Re: Future.....(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs)
Hugh Todd wrote: Scott, you said, If this IS the case, what benefits are we getting as developers for taking on extra headaches in making it W3C compliant (who by the way aren't an international elected body - more of a group that have taken liberty to makeup standards). Who would elect such a body? Web designers? Governments? Users? The UN? True, its just amazing how we blindly follow a cluster of people? based on the fact we hero-worship them in some way or form? What if they actually put concepts to a public vote? the web itself could vote on yes (you couldn't ask for a more diverse separated parallel society), lets abolish/implement xyz or no lets not? In that set a time frame, all votes are final, done. Wonder how a concept like this, in its basic democratic form would impact on future browser development? At the moment most browser development teams probably could only hazard a guess on what features to make w3c compliant and what ones not to (can't do them all in one hit in that or implement new approved standards). To me this would give me the little a guy at least a voice in something, while at the same time giving Browser based technologies out there an actual statistical impact study on what actual new/old issues are hot vs ones aren't furthermore it gives me the little guy who would like to help shape the online language we have come to know and love. I mean, I'm sure the people in the w3c gang are really smart monkeys, but like all clusters of people, politics could end up driving it (whether it be some small hidden demon within who voted No on something purely because the guy who thought it up made a bad XMAS party joke about him)? its why we as a society just fail at coming to a collective decision on topics unless a majority ruling is in fact in place (look to local governments). I dunno, personally i have set reservations on webstandards being set and expected to be followed no questions asked. You can join and contribute ideas to the w3c but i can't find anywhere where i can participate in some way as to how end decisions get made? unless i am an organization that appears to pay for such privilege? Like all open free good ideas, they are great on paper, but it needs money to make them work. So to answer your question, Who would elect such a body why my good man, The web. As it is, we have the major browser manufacturers on board, the guy who invented the web heading it up, and some of the clearest-thinking, most far-sighted people in the web community making contributions that aim to free the web from proprietory chains and dead-end hacks, with as elegant solutions as can be devised. What more could you want? far-sighted? or near-sighted? how do you measure their progress on a daily basis? furthermore what impact are they having on new features? are they simply there for profile sake, are they active? do they embrace new technology with just as much passion as we seem to do? or are they traditional conservative people? ... in other words just because they invented the web many a year ago, is it a big ask for us to follow their lead still? or is it a matter of retiring the old lion and make way for the upstart cub? Scott. Down with proprietory solutions, I say! -Hugh Todd * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: Future.....(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs)
Scott wrote: [quote]I dunno, personally i have set reservations on webstandards being set and expected to be followed no questions asked. You can join and contribute ideas to the w3c but i can't find anywhere where i can participate in some way as to how end decisions get made? unless i am an organization that appears to pay for such privilege?[/quote] If you want to participate please let me know in what manner or group you would like to participate. I'll get you where you need to be. Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com -Original Message- From: Scott Barnes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 12:22 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Future.(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs) Hugh Todd wrote: Scott, you said, If this IS the case, what benefits are we getting as developers for taking on extra headaches in making it W3C compliant (who by the way aren't an international elected body - more of a group that have taken liberty to makeup standards). Who would elect such a body? Web designers? Governments? Users? The UN? True, its just amazing how we blindly follow a cluster of people? based on the fact we hero-worship them in some way or form? What if they actually put concepts to a public vote? the web itself could vote on yes (you couldn't ask for a more diverse separated parallel society), lets abolish/implement xyz or no lets not? In that set a time frame, all votes are final, done. Wonder how a concept like this, in its basic democratic form would impact on future browser development? At the moment most browser development teams probably could only hazard a guess on what features to make w3c compliant and what ones not to (can't do them all in one hit in that or implement new approved standards). To me this would give me the little a guy at least a voice in something, while at the same time giving Browser based technologies out there an actual statistical impact study on what actual new/old issues are hot vs ones aren't furthermore it gives me the little guy who would like to help shape the online language we have come to know and love. I mean, I'm sure the people in the w3c gang are really smart monkeys, but like all clusters of people, politics could end up driving it (whether it be some small hidden demon within who voted No on something purely because the guy who thought it up made a bad XMAS party joke about him)? its why we as a society just fail at coming to a collective decision on topics unless a majority ruling is in fact in place (look to local governments). I dunno, personally i have set reservations on webstandards being set and expected to be followed no questions asked. You can join and contribute ideas to the w3c but i can't find anywhere where i can participate in some way as to how end decisions get made? unless i am an organization that appears to pay for such privilege? Like all open free good ideas, they are great on paper, but it needs money to make them work. So to answer your question, Who would elect such a body why my good man, The web. As it is, we have the major browser manufacturers on board, the guy who invented the web heading it up, and some of the clearest-thinking, most far-sighted people in the web community making contributions that aim to free the web from proprietory chains and dead-end hacks, with as elegant solutions as can be devised. What more could you want? far-sighted? or near-sighted? how do you measure their progress on a daily basis? furthermore what impact are they having on new features? are they simply there for profile sake, are they active? do they embrace new technology with just as much passion as we seem to do? or are they traditional conservative people? ... in other words just because they invented the web many a year ago, is it a big ask for us to follow their lead still? or is it a matter of retiring the old lion and make way for the upstart cub? Scott. Down with proprietory solutions, I say! -Hugh Todd * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: Future.....(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs)
Lee Roberts wrote: Scott wants to know who voted the W3C the ruling authority. That was me! 20 years on the *net gave me that right. Oh so you were the one? hehehehe Seriously, though, who voted the ISO or IETF to be authoritative enough to establish rules for people using the Internet and World Wide Web, oh yes there is a difference? Who established the rules for the World Wide Web which ethical designers and developers attempt to follow? If web development is your job, don't you think you should be good enough to follow the rules established? If you were a construction builder wouldn't you have to follow rules? As for iframe, I don't like it either. I've used it once, but the page it was pulling in was a flash communications presentation for my radio show. As for frames, they were the most ignorant thing ever created. Personally, they should be allowed to exist today, but for some reason we can't get rid of them by some developers. Well, to answer that i dare you to walk into any web-based enterprise that has a DHTML intranet, and say the following words: Get rid of IFRAMES, and use something else Wear some padding, as the fall from the window could be high. hehe Seriously, lets get into the whole iframe use. 508 stuff, not up to speed on, but most DHTML based applications would be a luxury to get 508 compatible. SOE are a saviour to the DHTML breed, and while i try to make as much as my applications close to being accessible with usability it just doesn't happen. IFRAME = Internal frame, if we are to emulate the client-top generation of software within a browser, its the one little trick we have left. As for using them on the web? well i used them many years ago for my personal site, simply because it was easy at the time (mind my site is horrible, needs bad need of update/doover). Making an actual public website today, seems to be one big juggling act imho, and i'm glad i'm not really required to be a public facade developer and more a SOE. You have to keep in mind, there are two main clusters using the web browser / html language. Internal Corporations and Public Users, while one thing works for one, ther other percentage works for another etc. The real problem with frames is people don't know how to use them in the first place. Second, they lack any real features for accessibility. For SEO purposes they are really bad. Frames were allowed in the beginning because browsers didn't have very good caching abilities. Now that they do, you don't need them. They won't help. That or i'd put it in another way in that they existed for the ability to dynamically render information on screen, while keeping other parts static reducing overall latency and downloads. Perhaps that will help some. Scrolling DIVs at least put all the information on the same page, unless you plan on pulling in another page. In my opinion the latter is a mistake. Search engines say all content must be visible, it never says you can't scroll a DIV to see all the information. Scrolling Divs also come with a higher penalty in that some browsers (namely Internet Explorer) pretty much will cain your memory if it contains large amounts of information, whilst an iframe for various unknown reasons to me, seem to keep the memory balance lower. Good and valid points though. Regards Scott Barnes Sincerely, Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com -Original Message- From: Hugh Todd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 11:27 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Future.(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs) Scott, you said, If this IS the case, what benefits are we getting as developers for taking on extra headaches in making it W3C compliant (who by the way aren't an international elected body - more of a group that have taken liberty to makeup standards). Who would elect such a body? Web designers? Governments? Users? The UN? As it is, we have the major browser manufacturers on board, the guy who invented the web heading it up, and some of the clearest-thinking, most far-sighted people in the web community making contributions that aim to free the web from proprietory chains and dead-end hacks, with as elegant solutions as can be devised. What more could you want? Down with proprietory solutions, I say! -Hugh Todd * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The
[WSG] Help Testing site on Mac - IE Safari
Hi Group, If anyone with a Mac has a spare sec, would you mind taking a quick look at this site template and letting me know if there are any major rendering probs in Mac (IE 5+ and Safari). http://acson.go4.gotdns.com/ The sites is XHTML Transitional and has been tested in IE 5.5+, Opera 7 Firefox 0.7. Many many thanks in advance. Cheers, Luke W www.go4.com.au E [EMAIL PROTECTED] P 03 9530 6658 F 03 9530 6435 M 0418 893 116 PO Box 147 Sandringham VIC 3191 Location 14B Warleigh Grv Brighton VIC 3186 * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: Future.....(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs)
awww... that's a bit rough on IFRAMES (and framsets in general)... we're building web applications, not web pages per se. We're being influenced by various windows UI's (more than just MS Windows) because that's the standard that people expect. We're also pushing ahead as far as a web platform will allow (using DHTML without going too far down the Flash UI route). to do that with dynamic content and without iframes/framsets is just silly. Look at your Windows Explorer. you see more than one independent pane that interacts. Look at (admittedly old hat) Outlook Web Access (OWA - a clunky but workable ASP web front for Outlook). you just can't build that sort of functionality without frames. you *might* with JS remoting calls changing the innerHTML of divs but it would be such a massive headache to maintain such a convoluted page structure (logic, not layout). I waited years for IFRAMES to be cross browser (well, a couple anyway). Don't you dare take them away now... just my 2c (while bored writing db connection code) barry.b -Original Message- From: Lee Roberts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 8 July 2004 3:56 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Future.(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs) Scott wants to know who voted the W3C the ruling authority. That was me! 20 years on the *net gave me that right. Seriously, though, who voted the ISO or IETF to be authoritative enough to establish rules for people using the Internet and World Wide Web, oh yes there is a difference? Who established the rules for the World Wide Web which ethical designers and developers attempt to follow? If web development is your job, don't you think you should be good enough to follow the rules established? If you were a construction builder wouldn't you have to follow rules? As for iframe, I don't like it either. I've used it once, but the page it was pulling in was a flash communications presentation for my radio show. As for frames, they were the most ignorant thing ever created. Personally, they should be allowed to exist today, but for some reason we can't get rid of them by some developers. The real problem with frames is people don't know how to use them in the first place. Second, they lack any real features for accessibility. For SEO purposes they are really bad. Frames were allowed in the beginning because browsers didn't have very good caching abilities. Now that they do, you don't need them. They won't help. Perhaps that will help some. Scrolling DIVs at least put all the information on the same page, unless you plan on pulling in another page. In my opinion the latter is a mistake. Search engines say all content must be visible, it never says you can't scroll a DIV to see all the information. Sincerely, Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com -Original Message- From: Hugh Todd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 11:27 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Future.(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs) Scott, you said, If this IS the case, what benefits are we getting as developers for taking on extra headaches in making it W3C compliant (who by the way aren't an international elected body - more of a group that have taken liberty to makeup standards). Who would elect such a body? Web designers? Governments? Users? The UN? As it is, we have the major browser manufacturers on board, the guy who invented the web heading it up, and some of the clearest-thinking, most far-sighted people in the web community making contributions that aim to free the web from proprietory chains and dead-end hacks, with as elegant solutions as can be devised. What more could you want? Down with proprietory solutions, I say! -Hugh Todd * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: Future.....(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs)
Lee Roberts wrote: Scott wrote: [quote]I dunno, personally i have set reservations on webstandards being set and expected to be followed no questions asked. You can join and contribute ideas to the w3c but i can't find anywhere where i can participate in some way as to how end decisions get made? unless i am an organization that appears to pay for such privilege?[/quote] If you want to participate please let me know in what manner or group you would like to participate. I'll get you where you need to be. Yes, I'll forward that on in a bit, but is this a who you need to know in order to participate or is it an open forum? I mean, i'm talking things like basic polls, we login through a serious of identification checks to validate you are one person, click vote yes/no log out? Is this possible for individuals? Scott * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] [OT] Employment opportunity in Surry Hills, NSW - Reply off list
We have a position vacant for a Front End/HTML Developer in Surry Hills, NSW. The right person for this position will be a highly organised, motivated and creative individual, able to work to deadlines, work in a team environment and have excellent web site development skills. You will require experience with developing standards conforming quality web sites. Essential skills include knowledge of current web standards including HTML, DHTML, CSS and Javascript. Experience in information architecture and Vignette /Java experience would be an advantage. Please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] or reply directly for further information and do not reply to this message on list. Permission for this OT message granted by Peter Firminger * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] WAI: successful Australian (or global) examples
Hey there crew, I'm putting in a tender for some government work and one of the requirements is some successful WAI sites that I've been involved in. I've actually not been involved in a single one and I think this requirement is a little stringent. Has anyone out there been involved in a successful example? It doesn't have to be Australian even... I just need some examples (or lack of) so I can point out to them that the requirement is a little harsh. A bientot, Benvolio Ben Webster --Conversant Studios[EMAIL PROTECTED]www.conversantstudios.com.au
Re: [WSG] Help Testing site on Mac - IE Safari
On 7/8/04 12:09 AM Luke Moulton [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: If anyone with a Mac has a spare sec, would you mind taking a quick look at this site template and letting me know if there are any major rendering probs in Mac (IE 5+ and Safari). http://acson.go4.gotdns.com/ I don't see any probs on Safari 1.2.x although red links with other orange graphics make my brain tumor roll over and squirm. ;-) The footer is a little messy also and there are at least two fonts in the footer. Colons and spacing are a bit weird. Still, Safari renders it all just fine. Rick Faaberg * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: Future.....(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs)
Scott, from an accessibility perspective, I put http://www.seowebsitepromotion.com/enigma_log.htm together the other day. It advocates the move to accessibility and standards from a humanist perspective. Now a more pragmatic approach - Sound like you're looking for an ROI reward-based argument. Well ... in the UK alone, silver surfers are a 14 ?billion market. Many will take advantage of text resizing in their browsers to make surfing a little more tolerable. Accessibility is build upon W3C standards. Get those sorted and the rest is easy. The point being, the more standardised your markup, the more traffic, from search engines whose spiders can more easily index the copy, to users who can more easily navigate, view and, if ecommerce, buy products ... and who will more readily bookmark the site simply because it is usable. Now throw in people with various impairments and the equation becomes more than just viable, it is vital to capture and retain their spending power by building sites to which they will gladly return and exercise their right to vote accessible. Now ... look to the future and we have a whole bunch of PDAs, WAP-enabled cellphones, tablet PCs and emergent technology whose screen sizes will vary but whose OS's (albeit proprietary in many instances) will accept X(HT)ML feeds. This is the present and the future. We're talking big, accessible, standards-compliant bucks. Without standards (irrespective of the who, why and wherefore of the originating bodies) web development would ramble on in the wilderness with numerous competing technologies vying for position and developers writing disparate browser-specific markup with a total disregard for the issues faced by either impaired users or those who elect to use non mainstream browsers like the Geckos, Opera or whatever. In my view, it's a falsehood to suggest that standards-compliant markup is a challenge to embrace. In comparison to using FrontPage or similar WYSIWYG editors then, yes, having to develop W3C compliant code and get your hands dirty is more time consuming and requires a greater knowledge base and effort on the part of the developer. But Web development, professional development, is not an easy task. Like any skill, their is a period of apprenticeship ... and some body - our peers and dare I say betters - must set the entrance and exit exams - the standards - to which we aspire. I take an active part in a few of these bodies because 1., I believe in what is happening within the industry, the move towards Time Berners-Lee's vision of a fully accessible communications medium available to all nations and individuals on the planet and 2., I like being paid to offer my clients a greater return on investment than they would otherwise expect from non-compliant development. It's good common business sense and a courtesy to develop for as great an audience as reasonably practicable. Mike Pepper Accessible Web Developer (after a good night's sleep, and a weird dream) www.seowebsitepromotion.com Administrator www.gawds.org -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Scott Barnes Sent: 08 July 2004 05:27 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Future.(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs) Q. I've been on the List for a while now, and while i love the webstandards concept, i'm finding it hard to believe that the web will adjust itself to suite extensions like XHTML? The reason i say this is if we were to make a concious decision to move forward, it would be years 5+ before we would even see a shift in its coding standards alone, not to mention implementing STRICT. If this IS the case, what benefits are we getting as developers for taking on extra headaches in making it W3C compliant (who by the way aren't an international elected body - more of a group that have taken liberty to makeup standards). To me, tags like iframe are being used and quite a lot and do do away with them, is in many ways the kiss of death for movements like this, as you will be faught all the way. Even though the tag is a wrapper (defined in DTD) in many ways for the HTML Object it still leaves me wondering why tags like iframe aren't valid? to me they seemed harmless along with tags like B to STRONG so forth. Not to mention the web is looking to shift away from browsers, and move more to native XML packets to run its presentation layer on applications (ie MXML, AXML, XFORMS etc). It just seems lately to be a futile battle, and extensive one and yet no real gains? why would a developer go out of his/her way to learn XHTML? I personally use strict XHTML as its the only real DTD that fixes the Box Model bug in both IE Mozilla (consistencey). Its got added pain, but i'm used to it now.. but others well they'd go too hard pile Regards Scott Barnes http://www.mossyblog.com Brian Cummiskey wrote: Scott Barnes wrote: Are you absolutly positive about iframes not being available in strict XHTML? because I've got
Re: [WSG] Help Testing site on Mac - IE Safari
Luke FYI The latest versions are: Firefox 0.9.1 Opera 7.52 Unlike IE users, mozilla/opera users tend to upgrade to the newest release quickly so theres no point testing old firefox releases Also you see what your site looks like in Safari 1.2 at http://www.danvine.com/icapture/ Hope that helps -- Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy Mobile: +61 (0)403 8000 27 http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav Luke Moulton wrote: Hi Group, If anyone with a Mac has a spare sec, would you mind taking a quick look at this site template and letting me know if there are any major rendering probs in Mac (IE 5+ and Safari). http://acson.go4.gotdns.com/ The sites is XHTML Transitional and has been tested in IE 5.5+, Opera 7 Firefox 0.7. Many many thanks in advance. Cheers, Luke W www.go4.com.au E [EMAIL PROTECTED] P 03 9530 6658 F 03 9530 6435 M 0418 893 116 PO Box 147 Sandringham VIC 3191 Location 14B Warleigh Grv Brighton VIC 3186 * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: Future.....(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs)
Scott, Yes, I'll forward that on in a bit, but is this a who you need to know in order to participate or is it an open forum? I have to say I think this open forum idea would be so completely unwieldy as to completely bog down progress for ever. It takes some time and mental application to even get a web standards approach, let alone be able to say anything intelligent about how to propel it forwards. What we have is a set of driving principles, which are evolving over time. The way I see it, there are two strong drivers to standards. 1) The things web designers would like to be able to do in web pages, like positioning content, controlling type, or (looking to emerging standards) opacity, or new ways to create borders, or whatever else floats to the top of the general wishlist that designers express to each other and to the W3C. 2) Achieving these things in ways that promote accessibility, adaptability to various user agents, and whistle-clean HTML code. The fact that there may be some quite limited group of people who actually decide how to implement these things does not worry me. I know that if they get it wrong there'll be hell to pay from people like me, so they have a strong incentive to get it right. There's a difference, though, between giving them stick because they don't adhere to the principles outlined above, and criticizing them for recommending the deprecation of technologies that don't fit with the grand vision in driver 2. If web design were a completely professional occupation like law or medicine, maybe we could elect our own standards body. But the present arrangement, with Sir Tim at the helm, the browser manufacturers represented and the creme de la creme of web thinkers getting involved by a process of recognition and sound contributions, seems to me to deliver a good result. It's not too dissimilar to open source software. Proposals for improvements, peer discussion, and the best implementation wins. -Hugh Todd * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] XHTML 2.0 Browser
Hey guys. I remember seeing this a while back, but for the life of me I can't find it now. It's an experimental browser that supports everything currently included in the XHTML 2.0 spec. Does anyone know what it's called? -Noa * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] XHTML 2.0 Browser
Dont know if this is what you mean but the W3C's browser Amaya is the most bleeding edge browser available http://www.w3.org/Amaya/ The current release, Amaya 8.5, supports HTML 4.01, XHTML 1.0, XHTML Basic, XHTML 1.1, HTTP 1.1, MathML 2.0, many CSS 2 features, and includes SVG support (transformation, transparency, and SMIL animation on OpenGL platforms). You can display and partially edit XML documents. It's an internationalized application. -- Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy Mobile: +61 (0)403 8000 27 http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav Noa Groveman wrote: Hey guys. I remember seeing this a while back, but for the life of me I can't find it now. It's an experimental browser that supports everything currently included in the XHTML 2.0 spec. Does anyone know what it's called? -Noa * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Help Testing site on Mac - IE Safari
Very nice. All looks good in Safari 1.2.2 and IE5.2. Mary On 8 Jul 2004, at 08:09, Luke Moulton wrote: Hi Group, If anyone with a Mac has a spare sec, would you mind taking a quick look at this site template and letting me know if there are any major rendering probs in Mac (IE 5+ and Safari). http://acson.go4.gotdns.com/ The sites is XHTML Transitional and has been tested in IE 5.5+, Opera 7 Firefox 0.7. Many many thanks in advance. Cheers, Luke W www.go4.com.au E [EMAIL PROTECTED] P 03 9530 6658 F 03 9530 6435 M 0418 893 116 PO Box 147 Sandringham VIC 3191 Location 14B Warleigh Grv Brighton VIC 3186 * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Microsoft IE Team available for an online chat
Hi everyone.. I really hope this is not off-topic, but I came across a link on The Web Standards Project's Recent Buzz column, as shown on http://webstandards.org/ It goes: Ever wished you could give your opinion directly to the IE team at Microsoft? Here's your chance! They're making themselves available for an online chat Thursday, July 8, at 10:00 am Pacific. If you are on the East coast of Australia, it equates to 3AM Friday 9th of July (see http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=7day=8hour=10m in=0sec=0p1=234 for your local time). Ralph * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] XHTML 2.0 Browser
Noa Groveman wrote: Hey guys. I remember seeing this a while back, but for the life of me I can't find it now. It's an experimental browser that supports everything currently included in the XHTML 2.0 spec. Does anyone know what it's called? XHTML 2.0 is still in draft status. There is still discussion regarding the status of various elements. For example, they're thinking of renaming hr. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG]headers
Thanks Mike, Drew, Lee, I think you'll appreciate the result. It contains most of your suggestions. Still working on the content though, with a long way to go. graphic design, copy writing, peer testing, user testing, etc. http://homepage.mac.com/backtoslack/websemantics/ once again thanks for clearing up these issues guys. mike foskett ** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ** winmail.dat
RE: [WSG]headers
Blimey, Mike, very smart :o) Will look forward to the finished result. Looking good :o) -Original Message- From: Mike Foskett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Mike Foskett Sent: 08 July 2004 12:09 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG]headers Thanks Mike, Drew, Lee, I think you'll appreciate the result. It contains most of your suggestions. Still working on the content though, with a long way to go. graphic design, copy writing, peer testing, user testing, etc. http://homepage.mac.com/backtoslack/websemantics/ once again thanks for clearing up these issues guys. mike foskett ** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ** attachment: winmail.dat
RE: [WSG]headers
Nothing wrong with a length where appropriate but double length is probably trying everyone's patience so I'll be slightly rude and top post while trying virtuously to be brief. It's an interesting argument you make that css was given to us to make pages look and perform as we want them to. This is perhaps where I go wrong. I thought css was an integral part of an attempt to create a web in which both machine and human are capable of responding to the nuances of language, Berners-Lee, Hendler and Lassila's semantic web. In this endeavor, the specs for html and xhtml define the structure of pages. Meanings are set for element like headers, lists, paragraphs, divisions, etc which instruct browsers and standards aware search engines on how that element is to be interpreted. In our example, what the levels of headers indicate about the relative importance of some content in relationship to a larger whole (the section and perhaps the site but not necessarily). As outlined in the standards these structural rules provide a sophisticated level of nuance for machine interpretation. CSS works in two dimensions. First with positioning it implements the structural elements of the specs. So using h1 solely to influence seo is simply wrong and should actually result in poor ranking since the content would be disjointed and confused, assuming a standards aware search engine. Secondly, css provides the human oriented nuances, the semantics. Font style, sizes, colors, gewgaws and whirligigs of all types are focused on human senses not machine code. WCAG provides alternatives for those for whom other semantic meanings are necessary. It seems to me that if w3c is the touchstone then other standards are either incorporated in its standards or they should be regarded as suggested codes of behavior not as mandatory. So ISO may give us a version of best practices but it isn't obligatory. What should be obligatory is that browsers which don't follow standards display pages with the dreaded unanticipated results. Not because the browser is built to do that but because pages are properly written and won't display as intended in a browser that doesn't follow the rules. End users would quickly tire of a browser that produced gibberish, in a more perfect world. The ability of authors alone to bring about such a state of affairs is somewhat problematic as I think we'd all agree. If this isn't how it is intended to work, then we're wasting our time discussing semantics (which we are defining wrong, but that's a different discussion). It's every standard for itself and the devil take the hindmost. We know where that leads. Search engines are more of the same. Should search engines dictate standards or should standards dictate search engines? That's a long term educational process which may well be settled by what kind of user agents emerge either as part of browsers or as complimentary technologies. But in any case, standards should never be compromised for seo. (Is this the place for the conspiratorial wink and nod?). Since I've failed at brevity let me mention your book publishing example in closing. You claim it is rare to have chapter or book names on each page yet you cite an example in which 3 of the 4 books you pick up have just that. My survey confirms exactly what is used is publisher dependent but they all tend to use something. So by that analogy using site name as h1 on every page is acceptable but is not obligatory. drew -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lee Roberts Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 2:26 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG]headers Dang, we certainly don't want to go to sleep these days. I wake up and am caught in a mire. Instead of writing several emails, I'm going to try and cover everyone's issues here. I hope I don't miss anything or get people confused. Drew, thank you for the kind words. I will agree the commentary about some people should have remained out of the standards. You will notice a major difference with the forth coming standards. There should not be any more garbage editorials except in the internal notes. Internal notes as you are probably aware are open to the public as well. Many people will use headings as a means to help elevate their pages in the search engines. Technically there is no problems with that. The only time problems will arise is when they say they are using headings to classify sections of their page when, in fact, is it more obvious that the heading is used as a font declaration. Using the book analogy is the easiest way to explain how headings should be used. Sure there are books that include the book or chapter title on some or all of the pages within a chapter. However, that is extremely rare. It does appear to be a publishers choice - not an author's choice. With four books in my immediate reach, three have the book title on the left page and the chapter title on the
RE: [WSG] font size question
The style refers to the font size and the line-height. It reflects the
traditional printing sizing of text which was type size and leading ie
9/10pt Times.
Regards
giles
I've been looking at some sites to see how they determine their font size.
em, keyword, px, ...
So, I looked at the following sites and noticed a new tag (for me) in the
body
Zeldman
font: small/1.4
Eric Meyers
body {font: 0.84em/1.3
Mezzoblue
font: 12px/19px
How is the split font size being used.
Thanks
Ted
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RE: Future.....(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs)
Why don't you participate in one of the working groups? That would lend your experience and possibly make things better. Lee Roberts -Original Message- From: Scott Barnes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 1:06 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Future.(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs) Lee Roberts wrote: Scott wrote: [quote]I dunno, personally i have set reservations on webstandards being set and expected to be followed no questions asked. You can join and contribute ideas to the w3c but i can't find anywhere where i can participate in some way as to how end decisions get made? unless i am an organization that appears to pay for such privilege?[/quote] If you want to participate please let me know in what manner or group you would like to participate. I'll get you where you need to be. Yes, I'll forward that on in a bit, but is this a who you need to know in order to participate or is it an open forum? I mean, i'm talking things like basic polls, we login through a serious of identification checks to validate you are one person, click vote yes/no log out? Is this possible for individuals? Scott * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: Future.....(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs)
Scott Barnes wrote: I will say that the user of Object tag was a new one for me.. is there any compatibility issues out there for using it that you know off? I understand your thinking, and the whole it's the cool thing to do but it honestly does have its advantages if used correctly. The SEO side of things, as well as more portable, easier to update, cleaner code base. As for the object tag, I'm not familiar with any of its limitations, if any. To me, it sounds like there could be some issues with it. I'm not too familair with it, but I remember there being a different method for both IE and NN browsers back in the day- I just can't recall what it was. Something about codebase vs something else- It's early morning, and i'm not fully awake yet. need mroe coffee :) But, the problem with the object tag is that it relies a lot of the user's browser more than anything to actually pull of the inclusion- and again, to me, that's server side territory. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: Future.....(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs)
Now why did you go and do that? Now I have to give someone else a history lesson this week. JavaScript was created in 1994 by the Netscape Communications Corporation. CSS was created in 1996 and released as a specification December 17, 1996. DHMTL was created in 1996 when CSS was released. There are many that think JavaScript or JScript allowed the creation of DHTML. Regrettably, that was never the case. If you visit any of those DHTML scripting sites you'll notice they do not include any form of CSS. JavaScript cannot change HTML, only CSS can change HTML. Therefore, CSS makes HTML dynamic. DOM was created in 1998. [quote]Dynamic HTML is a term used by some vendors to describe the combination of HTML, style sheets and scripts that allows documents to be animated. The W3C has received several submissions from members companies on the way in which the object model of HTML documents should be exposed to scripts. These submissions do not propose any new HTML tags or style sheet technology. The W3C DOM Activity is working hard to make sure interoperable and scripting-language neutral solutions are agreed upon.[quote] So, any shop or company that uses hack-programmers claiming to know DHTML and they want to give me a bunch of JavaScript, I simply tell them to take a hike off a short pier. There are a few things we cannot do with CSS that we can do with JavaScript, but certainly validating a form prior to submitting is not dynamic HTML. Neither is providing a clock. Nor JavaScript menus. Use CSS for menus and you got it made in the dynamics of HTML. Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com PS: I'll let someone else change the subject if they like. -Original Message- From: Scott Barnes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 12:50 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Future.(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs) Lee Roberts wrote: Scott wants to know who voted the W3C the ruling authority. That was me! 20 years on the *net gave me that right. Oh so you were the one? hehehehe Seriously, though, who voted the ISO or IETF to be authoritative enough to establish rules for people using the Internet and World Wide Web, oh yes there is a difference? Who established the rules for the World Wide Web which ethical designers and developers attempt to follow? If web development is your job, don't you think you should be good enough to follow the rules established? If you were a construction builder wouldn't you have to follow rules? As for iframe, I don't like it either. I've used it once, but the page it was pulling in was a flash communications presentation for my radio show. As for frames, they were the most ignorant thing ever created. Personally, they should be allowed to exist today, but for some reason we can't get rid of them by some developers. Well, to answer that i dare you to walk into any web-based enterprise that has a DHTML intranet, and say the following words: Get rid of IFRAMES, and use something else Wear some padding, as the fall from the window could be high. hehe Seriously, lets get into the whole iframe use. 508 stuff, not up to speed on, but most DHTML based applications would be a luxury to get 508 compatible. SOE are a saviour to the DHTML breed, and while i try to make as much as my applications close to being accessible with usability it just doesn't happen. IFRAME = Internal frame, if we are to emulate the client-top generation of software within a browser, its the one little trick we have left. As for using them on the web? well i used them many years ago for my personal site, simply because it was easy at the time (mind my site is horrible, needs bad need of update/doover). Making an actual public website today, seems to be one big juggling act imho, and i'm glad i'm not really required to be a public facade developer and more a SOE. You have to keep in mind, there are two main clusters using the web browser / html language. Internal Corporations and Public Users, while one thing works for one, ther other percentage works for another etc. The real problem with frames is people don't know how to use them in the first place. Second, they lack any real features for accessibility. For SEO purposes they are really bad. Frames were allowed in the beginning because browsers didn't have very good caching abilities. Now that they do, you don't need them. They won't help. That or i'd put it in another way in that they existed for the ability to dynamically render information on screen, while keeping other parts static reducing overall latency and downloads. Perhaps that will help some. Scrolling DIVs at least put all the information on the same page, unless you plan on pulling in another page. In my opinion the latter is a mistake. Search engines say all content must be visible, it never says you can't scroll a DIV to see all the information.
RE: Future.....(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs)
Well, to answer that i dare you to walk into any web-based enterprise that has a DHTML intranet, and say the following words: Get rid of IFRAMES, and use something else Wear some padding, as the fall from the window could be high. Scott Barnes I think this demonstrates why having the Web vote on what should be standards falls flat. Wallace Stegner wrote, I don't know what I like as much as I like what I know. Meaning, in this context, that people are likely to maintain what they know and are comfortable with rather than to move forward into concepts that force them to change. I work in a university and my guess if put to a vote we would have outlawed any sort of CSS-P and probably any CSS at all. These folks grew up on tables and font tags and are loathe to give them up. Sometimes it is good to have people with vision to lead people where they would not go themselves. Joe Huggins * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: Future.....(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs)
Hugh Todd wrote: I mean, I'm sure the people in the w3c gang are really smart monkeys, but like all clusters of people, politics could end up driving it (whether it be some small hidden demon within who voted No on something purely because the guy who thought it up made a bad XMAS party joke about him)? its why we as a society just fail at coming to a collective decision on topics unless a majority ruling is in fact in place (look to local governments). The way i see it is, if what the W3 distributes as a DTD can effect the way EVERY major browser on the market renders layout, who else really is there to follow? I can put: !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//JoeSchmoe//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN http://www.joeschmoe.org//xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd; html xml:lang=en lang=en xmlns=http://www.joeschmoe.org/1999/xhtml; and well, guess what- We're back in quirks mode on most browsers. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] font size question
Giles Clark wrote: font: 12px/19px How is the split font size being used. Thanks You might be asking something else here, but: 12px/19px equates to 12px font size with a 19px line height * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG]headers
That's about as brief as my answers. [quote] The Semantic Web provides a common framework that allows data to be shared and reused across application, enterprise, and community boundaries.[/quote] I'm afraid that has nothing to do with human interaction. It is simply the sharing of information between programs and businesses. [quote]Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) is a simple mechanism for adding style (e.g. fonts, colors, spacing) to Web documents.[/quote] Seems pretty straight forward to me. Regardless of whether a person optimizes their heading tags or not makes no difference to me. It can be done and still make sense. Heading tags are meant to be scanning points. Not to harp on Kim's page, but the use of h3 was clearly a font declaration. Clearly no form of scanning capabilities were granted by their use. Drew [quote]You claim it is rare to have chapter or book names on each page yet you cite an example in which 3 of the 4 books you pick up have just that.[/quote] Lee [quote]With four books in my immediate reach, three have the book title on the left page and the chapter title on the right page.[/quote] If we examine the two statements as a computer would, we find a difference. Your statement clearly indicates that the book and chapter titles are on EACH page, meaning both elements. My statement clearly says the book title is on the left page and the chapter title is on the right page; both are not on each page. With boolean algebra your statement requires both to be true; mine requires only one to be true. I hope this clears up some issues. Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com -Original Message- From: Trusz, Andrew [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 6:02 AM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: [WSG]headers Nothing wrong with a length where appropriate but double length is probably trying everyone's patience so I'll be slightly rude and top post while trying virtuously to be brief. It's an interesting argument you make that css was given to us to make pages look and perform as we want them to. This is perhaps where I go wrong. I thought css was an integral part of an attempt to create a web in which both machine and human are capable of responding to the nuances of language, Berners-Lee, Hendler and Lassila's semantic web. In this endeavor, the specs for html and xhtml define the structure of pages. Meanings are set for element like headers, lists, paragraphs, divisions, etc which instruct browsers and standards aware search engines on how that element is to be interpreted. In our example, what the levels of headers indicate about the relative importance of some content in relationship to a larger whole (the section and perhaps the site but not necessarily). As outlined in the standards these structural rules provide a sophisticated level of nuance for machine interpretation. CSS works in two dimensions. First with positioning it implements the structural elements of the specs. So using h1 solely to influence seo is simply wrong and should actually result in poor ranking since the content would be disjointed and confused, assuming a standards aware search engine. Secondly, css provides the human oriented nuances, the semantics. Font style, sizes, colors, gewgaws and whirligigs of all types are focused on human senses not machine code. WCAG provides alternatives for those for whom other semantic meanings are necessary. It seems to me that if w3c is the touchstone then other standards are either incorporated in its standards or they should be regarded as suggested codes of behavior not as mandatory. So ISO may give us a version of best practices but it isn't obligatory. What should be obligatory is that browsers which don't follow standards display pages with the dreaded unanticipated results. Not because the browser is built to do that but because pages are properly written and won't display as intended in a browser that doesn't follow the rules. End users would quickly tire of a browser that produced gibberish, in a more perfect world. The ability of authors alone to bring about such a state of affairs is somewhat problematic as I think we'd all agree. If this isn't how it is intended to work, then we're wasting our time discussing semantics (which we are defining wrong, but that's a different discussion). It's every standard for itself and the devil take the hindmost. We know where that leads. Search engines are more of the same. Should search engines dictate standards or should standards dictate search engines? That's a long term educational process which may well be settled by what kind of user agents emerge either as part of browsers or as complimentary technologies. But in any case, standards should never be compromised for seo. (Is this the place for the conspiratorial wink and nod?). Since I've failed at brevity let me mention your book publishing example in closing. You claim it is rare to have chapter
Re: [WSG] font size question
It's the shorthand version of the various font attributes, and you can
pile several font properties into it (in the following order):
font-style
font-variant
font-weight
font-size/line-height
font-family
As usual, you can find all the CSS details at the w3 site:
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/fonts.html#font-shorthand
On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:41:57 +0100, Giles Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The style refers to the font size and the line-height. It reflects the
traditional printing sizing of text which was type size and leading ie
9/10pt Times.
Regards
giles
I've been looking at some sites to see how they determine their font size.
em, keyword, px, ...
So, I looked at the following sites and noticed a new tag (for me) in the
body
Zeldman
font: small/1.4
Eric Meyers
body {font: 0.84em/1.3
Mezzoblue
font: 12px/19px
How is the split font size being used.
Thanks
Ted
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
*
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
*
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
*
Re: Future.....(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs)
Hugh Todd wrote: Who would elect such a body? Web designers? Governments? Users? The UN? As it is, we have the major browser manufacturers on board, the guy who invented the web heading it up, and some of the clearest-thinking, most far-sighted people in the web community making contributions that aim to free the web from proprietory chains and dead-end hacks, with as elegant solutions as can be devised. What more could you want? I was going to say somethig similar, but since you said it already, I'll just ad a quote from Benjamin Franklin: Democracy is two wolves and lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: Future.....(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs)
Brian, Just to deny that I wrote this. The attribution belongs to Scott Barnes, I think. My belief is that the W3C is much more accountable than Scott seems to imagine. -Hugh (Brian Cummiskey wrote: Hugh Todd wrote: I mean, I'm sure the people in the w3c gang are really smart monkeys, but like all clusters of people, politics could end up driving it (whether it be some small hidden demon within who voted No on something purely because the guy who thought it up made a bad XMAS party joke about him)? its why we as a society just fail at coming to a collective decision on topics unless a majority ruling is in fact in place (look to local governments). * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: Future.....(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs)
Lee: - If we examine the two statements as a computer would, we find a difference. Your statement clearly indicates that the book and chapter titles are on EACH page, meaning both elements. My statement clearly says the book title is on the left page and the chapter title is on the right page; both are not on each page. With boolean algebra your statement requires both to be true; mine requires only one to be true. Lee, did you see Bicentennial Man? :o) Mike Pepper (cheerful) Accessible Web Developer www.seowebsitepromotion.com Administrator www.gawds.org * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: Future.....(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs)
Hugh Todd wrote: Brian, Just to deny that I wrote this. The attribution belongs to Scott Barnes, I think. My belief is that the W3C is much more accountable than Scott seems to imagine. -Hugh Opps- Thunderbird handels multiple quoted messages poorly. I blame it fully for that error :) Couldn't possibly be user error :X * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG]headers
That's about as brief as my answers. [quote] The Semantic Web provides a common framework that allows data to be shared and reused across application, enterprise, and community boundaries.[/quote] Here's the full quote Lee: The Semantic Web provides a common framework that allows data to be shared and reused across application, enterprise, and community boundaries. It is a collaborative effort led by W3C with participation from a large number of researchers and industrial partners. It is based on the Resource Description Framework (RDF), which integrates a variety of applications using XML for syntax and URIs for naming. The Semantic Web is an extension of the current web in which information is given well-defined meaning, better enabling computers and people to work in cooperation. -- Tim Berners-Lee, James Hendler, Ora Lassila, The Semantic Web, Scientific American, May 2001 I'm afraid that has nothing to do with human interaction. It is simply the sharing of information between programs and businesses. Here's the full quote Lee: The Semantic Web provides a common framework that allows data to be shared and reused across application, enterprise, and community boundaries. It is a collaborative effort led by W3C with participation from a large number of researchers and industrial partners. It is based on the Resource Description Framework (RDF), which integrates a variety of applications using XML for syntax and URIs for naming. The Semantic Web is an extension of the current web in which information is given well-defined meaning, better enabling computers and people to work in cooperation. -- Tim Berners-Lee, James Hendler, Ora Lassila, The Semantic Web, Scientific American, May 2001 Now to me that says it has a lot to do with people, as do the examples offered in the original article. In fact the article says the point of the exercise it to make cooperation easier and more meaningful between machines and people and thereby between people. RDF has a universal definition of data with the understanding that it is the humans who give the data final meaning. RDF makes it possible for machines to exchange data within a structured framework (ontology) that encompasses human meanings. Those meanings are both universal in ontologies and personal in the value chains used to instruct personal software agents. It's not about business, it's about life of which business is only a part. Lee wrote: [quote]Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) is a simple mechanism for adding style (e.g. fonts, colors, spacing) to Web documents.[/quote] Seems pretty straight forward to me. And so it is. Point taken that saying css-p implements html or xhtml was improper since both are implementions. Css adds the gewgaws. Lee wrote: If we examine the two statements as a computer would, we find a difference. Your statement clearly indicates that the book and chapter titles are on EACH page, meaning both elements. My statement clearly says the book title is on the left page and the chapter title is on the right page; both are not on each page. With boolean algebra your statement requires both to be true; mine requires only one to be true. == Failure as an editor. If I wrote both on each page, I intended to write either on each page. So we are in agreement on this phenomena but not on how it applies to headers. Oh well. drew * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: Future.....(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs)
While your giving a history lesson, do you know when Sun first introduced Java Server Pages. Just need to check someone in not telling fibs on their CV. Please visit the PPA Website at: www.ppa.org.uk Rob O'NeillWeb Team ManagerPrescription Pricing AuthorityBridge House152 Pilgrim StreetNewcastle Upon TyneNE1 6SN email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: (0191) 203 5246ext: 5246 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/07/2004 13:45:15 Now why did you go and do that? Now I have to give someone else a historylesson this week._javascript_ was created in 1994 by the Netscape Communications Corporation. CSS was created in 1996 and released as a specification December 17, 1996. DHMTL was created in 1996 when CSS was released. There are many that think_javascript_ or JScript allowed the creation of DHTML. Regrettably, that wasnever the case. If you visit any of those DHTML scripting sites you'llnotice they do not include any form of CSS._javascript_ cannot change HTML, only CSS can change HTML. Therefore, CSSmakes HTML dynamic. DOM was created in 1998.[quote]"Dynamic HTML" is a term used by some vendors to describe thecombination of HTML, style sheets and scripts that allows documents to beanimated. The W3C has received several submissions from members companies onthe way i n which the object model of HTML documents should be exposed toscripts. These submissions do not propose any new HTML tags or style sheettechnology. The W3C DOM Activity is working hard to make sure interoperableand scripting-language neutral solutions are agreed upon.[quote]So, any shop or company that uses hack-programmers claiming to know DHTMLand they want to give me a bunch of _javascript_, I simply tell them to take ahike off a short pier.There are a few things we cannot do with CSS that we can do with _javascript_,but certainly validating a form prior to submitting is not dynamic HTML.Neither is providing a clock. Nor _javascript_ menus. Use CSS for menus andyou got it made in the dynamics of HTML.Lee Robertshttp://www.roserockdesign.comhttp://www.applepiecart.comPS: I'll let someone else change the subject if they like.- Original Message -From: Scott Barnes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 12:50 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: Future.(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs)Lee Roberts wrote:Scott wants to know who voted the W3C the ruling authority.That was me! 20 years on the *net gave me that right. Oh so you were the one? heheheheSeriously, though, who voted the ISO or IETF to be authoritative enough to establish rules for people using the Internet and World Wide Web, oh yes there is a difference? Who established the rules for the World Wide Web which ethical designers and developers attempt to follow?If web development is your job, don't you think you should be good enough to follow the rules established? If you were a construction builder wouldn't you have to f ollow rules? As for iframe, I don't like it either. I've used it once, but the page it was pulling in was a flash communications presentation for my radioshow.As for frames, they were the most ignorant thing ever created. Personally, they should be allowed to exist today, but for some reason we can't get rid of them by some developers. Well, to answer that i dare you to walk into any web-based enterprise thathas a DHTML intranet, and say the following words:"Get rid of IFRAMES, and use something else"Wear some padding, as the fall from the window could be high.heheSeriously, lets get into the whole iframe use. 508 stuff, not up to speedon, but most DHTML based applications would be a luxury to get 508compatible. SOE are a saviour to the DHTML breed, and while i try to make asmuch as my applications close to being accessible with usability it justdoesn't happe n.IFRAME = Inter nal frame, if we are to emulate the client-top generation ofsoftware within a browser, its the one little trick we have left. As forusing them on the web? well i used them many years ago for my personal site,simply because it was easy at the time (mind my site is horrible, needsbad need of update/doover). Making an actual public website today,seems to be one big juggling act imho, and i'm glad i'm not really requiredto be a public facade developer and more a SOE.You have to keep in mind, there are two main clusters using the web browser/ html language. Internal Corporations and Public Users, while one thingworks for one, ther other percentage works for another etc.The real problem with frames is people don't know how to use them in the first place. Second, they lack any real features for accessibility. For SEO purposes they are really bad.Frames were allowed in the beginning becaus e browsers didn't have v ery good caching abilities. Now that they do, you don't need them. They won'thelp. That or i'd put it in another
Re: Future.....(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs)
brian cummiskey wrote: Opps- Thunderbird handels multiple quoted messages poorly. I blame it fully for that error :) Couldn't possibly be user error :X That's funny. I usually find it does a better job than most. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG]headers
Let's look at the Introduction to the Semantic Web. [quote] Facilities to put machine-understandable data on the Web are becoming a high priority for many communities. The Web can reach its full potential only if it becomes a place where data can be shared and processed by automated tools as well as by people. For the Web to scale, tomorrow's programs must be able to share and process data even when these programs have been designed totally independently. The Semantic Web is a vision: the idea of having data on the web defined and linked in a way that it can be used by machines not just for display purposes, but for automation, integration and reuse of data across various applications.[/quote] Now, let us examine the last sentence of that quote. [quote]The Semantic Web is a vision: the idea of having data on the web defined and linked in a way that it can be used by machines not just for display purposes, but for automation, integration and reuse of data across various applications.[/quote] It clearly explains that the semantic web is about sharing information across applications and machines. Humans interact with the information by reading and understanding the information. Then turning to their associates and sharing the ideas and concepts. Machines and applications did not have access to that type of interaction until the Semantic web. Prior to RDF, XML and the like it was virtually impossible to share information across platforms and applications. Well, it was not exactly impossible; it was more a security risk. So, now we have the Semantic web that allows a shopping cart owner to send an XML feed to Froogle. Or, we have RSS which allows us to share news feeds between news sources. Even weblogs allow RSS feeds to occur now. All that joined together allows computers to use the same information for various applications. Even business data can be shared without the concern that the database would be hacked and confidential information released. The Semantic web has nothing to do with how headings are used on a web page. I hope this clears that little issue up. Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com -Original Message- From: Trusz, Andrew [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 8:57 AM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: [WSG]headers That's about as brief as my answers. [quote] The Semantic Web provides a common framework that allows data to be shared and reused across application, enterprise, and community boundaries.[/quote] Here's the full quote Lee: The Semantic Web provides a common framework that allows data to be shared and reused across application, enterprise, and community boundaries. It is a collaborative effort led by W3C with participation from a large number of researchers and industrial partners. It is based on the Resource Description Framework (RDF), which integrates a variety of applications using XML for syntax and URIs for naming. The Semantic Web is an extension of the current web in which information is given well-defined meaning, better enabling computers and people to work in cooperation. -- Tim Berners-Lee, James Hendler, Ora Lassila, The Semantic Web, Scientific American, May 2001 I'm afraid that has nothing to do with human interaction. It is simply the sharing of information between programs and businesses. Here's the full quote Lee: The Semantic Web provides a common framework that allows data to be shared and reused across application, enterprise, and community boundaries. It is a collaborative effort led by W3C with participation from a large number of researchers and industrial partners. It is based on the Resource Description Framework (RDF), which integrates a variety of applications using XML for syntax and URIs for naming. The Semantic Web is an extension of the current web in which information is given well-defined meaning, better enabling computers and people to work in cooperation. -- Tim Berners-Lee, James Hendler, Ora Lassila, The Semantic Web, Scientific American, May 2001 Now to me that says it has a lot to do with people, as do the examples offered in the original article. In fact the article says the point of the exercise it to make cooperation easier and more meaningful between machines and people and thereby between people. RDF has a universal definition of data with the understanding that it is the humans who give the data final meaning. RDF makes it possible for machines to exchange data within a structured framework (ontology) that encompasses human meanings. Those meanings are both universal in ontologies and personal in the value chains used to instruct personal software agents. It's not about business, it's about life of which business is only a part. Lee wrote: [quote]Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) is a simple mechanism for adding style (e.g. fonts, colors, spacing) to Web documents.[/quote]
RE: [WSG] WAI: successful Australian (or global) examples
I have, but they have been when working for companies, and often only a section of a large site. Here's a few people who do actually work in this area, tendering for and delivering WAI sites for Government. Try contacting them directly. I'm sure they would be willing to help. Sandra Vassallo tel: (02) 9810 2216mob: 0414 765 881 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] e-bility web: http://www.e-bility.com Inclusive IT: http://www.inclusiveit.com.au/ Gian Sampson-Wild http://www.purpletop.com.au/ Also Andrew Arch and Brian Hardy from (contact details at the bottom of the second link) http://www.visionaustralia.org.au/ http://www.visionaustralia.org.au/webaccessibility/workshops/ -Original Message-From: Ben WebsterSent: Thursday, 8 July 2004 5:18 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [WSG] WAI: successful Australian (or global) examples Hey there crew, I'm putting in a tender for some government work and one of the requirements is some successful WAI sites that I've been involved in. I've actually not been involved in a single one and I think this requirement is a little stringent. Has anyone out there been involved in a successful example? It doesn't have to be Australian even... I just need some examples (or lack of) so I can point out to them that the requirement is a little harsh. A bientot, Benvolio Ben Webster --Conversant Studios[EMAIL PROTECTED]www.conversantstudios.com.au
RE: Future.....(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs)
-Original Message- From: Hugh Todd Scott, you said, If this IS the case, what benefits are we getting as developers for taking on extra headaches in making it W3C compliant (who by the way aren't an international elected body - more of a group that have taken liberty to makeup standards). Who would elect such a body? Web designers? Governments? Users? The UN? As it is, we have the major browser manufacturers on board, the guy who invented the web heading it up, and some of the clearest-thinking, most far-sighted people in the web community making contributions that aim to free the web from proprietory chains and dead-end hacks, with as elegant solutions as can be devised. What more could you want? Down with proprietory solutions, I say! -Hugh Todd Agreed, and if you read the discussion on the WAI-GL (not something I would recommend, cause it can be incredibly boring), IMHO, those people working on the WAI standards are working very hard to be inclusive of every possibility, and the last thing they want to do is make life difficult for developers. That is the intention at least. It's a very difficult challenge to address accessibility requirements and and provide a set of open development standards. Geoff Deering * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: Future.....(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs)
JSP was release June 2, 1999. Anything prior to that and they misrepresent themselves. http://java.sun.com/features/2000/06/time-line.html I hope that helps. Lee Roberts From: Robert O'Neill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 9:48 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: Future.(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs) While your giving a history lesson, do you know when Sun first introduced Java Server Pages. Just need to check someone in not telling fibs on their CV. Please visit the PPA Website at: www.ppa.org.uk Rob O'NeillWeb Team ManagerPrescription Pricing AuthorityBridge House152 Pilgrim StreetNewcastle Upon TyneNE1 6SN email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: (0191) 203 5246ext: 5246 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 08/07/2004 13:45:15 Now why did you go and do that? Now I have to give someone else a historylesson this week._javascript_ was created in 1994 by the Netscape Communications Corporation. CSS was created in 1996 and released as a specification December 17, 1996. DHMTL was created in 1996 when CSS was released. There are many that think_javascript_ or JScript allowed the creation of DHTML. Regrettably, that wasnever the case. If you visit any of those DHTML scripting sites you'llnotice they do not include any form of CSS._javascript_ cannot change HTML, only CSS can change HTML. Therefore, CSSmakes HTML dynamic. DOM was created in 1998.[quote]"Dynamic HTML" is a term used by some vendors to describe thecombination of HTML, style sheets and scripts that allows documents to beanimated. The W3C has received several submissions from members companies onthe way i n which the object model of HTML documents should be exposed toscripts. These submissions do not propose any new HTML tags or style sheettechnology. The W3C DOM Activity is working hard to make sure interoperableand scripting-language neutral solutions are agreed upon.[quote]So, any shop or company that uses hack-programmers claiming to know DHTMLand they want to give me a bunch of _javascript_, I simply tell them to take ahike off a short pier.There are a few things we cannot do with CSS that we can do with _javascript_,but certainly validating a form prior to submitting is not dynamic HTML.Neither is providing a clock. Nor _javascript_ menus. Use CSS for menus andyou got it made in the dynamics of HTML.Lee Robertshttp://www.roserockdesign.comhttp://www.applepiecart.comPS: I'll let someone else change the subject if they like.- Original Message -From: Scott Barnes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 12:50 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: Future.(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs)Lee Roberts wrote:Scott wants to know who voted the W3C the ruling authority.That was me! 20 years on the *net gave me that right. Oh so you were the one? heheheheSeriously, though, who voted the ISO or IETF to be authoritative enough to establish rules for people using the Internet and World Wide Web, oh yes there is a difference? Who established the rules for the World Wide Web which ethical designers and developers attempt to follow?If web development is your job, don't you think you should be good enough to follow the rules established? If you were a construction builder wouldn't you have to f ollow rules?As for iframe, I don't like it either. I've used it once, but the page it was pulling in was a flash communications presentation for my radioshow.As for frames, they were the most ignorant thing ever created. Personally, they should be allowed to exist today, but for some reason we can't get rid of them by some developers. Well, to answer that i dare you to walk into any web-based enterprise thathas a DHTML intranet, and say the following words:"Get rid of IFRAMES, and use something else"Wear some padding, as the fall from the window could be high.heheSeriously, lets get into the whole iframe use. 508 stuff, not up to speedon, but most DHTML based applications would be a luxury to get 508compatible. SOE are a saviour to the DHTML breed, and while i try to make asmuch as my applications close to being accessible with usability it justdoesn't happe n.IFRAME = Inter nal frame, if we are to emulate the client-top generation ofsoftware within a browser, its the one little trick we have left. As forusing them on the web? well i used them many years ago for my personal site,simply because it was easy at the time (mind my site is horrible, needsbad need of update/doover). Making an actual public website today,seems to be one big juggling act imho, and i'm glad i'm not really requiredto be a public facade developer and more a SOE.You have to keep in mind, there are two main clusters using the web browser/ html language. Internal Corporations and Public Users, while one
[WSG] Does anybody know an expandable vertical css/js menu based on uls?
Hi Folks! Could one of you please point me to a vertical menu solution based on css/js and semantically structured by ul/li's? I'd love to have a solution that opens a sublevel-ul when clicked on a toplevel navigation item. It would need 4-5 sublevels... I know this is a lot to ask for, but maybe somebody knows a webstandard - konform solution to that bugger ;) Thanks alot in advance! Best regards, Gerd Schoder * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Does anybody know an expandable vertical css/js menu based on uls?
Sorry I forgot to mention: The sublevels need to be opened below the toplevel element. Something easily done on a server-side basis, but I'd need it on a flat-file-stupid system. Thanks again! Best regards, Gerd Schoder Gerhard Schoder wrote: Hi Folks! Could one of you please point me to a vertical menu solution based on css/js and semantically structured by ul/li's? I'd love to have a solution that opens a sublevel-ul when clicked on a toplevel navigation item. It would need 4-5 sublevels... I know this is a lot to ask for, but maybe somebody knows a webstandard - konform solution to that bugger ;) Thanks alot in advance! Best regards, Gerd Schoder * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG]headers
That's am extremely salient perspective. Data of itself is a nonsense without reference frameworks. Data - information - knowledge. It's transition interfaces which are vital to the user such that the interface mechanisms are transparent. I see the W3C as an aggregate experience born of necessity. I have neither the mental agility, focus luxury or - importantly - financial comfort cushion with which to pursue pure vision to a goal. Which is why I will trust my more fortunate and adept peers to guide and set global standards -- which I will adopt in good faith. The need to rationalise a coherent, global information interchange mechanism has, I believe, been largely addressed by W3C and X(HT)ML (SOAP excluded). Boy do I wish such standards were more than merely emergent in 1996. I had to drive and develop a 1/4 billion forecasting system, viable and proved across mainframe/pc/cellphone and laptop environments. My solution: CSV, comma separated variable files. For all of our discussion on standards and the interpretation of the letter of the compliant law, we still must deliver cross-spectrum applications to disparate hardware and software. The minutia is very interesting; but my clients' eyes glaze. Mike Pepper (knackered) Accessible Web Developer www.seowebsitepromotion.com Administrator www.gawds.org -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Trusz, Andrew Sent: 08 July 2004 19:25 To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: [WSG]headers -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lee Roberts Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 12:10 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG]headers Let's look at the Introduction to the Semantic Web. [quote] Facilities to put machine-understandable data on the Web are becoming a high priority for many communities. The Web can reach its full potential only if it becomes a place where data can be shared and processed by automated tools as well as by people. For the Web to scale, tomorrow's programs must be able to share and process data even when these programs have been designed totally independently. The Semantic Web is a vision: the idea of having data on the web defined and linked in a way that it can be used by machines not just for display purposes, but for automation, integration and reuse of data across various applications.[/quote] Now, let us examine the last sentence of that quote. [quote]The Semantic Web is a vision: the idea of having data on the web defined and linked in a way that it can be used by machines not just for display purposes, but for automation, integration and reuse of data across various applications.[/quote] === How about we look at the second sentence of the first paragraph The Web can reach its full potential only if it becomes a place where data can be shared and processed by automated tools as well as by people. You insist on making this about machines when even the w3c which is primarily concerned with how to make the machine end of it works keeps inserting people. Yes the machines and applications will process data, writ large, but it will be done as a result of the value-chains and proofs requested by the humans. More Lee: Prior to RDF, XML and the like it was virtually impossible to share information across platforms and applications. Well, it was not exactly impossible; it was more a security risk. So, now we have the Semantic web that allows a shopping cart owner to send an XML feed to Froogle. Or, we have RSS which allows us to share news feeds between news sources. Even weblogs allow RSS feeds to occur now. All that joined together allows computers to use the same information for various applications. Even business data can be shared without the concern that the database would be hacked and confidential information released. = We'll have a semantic web which allows the shopping cart user to check the bona fides of the merchant and to check the reliability of the product using rdf and xml perhaps rendered in xml, html, or xhtml. And we can check other proofs from self selected trusted sources to evaluate the content of the RSS news feed. It isn't about just shuffling data it's about evaluating the data, giving it human related meaning. It is about humans using an effective, efficient tool which employs common taxonomies and inference rules to make an effective ontology. Data has no meaning with interpretation. Make a pile of data. It does nothing. It says nothing. It's inert until it's interpreted. The semantic web both gets the data based on shared rules and then possibly applies additional human chosen interpretive filters. It is, to use an overworked and usually misapplied word, a synergistic process. But then many things involving people have unanticipated results. drew
RE: [WSG] Does anybody know an expandable vertical css/js menu based on uls?
Are you looking for a dropdown from the top? (the submenus are vertical), check out son of suckerfish http://www.htmldog.com/articles/suckerfish/dropdowns/ or are you looking for a flyout menu from the leftnav? My mind is blank right now on flyouts. Ted -Original Message- From: Gerhard Schoder [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 11:47 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Does anybody know an expandable vertical css/js menu based on uls? Sorry I forgot to mention: The sublevels need to be opened below the toplevel element. Something easily done on a server-side basis, but I'd need it on a flat-file-stupid system. Thanks again! Best regards, Gerd Schoder Gerhard Schoder wrote: Hi Folks! Could one of you please point me to a vertical menu solution based on css/js and semantically structured by ul/li's? I'd love to have a solution that opens a sublevel-ul when clicked on a toplevel navigation item. It would need 4-5 sublevels... I know this is a lot to ask for, but maybe somebody knows a webstandard - konform solution to that bugger ;) Thanks alot in advance! Best regards, Gerd Schoder * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Does anybody know an expandable vertical css/js menu based on uls?
Not sure if this meets all your requirements, but I'm loving the menu presented in Eric Meyer's latest More Eric Meyers on CSS. I'm working with it on a test page now. The page is constantly being fiddled with, but you can look at the nav here: www.pcc.com/testing/client2.html. I highly recommend both of the Meyers on CSS books. Barb Gerhard Schoder wrote: Hi Folks! Could one of you please point me to a vertical menu solution based on css/js and semantically structured by ul/li's? I'd love to have a solution that opens a sublevel-ul when clicked on a toplevel navigation item. It would need 4-5 sublevels... I know this is a lot to ask for, but maybe somebody knows a webstandard - konform solution to that bugger ;) Thanks alot in advance! Best regards, Gerd Schoder * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * -- Barbara Dozetos Democracy is two wolves and a lamb Web Developer voting on what to have for lunch. Physician's Computer CompanyLiberty is a well-armed lamb 1 Main St., Ste 7 contesting the vote. Winooski, VT 05404 --Benjamin Franklin [EMAIL PROTECTED] 802-846-5532 * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Does anybody know an expandable vertical css/js menu based on uls?
Hi Ted! Thanks for your hint! I found and examined suckerfish but unfortunately it's not exactly what i need. I should have thought of sending the structure of the (supposedly) lefthand navigation i need: |-Top 1 |-Top 2 |--SubTop2.1 |--SubTop2.2 |-SubSubTop2.2.1 |-SubSubTop2.2.2 |-SubSubSubTop2.2.2.1 |-SubSubSubTop2.2.2.2 |-SubSubTop2.2.3 |-Top 3 |-Top 4 It's a lot of pages and there would be no way to restructure the site. So we would need this kind of navigation. It used to be realized in Frontpage MSHTML but I convinced them to move to XHMTL. Now I gotta solve those problems =) Thanks again, Gerd Ted Drake wrote: Are you looking for a dropdown from the top? (the submenus are vertical), check out son of suckerfish http://www.htmldog.com/articles/suckerfish/dropdowns/ or are you looking for a flyout menu from the leftnav? My mind is blank right now on flyouts. Ted -Original Message- From: Gerhard Schoder [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 11:47 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Does anybody know an expandable vertical css/js menu based on uls? Sorry I forgot to mention: The sublevels need to be opened below the toplevel element. Something easily done on a server-side basis, but I'd need it on a flat-file-stupid system. Thanks again! Best regards, Gerd Schoder Gerhard Schoder wrote: Hi Folks! Could one of you please point me to a vertical menu solution based on css/js and semantically structured by ul/li's? I'd love to have a solution that opens a sublevel-ul when clicked on a toplevel navigation item. It would need 4-5 sublevels... I know this is a lot to ask for, but maybe somebody knows a webstandard - konform solution to that bugger ;) Thanks alot in advance! Best regards, Gerd Schoder * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Does anybody know an expandable vertical css/js menu based on uls?
Gerhard Schoder wrote: Sorry I forgot to mention: The sublevels need to be opened below the toplevel element. Something easily done on a server-side basis, but I'd need it on a flat-file-stupid system. Thanks again! Hi Folks! Could one of you please point me to a vertical menu solution based on css/js and semantically structured by ul/li's? I'd love to have a solution that opens a sublevel-ul when clicked on a toplevel navigation item. It would need 4-5 sublevels... I know this is a lot to ask for, but maybe somebody knows a webstandard - konform solution to that bugger ;) check out http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listutorial/sub01.htm * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Does anybody know an expandable vertical css/js menu based on uls?
Hi Brian! Thanks alot for your link, it's almost everything I need, except for that i would like a klick on a top nav item to toggle the visibility of the containing sub nav items... That would be --- perfekt =) Thanks again, Best Regards, Gerd brian cummiskey wrote: check out http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listutorial/sub01.htm * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Does anybody know an expandable vertical css/js menu based on uls?
take a look at the latest alistapart article: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/horizdropdowns/ On donderdag, 8 juli 2004 21:28, Gerhard Schoder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Ted! Thanks for your hint! I found and examined suckerfish but unfortunately it's not exactly what i need. I should have thought of sending the structure of the (supposedly) lefthand navigation i need: |-Top 1 |-Top 2 |--SubTop2.1 |--SubTop2.2 |-SubSubTop2.2.1 |-SubSubTop2.2.2 |-SubSubSubTop2.2.2.1 |-SubSubSubTop2.2.2.2 |-SubSubTop2.2.3 |-Top 3 |-Top 4 It's a lot of pages and there would be no way to restructure the site. So we would need this kind of navigation. It used to be realized in Frontpage MSHTML but I convinced them to move to XHMTL. Now I gotta solve those problems =) Thanks again, Gerd Ted Drake wrote: Are you looking for a dropdown from the top? (the submenus are vertical), check out son of suckerfish http://www.htmldog.com/articles/suckerfish/dropdowns/ or are you looking for a flyout menu from the leftnav? My mind is blank right now on flyouts. Ted -Original Message- From: Gerhard Schoder [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 11:47 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Does anybody know an expandable vertical css/js menu based on uls? Sorry I forgot to mention: The sublevels need to be opened below the toplevel element. Something easily done on a server-side basis, but I'd need it on a flat-file-stupid system. Thanks again! Best regards, Gerd Schoder Gerhard Schoder wrote: Hi Folks! Could one of you please point me to a vertical menu solution based on css/js and semantically structured by ul/li's? I'd love to have a solution that opens a sublevel-ul when clicked on a toplevel navigation item. It would need 4-5 sublevels... I know this is a lot to ask for, but maybe somebody knows a webstandard - konform solution to that bugger ;) Thanks alot in advance! Best regards, Gerd Schoder * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] the disappearing tabs
Hello
I could use some help finding the solution to this mystery.
I'm working on a complete overhaul of our web site with css and yes the company has
completely bought into the idea (cheering finally subsides)
However, it's design by committee and I'm continually making new prototypes. With the
help of my co-worker, Marc, who wrestled the re-design out of marketing's hands and
into it (standing ovation finally subsides), we are up to version 11.2 of the
prototype. Here's my question.
I just had to add another tab to the topnav. I'm using the tabs design that was a
modification of clagnut, sorry about the dropped reference in my style sheet, after so
many revisions, it got erased. However it's just a prototype at this point. I'm
rambling.
Here's my problem. It is only showing 6 of the 8 tabs. They are in the code and they
all worked spiffy until I added an extra tab. If you look at the code there is a tab
id=a6 and a7 but these two are not showing up. I can't figure it out.
http://www.timeshareinsurance.com/v11.2/product.html
This isn't life or death, I'm sure I will have 2 or 3 more versions before the real
coding begins. But I thought it would be a good challenge for those that can spot
missing code.
I also can't get the css to validate and can't find the reason. It validates as xhtml.
Below is the appropriate coding:
ul id=topnav
lia href=index.html id=aXtitle=go to home pageHome/a/li
lia href=why.html id=a1title=Why should you buy travel insurance?Why Travel
Insurance/a/li
lia href=product.html id=a2class=hereProducts/a
ul id=subnav
lia href=travinsur.htmlTravel Insurance/a/li
lia href=vg40.html class=hereVacation Guarantee/a/li
lia href=timeshare.html title=find out about travel insurance
coveragesTimeshare Insurance/a/li
lia href=airfare.html title=this page lists specific certificates and
policies for individual statesAirfare Guarantee/a/li
lia href=club.html title=Travel insurance definiitinsVacation
Club/a/li
/ul
/li
lia href=help.html id=a3title=Get help finding what you needHelp/a/li
lia href=info.html id=a4title=travel insurance and csa informationTravel
Info/a/li
lia href=about.html id=a5title=about CSA Travel ProtectionAbout Us/a/li
lia href=claims.html id=a6Claims/a/li
lia href=agents.html id=a7 class=travelagentAgent Resources/a/li
/ul
/*globalnav*/
ul#topnav {margin:0 0 45px;padding: 0;list-style: none;border: none;}
#topnav li {display: block; margin: 0; padding: 0; float:left;}
#topnav a { display:block; color:#444; text-decoration:none; background:
url(../lia.gif) no-repeat; margin:0; padding: 0.2em 2.4em 0.2em 36px;
border-right: 1px solid #aaa; position: relative; font: bold 11px helvetica,
arial, geneva, lucida, sans-serif;}
#topnav a#a0, #topnav a#aX{ left: 0px;}
#topnav a#a1 { left: -30px;}
#topnav a#a2 { left: -60px;}
#topnav a#a3 { left: -90px;}
#topnav a#a4 { left: -120px;}
#topnav a#a5 { left: -150px;}
#topnav a#a6 { left: -180px;}
#topnav a#a7 { left: -210px; background: url(../liagent.gif) no-repeat;}
#topnav a:hover {background: url(../liahover.gif) no-repeat;}
#topnav a.here {position:relative; z-index:102;background:
url(../liahover.gif) no-repeat; border-right: 1px solid #777; padding: 0.2em 1em
0.2em 35px; margin: 0 4px 0 0;}
#topnav a.here#a7, #topnav a:hover#a7 {background: url(liagenthover.gif);}
/* sub nav*/
ul#subnav {position:absolute; z-index:101;margin: -1px 0 0; left: 0px;
padding: 1px 0px 3px 30px; background: #bbb; border-top:1px solid #fff;
border-bottom:1px solid #999; width: 760px;}
ul#subnav.agentsubnav {background-color:#c9c;}
#subnav li {position:relative; z-index:102;display: block; margin: 0;
padding: 0; float:left;}
#subnav a {color:#fff; display:block; text-decoration:none; margin:0; padding: 2px
12px 2px 10px; background: transparent; background-image: none; border: 0 none;}
#subnav a:hover {color:#444;background: transparent; background-image: none;
border: 0 none;}
#subnav a.here {color:#444; background: transparent; background-image: none;
border: 0 none;margin:0; padding: 2px 12px 2px 10px;}
Thanks
Ted
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
*
RE: [WSG]headers
How we got on the subject of the Semantic web from headers I don't know. I think we're somehow missing the entire point of the Semantic web. Even prior to the development of RDF, OWL, XML and the like people were able to partake and consume the information available from various sources. It was not until RDF, OWL, XML and the like were computers able to understand and process the information across platform, computer, and businesses. If IBM wanted to share information with HP they had to allow access to files or provide files to HP. IBM would not, for security reasons, share their database with HP. Chase Manhattan Bank may want to share information with Australia National Bank (may be fictitious). For them to do it they had to send files, tapes or printed material. For Chase Manhattan Bank to share information with the credit reporting agencies they had to send tapes. The Semantic web has changed that. Any computer connected to the WWW can share information with another computer through Resource Description Framework which uses XML to share information. So, no longer to we have to keep our information to ourselves. We can share that information by dynamically creating an XML file from a database and granting access to that file using the Universal Resource Identifier. Still doesn't have anything to do with a heading tag. Think of it as an early form of the artificial intelligence we see in movies such as Terminator 3. Eventually computers will be able to talk to each other which is what makes a semantic web. Semantic is defined basically as understanding the meaning of words. Relating to the meaning of written or spoken words. http://www.google.com/search?hl=enie=UTF-8q=define%3AsemanticbtnG=Google+ Search Computers so far do not understand the meaning of written or spoken words. They can be programmed to respond to verbal commands of one word, but they don't understand them. We're not in the land of Star Trek yet. Hopefully this clears it up. Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] (Understandable) Myths about the W3C WAI
Hi, I'd just like to try and dispel a few commonly held myths about the processes of standards and the groups that form them at the W3C, and in particular, the W3C WAI Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group. I raise these issues, because it is quite understandable that many people come to certain conclusions about the W3C WAI process, such as the views Scott Barnes expresses here (http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg%40webstandardsgroup.org/msg06709.html). So I'd just like to put forward these points. 1. It may appear that groups like the W3C WAI Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group are some group of elite people in an ivory tower somewhere, but actually it is an open group, and you can join it today, if you want. There are three types of people on that group; 1) members that are placed there by companies that are sponsors of the W3C, 2) invited experts 3) people who want to get involved in the process. The third group make up the majority of WAI, and there are a number of such people on that group from Melbourne. They are the little people (hobbits), like the rest of us. If this is something you really want to contribute too, and make your voice heard, as a developer, whatever, here is the charter, the guide to participation and the How to Join. http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/new-charter-2000.html#participants http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/howto-join-wg.html You don't have to attend the Face to Face meetings, and it is not compulsory to attend the weekly teleconferences (but you are required to email a Regret Cannot Attend). If you are concerned about the direction of WAI and the work on WCAG2 (http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/) you should note in that document that it is a working draft. Being a working draft it is open to public comment. The group definitely wants your feedback and concerns, they do not want to it to get to Recommendation and there be oversights. They really do work hard at try to make these recommendations none restrictive on developers. Just look at the discussion list for WAI-GL to verify this. The fifth paragraph of Status of this Document states; quote The Working Group welcomes comments on this document at [EMAIL PROTECTED] The archives for this list are publicly available. Archives of the WCAG WG mailing list discussions are also publicly available. /quote So you can get involved and provide feedback without having to join the W3C WAI GL. Does the W3C WAI GL work with the manufactures of User Agents (browsers)? They certainly do (http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/). And they have a set of guidelines that User Agents are *meant* to comply with (http://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG10/). Here is a list of participants (http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/wai-ua-members.html). If you feel some companies on this list are asleep at the wheel, then raise that issue with them and ask them what the hell are they doing if they are on that list and not working on trying to comply with those standards. There is also the UAAG FAQ http://www.w3.org/2002/10/uaag10-faq/ You can evaluate user agents conformance http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2002/08/eval. You can also get involved with the Authoring Tool Accessibility Guidelines Working Group (http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU/) and their working draft of ATAG2 (http://www.w3.org/TR/ATAG20/). This too is open for public comment. You can help by doing Authoring Tool Evaluations (http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU/2002/tools). quote Please send comments about this document to the public mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (public archives). Please note that this document may contain typographical errors. It was published as soon as possible since review of the content itself is important, although noting typographical errors is also helpful. /quote Also see http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Overview.html Another way to get involved in the whole process is to work as a group to put pressure on User Agent and Authoring Tools developers to meet the standards. One way of doing this would be to review UAs and ATs and apply the test criteria as set down in these standards and publish them on the web site associated with this list or the Web Standards Project (or your own blog), whatever. If you really want to find out more about the W3C and WAI, how it works, how it interacts, about the standards, blah, blah, blah, the Melbourne Group could invite Charles McCathieNevile (http://www.w3.org/People/Charles/) to one of their meetings when he is in Melbourne. Another Australian W3C person worth contacting and getting to present is http://www.w3.org/People/Dean/. Dean is the SVG man. Everyone's experience of the W3C is different, I can see both the good and bad sides. Mostly I prefer that there is one standards body for the web, but I also am getting disillusioned by the plethora of standards, which I feel are beginning to fragment the web as a whole. I also can understand why there are break away movements like WhatWG (http://www.whatwg.org/), especially when they are trying to make a
RE: [WSG] (Understandable) Myths about the W3C WAI
Geoff, Thanks for the contribution and clarification. Actually, I suspect most all of us embrace the efforts of W3C. I have no gripes and I will follow the recommendations because I can have little to offer of value. I contribute elsewhere towards standards; I also know my limitations. Thanks, Mike Pepper Accessible Web Developer () www.seowebsitepromotion.com Administrator www.gawds.org * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] (Understandable) Myths about the W3C WAI
Geoff, Great post. Nope, I'm not in an ivory tower. Just an old guy. Anyone that wants to participate can. Like Geoff pointed out you do not need to make the teleconferences. However, if you wish to use IRC you can and save yourself a long distance phone charge. Many people outside the USA use IRC. Lee Roberts -Original Message- From: Geoff Deering [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 2:37 PM To: WebStandardsGroup Subject: [WSG] (Understandable) Myths about the W3C WAI Hi, I'd just like to try and dispel a few commonly held myths about the processes of standards and the groups that form them at the W3C, and in particular, the W3C WAI Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group. I raise these issues, because it is quite understandable that many people come to certain conclusions about the W3C WAI process, such as the views Scott Barnes expresses here (http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg%40webstandardsgroup.org/msg06709.html). So I'd just like to put forward these points. 1. It may appear that groups like the W3C WAI Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group are some group of elite people in an ivory tower somewhere, but actually it is an open group, and you can join it today, if you want. There are three types of people on that group; 1) members that are placed there by companies that are sponsors of the W3C, 2) invited experts 3) people who want to get involved in the process. The third group make up the majority of WAI, and there are a number of such people on that group from Melbourne. They are the little people (hobbits), like the rest of us. If this is something you really want to contribute too, and make your voice heard, as a developer, whatever, here is the charter, the guide to participation and the How to Join. http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/new-charter-2000.html#participants http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/howto-join-wg.html You don't have to attend the Face to Face meetings, and it is not compulsory to attend the weekly teleconferences (but you are required to email a Regret Cannot Attend). If you are concerned about the direction of WAI and the work on WCAG2 (http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/) you should note in that document that it is a working draft. Being a working draft it is open to public comment. The group definitely wants your feedback and concerns, they do not want to it to get to Recommendation and there be oversights. They really do work hard at try to make these recommendations none restrictive on developers. Just look at the discussion list for WAI-GL to verify this. The fifth paragraph of Status of this Document states; quote The Working Group welcomes comments on this document at [EMAIL PROTECTED] The archives for this list are publicly available. Archives of the WCAG WG mailing list discussions are also publicly available. /quote So you can get involved and provide feedback without having to join the W3C WAI GL. Does the W3C WAI GL work with the manufactures of User Agents (browsers)? They certainly do (http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/). And they have a set of guidelines that User Agents are *meant* to comply with (http://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG10/). Here is a list of participants (http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/wai-ua-members.html). If you feel some companies on this list are asleep at the wheel, then raise that issue with them and ask them what the hell are they doing if they are on that list and not working on trying to comply with those standards. There is also the UAAG FAQ http://www.w3.org/2002/10/uaag10-faq/ You can evaluate user agents conformance http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2002/08/eval. You can also get involved with the Authoring Tool Accessibility Guidelines Working Group (http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU/) and their working draft of ATAG2 (http://www.w3.org/TR/ATAG20/). This too is open for public comment. You can help by doing Authoring Tool Evaluations (http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU/2002/tools). quote Please send comments about this document to the public mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (public archives). Please note that this document may contain typographical errors. It was published as soon as possible since review of the content itself is important, although noting typographical errors is also helpful. /quote Also see http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Overview.html Another way to get involved in the whole process is to work as a group to put pressure on User Agent and Authoring Tools developers to meet the standards. One way of doing this would be to review UAs and ATs and apply the test criteria as set down in these standards and publish them on the web site associated with this list or the Web Standards Project (or your own blog), whatever. If you really want to find out more about the W3C and WAI, how it works, how it interacts, about the standards, blah, blah, blah, the Melbourne Group could invite Charles McCathieNevile (http://www.w3.org/People/Charles/) to one of their meetings when he is in Melbourne. Another Australian W3C
RE: [WSG] Does anybody know an expandable vertical css/js menu based on uls?
-Original Message- From: Gerhard Schoder Hi Folks! Could one of you please point me to a vertical menu solution based on css/js and semantically structured by ul/li's? I'd love to have a solution that opens a sublevel-ul when clicked on a toplevel navigation item. It would need 4-5 sublevels... I know this is a lot to ask for, but maybe somebody knows a webstandard - konform solution to that bugger ;) Thanks alot in advance! As Barbara Dozetos says in her post, the Eric Meyers one would be the first I'd look at. There's one over at James Craig's CookieCrook http://cookiecrook.com/bugtests/menus/ Here's what he had to say about it when he was talking to me about it. At the time, I had not seen any that I thought meet WCAG standards (and there are probably others that do), but his does, yet, as he admits, there are still a few minor issues with it. james Thanks. Yeah, we try to encourage supplemental use of JavaScript whenever it could benefit the usability without negatively affecting accessibility. This can also help unbelievers (like yourself :D until this week) who think richly usable interfaces cannot be made accessible. I have taken the liberty to download the code and try it on a new prototype site. I have a client who requires both accessibility and also requested this feature. Is this okay? This is ok, but did you read my comments about the usability for people accessing with screen readers? I've decided to not use that method. At least until I have an epiphany about a different solution. I have come across a few behaviour problems. I probably have not got all the code. Is it possible to zip it and send to me. My implementation had a glassy look to it. You could see through a kind of coloured glass. To fix this in txo_compliant.css I changed line 53 to a color rather than transparent (but I suspect this is unnecessary as I probably do not have it installed and running properly. The functionality is fine in Win IE6, but there is no DHTML activity in Mozilla? You may have a different version of the script or style sheets. All files are available from the directory listing: http://www.cookiecrook.com/bugtests/menus/ I am not in a position to zip them up now but I may have time later if you still have trouble downloading them. My copy works in IE, Mozilla, Opera, and more. It worked on all standards-compliant Mac browsers last time I checked, but I've recently been alerted that there may be a problem with those. Not sure when I'll check into that since I'm rewriting them anyway. I'm also wondering about trying to make it a little easier for user to configure their own colors and font sizes? Maybe they just have to address this themselves. Yes, unfortunately redesigning requires a fairly advanced knowledge of CSS because all the positioning is combined in the style sheets. As you can see from the alternate style versions, this was done to separate the content from style and functionality and by doing so provide the opportunity for more flexibility in design while still utilizing the same source and script. The current version is fixed font-sizes because that was a client request for the portal. I had planned to make a scalable version example sometime later, but that will have to wait until I work on the next version of the menus. Good luck, James Craig -- http://www.cookiecrook.com/ /james * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Does anybody know an expandable vertical css/js menu based on uls?
you may take a look on http://www.kryogenix.org/code/browser/aqlists/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: Future.....(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs)
Sometimes it is good to have people with vision to lead people where they would not go themselves. and sometimes the world marches past 'cos they're too slow Lets hurry up and have CSS behavious added to the spec - it's a damn fine idea. the camel committee* has bandied this about for the last 4 years and (it seems) is still on the to do list. http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/WD-becss-19990804 That way it'll actually integrate HTML, CSS and javascript and give us TRUE dhtml. my Friday 2c worth barry.b * camel: a horse designed by committee -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 8 July 2004 10:51 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Future.(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs) Well, to answer that i dare you to walk into any web-based enterprise that has a DHTML intranet, and say the following words: Get rid of IFRAMES, and use something else Wear some padding, as the fall from the window could be high. Scott Barnes I think this demonstrates why having the Web vote on what should be standards falls flat. Wallace Stegner wrote, I don't know what I like as much as I like what I know. Meaning, in this context, that people are likely to maintain what they know and are comfortable with rather than to move forward into concepts that force them to change. I work in a university and my guess if put to a vote we would have outlawed any sort of CSS-P and probably any CSS at all. These folks grew up on tables and font tags and are loathe to give them up. Sometimes it is good to have people with vision to lead people where they would not go themselves. Joe Huggins * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Styling of Web Forms
Hi, I'd like to ask others opinions about the issue of adding your own styles for web forms. It was something I would do years ago to both enhance the presence of web form elements, and also give them a style associated with the design of the site. In the last few years I have gone away from this view and have decided to leave form elements in their native look and feel, purely for usability reasons. The reason or assumption being that form elements look different on every operating system, as they are a native component drawn by the operating system themselves. So my guess is that users can most easily identify them in their native format as that is the form the would most likely see them in the most. In Microsoft's The Windows Interface Guidelines for Software Design, the sunken design of form fields is done to clearly identify them on the screen, but this seems to have been abandoned in XP (it's something I don't agree with, but I leave it as it is). I doubt if this was a well informed decision, because they certainly were not thinking of the issue of the combination of bright primary colours, red and blue, especially on people with aging eye sight (see http://www.charlesriver.com/titles/webuse.html p102). Just interested in others approach on this issue. Regards Geoff Deering * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Styling of Web Forms
There is a good web page that discusses the radical re-styling of form objects: http://www.picment.com/articles/css/funwithforms/ From a pc standpoint, this form looks inviting but funky. From a Mac perspective, it looks pretty normal. I do find it a bit offsetting and don't think I'd use it on a vanilla web site. It would be great for more creative sites. I have used some of his concepts for other forms. Ted www.superiorpixels.com -Original Message- From: Geoff Deering [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 3:38 PM To: WebStandardsGroup Subject: [WSG] Styling of Web Forms Hi, I'd like to ask others opinions about the issue of adding your own styles for web forms. It was something I would do years ago to both enhance the presence of web form elements, and also give them a style associated with the design of the site. In the last few years I have gone away from this view and have decided to leave form elements in their native look and feel, purely for usability reasons. The reason or assumption being that form elements look different on every operating system, as they are a native component drawn by the operating system themselves. So my guess is that users can most easily identify them in their native format as that is the form the would most likely see them in the most. In Microsoft's The Windows Interface Guidelines for Software Design, the sunken design of form fields is done to clearly identify them on the screen, but this seems to have been abandoned in XP (it's something I don't agree with, but I leave it as it is). I doubt if this was a well informed decision, because they certainly were not thinking of the issue of the combination of bright primary colours, red and blue, especially on people with aging eye sight (see http://www.charlesriver.com/titles/webuse.html p102). Just interested in others approach on this issue. Regards Geoff Deering * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Microsoft IE Team available for an online chat
Hi: I'm new here :-) You can also post your feature requests for the next version of IE at the MSDN Channel9 InternetExplorerFeedback Wiki at: http://channel9.msdn.com/wiki/default.aspx/Channel9.InternetExplorerFeatureRequests ~ Kathleen Anderson Spider Web Woman Designs http://www.spiderwebwoman.com/resources/ Original Message From: webstandards [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Web Standards Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 6:49 AM Subject: [WSG] Microsoft IE Team available for an online chat Hi everyone.. I really hope this is not off-topic, but I came across a link on The Web Standards Project's Recent Buzz column, as shown on http://webstandards.org/ It goes: Ever wished you could give your opinion directly to the IE team at Microsoft? Here's your chance! They're making themselves available for an online chat Thursday, July 8, at 10:00 am Pacific. If you are on the East coast of Australia, it equates to 3AM Friday 9th of July (see http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=7day=8hour=10m in=0sec=0p1=234 for your local time). Ralph * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Styling of Web Forms
Geoff Deering wrote: I'd like to ask others opinions about the issue of adding your own styles for web forms. It's a tool I could only see myself using slightly, if at all, most of the the, but when you need it, you want it to be there. So yes, it would be a good tool to have in the toolbox. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] the disappearing tabs
At a guess I recon they're disappearing under the sub nav. If you make the text size smaller in Firefox, one of them pops up. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ted Drake Sent: Friday, 9 July 2004 6:12 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] the disappearing tabs Here's my problem. It is only showing 6 of the 8 tabs. They are in the code and they all worked spiffy until I added an extra tab. If you look at the code there is a tab id=a6 and a7 but these two are not showing up. I can't figure it out. http://www.timeshareinsurance.com/v11.2/product.html This isn't life or death, I'm sure I will have 2 or 3 more versions before the real coding begins. But I thought it would be a good challenge for those that can spot missing code. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] the disappearing tabs
I hadn't tried resizing. I can't find any width restrictions to keep the tab from showing. I tried setting a width:750px just to give it the room and that didn't help. Thanks for the help. -Original Message- From: Luke Moulton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 5:20 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] the disappearing tabs At a guess I recon they're disappearing under the sub nav. If you make the text size smaller in Firefox, one of them pops up. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ted Drake Sent: Friday, 9 July 2004 6:12 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] the disappearing tabs Here's my problem. It is only showing 6 of the 8 tabs. They are in the code and they all worked spiffy until I added an extra tab. If you look at the code there is a tab id=a6 and a7 but these two are not showing up. I can't figure it out. http://www.timeshareinsurance.com/v11.2/product.html This isn't life or death, I'm sure I will have 2 or 3 more versions before the real coding begins. But I thought it would be a good challenge for those that can spot missing code. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Does anybody know an expandable vertical css/js menu based on uls?
Check out ProjectSeven.com - various menu stuff as well as other stuff Jim Davies [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Web is a procrastination apparatus. It can absorb as much time as is required to ensure you won't get any work done. -- J. Nielsen [Original Message] From: Gerhard Schoder [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 7/9/2004 10:39:59 AM Subject: [WSG] Does anybody know an expandable vertical css/js menu based on uls? Hi Folks! Could one of you please point me to a vertical menu solution based on css/js and semantically structured by ul/li's? I'd love to have a solution that opens a sublevel-ul when clicked on a toplevel navigation item. It would need 4-5 sublevels... I know this is a lot to ask for, but maybe somebody knows a webstandard - konform solution to that bugger ;) Thanks alot in advance! Best regards, Gerd Schoder * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Styling of Web Forms
-Original Message- From: Mordechai Peller Geoff Deering wrote: I'd like to ask others opinions about the issue of adding your own styles for web forms. It's a tool I could only see myself using slightly, if at all, most of the the, but when you need it, you want it to be there. So yes, it would be a good tool to have in the toolbox. Yes, I think that's pretty much my approach to it too. Geoff * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: Future.....(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs)
Hi All, Firstly thankyou for contributing in this discussion, i know most of you are probably feeling who is this clown, attacking W3C. This is not infact the case, I am merely trying to get an overall understanding of why and where bodies like the W3C will be in the future. In doing so i have illustrated what in my mind is a flaw, in that the W3C is made up of a few selected Elite, and the little guy you, me and every other developer out their has no voice on the subject matter of whether DOM should be refined or whether some obscure CSS property is retrofitted accordingly. A few points have been made that Democracy in this case would be a fatal blow to the overall purpose of what the W3C represents. I find that a very hard thing to stomach and believe that a few would simply say that a vote would be a long drawn out exhausting process. To me if we can elect people within our society (in some countries) to run an entire country based on information we are given? Surely its not that much of a stretch in imagination to ask that we the ACTUAL development community have a say in the way standards are put forward to the world to follow? Its not a very large request? At some point the W3C have to cast some kind of vote to go forward on something along those lines, and thats where I would love to see us contribute. I'm not for a total abolishment of the W3C, they serve a purpose well, but I feel we should either be a virtual member (ie we the people collectively make one vote at least) or we ultimatley decide the outcome based on what they have put forward? We aren't dealing with an amount of people who cast their vote because its the most popular at the time, we are a diverse amount of individuals who come from every known social background with a huge array of beliefs and vast amounts of life experience! It is a radical idea that I know, but for me as a developer to take the W3C seriously, i need at least some sense of ownership, otherwise its just another collection of windbags telling me how technology should be run the standards way. I put it to you, a country today were to sit back and say to the people yeah, we have decided that in order to best run the country, we will select a few of our so called elite, they will make the choices on how we we will be governed and you go about your lives, as democracy isn't as easy as it sounds and you'll just drag us back. insert war here I've been making websites since i think 1996 or was it 1995, I've seen the HTML go from a very basic format into what it is now, some may have been around longer but the point is, i've seen it at its best, and I've seen it at its worst. I've seen browsers dictate the outcomes of many a standard and we are paying the price for it now. In years to come, i have serious doubt the W3C will in fact be a worthwile group? bold statement I know, but I say this as technology like FLEX and Microsofts AXML are trying their hardest to push the HTML browser out the door. Reason is its just too slow and way to many flavours out there, thus the standardss are required. I wonder now what impact it would have on the future of the Internet and products like this, if the concept above were to come true and we the developers did cast our vote? how much faster would things maybe done? How fast would technologies like XUL or similiar flavour evolve if their was a large majority shaping and moulding HTML to evolve in parrell with these languages. Microsoft are one clear major player who have seen how HTML has mutated into this thinware deployment system, where you could write applications to do day to day tasks, with minimal payload and in many cases Operating System Independent. Joel on Software (google it) put in perspective that in many ways the browser could end up being the virtual operating system where you utilise the overall browser as your base framework, that runs many operations (whether they be applications or presentations). They appear to see this is a big advantage to an existing operating system, thus Longhorn products are born, allowing developers a standard, that be microsofts, way of developing thinware applications with minimal development time. HTML has served its purpose and it feels like it was the first prototype for what may in years to come be a more advanced protocol in the way we handle computer experiences. For now, XHTML seems to be setup and evolved soley to bring order back to chaos, but its growing slowly in many ways and it's not accepting the fact that backward compatibility is a must. We are far too deep entrenched in TAG soup country. W3C have had the luxury of saying to the world do it this way please but they in now way are helping to enforce the standards they make? its more of a reference point and thats it, you hope your hard work can be used in years to come in a correct way simply because you adhered to XHTML validation rules, but all things
Re: Future.....(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs)
Scott, you said, for me as a developer to take the W3C seriously, i need at least some sense of ownership, Ownership is important, as you say, and this is why I support web standards. Because it's not just one corporation deciding what to give us. It's a process of winnowing, from developer wishlists through discussions, proposals, feedback to implementation. Geoff Deering has explained it all in lucid terms. There are those, like you, who are cluey enough about this stuff to get involved and make a serious contribution. There are others, like me, who will pop in a suggestion or comment from time to time if I really know what I'm talking about. (And this may be never!) I'd be happy to vote on emerging standards 1) if I was sure that I understood them fully enough in the abstract, which ain't easy and 2) if I could be sure that the other voters really understood the purpose and philosophy of standards. Perhaps another way of saying this is that you need to work out how to establish standing for voters. And perhaps the current system already does this adequately. The web, with its vast range of authors and contributors, is such an amorphous thing that you'd be hard put to it to do more than what organisations like this group are doing, in encouraging implementation and, for some, involvement in standards creation. -Hugh Todd * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: Future.....(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs)
Good point but remember we elect people who then represent us (in theory at least because I don't know who our current fellow at the top really represents) and vote on particular issues/bills. In no way do we vote on each bill. And no one is suggesting that we would be a better democracy if each and every bill went before the people. We can and some us do get involved at varying levels. Joe Huggins Technology Specialist Colorado Area Health Education Center (AHEC) 1976 Uvalda CT, Bldg 618 Aurora, CO 80010 (W) 303.724.1131 (C) 303.903.8352 www.uchsc.edu/ahec -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scott Barnes Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 7:59 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Future.(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs) A few points have been made that Democracy in this case would be a fatal blow to the overall purpose of what the W3C represents. I find that a very hard thing to stomach and believe that a few would simply say that a vote would be a long drawn out exhausting process. To me if we can elect people within our society (in some countries) to run an entire country based on information we are given? Surely its not that much of a stretch in imagination to ask that we the ACTUAL development community have a say in the way standards are put forward to the world to follow? Its not a very large request? * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: Future.....(was: Re: [WSG] iFrames vs Scrolling Divs)
Hi Scott, The process is open. Join W3C, get on a working group and contribute to you're heart's content. But you'll need to know a lot more than you do now. No offence but I think you'll be out of your depth just getting out of the elevator (as I would be). http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Prospectus/Joining It's very easy to criticise the process but very few (360) actually make the huge effort to be involved, sit on a working group, attend the workshops, contribute to the discussions and actually do something about it. I trust the people that are there and that they are a very balanced and incredibly clever group. http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Member/List Obviously the majority of them are corporate. They have the resources to actually pay someone to be involved and fly them around to wherever the meetings are, and they will have a person that is an expert in the field. I wouldn't want just anyone (me, you etc.) sitting on these committees wasting their time. Read some of the transcripts of the meetings and see what's involved. Like this one from June: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps-cdf-discuss/2004Jun/att-0 000/2004jun01.html A side point (from the above workshop)... I love this statement: Bert Bos: Nearly 10 years ago, HTML was in danger. Extensions for layout made HTML less useful, proprietary extensions, etc. so we created stylesheets. CSS is now being taken up, but HTML is in danger again. JavaScript is the worst invention ever. And this: Hakon Lie: Bert started his presenation by saying he joined W3C to save HTML. How do you save something? How do you save a village? An endangered species? Do we save it by freezeing it? Or by doing something totally differetrn? Evolve it? EDo we want a revolution or an evolution? P * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
