At 3/6/2007 11:04 PM, Thierry Koblentz wrote:
For me if it fits in a two column table then it's not tabular data.
Yikes-a-roonie! That is the most refreshingly bizarre assertion I've
heard all day. And self-contradictory: if it fits in a table then
it is by definition tabular, number of
David Pietersen wrote:
Sorry if this has already come up... but have you seen these?
http://www.lenef.com/dotleader/
http://home.tampabay.rr.com/bmerkey/examples/dot-leaders.html
And another, One I did a while back :
http://www.webscribe.fsnet.co.uk/menufiles/mk/mkchapters.html
--
Hi guys,
I've been developing websites for quite a while now, (first one would have
been around '98) and enjoy it a lot. I have recently decided to start
offering my services around the Newcastle, Australia area. I have been
focusing lately on usability and standards, which is the main reason
Problem: client wants (insists on having) popup windows.
Question: can they be made OK according to all canons of WSG? (ie
served in a different/alternative manner for people, devices, etc. -
leave aside the js argument, as that I have solved).
Canons! The religion of W3C! All praise to the W3C
Only the transitional doctype is available for new window targets, not
the strict compliance with W3C Papal enclyclicals.
Tim
On 07/03/2007, at 9:05 PM, Bob Schwartz wrote:
Problem: client wants (insists on having) popup windows.
Question:
The target is not used, it is popup via js or regular window without.
Canons! The religion of W3C! All praise to the W3C
Only the transitional doctype is available for new window targets,
not the strict compliance with W3C Papal enclyclicals.
Tim
On 07/03/2007, at 9:05 PM, Bob Schwartz
Hey Dylan,
Great job on the site - it looks really good! I particularly like the way
you've added click to return home on your logo, a really nice touch.
Only criticism I would say is not to do with the standards or anything, but
I'd give a rough idea of how long it takes you to build each
Dylan Lindgren wrote:
If I could get you guys to have a look at the website
www.lagunadesigns.com.au it would be greatly appreciated.
Dylan Lindgren
Dylan,
I think you are off to a good start. The w3c markup validation service
will point to the same few errors on all pages. It is important
Bob Schwartz wrote:
The target is not used, it is popup via js or regular window without.
I raised this a while ago.
One argument is that if the doctype does not allow the target attribute
then you're just cheating by using javascript; in which case, getting
the page to validate is little
Tables always get people dancing around the room, mostly drunk.
The presentation seems unusual as does the term 'table' (possibly
because there's only two values per row). But the most common instance
of tables in print is the table of contents, which is exactly like this.
Try arguing that
Sorry, all the pages were validating correctly half a week ago, but I made a
few changes since then. I've fixed this up, and all the pages now validate
to XHTML strict.
I will have a look at the text scaling and IE6 issue.
Thanks for your help guys.
d.
On 3/7/07, ~davidLaakso [EMAIL
Barney
I don't see this as being a definition list. 39 does not define Chapter 1,
it is an indicator of where to find chapter 1. It is arguably a table, as in
table of contents. Of course it is all a bit of an odd case considering the
web. Web pages aren't paper, and trying to replicate the
Rob Kirton wrote:
Barney
I don't see this as being a definition list. 39 does not define Chapter
1, it is an indicator of where to find chapter 1. It is arguably a
table, as in table of contents. Of course it is all a bit of an odd case
considering the web. Web pages aren't paper, and
On 7 Mar 2007, at 11:52:39, Chris Price wrote:
One argument is that if the doctype does not allow the target
attribute then you're just cheating by using javascript; in which
case, getting the page to validate is little more than a trick.
I believe that argument only applies to the case
On 3/7/07, Dylan Lindgren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi guys,
...
If I could get you guys to have a look at the website
www.lagunadesigns.com.au it would be greatly appreciated. I am going to list
this on Google AdWords under a few keywords once I'm completely happy with
it. I tried to go for
Thierry Koblentz wrote:
President..John Smith
Vice-president.Janet Jones
I see this as something that could be, or even should be, presented
(styled) in a table-like manner, but I would normally not mark something
like this up in a
At 3/6/2007 11:04 PM, Thierry Koblentz wrote:
For me if it fits in a two column table then it's not tabular data.
And self-contradictory: if it fits in a table then
it is by definition tabular, number of columns aside.
I didn't say that. What I said is if it *only* fits in a table then it is
I find this argument interesting: One of the main purposes for popping up
a window when nav leaves your site is to keep the site always visible -
better known this as marketing. By keeping a site always around, the
viewer is less likely to forget about it, and is more likely to perhaps
purchase
In what way do you think that SPANs are better than DIVs? My
understanding was that they were both entirely neutral, and at exactly
the same level as each other, simply that one is a block by default,
while the other is inline.
Regards,
Mike
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On 3/7/07, Nick Fitzsimons [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The problem is that this argument about keeping the site visible is
fallacious; usability research shows that if anything it has the
opposite effect, making it harder for people to return to the site.
Agreed - just wanted to present the
At 3/7/2007 02:05 AM, Bob Schwartz wrote:
Problem: client wants (insists on having) popup windows.
Question: can they be made OK according to all canons of WSG? (ie
served in a different/alternative manner for people, devices, etc. -
leave aside the js argument, as that I have solved).
What about PDF's. Should they open the same window?
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Nick Fitzsimons wrote:
On 7 Mar 2007, at 14:41:54, Michael Yeaney wrote:
I find this argument interesting: One of the main purposes for
popping up
a window when nav leaves your site is to keep the site always visible -
better known this as marketing. By keeping a site always around, the
People who use Windows (= the majority) are always creating 'new windows'
on the PC - mail, browser, spreadsheet, help files, opening files, saving
them, printing them etc etc ad inf. And this is different because . . . ?
It's different because people either chose to open new windows or expected
On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 11:05:01 +0100, Bob Schwartz wrote:
Problem: client wants (insists on having) popup windows.
Question: can they be made OK according to all canons of WSG? (ie served in
a
different/alternative manner for people, devices, etc. - leave aside the js
argument,
as that I
On Mar 7, 2007, at 1:29 PM, Designer wrote:
People who use Windows (= the majority) are always creating 'new
windows' on the PC - mail, browser, spreadsheet, help files,
opening files, saving them, printing them etc etc ad inf.
And this is different because . . . ?
Because they are, at
On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 11:05:01 +0100, Bob Schwartz wrote:
Problem: client wants (insists on having) popup windows.
Question: can they be made OK according to all canons of WSG? (ie served in
a
different/alternative manner for people, devices, etc. - leave aside the js
argument,
as that I
From: Kim Kruse [EMAIL PROTECTED]
What about PDF's. Should they open the same window?
I've had such poor history with Acrobat Reader stability when running
inside a browser that I try to avoid PDF when alterntatives are
available, but when only a PDF is possible, I usually give a clear
This sounds like a perfect application for Ajax. Have the TOC on the
left, the actual document on the right... opens as you click through the
TOC?
Just a thought...
-Original Message-
From: Bob Schwartz
Subject: Re: [WSG] PopUp windows
Example would be a page with a sort of table of
Jixor - Stephen I wrote:
Just a note that most users don't know that you can use enter to submit.
But they'll be darned surprised when they're used to a site that
overrides that behaviour and then go out into the wild wild web.
But yes, in this particular scenario (intranet type app,
Bob Schwartz wrote:
Example would be a page with a sort of table of contents which lists
minutes of the past five years board meeting, the user clicks on one, it
pops up they read it, print it or whatever, then go to the next.
It gives them a chance to browse without leaving the TOC page,
Chris Williams wrote:
This sounds like a perfect application for Ajax. Have the TOC on the
left, the actual document on the right... opens as you click through the
TOC?
Just a thought...
Or, maybe frames - (ducks for cover!)
--
Bob
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk
"As to the question of web pop up windows, I believe most browsers
default to pop up blocking on, and I strongly suspect that the majority
of users are so indoctrinated with the notion that pop up = really
annoying intrusion, that they are unlikely to make exceptions. (Is
there any data on
This sounds like a perfect application for Ajax. Have the TOC on the left,
the actual document on the right... opens as you click through the TOC?
Just a thought...
Or frames! Only kidding, even though they would be way more accessible than
an AJAX 'solution'.
Steve
Anyone remember frames?
It's a plan so crazy it just might work!
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Williams
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 8:23 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] PopUp windows
This sounds like a
Al,
Got an example somewhere?
I Googled around but only found references, not a working iframe.
From: Bob Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Example would be a page with a sort of table of contents which
lists minutes of the past five years board meeting, the user
clicks on one, it pops up they
And so does a regular link (since I can just middle click to open in a
new tab).
Not everyone has a mouse with a middle button or scroll wheel and even
fewer know that they can click it to open a new window/tab.
Can I ask what people view as the best option for presenting additional
Kim Kruse wrote:
And that brings up another problem! Ever tried to book tickets online.
Almost everything pops up in new windows... dates, numbers of
travelers, payment and verification etc and now I've to allow these
windows to pop if I want to book my tickets :)
When I paid for hosting
John Faulds wrote:
And so does a regular link (since I can just middle click to open in a
new tab).
Not everyone has a mouse with a middle button or scroll wheel
There are other ways to open new windows, that was just the method I use.
and even fewer know that they can click it to open a
Not everyone has a user agent that supports multiple windows or in-page
popups (e.g. JavaScript or CSS). How would you provide the additional
information to these people?
Steve
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Faulds
Sent: 07 March
and even fewer know that they can click it to open a new window/tab.
And they, I suspect, would be the people least able to handle
a new window spawned by the webpage. The back button is one
of the first things people learn about browsers.
I don't agree with that. One of my favourite
Hi Bob,
You may want to look at solutions like thickbox
(http://jquery.com/demo/thickbox/) which offers a very degradable way to
open faux popups, or floating divs, and also adds some nice
animation in there too.
This way, if the browser has javascript support (and it's enabled) then
what
How would you provide the additional information to these people?
I thought that's what my question was?
--
Tyssen Design
www.tyssendesign.com.au
Ph: (07) 3300 3303
Mb: 0405 678 590
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Hello yet again!
For the benefit of myself and my students I have started to put together
a cheat sheet of (X)HTML elements. Although only
Paul Novitski wrote:
You'll want to warn users, e.g. with a title/tooltip that says
something like (Opens in a new window). I've been told by a small
number of screen-reader users that this solves for them the
disconcerting problem of windows popping open with back buttons
disabled.
Late to
Hello again!
Firefox 3.0 will support incremental rendering of true XHTML, since bug
18333 has been fixed: http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18333
and http://www.mozilla.org/projects/firefox/3.0a2/releasenotes/
One argument in support of XHTML has been speed (seldom heard today,
On 3/7/07, Michael Yeaney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I find this argument interesting: One of the main purposes for popping up
a window when nav leaves your site is to keep the site always visible -
better known this as marketing. By keeping a site always around, the
viewer is less likely to
What I meant is that the so-called 'additional' information cannot be
additional. If it is essential information then it has to go in the current
page even if someone else says that is not acceptable. If it isn't, the site
will be inaccessible or unusable to some users.
There are all kinds of
table
captionTable of Malcontents/caption
thead
tr
thName/th
thComments/th
/tr
/thead
tbody
tr
tdMe/td
tdIs this tabular
Last time I looked at various implementations of lightbox none were
accessible to the JAWS screen reader. I would be interested to know if
things have improved since then.
Steve
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Dixon
Sent: 07 March
At 3/7/2007 01:23 PM, John Faulds wrote:
Can I ask what people view as the best option for presenting additional
information on a form you're filling out? Ideally it would be visible on
the page itself, but sometimes that's not possible and making the user
click a link to another page and then
Off-topic, in a way, but my heart sinks every time this question comes
up.
Because it comes up a lot.
I would guess that it's the most frequently asked, discussed and
argued-over question on this list. Do we have an FAQ?
One of my favourite stats is that 30% of
browser activity involves
Good! Maybe it's interesting to note here that when working in real
projects, it doesn't matter if the future is (X)HTML 5 or XHTML 2: the
thing is that today (for example) XHTML 1.0 or HTML 4.2 works properly
everyehere. I was unquiet not knowing what to read, and heard this
these days while
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 8/03/2007 7:06:37 am
and even fewer know that they can click it to open a new window/tab.
And they, I suspect, would be the people least able to handle
a new window spawned by the webpage. The back button is one
of the first things people learn about browsers.
I
Steve Green wrote:
Last time I looked at various implementations of lightbox none were
accessible to the JAWS screen reader. I would be interested to know if
things have improved since then.
Steve
I think they're hard for people with mobility issues (aka keyboard
users) too. In checking out
At 3/6/2007 05:51 PM, Thierry Koblentz wrote:
President..John Smith
Vice-president.Janet Jones
In other words, the items in the two columns line up horizontally, and the
cell on the left is filled out with dots.
/quote
I'm
I describe an alternative approach to using pop-ups here :
http://www.netlife.com.au/?p=8
It is hard to describe the benefits of not using pop-ups to some clients but
in my mind it allows for a far more usable web - there has to be value in
that.
Brad
- Original Message -
From: Donna
One of my favourite stats is that 30% of browser activity involves
using the Back button AND that 30% of users have no idea what the Back
button is or does.
Where does that statistic come from? Do you have a citation for that?
The former comes from L. Catledge and J. Pitkow,
and the web, users and people have changed a lot since 1995, I would say so
much so that that stat would know be unreliable...
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 8/03/2007 1:19:56 pm
One of my favourite stats is that 30% of browser activity involves
using the Back button AND that 30% of users have no
I'm curious to know what members of this group think about this. Should this
be considered tabular data or not?
Do you consider a table the best tool to mark this up? Or at least as good
as anything else?
I think a definition list fits better, even though it's a slight abuse
of DL it does
David,
Cool. Thanks for the tip. I'll do a demo for the client today, I'm
sure he'll be blown away.
Bob
Hi Bob,
You may want to look at solutions like thickbox (http://jquery.com/
demo/thickbox/) which offers a very degradable way to open faux
popups, or floating divs, and also adds
What for you makes a list of name/value pairs tabular data?
Besides the fact that name/value is an example of what would go
inside some ths? Or in this case name and position. I guess the
situation I'm forced to wonder about in regards to your stance on this
is this: You have a 3 column
Hi, I am currently out of the office and out of town.
If you need anything, please contact Carmen Cano.
I'll be back on Monday, March 12.
- Nicole
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