[WSG] ECMAScript collapsible Menu System
There has been lots written about separating content from presentation, and most developers see the benefit of this approach (cleaner, leaner markup; faster download speeds; easier maintainability, etc). There is also a fair amount written about separating behaviour from both content and presentation, but it tends to be practiced less than separation of content from presentation. HTML (or even XHTML) should be used for content , CSS for presentation, and ECMAScript for behaviour. All the time JavaScript was a Netscape proprietary technology, its use could not be endorsed by the W3C. In the middle of 1998, the European Computer Manufacturers Association (ECMA) created a public domain specification based on JavaScript, but using a standardised Document Object Model. The third edition of the ECMAScript Language Specification was published in December 1999; Standard ECMA-262. To illustrate using a completely separate behavioural layer, I'll demonstrate a collapsible menu system. All of the examples are HTML, but work equally well as XHTML, even when served with the correct MIME type. read on at http://juicystudio.com/ecmascriptmenu.asp -- Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts http://www.bhatt.id.au/photos/ http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Table v Container Development
Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote: Depending on the amount of hits they get, the bandwidth limits they have, etc. Whilst its always nice to include such information in our propaganda we hand out to clients, we do have to maintain a realist stance sometimes... most of our clients are small businesses and otherwise non-enterprise grade companies, their websites are not going to be 1000 hits a minute e-business solutions, most hosting companies have bandwidth limits of around 25-50GB a month, and its very hard to reach that limit through XHTML alone, you'll be lucky to serve even 4GB of XHTML, CSS, and images a month, imho. -- -David R ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] ECMAScript collapsible Menu System
Neerav wrote: read on at http://juicystudio.com/ecmascriptmenu.asp Looking good. However just being the nit-pick I am, might I suggest you enclose the list headers in h2 tags? ...And I'm not enirely sure about the click opens, another closes the same system, compared to open another and the previous one closes -- -David R ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] double space after period
Forgive me if this doesn't specifically relate to standards, but perhaps it does. I'm simply wondering about the grammatically-correct double space after a period. For years, it's never mattered to me, but I have a client who is a stickler for this sort of thing, and he asked if I could please add the extra spaces in his site. What do you think? First of all, can this be done in CSS? Secondly, is this even proper with (X)HTML documents? Thanks. -- ~john _ Dr. Zeus Web Development http://www.DrZeus.net content without clutter ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Table v Container Development
I deal with smaller clients, too, David and while I agree with your comments, I run reseller hosting and when on a limited budget in a cut-throat hosting business, those extra few Gigs often trip the switch to a higher bandwidth package, especially if clients are using eBay or similar commercial portal where mass interest can make a heck of a difference on a specific product. Believe me, it does make a substantial difference. Companies or sole traders on limited budget already have an acute eye on spending and it's as well to do whatever you can to retain them by keeping costs as low as possible. Hosting is extremely competitive and by reducing code size by a potential 60 or 70% you can make a considerable relative saving. Cheers, Mike Pepper Accessible Web Developer Internet SEO and Marketing Analyst [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.visidigm.com Administrator Guild of Accessible Web Designers [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gawds.org -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Whilst its always nice to include such information in our propaganda we hand out to clients, we do have to maintain a realist stance sometimes... most of our clients are small businesses and otherwise non-enterprise grade companies, their websites are not going to be 1000 hits a minute e-business solutions, most hosting companies have bandwidth limits of around 25-50GB a month, and its very hard to reach that limit through XHTML alone, you'll be lucky to serve even 4GB of XHTML, CSS, and images a month, imho. -- -David R -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.2 - Release Date: 21/01/05 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] double space after period
-Original Message- From: john [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, 23 January 2005 9:31 PM To: web standards group Subject: [WSG] double space after period Forgive me if this doesn't specifically relate to standards, but perhaps it does. I'm simply wondering about the grammatically-correct double space after a period. I never heard of a double-space being gramatically correct. Then again, perhaps in other countries it is? Which would cause a problem, I guess. I couldn't think of any way to do it in css. The only way would be nbsp;nbsp; , but that's fairly annoying. Interesting problem. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] xHTML style guide/ coding guidelines
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 19:18:39 -0500, Rob McCormack [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: . Anyone know of a nice style guide (or guidelines)for writing xHTML/HTML .. Rob New York Public Library Online Style Guide http://www.nypl.org/styleguide/ David -- http://www.dlaakso.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] double space after period
It certainly has nothing to do with grammar, it's more a presentation convention that has evolved with type. As for a solution, maybe the CSS property 'white-space: pre' would work? Iain -- Iain Gardiner http://www.firelightning.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] Sent: 23 January 2005 10:57 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] double space after period -Original Message- From: john [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, 23 January 2005 9:31 PM To: web standards group Subject: [WSG] double space after period Forgive me if this doesn't specifically relate to standards, but perhaps it does. I'm simply wondering about the grammatically-correct double space after a period. I never heard of a double-space being gramatically correct. Then again, perhaps in other countries it is? Which would cause a problem, I guess. I couldn't think of any way to do it in css. The only way would be nbsp;nbsp; , but that's fairly annoying. Interesting problem. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] double space after period
Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote: I couldn't think of any way to do it in css. The only way would be nbsp;nbsp; , but that's fairly annoying. AFAIK, the all the non-markup specific entities (ie: the ones that aren't: quot;, amp;, lt;, gt;) have been depreciated, if not removed, from XHTML2.0 since being based on XML means Unicode should be used. ...Including the nbsp; I'm guessing that XHTML2.0/XML will respect multiple whitespace when within an inline container or paragraph, sowould be valid. But grammatically it isn't in British English or American English. MS Word does support two spaces after periods, so I'm guessing that some obscure country uses this system. I do have a relevant question relating to this problem: Is there any advantage in word-wrapping markup'd paragraphs? -- -David R ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Re: double space after period
Hello, John, What do you think? First of all, can this be done in CSS? Secondly, is this even proper with (X)HTML documents? Not with CSS, unless you have all periods or sentences surrounded by a tag. And about being proper, I see it as a typography convention, not anything X/HTML related. For example, in Spanish I've seen manuals saying *not* to put two spaces after a period :P Frankly I'd just go for a replace all . by .nbsp; :) -- Saludos, Antonio http://www.mundoplus.tv/ Televisión por satélite en España ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] double space after period
- Original Message - From: Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: john [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, 23 January 2005 9:31 PM To: web standards group Subject: [WSG] double space after period Forgive me if this doesn't specifically relate to standards, but perhaps it does. I'm simply wondering about the grammatically-correct double space after a period. I never heard of a double-space being gramatically correct. Then again, perhaps in other countries it is? Which would cause a problem, I guess. I couldn't think of any way to do it in css. The only way would be nbsp;nbsp; , but that's fairly annoying. Interesting problem. I had this problem only last week - and couldn't solve it. Certainly here in UK it is (was) usual to put a double space after a period. It keeps the sentences apart. However, like a lot of things, it's now being (been) dropped. Only antiquated diehards (like me) want to keep it! :-) The problem is two-fold: 1) how to do it in the first place, and 2) how to allow for resizing with fluid layouts. I tried using nbsp;nbsp; but in one case/one size the double-space moved to the beginning of the line and looked quite awful - so that's out! Tricky . . . Bob McClelland, Cornwall (U.K.) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] double space after period
A double space after a period has nothing to do with grammar AFAIK, it is a convention that comes from typewriter (and fixed width font) days. Apparently the convention comes about because it makes it easier to distinguish the end of a sentence, both from the preceding sentence and from mid-sentence abbreviations terminated with a period when using a typewriter. Current teaching does not require two spaces after a sentence, and you really shouldn't use a double space when using proportional fonts. Rendering a double space after a period requires an entity (nbsp;) to display properly... a pretty hefty price code-wise. Terrence Wood. john wrote: I'm simply wondering about the grammatically-correct double space after a period. For years, it's never mattered to me, but I have a client who is a stickler for this sort of thing, and he asked if I could please add the extra spaces in his site. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] double space after period
On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 10:30:51 +, john [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Forgive me if this doesn't specifically relate to standards, but perhaps it does. I'd file it under best practices myself. I'm simply wondering about the grammatically-correct double space after a period. For years, it's never mattered to me, but I have a client who is a stickler for this sort of thing, and he asked if I could please add the extra spaces in his site. It's got absolutely nothing to do with grammar; as a couple other people have pointed out, it was a convention (and by no means a universal one) in the days of manual typesetting and is now quite outdated, yet for some reason primary-school teachers the world over continue to enforce it with maniacal intensity. See the following typophile.com thread for some lively discussion of the history of the convention and the many different ways in which it was (and wasn't) implemented: http://www.typophile.com/forums/messages/30/27993.html?1078892522 If your client continues to insist on double spaces, I'd recommend quoting liberally from that discussion, as perhaps the opinions of professional typographers and typesetters will carry some weight. What do you think? First of all, can this be done in CSS? Secondly, is this even proper with (X)HTML documents? You could play with 'whitespace', maybe, but it wouldn't be worth it. -- May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house. -- George Carlin ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Re[2]: double space after period
Hello, all. Multi-message comments follow: David R: AFAIK, the all the non-markup specific entities (ie: the ones that aren't: quot;, amp;, lt;, gt;) have been depreciated, if not removed, from XHTML2.0 since being based on XML means Unicode should be used. While the W3C says should not be normatively referenced for any purposes whatsoever about XHTML2, and knowing they're deliberatedly breaking backwards compatibility, I'll kinda wait before it influences what I do :) Bob McClelland: The problem is two-fold: 1) how to do it in the first place, [...] Global search replace of . by .nbsp; maybe? I can't think of any ill effect unless you use periods followed by a space for something else? Even if you already have . in your text it will work. [...] and 2) how to allow for resizing with fluid layouts. I tried using nbsp;nbsp; but in one case/one size the double-space moved to the beginning of the line and looked quite awful - so that's out! That's exactly why I suggest .nbsp; and not .nbsp;nbsp; or . nbsp; :) Does anybody see any ill effect I don't see? Terrence Wood: [...] it is a convention that comes from typewriter (and fixed width font) days. [...] Wherever it comes from, all my English paperbacks and eBooks use it :) [...] Rendering a double space after a period requires an entity (nbsp;) to display properly... a pretty hefty price code-wise. If the text is so long to have plenty of periods, I don't think it will matter that much. And then there's HTTP_ACCEPT_ENCODING=gzip. -- Saludos, Antonio http://www.mundoplus.tv/ Televisión por satélite en España ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] ECMAScript collapsible Menu System
David Perhaps you misunderstood, I just read this article and posted an excerpt + link. The congrats and/or brickbats should go to Gez Lemon of juicystudio.com :-) Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts http://www.bhatt.id.au/photos/ http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav David R wrote: Neerav wrote: read on at http://juicystudio.com/ecmascriptmenu.asp Looking good. However just being the nit-pick I am, might I suggest you enclose the list headers in h2 tags? ...And I'm not enirely sure about the click opens, another closes the same system, compared to open another and the previous one closes -- -David R ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Advantage of word-wrapping? (was: Re: [WSG] double space after period)
David R wrote:
I do have a relevant question relating to this problem: Is there any
advantage in word-wrapping markup'd paragraphs?
The most important situation in which word-wrapping is useful is with
justified text. Good word-wrapping prevents awkward word spacing in such
text, rendering it more legible.
There are a few pittfalls though, with word-wrapping: it is language
dependent and browsers are basically morons with regard to text-handling
in general and word-wrapping in particular.
The only element I know to provide predictable word-wrapping is [wbr],
but this is a non-XHTML element, thus needing a modified DTD which
includes this element. And then again: [wbr] doesn't add a hyphen when a
word is actually wrapped, so it is mainly useful in wrapping URL's and
the like. The soft-hyphen (shy;) is sometimes used for wrapping
purposes, but it was never intended for such use and produces
unpredictable results across browsers.
Word-wrapping will only become a viable online typesetting option when
browsers are capable of tapping into an OS provided spelling/wrapping/
grammar system. In such a situation, I can imagine a browser actually
picking up [lang=] attributes in mark-up to switch between wrapping
rules and authors only needing to specify 'on' or 'off' for
word-wrapping, e.g. through: p { word-wrap: (auto|no-wrap); }.
Until then, I just don't use any justified texts online. ;-)
Jeroen
--
vizi fotografie grafisch ontwerp - http://www.vizi.nl/
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Re: [WSG] double space after period
How about using en/em-space instead of regular space? http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/chars/spaces.html -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Re: Advantage of word-wrapping?
I was referring to wrapping text on the markup site:
Like so:
pHello, this is
wrapped, like so,
do you see?/p
rather than:
pHello, this is wrapped, like so, do you see?/p
In both cases, UAs will render the content exactly the same... I was
wondering if there were any advantages to the former... I heard
something about some obscure UAs ignoring content beyond the 80th Column
or something
--
-David R
Jeroen Visser [ vizi ] wrote:
The most important situation in which word-wrapping is useful is with
justified text. Good word-wrapping prevents awkward word spacing in such
text, rendering it more legible.
There are a few pittfalls though, with word-wrapping: it is language
dependent and browsers are basically morons with regard to text-handling
in general and word-wrapping in particular.
The only element I know to provide predictable word-wrapping is [wbr],
but this is a non-XHTML element, thus needing a modified DTD which
includes this element. And then again: [wbr] doesn't add a hyphen when a
word is actually wrapped, so it is mainly useful in wrapping URL's and
the like. The soft-hyphen (shy;) is sometimes used for wrapping
purposes, but it was never intended for such use and produces
unpredictable results across browsers.
Word-wrapping will only become a viable online typesetting option when
browsers are capable of tapping into an OS provided spelling/wrapping/
grammar system. In such a situation, I can imagine a browser actually
picking up [lang=] attributes in mark-up to switch between wrapping
rules and authors only needing to specify 'on' or 'off' for
word-wrapping, e.g. through: p { word-wrap: (auto|no-wrap); }.
Until then, I just don't use any justified texts online. ;-)
Jeroen
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] Re: Advantage of word-wrapping?
In both cases, UAs will render the content exactly the same... I was wondering if there were any advantages to the former... I heard something about some obscure UAs ignoring content beyond the 80th Column or something myth. -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] double space after period
I'm simply wondering about the grammatically-correct double space after a period. For years, it's never mattered to me, but I have a client who is a stickler for this sort of thing, and he asked if I could please add the extra spaces in his site. It may or may not be grammatically correct, depending on your semantics, but it is pure and simply wrong. Is your client writing a term paper on a typewriter or publishing a web site, book or magazine? The double space issue is and should be a dead one. This issue plagued the desktop world many moons ago. I know, I've been doing magazines and books for over thirty years. These days no managing- or copy-editor worth their salt would ever allow such spacing. It is incorrect and should be treated that way. Look at any book, magazine or published piece, there are no double spaced periods, period. An old world thought that refuse to die... w -- Wayne Godfrey President, Creative Director Outgate Media, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] CSS Footers
Hey guys I'm in a muddle here... I'm using CSS to absolutely position my columns, because if I floated them I'd have to re-order my XHTML structure: Presently its like this: (uber-simplification) body !-- Wrappers used for column backgrounds-- div id=wrapper1 div id=wrapper2 div id=nav ul liLoads of these/li /ul /div div id=content pLorem Ipsum/p /div div id=sidebar dl dtLoads of these too/dt ddEtc.../dd /dl /div div id=footer pFooter info/p /div /div /div !-- End wrappers -- /body With CSS specifying that #nav and #sidebar have definite width and positioned absolutely to left: 0; and right: 0; respectivly. Thing is, when the content of div#content is shorter than the height of either div#navbar or div#sidebar then the footer overlaps either sidebar. I've tried setting both div#wrapper to min-height: 100% but no change is observed. Does anyone have any suggestions for getting elements to clear floating boxes? Regards -- -David R ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] CSS Footers
Hi David, You could apply clear: both; to the footer element. Presuming the code is as the pseudo code you illustrate. Mike Pepper Accessible Web Developer Internet SEO and Marketing Analyst [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.visidigm.com Administrator Guild of Accessible Web Designers [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gawds.org -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of David R Sent: 23 January 2005 20:28 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] CSS Footers Hey guys I'm in a muddle here... I'm using CSS to absolutely position my columns, because if I floated them I'd have to re-order my XHTML structure: Presently its like this: (uber-simplification) body !-- Wrappers used for column backgrounds-- div id=wrapper1 div id=wrapper2 div id=nav ul liLoads of these/li /ul /div div id=content pLorem Ipsum/p /div div id=sidebar dl dtLoads of these too/dt ddEtc.../dd /dl /div div id=footer pFooter info/p /div /div /div !-- End wrappers -- /body With CSS specifying that #nav and #sidebar have definite width and positioned absolutely to left: 0; and right: 0; respectivly. Thing is, when the content of div#content is shorter than the height of either div#navbar or div#sidebar then the footer overlaps either sidebar. I've tried setting both div#wrapper to min-height: 100% but no change is observed. Does anyone have any suggestions for getting elements to clear floating boxes? Regards -- -David R ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.2 - Release Date: 21/01/05 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.2 - Release Date: 21/01/05 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Footers
Hi David, Couldn't you take the footer out of the wrapper... /div /div !-- end wrapper -- div id=footer pfooter stuff/p /div Kim David R wrote: Hey guys I'm in a muddle here... I'm using CSS to absolutely position my columns, because if I floated them I'd have to re-order my XHTML structure: Presently its like this: (uber-simplification) body !-- Wrappers used for column backgrounds-- div id=wrapper1 div id=wrapper2 div id=nav ul liLoads of these/li /ul /div div id=content pLorem Ipsum/p /div div id=sidebar dl dtLoads of these too/dt ddEtc.../dd /dl /div div id=footer pFooter info/p /div /div /div !-- End wrappers -- /body With CSS specifying that #nav and #sidebar have definite width and positioned absolutely to left: 0; and right: 0; respectivly. Thing is, when the content of div#content is shorter than the height of either div#navbar or div#sidebar then the footer overlaps either sidebar. I've tried setting both div#wrapper to min-height: 100% but no change is observed. Does anyone have any suggestions for getting elements to clear floating boxes? Regards -- -David R ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Footers
Does anyone have any suggestions for getting elements to clear floating boxes? Many options available, including setting all three columns to float:left and the footer to clear: both. This solves both your column order and footer issues. Absolute positioning will always have downsides such as spanning footers. Russ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] double space after period
Thank you for all your replies to this. My client has a PhD in Linguistics, and asked that I do this. I have since emailed him, citing many of your emails, and he changed his mind. Thanks again! ~john _ Dr. Zeus Web Development http://www.DrZeus.net content without clutter on 1/23/2005 8:00 PM Wayne Godfrey said the following: I'm simply wondering about the grammatically-correct double space after a period. For years, it's never mattered to me, but I have a client who is a stickler for this sort of thing, and he asked if I could please add the extra spaces in his site. It may or may not be grammatically correct, depending on your semantics, but it is pure and simply wrong. Is your client writing a term paper on a typewriter or publishing a web site, book or magazine? The double space issue is and should be a dead one. This issue plagued the desktop world many moons ago. I know, I've been doing magazines and books for over thirty years. These days no managing- or copy-editor worth their salt would ever allow such spacing. It is incorrect and should be treated that way. Look at any book, magazine or published piece, there are no double spaced periods, period. An old world thought that refuse to die... w -- Wayne Godfrey President, Creative Director Outgate Media, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] IE returns a blank page
Hi, This is my first post on this wonderful list. I have a major problem with IE6. Try to visit this page: http://www.juhaliikala.com It validates perfectly and works with Firefox and Netscape without any problems...but with IE. Well, for me anyway, it returns only a blank white page with the following content: !DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN HTMLHEAD META http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=windows-1252/HEAD BODY/BODY/HTML What on earth could be causing this? Other subpages of that site DO work also in the IE (e.g. www.juhaliikala.com/about/). I'm very confused about this...any help would be appreciated! Thanks in advance. :) Ps. The site itself is still under construction, but if anyone can give any tips pointers about how to make it better, please do :) Juha-Markku Liikala Department of Information Processing Science University of Oulu, Finland www.juhaliikala.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Gap in IE
Hello, i'm new to the group and have two problems with a site i'm working on. Perhaps someone could have a look at it. First: there is a gap of 2px between the header and the menu (only in IE. Opera7 and FF work fine). Second: when I put an image (the small arrow) into list-elements of the menu, the line-height gets smaller (only in IE. Opera7 and FF work fine). The URL is: http://mandolito.brotkastingsystem.de/ The CSS-File: http://mandolito.brotkastingsystem.de/css/mw.css If anyone can provide suggestions I would appreciate it... -- Cheers, Christoph ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] IE returns a blank page
Hi, This is my first post on this wonderful list. I have a major problem with IE6. Try to visit this page: http://www.juhaliikala.com It validates perfectly and works with Firefox and Netscape without any problems...but with IE. Well, for me anyway, it returns only a blank white page with the following content: !DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN HTMLHEAD META http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=windows-1252/HEAD BODY/BODY/HTML What on earth could be causing this? Other subpages of that site DO work also in the IE (e.g. www.juhaliikala.com/about/). I'm very confused about this...any help would be appreciated! Thanks in advance. :) Ps. The site itself is still under construction, but if anyone can give any tips pointers about how to make it better, please do :) Juha-Markku Liikala Department of Information Processing Science University of Oulu, Finland www.juhaliikala.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Gap in IE
To answer your second question, place the arrow as a background image inside the li element rather than inline. Gives you more control over placement and keeps unnecessary images out of markup. More here on background images in lists: http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listutorial/introduction.htm Russ Second: when I put an image (the small arrow) into list-elements of the menu, the line-height gets smaller (only in IE. Opera7 and FF work fine). ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Footers
Kim Kruse wrote: Hi David, Couldn't you take the footer out of the wrapper... /div /div !-- end wrapper -- div id=footer pfooter stuff/p /div No, because the height of the wrapper isn't affected by the height of the sidebars because they're positioned absolutely. I've tried making all 3 columns floats, but I'm stuck, because my center column is a fill region, and I'm unable to replicate this with all floats ...Looks like I'll have to restructure my XHTML then :/ !-- INSERT SHAMELESS PLUG -- Although ASP.Net's User Controls do make it a LOT easier to do this on a site-wide basis !-- END PLUG -- -- -David R ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE returns a blank page
I can't figure out what can be causing the problem, because it doesn't work with any of my friends computers either... this is so weird... Juha-Markku Liikala Department of Information Processing Science University of Oulu, Finland ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE returns a blank page
Sometimes simply clearing my browser cache does the trick for me - although I'm sure you've already tried this. Leslie Riggs I can't figure out what can be causing the problem, because it doesn't work with any of my friends computers either... this is so weird... Juha-Markku Liikala Department of Information Processing Science University of Oulu, Finland ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE returns a blank page
Ok, problem solved...well kind of. I removed a my blog php-script from the page and now it seems to work just fine... Thanks anyway :) Juha-Markku Liikala Department of Information Processing Science University of Oulu, Finland ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] IE returns a blank page
We had this problem too ... It had something to do with the Proxy server ... If you view the source ... Do you just get the two tags HTML/HTML nothing inbetween? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Leslie Riggs Sent: Monday, 24 January 2005 9:14 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] IE returns a blank page Sometimes simply clearing my browser cache does the trick for me - although I'm sure you've already tried this. Leslie Riggs I can't figure out what can be causing the problem, because it doesn't work with any of my friends computers either... this is so weird... Juha-Markku Liikala Department of Information Processing Science University of Oulu, Finland ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. Please note that any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. The recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The company accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re[2]: [WSG] IE returns a blank page
Hello Liikala, try to leave out the first line of your code: ?xml version='1.0' encoding='UTF-8' ? Perhaps IE goes to Quirks Mode because of that line... -- Cheers, Christoph on Sunday, January 23, 2005, 10:53:28 PM you wrote: JML I can't figure out what can be causing the problem, because it doesn't JML work with any of my friends computers either... JML this is so weird... JMLJuha-Markku Liikala JML Department of Information Processing Science JMLUniversity of Oulu, Finland JML ** JML The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ JML See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm JML for some hints on posting to the list getting help JML ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE returns a blank page
It sounds like the IE6 session bug...in that case try adding: header(Cache-control: private); // IE 6 Fix. after a session_start() call if there is one, or anywhere before sending output to the browser. Terrence Wood. Juha-Markku Liikala wrote: Ok, problem solved...well kind of. I removed a my blog php-script from the page and now it seems to work just fine... ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Re: Advantage of word-wrapping?
On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 19:23:58 -, Kornel Lesinski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In both cases, UAs will render the content exactly the same... I was wondering if there were any advantages to the former... I heard something about some obscure UAs ignoring content beyond the 80th Column or something myth. BUT - for development purposes wrapping is far more readable. Same way that code indenting is a nice thing to do but serves no practical purpose. Of course, if you're very concerned about page size (kb wise) the wrapping, indenting etc are just pointless wastes of space. Regards mjec -- http://mine.mjec.net/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Has news.com.au redesigned to Standards?
http://www.news.com.au/ I had a pleasant surprise this morning when I saw this redesign. Good to see another big site making the effort. Cheers *** Helen Rysavy Web Designer, Teaching Learning Development Charles Darwin University, Northern Territory 0909 Tel: 8946 7779 Mobile: 0403 290 842 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] www.cdu.edu.au CRICOS Provider No: 00300K *** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Has news.com.au redesigned to Standards?
A lot less tables than before 8D but plenty of validation errors... It scares me to think of how difficult it would be to keep all of the content compliant when there's so much 3rd party shite plugged into every page. Definitely a step in the right direction, thumbs up! Mt. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 24 January 2005 9:07 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Has news.com.au redesigned to Standards? http://www.news.com.au/ I had a pleasant surprise this morning when I saw this redesign. Good to see another big site making the effort. Cheers *** Helen Rysavy Web Designer, Teaching Learning Development Charles Darwin University, Northern Territory 0909 Tel: 8946 7779 Mobile: 0403 290 842 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] www.cdu.edu.au CRICOS Provider No: 00300K *** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** IMPORTANT: This e-mail, including any attachments, may contain private or confidential information. If you think you may not be the intended recipient, or if you have received this e-mail in error, please contact the sender immediately and delete all copies of this e-mail. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not reproduce any part of this e-mail or disclose its contents to any other party. This email represents the views of the individual sender, which does not necessarily reflect those of education.au limited except where the sender expressly states otherwise. It is your responsibility to scan this email and any files transmitted with it for viruses or any other defects. education.au limited will not be liable for any loss, damage or consequence caused directly or indirectly by this e-mail. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Has news.com.au redesigned to Standards?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.news.com.au/ I had a pleasant surprise this morning when I saw this redesign. Good to see another big site making the effort. It needs a visit by the usability police. 41,706 bytes of CSS, and text line-height sized in subatomic px. Should any site need that much CSS? -- The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God. 1 Corinthians 1:18 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Future XHTML Proposals?
Hey guys (once again) I was thinking about your stereotypical Angelfire / Tripod user, the beginner hobbyist. Typically, these people start off with HTML3.2 or HTML4.01 Transitional, as these are the most flexible, however they also lead to bad practices later on. Have a look at the latest spec ...Then ask yourself why so many people don't want to use this spec I asked on such individual: XHTML is too restrictive, how am I supposed to layout pages if I can't use tables? I think the W3C needs to produce more flavors of XHTML than just the single specification... I'm thinking more along the lines of: XHTML 2.0 - Simple XHTML 2.0 - Contracted Tags + Attributes XHTML 2.0 - Complete Where the Simple edition is a vastly simplified version where there's less emphasis on content/presentation separation, such as greater support for attribute styles and perhaps a LayoutTable element? Where each LayoutCell has a Context Order informing screen-readers in what order to read the content? I was also thinking of bandwidth conservation, especilly with the mobile device market, and thought up a variant of XHTML where only the essential elements are included, and represented using the minimum of letters, ditto for their attributes Say we want a table with a width of 100px and 2 rows and 3 columns: t s=w:100p; tr tc/ tc/ tc/ / tr tc/ tc/ tc/ / / Note my use of my proposed universal closing tag '/' Just out of curiosity... how do I get things like these formalised into an RFC Document and sent to the W3C for review? -- -David R ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Floating to left and/or right...
Hi all, this is my first shot at a tableless XHTML/CSS design and its turning out better than I thought... Everything is going according to plan, _except_ for one minor detail that is making a big difference. Check out the page that I'm laying out: http://cyberphant0m.dotgeek.org/index.html The markup http://cyberphant0m.dotgeek.org/inc/style.css This is the stylesheet (obviously) Obviously, the sidebar should be on the side, and not under the content... I've put a 1px wide border around the #content area, and the #sidebar in order to illustrate where the boundaries are, in case it helps someone to help me... I've tried: 1. float: left in the #content div 2. float: right in the #sidebar div 3. both #1 and #2 at the same time Each one has not satisfied what I'm trying to do... -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.1 - Release Date: 1/19/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Future XHTML Proposals?
David R wrote: I was thinking about your stereotypical Angelfire / Tripod user, the beginner hobbyist. I'd predict that, once (if?) XHTML2.0 becomes mainstream, nobody in that target audience would code by hand, but would use WYSIWYG applications which, by that time, will have caught on to abandoning tables as the core layout paradigm. Typically, these people start off with HTML3.2 or HTML4.01 Transitional, as these are the most flexible, however they also lead to bad practices later on. Again, by then there will hopefully be a slew of good for dummies XHTML books, compliant editors, basic template libraries included in those hosting packages and/or the content generated by wizard-driven create your site in 5 easy steps generators, etc. I think the W3C needs to produce more flavors of XHTML than just the single specification... I'm thinking more along the lines of: XHTML 2.0 - Simple XHTML 2.0 - Contracted Tags + Attributes XHTML 2.0 - Complete Where the Simple edition is a vastly simplified version where there's less emphasis on content/presentation separation, such as greater support for attribute styles and perhaps a LayoutTable element? Seems a step backwards to me, and at odds with the core idea behind the *content* markup language. Also, would this not create more confusion among budding developers? XHTML 2.0 is modular anyway, so rather than creating new standards, it may just be a case of writing out separate views into the larger idea of XHTML, e.g.: to begin, read the specs for these 3 core modules...if you want more power, read up on these other modules, etc. I was also thinking of bandwidth conservation, especilly with the mobile device market, and thought up a variant of XHTML where only the essential elements are included, and represented using the minimum of letters, ditto for their attributes I think that would be best achieved in a transformation server-side, before being sent out to the device. Also (as frowned upon as this argument may be) I believe mobile bandwidth is steadily increasing (heck, we now have streaming audio/video applications), so - considering the average size of a page you'd *want* to send to a mobile user, considering usability and device dependent issues such as limited/awkward scrolling, small screen size, simplified layouts, etc) - I don't see a problem with what would only be a few wasted bytes. Note my use of my proposed universal closing tag '/' Aeh...but that goes against basic XML standards, so I don't think this idea would be a step back (similar in practice to the implied closing of tags of general SGML and HTML4) -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Future XHTML Proposals?
Very interesting proposal... I agree that many beginners find tableless designs somewhat hard to grasp. Probably because they took a class in high school or college, and their teacher may have told them that its easier to use tables because they act logically. The thing is, that when people design sites, they think of fitting content into a layout, rather than laying out their content. Sometimes, a three column layout may not be the best tool to use. Or there are some cases where a horizontal navigation bar is better than a vertical navigation list. That's just what I think about the matter... As for your suggestion of the LayoutTable element, I would consider it a step back... If we're trying to eliminate tables as a layout tool, then I think it would be like delaying the step forward in webdesign/web standards/etc... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of David R Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 6:33 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Future XHTML Proposals? Hey guys (once again) I was thinking about your stereotypical Angelfire / Tripod user, the beginner hobbyist. Typically, these people start off with HTML3.2 or HTML4.01 Transitional, as these are the most flexible, however they also lead to bad practices later on. Have a look at the latest spec ...Then ask yourself why so many people don't want to use this spec I asked on such individual: XHTML is too restrictive, how am I supposed to layout pages if I can't use tables? I think the W3C needs to produce more flavors of XHTML than just the single specification... I'm thinking more along the lines of: XHTML 2.0 - Simple XHTML 2.0 - Contracted Tags + Attributes XHTML 2.0 - Complete Where the Simple edition is a vastly simplified version where there's less emphasis on content/presentation separation, such as greater support for attribute styles and perhaps a LayoutTable element? Where each LayoutCell has a Context Order informing screen-readers in what order to read the content? I was also thinking of bandwidth conservation, especilly with the mobile device market, and thought up a variant of XHTML where only the essential elements are included, and represented using the minimum of letters, ditto for their attributes Say we want a table with a width of 100px and 2 rows and 3 columns: t s=w:100p; tr tc/ tc/ tc/ / tr tc/ tc/ tc/ / / Note my use of my proposed universal closing tag '/' Just out of curiosity... how do I get things like these formalised into an RFC Document and sent to the W3C for review? -- -David R ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.1 - Release Date: 1/19/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.1 - Release Date: 1/19/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Has news.com.au redesigned to Standards?
Reminds me of the post I wrote yesterday! http://www.karmakars.com/weblog/archives/2005/01/23/news_redesign On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 18:05:29 -0500, Felix Miata [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.news.com.au/ I had a pleasant surprise this morning when I saw this redesign. Good to see another big site making the effort. It needs a visit by the usability police. 41,706 bytes of CSS, and text line-height sized in subatomic px. Should any site need that much CSS? -- The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God. 1 Corinthians 1:18 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Regards, Amit Karmakar http://karmakars.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Floating to left and/or right...
If you put your sidebar div above your content div the current css works out fine. Otherwise if you want to leave the same order as you have it in know you need to set a specific width for the content div to make the float: left float: right technique to work. I tested it in FF1.0. Hope this helps. I'm sure there are other ways to do it too that some one can point out. On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 19:04:02 -0500, Alex Katechis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, this is my first shot at a tableless XHTML/CSS design and its turning out better than I thought... Everything is going according to plan, _except_ for one minor detail that is making a big difference. Check out the page that I'm laying out: http://cyberphant0m.dotgeek.org/index.html The markup http://cyberphant0m.dotgeek.org/inc/style.css This is the stylesheet (obviously) Obviously, the sidebar should be on the side, and not under the content... I've put a 1px wide border around the #content area, and the #sidebar in order to illustrate where the boundaries are, in case it helps someone to help me... I've tried: 1. float: left in the #content div 2. float: right in the #sidebar div 3. both #1 and #2 at the same time Each one has not satisfied what I'm trying to do... -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.1 - Release Date: 1/19/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Future XHTML Proposals?
G'day Very interesting proposal... I agree that many beginners find tableless designs somewhat hard to grasp. I must still be a beginner, after 6 years of web design. It's not just that it's hard to grasp, certain layouts that are easy to do with a single layout table are near-impossible with table-less design. I have been struggling with one particular site for a week and still can't get it to work reliably in Firefox, Opera and MSIE 5/5.5/6 (on PC, let alone MSIE Mac) at the same time. I did another version (using a single table) in less than an hour and it displays as intended in Firefox, Opera and MSIE5/5.5/6 on PC. I am seriously considering using that version. Probably because they took a class in high school or college, and their teacher may have told them that its easier to use tables because they act logically. That may be the case sometimes. I studied for the CIW Site Designer Certificate, which didn't seem to worry about standards in any shape or form either. I decided to stop studying for it. The thing is, that when people design sites, they think of fitting content into a layout, rather than laying out their content. Sometimes, a three column layout may not be the best tool to use. Or there are some cases where a horizontal navigation bar is better than a vertical navigation list. Sometimes what the customer wants is a 3 column layout with a footer that sits at the bottom of the viewport on short pages and at the bottom of the document on longer ones. Usually, the customer gets what the customer wants. Customers don't care (and usually don't even know) whether I use a simple table with minimal CSS or a complex arrangement with lots of divs and CSS full of hacks to make it work. Don't get me wrong... I do not nest tables (except to put a table with tabular data inside the single layout table). I cringe when I see sites that nest their tables just to get some spacing etc that can be achieved easily with CSS. Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Floating to left and/or right...
Actually, that's what I was trying to avoid... I've tried changing the order of the sidebar and content, and the css works as is, but in terms of markup, I think the page would make a lot more sense structurally if the content came before, since the sidebar will (eventually) have addons (search box, related articles, about this page, etc.) And having to force someone with a text-browser to go through all that stuff before getting to the meat will be a hindrance to accessibility and usability. I now find myself in this puddle of calculation hell: The width for the #wrapper div (the div that adds a left and right margin to the whole page) is specified in terms of %, while the paddings, margins, and widths of everything else is set in EM, and border widths are set using PX... How would I give the #content div a width so that the layout will work without altering the markup order? Feel free to tell me if Im dreaming of a distant utopian world where standards are correctly implemented in every single browser. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Neil Patel Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 8:24 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Floating to left and/or right... If you put your sidebar div above your content div the current css works out fine. Otherwise if you want to leave the same order as you have it in know you need to set a specific width for the content div to make the float: left float: right technique to work. I tested it in FF1.0. Hope this helps. I'm sure there are other ways to do it too that some one can point out. On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 19:04:02 -0500, Alex Katechis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, this is my first shot at a tableless XHTML/CSS design and its turning out better than I thought... Everything is going according to plan, _except_ for one minor detail that is making a big difference. Check out the page that I'm laying out: http://cyberphant0m.dotgeek.org/index.html The markup http://cyberphant0m.dotgeek.org/inc/style.css This is the stylesheet (obviously) Obviously, the sidebar should be on the side, and not under the content... I've put a 1px wide border around the #content area, and the #sidebar in order to illustrate where the boundaries are, in case it helps someone to help me... I've tried: 1. float: left in the #content div 2. float: right in the #sidebar div 3. both #1 and #2 at the same time Each one has not satisfied what I'm trying to do... -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.1 - Release Date: 1/19/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.1 - Release Date: 1/19/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.1 - Release Date: 1/19/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Future XHTML Proposals?
Bert Doorn wrote: I have been struggling with one particular site for a week and still can't get it to work reliably in Firefox, Opera and MSIE 5/5.5/6 (on PC, let alone MSIE Mac) at the same time. I did another version (using a single table) in less than an hour and it displays as intended in Firefox, Opera and MSIE5/5.5/6 on PC. I am seriously considering using that version. However, that's quite the different issue of browser support, not of relative merit of the standard itself. I'd seriously hope that once (if?) browsers understand XHTML2.0, they will also implement CSS in a sane way - as, if they really implement it properly, there is no other way to lay out content other than to use CSS (ok, through the modularisation, you may still be able to drop extra modules in to taint the markup with presentation, but in principle anyway). Customers don't care (and usually don't even know) whether I use a simple table with minimal CSS or a complex arrangement with lots of divs and CSS full of hacks to make it work. And yes, they shouldn't care. Unless, by that stage, they start wondering why their site can't be changed on the fly into a completely separate look based on user choice or device they're using, like it happens on their competitor sites which embrace more modern standards (yes, wishful thinking, I know) -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Floating to left and/or right...
Alex Katechis wrote:
Hi all, this is my first shot at a tableless XHTML/CSS design and its
turning out better than I thought... Everything is going according
to plan, _except_ for one minor detail that is making a big
difference.
This _is_ one of the most difficult details in web design based on
CSS. Once you've got this one under control, there's not much that can
stop you.
http://cyberphant0m.dotgeek.org/index.html
http://cyberphant0m.dotgeek.org/inc/style.css
Obviously, the sidebar should be on the side, and not under the content...
I've tried:
1. float: left in the #content div
2. float: right in the #sidebar div
3. both #1 and #2 at the same time
Floating both (3) is the way to go, based on how your source-code is
ordered (navigation - content - sidebar).
- The reason it doesn't work, is that #content has a margin-right and no
width. #sidebar can not float up through that margin. The fixed width on
#sidebar makes it a bit more difficult to make it fit into a flexible
page-width, since percentages and pixels won't add up.
You may try something like this:
#content {float: left; margin: 0; width: 75%;}
#sidebar {float: right; margin: 0; width: 24%;}
... and see if using percentage-width on both looks more like it. It
will work, of course, but #sidebar will flex in width, and that may not
be what you want.
A more advanced, but also more complicated, way to do it is to use
negative back-side margins on floats:
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/negativemargins/
... which you may need to read a couple of times to get a grip on.
You can see that method in action here:
http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_1_02.html
... and a little overworked here:
http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/moa_3.html
http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/moa_4.html
... all these combine flexible and fixed width float-columns, just so
you can see that they will work. Lots more there that doesn't matter
much at the level you are now.
regards
Georg
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
[WSG] Comment before the DOCTYPE?
I'm going through all the templates which came from our design competiton which will be used in Style Master 4, knocking them into shape. I've found one which puts a comment *before* the DOCTYPE declaration. And of course, when you remove this comment the layout breaks in IE6. Contrary to what I would have thought, the document still validates (as XHTML strict) even with this comment there. A little bit of guessing and research tells me that obviously the comment is making the browser drop into quirks mode. But I want to document this for people who ultimately use the template. Does anyone have any good info on: 1. how/why this particular trick works. 2. whether the document really is valid or not. I mean, it validates, but there's no shortage of places in the spec where it says the DOCTYPE declaration has to come before anything else 3. any good reasons why using a comment like this is bad in some way - you know, will I start growing hair on the back of my hands or something like that? Thx in advance Maxine http://westciv.typepad.com/standards/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] I'll Have Fries(Chips)With My CMS
Hi, I'm looking for an open source, standards compliant CMS for an existing site. The goal is taking the current design adding it to the CMS, and proceeding as seamlessly as possible. If such a thing exists one of you has knowledge. I'm asking a lot and will have fries with it. CK __ Knowing is not enough, you must apply; willing is not enough, you must do. ---Bruce Lee ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Floating to left and/or right...
I would agree with Gunlaug in that either number 3 or using negative
margins is the way to go with your code arrangement.
On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 02:50:15 +0100, Gunlaug Sørtun [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Alex Katechis wrote:
Hi all, this is my first shot at a tableless XHTML/CSS design and its
turning out better than I thought... Everything is going according
to plan, _except_ for one minor detail that is making a big
difference.
This _is_ one of the most difficult details in web design based on
CSS. Once you've got this one under control, there's not much that can
stop you.
http://cyberphant0m.dotgeek.org/index.html
http://cyberphant0m.dotgeek.org/inc/style.css
Obviously, the sidebar should be on the side, and not under the content...
I've tried:
1. float: left in the #content div
2. float: right in the #sidebar div
3. both #1 and #2 at the same time
Floating both (3) is the way to go, based on how your source-code is
ordered (navigation - content - sidebar).
- The reason it doesn't work, is that #content has a margin-right and no
width. #sidebar can not float up through that margin. The fixed width on
#sidebar makes it a bit more difficult to make it fit into a flexible
page-width, since percentages and pixels won't add up.
You may try something like this:
#content {float: left; margin: 0; width: 75%;}
#sidebar {float: right; margin: 0; width: 24%;}
... and see if using percentage-width on both looks more like it. It
will work, of course, but #sidebar will flex in width, and that may not
be what you want.
A more advanced, but also more complicated, way to do it is to use
negative back-side margins on floats:
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/negativemargins/
... which you may need to read a couple of times to get a grip on.
You can see that method in action here:
http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_1_02.html
... and a little overworked here:
http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/moa_3.html
http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/moa_4.html
... all these combine flexible and fixed width float-columns, just so
you can see that they will work. Lots more there that doesn't matter
much at the level you are now.
regards
Georg
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
RE: [WSG] I'll Have Fries(Chips)With My CMS
I was just looking for something similar the other day. I am not quite sure about it yet, but have a look at Mambo (http://www.mamboserver.com/) - it is open source PHP, but I am not quite sure yet in how far it is standards compliant. HTH. -Original Message- From: Chris Kennon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 24 January 2005 12:53 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] I'll Have Fries(Chips)With My CMS Hi, I'm looking for an open source, standards compliant CMS for an existing site. The goal is taking the current design adding it to the CMS, and proceeding as seamlessly as possible. If such a thing exists one of you has knowledge. I'm asking a lot and will have fries with it. CK __ Knowing is not enough, you must apply; willing is not enough, you must do. ---Bruce Lee ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Comment before the DOCTYPE?
Yes, it is there to force the quirks mode. I personally prefer the XML prolog there (however I don't know why I haven't placed it in my StyleMaster template :/ ...). It works as well... More info on topic: http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listamatic/about-boxmodel.htm -- Jan Brasna :: alphanumeric.cz | webcore.cz | designlab.cz | janbrasna.com Stop IE! - http://www.stopie.com/ | http://browsehappy.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] I'll Have Fries(Chips)With My CMS
Well, you can make any of these CMS's standards compliant: Typo - Complicated but powerful eZ Publish - I recommend this but the templating system takes time to get used to Textparttern - Less powerful that some but easier integration xMambo - Aims for standards compliance I would also check out opensourcecms.com for demos On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 17:53:23 -0800, Chris Kennon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I'm looking for an open source, standards compliant CMS for an existing site. The goal is taking the current design adding it to the CMS, and proceeding as seamlessly as possible. If such a thing exists one of you has knowledge. I'm asking a lot and will have fries with it. CK __ Knowing is not enough, you must apply; willing is not enough, you must do. ---Bruce Lee ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Comment before the DOCTYPE?
Maxine Sherrin wrote: I'm going through all the templates which came from our design competiton which will be used in Style Master 4, knocking them into shape. I've found one which puts a comment *before* the DOCTYPE declaration. And of course, when you remove this comment the layout breaks in IE6. 1. how/why this particular trick works. Anything before the DOCTYPE throws IE into quirks mode, even if it specifies a strict type. That's why it's usually recommended to drop the ?xml ...? declaration in documents, even though in theory all XHTML documents should feature it. 2. whether the document really is valid or not. I mean, it validates, but there's no shortage of places in the spec where it says the DOCTYPE declaration has to come before anything else I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that, if I understand it correctly, XML parsers can simply throw out comments and ignore them completely. Also, despite comment, the root element of the XHTML document still remains html, so valid as per spec. 3. any good reasons why using a comment like this is bad in some way - you know, will I start growing hair on the back of my hands or something like that? Be aware that you're knowingly throwing IE into quirks mode, and the various issues with regards to CSS this causes (box model, for instance)...where IE6 is quite capable if you let it go into standards mode. Mainly, you can avoid a bit of hacking away if your site needs to cater for both IE5.x and IE6...but you'll need more hacks than if you just forgot about generation 5 and coded to pure 6. -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Floating to left and/or right...
Great! Thanks a lot to everyone who replied... Im gonna go through the links
in Gunlaug's message and read them several times each and make sure I whip
my standards techniques into shape =)
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Neil Patel
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 9:02 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Floating to left and/or right...
I would agree with Gunlaug in that either number 3 or using negative
margins is the way to go with your code arrangement.
On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 02:50:15 +0100, Gunlaug Sørtun
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Alex Katechis wrote:
Hi all, this is my first shot at a tableless XHTML/CSS design and its
turning out better than I thought... Everything is going according
to plan, _except_ for one minor detail that is making a big
difference.
This _is_ one of the most difficult details in web design based on
CSS. Once you've got this one under control, there's not much that can
stop you.
http://cyberphant0m.dotgeek.org/index.html
http://cyberphant0m.dotgeek.org/inc/style.css
Obviously, the sidebar should be on the side, and not under
the content...
I've tried:
1. float: left in the #content div
2. float: right in the #sidebar div
3. both #1 and #2 at the same time
Floating both (3) is the way to go, based on how your source-code is
ordered (navigation - content - sidebar).
- The reason it doesn't work, is that #content has a margin-right and no
width. #sidebar can not float up through that margin. The fixed width on
#sidebar makes it a bit more difficult to make it fit into a flexible
page-width, since percentages and pixels won't add up.
You may try something like this:
#content {float: left; margin: 0; width: 75%;}
#sidebar {float: right; margin: 0; width: 24%;}
... and see if using percentage-width on both looks more like it. It
will work, of course, but #sidebar will flex in width, and that may not
be what you want.
A more advanced, but also more complicated, way to do it is to use
negative back-side margins on floats:
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/negativemargins/
... which you may need to read a couple of times to get a grip on.
You can see that method in action here:
http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_1_02.html
... and a little overworked here:
http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/moa_3.html
http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/moa_4.html
... all these combine flexible and fixed width float-columns, just so
you can see that they will work. Lots more there that doesn't matter
much at the level you are now.
regards
Georg
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
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The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
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for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] I'll Have Fries(Chips)With My CMS
I think that Drupal.org is far better than Mambo... -- Jan Brasna :: alphanumeric.cz | webcore.cz | designlab.cz | janbrasna.com Stop IE! - http://www.stopie.com/ | http://browsehappy.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Floating to left and/or right...
You may want to look at http://www.drupal.org looks pretty good, quite
extensible, etc...
Never tried it, but I've seen some people make some very artistic layouts,
and if Im not mistaken, the default layout that ships with drupal is
XHTML/CSS compliant... not bad, but it doesn't work with PHP5 AFAIK
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Gunlaug Sørtun
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 8:50 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Floating to left and/or right...
Alex Katechis wrote:
Hi all, this is my first shot at a tableless XHTML/CSS design and its
turning out better than I thought... Everything is going according
to plan, _except_ for one minor detail that is making a big
difference.
This _is_ one of the most difficult details in web design based on
CSS. Once you've got this one under control, there's not much that can
stop you.
http://cyberphant0m.dotgeek.org/index.html
http://cyberphant0m.dotgeek.org/inc/style.css
Obviously, the sidebar should be on the side, and not under the
content...
I've tried:
1. float: left in the #content div
2. float: right in the #sidebar div
3. both #1 and #2 at the same time
Floating both (3) is the way to go, based on how your source-code is
ordered (navigation - content - sidebar).
- The reason it doesn't work, is that #content has a margin-right and no
width. #sidebar can not float up through that margin. The fixed width on
#sidebar makes it a bit more difficult to make it fit into a flexible
page-width, since percentages and pixels won't add up.
You may try something like this:
#content {float: left; margin: 0; width: 75%;}
#sidebar {float: right; margin: 0; width: 24%;}
... and see if using percentage-width on both looks more like it. It
will work, of course, but #sidebar will flex in width, and that may not
be what you want.
A more advanced, but also more complicated, way to do it is to use
negative back-side margins on floats:
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/negativemargins/
... which you may need to read a couple of times to get a grip on.
You can see that method in action here:
http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_1_02.html
... and a little overworked here:
http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/moa_3.html
http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/moa_4.html
... all these combine flexible and fixed width float-columns, just so
you can see that they will work. Lots more there that doesn't matter
much at the level you are now.
regards
Georg
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.1 - Release Date: 1/19/2005
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] Comment before the DOCTYPE?
Maxine Sherrin wrote: I'm going through all the templates which came from our design competiton which will be used in Style Master 4, knocking them into shape. I've found one which puts a comment *before* the DOCTYPE declaration. And of course, when you remove this comment the layout breaks in IE6. 1. how/why this particular trick works. IE6 need to see the doctype first, or it will not recognize it. Ref: http://www.w3.org/International/articles/serving-xhtml/ 2. whether the document really is valid or not. I mean, it validates, but there's no shortage of places in the spec where it says the DOCTYPE declaration has to come before anything else You'll find this construct all over W3C, and it does the same thing - drops IE6 back to quirks mode: ?xml version=1.0 encoding=utf-8? !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd; 3. any good reasons why using a comment like this is bad in some way - you know, will I start growing hair on the back of my hands or something like that? Well, some say it is bad not to let IE6 use its not quite standard mode. I think it is a lot easier to treat all IE/win (5+) as one and the same, so I always use the ?xml... prolog. I don't think it is the right place for a comment... :-) I've tested this a bit, and I even managed to throw Mozilla back into quirks mode by using a very large comment at the top. The only browser I couldn't fool this way was Opera. regards Georg ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Comment before the DOCTYPE?
I think it is a lot easier to treat all IE/win (5+) as one and the same, so I always use the ?xml... prolog. Me too. I also prefer to throw all IE/Win into one basket... -- Jan Brasna :: alphanumeric.cz | webcore.cz | designlab.cz | janbrasna.com Stop IE! - http://www.stopie.com/ | http://browsehappy.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Comment before the DOCTYPE?
On 24/01/2005, at 1:40 PM, JohnyB wrote: I think it is a lot easier to treat all IE/win (5+) as one and the same, so I always use the ?xml... prolog. OK, will prolly do this, Although being the postmodernist that I am, I'm quite enjoying the doc as it is now, with a comment which refers to the fact that this is a comment :-) thx for everyone's directions though - very much appreciated Maxine http://westciv.typepad.com/standards/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Horizontal list width
Hi Everyone, Im wanting to re-create my horizontal navigation the semantically correct way by using an unordered list. Is it possible to make it liquid (span the width of the browser window or container)? At the moment it seems the browser displays each li at the same width of the largest li. An example of what I'm trying to do is here: http://www.cqtafe.com/site/temp/default.htm Also if you could include any expected variances in how each browser renders any solutions that you have - I would be very greatful! Thanks, Cara Williams =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= WEB OFFICER CQ TAFE Mackay Campus web www.cqtafe.com email [EMAIL PROTECTED] phone (07) 4940 3206 fax (07) 4940 3355 This email (including any attached file) is intended only for the addressee(s). The advice given may be specific to a particular situation and the author disclaims liability for its use for any purpose other than that originally intended by the author. Any transmission or distribution of this email (whether in whole or in part) is strictly prohibited without the author's prior informed consent. Opinions expressed in this email are those of the sender and do not necessarily represent the views of the Department of Employment and Training. The legal privilege and confidentiality attached to this email is not waived, lost or destroyed by reason of a mistaken delivery to you. If you have received this email in error, please immediately notify the author by telephone and delete this message and any copies of this message from your computer system network. Thank you. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Horizontal list width
Williams, Cara wrote: ... Is it possible to make it liquid (span the width of the browser window or container)? At the moment it seems the browser displays each li at the same width of the largest li. ... Try using % widths for the li. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Has news.com.au redesigned to Standards?
I had a pleasant surprise this morning when I saw this redesign. Good to see another big site making the effort. Mmm, I had a pleasant surprise; followed by disappointment; followed by a rude shock; followed by sustained aggravation. Pleasant surprise: hey, looks nice. Disappointment: not a single heading tag, paragraph or unordered list to be found. Rude shock: crashes Opera. Restart Opera - crashes instantly. Have to lose the other windows as well to get back to the site. Hope the error does not reoccur. Sustained aggravation: They've included a time-based REFRESH on their feedback page. So if you take more than a couple of minutes to give real feedback, the page reloads and you lose the information you are trying to send to them. They got my short, cranky third attempt :) Looks to me like cargo cult standards - they know they're supposed to use CSS, but they don't actually know why. Which is how you get a href=blah class=h1 -- --- http://cheshrkat.blogspot.com/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
