even after reading the explanation of errors, I still could not really understand what they meant! No Worries. They are all pretty simple, and pretty minor. Below are the results of attempting to parse this document with an SGML parser. 1. Line 11, column 17: there is no attribute "language" (explain...). script language="_javascript_" src="" type="text/javasc There is no language attribute in XHTML strict, so you should remove the language="_javascript_" bit ^ 2. Line 38, column 85: there is no attribute "name" (explain...). .../header_title/about.gif" alt="" name="headertitle_default" width="235" height Again, there is no name attribute, use id instead ^ 3. Line 38, column 138: there is no attribute "border" (explain...). ...ault" width="235" height="80" border="0" id="headertitle_default" //div Get rid of border="0" and set this in your css ^ 4. Line 70, column 68: there is no attribute "target" (explain...). ...t.com/gallery/so_desires.php" target="_blank" class="aLeftCol"CSS Vault/a No target attribute. Get rid of this (opening up new windows is annoying anyway) ^ 5. Line 74, column 125: there is no attribute "hspace" (explain...). ... pixel" width="7" height="23" hspace="10" /:: /spanspan class="ttLeftCol" no hspace attribute. With XHTML strict you should really be aiming to move all presentational html into your css, so trash this as well. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * . image.tiff IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here Kind regards Martin Chapman -- Web development, identity and design. co-ord.com Limited 9 Tynwald Road West Kirby Merseyside CH48 4DA Tel: +44 (0)151 625 1443 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.co-ord.com -- * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here
[WSG] IE6 and 3 pixel out
Hello folks, I have a fully valid XHTML transitional page that performs perfectly in the standards compliant browsers but refuses to behave in IE. The page is here: http://www.skyrocket.com.au/Concepts/Artform/index.html In IE 6 for example there is a 3 pixel gap formed between the graphics and the right edge of the div. You can also see this happening over on the left hand side on the shot of the building. Can someone with better knowledge of how to hack for IE see what is going on? Many thanks from Mr Exasperated. Regards PAUL ROSS SkyRocket Design Co
RE: [WSG] DTDS and which to use?
Yes, I use dreamweaver for all flavours of XHTML. You can customise it by editing the template files if what you want isnt in the preferences. In a default installation on windows theyre in c:\program files\macromedia\Dreamweaver MX 2004\configuration you can use any text editor to change the default documents there, including the doctypes. Also theres a command to convert a document to xhtml and when you do the command menu changes from clean up html to clean up xhtml. Then it tidies up all the issues like lower case tags, closing tags, correct nesting etc etc. Its not perfect but its pretty good. Also when your document is xhtml itll fix your syntax as you write. If you open a paragraph tag, itll automatically close it too. Same with li and td and tr tags. Macromedia have done a LOT of work with the various standards interested parties to get these kinds of features into the product. Its by far the best version of dreamweaver ever. I was a sceptic until I was forced to learn it to be compatible with a clients setup and Im totally sold on it. Ive let go of most of my other tools now. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com From: JW [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 25 February 2004 10:33 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] DTDS and which to use? UsingMX 04. Actually really want to tweak it the way it generates the html codes. Like if I am working with strict thenI cantweakit to generate the html the way I want forxhtml strict. Hmm maybe dreamweaver can't becustomised that way. Sounds rather far-fetch. With Regards, Jaime Wong ~~~ SODesires Design Team http://www.sodesires.com ~~~
Re: [WSG] double quoting
Justin French wrote:
div onmouseover=myFunc('foo','bah').../div
will break terribly when converted to
div onmouseover='myFunc('foo','bah')'
This might actualy not be such a big problem if you HTMLEncodes your
inline javascript.
This seems to work in IE 6, FF 0.8, OP 6 and NN 4.7 (win)
a href=javascript: alert(quot;testquot;);test/a
a href=# onclick=alert(quot;testquot;);return false;test/a
a href='javascript: alert(quot;testquot;);'test/a
a href='#' onclick='alert(quot;testquot;);return false;'test/a
a href=javascript: alert(#39;test#39;);test/a
a href=# onclick=alert(#39;test#39;);return false;test/a
a href='javascript: alert(#39;test#39;);'test/a
a href='#' onclick='alert(#39;test#39;);return false;'test/a
Personaly, I would recommend using an external .js file.
--
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Re: [WSG] IE6 and 3 pixel out
El mié, 25-02-2004 a las 13:21, Paul Ross escribió: Hello folks, I have a fully valid XHTML transitional page that performs perfectly in the standards compliant browsers but refuses to behave in IE. The page is here: http://www.skyrocket.com.au/Concepts/Artform/index.html In IE 6 for example there is a 3 pixel gap formed between the graphics and the right edge of the div. You can also see this happening over on the left hand side on the shot of the building. Can someone with better knowledge of how to hack for IE see what is going on? Many thanks from Mr Exasperated. Take a look at http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer/threepxtest.html -- Manuel González Noriega Simplelógica, construcción web URL: http://simplelogica.net EMAIL: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TELEFONO: (+34) 985 22 12 65 Logicola es el weblog de Simplelógica http://simplelogica.net/logicola/ /pThat's right. We said Frontpage./p * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG] A new standards based smh.com.au/technology
Just received an email[1] from my SMH subscription stating they've launched a new website, SMH.com.au technology: http://www.smh.com.au/technology I have to admit. I was a little cynical and was preparing myself for an onslaught of presentational markup and zilch semantic markup. Off I went and viewed the source of the new website and... low and behold... its semantic markup laid out purely with CSS (otherwise known as a CSS-P layout). Hats off to the f2 network web team (I know you're on this list!) for moving SMH's policies toward a standards based architecture. Unfortunately the site doesn't validate because of bare ampersands in URIs, some javascript language attribs, attributes that aren't doubled quoted and a missing alt tag. The ad banner system seems to be the cause of most of the errors which, im guessing, is out of their control. Again, nice work f2! I look forward to seeing you move more of SMH (and the f2 network) towards standards based techonologies (including a focus on some accessibility features). A question on behalf of those who are considering moving their companies to standards based design: How were the forces of power in f2 convinced to invest in web standards and what commitment by management was needed for this to become (what I consider to be) a successful project? -- tim www.toolmantim.com [1] -- FWD-From: smh.com.au Technology [EMAIL PROTECTED] New look technology site Dear Tim, The new look technology section on smh.com.au/technology has just launched. It has been enhanced to provide more breaking technology news and to showcase the vast amount of news, analysis and reviews available online from Next, ICON and LiveWire. Plus, it will be even easier for you to navigate around. What has changed? - It is now a fixed-width site, which will make it easier to scan the headlines and read the articles. - We have rearranged the site into two main columns, which allows you to see all of the different sections and updated news and features at a glance. - And, there's an extra navigation across the top, a change of colours and picture bylines for our fantastic columnists, to make the site a little more personal. New features - Resources section with an IT Events calendar - Management Focus with articles from our MIS publications in Australia, Asia, NZ and the UK - More IT Whitepapers and all the latest tech tips from Next - Refreshed design and layout for the technology news emails starting from next week We hope you like the changes to the technology site that have been long in coming, but which we hope will improve your enjoyment. Take a look at smh.com.au/technology now and send us your feedback. Regards Mike van Niekerk Managing Editor, Online The Sydney Morning Herald * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] DTDS and which to use?
El mié, 25-02-2004 a las 15:02, JW escribió: Line 89, column 11: there is no attribute name (explain...). form name=service id=service method=post action= form_service/dodosmail.p Yes, in Strict there's no name attribute for the form element, use id instead. Note that name *IS NOT* deprecated for form elements such as input, just for the form element itself (this is a common misunderstanding) ^ Line 91, column 88: document type does not allow element input here; missing one of p, h1, h2, h3, h4, h5, h6, div, pre, address, fieldset, ins, del start-tag ...subject,name,email,country,message / ^ Enclose the inputs within a block element such as p or div / Example: http://www.simplebits.com/bits/simplequiz/#entry579 Is that all? Congrats, then :) -- Manuel González Noriega Simplelógica, construcción web URL: http://simplelogica.net EMAIL: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TELEFONO: (+34) 985 22 12 65 Logicola es el weblog de Simplelógica http://simplelogica.net/logicola/ /pThat's right. We said Frontpage./p * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] DTDS and which to use?
Thank you very much Manuel.Now everything validates and converted all pages on my site except for thefavourite linksas I have the links to open up in new pages. Now I am confident to convert client's site to XHTML 1.0 Strict. Couldn't do this with everyone's kind assistance! Once again thanks all!!! With Regards, Jaime Wong ~~~ SODesires Design Team http://www.sodesires.com ~~~ ---Original Message--- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 25/02/2004 11:51:33 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] DTDS and which to use? El mié, 25-02-2004 a las 15:02, JW escribió: Line 89, column 11: there is no attribute "name" (explain...). form name="service" id="service" method="post" action=""> form_service/dodosmail.p Yes, in Strict there's no "name" attribute for the form element, use "id" instead. Note that "name" *IS NOT* deprecated for form elements such as input, just for the form element itself (this is a common misunderstanding) ^ Line 91, column 88: document type does not allow element "input" here; missing one of "p", "h1", "h2", "h3", "h4", "h5", "h6", "div", "pre", address", "fieldset", "ins", "del" start-tag ...subject,name,email,country,message" / ^ Enclose the inputs within a block element such as p or div / Example: http://www.simplebits.com/bits/simplequiz/#entry579 Is that all? Congrats, then :) -- Manuel González Noriega Simplelógica, construcción web URL: http://simplelogica.net EMAIL: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TELEFONO: (+34) 985 22 12 65 Logicola es el weblog de Simplelógica http://simplelogica.net/logicola/ /pThat's right. We said Frontpage./p * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * . IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here
RE: [WSG] DTDS and which to use?
Well done Jaime, I remember only a couple of weeks ago when I converted my first one. I nearly wore out my delete key getting rid of all the extraneous crap on my pages. The size of the site is a fraction of what it was now, even though the content is the same. And I bet your site is now cleaner, leaner, faster to load and more consistent than it was. And you make note of how much time you spend on maintaining it, compared to what it used to take you. Welcome to the modern world! Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com From: JW [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 26 February 2004 3:42 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] DTDS and which to use? Thank you very much Manuel. Now everything validates and converted all pages on my site except for the favourite links as I have the links to open up in new pages. Now I am confident to convert client's site to XHTML 1.0 Strict. Couldn't do this with everyone's kind assistance! Once again thanks all!!! With Regards, Jaime Wong ~~~ SODesires Design Team http://www.sodesires.com ~~~ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] A new standards based smh.com.au/technology
Title: RE: [WSG] A new standards based smh.com.au/technology Hi Tim, thanks for yr kind words :) I was going to send a note around to the list when we fixed a few things up with it but just havent had time... ok, so few points: * yep, the new tech section is our first live site using css for layout. any site we build from scratch from this point will be using css for layout. if we're ammending old sites we'll probably use the existing (table) layout, but it'll be a case by case thing. * we were all quite stoked in the design team when we got to the end of the first day and hadnt recieved one email from a user saying the layout was funked up or they couldnt read the text or any of the other usual emails we get when we launch something of a decent profile * the validating thing is difficult - for the reasons you pointed out mostly. I think wired had some similar issues with ad tags etc when they launched. There's probably some other bits of code that arent validating either that we can improve on as we go. the projects move so fast that its very difficult to do anything past making sure it looks decent in IE5, 5.5, 6, Opera, Mozilla, Safari - and then we're away. We value the importance of validation bigtime, but we dont kill ourselves over it. hence we've chosen the 'transitional' approach. * we've learnt more about css layouts since the design was locked down (first week of jan) and while the positioning of the left and right columns are floats in this design, we'll be using absolute positioning for those columns in the future. mainly to get the main content further up in the markup. * to answer How were the 'forces of power' in f2 convinced to invest in web standards and what commitment by management was needed? question: a) we illustrated how much money we'd save on serving costs due to lighter pages. Its hard to predict an exact figure but I think it'd run into hundreds of thousands of dollars once we convert the whole network over to css. b) we are obviously very focussed on budgets etc - its a commercial business - so as sites are needing quicker and quicker redsigns to keep up with the market and advertising needs we had to standardise and make redesigns as simple as possible. c) better markup = better chances of ratings on search engines d) at the moment our 'network' of sites doesnt look much like a network. css is going to help standardise elements and the look feel. e) easier implementation for the dev guys. now that the pages are cut up into little bit size chunks (divs), they arent fooling around with our non-breaking spaces, br tags, col/rowspans in tables other stuff. and that one has just been proven. easiest and smoothest implementation of one of our designs yet. f) pages load faster We're also lucky to have a great very persuasive manager ourselves who was able to put all this into a message that was even more attractive to the wider Management who really just want to know does it look great? and how much did it cost?. In short, we're pretty excited. And a little nervous. Youve gotta understand, this is pretty nerve racking putting such a high profile design up, (i think its over 400,000 unique users a month now for just this section) and having the design community/this list check it out :) you know that feeling you get when you preview something in opera and your heart jumps up into your throat as youre waiting on it to load.. :) anyway, thumbs up to Andrew Coffey, one of our 4 designers (including myself) here that was the lead designer on this one. Let us know if you can spot any major display errors or anything. In saying that, we've learnt a lot since this design got locked down (as is the way with this css game - its so hard to keep up! :) so keep an eye out for some major improvements across the whole smh/age sites proper over the next few months. if anyones got any other questions, let us know, i could talk underwater about this stuff ;-) pete Pete Ottery Lead Designer f2 - fairfax interactive network P: 02 8596 4450 E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Tim Lucas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 1:00 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] A new standards based smh.com.au/technology Just received an email[1] from my SMH subscription stating they've launched a new website, SMH.com.au technology: http://www.smh.com.au/technology I have to admit. I was a little cynical and was preparing myself for an onslaught of presentational markup and zilch semantic markup. Off I went and viewed the source of the new website and... low and behold... its semantic markup laid out purely with CSS (otherwise known as a CSS-P layout). Hats off to the f2 network web team (I know you're on this list!) for moving SMH's policies toward a
Re: [WSG] A new standards based smh.com.au/technology
Hi Pete, Funny, I was going to mention this to the list but I hesitated. However, after your reply below I'm glad Tim didn't hesitate. I don't know about anyone else, but your reasons why, coming from such a high profile site, are a great advertisement/example to Australian clients of reasons to use web standards. I'd certainly like to use them if you have no objections. Nick Hi Tim, thanks for yr kind words :) I was going to send a note around to the list when we fixed a few things up with it but just havent had time... ok, so few points: * yep, the new tech section is our first live site using css for layout. any site we build from scratch from this point will be using css for layout. if we're ammending old sites we'll probably use the existing (table) layout, but it'll be a case by case thing. * we were all quite stoked in the design team when we got to the end of the first day and hadnt recieved one email from a user saying the layout was funked up or they couldnt read the text or any of the other usual emails we get when we launch something of a decent profile * the validating thing is difficult - for the reasons you pointed out mostly. I think wired had some similar issues with ad tags etc when they launched. There's probably some other bits of code that arent validating either that we can improve on as we go. the projects move so fast that its very difficult to do anything past making sure it looks decent in IE5, 5.5, 6, Opera, Mozilla, Safari - and then we're away. We value the importance of validation bigtime, but we dont kill ourselves over it. hence we've chosen the 'transitional' approach. * we've learnt more about css layouts since the design was locked down (first week of jan) and while the positioning of the left and right columns are floats in this design, we'll be using absolute positioning for those columns in the future. mainly to get the main content further up in the markup. * to answer How were the 'forces of power' in f2 convinced to invest in web standards and what commitment by management was needed? question: a) we illustrated how much money we'd save on serving costs due to lighter pages. Its hard to predict an exact figure but I think it'd run into hundreds of thousands of dollars once we convert the whole network over to css. b) we are obviously very focussed on budgets etc - its a commercial business - so as sites are needing quicker and quicker redsigns to keep up with the market and advertising needs we had to standardise and make redesigns as simple as possible. c) better markup = better chances of ratings on search engines d) at the moment our 'network' of sites doesnt look much like a network. css is going to help standardise elements and the look feel. e) easier implementation for the dev guys. now that the pages are cut up into little bit size chunks (divs), they arent fooling around with our non-breaking spaces, br tags, col/rowspans in tables other stuff. and that one has just been proven. easiest and smoothest implementation of one of our designs yet. f) pages load faster We're also lucky to have a great very persuasive manager ourselves who was able to put all this into a message that was even more attractive to the wider Management who really just want to know does it look great? and how much did it cost?. In short, we're pretty excited. And a little nervous. Youve gotta understand, this is pretty nerve racking putting such a high profile design up, (i think its over 400,000 unique users a month now for just this section) and having the design community/this list check it out :) you know that feeling you get when you preview something in opera and your heart jumps up into your throat as youre waiting on it to load.. :) anyway, thumbs up to Andrew Coffey, one of our 4 designers (including myself) here that was the lead designer on this one. Let us know if you can spot any major display errors or anything. In saying that, we've learnt a lot since this design got locked down (as is the way with this css game - its so hard to keep up! :) so keep an eye out for some major improvements across the whole smh/age sites proper over the next few months. if anyones got any other questions, let us know, i could talk underwater about this stuff ;-) pete * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] A new standards based smh.com.au/technology
Title: RE: [WSG] A new standards based smh.com.au/technology I'd certainly like to use them if you have no objections. of course not, its an important message. gotta get it out there :) we're going to try to put together a whats new about the design page on the site with some more concise detail on it for future designs. that'll hopefully be a good page to point those clients to aswell :) pete -Original Message- From: Nick Lo [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 11:20 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] A new standards based smh.com.au/technology Hi Pete, Funny, I was going to mention this to the list but I hesitated. However, after your reply below I'm glad Tim didn't hesitate. I don't know about anyone else, but your reasons why, coming from such a high profile site, are a great advertisement/example to Australian clients of reasons to use web standards. I'd certainly like to use them if you have no objections. Nick Hi Tim, thanks for yr kind words :) I was going to send a note around to the list when we fixed a few things up with it but just havent had time... ok, so few points: * yep, the new tech section is our first live site using css for layout. any site we build from scratch from this point will be using css for layout. if we're ammending old sites we'll probably use the existing (table) layout, but it'll be a case by case thing. * we were all quite stoked in the design team when we got to the end of the first day and hadnt recieved one email from a user saying the layout was funked up or they couldnt read the text or any of the other usual emails we get when we launch something of a decent profile * the validating thing is difficult - for the reasons you pointed out mostly. I think wired had some similar issues with ad tags etc when they launched. There's probably some other bits of code that arent validating either that we can improve on as we go. the projects move so fast that its very difficult to do anything past making sure it looks decent in IE5, 5.5, 6, Opera, Mozilla, Safari - and then we're away. We value the importance of validation bigtime, but we dont kill ourselves over it. hence we've chosen the 'transitional' approach. * we've learnt more about css layouts since the design was locked down (first week of jan) and while the positioning of the left and right columns are floats in this design, we'll be using absolute positioning for those columns in the future. mainly to get the main content further up in the markup. * to answer How were the 'forces of power' in f2 convinced to invest in web standards and what commitment by management was needed? question: a) we illustrated how much money we'd save on serving costs due to lighter pages. Its hard to predict an exact figure but I think it'd run into hundreds of thousands of dollars once we convert the whole network over to css. b) we are obviously very focussed on budgets etc - its a commercial business - so as sites are needing quicker and quicker redsigns to keep up with the market and advertising needs we had to standardise and make redesigns as simple as possible. c) better markup = better chances of ratings on search engines d) at the moment our 'network' of sites doesnt look much like a network. css is going to help standardise elements and the look feel. e) easier implementation for the dev guys. now that the pages are cut up into little bit size chunks (divs), they arent fooling around with our non-breaking spaces, br tags, col/rowspans in tables other stuff. and that one has just been proven. easiest and smoothest implementation of one of our designs yet. f) pages load faster We're also lucky to have a great very persuasive manager ourselves who was able to put all this into a message that was even more attractive to the wider Management who really just want to know does it look great? and how much did it cost?. In short, we're pretty excited. And a little nervous. Youve gotta understand, this is pretty nerve racking putting such a high profile design up, (i think its over 400,000 unique users a month now for just this section) and having the design community/this list check it out :) you know that feeling you get when you preview something in opera and your heart jumps up into your throat as youre waiting on it to load.. :) anyway, thumbs up to Andrew Coffey, one of our 4 designers (including myself) here that was the lead designer on this one. Let us know if you can spot any major display errors or anything. In saying
[WSG] W3C 1st draft of the CSS media type reader
The first draft of the 'reader' media type. Published to get some early feedback, especially on whether 'reader' is necessary and implementable. http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-css3-reader-20040224/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG] silly question about meta tags
Dumb question but ... Do you repeat your META tags on every page of your site, or only the index page? Thanks Peter * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] IE6 and 3 pixel out --- WARNING
Peter Firminger blurted out: Windows users with low security setting should be aware that the page below has links to load some stuff you really don't want to know about. Be aware... Hopefully this was out of Paul's hands and can be fixed immediately. Paul? The first page isn't too bad, although the IFRAME prevents it from validating, and the style attributes on the images to float them right should probably be moved into the style section. The forced-action.com site though (linked in through that 1x1 IFRAME) is just terrible. It uses frames to put a navigation menu on the left (although the use of frames is understandible since the right frame is to yet another site). That nav menu doesn't even have a doctype. And then it uses tables for layout, a tiny bit of CSS to style the link text, font tags to style the other text, center tag to center the table, and bgcolor and text attributes on the body tag. Definitely a before site. I'd wait until they've gotten a bit further in their standards conversion before visiting. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention the javascript and 1x1 iframe to another page on their site where the possibly nasty javascript lies (I don't know, I didn't look at the tool.html page before the site became unavailable). Cheers, Robert * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] silly question about meta tags
Good question Peter! Absolutely. The metadata is about the page not the site and should be unique (at least the title and description) for every page. Depends on how much metadata you use. This leads to a really deep discussion about metadata that we may have at some point, but in the mean time you may want to take a look at some of the metadata on the pages within http://www.gt.nsw.gov.au/ and then the AGLS Harvest Control List (HCL) at http://www.gt.nsw.gov.au/meta/ and the RDF summary for the other files in the site at http://www.gt.nsw.gov.au/meta/metadata.cfm Everything in this site (apart from the images used in the site design) has a fully compliant AGLS record that is generated in real time. If the client adds or adjusts a page then the embedded data and the HCL (including it's timestamp and version number (within that day)) are updated. I'm really anal about metadata being as correct as possible and others around me often think I go too far. Make it part of your workflow and it's easy! Build it thoughtfully into your CMS and most of it writes itself. Regards, Peter -Original Message- From: Universal Head [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 3:17 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] silly question about meta tags Dumb question but ... Do you repeat your META tags on every page of your site, or only the index page? Thanks Peter * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] silly question about meta tags
Hi Peter, Put them on every page of your site and ideally they should be specific to that page...as in This page is about... type stuff. Nick Dumb question but ... Do you repeat your META tags on every page of your site, or only the index page? Thanks Peter * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] silly question about meta tags
meta tags should generally be added to each page, listing keywords that are accurately relevant to the content on the page. Keep the list short and precise. Cheers Chris Blown PS. Not all search engines read nor care about meta keywords On Thu, 2004-02-26 at 15:16, Universal Head wrote: Dumb question but ... Do you repeat your META tags on every page of your site, or only the index page? Thanks Peter * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] silly question about meta tags
Thanks for the replies. I didn't realise they should be specific to each page - I would set them up once and then repeat on every page. BTW, is there a site somewhere that describes them all? I have a few I use that I only half understand - 'Robots', for example, and 'MSSmartTagsPreventParsing' Peter x-tad-bigger /x-tad-biggerUniversal Head Design That Works. 7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore NSW 2048 Australia T (+612) 9517 1466 F (+612) 9565 4747 E [EMAIL PROTECTED] W www.universalhead.com
RE: [WSG] silly question about meta tags
PS. Not all search engines read nor care about meta keywords In fact, we believe that only one (not too significant) SE looks at them at all and they would be far down the decision list there anyway as they are perfect spambait for spamming the engines with incorrect metadata. There is some stuff in http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/resourcecat16.cfm and also some links on http://webstandardsgroup.org/manage/archive.cfm?uid=6D1B4A92-EAD2-3F25-BD362 3DE0FF80603 (you'll have to log in I'm afraid, can't find it on mail-archive.com, they seem to have lost a lot of stuff.. I'll let them know). P * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] silly question about meta tags
http://literarymoose.info/=/synopsis/metadatum.xhtml http://literarymoose.info/=/destroy/metadatum.xhtml As with most of the Moose's work, this CSS technique only works in the most compliant of browsers. By adding an alternate style sheet you can actually view meta data on screen using this technique, very handy for checking keywords. Cheers Chris Blown On Thu, 2004-02-26 at 15:16, Universal Head wrote: Dumb question but ... Do you repeat your META tags on every page of your site, or only the index page? Thanks Peter * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] silly question about meta tags
Universal Head wrote: Thanks for the replies. I didn't realise they should be specific to each page - I would set them up once and then repeat on every page. BTW, is there a site somewhere that describes them all? I have a few I use that I only half understand - 'Robots', for example, and 'MSSmartTagsPreventParsing' This page: http://vancouver-webpages.com/META/ gives a rather lengthy list, including a lot of proprietary stuff. -- Lindsay Evans. Developer, Red Square Productions. [p] 8596.4000 [f] 8596.4001 [w] www.redsquare.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] silly question about meta tags
Peter You can add your own meta data if you want. (take a look at the macromedia.com website - http://www.macromedia.com/support/flash/ts/documents/fail_load_fp7.htm as an e.g). This makes it really easy for internal tracking of pages, internal searches etc - as Peter F said, the external uses of keywords etc are minimal. If you are using PHP, check out the function get_meta_tags(filename) - it will pull out your meta data and plonk it into an array. The array keys will be the name meta entry, the values will be the content entry. You can then traverse the array in the normal way looking for useful stuff. Cheers James Universal Head wrote: BTW, is there a site somewhere that describes them all? I have a few I use that I only half understand - 'Robots', for example, and 'MSSmartTagsPreventParsing' * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] silly question about meta tags
Interesting - so why do we all religiously add meta descriptions and keywords, not to mention all the other stuff? Curious. Peter On 26/02/2004, at 4:14 PM, Peter Firminger wrote: In fact, we believe that only one (not too significant) SE looks at them at all and they would be far down the decision list there anyway as they are perfect spambait for spamming the engines with incorrect metadata. x-tad-bigger /x-tad-biggerUniversal Head Design That Works. 7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore NSW 2048 Australia T (+612) 9517 1466 F (+612) 9565 4747 E [EMAIL PROTECTED] W www.universalhead.com
[WSG] XHTML Basic 1.0
In looking for some other stuff on W3, I stumbled across this pagehttp://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-basic/ The DTD is "-//W3C//DTD XHTML Basic 1.0//EN" Anyone had anything to do with this? I hadn't heard of it at all (maybe I'm ignorant and should spend more time trawling the W3 site). P
RE: [WSG] silly question about meta tags
Title: Message The following sites describe each of the metadata elements which Australian Government departments and agencies can use to improve the visibility and accessibility of their services and information over the Internet. The National Archives of Australia is the maintenance agency for the AGLS Metadata Standard. http://www.naa.gov.au/recordkeeping/gov_online/agls/summary.html - be sure to browse the links in the yellow box at the foot of the page. The AGLS standard is based upon the leading international online resource discovery metadata standard, the Dublin Core standard(http://dublincore.org/) The National Office for the Information Economy also has a Guide to minimum Web Standards: http://www.noie.gov.au/projects/egovernment/Better_Practice/MWSGuide/Metadata.htm Joanne FlynnWeb ManagerInformation Department Reserve Bank of Australia Visit Australia's central bank website: www.rba.gov.au -Original Message-From: Universal Head [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 26 February 2004 16:09 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [WSG] silly question about meta tags Thanks for the replies. I didn't realise they should be specific to each page - I would set them up once and then repeat on every page. BTW, is there a site somewhere that describes them all? I have a few I use that I only half understand - 'Robots', for example, and 'MSSmartTagsPreventParsing' Peter Universal Head Design That Works. 7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore NSW 2048 Australia T (+612) 9517 1466 F (+612) 9565 4747 E [EMAIL PROTECTED] W www.universalhead.com * This e-mail message (along with any attachments) is intended only for the named addressee and could contain information that is confidential or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any dissemination, copying or use of any of the information is prohibited. Please notify us immediately by return e-mail if you are not the intended recipient and delete all copies of the original message and attachments. This footnote also confirms that this message has been checked for computer viruses. *
RE: [WSG] XHTML Basic 1.0
Yer... XHTML Basic - the only time I've seen it used is in DENG (http://claus.packts.net/deng/, http://mozquito.markuplanguage.net/). Basically this is a light weight browser written in Flash. It supports CSS1 2, SVG, XForms, XFrames and XHTML Basic. So why basic not strict or transitional - I guess these guys weren't keen to have to support all the features of XHTML when people only really use about 30% of it. The emphasis in DENG is that its very light weight - so this kind of makes sense. Basic is there to cater to this type of scenario. Cheers Mark -- Mark Stanton Technical Director Gruden Pty Ltd Tel: 9956 6388 Mob: 0410 458 201 Fax: 9956 8433 http://www.gruden.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] XHTML Basic 1.0
Peter, In looking for some other stuff on W3, I stumbled across this page http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-basic/ The DTD is -//W3C//DTD XHTML Basic 1.0//EN Anyone had anything to do with this? I hadn't heard of it at all (maybe I'm ignorant and should spend more time trawling the W3 site). We have supported it in Style Master since 2000 :-) One of the beauties of XHTML was/is that it was modularised As with CSS from 3 on, rather than being a monolithic standard XHTML was broken into smaller subsets, so that each could be developed independently of other chunks. XHTML Basic, as you are probably no aware, is a subset of XHTML, devised particularly for lightweight devices. I believe XHTML Basic + CSS Mobile Profile (a small subset of CSS) were supposed to be astandards basd way of replacing WAPML (or whatever WAPs htmlish markup language was) HTH, john John Allsopp :: westciv :: software, courses, resources for a standards based web style master blog http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/ http://www.westciv.com/
