[WSG] Marko is your Yaar! :)
Marko Zurich Marko Mihelcic wants you to join Yaari! Is Marko your friend? Please respond or Marko might think you said no :( To stop receiving emails from Yaari.com, click here. If you have any concerns regarding the content of this message, please email [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yaari LLC, 358 Angier Ave, Atlanta, GA 30312 ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]***
RE: [WSG] IE 7 check please
Hi Tee, For http://spanish-portuguese.berkeley.edu/ - I'm not seeing a horizontal scrollbar in IE7 until you resize below around 770px (after the 3rd column drops below the 2nd). I suspect this is the behavior you wanted since FireFox behaves the same way. One thing I did note was the search heading remained at the right and didn't drop below the second column like the rest of the 3rd column. I suspect it is because it is contained in the second column's div: !-- search separator -- h5 class=fir id=searchttSEARCH THIS WEBSITEspannbsp;/span/h5 /div!-- END secCont -- For http://www.thinkvitamin.com/ - This site has a scrollbar in IE7 around 884px. It appears that this is caused by the footer. In FireFox it just ignores that the right portion of the footer is being chopped off and doesn't give you a scrollbar but as soon as the footer content doesn't fit in IE7 the scroll bar appears. Regards, Kepler -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tee G. Peng Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 1:48 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] IE 7 check please On Oct 12, 2007, at 10:33 PM, Tee G. Peng wrote: Can you please tell me if you see a horizontal scroll-bar in these two sites in IE 7 (not standalone), in 800px wide screen. http://spanish-portuguese.berkeley.edu/ I forgot to mention, in the above site, it actually is about 776px before you see a horizontal bar, but that doesn't eliminate my suspicion that IE 7 has issue with elastic layout, becaus at IE 6, the scollbar appears when the sreen is smaller that 769px. thanks! tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Catch 22 list problem
How hard would it be to have the list start with two empty elements, removed from view in what ever way works best? Mike It would be very simple, though you'd need to use a class for it. Empty list items isn't exactly semantic, however, and anyone browsing with css turned off would see two empty list items, as would those using text-based browsers. I know that's not a high percentage of the internet population, but something to consider. I would probably go with the invalid code at this point, especially considering the fact that the css methods are not supported by IE 6 which as we all know still has it's claws dug firmly into the market. I do not, however, think that the numbers in an ordered list are content in all cases. I think there is a line between when the numbers are content and when they are presentational. Semantically speaking, I think the ordered list should only be used when the ORDER of the items is of importance to the meaning of the document. If you can take away the numbers without taking away from the meaning of the document, then in my book the numbers have crossed the line from content to presentation. At that point they are there purely as a visual means of separating pieces of the document to make it easier to read. Like bullets, asterisks and arrows they would fall in the realm of presentation. Not sure if I'm being totally clear there, but that's sort of how I see it. jm *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] source order
agreed, good message Ben... something this thread made me think about that i really hadn't considered before, and can't recall reading about anywhere (granted i am new around here): with all the skips and jump tos and methods for pulling links and whatnots, i wonder how many people using screen readers ever make it down there to the footer/copyright/whatever-else-you-put-there most sites have the major links duplicated down there at the bottom so the anyone who has scrolled down can navigate from there if they'd like. on the vast majority of websites, this comes ABOVE the copyright portion. the copyright portion is also usually where you find privacy notices, terms of service links, etc. i'm sure they can be found by someone using a screen reader if they look, but it just seems like someone listening to a page being read out would likely move on to a new location before the reader ever got down to that last section. any thoughts? On 10/11/07, Terrence Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ben, this is damn fine summary. kind regards Terrence Wood. On 11/10/2007, at 12:40 PM, Ben Buchanan wrote: Is there a prevailing wisdom in this matter? Content first? Or navigation first? This is a jury is still out issue since nobody has comprehensive data, just small studies and opinion informed by observation of a relatively small number of users. What I think we can say for sure: 1) No matter which way you go, be consistent across the site so users can learn how your site works and trust it to work the same way as they move through the site. 2a) Either way, include skip/jump links; but 2b) Include visible skip links where possible or use invisible-but-accessible skip links (ie. do not use display: none; to hide skip links as a very large number of users will never be able to access them). If they are hidden, try to make them visible on focus so sighted keyboard users can see them. 3) Use meaningful link text and a logical heading structure. Not only is this just good practice and good for SEO... the accessibility-oriented reason people say this is that some (many? most?) screen reader users don't actually read a page from top to bottom. They use features which extract all the headings or links into a list; read just that list then use that to jump around content. Once they identify that they're on the page they really need, then and only then will they read the whole page. I will no doubt be corrected for saying this - please note that I am not saying *all* screen reader users do this. Screen Reader users have habits which are just as varied as other web users. No two people use the web in precisely the same way - but overall trends and common approaches can be identified. Enough disclaimer? :) cheers, Ben -- --- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI
Sorry if this is a bit of a newbie question, but what's the issue with innerHTML? On 13/10/2007, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/12/07, Simon Cockayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Anyone using jQuery (http://jquery.com/) or Yahoo UI (http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/) ? Do they, help to, build nice Standards based apps? Am I going to see green lights* in Firefox for standards compliance, error-free CSS and Javascript...oh...and will the HTML and CSS validate? If you want to absolutely follow standards, make sure you don't use any methods that wrap innerHTML. jQuery has one but it also has a bunch of methods that use the proper DOM methods (appendElement, removeElement, etc) so stick to the proper DOM methods and you will be fine. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Jason Foss http://www.almostanything.com.au http://www.waterfallweb.net http://last.fm/user/rockyshark *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Marko is your Yaar! :)
O my, sorry about that yarri got my email details and is sending emails. Admin pleaes delete this subject/mail Tnx Marko Mihelcic On 13/10/2007, Marko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Marko Zurich Marko Mihelcic wants you to join Yaari! Is Marko your friend? [image: Yes]http://www.yaari.com/y-register.php?i=SCPJ0BIA4VLAO4931188579888 [image: No] http://www.yaari.com/y-register.php Please respond or Marko might think you said no :( To stop receiving emails from Yaari.com, click herehttp://yaari.com/y-email-opt-out.php?param=d3NnQHdlYnN0YW5kYXJkc2dyb3VwLm9yZw%3D%3D. If you have any concerns regarding the content of this message, please email [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yaari LLC, 358 Angier Ave, Atlanta, GA 30312 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] source order
JonMarc Wright wrote: i wonder how many people using screen readers ever make it down there to the footer/copyright/whatever-else-you-put-there I wonder how many sighted users make it down there as well, because for the most part that section of a page can be happily ignored unless you're looking for something very specific (Hmm...I wonder what the copyright on this page is? or Are there any strange terms and conditions attached to this site?). most sites have the major links duplicated down there at the bottom I thought that was a bit old school nowadays... i'm sure they can be found by someone using a screen reader if they look, but it just seems like someone listening to a page being read out would likely move on to a new location before the reader ever got down to that last section. Don't forget that, even for screen reader users, reading a page is an interactive process. They don't just get to a page, sit back, and let their AT read it top to bottom, jumping at links when they come across them. So I'd say it's no different from sighted users. Convention is that copyright etc is usually right at the bottom of the page. If I, as a user, am interested in that sort of stuff, I'll go there (scrolling to it if I'm a sighted mouse user, or doing something like CTRL+End and backtracking a paragraph or two if I'm a keyboard/screen reader user). If the information in the footer is more important than general copyright stuff, then you would need to move it further up the page structure. IMHO, of course :) P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team http://streetteam.webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Catch 22 list problem
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How hard would it be to have the list start with two empty elements, removed from view in what ever way works best? That would be dangerously close to using markup to achieve a certain visual effect though. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team http://streetteam.webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Catch 22 list problem
Jens Brueckmann skrev: there do exist counters in CSS, see http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/generate.html#counters but, as you might have guessed, they are not supported by Internet Explorer. Yes. I was a bit too short on that one... As you already observed, list counters are rather content than presentation, so either CSS or JavaScript are somewhat questionable for achieving your aim. So personally, I would either ignore the validation problem or use a customized DTD. Next question: How would a custom DTD affect standards-compliance vz. quirks mode. That is a subject that I have no knowledge about. I totally agree that a custom DTD is *the* best solution, though - provided it will not trigger quirks mode! I prepared a short example at http://lairx.de/071011/numbering-lists.html Triggers strict mode in Firefox - what about MSIE, Opera, Safari, etc? It uses an extended DTD, where the VALUE attribute for the LI element and the START attribute for the OL element have been added. Furthermore a CSS example using automatic numbering is provided. Great stuff. Thanks! Also: Thanks to everyone else that has replied to my question! Doing some small experiments I think there might be an additional reason why one should be cautious in setting list-numbers in CSS. It makes it harder to access and/or change those numbers in JavaScript. Lars Gunther *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Catch 22 list problem
Next question: How would a custom DTD affect standards-compliance vz. quirks mode. That is a subject that I have no knowledge about. I prepared a short example at http://lairx.de/071011/numbering-lists.html Triggers strict mode in Firefox - what about MSIE, Opera, Safari, etc? Opera 9.23/Win32+Linux and MSIE 6 SP1 both render in strict mode as well. I do not know about Safari though. Cheers, jens -- Jens Brueckmann http://www.yalf.de *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Catch 22 list problem
On Oct 13, 2007, at 10:10 PM, Jens Brueckmann wrote: I prepared a short example at http://lairx.de/071011/numbering- lists.html Triggers strict mode in Firefox - what about MSIE, Opera, Safari, etc? Opera 9.23/Win32+Linux and MSIE 6 SP1 both render in strict mode as well. I do not know about Safari though. Safari, WebKit, Konqueror 3.5.7 : Strict mode. iCab: I'm not sure. Its error console says 'unrecognised doctype', and my bookmarklet doesn't work in iCab. But I think Strict mode (that would make sense for an unrecognised doctype). IE Mac: Quirks mode. Philippe --- Philippe Wittenbergh http://emps.l-c-n.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI
On 10/13/07, Jason Foss [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry if this is a bit of a newbie question, but what's the issue with innerHTML? It's not an official W3C DOM method. When you fill the content of an element with innerHTML, the browser will render it but as far as I can remember, the content doesn't really exist properly within the DOM. The proper DOM methods, such as append, remove, etc. do build up the DOM properly. In a way, it's kind of like embed vs. object. Of course, if you really want to use innerHTML, you could probably go right ahead. But if you are already using a very DOM-friendly framework like jQuery, you may as well take advantage of the face that it makes all the proper DOM methods very easy to use. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI
On 10/13/07, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/13/07, Jason Foss [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry if this is a bit of a newbie question, but what's the issue with innerHTML? But if you are already using a very DOM-friendly framework like jQuery, you may as well take advantage of the face that it makes all the proper DOM methods very easy to use. * of the FACT. I can't write e-mails in the morning... -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Lisa Lau is out of the office.
I will be out of the office starting 12/10/2007 and will not return until 07/11/2007. I will respond to your message when I return. ** IMPORTANT: This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is confidential, commercially valuable or subject to legal or parliamentary privilege. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any review, re-transmission, disclosure, use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited by several Commonwealth Acts of Parliament. If you have received this communication in error please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments. ** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] source order
i wonder how many people using screen readers ever make it down there to the footer/copyright In my experience they often do, although that's not because they are looking for it. Remember that a screen reader user has no idea how long a page is until they get to the end. They may be one line from the end, yet still have no idea what percentage is left. To some extent it depends on the page content. If it's a form they will probably submit it when they get to the Submit button, although more experienced users might look for special notes and validation rules below the form. If it's static content they will usually keep going till they reach content that exists on all pages, which may be the right-hand column or the footer depending on the design. Steve From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JonMarc Wright Sent: 13 October 2007 09:22 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] source order agreed, good message Ben... something this thread made me think about that i really hadn't considered before, and can't recall reading about anywhere (granted i am new around here): with all the skips and jump tos and methods for pulling links and whatnots, i wonder how many people using screen readers ever make it down there to the footer/copyright/whatever-else-you-put-there most sites have the major links duplicated down there at the bottom so the anyone who has scrolled down can navigate from there if they'd like. on the vast majority of websites, this comes ABOVE the copyright portion. the copyright portion is also usually where you find privacy notices, terms of service links, etc. i'm sure they can be found by someone using a screen reader if they look, but it just seems like someone listening to a page being read out would likely move on to a new location before the reader ever got down to that last section. any thoughts? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI
On 10/12/07, Simon Cockayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Am I going to see green lights* in Firefox for standards compliance, error-free CSS and Javascript...oh...and will the HTML and CSS validate? I don't think _any_ Javascript libraries would affect HTML/CSS validation in any way whatsoever, because the validators don't even _use_ JS: they look at the source the way it's originally served up, before any possible JS modifications. Or is this incorrect? Do any of the validation tools revise their validation states based on JS interaction? :Dan Dorman *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI
On 10/13/07, Dan Dorman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/12/07, Simon Cockayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Am I going to see green lights* in Firefox for standards compliance, error-free CSS and Javascript...oh...and will the HTML and CSS validate? I don't think _any_ Javascript libraries would affect HTML/CSS validation in any way whatsoever, because the validators don't even _use_ JS: they look at the source the way it's originally served up, before any possible JS modifications. Or is this incorrect? Do any of the validation tools revise their validation states based on JS interaction? You are correct. But Simon was also talking about standards compliance, which includes using DOM standards. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Catch 22 list problem
I can see what you mean, however that would depend to a degree on what the list-number actually represents: perhaps the OP could give us a little more context? Anyway, no-one has spotted a good answer to this problem, so I merely offered this idea for discussion, as an alternative to other bad ideas - my preferred option would really be to work around the problem... Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Patrick H. Lauke Sent: Sat 10/13/2007 12:25 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Catch 22 list problem [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How hard would it be to have the list start with two empty elements, removed from view in what ever way works best? That would be dangerously close to using markup to achieve a certain visual effect though. P -- Patrick H. Lauke *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** winmail.dat
Re: [WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI
On 10/13/07, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a way, it's kind of like embed vs. object. In a way, but... Of course, if you really want to use innerHTML, you could probably go right ahead. But if you are already using a very DOM-friendly framework like jQuery, you may as well take advantage of the face that it makes all the proper DOM methods very easy to use. (I might well be talking out of my backside here in which case, feel free to shoot me down in flames...) IIRC the innerHTML methods are significantly faster than W3C DOM methods in current mainstream browsers. In most cases it won't make a lot of difference, but if you're pushing a large amount of data around the page, it can be very helpful. I'm not saying you should use innerHTML exclusively -- In most cases I still turn to W3C DOM methods. Sometimes though, IE will slow right down, and innerHTML can be a good way of extracting a bit more speed from it. -- Olly http://thinkdrastic.net/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] source order
Remember that a screen reader user has no idea how long a page is until they get to the end. They may be one line from the end, yet still have no idea what percentage is left. I'd have thought that would be a fairly useful feature to have. I often judge whether I'm going to read something on how long it is. -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
