[WSG] Something new... LINE_HEIGHT
Hi all :o) Can't find any reference to this little pecularity on the web... OK. So I learned that it's better to use numbers rather than em's or % as numbers are inherited. BUT! Whenever i have my line-height set to 1.4 (or 140% or 1.4em for that matter), all the underlines of my links get squished to the text-bottom by 1 pixel. I know this sounds ridiculously finnicky but it can make them more difficult to read. OK - a concession: this ONLY seams to happen in IE5. Unfortunately, that what my client's are running and will be viewing my nice little Intranet on. You can check out examples here: http://www.vfme.com/images/firefox.gif http://www.vfme.com/images/ie50.gif Has anyone else heard of this microscopicly small little quirk? Cheers :o) Richard
Re: [WSG] Something new... LINE_HEIGHT
Richard Czeiger wrote: Can't find any reference to this little pecularity on the web... OK. So I learned that it's better to use numbers rather than em's or % as numbers are inherited. BUT! Whenever i have my line-height set to 1.4 (or 140% or 1.4em for that matter), all the underlines of my links get squished to the text-bottom by 1 pixel. I know this sounds ridiculously finnicky but it can make them more difficult to read. OK - a concession: this ONLY seams to happen in IE5. Unfortunately, that what my client's are running and will be viewing my nice little Intranet on. Then you need to sell them on the urgent need to replace IE5, which is a security hazard that should be deemed unacceptable: http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/713878 You can check out examples here: http://www.vfme.com/images/firefox.gif http://www.vfme.com/images/ie50.gif Has anyone else heard of this microscopicly small little quirk? Can't be sure, because you provide no URL, but it appears you're pointing out mousetype links. Switch to a readable size and the problem is likely to become inconsequential. -- Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof... U.S. Constitution, Amendment 1 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] right column help
Is there a reason why you can't do both column faux with the page background? Surely the grey background on the right will be obscured by the top header image and the h1 (with an #fff background) if you put it in the page background. Considering you have a fixed width layout I'd certainly suggest doing both column backgrounds using the background image for the page. You're going to run into countless difficulties with the current method as you add content to pages. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Lindsey (blueyonder) Sent: Wednesday, 3 November 2004 11:51 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] right column help Hi I'm just starting to do all my layouts in pure css and struggling a little bit! I've done this layout, the left column is a b/g image in the body tag which is fine but the right one is a b/g image in a container div, which contains the middle content and the right column. The image doesn't seem to be repeating all the way down and how do I get the container div to go full length of the screen? I've set it to 100%. http://www.apperleydesign.co.uk/harbourcraft/index.htm Style sheet: http://www.apperleydesign.co.uk/harbourcraft/style.css Thanks Lindsey Hill Apperley Design design | create | innovate T: 01274 421410 www.apperleydesign.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.786 / Virus Database: 532 - Release Date: 29/10/2004 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Mail with xhtml/css layout
Hi All I need to make a mail with xhtml/css. It´s possible ? Are there tools to make this ? Any idea welcome... Thanks Javier __ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Mail with xhtml/css layout
You can style emails with css. Because of what many email clients (web based and otherwise) do to the code you have to do all the css inline. There was an article over at alistapart.com a while ago http://www.alistapart.com/articles/cssemail/ A couple of additional points 1. Hotmail will change url to nourl so you can't have background images for your css 2. Gmail basically destroys anything you throw at it as far as I can tell. I'd advise against sending anything but plain text but if it's what a client wants then... yes, it is possible. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Javier Sent: Thursday, 4 November 2004 4:08 AM To: Web Standards Group Subject: [WSG] Mail with xhtml/css layout Hi All I need to make a mail with xhtml/css. It4s possible ? Are there tools to make this ? Any idea welcome... Thanks Javier __ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.786 / Virus Database: 532 - Release Date: 29/10/2004 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Mail with xhtml/css layout
Javier wrote: Hi All I need to make a mail with xhtml/css. It´s possible ? Are there tools to make this ? Any idea welcome... Try this tutorial: http://alistapart.com/articles/cssemail/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] alt tag boundaries
Hi Gang I don't know if this is off topic, I thought I'd risk the post anyways. I work for a commercial company and they naturally want the best search results and all that go with it. I have convinced them to not spam the alt tags, that we need to keep them proper for accessibility. In fact, our site almost gets a AAA rating on WAI and I've done as much as I can to keep to the spirit of the standards. However, I have a question for those of you interested in accessibility. I currently have an image with an alt (attribute) tag of photo of a laptop with coffee and rose petals Now, I know this is not the greatest description. It was sort of a dig at the requirement to use the silly image. However, it's time to fix it and I'm thinking of replacing it with this: Purchase insurance online with the convenience of a laptop as seen in this image Do you think this is pushing the boundaries of the alt attribute? I think it is short and does describe the image with more interesting copy than the original. What do you think? Ted Drake www.csatravelprotection.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] alt tag boundaries
Ted Drake wrote: Now, I know this is not the greatest description. It was sort of a dig at the requirement to use the silly image. I'm sure users that rely on alt attributes will be thrilled by your humour. Seriously though: nice to have a dig, but not at the expense of users. Granted, in this case it's not bad, but it's the principle that I object to... Anyway...if the image is purely decorative (which, by the sound of it, is the case), why not simply put a null alt attribute of alt= in there, or even better use CSS to place the image as a background? Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] alt tag boundaries
Something else that came to mind as well. Imagine if the alt text were a pull-quote in a magazine article. Would it hold up? Does the alt text add something to the current page's content? Ryan Nichols Graphic Design / Web Development Matrixwebs.com 1.800.711.2829 18330 Sutter Blvd. Morgan Hill, CA 95037 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ted Drake Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 1:52 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] alt tag boundaries Hi Gang I don't know if this is off topic, I thought I'd risk the post anyways. I work for a commercial company and they naturally want the best search results and all that go with it. I have convinced them to not spam the alt tags, that we need to keep them proper for accessibility. In fact, our site almost gets a AAA rating on WAI and I've done as much as I can to keep to the spirit of the standards. However, I have a question for those of you interested in accessibility. I currently have an image with an alt (attribute) tag of photo of a laptop with coffee and rose petals Now, I know this is not the greatest description. It was sort of a dig at the requirement to use the silly image. However, it's time to fix it and I'm thinking of replacing it with this: Purchase insurance online with the convenience of a laptop as seen in this image Do you think this is pushing the boundaries of the alt attribute? I think it is short and does describe the image with more interesting copy than the original. What do you think? Ted Drake www.csatravelprotection.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] links with same names
One problem I come across regularly is the issue of not giving multiple links the same names. Let's say I have got a list of dynamically created news items, each one of them having a summary and a link to read more. Obviously this is inaccessible: 10 links all saying read more is not terribly helpful to anybody. But I would love to know how people solve this problem? Personally, I sometimes make the title of the news item the actual link, but I feel this is not user-friendly enough. Another option is to make the read me link unique by including the title of the news item in it (e.g. Read more about the new Benchmarking for Educational Effectiveness Program). The length of this link shows for itself that it is not the best solution either. Has anybody come up with better ways of solving this problem? Andreas Boehmer User Experience Consultant Phone: (03) 9417 0468 Mobile: (0411) 097 038 http://www.addictiveMedia.com.au Consulting | Accessibility | Usability | Development ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] links with same names
Personally, coming up with links that don't end in click here at the end of an article or section is something I find really difficult... The whole Find out more about ... at the bottom of each page looks too predictable. :o( Richard - Original Message - From: Andreas Boehmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 9:44 AM Subject: [WSG] links with same names One problem I come across regularly is the issue of not giving multiple links the same names. Let's say I have got a list of dynamically created news items, each one of them having a summary and a link to read more. Obviously this is inaccessible: 10 links all saying read more is not terribly helpful to anybody. But I would love to know how people solve this problem? Personally, I sometimes make the title of the news item the actual link, but I feel this is not user-friendly enough. Another option is to make the read me link unique by including the title of the news item in it (e.g. Read more about the new Benchmarking for Educational Effectiveness Program). The length of this link shows for itself that it is not the best solution either. Has anybody come up with better ways of solving this problem? Andreas Boehmer User Experience Consultant Phone: (03) 9417 0468 Mobile: (0411) 097 038 http://www.addictiveMedia.com.au Consulting | Accessibility | Usability | Development ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] links with same names
you can make use of the title attribute to make the links unique, while still visually having them appear short and similar. a href=whatever.html title=read article: [TITLE OF ARTICLE]read article/a best practice with regards to titles suggests that the link text should be repeated in the title itself. also be aware that in the case of screenreaders the output users will hear depends on the verbosity settings they have enabled. Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] links with same names
Predictable is a good thing. Expectations met! Usability has a lot to do with predictability. The 'kiss' principle is always a good place to start. The whole Find out more about ... at the bottom of each page looks too predictable. You can adjust the words to suit the site e.g.: Find out more about title More about title Read title More on title Full text: title Depends on how your titles are written and how you are accessing them (hand coding or dynamic content output). If it's a custom built CMS you could even add a data field specifically for this link (a short title maybe). If it's hand coded then you can write a friendly link each time. P ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] links with same names
Andreas Boehmer wrote: So the ability to have the titles of links read out by screenreaders can be influenced by a setting? Relying on that setting is dangerous, don't you think? Of course it is. The best option by far, in my opinion, is having the news item title as the actual link, but you were looking for alternatives. It would also be conceivable to use a small image that signifies the read entire article concept, and expanding it fully in the alt attribute alt=read this article: [TITLE OF ARTICLE] - or using CSS image replacement for this purpose. If the users have the reading of title attributes turned off, they won't hear any difference between the links. In fact, no users of screenreaders I have met so far could hear the title attributes. Just to throw in a devil's advocate type comment: the onus is also on the user to know how to use their AT, and how to configure it properly (although I'd say the screenreader developers are to blame for mostly having this option OFF by default...I'm looking at you, FreedomScientifc) Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] links with same names
So the ability to have the titles of links read out by screenreaders can be influenced by a setting? Relying on that setting is dangerous, don't you think? If the users have the reading of title attributes turned off, they won't hear any difference between the links. In fact, no users of screenreaders I have met so far could hear the title attributes. Good point Andreas, that is why i think that title attributes should be used with caution, if the text is important don't put it in the title attribute. plain text is best. Also remember that title attributes are device dependent, keyboard users cannot access them. A reasonable way around the issue is what they do on the age/sydney morning herald They have the heading as a link and and also a more link (both point to the full text of the article) Example: Police arrest possible sex attacker [11:30am] A Sydney rail commuter believes he saw someone resembling the identikit picture of a serial sex attacker. more it would be better if the more link had a title attribute, but the main point is that screen reader users have at least one clearly stated link to the article. In reference to to title content: I think it is better to have repeated words such as more or full text at the end of the title text rather than the beginning Examples: america has spoken - full text police arrest sex attacker -full text As when read out of context the important and defining information is frontloaded and allows easier identification of a particular link with a list of links. with regards Steven Faulkner Web Accessibility Consultant National Information Library Service (NILS) 454 Glenferrie Road Kooyong Victoria 3144 Phone: (613) 9864 9281 Fax: (613) 9864 9210 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] National Information Library Service A subsidiary of RBS.RVIB.VAF Ltd. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Problems with hopping menu list in IE
It's not hopping for me - have you fixed it already? Cheers Jason On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:23:41 +0100, Dietmar Albers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi @llz, Please have a look at http://www.albruco.com/A4F/. On mouse over and on click the top menu is hopping up and down. This appaers in IE(6) only. Any ideas? CSS is at http://www.albruco.com/A4F/style/main.css. HTML and CSS is validated. Cheers and thanks Dietmar. -- Jason Foss Almost Anything Desktop Publishing www.almost-anything.com.au Windows Messenger: [EMAIL PROTECTED] North Rockhampton, Queensland, Australia We can do almost anything! ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Access key in IE6
On 11/3/04 9:59 PM The Man With His Guide Dog At The Tent Store [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: PA accesskey=0 HREF=#Table alt=Click here to return table of Contents (Accesskey ALT + 0)click here to return to table of Contents or press ALT + 0/A/P Why does this access key work fine in Firefox 1.0 and not in IE6? HTML: http://www.asic.bc.cx/ASICAboutUs.php It doesn't appear to work in FF Mac or Safari either. Rick Faaberg ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Access key in IE6
On 11/3/04 10:06 PM Rick Faaberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: On 11/3/04 9:59 PM The Man With His Guide Dog At The Tent Store [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: PA accesskey=0 HREF=#Table alt=Click here to return table of Contents (Accesskey ALT + 0)click here to return to table of Contents or press ALT + 0/A/P Why does this access key work fine in Firefox 1.0 and not in IE6? HTML: http://www.asic.bc.cx/ASICAboutUs.php It doesn't appear to work in FF Mac or Safari either. Spoke a little too soon - pressing ctrl-0 on FF Mac and Safari works fine. Works on IE 5.x Mac as well. You might say ctrl-0 etc for Mac users. No idea about IE Win. Rick Faaberg ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Access key in IE6
G'day PA accesskey=0 HREF=#Table alt=Click here to return table of Contents (Accesskey ALT + 0)click here to return to table of Contents or press ALT + 0/A/P Why does this access key work fine in Firefox 1.0 and not in IE6? HTML: http://www.asic.bc.cx/ASICAboutUs.php Try validating the HTML first. There's no character encoding, you are using a html doctype but it has xhtml code, you have headings inside anchors, alt attributes on a link rather than an image, etc. Not saying this will fix your problem, but until the code is valid HTML, it's anyone's guess what a browser will do. Regards -- Bert Doorn, Web Developer www.betterwebdesign.com.au Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Access key in IE6
It works in Firefox on Win just fine. But this broken code will be causing you problems: Ph3 id=MissPA accesskey=0 HREF=#About alt=Click here to return to top of the page (Accesskey ALT + 0)H3 try validating and fixing basic errors first. On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 22:06:14 -0800, Rick Faaberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 11/3/04 9:59 PM The Man With His Guide Dog At The Tent Store [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: PA accesskey=0 HREF=#Table alt=Click here to return table of Contents (Accesskey ALT + 0)click here to return to table of Contents or press ALT + 0/A/P Why does this access key work fine in Firefox 1.0 and not in IE6? HTML: http://www.asic.bc.cx/ASICAboutUs.php It doesn't appear to work in FF Mac or Safari either. Rick Faaberg ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Website Designer/Developer www.nataliebuxton.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Access key in IE6
TMWHGDATTS, Is it just a matter of pressing enter after the accesskey? I found this is necessary on IE, but not FF. John. The Man With His Guide Dog At The Tent Store To [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] cacc Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject group.org [WSG] Access key in IE6 04/11/2004 04:59 PM Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] roup.org At the top of my document i have: A NAME=AboutH2About Us/H2/A and in my file; I have: PA accesskey=0 HREF=#Table alt=Click here to return table of Contents (Accesskey ALT + 0)click here to return to table of Contents or press ALT + 0/A/P Why does this access key work fine in Firefox 1.0 and not in IE6? HTML: http://www.asic.bc.cx/ASICAboutUs.php Angus MacKinnon MacKinnon Crest Saying Latin - Audentes Fortuna Juvat English - Fortune Assists The Daring Web page: http://members.shaw.ca/dabneyadfm Choroideremia Research Foundation Inc. http://www.choroideremia.org ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** = CAUTION: This message may contain both confidential and privileged information intended only for the addressee named above. If you are not the intended recipient any dissemination, distribution or reproduction of this message is prohibited. If you have received this message in error please notify the sender immediately, then destroy the original message. Any views expressed in this message are solely those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Peregrine Semiconductor Australia. All care has been taken to screen this message and attachments for computer viruses, however, we accept no responsibility for viruses it may contain. Peregrine Semiconductor Australia Pty Ltd 8 Herb Elliott Ave., Homebush Bay 2127. NSW Australia. Ph. +612 9763 4111 Fax. +612 9746 1501 = ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Page Check
Comments and suggestions on this page welcome. http://www.dlaakso.com/ Thanks. David David Laakso ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Page Check
On 11/3/04 10:36 PM David Laakso [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: Comments and suggestions on this page welcome. http://www.dlaakso.com/ Thanks. There appear to be some accessibility warnings on WAI and 508. Cool site! Rick Faaberg ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Page Check
Rick Faaberg wrote: On 11/3/04 10:36 PM David Laakso [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: Comments and suggestions on this page welcome. http://www.dlaakso.com/ Thanks. There appear to be some accessibility warnings on WAI and 508. Cool site! Rick Faaberg I will address the accessibility warnings. David . ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] links with same names
you could also use a text image such as gif or jpg with an alt like: alt = Link :: LINK NAME HERE -- Brian Ussery beta testing: [EMAIL PROTECTED] b e ussery imagery co. athens - atlanta - asheville http://www.beussery.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] 706.296.3446 905.935.4396f ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Page Check
David Laakso wrote: Rick Faaberg wrote: On 11/3/04 10:36 PM David Laakso [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: Comments and suggestions on this page welcome. http://www.dlaakso.com/ Thanks. There appear to be some accessibility warnings on WAI and 508. Cool site! Rick Faaberg I will address the accessibility warnings. David I neglected to mention that long descriptions are set on the iframes, and can be read on a text-mode browser: http://www.delorie.com/web/lynxview.html For the time being, there is no alt text on the thumbnails. It was removed because the thumbnails are so close together, that the alt text created a garbled mess when viewed in a browser with the images turned off. David ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
