Re: [WSG] Standards and Adobe Contribute
I think that was the point of both myself and Dave, Todd. Mark's vitriolic rant seemed to miss the point that the technology comes after you discover what the business requires, what their resources are, what the requirements of the site will be over the next 12-24 months, etc. not just say OK to contribute because the client says so before discovering much more important things And as for budget, well, Contribute at $99 is more expensive than many CMSs (twice the cost of the powerful EE and $99 more than Drupal). As you say, a god consultant will discover why they want Contribute and, upon discovering those needs, either continue with Contribute or offer a solution that meets their needs better, should that be the case, but it is the needs of the project that need to be discovered first, I'd have thought. Joe On 03/11/2008, at 12:21 AM, Todd Budnikas wrote: with respect to both sides here, I have had numerous clients come to me requesting Contribute as a solution. I would say the reason, in every case i believe, is the cost. It's a 1 time fee of $99. I imagine, that if you can offer something comparable or cheaper to them, they would appreciate the recommendation and scrap Contribute if the other product(s) worked better, were easier to maintain and implement, etc. I would guess here that the client isn't dictating technology, but budget for CMS. I mean, what are the chances they've used a bunch of solutions, and settled that Contribute is the best and meets their workflow? My recommendation is to try something like http://www.cushycms.com/ which is also free and is a hosted solution. I've used this with pretty good success. It's not without it's limitation, but it's extremely easy to use and met the needs of one of my clients. You obviously could go with a more common solution like Expression Engine, or Wordpress, etc. I would find out why your client wants to use Contribute, and if you'd rather not use it, then your job is to find something comparable or better (hopefully for the same cost or less) and state your case. Mark Harris wrote: Joe Ortenzi wrote: Contribute is not about content management as much as it is about allowing an in-house web team to share tasks without a proper CMS deployed. Thus your coder can code and the content writer can write but it can be all wrapped within a team. This is, frankly, Web 1.0, and your time and their money is better served by getting a simple CMS deployed that meets with their scope and strategy and will be easier to manage for everyone, client included. With respect, this is so much bollocks. The manner of deployment is always the client's choice. If you can offer her something better, by all means offer, but it's arrogant to tell the client you have to do it this way. Many clients won't have an in-house web team - they'll have one person to whom maintaining the website is only 1/4 of their job. Some outfits are still coming to grips with how they should be using the web and need baby steps. While it's a designer's job to help educate them, you can't drag them kicking and screaming into something they're not ready for. Regards Mark Harris *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joseph Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)434 047 804 http://www.typingthevoid.com http://twitter.com/wheelyweb http://www.linkedin.com/in/jortenzi Skype:wheelyweb http://au.movember.com/mospace/1714401 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards and Adobe Contribute
On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 5:53 AM, James Farrell [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Hi Guys, A client wants to use Adobe Contribute for content management. Is there any point writing standards complient code or will contribute butcher the code anyway? Can I use php at all with contribute? Would love to be able to include html files using php to avoid having to change loads of pages everytime navigation changes etc. James I do free work for non-profits, and many of them ask about using Contribute. A CMS won't work for them because most of them have a small existing website that they got someone to do at some point in the last few years and they're trying to change it/add to it/figure out how to do anything to it. They aren't willing to start from scratch and have a CMS set up for them, nor do the volunteers want to learn all about editing in a role based application, no matter how easy it is. These are the people who Contribute is a lifesaver for. I go in and clean up their stuff, make it into PHP and design includes they can't accidently edit and show them how to use Contribute by surfing to their web site and clicking the Contribute button. TaDa - they can edit, sans butchering. Yes there are better solutions out there, but there's nothing wrong with this solution. I don't feel it's my job to tell them that I won't help them unless they get on board with the latest and greatest. I'm here to help them make sure their web site is accessible and that they can change text on the few pages they'll update. For me, the client is always right. They know their business, their people, their limitations. That doesn't mean I can't say, Yes, though we could also do that by but in the end, they make the final decisions and a lot of the time I don't agree on everything, but they call the shots, and we have to be gracious. I try to teach as I go , but I don't force my clients to learn if they don't want to. And you might be surprised how many don't want to. -- Susan R. Grossman [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards and Adobe Contribute
Hi Guys, Thank your for your insights and assistance on this topic. I am taking everyone's opinion into consideration and have received very usefull help and templates from several people. James 2008/11/3 Susan Grossman [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 5:53 AM, James Farrell [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Hi Guys, A client wants to use Adobe Contribute for content management. Is there any point writing standards complient code or will contribute butcher the code anyway? Can I use php at all with contribute? Would love to be able to include html files using php to avoid having to change loads of pages everytime navigation changes etc. James I do free work for non-profits, and many of them ask about using Contribute. A CMS won't work for them because most of them have a small existing website that they got someone to do at some point in the last few years and they're trying to change it/add to it/figure out how to do anything to it. They aren't willing to start from scratch and have a CMS set up for them, nor do the volunteers want to learn all about editing in a role based application, no matter how easy it is. These are the people who Contribute is a lifesaver for. I go in and clean up their stuff, make it into PHP and design includes they can't accidently edit and show them how to use Contribute by surfing to their web site and clicking the Contribute button. TaDa - they can edit, sans butchering. Yes there are better solutions out there, but there's nothing wrong with this solution. I don't feel it's my job to tell them that I won't help them unless they get on board with the latest and greatest. I'm here to help them make sure their web site is accessible and that they can change text on the few pages they'll update. For me, the client is always right. They know their business, their people, their limitations. That doesn't mean I can't say, Yes, though we could also do that by but in the end, they make the final decisions and a lot of the time I don't agree on everything, but they call the shots, and we have to be gracious. I try to teach as I go , but I don't force my clients to learn if they don't want to. And you might be surprised how many don't want to. -- Susan R. Grossman [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards and Adobe Contribute
Mark, you seem to misunderstand what Dave and I are saying and maybe you so angry about something you can't even see you're contradicting yourself and claiming dave and I are saying different things when your examples, reflected back at us, clearly show paralell, not conflicting statements. In addition you seem to think I swan into an organisation and tell them how to run THEIR business, which is the last thing I do. As Dave says, a good website provider works in partnership with a business, and discovers and recommends technology that gets these business needs covered, You are confusing two sets of business aims, one is the client requiring a website that serves his business aims and two a supplier of said website who's business aim is to be paid for a good service to the client, which sometimes means giving them what they need (by working in close consultation with them) rather than what they think they want, which as you seem to be saying, they may not necessarily know, if their business knowledge is not about the web. And you know, my mechanic WILL tell me how to drive my car if I'm doing it wrong. stop riding the clutch, shift gears at a lower rev to save petrol, let the engine warm for a few moments before giving it a load, are all things you pay your mechanic good money for so your car runs better for longer, the expert advice he is good for. Mark, you misread both myself and Dave terribly badly. Joe On 02/11/2008, at 9:41 PM, Mark Harris wrote: Dave Lane wrote: I'm sorry, Mark, but that is not a winning strategy in business. Dave, the business decision is not that of the web designer. While web design may be his business, it's not the business of his client. As a web developer, you *must* design for maintainability. Anything else is a disservice to both your business and your customer. Not arguing, but it must also work for the client, otherwise you are merely building ongoing work for yourself, in doing the maintenance. Offer options, by all means, but the result *must* be within the client's capability set or it won't get used. How much value have you then added to the client's business by imposing your own ideas on their naivety? The customer is not always right. The customer hires you because they perceive you to have expertise they don't, and they trust your skill and judgement on their behalf. If they don't have that respect for your ability, they're not the right customer for you. Fine. Say so and get out, but if you take the job, you take the constraints and responsibilities that come with it. I'm not saying that you should tell them their wrong, but you should explain the shortcomings of the methods they request and explain the advantages of the tools you've chosen... if you can't do that then you probably haven't thought very carefully about choosing tools. That's not what Joe was advising. What he said was: you should never let the client specify the technology, that's YOUR job The technology you decide to deploy should be a result of having defined the strategy and scope of a project and identified the resources for ongoing content and support. which is a pretty tall ask for a web designer, not to mention arrogant. Do you get your mechanic to tell you how to drive your car? He's far more experienced with vehicles than you, so he should know, right? Ultimately, a business must select its technologies (the smallest set possible to do the job well), become expert in them, and then maintain those skills for the length of their relationship with their customers. See, it's the whole become expert with them that's the problem. They don't have the desire to become expert in something that is a commodity to them. Many companies don't have web specialists on staff. If they're lucky, they have a librarian, who does records management, maybe a little DTP and gets stuff onto the web. They don't *want* a web designer on board, or they'd be hiring one instead of farming the work out to you. If that's how they see it, that's their business. Myself, I'd try to get them to see that it's a major strategic part of their future business *but* if they won't go there, I'm going to build them something they feel comfortable with, with an outline of what it could become, if appropriate. I'm not going to push a company into Web 2.0 if they still believe a little man sits in the printer pushing out paper. I completely agree with Joe's statement - using an app like Contribute is a step backwards in most cases, both for the customer and for the web. If it works for them, it's their call. A simple site set up by someone who knows what they're doing can be managed just fine with Contribute. It's not likely to win any awards (and it probably won't do a lot for their bottom line) but we don't always get to paint the Mona Lisa. Sometimes,
[WSG] I am away on leave [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
I am away on leave returning on Monday, 10 November 2008, if you have a request for Customs web admin please send it to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Regards Nathan Nathan Franklin Web Admin | IT Applications | Australian Customs Service Ph: (02) 6275 6357 | http://www.customs.gov.au http://www.customs.gov.au/ IMPORTANT: * This transmission is intended for the use of the addressee only and might contain sensitive or legally privileged information. If you are NOT the intended recipient, you are notified that any use or dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you receive this transmission in error, please notify the author immediately by telephone and delete all copies of this transmission together with any attachments. * The Australian Customs Service DOES NOT AUTHORISE the recipient to further disclose this email or its contents without permission of the originator. * Unsolicited commercial emails MUST NOT be forwarded to the originator of this transmission unless prior consent has been given. *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] button name present and some CSS issues
Thanks Thierry, Indeed the problem lies with IE6. It gets worse though, Internet Explorer 6 has a further bug where it will treat all button elements as successful controls, and submit their data to the server, even if they were not clicked. This effectively makes using multiple button elements impossible. Back to using input type=submit buttons for now. The *position: relative* trick also worked. thanks a lot. -- Kind regards, Taco Fleur clickfind™ - The new Australian Online Marketing Platform (OMP) http://www.onlinemarketingplatform.com.au http://www.clickfind.com.au *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
