Re: [WSG] Careers in web standards

2004-11-25 Thread Henry Tapia
Forgive me if I am mistaken, but isn't Accessibility one of the cornerstones 
of the whole concept of Web Standards?

Thus, you can have Accessibility, and be an Accessibility specialist, 
without Standards (as unlikely as that might be), but you cannot profess 
Standards expertise without having good knowledge of Accessibility. 
Accessibility is one major component of the holistic philosophy that is Web 
Standards.

I shall now sit under the bodhi tree and ponder if there really is a 
universe outside Standards.


- Original Message - 
From: Mordechai Peller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 6:10 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Careers in web standards


Natalie Buxton wrote:

While Web Standards and Accessibility are often practiced together,
they are not entirely the same speciallty.


While that's technically true, it's not a coincidence that those
interested in Standards are also interested in accessibility: the two
complements each other very naturally.

Having a good understanding of both is excellent, but I think
Accessibillity will get picked up faster, due to the fines you
mention.


To promote accessibility without Standards is almost foolhardy. Though
I'm sure there are exceptions, they would be exceptions which prove the
rule.

Of course, working within Web Standards greatly enhances accessibility 
options.

Hence the marriage. If anything, accessibility needs Standards more than
Standards needs accessibility. Also, improved accessibility is one of
the selling points of Standards. 

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Re: [WSG] Careers in web standards

2004-11-25 Thread Vicki Berry
My previous employer has advertised for someone to fill my old job and
apparently it's not looking hopeful.  They want someone who can hit
the ground running but I think it really is a case of what Kay was
saying - you have to expect to train people.  But the job description
was based around my own role (which was based on my own skills) so
it's a little difficult!  When I applied for my own job(!) only 6
people applied and only 1 other besides myself qualified for an
interview.

Unfortunately there is no one there who could train the new person. 
Being a (Western Australian) State Govt dept they are aware of the
need to work to standards and meet accessibility guidelines, however
there was only my supervisor and myself in our section and I was the
nuts and bolts person.

Now I am operating my own business with the occasional need to
outsource, I'm in the same boat myself.

And yes, I don't believe it is possible to say you are meeting web
standards if you don't meet accessibility guidelines too. 
Accessibility is a sub-set of web standards.  (And the degree to which
you meet them is another story altogether!  I think the point is that
you do the best within your capabilities.  Accessibility is not
something to be learned overnight.)

Vicki.  :-)


On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 19:12:20 +1100, Henry Tapia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Forgive me if I am mistaken, but isn't Accessibility one of the cornerstones
 of the whole concept of Web Standards?
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[WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread Kristof Rutten




Hi 
All,


I don't know 
if you guys experience the same anoying and frustrating talks when it 
comes
to convince 
a prospect/client of the fact his/her site isn't working for most of the 
world.

-- The fact 
that it's not build following certain standards, the fact Google is like a 
blind, numb en deaf
person and 
so on. Finally you have the guy convinced, in comes the next frontpage 
cowboy.

He lowers 
the price, the target, the standards .. and up up and away, there goes another 
client.

How do you 
convince your client to spend a little more onthe design, the coding and 
the usability
when the 
most simple logic doesn't work ? 

Do you have 
the same feeling most people don't care about all of the above and keep running 

around with 
the idea IE will fix all.

Prospects 
site: http://www.s2store.be
Frontpage 
cowboys: http://www.xperienz.be

The prospect 
is complaining about the fact his site doesn't show up in Google and zhy all of 
his competitors
do. 


The Google 
results : 
http://www.google.be/search?q=site:s2store.behl=nllr=start=20sa=N


Remarks, 
ideas - toughts ? 

.K



RE: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread Brett Walsh








Searching for s2store in google returns it
as the first result?













From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kristof Rutten
Sent: Thursday, 25 November 2004
8:26 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] It's so
frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.









Hi All,

















I don't know if you guys experience the same anoying
and frustrating talks when it comes





to convince a prospect/client of the fact his/her
site isn't working for most of the world.











-- The fact that it's not build following certain
standards, the fact Google is like a blind, numb en deaf





person and so on. Finally you have the guy
convinced, in comes the next frontpage cowboy.











He lowers the price, the target, the standards ..
and up up and away, there goes another client.











How do you convince your client to spend a little
more onthe design, the coding and the usability





when the most simple logic doesn't work ? 











Do you have the same feeling most people don't care
about all of the above and keep running 





around with the idea IE will fix all.











Prospects site: http://www.s2store.be





Frontpage cowboys: http://www.xperienz.be











The prospect is complaining about the fact his site
doesn't show up in Google and zhy all of his competitors





do. 











The Google results :
http://www.google.be/search?q=site:s2store.behl=nllr=start=20sa=N

















Remarks, ideas - toughts ? 











.K


















Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread Andy Budd
Kristof Rutten wrote:
How do you convince your client to spend a little more on the design, 
the coding and the usability
 when the most simple logic doesn't work ?
Remember that most clients don't care a jot about accessibility and web 
standards. Sell them on the business benefits. However if the clients 
is more interested in cost than quality, there will always be somebody 
willing to do the job for less. Rather than blame the clients, you 
probably need to rethink the market you're aiming at.

Andy Budd
http://www.message.uk.com/
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RE: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread Kristof Rutten



Yeah, OK. But nothing more. Just the flash items.
Not a single product on his site.

The prospect is a large sound  light reseller. He needs to make a 
living
out of DJ's, Clubs, .. Try to search for one of his specifics on 
google.

Don't you think it's odd that a site with a gazillion products just had 
15 links
on a search engine? And Google is the most active of'm 
all.

.K



From: Brett Walsh 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: donderdag 25 november 2004 
10:40To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [WSG] It's 
so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales 
argument.


Searching for s2store 
in google returns it as the first result?






From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf 
Of Kristof RuttenSent: Thursday, 25 November 2004 8:26 
PMTo: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [WSG] It's so frustrating. 
Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales 
argument.



Hi All,





I don't know if you guys 
experience the same anoying and frustrating talks when it 
comes

to convince a 
prospect/client of the fact his/her site isn't working for most of the 
world.



-- The fact that it's not 
build following certain standards, the fact Google is like a blind, numb en 
deaf

person and so on. Finally 
you have the guy convinced, in comes the next frontpage 
cowboy.



He lowers the price, the 
target, the standards .. and up up and away, there goes another 
client.



How do you convince your 
client to spend a little more onthe design, the coding and the 
usability

when the most simple logic 
doesn't work ? 



Do you have the same 
feeling most people don't care about all of the above and keep running 


around with the idea IE 
will fix all.



Prospects site: http://www.s2store.be

Frontpage cowboys: http://www.xperienz.be



The prospect is complaining 
about the fact his site doesn't show up in Google and zhy all of his 
competitors

do. 




The Google results 
: http://www.google.be/search?q=site:s2store.behl=nllr=start=20sa=N





Remarks, ideas - toughts ? 




.K




Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread john
As I'm just now starting to use web standards in my business, and 
haven't had to yet make the sales pitch, these are just some random 
thoughts.

Why would we have to sell the idea of web standards?  Why not just use 
them?  Sell your services like usual, and use all the tools you know to 
create a fast-loading, accessible and usable site.  Your client will be 
happy with the results, and word will spread.  They won't know WHY your 
sites load quicker, get more visitors, and rank higher in search engines 
than your competitors, but you can be sure they'll be happy for it and 
tell everybody they know.

I don't see that anybody has to sell web standards.  They are 
self-selling, even if the buyer doesn't understand it.

~john
_
Dr. Zeus Web Development
http://www.DrZeus.net
content without clutter
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Re: [WSG] Sometimes you just cant help people ...

2004-11-25 Thread Andy Budd
Screenreaders have loads of useful features built in like the ability 
to bring up a list of all the headings on a page and then jump to that 
heading. However the vast majority of screenreader users don't use 
these advanced features.

The same goes with websites. Just because you add things in like skip 
nav and access keys, you shouldn't automatically assume that everybody 
will use them, or even know what they mean.

I don't necessarily think it's a naming issue, although as a number of 
people have pointed out, JAWS pronounces content differently depending 
on context. I think it's just that, while in the web accessibility 
community skip nav is a recognised convention, it hasn't seeped into 
the screenreader community at large yet.

It's a bit like adding a home link to the logo of a site. Most web 
designers do this by default, but even now, there are loads of web 
users who are unaware of this convention. If a more experienced web 
user was to show then this convention they would no doubt start using 
it. However generally web users stick to their own patters until there 
is a compelling need to deviate from them.

Maybe we should start putting a para about skip nav links in our 
accessibility statements along with a description of our accesskeys, 
compliance goals etc.

Andy Budd
http://www.message.uk.com/
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RE: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread Kristof Rutten
I totally agree. But then it comes to budget.

And your clients ASKS why your offer is quoted higher. Then you have the
explaining to do.
It seems like reason isn't among most of the buyers lately ;) Or is this
just Belgium...

.K


-Original Message-
From: john [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: donderdag 25 november 2004 11:00
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and
Firefox as a sales argument.

As I'm just now starting to use web standards in my business, and haven't
had to yet make the sales pitch, these are just some random thoughts.

Why would we have to sell the idea of web standards?  Why not just use them?
Sell your services like usual, and use all the tools you know to create a
fast-loading, accessible and usable site.  Your client will be happy with
the results, and word will spread.  They won't know WHY your sites load
quicker, get more visitors, and rank higher in search engines than your
competitors, but you can be sure they'll be happy for it and tell everybody
they know.

I don't see that anybody has to sell web standards.  They are self-selling,
even if the buyer doesn't understand it.

~john
_
Dr. Zeus Web Development
http://www.DrZeus.net
content without clutter


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[WSG] Learning to design Accessibility

2004-11-25 Thread Tim Burgan
Hi,
I've done freelance work using standards for a few years, but now due to 
study I'm looking to get some casual web design work in Adelaide.

I know and use standards, and I understand the need for accessibility, 
but I don't know how or what need to be implemented to meet 
accessibility needs.

Is there a resource that's available that is able to fill the gaps in my 
knowledge regarding accessibility?

Thanks for your time.
Tim
--
Tim Burgan.
Website Development  Graphic Design
E [EMAIL PROTECTED]
W www.timburgan.com

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Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread Manuel González Noriega
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 11:06:51 +0100, Kristof Rutten
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I totally agree. But then it comes to budget.
 
 And your clients ASKS why your offer is quoted higher. Then you have the
 explaining to do.

I don't really get why your quote should be higher and don't really
like that thought as it promotes the idea that standards are hard. If
you are proficient with your art, having an average couple of
validation errors per page, because of a typo or an unclosed li
doesn't really slow things down or raise the project's quote much more
than parse errors do when a good programmer is coding PHP or ASP or
whatever.


-- 
Manuel 
a veces :) a veces :( 
pero siempre trabajando duro para Simplelógica: apariencia,
experiencia y comunicación en la web.
http://simplelogica.net # (+34) 985 22 12 65

¡Ah! y escribiendo en Logicola: http://simplelogica.net/logicola/
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Re: [WSG] Mac IE (and Safari, too) testing on a PC and emulator info.

2004-11-25 Thread Dejan Kozina
I have Basilisk installed, but it is of no use for web page testing, as 
PPC applications do not run on it, no matter the OS version: the most 
modern browsers I found in 68k version are IE 4.0, Netscape 4.05 and 
iCab 2.95. Until I find the time to install PearPC, I try to simulate 
Safari testing with Konqueror on Linux (actually a Knoppix live CD), as 
they should have the same KHTML rendering engine. Has anybody compared 
the real Safari with Konqueror ?

Mordechai Peller wrote:
As the only proper way to test to to actually run the software (screen 
shots don't help much with JavaScript), and while any standards based 
code which works properly in Firefox stands a good chance of also 
working in Safari, IE, on the other hand (surprise, surprise) isn't 
quite such a sure thing. Now, while I'm not ready to go out and by a 
Mac, does anyone have any experience with emulators under either WinXP 
or (x86 based) Linux?

I've heard of SoftMac, Basilisk II, and PearPC, but I don't know much 
about them, so maybe someone can fill in the gaps. PearPC can emulate 
a PowerPC and run up to OS X, but at 1/40 of the speed (that figure 
might be out of date). The other two emulate the  68K and can run up 
to OS 8.1, but how fast? Up to OS 7.5.5 is available free from Apple; 
is this enough for IE5? Basilisk II can run under several OS's, 
including WinXP and Linux, but which is faster?
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--
Dejan Kozina Web Design Studio
Dolina 346 (TS)
I-34018 Trst/Trieste - Italy
tel./fax: +39 040 228 436
cell.: +39 348 7355 225
http://www.kozina.com/
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
begin:vcard
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org:Dejan Kozina Web Design Studio
adr:;;Dolina 346;Dolina;TS;I-34018;Italy
email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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tel;fax:+39 040 228 436
tel;home:+39 040 228 436
tel;cell:+39 348 7355 225
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url:http://www.kozina.com/
version:2.1
end:vcard



RE: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread Bert Doorn
It's also frustrating to get emails with microscopic text (accessibility
issue).  Text/plain please?

As far as your dilemma goes - don't lower your standards (pun intended) for
the sake of getting work.  If you can't convince them, let them go.  Maybe
they will come back when the site they get doesn't do what they need it to.

If the lack of traffic from Google is one of their main reasons to redo the
site, tell them (in broad terms) why you think Google doesn't like the site.
Show them examples of sites you have made (the standards way) that do have
good listings in Google.   Maybe that will open their eyes.  If not, move
on.

Oh, and yes, the site does show up if one searches for s2store.  Great if
people actually search for that word, but otherwise about as useful as an
ashtray on a motorcycle.  My site is usually #1 of 15 million+ for my
business name too - brings me 1 visitor a month if I'm lucky.

Regards
-- 
Bert Doorn, Web Developer
Better Web Design
www.betterwebdesign.com.au


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Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread john
I'm not sure I understand why it would cost more to use web standards. 
Even if it did on the design and build, it would surely even out once 
maintenance costs were factored in.

~john
_
Dr. Zeus Web Development
http://www.DrZeus.net
content without clutter

on 11/25/2004 10:06 AM Kristof Rutten said the following:
I totally agree. But then it comes to budget.
And your clients ASKS why your offer is quoted higher. Then you have the
explaining to do.
It seems like reason isn't among most of the buyers lately ;) Or is this
just Belgium...
.K
-Original Message-
From: john [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: donderdag 25 november 2004 11:00
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and
Firefox as a sales argument.

As I'm just now starting to use web standards in my business, and haven't
had to yet make the sales pitch, these are just some random thoughts.
Why would we have to sell the idea of web standards?  Why not just use them?
Sell your services like usual, and use all the tools you know to create a
fast-loading, accessible and usable site.  Your client will be happy with
the results, and word will spread.  They won't know WHY your sites load
quicker, get more visitors, and rank higher in search engines than your
competitors, but you can be sure they'll be happy for it and tell everybody
they know.
I don't see that anybody has to sell web standards.  They are self-selling,
even if the buyer doesn't understand it.
~john
_
Dr. Zeus Web Development
http://www.DrZeus.net
content without clutter
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 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
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Re: [WSG] Learning to design Accessibility

2004-11-25 Thread john
http://www.w3.org/WAI/
~john
_
Dr. Zeus Web Development
http://www.DrZeus.net
content without clutter

on 11/25/2004 10:11 AM Tim Burgan said the following:
Hi,
I've done freelance work using standards for a few years, but now due to 
study I'm looking to get some casual web design work in Adelaide.

I know and use standards, and I understand the need for accessibility, 
but I don't know how or what need to be implemented to meet 
accessibility needs.

Is there a resource that's available that is able to fill the gaps in my 
knowledge regarding accessibility?

Thanks for your time.
Tim
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Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread john
on 11/25/2004 10:18 AM Bert Doorn said the following:
 It's also frustrating to get emails with microscopic text...
heh...I didn't notice that myself, since I have HTML turned off in 
Thunderbird.

~john
_
Dr. Zeus Web Development
http://www.DrZeus.net
content without clutter
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RE: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread Lea de Groot
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 20:40:10 +1100, Brett Walsh wrote:
 Searching for s2store in google returns it as the first result.?

No, the point is that there are no descriptions to entice the searcher 
to click on that link and that of the many, many pages on the site 
(have a look - its a fair sized site) there are only a handful of pages 
on the site.
Either Google has only just found the site or it isnt terribly spider 
friendly; the kiss of death for an e-commerce store!

Lea
-- 
Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet http://elysiansystems.com/
Search Engine Optimisation, Usability, Information Architecture, Web 
Design
Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [WSG] Mac IE (and Safari, too) testing on a PC and emulator info.

2004-11-25 Thread Nick Gleitzman
On 25 Nov 2004, at 5:48 PM, Mordechai Peller wrote:
As the only proper way to test to to actually run the software (screen 
shots don't help much with JavaScript), and while any standards based 
code which works properly in Firefox stands a good chance of also 
working in Safari, IE, on the other hand (surprise, surprise) isn't 
quite such a sure thing. Now, while I'm not ready to go out and by a 
Mac, does anyone have any experience with emulators under either WinXP 
or (x86 based) Linux?
I know (as a long-time user) that Macs have that price-tag reputation, 
but until someone comes up with a workable equivalent to Virtual PC in 
the reverse direction, why wouldn't you buy a 2nd hand iMac for 
$200-$300? That's as much as a half-decent software program's going to 
cost, and you've got a machine that will run all the browsers you want. 
If it comes with any flavour of OS9, upgrades to 9.2.2 are free (well, 
if you discount the cost of a couple of 100MB downloads); OSX is your 
only other expense - and you may well find a machine with that 
pre-installed...

Hmm... moving OT, methinks. Apologies.
N
___
Omnivision. Websight.
http://www.omnivision.com.au/
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RE: [WSG] Learning to design Accessibility

2004-11-25 Thread David McDonald
Try the W3C as a good starting point:

http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/

http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/

http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/full-checklist.html

http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-TECHS/ 



Regards,

David McDonald
Web Designer

http://www.davidmcdonald.org

Southbank, Melbourne
Australia


Subject: [WSG] Learning to design Accessibility


Is there a resource that's available that is able to fill the gaps in
my knowledge regarding accessibility?





Regards,

David McDonald
Web Designer
http://www.davidmcdonald.org

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Re: [WSG] Learning to design Accessibility

2004-11-25 Thread Johannes Reiss
Hi,

== in English e.g.:

http://www.gawds.org/

http://www.washington.edu/doit/Resources/accessweb.html

http://www.cwrl.utexas.edu/currents/spring02/slatin.html

http://www.barrierfree.ca/index.htm




- Original Message - 
From: Tim Burgan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [WSG] Web Standards Group [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 11:11 AM
Subject: [WSG] Learning to design Accessibility


 Hi,
 
 
 I've done freelance work using standards for a few years, but now due to 
 study I'm looking to get some casual web design work in Adelaide.
 
 I know and use standards, and I understand the need for accessibility, 
 but I don't know how or what need to be implemented to meet 
 accessibility needs.
 
 Is there a resource that's available that is able to fill the gaps in my 
 knowledge regarding accessibility?
 
 
 Thanks for your time.
 
 Tim
 
 -- 
 
 Tim Burgan.
 Website Development  Graphic Design
 
 E [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 W www.timburgan.com
 
 
 
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Re: [WSG] Learning to design Accessibility

2004-11-25 Thread Johannes Reiss

and also:

http://www.webaim.org/

and general:
http://aware.hwg.org/sites/

greetings
johannes


- Original Message - 
From: Tim Burgan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [WSG] Web Standards Group [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 11:11 AM
Subject: [WSG] Learning to design Accessibility


 Hi,
 
 
 I've done freelance work using standards for a few years, but now due to 
 study I'm looking to get some casual web design work in Adelaide.
 
 I know and use standards, and I understand the need for accessibility, 
 but I don't know how or what need to be implemented to meet 
 accessibility needs.
 
 Is there a resource that's available that is able to fill the gaps in my 
 knowledge regarding accessibility?
 
 
 Thanks for your time.
 
 Tim
 
 -- 
 
 Tim Burgan.
 Website Development  Graphic Design
 
 E [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 W www.timburgan.com
 
 
 
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RE: [WSG] Learning to design Accessibility

2004-11-25 Thread Patrick Lauke
http://diveintoaccessibility.org/ gives you a good little overview.

Patrick H. Lauke

 -Original Message-
 From: Tim Burgan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 25 November 2004 10:11
 To: [WSG] Web Standards Group
 Subject: [WSG] Learning to design Accessibility
 
 
 Hi,
 
 
 I've done freelance work using standards for a few years, but 
 now due to 
 study I'm looking to get some casual web design work in Adelaide.
 
 I know and use standards, and I understand the need for 
 accessibility, 
 but I don't know how or what need to be implemented to meet 
 accessibility needs.
 
 Is there a resource that's available that is able to fill the 
 gaps in my 
 knowledge regarding accessibility?
 
 
 Thanks for your time.
 
 Tim
 
 -- 
 
 Tim Burgan.
 Website Development  Graphic Design
 
 E [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 W www.timburgan.com
 
 
 
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 **
 
 
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Re: [WSG] Learning to design Accessibility

2004-11-25 Thread Tim Burgan
This is brilliant!
Thanks for the kick-start everyone.
Tim
--
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Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread Andy Budd
john wrote:
I'm not sure I understand why it would cost more to use web standards. 
Even if it did on the design and build, it would surely even out once 
maintenance costs were factored in.
The problem isn't web standards or not web standards, the problem seems 
to be quality vs cost.

If you do quality work it takes longer and so costs more. If you do a 
bodge job it gets done quicker and so costs less.


Andy Budd
http://www.message.uk.com/
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Re: [WSG] User Interface Design Standards Template

2004-11-25 Thread Mark Lynch
Some useful links for general UI Design:

http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/1.0/index.html
http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/macosx/Essentials/AquaHIGuidelines/
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/dnwue/html/welcome.asp

I haven't taken the time (yet) to go through some of these to
understand how useful much of this is for web design and also how
specific they are.

There are also a few more links here:
http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/references.html

Hope that helps,
Mark


On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 23:29:18 -0500, Marilyn Langfeld
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I don't know if this is what you're looking for, but ATT has an online
 style guide here:
 
 http://www.att.com/style/
 
 I haven't thoroughly investigated it, but it was recommended at an
 accessibility showcase I attended recently, as an example of how to
 ensure that standards (accessibility in that case) don't get diluted
 over time. It takes the concept of a corporate identity manual into
 webspace.
 
 Best regards,
 
 Marilyn Langfeld
 http://www.langfeldesigns.com
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 +1.301.598.3300 business phone
 +1.301.598.0532 fax
 +1.202.390.8847 mobile
 
 
 On Nov 24, 2004, at 11:14 PM, Sunena wrote:
 
  Hi,
 
  I have recently joined this group and am looking for a sample UI
  Design Standards document. I need to create a design standard
  document.
 
  Can anyone provide information on this?
 
  Thanks
  Sunena
 
  Do you Yahoo!?
   Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
 


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[WSG] Adobe Forum comment on CSS in visual editors

2004-11-25 Thread Marilyn Langfeld
I was looking through the Adobe GoLive forum and came across this comment, which I thought would be of interest. I'm not trying to provoke a response here, but I think it's important to hear the perspective of an employee at Adobe who often helps people with CSS questions on their forum. And since most beginning web designers (accent on designers) probably try Dreamweaver or GoLive first, when learning web design.

http://tinyurl.com/4jo25
free registration required, so I'm also quoting the post.

Here's the comment, which is a little off topic of the thread, in answer to an earlier comment by Ron which is quoted:



JohnDonaldson  - 4:42pm Nov 22, 04 PST (#18 of 21) 	 	 Edited: 22-Nov-2004 at 04:43pm

Ron,

it is clear to me that the individuals who designed this application were/are not hard core CSS scripters. 


Sorry, but there is a counter-argument here. It is clear to me that the people who designed the CSS standard were entirely unconcerned about how it might ever be handled by visual editors, since none of them actually used visual editors, nor did they even consider that they might be or should be important. The only model which interested them was, prepare markup in a text editor, write CSS rules in a text editor, check result in browser. So, what's so wrong with visual editors?

Just think for a moment about a model of markup structure separated from format, and the formatting model requires that the entire set of CSS rules must be re-read every single time that *anything* is edited in a page to verify if the context, specificity, and cascade positions remain the same or have changed. It doesn't matter a stuff if you hand-code markup and CSS; it matters quite a lot if you are trying to present something in a visual editor.

Actually, I think given the way the standards are written and the way they work, both GoLive and Dreamweaver do a good job.

There are certainly tools in both which try to put back together, or hide, the separation which lies at the heart of the structural markup/CSS formatting model. If you actually understand the way they are designed to separate, on the other hand, GoLive provides pretty good tools for creating your CSS.

John 



Best regards,

Marilyn Langfeld
http://www.langfeldesigns.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
+1.301.598.3300 business phone
+1.301.598.0532 fax
+1.202.390.8847 mobile

Re: [WSG] Adobe Forum comment on CSS in visual editors

2004-11-25 Thread Manuel González Noriega
 
  Ron,
 
  it is clear to me that the individuals who designed this
 application were/are not hard core CSS scripters.
 
 Sorry, but there is a counter-argument here. It is clear to me that the
 people who designed the CSS standard were entirely unconcerned about
 how it might ever be handled by visual editors, since none of them
 actually used visual editors, nor did they even consider that they
 might be or should be important. The only model which interested them
 was, prepare markup in a text editor, write CSS rules in a text editor,
 check result in browser. So, what's so wrong with visual editors?

The way I read this, Macromedia  Adobe are actually selling something
that is by its very nature defective.  I feel so fine :)

-- 
Manuel 
a veces :) a veces :( 
pero siempre trabajando duro para Simplelógica: apariencia,
experiencia y comunicación en la web.
http://simplelogica.net # (+34) 985 22 12 65

¡Ah! y escribiendo en Logicola: http://simplelogica.net/logicola/
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RE: [WSG] Learning to design Accessibility

2004-11-25 Thread Mike Foskett

I've just finished some interactive tutorials for content developers which 
may be of use. It only covers the basics but does get the point across (I 
think).
 http://www.websemantics.co.uk/workshop/sessions/session2/

Also you might need greater detail on forms:

 http://www.websemantics.co.uk/tutorials/form_guidelines/

hope it helps.

mike 2k:)2



-Original Message-
From:   Tim Burgan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent:   Thu 11/25/2004 10:11 AM
To: [WSG] Web Standards Group
Cc: 
Subject:[WSG] Learning to design Accessibility
Hi,


I've done freelance work using standards for a few years, but now due to 
study I'm looking to get some casual web design work in Adelaide.

I know and use standards, and I understand the need for accessibility, 
but I don't know how or what need to be implemented to meet 
accessibility needs.

Is there a resource that's available that is able to fill the gaps in my 
knowledge regarding accessibility?


Thanks for your time.

Tim

-- 

Tim Burgan.
Website Development  Graphic Design

E [EMAIL PROTECTED]
W www.timburgan.com



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Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread Mordechai Peller
Bert Doorn wrote:
It's also frustrating to get emails with microscopic text (accessibility
issue).  Text/plain please?
 

Both Thunderbird and Firefox allow you to set the minimum font size. 
Accessibility fighting back!

As far as your dilemma goes - don't lower your standards (pun intended) for
the sake of getting work.  If you can't convince them, let them go.
A wise and business savvy uncle of mine once told me that in business 
there are three factors: speed, cost, and quality. At best, you can only 
get 2 out of 3.

Maybe they will come back when the site they get doesn't do what they need it to.
 

I could never understand why there never seems to be enough time to do 
something right, but always time to do it over.

If the lack of traffic from Google is one of their main reasons to redo the
site, tell them (in broad terms) why you think Google doesn't like the site.
 

Spiders have very strict dietary requirement: key word seasoned content 
mixed with links. You don't feed the right, they'll avoid you and rarely 
come for dinner.
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[WSG] Link definition

2004-11-25 Thread The Man With His Guide Dog At The Tent Store
All this taalk about web standards got me thinking about the underling of 
links. As I understand it is that a person can turn on or off the 
underlineing of links via there browser options. If a person turns off the 
underlineing of links how would a web designer highlight a link? Is the 
underlineing of links standard knowledge?

Angus MacKinnon
MacKinnon Crest Saying
Latin -  Audentes Fortuna Juvat
English - Fortune Assists The Daring
Web page: http://members.shaw.ca/dabneyadfm
Choroideremia Research Foundation Inc.
http://www.choroideremia.org


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Re: [WSG] Adobe Forum comment on CSS in visual editors

2004-11-25 Thread Andrew Thompson
The point is only valid within their (Adobe's) current mode of thinking - that 
Style Sheets are created on the fly as designers muck about trying things 
within the visual editor, saving as they go. It may be done, but surely the 
only way to design is to produce your designs off-line, produce your templates 
and off you go? 

If forcing designers to think through their designs before hacking them out on 
a computer is a by-product of visual editors creating CSS, I'm all for it!

Sounds to me like the writer doesn't understand CSS at all.



On Friday, 26 November 2004 1:51 AM, Marilyn Langfeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I was looking through the Adobe GoLive forum and came across
this comment, which I thought would be of interest. I'm not
trying to provoke a response here, but I think it's important
to hear the perspective of an employee at Adobe who often helps
people with CSS questions on their forum. And since most
beginning web designers (accent on designers) probably try
Dreamweaver or GoLive first, when learning web design. 

http://tinyurl.com/4jo25 
free registration required, so I'm also quoting the post. 

Here's the comment, which is a little off topic of the thread,
in answer to an earlier comment by Ron which is quoted: 



JohnDonaldson  - 4:42pm Nov 22, 04 PST (#18 of 21)  Edited:
22-Nov-2004 at 04:43pm 

Ron, 

it is clear to me that the individuals who designed
this application were/are not hard core CSS scripters.  


Sorry, but there is a counter-argument here. It is clear to me
that the people who designed the CSS standard were entirely
unconcerned about how it might ever be handled by visual
editors, since none of them actually used visual editors, nor
did they even consider that they might be or should be
important. The only model which interested them was, prepare
markup in a text editor, write CSS rules in a text editor,
check result in browser. So, what's so wrong with visual
editors? 

Just think for a moment about a model of markup structure
separated from format, and the formatting model requires that
the entire set of CSS rules must be re-read every single time
that *anything* is edited in a page to verify if the context,
specificity, and cascade positions remain the same or have
changed. It doesn't matter a stuff if you hand-code markup and
CSS; it matters quite a lot if you are trying to present
something in a visual editor. 

Actually, I think given the way the standards are written and
the way they work, both GoLive and Dreamweaver do a good job. 

There are certainly tools in both which try to put back
together, or hide, the separation which lies at the heart of
the structural markup/CSS formatting model. If you actually
understand the way they are designed to separate, on the other
hand, GoLive provides pretty good tools for creating your CSS. 

John  



Best regards, 

Marilyn Langfeld 
http://www.langfeldesigns.com 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
+1.301.598.3300 business phone 
+1.301.598.0532 fax 
+1.202.390.8847 mobile


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Re: [WSG] Link definition

2004-11-25 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
The Man With His Guide Dog At The Tent Store wrote:
All this taalk about web standards got me thinking about the underling of 
links. As I understand it is that a person can turn on or off the 
underlineing of links via there browser options. If a person turns off the 
underlineing of links how would a web designer highlight a link? Is the 
underlineing of links standard knowledge?
If a user disables a default setting, then it's not really up to the 
designer to make up for that (if that was your question).
And yes, I'd say it's common knowledge with (sighted) users that an 
underline signifies a link. That's why it's not recommended to use 
underlined styles for other texts. Of course, underlines are not the 
only clue as to what is and isn't a link. In most cases, it depends on 
context. E.g. in a navigation bar that's in a traditional location (top 
or left), users would more likely than not come to expect text to be 
links, particularly if it's arranged in a list. In this case I'd posit 
that underlines are not needed.

Patrick H. Lauke
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Re: [WSG] Link definition

2004-11-25 Thread russ - maxdesign
 And yes, I'd say it's common knowledge with (sighted) users that an
 underline signifies a link. That's why it's not recommended to use
 underlined styles for other texts. Of course, underlines are not the
 only clue as to what is and isn't a link. In most cases, it depends on
 context. E.g. in a navigation bar that's in a traditional location (top
 or left), users would more likely than not come to expect text to be
 links, particularly if it's arranged in a list. In this case I'd posit
 that underlines are not needed.

The question underlining of links standard knowledge? is more of a
usability question rather than a web standards question. Underlined links
are one of the few well-understood aspect of the web - like the back button
- so changing this behaviour should be considered carefully.

While I agree with Patrick about navigation links, some would argue that you
should never change default link behaviour - colour or underlines. Instead,
the users should determine these aspects for themselves.

The downside of this argument is that changing default behaviour can
sometimes enhance usability:
- the use of hover effects (to provide additional feedback)
- increasing the padding around the a element (to aid clickability)
- turning off underlines and using border-bottom instead (to increase
readability for certain user groups)
- or even (contentiously) the use of background image icons to show offsite
links.

In the end, the decision to change default link behaviour should be
determined by the type of site, the target audiences and most importantly,
by user testing - not by black and white statements.

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Re: [WSG] Adobe Forum comment on CSS in visual editors

2004-11-25 Thread Big John
This certainly is an interesting take from inside the
Adobe mentality.
 
 Sorry, but there is a counter-argument here. It is clear to me that the 
 people who designed the CSS standard were entirely unconcerned about 
 how it might ever be handled by visual editors, since none of them 
 actually used visual editors, nor did they even consider that they 
 might be or should be important. The only model which interested them 
 was, prepare markup in a text editor, write CSS rules in a text editor, 
 check result in browser. So, what's so wrong with visual editors?

Well, they don't display CSS pages like browsers do, for one.
The onus is on the editor makers to handle the code correctly,
not on the industry to coddle the editor makers. If even MS can
manage to get CSS right most of the time, then I see no excuse
for editor makers, other than the admitted difficulty of the task.
 
 Just think for a moment about a model of markup structure separated 
 from format, and the formatting model requires that the entire set of 
 CSS rules must be re-read every single time that *anything* is edited 
 in a page to verify if the context, specificity, and cascade positions 
 remain the same or have changed. It doesn't matter a stuff if you 
 hand-code markup and CSS; it matters quite a lot if you are trying to 
 present something in a visual editor.

Why? Is it too much to ask a visual editor to refresh
the display after every edit? Hand coders do that with
their browsers, so what's the big deal? Is he afraid users 
will freak out over a two second delay now and then?

 Actually, I think given the way the standards are written and the way 
 they work, both GoLive and Dreamweaver do a good job.

I find that DW totally mangles the appearance of any CSS 
page that uses anything approaching a complex layout, 
even layouts that Explorer 5/Win can easily handle!
And let's not even get into what happens when one tries to
edit a CSS page in DW using the direct wysiwyg functions. 
The words train wreck are quite sufficient. 

I do understand the incredibly difficult job these editor
makers face in handling CSS positioning correctly, but they
managed to do it with tables, and I suspect that was pretty 
difficult too. My only real beef is with the good job claim.

I do expect DW to eventually become CSS friendly, but only 
after IE and its many issues is taken out of the picture.
Right now tho, DW+CSS is still a work in progress.

Big John





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Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread Terrence Wood
Warning my response is long and perhaps rambles a bit -- there are the 
beginnings of some nice ideas but it's lacking polish - I'm tired.

When I pitch for a site I don't talk about web standards and 
accessibility per se - these are just methodologies I use to deliver 
results. Web standards and accessibility are invisible to the untrained eye.

In my experience clients generally talk about the site working in this 
browser and that browser as part of their requirements. I take this and 
guide the conversation towards meeting published standards independent 
of specific browser technology, ranking well in search engines (using 
design methods, not SEO), and a having a lower total cost of ownership.

The skill is, as with any sales, to speak to the clients desires - push 
those buttons that turns your client on. The psychology of decision 
making is that it is an emotional process which is then rationalized 
with the 'facts'.

So if you're pitching to, say, a fashion designer, then using flash 
(stereotypically the antithesis of accessibility and googleness) could 
well be the best tool to use for content delivery. [Use flash satay to 
make it accessible].

The biggest challenge designers face when pitching is how to preserve 
the value of design in an industry that promises one click professional 
publishing (yes, I'm looking at you dreamweaver, and dtp in general) in 
a market that is easy to enter but hard to master. How do you articulate 
what good design actually is when it is sometimes hard to distinguish 
from bad design? Good design often just works better, or looks better on 
a perceptual level and it's hard to pinpoint the 'why?'.

I think basing a sales pitch on a specific browser is a huge mistake, as 
is skewing a design to work with a browsers strengths in a specific 
climate at a specific point of time -- it runs counter to my view of 
what web standards are about.

Right now, getting things to work in IE is really the only area of 
designing with web standards that runs the risk of blowing out a design 
budget, but with experience this browsers quirks can generally be 
avoided/minimized...

So you really need to tell the story of why your 'expensive' design is 
so much better than you competitors cheap design when, with practice, 
the methodology for producing a standards design is arguably the same as 
a non-standards design.


Terrence Wood.

On 2004-11-25 10:25 PM, Kristof Rutten wrote:
Hi All,
 
 
 I don't know if you guys experience the same anoying and frustrating talks
when it comes
 to convince a prospect/client of the fact his/her site isn't working for
most of the world.
 
 -- The fact that it's not build following certain standards, the fact
Google is like a blind, numb en deaf
 person and so on. Finally you have the guy convinced, in comes the next
frontpage cowboy.
 
 He lowers the price, the target, the standards .. and up up and away, there
goes another client.
 
 How do you convince your client to spend a little more on the design, the
coding and the usability
 when the most simple logic doesn't work ? 
 
 Do you have the same feeling most people don't care about all of the above
and keep running 
 around with the idea IE will fix all.
 
 Prospects site: http://www.s2store.be BLOCKED::http://www.s2store.be 
 Frontpage cowboys: http://www.xperienz.be BLOCKED::http://www.xperienz.be

 
 The prospect is complaining about the fact his site doesn't show up in
Google and zhy all of his competitors
 do. 
 
 The Google results :  http://www.google.be/search?q=site:s2store.be
BLOCKED::http://www.google.be/search?q=site:s2store.behl=nllr=start=20s
a=N hl=nllr=start=20sa=N
 
 
 Remarks, ideas - toughts ? 
 
.K
--
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Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
Terrence Wood wrote:
When I pitch for a site I don't talk about web standards and 
accessibility per se - these are just methodologies I use to deliver 
results. Web standards and accessibility are invisible to the untrained 
eye.
I always liken this to something like the construction industry: if I 
hire somebody to build me a house, I don't want them to talk to me about 
what type of mortar they'll be using. I trust that they'll choose the 
most appropriate mortar for the job. I'd be much more interested in what 
colour brick they may use, for instance...

So if you're pitching to, say, a fashion designer, then using flash 
(stereotypically the antithesis of accessibility and googleness) could 
well be the best tool to use for content delivery. [Use flash satay to 
make it accessible].
Just wanted to point out that flash satay does nothing to improve 
accessibility. It only ensures validity of the markup against the xhtml 
spec, nothing more.

Patrick H. Lauke
--
_
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
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Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread Terrence Wood
Patrick you are right -- in and of itself flash satay doesn't improve 
accessibility. But using the object tag properly does - which is what 
the satay method uses (I use a variation with IE comments).

Example (accessible image map, but same principles apply):
http://developer.apple.com/internet/webcontent/access.html
Another discussion:
http://www.corfield.org/coldfusion/accessibility.html
Terrence Wood.
On 2004-11-26 10:32 AM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
Terrence Wood wrote:
Just wanted to point out that flash satay does nothing to improve 
accessibility. It only ensures validity of the markup against the xhtml 
spec, nothing more.

Patrick H. Lauke
--
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Re: [WSG] Learning to design Accessibility

2004-11-25 Thread Laura Carlson
Is there a resource that's available that
is able to fill the gaps in my knowledge
regarding accessibility?
You might want to try:
http://www.d.umn.edu/goto/accessibility
Laura
___
Laura L. Carlson
Information Technology Systems and Services
University of Minnesota Duluth
Duluth, MN  55812-3009
http://www.d.umn.edu/goto/webdesign/
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[WSG] Discussion Threading

2004-11-25 Thread Jixor - Stephen I
Are there any mail clients that will automatically thread discussions? I 
use news groups regularly and comparatively the discussion list is very 
annoying and cumbersome.

Cheers.
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Re: [WSG] Discussion Threading

2004-11-25 Thread Jeffery Fernandez
Jixor - Stephen I wrote:
Are there any mail clients that will automatically thread discussions? 
I use news groups regularly and comparatively the discussion list is 
very annoying and cumbersome.

Cheers.
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.
Thunderbird/Mozilla
cheers,
Jeffery
http://melbourne.ug.php.net
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RE: [WSG] Applications that don't open in a new window

2004-11-25 Thread David McDonald

There is no need to open a new window in this case, in fact opening a
new window for the reason so that the user can't use the back button
is just lazy programming.

The form pages should hold the users information, and be able to
maintain state if the user goes backward  and submits again. This
should be session based only, of course.

This is pretty standard practice. Take a look at Amazon, eBay, PayPal
an numerous other sites. 

 Original Message 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] Applications that don't open in a new window
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 14:09:28 +1100

On our website, we ask people to fill in a form to register their
details for an event.

 

Our backend coder (php) insists that a new window should open for
this
form, so that the user cannot use the browser's navigation buttons,
because if they do some of the information does not make it back to
the
database (or something like that!).

 

I told him that I don't want a new window opening as it is not
user-friendly and may be difficult for people with physical
disabilities
to use.

 

We have now reached an impasse. I told him I would supply examples of
similar applications online that comply with web standards i.e. do
not
open in a new window. Does anybody know of any that I can pass on?

 

Ta, 

Priscilla

Regards,

David McDonald
Web Designer
http://www.davidmcdonald.org

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Re: [WSG] Discussion Threading

2004-11-25 Thread Matt McCallum
Hi Stephen,

Its still in Beta, but Google Gmail handles discussion threading
really well. I subscribe to all of my lists (including this one) with
my Gmail account, and keep it separate from my personal and business
mail which gets delivered to my mail client.
Also you can keep all of the messages and search them with the Google
engine if you need to find any info on a past thread.

If you want something that isn't browser based, try Firebird for
Windows or Mac, or the default mail.app in Mac OSX which handles
threading well also.

Matt


On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 14:04:34 +1100, Jixor - Stephen I [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Are there any mail clients that will automatically thread discussions? I
 use news groups regularly and comparatively the discussion list is very
 annoying and cumbersome.
 
 Cheers.
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  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
  for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
 **
 

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Re: [WSG] Discussion Threading

2004-11-25 Thread Matt McCallum
I meant Thunderbird! sorry


On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 14:26:16 +1100, Matt McCallum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi Stephen,
 
 Its still in Beta, but Google Gmail handles discussion threading
 really well. I subscribe to all of my lists (including this one) with
 my Gmail account, and keep it separate from my personal and business
 mail which gets delivered to my mail client.
 Also you can keep all of the messages and search them with the Google
 engine if you need to find any info on a past thread.
 
 If you want something that isn't browser based, try Firebird for
 Windows or Mac, or the default mail.app in Mac OSX which handles
 threading well also.
 
 Matt
 
 
 
 
 On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 14:04:34 +1100, Jixor - Stephen I [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  Are there any mail clients that will automatically thread discussions? I
  use news groups regularly and comparatively the discussion list is very
  annoying and cumbersome.
 
  Cheers.
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   See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
   for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
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Re: [WSG] Discussion Threading

2004-11-25 Thread Tim Shortt
Jixor - Stephen I wrote:
Are there any mail clients that will automatically thread discussions? I 
use news groups regularly and comparatively the discussion list is very 
annoying and cumbersome.

Mozilla Thunderbird. View  Sort by  Threaded
Note: When somebody doesn't 'Reply to' a post (meaning, they just hit 
'New' and copy the Subject, the msg will not show threaded. But for the 
most part, people in the know do this.
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RE: [WSG] Applications that don't open in a new window

2004-11-25 Thread John Horner
I agree with David. Your PHP guy is simply mistaken. Or, to be 
charitable, he has failed to get across whatever point he wanted to 
make.

I can't see why opening a new window makes any difference at all. And 
if it's absolutely crucial that people don't use the back button, 
what's wrong with just telling them that?

If you can get an email from the PHP guy explaining in more detail 
what he thinks the issue is, we could discuss it in more detail.

jh
There is no need to open a new window in this case, in fact opening a
new window for the reason so that the user can't use the back button
is just lazy programming.
The form pages should hold the users information, and be able to
maintain state if the user goes backward  and submits again. This
should be session based only, of course.
This is pretty standard practice. Take a look at Amazon, eBay, PayPal
an numerous other sites.
 Original Message 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] Applications that don't open in a new window
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 14:09:28 +1100
On our website, we ask people to fill in a form to register their
details for an event.

Our backend coder (php) insists that a new window should open for
this
form, so that the user cannot use the browser's navigation buttons,
because if they do some of the information does not make it back to
the
database (or something like that!).

I told him that I don't want a new window opening as it is not
user-friendly and may be difficult for people with physical
disabilities
to use.

We have now reached an impasse. I told him I would supply examples of
similar applications online that comply with web standards i.e. do
not
open in a new window. Does anybody know of any that I can pass on?

Ta,
Priscilla
Regards,
David McDonald
Web Designer
http://www.davidmcdonald.org
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   Have You Validated Your Code?
John Horner(+612 / 02) 9333 3488
Senior Developer, ABC Online  http://www.abc.net.au/

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Re: [WSG] Applications that don't open in a new window

2004-11-25 Thread Terrence Wood
Gosh, I just had some email rage, y'know like road rage but about this 
email. edit expletives about the backend person

Forms, database connections, cookies, and sessions, have nothing to do 
windows, and I suggest your backend coder does know what he is doing if 
he needs a new window to make something work.

The list of web apps that don't open new windows is too numerous to 
mention (any page where you login or search for something) but here's 
one: google.com

Terrence Wood.
On 2004-11-26 4:09 PM, Priscilla Brice-Weller wrote:
On our website, we ask people to fill in a form to register their
details for an event.
Our backend coder (php) insists that a new window should open for this
form, so that the user cannot use the browser's navigation buttons,
because if they do some of the information does not make it back to the
database (or something like that!).
I told him that I don't want a new window opening as it is not
user-friendly and may be difficult for people with physical disabilities
to use.
We have now reached an impasse. I told him I would supply examples of
similar applications online that comply with web standards i.e. do not
open in a new window. Does anybody know of any that I can pass on?
Ta, 

Priscilla
--
You know you've achieved perfection in design, not when you have 
nothing more to add, but when you have nothing more to take away. 
-Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread Chris Stratford
Something I think you all are missing is that you have taken time to 
learn about standards and accessibility.
I think I can charge more for my services because I have more knowledge 
about standards.
So for me the price may be more expensive - but they are paying for my 
knowledege and experience - rather than more time and work put into a job.

I hope that sounded right?
But yeah - if you hire someone who has a degree in software engineering 
and majoring in Java - they will get more pay than someone who is 
equally as skilled with Java - but they didn't learn at university...
Well thats what I have noticed in life thus far.

Anyway - anyone agree???
Jixor - Stephen I wrote:
To be honest I don't understand how building using standards could 
cost more unless you simply don't know what your doing. Its really as 
simple as that, there is no extra work involved in using standards, if 
anything its less work. Building using standards is a choice not an 
extra.

If you can't sell standards to your client then you should research 
the benefits more because time and time again standards based design 
has more than proven itself, in ways that a business understands.

The only reason standards based design may cost more is because its 
often the difference between crap and at least decent design. However 
often clients going for the cheapest will have actually wasted their 
money because the results tend to be so bad.


Kristof Rutten wrote:
Hi All,
 
 
 I don't know if you guys experience the same anoying and frustrating 
talks when it comes
 to convince a prospect/client of the fact his/her site isn't working 
for most of the world.
 
 -- The fact that it's not build following certain standards, the 
fact Google is like a blind, numb en deaf
 person and so on. Finally you have the guy convinced, in comes the 
next frontpage cowboy.
 
 He lowers the price, the target, the standards .. and up up and 
away, there goes another client.
 
 How do you convince your client to spend a little more on the 
design, the coding and the usability
 when the most simple logic doesn't work ?
 
 Do you have the same feeling most people don't care about all of the 
above and keep running
 around with the idea IE will fix all.
 
 Prospects site: http://www.s2store.be BLOCKED::http://www.s2store.be
 Frontpage cowboys: http://www.xperienz.be 
BLOCKED::http://www.xperienz.be
 
 The prospect is complaining about the fact his site doesn't show up 
in Google and zhy all of his competitors
 do.
 
 The Google results :  
http://www.google.be/search?q=site:s2store.behl=nllr=start=20sa=N 
BLOCKED::http://www.google.be/search?q=site:s2store.behl=nllr=start=20sa=N 

 
 
 Remarks, ideas - toughts ?
 
.K
 

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--

Chris Stratford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.neester.com

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Re: [WSG] Discussion Threading

2004-11-25 Thread Kay Smoljak
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 14:04:34 +1100, Jixor - Stephen I [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Are there any mail clients that will automatically thread discussions? I
 use news groups regularly and comparatively the discussion list is very
 annoying and cumbersome.

Although it's not trendy to mention it, Outlook will handle threads
quite acceptably if you choose Arrange By - Conversation from the
View menu :)

-- 
Kay Smoljak
http://kay.smoljak.com/
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RE: [WSG] Applications that don't open in a new window

2004-11-25 Thread Hill, Tim
C: Alt and left arrow key (works for forward with right arrow key as
well) 


Tim Hill
Computer Associates
Graphic Artist
tel: +612 9937 0792
fax: +612 9937 0546
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Cameron Adams
Sent: Friday, 26 November 2004 2:38 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Applications that don't open in a new window

Opening a window without navigation elements doesn't actually stop you
from going back in the browser's history.

You can either:

A. Hit the backspace button to go back

B. Right-click and choose back

--
Cameron

W: www.themaninblue.com


--- Priscilla Brice-Weller
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Our backend coder (php) insists that a new window should open for this

 form, so that the user cannot use the browser's navigation buttons, 
 because if they do some of the information does not make it back to 
 the database (or something like that!).



__
Do you Yahoo!? 
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! 
http://my.yahoo.com 
 

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Re: [WSG] Applications that don't open in a new window

2004-11-25 Thread russ - maxdesign
 Opening a window without navigation elements doesn't
 actually stop you from going back in the browser's
 history.
 You can either:
 A. Hit the backspace button to go back
 B. Right-click and choose back

This is all when and good, but many users are still only just getting the
concept of clicking the back button - these keyboard options are definitely
not on the radar.

During usability tests, I have seen users get quite lost when new windows
pop up. I can't go back! (in a panicky voice).

At the end of a session I have seen these users closed the current browser
window and then be quite puzzled about the other windows underneath. Ahhh,
there's that page! How did it get there?.

I've also seen a vision impaired user who use screen magnifiers set at high
degrees of magnification loose a popup window completely. The popup occurred
off-screen and caused a great degree of confusion. I've clicked on the link
again but nothing happened.

David Woodbridge, the blind tech. specialist from the Royal Blind society
recently talked about how popup windows can sometimes stop screen readers
talking completely - the sound simply stops and the user had no idea where
they are.

The question might be better put the other way around...

Knowing that pop-ups can cause usability and accessibility issues, is there
a real need to make this page pop up?

Russ


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Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread Terrence Wood
Yes, that is a good point, and is what I was getting at earlier:
you really need to tell the story of why your 'expensive' design is
so much better than you competitors cheap design
There is a joke (loosely paraphrased) about the plumber kicking a pipe 
and charges $100 for it. When the bill is questioned he says: I kicked 
the pipe for free. I charged for knowing where to kick it.

This is how it is for design I think...
Terrence Wood.
On 2004-11-26 4:45 PM, Chris Stratford wrote:
Something I think you all are missing is that you have taken time to 
learn about standards and accessibility. I think I can charge more 
for my services because I have more knowledge about standards. So for
 me the price may be more expensive - but they are paying for my 
knowledege and experience - rather than more time and work put into a
 job.

I hope that sounded right? But yeah - if you hire someone who has a 
degree in software engineering and majoring in Java - they will get 
more pay than someone who is equally as skilled with Java - but they 
didn't learn at university... Well thats what I have noticed in life 
thus far.

Anyway - anyone agree???

--
You know you've achieved perfection in design, not when you have
nothing more to add, but when you have nothing more to take away.
-Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread Nick Lo
What you are really getting at is not so much that you charge more 
because you know about building accessible standards based websites but 
because your experience is broader. For example you can say ...and 
because the site is built this way it has such and such benefits to 
vision impaired users or such and such benefits to search engine 
spiders.

There are numerous angles and numerous articles/tools online which can 
be used to demonstrate the benefits too. In the end the client should 
get the sense that you know what you are talking about if you 
demonstrate the benefits to them. Clients are looking for good advice 
as much as technical skills (which most often they don't follow anyway).

Nick

Something I think you all are missing is that you have taken time to 
learn about standards and accessibility.
I think I can charge more for my services because I have more 
knowledge about standards.
So for me the price may be more expensive - but they are paying for my 
knowledege and experience - rather than more time and work put into a 
job.
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Re: [WSG] Discussion Threading

2004-11-25 Thread Sam - SS29
Thunderbird allows this to be clicked on / off
Jixor - Stephen I wrote:
Are there any mail clients that will automatically thread discussions? 
I use news groups regularly and comparatively the discussion list is 
very annoying and cumbersome.

Cheers.
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Re: [WSG] Adobe Forum comment on CSS in visual editors

2004-11-25 Thread Czeslaw Liebert
I am a bit amazed with Adobe's approach to this matter; i even hope that it 
was this technical man's personal opinion on the subject. Why? The DW team 
is constantly trying to make their product compatible with web standards - 
the WaSP group is encouraging them to do so 
(http://www.webstandards.org/act/campaign/dwtf/), and yet we can see some 
results of it in the newest version on DW; sure it still isn't perfect but 
we can observe some progress. Why shouldn't Adobe GoLive team do the same?

The web has passed the point of safe return when it comes to  web 
standards, accessibility and usability matters; they are to be taken under 
consideration even by folks at Adobe. It's the only way...

---
Czes³aw Liebert
http://www.78and85.com/
tel. (+48) (0) 504 425 892
mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

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Re: [WSG] Applications that don't open in a new window

2004-11-25 Thread Nick Lo
Hi Priscilla,
I develop in PHP (though the actual language is fairly irrelevant) and 
based on what you say it sounds like a fingers crossed approach to the 
problem. Not knowing the perspective of your developer I cannot say 
whether he is wrong or right, but I can say with absolute certainty 
there is no fundamental reason to have to open a new window to control 
the way a user interacts with the form.

I'm not sure how far to go without drifting off topic but the thing he 
may be talking about is maintaining state. For example; if the user 
submits the form but their email is invalid, you want to send them back 
to the same form to correct it. During that submission you need to hold 
the data they submitted (i.e. maintain state), check it and if 
incorrect send them back to the form with the data they filled in still 
there. In multi page forms it is also crucial to carry over data.

Neither cases have necessarily anything to do with what windows are 
open. Personally I, like you, would never open a new window and in fact 
would see it as yet another thing I'd have to control in the dangerous 
world of forms.

John's comment:
If you can get an email from the PHP guy explaining in more detail 
what he thinks the issue is, we could discuss it in more detail.

Is probably a good idea.
Nick
Our backend coder (php) insists that a new window should open for this 
form, so that the user cannot use the browsers navigation buttons, 
because if they do some of the information does not make it back to 
the database (or something like that!).

I told him that I dont want a new window opening as it is not 
user-friendly and may be difficult for people with physical 
disabilities to use.

We have now reached an impasse. I told him I would supply examples of 
similar applications online that comply with web standards i.e. do not 
open in a new window. Does anybody know of any that I can pass on?
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[WSG] modify styles for smaller screen resolutions

2004-11-25 Thread Cade Whitbourn
Hi,

I'm experimenting with using javascript to write in alternate style
information into the body of my webpages, similar to the current
www.smh.com.au method (view source and scroll down to immediately inside
body).

The method seems to work fine, but I am wondering about the pros/cons of
doing this, from a best practice/web standards point of view? Have other
people implemented similar solutions?

BTW, I am working within the constraints of a specific design where most of
the components need to be fixed width.

Many thanks,
Cade
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[WSG] Stop Breaking my code!

2004-11-25 Thread braddles
Hi all,
This is probably not the forum for such things, and if not, my apologies, but...I've been slaving away on a C# project in MS Visual Studio .NET (2002) and have spent a good couple of hours trying to find out a way to stop the blasted thing from ruining my lovely XHTML1.0 Strict code!
I createda basic template in notepad, validated it and the CSS, checked it in a few browsers (Win  Mac) to make sure it works ok and then inserted it into Visual Studio to add in the C# controls etc and when I saved it, it turned my lovely code in garbage (the rude thing even removed all the /li!)
Now, I realise that it's Microsoft and this particular version of the program is "like so 2002", but does any one know of a way (short of updating the software) to make it leave my code alone and just do its job?
I thought about ditching it all together and just do it all in notepad, but I'm only new to C# and have no idea how to code it without the fancy drag  drop Visual Studio offers (lame I know).
Any hints, ideas, suggestions would be GREATLY appreciate. Surely there's other Web Standards Freaks[1] who also happen to play with .net technologies?
Cheers
Bradhttp://brad-lucas.org
[1] I mean "Freak" in a positive way. I consider myself a Web Standards Freak and use the term with pride.
---



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Re: [WSG] Discussion Threading

2004-11-25 Thread Jixor - Stephen I
I of course already use it I just didn't know it had this feature, 
slightly annoying.

Thanks!
Jeffery Fernandez wrote:
Jixor - Stephen I wrote:
Are there any mail clients that will automatically thread 
discussions? I use news groups regularly and comparatively the 
discussion list is very annoying and cumbersome.

Cheers.
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.
Thunderbird/Mozilla
cheers,
Jeffery
http://melbourne.ug.php.net
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[WSG] Explain why div isnt contained

2004-11-25 Thread Adam Hough
Link to my problem page (http://dampsponge.com/layout/layout1.htm)
I want to understand containing boxes and why some child boxes don't push 
their parent down the page.  I have a div in this page called;

#container
border: 1px solid #000;
background: url(purlpeimage.jpg) repeat-y right;)
this div sits around 2 other divs;
1. #content (float:left;width:560px;)
2. #sidebar (margin-left:560px)
In FF, Opera  Netscape (leave out IE, there is an issue there with the 
#sidebar that i will resolve later) the border of#container is clearly 
visible.  #conainer doesn't seem to contain the #content div (with its own 
nested divs), it instead only works off the height of the #sidebar div.

Why doesn't the wrapping div contain the child #content div like it does the 
#sidebar so that the black border wraps it all?


nameadam hough
sitedampsponge.com
suggestiondont dig to deep you might get burnt by the molten lava
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Re: [WSG] Stop Breaking my code!

2004-11-25 Thread Francesco
In VS.NET, under Tools...Options...Text Editor...C#...

uncheck the box for Automatically format completed constructs and
pasted source

Also, make sure your checkboxes under Tools...Options...HTML Designer...

are all set to HTML View.

Let me know if that helps.

Francesco





On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 15:18:37 +1000, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
 
 Hi all,
 
 This is probably not the forum for such things, and if not, my
 apologies, but...I've been slaving away on a C# project in MS
 Visual Studio .NET (2002) and have spent a good couple of hours
 trying to find out a way to stop the blasted thing from ruining
 my lovely XHTML1.0 Strict code!

Francesco Sanfilippo, Internet Developer
---
Blackcoil Productions - http://blackcoil.com
URL123 Link Service - http://url123.com

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Re: [WSG] Adobe Forum comment on CSS in visual editors

2004-11-25 Thread Sam - SS29
As far as I see Adobe is not to bothered with webstandards, Macromedia 
see standard compliance as a string to DW bow.

The adobe site is based old skool web design, surface looks nice but 
underneth its ugly.

I gather that since adobe is renowned and respected for design 
orientated products like Photoshop, the adobe perpspective (short 
sighted as it may be is) focused on allowing designers with knowledge of 
photoshop and other such packages to be able to knock out web pages with 
not to much fuss, thoughing standards out the window

DW is the most accomplished web standards pacakge although it has to be 
confiigured to do so, the time and effort in this is above and beyond 
just doing it by hand (browser/simple html editor)

Quark (http://www.quark.com/) I believe has a web publishing package I 
have heard that it supports web standards, with little configuration, 
the site has been xhtml for a long time now

Czeslaw Liebert wrote:
I am a bit amazed with Adobe's approach to this matter; i even hope 
that it was this technical man's personal opinion on the subject. Why? 
The DW team is constantly trying to make their product compatible with 
web standards - the WaSP group is encouraging them to do so 
(http://www.webstandards.org/act/campaign/dwtf/), and yet we can see 
some results of it in the newest version on DW; sure it still isn't 
perfect but we can observe some progress. Why shouldn't Adobe GoLive 
team do the same?

The web has passed the point of safe return when it comes to  web 
standards, accessibility and usability matters; they are to be taken 
under consideration even by folks at Adobe. It's the only way...

---
Czes³aw Liebert
http://www.78and85.com/
tel. (+48) (0) 504 425 892
mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [WSG] Stop Breaking my code! - ADMIN

2004-11-25 Thread russ - maxdesign
ADMIN

 Hi all,
 
 This is probably not the forum for such things, and if not, my apologies,
 but...I've been slaving away on a C# project in MS Visual Studio .NET (2002)
 and have spent a good couple of hours trying to find out a way to stop the
 blasted thing from ruining my lovely XHTML1.0 Strict code!

Please reply to Brad offlist - as it is off-topic

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Re: [WSG] Explain why div isnt contained

2004-11-25 Thread Sam - SS29

I asked the same issue a few days ago, the answer is on the following page
Mordechai Peller advised me to read the following
Another thing to check out 
http://positioniseverything.net/easyclearing.html

I read it, and decided to adopt a work around since I found the syntax 
of the various hacks mind boggling

hope this help
ss
Adam Hough wrote:
Link to my problem page (http://dampsponge.com/layout/layout1.htm)
I want to understand containing boxes and why some child boxes don't 
push their parent down the page.  I have a div in this page called;

#container
border: 1px solid #000;
background: url(purlpeimage.jpg) repeat-y right;)
this div sits around 2 other divs;
1. #content (float:left;width:560px;)
2. #sidebar (margin-left:560px)
In FF, Opera  Netscape (leave out IE, there is an issue there with 
the #sidebar that i will resolve later) the border of#container is 
clearly visible.  #conainer doesn't seem to contain the #content div 
(with its own nested divs), it instead only works off the height of 
the #sidebar div.

Why doesn't the wrapping div contain the child #content div like it 
does the #sidebar so that the black border wraps it all?


nameadam hough
sitedampsponge.com
suggestiondont dig to deep you might get burnt by the molten lava
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--
Thx Sam aka [EMAIL PROTECTED]
w: www.ss29.co.uk
t: 07958 322 010
---
Passion Inspires Creativity

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Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread Rick Faaberg
On 11/25/04 7:00 PM Jixor - Stephen I [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out:

 To be honest I don't understand how building using standards could cost
 more unless you simply don't know what your doing. Its really as simple
 as that, there is no extra work involved in using standards, if anything
 its less work. Building using standards is a choice not an extra.

Keep studying those apostrophes though - plurals vs. possessives vs.
contractions, etc.!

Rick Faaberg

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Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.

2004-11-25 Thread Vicki Berry
I rarely even mention web standards to clients anymore unless they are
govt or govt agencies.  I agree that as someone paying a builder to
build a house for me, I don't need to know the pros and cons of a
certain type of mortar - just do the job and do it so it gets me the
result I want!

My pitch revolves around the client's bottom line - ROI and profit. 
If web standards directly increase the ROI (as in the case of govt and
ecommerce) I'll push it.  If it's someone selling something, I'll push
the accessibility sub-set of web standards.  I'll talk about the
varying kinds of disabilities, ranging from people who wear  - or need
- glasses, to people with arthritis, to people with intellectual
disadvantages, to those who don't have access to modern computers and
browsers, through to those who can't see or hear at all... I find too
many people equate accessibility with making sure people using screen
readers can access a site whereas really it affects *far* more of the
general population than a lot of us are aware.  These are all clients'
potential customers - why turn them away?

Regarding charging - like anything, the more experienced you get the
faster you get so it's a bit silly to charge across a project on the
basis of time spent.  I charge according to value for money and won't
compete on price.  (I just got a job for a redesign where the original
site was done by a 16 year old kid for $300 and the client didn't see
why he should have to pay what was to him big bucks and in fact
firmly stated he didn't have it to spend... but my proposal evidently
convinced him and I didn't even mention web standards.  As someone
said, it's about pushing the right buttons for a given client.

Regarding charging for experience and skills - well, yes you do. 
That's your IP (Intellectual Property) and it's worth something! 
(Though of course just because you are a Java programmer it doesn't
mean you can charge Java programming rates for ordinary web design
work.)  But I think my clients are going to see evidence of the IP and
what they're paying for when I present my proposal.  I'm not going to
charge *extra* for my web standards knowledge as such.  In my view it
should be standard.  :-)  But my clients will pay for the overall
benefit to them, whatever that might be.

I do believe that most businesses care more about value for money than
price.  (There is *always* going to be someone to undercut you on the
price alone.)  We just have to give them what they want - make them
want to buy, instead of trying to sell them something!  If web
standards are a part of that, then by all means sell them for all
they're worth!  If not, no biggie - just do the job the best way you
know how - which is what the client will expect after your fantastic
pitch.  :-)

Vicki.  :-)




On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 23:01:09 -0800, Rick Faaberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On 11/25/04 7:00 PM Jixor - Stephen I [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out:
 
  To be honest I don't understand how building using standards could cost
  more unless you simply don't know what your doing. Its really as simple
  as that, there is no extra work involved in using standards, if anything
  its less work. Building using standards is a choice not an extra.
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