Re: [WSG] The Evils of innerHTML

2006-01-19 Thread Martin Heiden
Joshua,

on Wednesday, January 18, 2006 at 23:56 wsg@webstandardsgroup.org wrote:

 innerHTML doesn't work with XHTML, etc,. I know... and it's not a DOM
 method... but do people consider it okay to use when it seems
 otherwise impractical to use standard methods?

Do you know the discussions at quirksmode about xmlhttp? There are
some considerations about innerHTML and DOM in the comments wich loads
of arguments pro and contra.

http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/coding_techniques/xmlhttp/index.html

I personally prefer the standards way.

regards

  Martin

 



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Re: [WSG] The Evils of innerHTML

2006-01-19 Thread Justin Carter
On 1/19/06, Joshua Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Is it? I'm using AHAH (H = HTML, as opposed to XML) to dynamically
 retrieve some content and innerHTML seems infinitely more sensible:
 ...
 innerHTML doesn't work with XHTML, etc,. I know... and it's not a DOM
 method... but do people consider it okay to use when it seems
 otherwise impractical to use standard methods?


I think the evilness of innerHTML really just depends on the
content. Honestly, even with XHTML I don't see what the problem is as
far as standards go. If the response snippet of XHTML is valid once
inserted into the page (obviously it is never viewed by itself) then I
don't see where the argument is coming from. So am I missing
something?

As PPK says in the article linked by Martin [1]:
It's there, it works fine in all browsers, it can add complicated DOM
structures much more elegantly than pure DOM methods. Besides, it's
faster.

So IMO, innerHTML is there to be used. I don't believe it is any more
susceptible to malformed XHTML than any other document on the web.

-- carter

[1] http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/coding_techniques/xmlhttp/index.html
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[WSG] addEventListener

2006-01-19 Thread Miika Mäkinen
Hi,I'm not sure if this is a right forum to ask this question, please tell me if it isn't...Anyways, what I need to do is to add a onclick event handler to some links, and make this return false. My goal is that users with _javascript_ turned on would go somewhere else than users without. Now, I need the click event to return false, so that _javascript_ users will not folloq the link in the markup. But, for some reason a click event added with addEventListener doesn't seem to ever return false. Does anybody know how to do it? AttachEvent works fine (for IE).
I can achieve this using element.onclick, I'd just like to use addEventListener for the sake of standards...For example I could have markup:ul id=listlia href=""
nojavascript.htmlLink/a/lilia href="" 2/a/lilia href="" 3/a/li
/uland _javascript_:function changeLinks(){ var list = document.getElementById(list).childNodes; for(var i=0;ilist.length;i++){  if(list[i].childNodes.length0){
   var a = list[i].firstChild;   addEvent(a,click,function(){alert('not going there!');return false;});  } }};function addEvent(obj,evnt,func){ if (
obj.addEventListener){   obj.addEventListener(evnt,func,true);  } else if (o.attachEvent){  return o.attachEvent(on+evnt,func);  }}When clicked any of the links, the above example should in _javascript_-enabled clients display an alert not going there and NOT follow the link... but it doesn't work in either FireFox or Opera 8 (on windows XP).




Re: [WSG] addEventListener

2006-01-19 Thread Richard Stephenson
Use the onclick event;

a.onclick = function() {
  alert('not going there!');return false;
}

Its not an issue of standards it's in the javascript not the html.

Richard

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Re: [WSG] addEventListener

2006-01-19 Thread Joshua Street
On 1/19/06, Richard Stephenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Use the onclick event;

 a.onclick = function() {
   alert('not going there!');return false;
 }

 Its not an issue of standards it's in the javascript not the html.

 Richard

http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm

# Implementing Web Standards - eg: technologies such as HTML, XHTML,
CSS, DOM, UAAG, RDF, XML, JavaScript and EcmaScript
# Discussing best practice in these technologies

It is an issue of standards, actually. And best practice in terms
of using unobtrusive JS + event listeners.

Josh
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Re: [WSG] The Evils of innerHTML

2006-01-19 Thread Robin Berjon

On Jan 19, 2006, at 11:15, Justin Carter wrote:

If the response snippet of XHTML is valid once
inserted into the page (obviously it is never viewed by itself) then I
don't see where the argument is coming from. So am I missing
something?


Indeed, I always thought that having innerHTML not work for XHTML was  
a cop out from the browser vendors. If the string is well-formed XML  
(or even just well-balanced XML, which is just like well-formed only  
it does not require a single root element) then there's no good  
reason at all why it couldn't be supported. For sure it's not in any  
standard yet, but that's something that could easily be arranged in  
time if there's interest from the community.



As PPK says in the article linked by Martin [1]:
It's there, it works fine in all browsers, it can add complicated DOM
structures much more elegantly than pure DOM methods. Besides, it's
faster.


I'm not sure it's always much more elegant though -- scripts with  
endless amounts of string concatenations don't tend to be all that  
nice to look at. I think a large part of this perception is that  
oftentimes people will use the DOM very directly throughout their  
code, which can be quite painful because the DOM was meant to be bare- 
bones and infrastructural, something on top of which to build  
convenient methods but that wouldn't provide them itself. IME writing  
small and simple convenience DOM helpers for instance to use JSON to  
describe the tree structure you want and convert that into a real DOM  
tree isn't overly difficult.


--
Robin Berjon
   Senior Research Scientist
   Expway, http://expway.com/



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Re: [WSG] addEventListener

2006-01-19 Thread Miika Mäkinen
.onclick works as I said before... I was just under impression that onclick is not a preferred way of setting event handlers.Also, I wrote this also as I think that AddEventHandler SHOULD work? Shoudln't it?
On 1/19/06, Joshua Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 1/19/06, Richard Stephenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Use the onclick event; a. { alert('not going there!');return false;
 } Its not an issue of standards it's in the _javascript_ not the html. Richardhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
# Implementing Web Standards - eg: technologies such as HTML, XHTML,CSS, DOM, UAAG, RDF, XML, _javascript_ and EcmaScript# Discussing best practice in these technologiesIt is an issue of standards, actually. And best practice in terms
of using unobtrusive JS + event listeners.Josh**The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/
 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list  getting help**



Re: [WSG] addEventListener

2006-01-19 Thread Richard Stephenson
Fair enough. Being a bit hast there wasn't i. However the support of
the DOM2 Event handlers standards is still incomplete so as far i know
and Mozilla apperas to have a bug with the return value. That may be
your problem.

http://www.gerd-riesselmann.net/archives/2005/03/a-firefox-javascript-bug


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Re: [WSG] addEventListener

2006-01-19 Thread Martin Heiden
Miika,

Today is my quirksmode day ;-)

http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2005/10/_and_the_winner_1.html
http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/coding_techniques/memory_leaks/index.html

I tend to use .onclick for attaching events to links, because it has
fewer cross browser issues than the modern event listeners.

But I prefer to use event listeners for events like window.onload.

regards

  Martin

 



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Re: [WSG] addEventListener

2006-01-19 Thread Miika Mäkinen
Thanks a lot!That's not exactly a bug, it's how it's supposed to work:http://www.gerd-riesselmann.net/archives/2005/04/firefox-canceling-problem-solved
On 1/19/06, Richard Stephenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Fair enough. Being a bit hast there wasn't i. However the support ofthe DOM2 Event handlers standards is still incomplete so as far i knowand Mozilla apperas to have a bug with the return value. That may beyour problem.
http://www.gerd-riesselmann.net/archives/2005/03/a-firefox-_javascript_-bug--DonkeyMagic: Website design  development
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Re: [WSG] addEventListener

2006-01-19 Thread Choan C. Gálvez

Miika Mäkinen escribió:

[...]
Anyways, what I need to do is to add a onclick event handler to some
links, and make this return false. My goal is that users with javascript
turned on would go somewhere else than users without. Now, I need the click
event to return false, so that javascript users will not folloq the link in
the markup. But, for some reason a click event added with addEventListener
doesn't seem to ever return false. Does anybody know how to do it?
AttachEvent works fine (for IE).

I can achieve this using element.onclick, I'd just like to use
addEventListener for the sake of standards...

[...]



addEvent(a,click,function(){alert('not going there!');return
false;});




[...]



When clicked any of the links, the above example should in
javascript-enabled clients display an alert not going there and NOT follow
the link... but it doesn't work in either FireFox or Opera 8 (on windows
XP).


Work it the DOM way:

event.preventDefault();

Unfortunately, IE doesn't support this method. So...

function fixE(e) {
  if (!e) {
e = window.event;
  };
  if (!e.preventDefault) {
e.preventDefault = function() { this.returnValue = false; };
  };
  if (!e.stopPropagation) {
e.stopPropagation = function() { this.cancelBubble = true; };
  };
  return e;
};


Use:

addEvent(a, 'click', function(e) { e = fixE(e); alert('not going'); 
e.preventDefault(); });


HTH,
Choan

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Re: [WSG] CSS Icon

2006-01-19 Thread David Thompson

On 16 Jan 2006, at 12:15, Svip wrote:


I thought that per standard you inserted the favicon.ico file in the
parent directory to the site, and thus browsers would ask for it, and
get it as they requested! The HTML is just if you specific pages on a
site that needs their own favicons!


As far as I can tell from looking through the W3C's site, the HTML  
standard doesn't touch upon the issue of page icons: there are just  
various methods people have hacked onto the existing standards. The  
hard-coded “look-in-the-root-directory” version seems to me the  
hackier and far less flexible version, although strictly speaking one  
should declare a profile in the head tag if one wishes to define  
alternative link types with the link method.


Oh, and if we're still going by the book, the “rel” attribute of  
link is specified to be a space-separated list, so requiring  
‘rel=shortcut icon’ doesn't conform to the proper specifications  
(not really surprising, it being a Microsoft invention); in fact,  
Mozilla browsers (and probably others too) only require ‘rel=icon’.  
The link approach also allows you to specify alternate image  
formats for your page icon, such as PNG.


--
Dave

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[WSG] Title Attribute

2006-01-19 Thread Chris Kennon

Hi,

My understanding of the title element appears shallow. Usage of the  
title attribute within an Object , Frame and link is well documented.  
However, when I encountered it with p title=some titleSome Text/ 
p my was took on a wide-eyed look of embarrassment, as I was unaware  
of its usage in this context. Would someone enlighten on the  
flexibility of the title attribute?






Respectfully,
Christopher Kennon
Principal  Creative Director -Bushidodeep
http://bushidodeep.com/
__
Knowing is not enough, you must apply;
willing is not enough, you must do.
 ---Bruce Lee


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Re: [WSG] Title Attribute

2006-01-19 Thread Christian Montoya
On 1/19/06, Chris Kennon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi,

 My understanding of the title element appears shallow. Usage of the
 title attribute within an Object , Frame and link is well documented.
 However, when I encountered it with p title=some titleSome Text/
 p my was took on a wide-eyed look of embarrassment, as I was unaware
 of its usage in this context. Would someone enlighten on the
 flexibility of the title attribute?

Well, the title attribute really can be used for anything, like p and
ul and etc. But as far as I know, the only thing this adds is a little
tooltip popup of the title in some browsers. This isn't really useful,
it works like you often see with acronym tags, and it isn't used by
most screen readers or other non-visual devices. You can use
javascript to make cool popups that use the title attribute [1], but
nothing beats contextual information.

[1] much like you see at http://dustindiaz.com/

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com
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[WSG] small screen rendering

2006-01-19 Thread designer

Hi all,

I have just discovered the 'small screen rendering' tool in Firefox (web 
developer toolbar).  Am I right in thinking this is an attempt to show 
what a site looks like on a mobile device or similar?  Is it a good 
guide? etc.


Any info much appreciated - it looks as though it's a great tool, but . . .

Best Regards,

Bob McClelland

Cornwall (UK)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk


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[WSG] Glossary

2006-01-19 Thread Pat Boens



Hi 
All,

What would be the 
best way to create a glossary: a table ? a definition list? something 
else?

Thanks for your 
expert input.
Pat


Re: [WSG] Glossary

2006-01-19 Thread Joshua Street
Definition list. It's a list of definitions ;-)

On 1/20/06, Pat Boens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hi All,

 What would be the best way to create a glossary: a table ? a definition
 list? something else?

 Thanks for your expert input.
 Pat


--
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http://www.joahua.com/
+61 (0) 425 808 469
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RE: [WSG] Glossary

2006-01-19 Thread Nic
Hello Pat,

You asked:
 What would be the best way to create a glossary: a table ? 
 a definition list? something else?

Answers.com gives the following definition for glossary:
A list of often difficult or specialized words with their definitions,
often placed at the back of a book.

I think that should answer your question ;) 
 
Nic

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Re: [WSG] Glossary

2006-01-19 Thread Juergen Auer
Hello Pat,

On 19 Jan 2006 at 22:06, Pat Boens wrote:
 What would be the best way to create a glossary: a table ? a
 definition list? something else?

I had created a glossary with a definition list.

(simple) sample:

http://www.sql-und-xml.de/regex/glossar.html



Regards,
Juergen Auer


Jürgen Auer, http://www.sql-und-xml.de/
Web-Datenbanken zum Mieten
Friedenstr. 37, 10 249 Berlin
Tel.: (030) 420 20 060
Fax: (030) 420 19 819
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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RE: [WSG] small screen rendering

2006-01-19 Thread Nic
 

 Am I right in thinking this is an attempt to show what a site looks like
on a mobile device or similar?  

Ayup :)

 Is it a good guide? etc.

Well, yes and no.  The problem is that so many of the browsers for
handhelds/mobiles aren't rendering content the same way (familiar story).

For example, even if you declare a stylesheet for media=handheld, Explorer
for the handheld will still use some of the screen stylesheet.  This makes
it near impossible designing a proper style for handhelds.

Good luck

Nic

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Re: [WSG] Title Attribute

2006-01-19 Thread russ - maxdesign
The flexibility of the title attribute (as opposed to the title element) can
be seen in the ever-exciting W3 technical reports. Two places that are
always a great read, and full of surprises are the List of attributes [1]
and List of elements [2].

The list of attributes shows the title and has info beside it saying its
related elements are:
All elements but BASE, BASEFONT, HEAD, HTML, META, PARAM, SCRIPT, TITLE

Before getting too excited though, an essential read on this topic is Steve
Faulkners The Trouble with the Title attribute [3].

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/index/attributes.html
[2] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/index/elements.html
[3] http://www.sf.id.au/ozewai/

Thanks
Russ


 Hi,
 
 My understanding of the title element appears shallow. Usage of the
 title attribute within an Object , Frame and link is well documented.
 However, when I encountered it with p title=some titleSome Text/
 p my was took on a wide-eyed look of embarrassment, as I was unaware
 of its usage in this context. Would someone enlighten on the
 flexibility of the title attribute?
 
 

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Re: [WSG] Title Attribute

2006-01-19 Thread Chris Kennon

Thanks,

The impression I'm getting from the replies today are title as an  
attribute, has inconsistent interpretation by most UA's. However, as  
an element it is essential to the document. Is this interpretation  
correct?





Respectfully,



Christopher Kennon
Principal  Creative Director -Bushidodeep
www.bushidodeep.com
___
An ideal is merely the projection,
on an enormously enlarged scale,
of some aspect of personality.
 -- Aldus Huxley


On Jan 19, 2006, at 1:42 PM, russ - maxdesign wrote:

The flexibility of the title attribute (as opposed to the title  
element) can

be seen in the ever-exciting W3 technical reports. Two places that are
always a great read, and full of surprises are the List of  
attributes [1]

and List of elements [2].

The list of attributes shows the title and has info beside it  
saying its

related elements are:
All elements but BASE, BASEFONT, HEAD, HTML, META, PARAM, SCRIPT,  
TITLE


Before getting too excited though, an essential read on this topic  
is Steve

Faulkners The Trouble with the Title attribute [3].

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/index/attributes.html
[2] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/index/elements.html
[3] http://www.sf.id.au/ozewai/

Thanks
Russ



Hi,

My understanding of the title element appears shallow. Usage of the
title attribute within an Object , Frame and link is well documented.
However, when I encountered it with p title=some titleSome Text/
p my was took on a wide-eyed look of embarrassment, as I was unaware
of its usage in this context. Would someone enlighten on the
flexibility of the title attribute?




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Re: [WSG] Title Attribute

2006-01-19 Thread russ - maxdesign
 The impression I'm getting from the replies today are title as an
 attribute, has inconsistent interpretation by most UA's. However, as
 an element it is essential to the document. Is this interpretation
 correct?

Steve's article would back up your comment that the title attribute is
inconsistently interpreted by a range of UAs.

The title element is essential in order to create a valid HTML4.01 or XHTML
1.0 document (not sure about HTML3.2 or earlier). You can test this yourself
by uploading a file with and without a title then validating it.  Hours of
fun!

Russ

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Re: [WSG] small screen rendering

2006-01-19 Thread Terrence Wood


On 20 Jan 2006, at 10:37 AM, Nic wrote:


For example, even if you declare a stylesheet for media=handheld, 
Explorer
for the handheld will still use some of the screen stylesheet.  This 
makes

it near impossible designing a proper style for handhelds.


Thankfully, Explorer isn't the only HH browser ;-)

I usually check in with htmldog to see what browser is doing what:
http://htmldog.com/ptg/archives/55.php

kind regards
Terrence Wood.

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RE: [WSG] small screen rendering

2006-01-19 Thread Nic
 Thankfully, Explorer isn't the only HH browser ;-)

Ya, but...  If you want your visitors to see the site properly, considering
the majority of HH ship with IE, you can't expect them know how to change
browsers.  They rarely do on their PC to start with, on the HH is even worse
;)

Cheers

Nic

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Re: [WSG] small screen rendering

2006-01-19 Thread heretic
 I have just discovered the 'small screen rendering' tool in Firefox (web
 developer toolbar).  Am I right in thinking this is an attempt to show
 what a site looks like on a mobile device or similar?  Is it a good
 guide? etc.

That's the theory, but with the vagaries of handheld/small screen
devices it's not the last word.

You might also like to try Opera's small screen rendering feature as
well [View - Small screen]. Again, not the last word but considering
Opera's mobile browser is based on the 8.5 codebase it should give a
reasonable idea of what to aim for there. I don't have a suitable
small screen device to test on, though.

Most handhelds we've seen here at work had roll-your-own browsers
included that were invariably terrible :-/

h

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--- The future has arrived; it's just not
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson
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Re: [WSG] .htm include file into another .htm

2006-01-19 Thread Elton Okada
On IIS you can use server side includes in a .htm file.Do this: Open IIS - website (righ button) - properties - home directory - configuration - Add. So, you will associate the .dll asp to .htm extension like this:
 Executable: C:\WINDOWS\system32\inetsrv\asp.dll Extension: .htmRegardsEltonOn 1/18/06, Jona Decker
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:You wrote:
Using standards, which is the best way to achieve this:1. !--#include virtual=/included.htm --2. !--#include virtual=included.htm --3. !--#include file=
included.html --I don't think the way you include has anything to do with standards.*What* you include does...that is, whatever you include will be renderedby the server when the page is requested, and delivered to the browser.
If the contents of your include are not valid, your page will not bevalid. And if you're a purist, you'll want to put the include call flushleft, and maintain your indents within the include file, so that the
generated code looks pretty too. :)As to which is more correct? It depends on the server. Apache prefersthe virtual setting, while file is more typical for IIS. Relative pathsaren't enabled in IIS6 by default for security reasons. Both are happy
to include things within an include (e.g. include the SSI directive forcurrent year next to the copyright symbol in a footer include) but IISrequires asp code to be included as an asp page, so that it is rendered
in the right order.As has been mentioned, in the right environment you could also use php'srequire or include.But I do agree with the previous poster...the included file isn't (orshouldn't be) an html file. It should be a text snippet of html with or
without other server directives. If you include an actual html filecomplete with header/body elements you'll definitely have problemsvalidating. Most people use .txt, .inc, .ssi, or .asp* as extensions for
these files.(*for IIS versions older than 6, because source code wouldbe shown in the browser if you typed in the include address, but not ifyou used .asp)SSI on Apache:
http://httpd.apache.org/docs/1.3/howto/ssi.html#whataressiSSI on IIS:http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Active_Server_Pages:Basic_ASP_Syntax
JonaWeb ServicesMEA**The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/ See 
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Re: [WSG] small screen rendering

2006-01-19 Thread Justin Carter
On 1/20/06, heretic [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I have just discovered the 'small screen rendering' tool in Firefox (web
  developer toolbar).  Am I right in thinking this is an attempt to show
  what a site looks like on a mobile device or similar?  Is it a good
  guide? etc.

 That's the theory, but with the vagaries of handheld/small screen
 devices it's not the last word.


I was happy to find this news yesterday, which seems to have gone
unnoticed by all the tech sites I frequent:
Opera Mobile Web Browser Now Available in Beta for Windows Mobile Pocket PC
http://www.opera.com/pressreleases/en/2006/01/18/
I haven't tested it much yet but it looks promising, since it uses the
same core that the desktop versions of Opera use.

I also just came across this (strangely I'd never bothered to look until now):
The Minimo (Mini Mozilla) project
http://www.mozilla.org/projects/minimo/

If you have Visual Studio you can probably download the PocketPC
emulator images from Microsoft and actually test these apps running in
a window on your Windows desktop (if you have one).
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RE: [WSG] Glossary

2006-01-19 Thread Pat Boens
Thanks Joshua. It's what I thought ... But it's not what I have implementend
so far. Need to change that: http://www.fastwrite.be/glossary.php?letter=a

Thanks again,
Pat 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Joshua Street
Sent: jeudi 19 janvier 2006 22:19
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Glossary

Definition list. It's a list of definitions ;-)

On 1/20/06, Pat Boens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hi All,

 What would be the best way to create a glossary: a table ? a 
 definition list? something else?

 Thanks for your expert input.
 Pat


--
Joshua Street

http://www.joahua.com/
+61 (0) 425 808 469
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RE: [WSG] Glossary

2006-01-19 Thread Pat Boens
Thanks for the sample Juergen. ;-)


Cheers,
Pat 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Juergen Auer
Sent: jeudi 19 janvier 2006 22:31
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Glossary

Hello Pat,

On 19 Jan 2006 at 22:06, Pat Boens wrote:
 What would be the best way to create a glossary: a table ? a 
 definition list? something else?

I had created a glossary with a definition list.

(simple) sample:

http://www.sql-und-xml.de/regex/glossar.html



Regards,
Juergen Auer


Jürgen Auer, http://www.sql-und-xml.de/
Web-Datenbanken zum Mieten
Friedenstr. 37, 10 249 Berlin
Tel.: (030) 420 20 060
Fax: (030) 420 19 819
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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RE: [WSG] Glossary

2006-01-19 Thread Pat Boens
Hello Nic,

It's what I thought ... but this is not what I implementend!  Need to change
that: http://www.fastwrite.be/glossary.php?letter=a

Thanks again,
Pat  

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Nic
Sent: jeudi 19 janvier 2006 22:16
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Glossary

Hello Pat,

You asked:
 What would be the best way to create a glossary: a table ? 
 a definition list? something else?

Answers.com gives the following definition for glossary:
A list of often difficult or specialized words with their definitions,
often placed at the back of a book.

I think that should answer your question ;) 
 
Nic

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