RE: [WSG] Member country count was [WSG] Email Standards?
-Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: Peter Firminger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Verzonden: vrijdag 5 maart 2004 8:38 PS: While I'm at it a quick member country count... [...] Netherlands 1 [...] The Netherlands 2 [...] Mmm... :) Total 309 members in 35 countries Tom Verhoeve, from (The) Netherlands Disclaimer Aan dit bericht kunnen geen rechten worden ontleend. Dit bericht is uitsluitend bestemd voor de geadresseerde. Als u dit bericht per abuis hebt ontvangen, wordt u verzocht het te vernietigen en de afzender te informeren. Wij adviseren u om bij twijfelover de juistheid of de volledigheid van de mail contact met afzender op te nemen. This message shall not constitute any rights or obligations. This message is intended solely for the addressee. If you have received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender immediately. When in doubt whether this message is correct or complete, please contact the sender. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup
El vie, 05-03-2004 a las 00:54, Hugh Todd escribió: Tonico, I need to support IE/Mac, so what would you recommend me to do? Did you have a look at this one, posted by Manuel González Noriega? It seems to work in IE 5 Mac, for whatever reason: http://kalsey.com/tools/csstabs/index.php?section=2 FWIW, yesterday we put kalsey's tabs to work at http://derallyes.com (homepage,top box) The site's in spanish, but that shouldn't make checking the tabs functionality any harder ;) Now, what we'd really like to have is to enhance the tabs for js enabled UA's by using js to swap the ul's visibility. Anyone has a pointer to some howto's/articles on this? I'm not that skilled at javascript... yet O:-) -- Manuel González Noriega Simplelógica, construcción web URL: http://simplelogica.net EMAIL: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TELEFONO: (+34) 985 22 12 65 Logicola es el weblog de Simplelógica http://simplelogica.net/logicola/ /pThat's right. We said Frontpage./p * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Tonico, I guess they don't use lists for the top navigation because it is horizontal and they want to keep it simple. Well, why ever they did it, it's not an argument for or against lists, I think. (Also, they don't use subnavigations) You're right it's not an argument, just an example of a navigation that is not marked up as a list. Last night I've coded such a menu: http://www.webproducer.at/lab/nested-ul-tabs It works fine, except in IE/Mac. I have posted the issue to css-d but haven't received any reply so far. I need to support IE/Mac, so what would you recommend me to do? I don't know, where exaktly the problem is, because I'm not so experienced in horizontal menues. But your css is missing a width for the lis. Maybe it helps. Wow, you noted the missing width! You can't design a pixelprecise horizonal navigation with rounded corners where the items are as wide as its content with CSS, if you want to respect the standard. Can this be true? No, it's possible if you don't use floats: http://www.complexspiral.com/publications/rounding-tabs/ Yes, if you want to support most browsers. Tonico -- Tonico Strasser ?:-) http://Tonico.FreeZope.org Contact_Tonico at Yahoo dot de Check out http://www.WebProducer.at * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Semantic vs Accessibile markup
Manuel González Noriega wrote: FWIW, yesterday we put kalsey's tabs to work at http://derallyes.com (homepage,top box) The site's in spanish, but that shouldn't make checking the tabs functionality any harder ;) Great work. Now, what we'd really like to have is to enhance the tabs for js enabled UA's by using js to swap the ul's visibility. Anyone has a pointer to some howto's/articles on this? I'm not that skilled at javascript... yet O:-) I would simply add, change or remove classnames with JavaScript. Check out http://www.quirksmode.org/ W3C Dom Tests Compatibility HTML HTH Tonico -- Tonico Strasser ?:-) http://Tonico.FreeZope.org Contact_Tonico at Yahoo dot de Check out http://www.WebProducer.at * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Email Standards?
On Friday 05 March 2004 09:37, Peter wrote: Hi Lorenzo, Firstly thanks for joining! You wrapped up one of the two continents we were missing in our members. Only Antarctica to go now (I think?). Thanks a bunch James/Peter. I'll take your recommendations to heart. Actually, I'm a big proponent of text emails. It's just that the customer defines the quality and sometimes there's no compromising. Know what I mean? It's great to be aboard. =) Actually, I found maxdesign.com.au using the googlealert(.com) service. I *highly* recommend it. - Lorenzo -- _/\/¯¯\/\_. (w) www.quirk.co.za (e) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (h) +27 (0)86 11 021 33 (t) +27 (0)21 462 7353 (f) +27 (0)21 462 7354 Quirk Business Solutions CC. Internet E-mail Confidentiality and Legal Notice. This message may contain privileged or confidential information. If you are not the addressee(s) indicated in this message or responsible for delivery of the message to such person(s), you may not copy or deliver this message to any other person(s). Kindly destroy this message and notify the sender by reply email should this be the case. Please advise Quirk Business Solutions CC. immediately should you or your employer not consent to Internet email messages of this nature. Quirk Business Solutions CC. does not endorse any opinions, conclusions, or other information in this message that does not relate to the official business of Quirk Business Solutions CC. Such messages shall be understood as not being issued by Quirk Business Solutions CC. All reasonable steps have been taken to ensure that this e-mail message is free from any virus or other malicious code. Quirk Business Solutions CC. shall not be held responsible for any loss or damage howsoever caused as a result of the recipient being infected with any virus or other malicious code. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG] Before I start
Hi, Before I start out on a project I would like to know if it's possible to float a mainwrapper vertical? If so... what about browser support (Version 5+ browsers) Thank you and have a nice weekend Kim * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] css bug sites css critique
Andy is correct. Browsers all have their own default margin or padding that must be removed if you want your content butting hard against the browser window edges. B aware that different browsers use different methods. More here: http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/body/ Russ Any ideas why? Im puzzled because the CSS XHTML 1.0 transitional code validates and all widths are set to 100% with no margins or padding on the top, left, right of any of the page layout DIV's If you set the margin on the body to zero everything goes the way you want it to go, I think. All the spacings at the top, right, bottom, and left of your page goes away. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
[WSG] A few questions needing answers
Hello fellow pit miners! I have a couple of questions that have plagued me lately - feel free to ignore these if they are too OT, but if not, perhaps someone can shine a lamp into the dark corners of my ignorance ... so to speak ... Forms on Websites Is there a good place that explains/makes available the coding involved for putting simple forms on sites? My programming knowledge doesn't go beyond css, xhtml and using JavaScript nuggets, but I've always wanted to be able to put contact forms on my sites. Relative vs Absolute Links I came across a server host the other day who insists on having all links in my site as absolute. Not only do I have to change all my links, but I can't check changes to my site without uploading it first. Why would he insist on such a thing? Do I have to go along with it or should he change *his* system? HTML vs PHP I notice a lot of sites I admire are using .php pages instead of .html. What are the advantages of this system, is learning basic php a nightmare and should I even contemplate it? I often download css ssites I admire to my computer to study and changing the .php suffixes to .html seems to not affect the working of the site at all. Thanks for any enlightenment! Cheers Peter PS I'm going to be sneaky and throw in this, but only cause it might be very useful to any Sydney designers - my colleagues and I have studio space for up to 3 people available. It's the best studio in town - check it out at http://www.universalhead.com/studio x-tad-bigger /x-tad-biggerUniversal Head Design That Works. 7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore NSW 2048 Australia T (+612) 9517 1466 F (+612) 9565 4747 E [EMAIL PROTECTED] W www.universalhead.com
[WSG] Bobby question
Hi All Just a quick question regarding the Bobby accessibility site. I am currently working on a site to convert to standards/validation specs. However, 99% of the site is user/password protected. I get round W3C validating the protected pages with Firefox's Web Developer extension (Validate Local HTML option). However, how can I do the same with the Bobby site? I noticed they have a CD for purchase, would this allow me to do such a thing? Kind regards Martin Chapman -- Web development, identity and design. co-ord.com Limited 9 Tynwald Road West Kirby Merseyside CH48 4DA Tel: +44 (0)151 625 1443 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.co-ord.com -- * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Before I start
Kim
In what way do you want to float it vertically? If you want to sit a box
in the vertical middle of another box, set its top and bottom margin to
be the same:
--
top margin
box
---
bottom margin
-
margin : 30px 0px;
vertical-align : middle; can be applied to table-cell and inline
elements (the CSS2 rec explains it). In tables you can then apply
td
{
vertical-align : middle;
}
instead of using html presentation of td valign=middle
I think, though, you are talking about floating a box so the text wraps
around it above and below. If you do search for the David Hasselhoff
experiment/competition run a while back - your answer may be there. I
believe The Daemonite (Ben) Bishop had a solution to Hasselhoff quandary.
:D
Cheers
James
Kim Kruse wrote:
Hi,
Before I start out on a project I would like to know if it's possible to
float a mainwrapper vertical?
If so... what about browser support (Version 5+ browsers)
Thank you and have a nice weekend
Kim
*
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*
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*
Re: [WSG] Email Standards?
Carl You should be able to do a blah://blah.blah.tld in the text and the client *should* be smart enough to pick up that this is hyperlink and display it as hot. The Mozilla clients and Eudora do this. Additionally adding mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *should* be rendered by the browser as a mail link. I've been investigating attaching PDF's as the rich text copy of the email after seeing the way some clients mung the HTML in an HTML email. PDF, of course, has accessibilty issues - although these can be solved somewhat by sending the plain text email as the fully accessible part. PDF has the benefit that it's transportable, a client won't try and rewrite the code and it can be printed out and handed around. Cheers James Carl Reynolds wrote: I understand your saying that you should use text as much as possible when generating e-mails. Is it possible to send links in a text e-mail and have them be hot? That seems to be the main thing I use HTML in an e-mail for. James Ellis wrote: ... Use of plain text is highly recommended. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Email Standards?
Hyperlinking URIs and email addresses in plain text emails is handled by the client (e.g. Outlook) so there is no need. HTML or Rich text email is a real problem. If you get a digest version of most lists you get the raw code in the digest version as it is mixed format and text takes precedence (my opinion based on observation). Our list [wsg] tries to get around this by attaching each message as an attachment when in digest mode. This is not ideal either. As most email is read on a client it works ok, it's just when you have to do anything else with it (like we do archiving it in a number of formats) that it becomes a problem. You must supply it in a multipart format with both rich and plain text versions. Just sending HTML is not good as you really don't know how it will be received by both servers (which may include a webmail interface) and clients. This is also a good time for me to request that people who default to HTML email try and remember to change to plain text when sending to this list. Also never ask for a receipt (I get a lot of the receipts that are sent back) and please don't put vacation messages on every weekend. We know you're away 'til Monday and really don't care. I hope that one day both vacation messages and the extremely rude read receipts will be dropped from email specs. P -Original Message- From: Carl Reynolds [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 5:10 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Email Standards? I understand your saying that you should use text as much as possible when generating e-mails. Is it possible to send links in a text e-mail and have them be hot? That seems to be the main thing I use HTML in an e-mail for. James Ellis wrote: ... Use of plain text is highly recommended. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] A few questions needing answers
Hello Peter Here's my thoughts: Universal Head wrote: Forms on Websites Is there a good place that explains/makes available the coding involved for putting simple forms on sites? My programming knowledge doesn't go beyond css, xhtml and using JavaScript nuggets, but I've always wanted to be able to put contact forms on my sites. The HTML4 rec is the first place to start looking - it has some great stuff on fieldsets, labels and legends - the oft-forgettong good bits in forms that let you do some really good stuff and move away from using tables to align elements. The basics are, when you submit a form to a server side script the variables available there mirror the names you give the input name=car tags in your markup. PHP stores everything in $_POST, $_GET and $_REQUEST. eg. $_POST['car']. Relative vs Absolute Links I came across a server host the other day who insists on having all links in my site as absolute. Not only do I have to change all my links, but I can't check changes to my site without uploading it first. Why would he insist on such a thing? Do I have to go along with it or should he change *his* system? I'd suggest you change hosts. Relative links are the only way to make a site portable. If you want to mirror a production site using Apache for instance, add a virtual host to the httpd.conf file - say peter.localhost then add this to your hosts file in your OS. If this freaks you out then send me an email offlist and I'll help you out with setting up a local Apache server for personal use (very easy). It's a great (free) way to mirror production sites on your own PC. HTML vs PHP I notice a lot of sites I admire are using .php pages instead of .html. What are the advantages of this system, is learning basic php a nightmare and should I even contemplate it? I often download css sites I admire to my computer to study and changing the .php suffixes to .html seems to not affect the working of the site at all. PHP is a server side scripting language (like CF, Perl, Ruby, Python etc) that is interpreted by a module sitting on a web server. It can perform purely server based scripting AND it can output HTML to the browser (but leave the static HTML to the web server :D). HTML is sent by the web server to the client box (like CSS and JS) and interpreted by the varying array of browsers and other user agents. The two are different things. The file extensions you note are simply there to tell the webserver how to handle the file. *.php is generally handled by a PHP interpreter with any results outputted by the script sent back to the webserver then to the client, *.htm is sent to the client (user). Once you get a .php file on your client it will be html (or possibly plain text... or PDF... or Flash) - you won't see any of the PHP script. PHP stuff is available at php.net Hope this helps. James Thanks for any enlightenment! Cheers Peter PS I'm going to be sneaky and throw in this, but only cause it might be very useful to any Sydney designers - my colleagues and I have studio space for up to 3 people available. It's the best studio in town - check it out at http://www.universalhead.com/studio Universal Head Design That Works. 7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore NSW 2048 Australia T(+612) 9517 1466 F(+612) 9565 4747 E[EMAIL PROTECTED] Wwww.universalhead.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] Email Standards?
Hyperlinking URIs and email addresses in plain text emails is handled by the client (e.g. Outlook) so there is no need. Let me add to that. With a URI , starting with http:// or www. should kick in a link. For a site like webstandardsgroup.org (which doesn't ever use www.) you would need to use http://webstandardsgroup.org/ As James said appending mailto: will help email addresses as well though any string containing a @ and a . should be linked. P * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] A few questions needing answers
And I'll add a bit: Forms on Websites Is there a good place that explains/makes available the coding involved for putting simple forms on sites? My programming knowledge doesn't go beyond css, xhtml and using JavaScript nuggets, but I've always wanted to be able to put contact forms on my sites. I think your question was more on how to process them. While you can do it using JavaScript, it is NOT recommended. I'll go further, just don't do it. Processing forms should be done on the server using whatever server side application server or scripting language you have at your disposal. ColdFusion makes it really easy. I assume PHP is easy as well. In the absence of those you'll probably find that you have access to a server wide Perl script (like formmail.pl) or something in ASP or .NET. At worst maybe a Frontpage widget (yukko). Ask your ISP what is available (or look in the help files on the ISP website) as they'll generally have this common question answered. With formmail.pl you don't need much knowledge, you just add info in hidden form fields in your form, but the email sent is butt-ugly! See http://www.scriptarchive.com/formmail.html Relative vs Absolute Links I agree with James first answer. Change hosts! I can see absolutely no reason for this apart from an idiot ISP. Speaking of idiot ISPs... Was it TPG (http://www.tpg.com.au/help_desk/activate.html - This form is best viewed with IE 3.04 or Netscape 3.03 and above.)? HTML vs PHP Nothing to add here. P * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Open critique?
Hi Nate, Welcome to the list. Open critiques on this list are great - as long as feedback is helpful rather than abrasive. :) Criticism or praise? How about some praise: I have only looked at the front page but I think it's an excellent example of a web standards based portal. The main page has a lot of content but it is all easy to access and digest. The layout is nice and fresh. The site is valid (xhtml and css) and makes excellent use of semantic code - nested lists for main nav. Even the additional content for non-css browsers is cool - the hidden hr /'s to help break up the content and skip menus for text-based browsers and screen readers. It looks good in Lynx as well as most of the standards compliant browsers: http://www.delorie.com/web/lynxview.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aiga-atl.org http://www.browsercam.com/public.aspx?proj_id=49464 Minor, nit-picky criticisms: Print CSS has some bugs in Mac/IE5. Bumping up the default font size more than two sizes causes the page to start breaking badly. These are minor issues. I reckon it's an excellent site! Have you submitted it to CSS Vault? 2 cents Russ Hi all -- I'm new here, and curious if opening up a site to critique is inside the purview of this list. Having recently launched the AIGA Atlanta site, trying to rely completely on standards and semantic markup, I'm still working on figuring out all the best practices and what kind of trade-offs can/should be made... If anyone's interested, I'd be happy to hear criticism (or praise, of course) on the site (www.aiga-atl.org) and/or ideas for how to take the semantic-ness further, etc. And I'd be happy to answer any questions about the production that come up... Thanks so much! nate .: Nate Cook : 773 405 4073 : [EMAIL PROTECTED] : www.natecook.com :. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] A few questions needing answers
Peter Firminger spoke the following on 6/03/2004 12:26 PM EST: Relative vs Absolute Links I agree with James first answer. Change hosts! I can see absolutely no reason for this apart from an idiot ISP. Speaking of idiot ISPs... Was it TPG (http://www.tpg.com.au/help_desk/activate.html - This form is best viewed with IE 3.04 or Netscape 3.03 and above.)? Relative and absolute links have no difference on the server. The client/browser/user-agent are the ones who have to figure out the difference. The fact that your host doesn't understand this is a pretty good reason to change hosting providers. Did he give you reasons for requesting you use absolute links? -- tim www.toolmantim.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
RE: [WSG] A few questions needing answers
I run a small hosting company, and for the life of me I cant see what difference it makes to them whether you have absolute or relative links. They provide the disk space and bandwidth and you fill it with your own files. What does it matter to them how you arrange your links? I don't think they know what theyre doing. Id look elsewhere. And on our system, you have perl, asp, aspx, coldfusion, php, front page extensions all enabled so you can have your choice of server-side scripting technologies. Use your favourite or learn how to use another one as well. Any worthwhile hosting company would offer a choice of server side scripts. No one builds web sites without some kind of server side scripting these days - even if only to process forms.. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com From: Universal Head [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, 6 March 2004 11:27 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] A few questions needing answers [snip] Relative vs Absolute Links I came across a server host the other day who insists on having all links in my site as absolute. Not only do I have to change all my links, but I can't check changes to my site without uploading it first. Why would he insist on such a thing? Do I have to go along with it or should he change *his* system? [/snip]
Re: [WSG] Open critique?
Some interesting comments already: http://www.webstandardsawards.com/previous/aiga_atlanta.html#comments The first comment is simply opinion on the design, but the second comment mentions some good accessibility issues that should be considered. Russ Forget CSS Vault, I already awarded it on Web Standards Awards! :-] http://www.webstandardsawards.com/ -- Cameron W: www.themaninblue.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] Bobby question
On Saturday, March 6, 2004, at 11:28 AM, Martin Chapman wrote: Just a quick question regarding the Bobby accessibility site. I am currently working on a site to convert to standards/validation specs. However, 99% of the site is user/password protected. I get round W3C validating the protected pages with Firefox's Web Developer extension (Validate Local HTML option). However, how can I do the same with the Bobby site? I noticed they have a CD for purchase, would this allow me to do such a thing? Depending on how many different pages/templates you need to validate with Bobby, this may prove to be enough: 1. login, and visit one of the pages 2. View Source on that page 3. Select All, Copy, and Paste into a new file 4. Save the file as plain HTML 5. Upload this file to a public web space somewhere 6. test accessibility with Bobby on that URL Alternatively, copy/mirror the site to another server/directory, remove the password restrictions, and validate that way. Alternatively, *temporarily* change the way the site responds to logins, so that you're using GET vars instead of POST, then supply bobby with a URL that includes a temporary user:pass combo, so that you can check the validity that way. Really though, just pay attention to the way Bobby reacts to other pages on the site, and make sure those problems are fixed on the protected pages as well. Same goes for WAG -- you can always manually check the pages for validity. After a while, building accessible pages becomes an automatic part of what you do. --- Justin French http://indent.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
