[WSG] Re: px em pt ???

2003-12-11 Thread Ben Boyle

Why doesn't anyone push the barrow saying Font sizes should be LARGE by
default, and designers should MAKE THE FONT SMALLER if/when they don't like
it. Why do we aim to please designers and expect users to make the
adjustments? I don't get it. But then, I skipped all the subjects on
typography at uni!

Hoping the average Joe will fiddle with their browser environment is way out
of line, from a usability perspective. You want users to focus on their task
and working in that domain - simple and direct feedback as they accomplish
what they set out to achieve. Having to stop and figure out computer stuff
(yet again) is distracting at least, confusing and frustrating for many. Ah
but reality never quite reaches Utopia does it? :)

But I'm heartened to see that CSS3 looks to include more font keywords.
CSS2 gave us menu, icon, caption, etc. These use the fonts (sizes and
styles) as specified in the desktop settings of the computer. You would
hope, at least, that the user has their computer configured to their
personal preference. (Sorry... doesn't help with the netcafe scenario, does
it). Does make you wonder why IE (in particular) doesn't pick up any of the
desktop settings for use as a default font size. Why is that?

I was disappointed CSS2 never had a font keyword for standard window text.
Perhaps CSS3 will help us finally put the font issue to rest - or at least
down a very deep pit where I don't have to listen to it anymore. Sorry but
I've copped almost a years worth of discussion on this at work, directly and
indirectly. Fonts. Grrr. Perhaps it's time to render all text as images once
more! *ducks*

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[WSG] OT: Opening documents in _blank window

2003-12-11 Thread Ben Boyle

I wouldn't classify this as off topic, it's all part of the web environment
and standards (or lack thereof) of real practical cases are all part of the
discussion!
imho.


I have heard it is possible to configure a webserver in a way that when
someone accesses a PDF/DOC (whatever file types have been configured) the
browser will spawn an application instance to open the file, rather than
opening in the browser window. I dunno if this is true and if it is, how it
can be done. I would *like* to know. I've been meaning to find out for some
time ... thanks for raising the topic!

Having a quick look around on the web it seems this is related to the
Content-Disposition: HTTP header. (There you go: HTTP is a web standard
;)

Anyone know how to use this properly?
Any known pitfalls?



FYI, on windows there are a couple of file types settings which control
the local behaviour for opening documents / spawning windows.

Open up windows explorer, and choose Folder options... from the Tools
menu, then select the File Types tab. Select the desired file/document
type from the list. Press the Advanced button.

You should see a window that lists Actions associated with this file type.
Below this are a couple of checkboxes. The Confirm open after download and
Browse in the same window controls the behaviour when you click on a link
in IE for a matching file/document type.


cheers
Ben

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Re: [WSG] form input

2003-12-11 Thread James Ellis
I've had some issues with validating XHTML with divs in a form. The not 
allowed here message.

Anyone else get that?

Cheers
Jame
Ben Boyle wrote:

label.submitbuttons input
   

...
 

wonder if just
.submitbuttons input
would work?
   

Yep. This allows the submitbuttons class to be specified on any parent
element, not just a label. On some pages you could use label, on others
you could use div, or you could use form, etc.
These kind of open selectors can be really useful if you're designing a
stylesheet that many designers will need to work with (like a corporate
stylesheet). Quite handy - worth thinking about when putting your stylesheet
together, when to constrain stylesheet rules based on elements on class, or
leave them unconstrained.
cheers
Ben
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Re: [WSG] PHP Question...

2003-12-11 Thread Bradley Wright




I'm probably a little late on the ball with
this one, but couldn't you escape the ? characters?

Like so:
print "\?xml version=\"1.0\" encoding=\"iso-8859-1\"\?\n";

Don't see why that wouldn't work. Of course it's almost the same
thing...
never mind. :)

Beau Lebens wrote:

  
  
  
  that's a very valid one that i didn't mention simon :)
  
  i had that exact same problem on my server, where my
hosted site is configured to parse all files as XML and PHP
(apparently) and so I had conflicts - ended up having to use something
like this;
  
  ?php echo ""; ??xml version="1.0"
encoding="iso-8859-1"??php echo "\n"; ?
  
  Beau
  
-Original Message-
From: Simon Jessey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, 8 December 2003 8:25 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] PHP Question...


Another
thing to consider is XML. Some people (myself included) create XML
files on a regular basis. The PHP short tag ? can easily be
confused by XML parsers, because it is the same as the beginning of a
Processing Instruction. For example:?xml
version="1.0" encoding="iso-8859-1" ?
The problem doesn't usually arise, because the server
strips the page of PHP as it is being served; however, it is better to
be safe than sorry, eh?

--
Simon Jessey
business: http://keystonewebsites.com/
personal: http://jessey.net/blog/
e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 



  -Original Message-
  From: Beau Lebens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
  Subject: RE: [WSG] PHP Question...
  
  
  ?php is more reliable - you can
configure a server to ignore "?" as an opening PHP tag (short_tags
i think the directive is from memory).
  
  for compatibilities sake, you should
always use the ?php tag in your coding, but if short tags are
enabled, then technically the 2 are the same (both just define a block
of PHP code)
  
-Original Message-
From: Chris Stratford [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Subject: [WSG] PHP Question...




Wondering,
what is the difference between using:

?
/* php
code */
?

as opposed
to:

?PHP
/* php
code */
?


  

  





Re: [WSG] OT: Opening documents in _blank window

2003-12-11 Thread Bradley Wright
Miles,

Generally when serving PDF type document at my place of work, we serve 
them using a custom HTTP header:

header( content-disposition: inline );

(that's the PHP way to do it).

This works for us because we serve most of our documents as BLOBs from 
the database. If you're not doing that, I'm not sure my help will be 
any... help.

Be careful with this one, it seems to work pretty well in IE, but other 
browsers ignore it. Then again, other browsers generally behave better 
with attachments/mime-types in general.

Miles Tillinger wrote:

Just a question about how other developers handle opening documents e.g. PDF, DOC, in a new window.

At the moment I am using _blank targets.

Scenario 1: User is using IE with Word configured to open inside the IE window.  When the user clicks on a link to the Word doc a new IE window opens and the doc is loaded in that window.

Scenario 2: User is using IE or another browser, but is configured to open Word doc's in Word, not in the Browser window.  When the user clicks on a link to the Word doc a new Browser window open and the user either prompted to Save or Open the doc, or may even open the doc in Word automatically if the user has previously selected that option.  The problem here is that the user is left with a blank Browser window.

So Scenario 1 is how I'd like it to behave in every case, but is this possible?  Since I have no way of knowing how the user has their system configured I don't know whether to offer the link with a _blank target or not?  Is there an accessible standard way of doing it?

Regards,

Miles

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Re: [WSG] Re: px em pt ???

2003-12-11 Thread Bradley Wright




While we're on the topic of text sizes,
what does everyone here think of DOM driven style-switchers? (ala
http://www.mezzoblue.com/ and http://www.zeldman.com/)?

I'm thinking that it's possible people will miss these resizing buttons.
What's the general opinion on these?
Good idea? Maybe trying too hard to have their "cake" (in this case,
the lack of guilt from using pixels for font sizing) and eat it too?
They're undeniably cool.. but how USEFUL
are they?


Ben Boyle wrote:

  Why doesn't anyone push the barrow saying "Font sizes should be LARGE by
default, and designers should MAKE THE FONT SMALLER if/when they don't like
it." Why do we aim to please designers and expect users to make the
adjustments? I don't get it. But then, I skipped all the subjects on
typography at uni!

Hoping the average Joe will fiddle with their browser environment is way out
of line, from a usability perspective. You want users to focus on their task
and working in that domain - simple and direct feedback as they accomplish
what they set out to achieve. Having to stop and figure out "computer stuff"
(yet again) is distracting at least, confusing and frustrating for many. Ah
but reality never quite reaches Utopia does it? :)

But I'm heartened to see that CSS3 looks to include more font keywords.
CSS2 gave us "menu", "icon", "caption", etc. These use the fonts (sizes and
styles) as specified in the desktop settings of the computer. You would
hope, at least, that the user has their computer configured to their
personal preference. (Sorry... doesn't help with the netcafe scenario, does
it). Does make you wonder why IE (in particular) doesn't pick up any of the
desktop settings for use as a default font size. Why is that?

I was disappointed CSS2 never had a font keyword for standard window text.
Perhaps CSS3 will help us finally put the font issue to rest - or at least
down a very deep pit where I don't have to listen to it anymore. Sorry but
I've copped almost a years worth of discussion on this at work, directly and
indirectly. Fonts. Grrr. Perhaps it's time to render all text as images once
more! *ducks*

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[WSG] [OT everso slightly] Gramophone web site

2003-12-11 Thread Jonathan Baldwin
I just visited the web site of Gramophone magazine, looking for a CD 
review. I'm using Safari - the buttons on the site don't work, they're 
all just # links.
I've looked in the source code and am wondering why they don't work 
before I email them and let them know. Any guesses it might be a case 
of this site does not support Macs? Whatever the problem my bleary 
eyes just aren't seeing it.

I'm interested to know the reason it's broken (if it is) so I can use 
it as an example of what to avoid with students at some point.

http://www.gramophone.co.uk

Jonathan

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RE: [WSG] [OT everso slightly] Gramophone web site

2003-12-11 Thread Peter Firminger
Hi Jonathon,

It has dynamic menus that you're not getting in Safari.

A good illustration of not testing (or caring about) cross platform
compatibility.

This is also a good time to point out that if you use these types of dynamic
menus, you must point the initial link to a meaningful address (a page that
contains all the links that the menu would provide if it worked) so that
anyone that doesn't get the menu still has an option.

P

 -Original Message-
 From: Jonathan Baldwin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 9:40 AM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: [WSG] [OT everso slightly] Gramophone web site


 I just visited the web site of Gramophone magazine, looking for a CD
 review. I'm using Safari - the buttons on the site don't
 work, they're
 all just # links.
 I've looked in the source code and am wondering why they don't work
 before I email them and let them know. Any guesses it might be a case
 of this site does not support Macs? Whatever the problem my bleary
 eyes just aren't seeing it.

 I'm interested to know the reason it's broken (if it is) so
 I can use
 it as an example of what to avoid with students at some point.

 http://www.gramophone.co.uk

 Jonathan

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Re: [WSG] [OT everso slightly] Gramophone web site

2003-12-11 Thread James Ellis
Looks like they are using Javascript to launch links. Doesn't work in 
Firebird. Venkman gives it a big thumbs down.

Error: document.newsnav has no properties
Source File: http://www.gramophone.co.uk/inc/navnn.js.asp
Line: 68
The JS file has an ASP extension.

Gotta love those spacer gifs.

Cheers
James
Jonathan Baldwin wrote:

I just visited the web site of Gramophone magazine, looking for a CD 
review. I'm using Safari - the buttons on the site don't work, they're 
all just # links.
I've looked in the source code and am wondering why they don't work 
before I email them and let them know. Any guesses it might be a case 
of this site does not support Macs? Whatever the problem my bleary 
eyes just aren't seeing it.

I'm interested to know the reason it's broken (if it is) so I can 
use it as an example of what to avoid with students at some point.

http://www.gramophone.co.uk

Jonathan

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Re: [WSG] [OT everso slightly] Gramophone web site

2003-12-11 Thread Ben Bishop
It's broken. The menu uses Javascript to dynamically create fly-out 
menus. It doesn't work in my Mac/Safari 1.1 nor Win/Firebird 0.7. It 
does work in Win/IE 6

Without delving, I would hazard a guess that IE specific JS statements 
are disabling the menu.

Cheers,
Ben
Jonathan Baldwin wrote:

I just visited the web site of Gramophone magazine, looking for a CD 
review. I'm using Safari - the buttons on the site don't work, they're 
all just # links.
I've looked in the source code and am wondering why they don't work 
before I email them and let them know. Any guesses it might be a case 
of this site does not support Macs? Whatever the problem my bleary 
eyes just aren't seeing it.

I'm interested to know the reason it's broken (if it is) so I can 
use it as an example of what to avoid with students at some point.



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Re: [WSG] [OT everso slightly] Gramophone web site

2003-12-11 Thread David McDonald


On the topic of drop down menus, i've found Ben Boyle's menus to be extremely useful:

http://inspire.server101.com/js/mb/mb.html

I think Ben's a member of this list, too.

The menus are built with plaint text, list items, CSS and a little javascript and seem 
to work very well cross browser, including Mac IE 5 and Safari. If javascript is not 
enabled, the user is presented with a list item as an alternative.

I've used variations of these menus for quite a few sites I have worked on, and they 
are very extensible and customisable.

Regards,

David McDonald
Web Designer
Melbourne, Australia
http://www.davidmcdonald.org

ICQ:11814164

- Original Message -
From: James Ellis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Friday, December 12, 2003 9:56 am
Subject: Re: [WSG] [OT everso slightly] Gramophone web site

 
 Looks like they are using Javascript to launch links. Doesn't work 
 in 
 Firebird. Venkman gives it a big thumbs down.
 
 Error: document.newsnav has no properties
 Source File: http://www.gramophone.co.uk/inc/navnn.js.asp
 Line: 68
 
 The JS file has an ASP extension.
 
 Gotta love those spacer gifs.
 
 Cheers
 James
 
 Jonathan Baldwin wrote:
 
 
  I just visited the web site of Gramophone magazine, looking for 
 a CD 
  review. I'm using Safari - the buttons on the site don't work, 
 they're 
  all just # links.
  I've looked in the source code and am wondering why they don't 
 work 
  before I email them and let them know. Any guesses it might be a 
 case 
  of this site does not support Macs? Whatever the problem my 
 bleary 
  eyes just aren't seeing it.
 
  I'm interested to know the reason it's broken (if it is) so I 
 can 
  use it as an example of what to avoid with students at some point.
 
  http://www.gramophone.co.uk
 
  Jonathan
 
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RE: [WSG] Fixed Width Design

2003-12-11 Thread Taco Fleur

Can I just say something???

yes.

It has nothing to do with the article itself.
I really can't stand urls like http://www.notestips.com/80256B3A007F2692/1/TAIO-5TT34F
The only way you can access them are via a search engine or book mark, no one will 
actually remember a url like this, it is not accessibile!

http://www.notestips.com/articles/2003/1/ or 
http://www.notestips.com/articles/limitPageWidth
Would have been better.

Is this something for Standards or out of scope?



-Original Message-
From: Glenn Slaven [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, 12 December 2003 9:22 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] Fixed Width Design



Interesting article on using fixed width design for sites:
http://www.notestips.com/80256B3A007F2692/1/TAIO-5TT34F

He makes a good point:

Limiting the page width is about maximising readability. The more 
words there are on a line, the further the eye has to travel back to the 
beginning, and the easier it is to end up on the wrong line, which can 
increase the time it takes to read a page and decrease the ability to 
easily scan the content rather than read it fully. Scanning is 
considered the most common way for web pages to be read. A study carried 
out last year concluded that adults prefer a medium line length, 
children a narrow length.


-- 
Glenn

Religion and science are opposed, but only in the same sense as that in 
which my thumb and forefinger are opposed - and between the two, one can 
grasp everything - Sir William Bragg.

http://glenn.typepad.com/news/
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Re: [WSG] Fixed Width Design

2003-12-11 Thread Glenn Slaven
Taco Fleur wrote:
Can I just say something???

yes.

It has nothing to do with the article itself.
I really can't stand urls like http://www.notestips.com/80256B3A007F2692/1/TAIO-5TT34F
The only way you can access them are via a search engine or book mark, no one will 
actually remember a url like this, it is not accessibile!
http://www.notestips.com/articles/2003/1/ or 
http://www.notestips.com/articles/limitPageWidth
Would have been better.
Is this something for Standards or out of scope?
It's a definitely a usability issue, I don't know whether it could be a 
web standard through the W3C, but it should be a CMS standard.

--
Glenn
Religion and science are opposed, but only in the same sense as that in 
which my thumb and forefinger are opposed - and between the two, one can 
grasp everything - Sir William Bragg.

http://glenn.typepad.com/news/
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Re: [WSG] Fixed Width Design

2003-12-11 Thread Tonico Strasser
russ weakley wrote:

It is a debate raging around the web at present. There are other options
that solve this problem:
FWIW, a few weeks ago I created a layout with EMs as base unit. I've set 
min- and max-widths for better readability.

http://www.webproducer.at/flexible-layout

Tonico

--
Tonico Strasser ?:-)
http://Tonico.FreeZope.org
Contact_Tonico at Yahoo dot de
Check out http://www.WebProducer.at
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RE: [WSG] The 5th pillar - was Fixed Width Design

2003-12-11 Thread Mark Stanton

Hey Taco

Is this something for Standards or out of scope?

Russ has this idea that there are 4 pillars of web standards:
- validity
- semantics
- separation of presentation  content
- accessibility

To my mind that last one generally refers to people with disabilities 
people using dodgy hardware  software
(http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Aaccessibility).

For a long time I have thought that there is a 5th element that is missing
from this list. This 5th element is addressed in good design but its not
really discussed very often in terms of web standards. I think the reason
for this is its kind of hard to put your finger on and there is no buzz word
that sums it up.

I guess what I am talking about is accessibility for you  me. Little things
that make sites easier to use for even expert users. I guess you could call
it usability but even that word has a number connotations
(http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Ausability).

Part of the reason I love the CUE site
(http://www.qld.gov.au/web/cue/overview/) is its deals with this issue in
more detail than I have seen in any one place. It calls it consistent user
experience. But even this tag sells the idea short.

Anyway what I am talking about includes all the little things that give a
site real polish, things like:
- guessable/memorable URLs,
- site structure (logical connection of content),
- use of hyperlinks in the text,
- googlability or search engine friendliness
- tabbing between elements
- font  colour use (beyond just % based fonts)
- using http status properly*
- lots of other stuff

Maybe you could just say that its about playing nicely in the Internet space
(see http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-webarch-20031209/). Or maybe its about
going the extra lengths for your users.

Yes! I really think this is a vital part of web standards. I just wish I
could find a name for it.


* For example this page has moved, please update you bookmarks, you will be
redirected in 5 seconds is insane. HTTP 301 is the thing to use in this
case:

10.3.2 301 Moved Permanently

The requested resource has been assigned a new permanent URI and any
future references to this resource SHOULD use one of the returned URIs.
Clients with link editing capabilities ought to automatically re-link
references to the Request-URI to one or more of the new references
returned by the server, where possible. This response is cacheable
unless indicated otherwise.

Seamless end user experience + proxies  spiders and other clients
understand what is happening.

Cheers

Mark


--
Mark Stanton
Technical Director
Gruden Pty Ltd
Tel: 9956 6388
Mob: 0410 458 201
Fax: 9956 8433
http://www.gruden.com

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RE: [WSG] Fixed Width Design

2003-12-11 Thread Taco Fleur

Now for the classic: What if you're in a internet cafe and you don't remember the url?

Personally I *try* and keep the url clean and easy to remember

[domain] / [object/function] / [key/id]

-Original Message-
From: Gary Menzel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, 12 December 2003 10:05 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] Fixed Width Design



 The only way you can access them are via a search engine or book mark, 
no one will actually remember a url like this, it is not 
 accessibile!

accessible means that the content can be navigated, read and understood 
by the largest number of users.

For me personally, a URL can be as cryptic as it needs to be.

I don't find I need to remember a URL like that.  I either keep the 
email it is in (which provides me context as well as how to get to it) or 
- if it is REALLY a kewl thing I want to remember I add it to my 
bookmarks and give it a name that I think makes sense.

I do remember domains though (e.g. www.mydomain.com).

In most instances I find the names that people give their directory/path 
hierarchies don't make sense to me anyways.  They are just one persons (or 
possibly a small committee's) view of how the information should be 
categorised - and, in my experience, don't map to my view of the world.


Gary Menzel
Web Development Manager
IT Operations Brisbane -+- ABN AMRO Morgans Limited
Level 29, 123 Eagle Street BRISBANE QLD 4000
PH: 07 333 44 828  FX:  07 3834 0828




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RE: [WSG] The 5th pillar - was Fixed Width Design

2003-12-11 Thread Taco Fleur

Hey Mark,

I'm glad to see you could put to words what I could not.
I totally agree with you, I like how you brought the status codes in the picture, it 
has been something I started working on at some stage, but like most personal projects 
I'd let it get dusty. 

---
Yes! I really think this is a vital part of web standards. I just wish I
could find a name for it.
---

Why not memorability ;-))
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RE: [WSG] OT: Opening documents in _blank window

2003-12-11 Thread Miles Tillinger

I don't suppose we're actually 'serving' the PDF or DOC as such, in that we only link 
to the file.  As we have no control over the header of the file, the user's OS will 
handle it however it is configured to.  Herein lies the problem...

-Original Message-
From: Bradley Wright [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 9:06 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] OT: Opening documents in _blank window



Miles,

Generally when serving PDF type document at my place of work, we serve 
them using a custom HTTP header:

header( content-disposition: inline );

(that's the PHP way to do it).

This works for us because we serve most of our documents as BLOBs from 
the database. If you're not doing that, I'm not sure my help will be 
any... help.

Be careful with this one, it seems to work pretty well in IE, but other 
browsers ignore it. Then again, other browsers generally behave better 
with attachments/mime-types in general.

Miles Tillinger wrote:

Just a question about how other developers handle opening documents e.g. PDF, DOC, in 
a new window.

At the moment I am using _blank targets.

Scenario 1: User is using IE with Word configured to open inside the IE window.  When 
the user clicks on a link to the Word doc a new IE window opens and the doc is loaded 
in that window.

Scenario 2: User is using IE or another browser, but is configured to open Word doc's 
in Word, not in the Browser window.  When the user clicks on a link to the Word doc a 
new Browser window open and the user either prompted to Save or Open the doc, or may 
even open the doc in Word automatically if the user has previously selected that 
option.  The problem here is that the user is left with a blank Browser window.

So Scenario 1 is how I'd like it to behave in every case, but is this possible?  
Since I have no way of knowing how the user has their system configured I don't know 
whether to offer the link with a _blank target or not?  Is there an accessible 
standard way of doing it?

Regards,

Miles

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RE: [WSG] Fixed Width Design

2003-12-11 Thread Gary Menzel

 Now for the classic: What if you're in a internet cafe and you don't
remember the url?

My response to that is that the Internet does not support portability of
your personal configuration information properly.

This is what I think needs to be addressed - not what a URL actually is or
isn't.  That to me is the accessibility issue with regard to URL's (not
what they look like).

Over time, I am expecting we will find that the URL itself doesn't matter
as much as it is made to at the moment.


Gary Menzel
Web Development Manager
IT Operations Brisbane -+- ABN AMRO Morgans Limited
Level 29, 123 Eagle Street BRISBANE QLD 4000
PH: 07 333 44 828  FX:  07 3834 0828



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RE: [WSG] Fixed Width Design

2003-12-11 Thread Miles Tillinger

If I had a dollar for everytime that I had given some a www-less URL verbally and 
they've just entered www. blah out of habit, I'd be a millionaire!

Ubergeek:
Ok, enter the URL 'news.google.com'

N00b:
[enters www.news.google.com]

Ubergeek:
No, no no, no WWW!

N00b:
news.google.com, without www?  wow, does that work?  That's amazing!  How about the 
http://?  I can leave it out?  OMG!

-Original Message-
From: Jonathan Baldwin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 11:12 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Fixed Width Design



I agree. I've long advocated easy to remember URLs because, although 
most of us do as Gary says and get URLs directly from email, I've 
observed that a *lot* of users don't know that they can copy URLs from 
the browser so type them out when passing them on, or do it verbally, 
so it is important to have easy to remember URLs and to ensure that 
content is easily accessible from the top of the site. An easy to type 
URL is more likely to be passed on by people e.g. saying something 
like:  I saw a great article at zeldman dot com, just go to the 
'articles' section and look for 'standards'  is, in my experience, how 
most people pass on URLs...

On a related note, when will people stop saying dot and slash? 
Can't we move forward and instead of announcers after TV programmes 
saying wwwDOTbbcDOTcoDOTukDORWARDSLASHeastenders just www (very short 
pause) bbc (very short pause)co(very short pause)uk slash eastenders, 
using the punctuation like puncttuation. Wouldn't that work if it were 
adopted as a convention? It's make URLs easy to remember.(in fact we 
could drop the www like we dropped the httpcolonslashslash

See Malcom Gladwell's Tipping Point for an excellent discussion of 
The Stickiness Factor - there are lessons throughout the whole book 
for designers and web site creators.


On 11 Dec 2003, at 23:37, Taco Fleur wrote:

 http://www.notestips.com/articles/2003/1/ or 
 http://www.notestips.com/articles/limitPageWidth
 Would have been better.

 Is this something for Standards or out of scope?

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RE: [WSG] OT: Opening documents in _blank window

2003-12-11 Thread Taco Fleur

I hope it's not stupid, but how about the ol' Right-click and Save as?

I haven't followed this whole post, but I know it annoys the hell out of me when I 
click a link and it opens up a new window and starts adobe acrobat (in the browser), 
starts loading the file, and consumes all my system resources... (ooh and the X 
doesn't work)

I believe users really need to gently be guided when it comes to downloading 
documents, i.e.

To download any of the following documents, please click the document to open it in a 
new browser, or Right Click the link and select Save As to save the document to 
your machine.

my 2 pesetas!

-Original Message-
From: Miles Tillinger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, 12 December 2003 10:44 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] OT: Opening documents in _blank window



I don't suppose we're actually 'serving' the PDF or DOC as such, in that we only link 
to the file.  As we have no control over the header of the file, the user's OS will 
handle it however it is configured to.  Herein lies the problem...

-Original Message-
From: Bradley Wright [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 9:06 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] OT: Opening documents in _blank window



Miles,

Generally when serving PDF type document at my place of work, we serve 
them using a custom HTTP header:

header( content-disposition: inline );

(that's the PHP way to do it).

This works for us because we serve most of our documents as BLOBs from 
the database. If you're not doing that, I'm not sure my help will be 
any... help.

Be careful with this one, it seems to work pretty well in IE, but other 
browsers ignore it. Then again, other browsers generally behave better 
with attachments/mime-types in general.

Miles Tillinger wrote:

Just a question about how other developers handle opening documents e.g. PDF, DOC, in 
a new window.

At the moment I am using _blank targets.

Scenario 1: User is using IE with Word configured to open inside the IE window.  When 
the user clicks on a link to the Word doc a new IE window opens and the doc is loaded 
in that window.

Scenario 2: User is using IE or another browser, but is configured to open Word doc's 
in Word, not in the Browser window.  When the user clicks on a link to the Word doc a 
new Browser window open and the user either prompted to Save or Open the doc, or may 
even open the doc in Word automatically if the user has previously selected that 
option.  The problem here is that the user is left with a blank Browser window.

So Scenario 1 is how I'd like it to behave in every case, but is this possible?  
Since I have no way of knowing how the user has their system configured I don't know 
whether to offer the link with a _blank target or not?  Is there an accessible 
standard way of doing it?

Regards,

Miles

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RE: [WSG] Fixed Width Design

2003-12-11 Thread Mark Stanton

Just some examples:

2 I actually type in from memory pretty often:
http://www.mysql.com/doc/en/
http://www.macromedia.com/coldfusion/ (which actually redirects to
/software/coldfusion/ - very nice)

and an interesting concept - each item/object has a unique keyword - tack
.html on the end and its a url on this guys site. No structure as such but
still...
http://www.ftrain.com/PaulFord.html
http://www.ftrain.com/Role.html
http://www.ftrain.com/Place.html


Cheers

Mark


--
Mark Stanton
Technical Director
Gruden Pty Ltd
Tel: 9956 6388
Mob: 0410 458 201
Fax: 9956 8433
http://www.gruden.com

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RE: [WSG] Fixed Width Design

2003-12-11 Thread Taco Fleur

Hi Gary,

you always have wise words, so I'd like to know what it is and why you are expecting?

--
Over time, I am expecting we will find that the URL itself doesn't matter as much as 
it is made to at the moment.
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RE: [WSG] OT: Opening documents in _blank window

2003-12-11 Thread Taco Fleur



Any 
more info on this? 
Doesn't it work the same as sending proper headers?

  -Original Message-From: James Ellis 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, 12 December 2003 
  11:04 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [WSG] 
  OT: Opening documents in _blank windowIf you are using 
  Apache you could force a download for these file types instead of opening the 
  file. When the user clicks on the link the download box will pop 
  up.This'd be my preference...CheersJamesMiles 
  Tillinger wrote:
  I don't suppose we're actually 'serving' the PDF or DOC as such, in that we only link to the file.  As we have no control over the header of the file, the user's OS will handle it however it is configured to.  Herein lies the problem...

-Original Message-
From: Bradley Wright [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 9:06 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] OT: Opening documents in _blank window



Miles,

Generally when serving PDF type document at my place of work, we serve 
them using a custom HTTP header:

header( "content-disposition: inline" );

(that's the PHP way to do it).

This works for us because we serve most of our documents as BLOBs from 
the database. If you're not doing that, I'm not sure my help will be 
any... help.

Be careful with this one, it seems to work pretty well in IE, but other 
browsers ignore it. Then again, other browsers generally behave better 
with attachments/mime-types in general.

Miles Tillinger wrote:

  
Just a question about how other developers handle opening documents e.g. PDF, DOC, in a new window.

At the moment I am using _blank targets.

Scenario 1: User is using IE with Word configured to open inside the IE window.  When the user clicks on a link to the Word doc a new IE window opens and the doc is loaded in that window.

Scenario 2: User is using IE or another browser, but is configured to open Word doc's in Word, not in the Browser window.  When the user clicks on a link to the Word doc a new Browser window open and the user either prompted to Save or Open the doc, or may even open the doc in Word automatically if the user has previously selected that option.  The problem here is that the user is left with a blank Browser window.

So Scenario 1 is how I'd like it to behave in every case, but is this possible?  Since I have no way of knowing how the user has their system configured I don't know whether to offer the link with a _blank target or not?  Is there an accessible standard way of doing it?

Regards,

Miles

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RE: [WSG] OT: Opening documents in _blank window

2003-12-11 Thread Peter Firminger



If you force a user to save the file locally instead of 
opening it in the manner in which their browser is set up to handle it you're 
taking away their control of default behaviours. I really recommend against 
this. Let the browser handle it. If they have only the Acrobat Reader,a 
PDF will(generally) open within the browser. If they want to set it up 
differently to open in Acrobat itself, they can change their setup. 


I have all these types of things set as I want them. I want 
to open Word and Excel files within the browser. If you force me to save it 
you're taking my preference away and I get really cranky. Then I have to 
remember where I saved it and clean it up later, rather than it being a 
temporary internet file that is purged automatically.

Whenever a client asks me to force people to save things I 
talk them out of it.

Just my thoughts.

P

  
  
  From: Taco Fleur [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 12:12 PMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [WSG] OT: Opening documents 
  in _blank window
  
  Any 
  more info on this? 
  Doesn't it work the same as sending proper headers?
  
-Original Message-From: James Ellis 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, 12 December 
2003 11:04 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: 
[WSG] OT: Opening documents in _blank windowIf you are 
using Apache you could force a download for these file types instead of 
opening the file. When the user clicks on the link the download box will pop 
up.This'd be my preference...CheersJamesMiles 
Tillinger wrote:
I don't suppose we're actually 'serving' the PDF or DOC as such, in that we only link to the file.  As we have no control over the header of the file, the user's OS will handle it however it is configured to.  Herein lies the problem...

-Original Message-
From: Bradley Wright [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 9:06 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] OT: Opening documents in _blank window



Miles,

Generally when serving PDF type document at my place of work, we serve 
them using a custom HTTP header:

header( "content-disposition: inline" );

(that's the PHP way to do it).

This works for us because we serve most of our documents as BLOBs from 
the database. If you're not doing that, I'm not sure my help will be 
any... help.

Be careful with this one, it seems to work pretty well in IE, but other 
browsers ignore it. Then again, other browsers generally behave better 
with attachments/mime-types in general.

Miles Tillinger wrote:

  
  Just a question about how other developers handle opening documents e.g. PDF, DOC, in a new window.

At the moment I am using _blank targets.

Scenario 1: User is using IE with Word configured to open inside the IE window.  When the user clicks on a link to the Word doc a new IE window opens and the doc is loaded in that window.

Scenario 2: User is using IE or another browser, but is configured to open Word doc's in Word, not in the Browser window.  When the user clicks on a link to the Word doc a new Browser window open and the user either prompted to Save or Open the doc, or may even open the doc in Word automatically if the user has previously selected that option.  The problem here is that the user is left with a blank Browser window.

So Scenario 1 is how I'd like it to behave in every case, but is this possible?  Since I have no way of knowing how the user has their system configured I don't know whether to offer the link with a _blank target or not?  Is there an accessible standard way of doing it?

Regards,

Miles

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Re: [WSG] Fixed Width Design

2003-12-11 Thread James Ellis
You could always tell them to enter
http://[EMAIL PROTECTED]
In Internet Explorer, that'd really freak them out.

http://www.secunia.com/internet_explorer_address_bar_spoofing_test/

Now tell me that IE is a secure browser...

CHeers
James
Miles Tillinger wrote:

If I had a dollar for everytime that I had given some a www-less URL verbally and they've just entered www. blah out of habit, I'd be a millionaire!

Ubergeek:
Ok, enter the URL 'news.google.com'
N00b:
[enters www.news.google.com]
Ubergeek:
No, no no, no WWW!
N00b:
news.google.com, without www?  wow, does that work?  That's amazing!  How about the 
http://?  I can leave it out?  OMG!
 

 

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RE: [WSG] Fixed Width Design

2003-12-11 Thread Gary Menzel

 Over time, I am expecting we will find that the URL itself doesn't
matter as much as it is made to at the moment.

I was trying to say that URL's/URI's are not really for humans.

The URN (Uniform Resrouce Name) is what we are actually talking about.
This is a specific form of a URI that is persistent for a particular
object that can always be found even if it actually moves from time to
time.  They aren't used very much - sadly.


You see, the way everyone works is different.  So to rely on a single
categorisation of a piece of information is actually foolish.

You want to be able to access a single piece of information in hundreds of
different ways.

The URL/URI is only a key to the information.  A URN would allow a piece
of information to be permanently identified but allow it to move around in
cyberspace.  An agent of some type needs to exist to actually convert it
to a URL.

Ultimately, the idea should be that once a piece of information - let's
say a document for ease of conversation - comes into being it should be
allocated some unique identifying key that NEVER ever changes.  Even if
the information is deleted there should be a remnant that it existed
under this unique key (and possibly even still have history stored about
that piece of information).  And that unique key will never be used again.

Then what you need is globally (universally??) accessible mechanisms to 
collect these keys and organise them in any way that makes sense to you as
a user.  Whack it into multiple categories, allocate keywords for it
(which are just another means of categorisation), write notes about the
item, etc. etc.

So - my dreams a much less humble than hoping for memorable URL's.

Hence - I don't care what a URL looks like.  Just that the tools I use
to access resources know how to use them.

I wonder when/if Browsers and websites will start using URN's instead of
URL's ??

Here's a nice page (with a nice cryptic URL) on the subject:


http://searchwebservices.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid26_gci214164,00.html


Gary Menzel
Web Development Manager
IT Operations Brisbane -+- ABN AMRO Morgans Limited
Level 29, 123 Eagle Street BRISBANE QLD 4000
PH: 07 333 44 828  FX:  07 3834 0828




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PROTECTED] and destroy the original. We will refund any reasonable costs associated 
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and integrity of all its communications, including electronic communications, but 
accepts no liability for materials transmitted. Materials may also be transmitted 
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employees do not accept liability for the results of any actions taken or not on the 
basis of the information in this report. ABN AMRO Morgans Limited and its associates 
hold or may hold securities in the companies/trusts mentioned herein.  Any 
recommendation is made on the basis of our research of the investment and may not suit 
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RE: [WSG] OT: Opening documents in _blank window

2003-12-11 Thread Taco Fleur



If you force a user to save the file locally instead of opening it in the 
manner in which their browser is set up to handle it you're taking away their 
control of default behaviours. I really recommend against this. Let the browser 
handle it. If they have only the Acrobat Reader,a PDF 
will(generally) open within the browser. If they want to set it up 
differently to open in Acrobat itself, they can change their setup.

---

How many users out there do you know that actually know 
they can change these settings? Let alone knowhow to change these 
settings.


---

I have all these types of 
things set as I want them. I want to open Word and Excel files within the 
browser. If you force me to save it you're taking my preference away and I get 
really cranky. Then I have to remember where I saved it and clean it up later, 
rather than it being a temporary internet file that is purged 
automatically.


---

Forcing to save ALSO gives you the option to open, OK 
it does not open it in your browser, but in the program it was intended to open 
in the first place (outside your browser)..

I think no matter what preferences the user has set in their 
browser, we should do a bit of thinking for them, who actually has no problems 
opening up a PDF or word document in their browser? 

my 2 
pesetas


RE: [WSG] Fixed Width Design

2003-12-11 Thread Peter Firminger
We must remember the origin of the Home Page. This was the page that your
old Unix shell account browser saved their bookmarks to (the two I used to
use were lynx and I believe the other was simply www). This page was (by
default) the index document in your account directory
(whatever.com/users/~username/). That's why it was a home page, it was where
your brower started (by default). Then people started linking to each others
home pages and the word became synonymous with the top page in a website.

P

 -Original Message-
 From: Jonathan Baldwin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 12:55 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Fixed Width Design


 You and me both. My .mac homepage address has no www - but people
 automatically ask if I've missed it off when I tell them it.
 I suppose if the web were more forgiving then it wouldn't
 matter if you
 typed www or not. Like getting the post code wrong or missing
 it off -
 takes a little longer to get there but it does.

 But it's an irrelevance - time we moved away from it I think as a
 hangup from the old days when people who used the web used
 all sorts of
 protocols in their work (ftp being the only one I can think of that I
 still use, but rarely in my browser).

 It does seem (anecdotally) that people who have trouble with URLs
 stumble at www.

 Pipe dreams... don't you love them?

 On 12 Dec 2003, at 00:56, Miles Tillinger wrote:

  If I had a dollar for everytime that I had given some a
 www-less URL
  verbally and they've just entered www. blah out of habit, I'd be a
  millionaire!

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RE: [WSG] The 5th pillar - was Fixed Width Design

2003-12-11 Thread Ben Boyle


Anyway what I am talking about includes all the little things that give a
site real polish, things like:
  - guessable/memorable URLs,
- site structure (logical connection of content),
- use of hyperlinks in the text,
- googlability or search engine friendliness
- tabbing between elements
- font  colour use (beyond just % based fonts)
- using http status properly*
- lots of other stuff


I think Information Architecture is a term that could cover a lot of those
topics.

Standards play a part in this domain (particularly if you get into metadata,
classification systems, thesauri, etc). Things like RDF, perhaps RSS, Dublin
Core.

Still, I feel that IA is largely part of the design process, rather than an
aspect of  web standards - more a part of web design practices. Still,
highly relevant! :)

Incidentally if you're looking for a good classification system to use on
the web (or with computers in general), dewey decimal works really well.
It's number based so fast for computers to process, and the way it works
allows you to do narrow/widen searching really easily by
decreasing/increasing the number range searched.

cheers
Ben

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RE: [WSG] do people still use bookmarks?

2003-12-11 Thread Mark Stanton

Yes my firebird links toolbar looks like:
- AClientName
- a few links to tools relating to a client's stuff

- Surf
- links to various surf  weather reports

- Boards
- various discussion boards

- To Read
- when I see something I want to come back to it goes here

- Favelets
- all those validators  things

- Banking
- various online banking apps

- Intranet Apps
- Our intranet app
- Bugzilla
- CVSMonitor
- Webmin

- Useful Tools
- Google Sets
- lipsum.com

I use a heaps of these everyday. Don't know what I would do without folders in the 
links toolbar.


Cheers

Mark


--
Mark Stanton 
Technical Director 
Gruden Pty Ltd 
Tel: 9956 6388
Mob: 0410 458 201 
Fax: 9956 8433 
http://www.gruden.com

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