Re: [WSG] divitis - a worthy goal?
2005/9/9, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED]: ... Thus, we want our markup to have as much information as possible, so that every block level element has a title, every object has its alternative content, every acronym has its definition, etc. ... No, I don't want to have as much information as possible, I only want relevant and necessary information. Ending up in wordletter char=tt/letterletter char=hi/letterletter char=ii/letterletter char=ss/letter/word does not impress me at all. Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Tables - a challenge!
Christian Montoya wrote: http://www.jakpsatweb.cz/css/css-vertical-center-solution.html Does not work in MacIE. http://www.kriton.de/CSS/zentrieren/alle-zentriert.html would be another one. Tom Livingston wrote: http://www.wpdfd.com/editorial/thebox/deadcentre4.html Does need given dimensions for the centered block. Compared with a simple table cell, you need a shrink-wrapped centered box without the need of explicitely declaring a dimension, and it should work in the browsers the users are using. Its not that there aren't good solutions out there. And they are all worth a closer look at the advanced techniques. It's just I think that when you try to center more than a simple logo, the problems begin. Try your solutions in standards mode, in a complex layout with positioned elements and floats and more content of unknown hight, and size/rezise the window and scroll (o.k., on the other hand, thats more than a table can do). The link from Bruno I have provided twice in this thread and the solution of Georg try to limitate these issues. But again: Doesn't dead centering of complex elements risks that the page gets unusable? How to center more content? Isn't the usual three column page an abstraction of the dead center for long content? Ingo -- http://www.satzansatz.de/css.html ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Tables - a challenge!
OK, thanks. I'm leaning also towards revisiting the design... as novel as vertical-centering might be, it doesn't seem practical. On 9/9/05, Ingo Chao [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Christian Montoya wrote: http://www.jakpsatweb.cz/css/css-vertical-center-solution.htmlDoes not work in MacIE.http://www.kriton.de/CSS/zentrieren/alle-zentriert.html would be another one.Tom Livingston wrote: http://www.wpdfd.com/editorial/thebox/deadcentre4.htmlDoes need given dimensions for the centered block. Compared with a simple table cell, you need a shrink-wrapped centeredbox without the need of explicitely declaring a dimension, and it shouldwork in the browsers the users are using.Its not that there aren't good solutions out there. And they are all worth a closer look at the advanced techniques.It's just I think that when you try to center more than a simple logo,the problems begin.Try your solutions in standards mode, in a complex layout with positioned elements and floats and more content of unknown hight, andsize/rezise the window and scroll (o.k., on the other hand, thats morethan a table can do).The link from Bruno I have provided twice in this thread and the solution of Georg try to limitate these issues.But again: Doesn't dead centering of complex elements risks that thepage gets unusable? How to center more content? Isn't the usual threecolumn page an abstraction of the dead center for long content? Ingo--http://www.satzansatz.de/css.html**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] divitis - a worthy goal?
I don't think you know what I'm talking about. The information is not for humans... obviously. Accessibility isn't just about people. The extra information is for, as I already stated, computing devices that parse the data. In XML, you really do have that much information every single item is surrounded by unique tags that indicate exactly what it is. If information is not going to be used by humans at the end of the road - ditch it. Let me say it again for the reading impaired: in XML, every single block-level item is surrounded by unique tags that indicate exactly what it is. XML gives you means to do that, but that does not imply that every single block-level item is marked up. And why block level items are so special? I can wrap-up in the tags whatever I want to. Or I can have whole article stuffed into single something.../something And the whole point of X-HTML is to make HTML more like XML. XHTML _is_ XML... talk XML looking like HTML. So that when you send an HTML document to a non-human reader, one that can't understand text, it can still tell what each element is supposed to be, by how you classified and titled and id'ed it. How is it going to understand titles and id's if it does not understand text? It is good to have titles and ids if they will be used for something meaningful - search, tagging, transformations etc. Maybe thinking from the computing end is easier for me because I'm an electrical engineer. Just think of it this way... computer's don't know english. So they know nothing, what given tag means. And computers only process information, the ultimate consumer is a human being Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Meta attributes and UTF-8 on old Mac browsers
Our site (in French) is all in UTF-8 and we don't use entities. There is no problem with the server (the response headers are Content-Type text/html with no encoding). The pages are either in XHTML 1.0 strict ou HTML 4.01 strict. A visitor told us that, on some pages, he had a problem with the rendering of all characters usually represented with entities (accents et alii). They were all represented by the two hex equivalent characters instead. The result is not pretty. He uses either Netscape 4 or Internet Explorer 5 on a Mac. In Netscape 4.8 Mac (Communicator) a reload would fix this. In Internet Explorer Mac (5.1 and 5.2) it was necessary to manually change the character set in the View menu to Universal Alphabet (UTF-8). Some experimenting found where the problem came from. We had this is the head: meta content=text/html; charset=utf-8 http-equiv=content-type Changing it to this fixed the problem in both Netscape 4 and Explorer Mac: meta http-equiv=content-type content=text/html; charset=utf-8 There is no required order for the attributes, but apparently these old browsers care... I suppose most people use the second order with http-equiv (or name) first, but on our site some of the pages are generated by a script that puts them in alphabetical order. I googled for a similar case (and looked on the usual IEMac bug sites) and didn't find anything about this specific bug so I'm posting it here hoping it may help someone out. If this is documented somewhere, I'd be interested in a pointer. Ellen -- Quarante-Deux : quelques pages sur la Science-Fiction Ellen C. Herzfeld - Dominique O. Martel http://www.quarante-deux.org/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Menu Wrapping in IE
http://www.kustom.com/092005/ In Firefox this menu renders ok but in IE the menu wraps the last two links back under the menu row. Whay is that? Anyone want to take a stab at it? TIA Jeff Thanks! Jeff http://www.patandjeff.com * * Visit http://www.websites4199.com for an alternative to high development prices! Visit http://www.milliondollarsites.net if you just got to spend the big bucks and brag about it. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] divitis - a worthy goal?
We're still not on the same page. May I ask what your experience is with computers?On 9/9/05, Rimantas Liubertas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:I don't think you know what I'm talking about. The information is not for humans... obviously. Accessibility isn't just about people. The extra information is for, as I already stated, computing devices that parse the data. In XML, you really do have that much information every single item is surrounded by unique tags that indicate exactly what it is.If information is not going to be used by humans at the end of theroad - ditch it.Let me say it again for the reading impaired: in XML, every single block-level item is surrounded by unique tags that indicate exactly what it is.XML gives you means to do that, but that does not imply that everysingle block-level itemis marked up. And why block level items are so special? I can wrap-up in the tags whatever I want to. Or I can have whole article stuffedinto single something.../somethingAnd the whole point of X-HTML is to make HTML more like XML.XHTML _is_ XML... talk XML looking like HTML. So that when you send an HTML document to a non-human reader, one that can't understand text, it can still tell what each element is supposed to be, by how you classified and titled and id'ed it. How is it going to understand titles and id's if it does not understand text?It is good to have titles and ids if they will be used for somethingmeaningful - search,tagging, transformations etc. Maybe thinking from the computing end is easier for me because I'm an electrical engineer. Just think of it this way... computer's don't know english.So they know nothing, what given tag means. And computers only process information, theultimate consumer is a human beingRegards,Rimantas--http://rimantas.com/.**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] divitis - a worthy goal?
2005/9/9, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED]: We're still not on the same page. May I ask what your experience is with computers? 15 years of programming experience, nine years of professional web development work, including work on internet banking application. And that involves xml and xsl too ;) On the other hand I do not see how is this relevant. My point is very simple: Because you CAN (so something) does not mean you SHOULD. Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] divitis - a worthy goal?
2005/9/9, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Because you CAN (so something) does not mean you SHOULD. Oh, that should be do something. And maybe it is better to go off list if there is something to discuss? I really do not want to hijack this list attention with irrelevant info... Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] the struggle to get valid
I hope everyone has a nice weekend. I thought I'd share a little code I stumbled upon on one of our legacy includes. pbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbr brbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbr I don't know how many times I have to tell the other programmers. If you are going to use 25 br tags in a paragraph, you've got to close them! How are we ever going to pass XHTML standards? Ted www.tdrake.net (-- no, it wasn't on that site) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] the struggle to get valid
LOL!!! Thanks, I will certainly have a better weekend after that. Iain Drake, Ted C. wrote: I hope everyone has a nice weekend. I thought I'd share a little code I stumbled upon on one of our legacy includes. pbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbr brbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbr I don't know how many times I have to tell the other programmers. If you are going to use 25 br tags in a paragraph, you've got to close them! How are we ever going to pass XHTML standards? Ted www.tdrake.net (-- no, it wasn't on that site) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** . ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] divitis - a worthy goal?
I might be speaking Greek, I don't know. It doesn't really matter anyway, I'm bored of this discussion, especially stating the obvious and being misunderstood. I'm just speaking from experience, working at the hardware level, but I understand it's hard to think from that angle, to understand how information is used. It really doesn't matter, it's where XHTML is headed, when it gets there you'll understand what I was saying. I'm off to another thread. Cheers.
Re: [WSG] the struggle to get valid
On 10 Sep 2005, at 7:18 AM, Drake, Ted C. wrote: I hope everyone has a nice weekend. I thought I'd share a little code I stumbled upon on one of our legacy includes. pbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbr br brbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbr I'm tempted to extend that to 'I hope everyone has a break (or 32) over the weekend...' N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Web Standards Crash Course
I'm suddenly interested in doing a lot of web programming. What path do I follow to see that I adhere to standards, while still supporting older browsers. All the talk of web standard HTML seems aloof. Is it as simple as checking with a validator every step of the way? I just don't know how to approach this, and I'm concerned about how to support older clients. Thank you. -- Alan Gutierrez - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://engrm.com/blogometer/index.html - http://engrm.com/blogometer/rss.2.0.xml ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
