Re: [WSG] :hover accessibility

2003-12-02 Thread Moose

does anyone else feel that :hover is a little too enticing and likely to
lead to some accessibility issues?
No. I seriously hope this part of CSS doesn't get blacklisted as 
inaccessible.

depends on what you're using it for of course,
Exactly. Any tool can be misused in a variety of ways. There is no 
inherent trouble with rope, per se. Yet it can be deadly, if used in a 
certain way...

rollover images is a non-issue, but for things like rollover menus, 
where's the keyboard support?
As long as there is at least one equivalent alternative navigation method 
provided, rollover menus don't hurt, but only add a layer of functionality 
for a subset of users.

M.

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[WSG] :hover accessibility

2003-12-02 Thread Ben Boyle


does anyone else feel that :hover is a little too enticing and likely to
lead to some accessibility issues? depends on what you're using it for of
course, rollover images is a non-issue, but for things like rollover menus,
where's the keyboard support?

just a random thought.

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[WSG] Russ strikes again

2003-12-02 Thread Mark Stanton


I swear /. is next.

http://www.webstandards.org/buzz/archive/2003_12.html#a000259

Can you spell T_tal W_rld D_mination? Well done Russ, keep up the mighty
fine work.


Cheers

Mark


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Re: [WSG] Scrollbar Colouring...

2003-12-02 Thread Veine K Vikberg

Hello Chris;
At 04:28 AM 12/3/2003 +1100, you wrote:
I have
noticed that the scrollbar colouring is not a standard piece of CSS
material
For example:
Body
{
background-color: #EE;
scrollbar-base-color: #808080;
scrollbar-arrow-color: #808080;
scrollbar-darkshadow-color: #008000;
scrollbar-face-color: #808080;
scrollbar-highlight-color: #FF;
scrollbar-shadow-color: #FF;
scrollbar-3dlight-color: #808080;
}

That is claimed to be correct CSS, and it
works in Internet Explorer but when you use the W3C CSS Validator,
it comes up saying that the scrollbar-base-color etc are not
functions. I don t know why its not real CSS because it seems to work, I
am curious if it works in other browsers other that IE, I cannot test
that s why I am posting this here
It is only valid in Internet Explorer and is a proprietary use of CSS and
afaik never even be considered to be included into css, as it's not
really about how the page itself displays, but rather dabbling with the
values of the user defined browser settings.
I would not use them, as the code, as you know already can't validate,
and secondly it's for IE only.
 HTH
 ~Veine

Veine K Vikberg
http://www.vikberg.net
Professional Web Guru




Re: [WSG] Scrollbar Colouring...

2003-12-02 Thread Neil Christensen



 . . .it works in 
Internet Explorer.

That's because scrollbar coloring 
is Microsoft proprietary CSS.Furthermore, it is not defined 
orendorsed by the W3C. (http://www.w3.org/Style/Examples/007/scrollbars.html)
Neil ChristensenWeb CoordinatorSalt Lake City School 
District
WEBSITE: http://www.slc.k12.ut.us


RE: [WSG] Scrollbar Colouring...

2003-12-02 Thread Peter Firminger



Hi Chris,

I think the first thing is that it's an annoyance to some 
(read: me). Whenever I look at http://virginblue.com.au/ I groan and think 
that some little kid had a field day with Frontpage. (Hopefully the author isn't 
on the list. Sorry if you are.) Let the system do the chrome elements. This is a 
personal opinion only, but I think it looks like an amateur trick and resides in 
the same basket as auto-play midi files (those sea-shanties... YUK) and animated 
flags.

More 
importantly,it doesn't validate. This alone puts it out of ourcode 
practice.

http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=http://virginblue.com.au/CSS/virginblue.csswarning=1profile="">

I 
recommend against it.

I 
wouldn't have written just to say that, so the real message is: Is everyone else 
getting everything twice or is it just me? (please answer to [EMAIL PROTECTED])

Regards,

Peter 
(Listdad)




  
  
  From: Chris Stratford 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 
  4:29 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [WSG] 
  Scrollbar Colouring...
  
  
  I have noticed that the 
  scrollbar colouring is not a standard piece of CSS material
  
  For example:
  
  Body
  {
  background-color: 
  #EE;
  scrollbar-base-color: 
  #808080;
  scrollbar-arrow-color: 
  #808080;
  scrollbar-darkshadow-color: 
  #008000;
  scrollbar-face-color: 
  #808080;
  scrollbar-highlight-color: 
  #FF;
  scrollbar-shadow-color: 
  #FF;
  scrollbar-3dlight-color: 
  #808080;
  }
  
  That is claimed to be correct 
  CSS, and it works in Internet Explorer 
   but when you use the W3C CSS Validator, it comes up saying that 
  the scrollbar-base-color etc are not functions. I dont know why its not real 
  CSS because it seems to work, I am curious if it works in other browsers other 
  that IE, I cannot test thats why I am posting this here
  Sorry again  this is my 
  2nd email I apologise if its majorly newbified
  
  Just wondering what the others 
  think
  I am currently remodelling my 
  website, and as such I am going to make sure it adheres to HTML 4.01 and CSS 
  standards.
  So I need some advice, whether I 
  should use the scroll-bar colouring technique or not.
  
  Thanks people!
  
  
  
   Chris 
  Stratford [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.neester.com 
  
  


[WSG] Web standards brain dump...

2003-12-02 Thread russ weakley
I am going to do a quick talk about web standards to a group of final year
students tomorrow.

As with all of us, I'm up to my eyeballs in work. So, I thought I'd do a
brain dump and then get feedback from the group.

Lean and clean! Building a site with web standards
 http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/sit2003/index.htm

This mini site is simply a series of points that I'll probably cover - so
they are not in-depth. The questions are:

Anything you'd add if you were presenting the topic of web standards?
What do web standards mean to you?

I'd love feedback, and this is on-topic as it is the crux of what we are all
on the list for. However, if you want to respond, please keep your feedback
brief and to the point please. Also, there are students or lecturers on this
list, so no anti-student/lecturer stuff  :)

Thanks
Russ

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Re: [WSG] Scrollbar Colouring...

2003-12-02 Thread Rob Halff

I think it's a shame it isn't part of the CSS specification, how about when
using overflow: auto; ?

The scrollbar can be in the middle of the page and will be the only element
that isn't styleable..  which kinda ..ucks.. :-)
To my opinion every element appearing inside the page should be styleable by
CSS.

Greetings,

Rob Halff


It is only valid in Internet Explorer and is a proprietary use of CSS and
afaik never even be considered to be included into css, as it's not really
about how the page itself displays, but rather dabbling with the values of
the user defined browser settings.

I would not use them, as the code, as you know already can't validate, and
secondly it's for IE only.

  HTH
~Veine


Veine K Vikberg
http://www.vikberg.net
Professional Web Guru

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RE: [WSG] Russ strikes again

2003-12-02 Thread Lindsay Evans

Mark Stanton wrote:
 I swear /. is next.
 
 http://www.webstandards.org/buzz/archive/2003_12.html#a000259
 
 Can you spell T_tal W_rld D_mination? Well done Russ, keep up the
 mighty fine work. 

heh - Russ Weaklyorial

Still no Russ Method though :)

-- 
 Lindsay Evans.
 Developer,
 Red Square Productions.

 [p] 8596.4000
 [f] 8596.4001
 [w] www.redsquare.com.au

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Re: [WSG] Scrollbar Colouring...

2003-12-02 Thread James Ellis
Hi

Scrollbars are browser widgets, not the viewport - this is why valid 
CSS2 doesn't include the MS only values you mention.

Scrollbars are set by the OS - they should remain consistent with the 
other programs a user is using to ensure a consistent experience. For 
instance setting a scrollbar colour on Safari users may produce some 
strange results as we would be departing from the default Aqua 
interface. Letting the user choose - i.e the skinnability of XP, Mozilla 
and Opera is a better router to follow.

The CSS3 user interface makes some good reading (and who doesn't like 
reading w3c documents??) on stuff coming up - including selectors.

Cheers
James
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RE: [WSG] Scrollbar Colouring...

2003-12-02 Thread Mark Stanton

Hey Chris

As people have mentioned scroll bar colouring is not part of the W3C spec
yadda, yadda..

My 2c, personally I don't like changing scroll bar colours and other aspects
of the user's environment, but for certain clients we will do it. It
doesn't have any detrimental effect in other browsers so it really comes
down to the target audience and the job in question.

The background for *why* this isn't in the spec goes something like this:

1) CSS is designed for controlling the presentation of a document not of the
browser.

The scroll bars are browser widgets (like drop boxes), title bars and menu
items. They are not part of the document itself. But what about
overflow:auto? Its a fine line but that's where they drew it, text inputs
are part of the document, but drop boxes (select) are kinda half part of
the document and half part of the browser or OS.

I believe that leaving the Browser/OS environment untouched is a good thing
about 99% of the time. Some users tend to get confused when you do something
as simple as change the scroll bar colours - the logical link between what
they are seeing and what they are able to do is suddenly lost on them.

2) Who said anything about scroll bars? Assuming that scroll bars actually
exist in your users environment is kind of against the whole concept of CSS
and web standards. There are numerous user agents that don't have scroll
bars and I think there are likely to be more in the future.

Screen readers, some text only browsers and futuristic 3D browsing
applications with matrix like widgets all come to mind.

Anyway... go for it if you like but you won't sneak past the validator.
Could you perhaps do this in JavaScript (Lindsay?). I think JS is probably a
better place for messing with the browser than CSS.


Cheers

Mark


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Mark Stanton
Technical Director
Gruden Pty Ltd
Tel: 9956 6388
Mob: 0410 458 201
Fax: 9956 8433
http://www.gruden.com

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