Re: [WSG] doing things right

2007-03-12 Thread Chris Price
Bob Schwartz wrote: That's what I thought, but a few days ago someone made a snide remark about them on a test page I had put up, so I just thought I'd double check. Was it because css was being used to indicate a cell was selected when there was no data there (nbsp)? I'm glad you brought

Re: [WSG] doing things right

2007-03-12 Thread Bob Schwartz
Chris, Also, from you(?) (has been fixed), but there was a reference from someone else as to the need for all the nbsp's that populate the empty cells. Bob Schwartz wrote: That's what I thought, but a few days ago someone made a snide remark about them on a test page I had put up, so I

[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org

2007-03-12 Thread Andrew Spaulding
Hi, Thank you for your email. I am out of the office travelling until Monday 19th March, and will have limited email access during this time. For support related enquiries please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED], otherwise I will respond to you when I can. Regards, Andrew

[WSG] .NET generate horrible html, i need some lights

2007-03-12 Thread Gaspar
Hello everyone, I always work with PHP, use it to output my (x)HTML in the way i want. Now a get to a agency that only work with ASP, i just can believe that there's no way to avoid runnet_server, IDs with 1000 characters, the some IDs on img, values of forms with 50lines height, and the form at

Re: [WSG] unobtrusive js, document.submit IE

2007-03-12 Thread Gaspar
I thinks this would help, http://www.friendsofed.com/download.html?isbn=1590595335 DOM Scripting he have somes examples it's allowed to download, in chapter 11 on contact.html see the example. And if u buy the book u will learn some good stuff . On 04/03/07, Chris Price [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [WSG] unobtrusive js, document.submit IE

2007-03-12 Thread Chris Price
Gaspar wrote: I thinks this would help, http://www.friendsofed.com/download.html?isbn=1590595335 DOM Scripting he have somes examples it's allowed to download, in chapter 11 on contact.html see the example. And if u buy the book u will learn some good stuff . On 04/03/07, Chris Price [EMAIL

Re: [WSG] target and accessibility

2007-03-12 Thread Andrew Maben
On Mar 10, 2007, at 2:07 PM, Designer wrote: So I repeat : 20 items for sale would have to be: Buy now, Buy it now, etc... I may be late to the party with this, but I think what they're looking for would be: a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 1 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 2 nowBuy

Re: [WSG] target and accessibility

2007-03-12 Thread Designer
Andrew Maben wrote: On Mar 10, 2007, at 2:07 PM, Designer wrote: So I repeat : 20 items for sale would have to be: Buy now, Buy it now, etc... I may be late to the party with this, but I think what they're looking for would be: a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 1 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK

Re: [WSG] target and accessibility

2007-03-12 Thread russ - maxdesign
a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 1 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 2 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 3 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 4 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 5 nowBuy Now/a This is an elegant solution but has one drawback. The title attribute is

Re: [WSG] target and accessibility

2007-03-12 Thread Al Sparber
From: Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] I may be late to the party with this, but I think what they're looking for would be: a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 1 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 2 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 3 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 4 nowBuy Now/a a

[WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?

2007-03-12 Thread Nick Roper
Apologies if this is slightly off topic, but I'm happy to re-post elsewhere. A client wants to be able to create some draft page layouts that they want achieved. Basically, they want a simple piece of software that they can use to drag drop things like buttons, lists, input fields etc onto a

RE: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?

2007-03-12 Thread michael.brockington
Sounds like a job for the likes of Visio, or Illustrator. Since you don't appear to need anything functional, I would avoid the complexities of NVU or Dreamweaver. You would need to spend five minutes providing the basic shapes, but then it is all down to the user. Mike -Original

RE: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?

2007-03-12 Thread Chris Williams
A pen and a yellow legal pad. Lightweight, portable, can be used on the airplane, available anywhere for under $5, available in a wide array of colors, understood by everyone, supports annotations of all kinds, and is the same sophisticated tool used by 99% of web designers world wide for making

Re: [WSG] unobtrusive js, document.submit IE

2007-03-12 Thread Bob Schwartz
I thinks this would help, http://www.friendsofed.com/download.html?isbn=1590595335 DOM Scripting he have somes examples it's allowed to download, in chapter 11 on contact.html see the example. And if u buy the book u will learn some good stuff . If you (or anyone else reading this) are in or

Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?

2007-03-12 Thread McLaughlin, Gail G
Try Axure ( http://www.axure.com/) On 3/12/07 9:15 AM, Nick Roper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Apologies if this is slightly off topic, but I'm happy to re-post elsewhere. A client wants to be able to create some draft page layouts that they want achieved. Basically, they want a simple piece

Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?

2007-03-12 Thread McLaughlin, Gail G
If you use a Mac, OmniGraffle is a good tool for this purpose. http://www.omnigroup.com/applications/omnigraffle/ On 3/12/07 9:15 AM, Nick Roper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Apologies if this is slightly off topic, but I'm happy to re-post elsewhere. A client wants to be able to create some

Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?

2007-03-12 Thread Robert O'Rourke
Chris Williams wrote: A pen and a yellow legal pad. hehe, or how about MS Paint? poor thing barely gets a look-in these days. I think most of the comps I receive are done in word... Just find something they know how to use already, save faffing around with any software training and the

RE: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?

2007-03-12 Thread Tim Offenstein
Subject: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ? Apologies if this is slightly off topic, but I'm happy to re-post elsewhere. A client wants to be able to create some draft page layouts that they want achieved. Basically, they want a simple piece of software that they can use to drag

RE: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?

2007-03-12 Thread ByteDreams
OneNote 2007 is pretty cool. It's sort of fits in with the legal pad suggestion (smile), except it's electronic, and is closer to a spiral notebook than a legal pad. Comes with a few ruled templates as well, and you can use a stylus! ByteDreams -Original Message- From: [EMAIL

Re: [WSG] doing things right

2007-03-12 Thread Bob Schwartz
So, according the the site Georg posted, the world's most used browser does not support the empty-cells property. In light of that bit of news, would tdnbsp;/td still be considered the wrong answer? Shelley Purvis wrote: No, they should be marked up as: tdnbsp;/td Bzzzt - wrong answer

Re: [WSG] doing things right

2007-03-12 Thread Barney Carroll
Shelley Purvis wrote: No, they should be marked up as: tdnbsp;/td Bzzzt - wrong answer -- the nbsp; is meaningless. Meaningless under certain definitions but completely harmless. Besides, an empty cell is already meaningless. Attack the very notion if you're truly concerned about a

Re: [WSG] doing things right

2007-03-12 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Bob Schwartz wrote: In light of that bit of news, would tdnbsp;/td still be considered the wrong answer? pony warning Of course! You should _always_ follow standard, even when it doesn't work... ...but, if reality kicks in, then you _can_ use td!--[if IE]nbsp;![endif]--/td and apply the

Re: [WSG] doing things right

2007-03-12 Thread Hassan Schroeder
Barney Carroll wrote: Meaningless under certain definitions but completely harmless. Besides, an empty cell is already meaningless. Excuse me? In any DB (or programming language) I use, a null value is *not* equal or equivalent to a space character. In any case it's certainly unambiguous

Re: [WSG] doing things right

2007-03-12 Thread Barney Carroll
Hassan Schroeder wrote: Excuse me? In any DB (or programming language) I use, a null value is *not* equal or equivalent to a space character. Wo! Well said, Hassan. You're right, a string to replace null values is significant. I take back my earlier point - a character could be introduced

Re: [WSG] doing things right

2007-03-12 Thread David Dorward
Barney Carroll wrote: Wo! Well said, Hassan. You're right, a string to replace null values is significant. I take back my earlier point - a character could be introduced with JS, I suppose. How is that any different? The resulting document is the same. -- David Dorward

Re: [WSG] doing things right

2007-03-12 Thread Barney Carroll
David Dorward wrote: Barney Carroll wrote: Wo! Well said, Hassan. You're right, a string to replace null values is significant. I take back my earlier point - a character could be introduced with JS, I suppose. How is that any different? The resulting document is the same. If somebody's

Re: [WSG] doing things right

2007-03-12 Thread Thierry Koblentz
David Dorward wrote: Barney Carroll wrote: Wo! Well said, Hassan. You're right, a string to replace null values is significant. I take back my earlier point - a character could be introduced with JS, I suppose. How is that any different? The resulting document is the same. FWIW I don't

Re: [WSG] doing things right

2007-03-12 Thread David Dorward
Barney Carroll wrote: David Dorward wrote: Barney Carroll wrote: Wo! Well said, Hassan. You're right, a string to replace null values is significant. I take back my earlier point - a character could be introduced with JS, I suppose. How is that any different? The resulting document is

Re: [WSG] doing things right

2007-03-12 Thread David Dorward
Thierry Koblentz wrote: How is that any different? The resulting document is the same. FWIW I don't agree, the content layer would be *clean*. So the user agent gets clean content providing it doesn't support JavaScript. Great. Now all we have to do is make sure that no user agent

Re: [WSG] doing things right

2007-03-12 Thread Barney Carroll
David Dorward wrote: Intranet? Where did this start being limited to an intranet? ... But HTML is not a presentation language, it describes structure / semantics. Internet, David. Honestly, HTML may be very nice indeed, but I'd strongly advise against it for general purpose data-handling.

Re: [WSG] doing things right

2007-03-12 Thread David Dorward
Barney Carroll wrote: David Dorward wrote: Intranet? Where did this start being limited to an intranet? ... But HTML is not a presentation language, it describes structure / semantics. Internet, David. Sorry, somehow I misread that. Honestly, HTML may be very nice indeed, but I'd

RE: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?

2007-03-12 Thread Chris Williams
I'd like to apologize for being snarky with my first reply. That's what I get for replying before the first cup of coffee. It's just that, in my experience, the time spent spec'ing and teaching people to use spec'ing tools is better spent with a rough cut alpha/beta running and people giving

Re: [WSG] target and accessibility

2007-03-12 Thread Designer
Al Sparber wrote: From: Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] I may be late to the party with this, but I think what they're looking for would be: a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 1 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 2 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 3 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE

Re: [WSG] doing things right

2007-03-12 Thread Hassan Schroeder
Barney Carroll wrote: Internet, David. Honestly, HTML may be very nice indeed, but I'd strongly advise against it for general purpose data-handling. Are you honestly going to write these things in HTML, and for purposes other than the internet? When you say purposes other than the internet

Re: [WSG] target and accessibility

2007-03-12 Thread Al Sparber
From: Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] There really is not an accessibility validator in the same sense as there is an HTML or CSS validator. Accessibility is not black and white. I believe your original code is fine: h1 EVERY STREET IN MANCHESTER /h1 a href=esim/btsa.htmlAbout the book/a a

Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?

2007-03-12 Thread Dwain Alford
On 3/12/07, Chris Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But clearly it's your client, and you have to work they way they want to work. this is not completely true. if you are an employee, then yes, but if it is a client, not always the case. they hired you to do a job and it is your

RE: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?

2007-03-12 Thread Chris Williams
I *was* the early poster... From: Dwain Alford Subject: Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ? i agree with an early poster about the pencil and paper layout tool. *** List Guidelines:

Re: [WSG] .NET generate horrible html, i need some lights

2007-03-12 Thread Olly Hodgson
On 3/12/07, Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Iam working with the interface/html team and maybe the team that build the aplications wouldn be so open to that changes, they say that is easiest and quicky putting the native elements of .net tham building, They're absolutely right, it is easier.

Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?

2007-03-12 Thread Dwain Alford
then i agree with your earlier post. i did not find it snarky. it was true what you said. dwain On 3/12/07, Chris Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I **was** the early poster… -- *From:* Dwain Alford *Subject:* Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?

RE: [WSG] .NET generate horrible html, i need some lights

2007-03-12 Thread Jason Turnbull
Gaspar wrote: Could someone give me some links or some stuff that someone without knowledge of ASP could help implementing some improves generate GOOD (X)HTML What version of .NET are you using? There is a big difference between 1.0 2.0. These following links apply to version 2.0

Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?

2007-03-12 Thread Nick Roper
Many thanks to all for the suggestions, I'll check them out. Actually my preference would probably be the pen and paper approach as well, but the client insists that they want a *proper* tool for the job. Thanks again folks. Nick Dwain Alford wrote: then i agree with your earlier post. i

Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?

2007-03-12 Thread Hassan Schroeder
Nick Roper wrote: Many thanks to all for the suggestions, I'll check them out. Actually my preference would probably be the pen and paper approach as well, but the client insists that they want a *proper* tool for the job. In that case point 'em at iRise

Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?

2007-03-12 Thread Sam Brown
NR A client wants to be able to create some draft page layouts that they NR want achieved. Basically, they want a simple piece of software that they NR can use to drag drop things like buttons, lists, input fields etc onto NR a page in order to create an initial draft requirement. No

Re: [WSG] .NET generate horrible html, i need some lights

2007-03-12 Thread Ben Wong
Hi Gaspar, Looks like you guys are still using Visual Studio 2003, therefore .NET 1.1. You should consider moving up to VS 2005 and .NET 2.0 as the standards support is much better. Ben On 12/03/07, Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello everyone, I always work with PHP, use it to output my

Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?

2007-03-12 Thread Tim
I second the Axure recommendation. While it is nearly twice the cost of Visio, it is much easier to use, far more flexible, and actually designed for prototyping websites. Tim McLaughlin, Gail G wrote: Try Axure ( http://www.axure.com/)

[WSG] Global and page-specific style sheets

2007-03-12 Thread Cole Kuryakin
Hello All - I've got a site that has a fairly MASSIVE style sheet. It's quite long as the design spec dictates a number of different pages be layed-out differently. Accordingly, its becoming quite tedious to find certain style blocks that need to be altered/tweaked as development

Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?

2007-03-12 Thread Michael MD
At my company, the business groups often use Visio to produce the wireframes that the design groups then work toward. They also use Powerpoint to produce light specs. I can't say I am fond of these tools from a web development perspective, but they do allow those not familiar with

RE: ~~~SPAM~~~ Re: [WSG] Simple to use page layout 'tool' ?

2007-03-12 Thread Samuel Richardson
I can assure you that wire frames for layouts are used in nearly every design studio that I've worked in. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael MD Sent: Wednesday, 14 March 2007 10:28 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject:

RE: [WSG] Global and page-specific style sheets

2007-03-12 Thread Samuel Richardson
I don't have a problem with it, in fact the site I'm working on at the moment has 30 separate style sheets. However, remember that every style sheet will be a separate HTTP connection to retrieve it, so no matter how fast someone's connection is, they still have to make multiple HTTP requests to