Re: [WSG] Asterisks in W3C spec

[Sigurd Magnusson]

Wow. Some serious bedtime reading. Cheers.
Siggy
- Original Message - 
From: russ - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Web Standards Group wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 8:35 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Asterisks in W3C spec


Here are some:
Joe Clark's serialised book (covers all three - title, alt and longdesc)
http://joeclark.org/book/sashay/serialization/Chapter06.html
Writing good ALT text (covers all three - title, alt and longdesc)
http://www.gawds.org/show.php?contentid=28
The alt and title attributes (covers alt and title but not longdesc, from
memory)
http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200412/the_alt_and_title_attributes/
Then there is always Laura's mega resource:
http://www.d.umn.edu/itss/support/Training/Online/webdesign/accessibility.ht
ml#alt
HTH
Russ

Finally, is there a commentary somewhere about the use of longdesc vs alt 
vs
title (e.g. on images, on images where they are the sole content of 
links,
etc). There seems to be a bit of information here and there, and 
obviously I
can use common sense, but was wondering if there was some high-calibre
writing out there, spelling out the different browser support and an 
overall
conclusion?
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[WSG] style attribute depreciated in xhtml 1.1?

[Alan Trick]

I just found you that the style attribute is depreciated in xhtml 1.1. 
Does this  mean that it will eventually be obolete? If so, what do they 
expect us to do for inline styles because it doesn't always make sense 
to have everything in an external style sheet.
Alan Trick
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Re: [WSG] style attribute depreciated in xhtml 1.1?

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

Alan Trick wrote:
I just found you that the style attribute is depreciated in xhtml 
1.1. Does this  mean that it will eventually be obolete? If so, what 
do they expect us to do for inline styles because it doesn't always 
make sense to have everything in an external style sheet.
Well, unless they deprecate this also:
style type=text/css
/*![CDATA[*/
@media screen {
.int01 {background-color: #def; clear: right;}
.int03 {margin-top: 15px;}
...
}
/*]]*/
/style
...I'll keep page-specific styles in the page head. Makes more sense no
matter what DTD I code in accordance to, since it's a real, compact,
stylesheet that follows the page.
Sidenote: I've observed some buggy behavior with inline-styles, as they
are sometimes ignored if I use a stylesheet switcher. This may cause
positioning-errors and alike, with no cross-browser predictability.
Styles in the head are working reliable though.
regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no
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Re: [WSG] style attribute depreciated in xhtml 1.1?

[XStandard]

Hi Alan,

I just found you that the style attribute is depreciated
in xhtml 1.1. Does this  mean that it will eventually be
obolete?
It depends on what you mean by obolete. Deprecated means that it's part of 
the spec but the construct is outdated and its use is strongly discouraged. The 
next version of XHTML is 2.0 which won't get wide acceptance for 5 to 10 years. 
It's in Working Draft status. In it, the style is not flagged deprecated 
but that can change. Here is what the spec says:

Note: use of the style attribute is strongly discouraged in favor of the style 
element and external style sheets. In addition, content developers are advised 
to avoid use of the style attribute on content intended for use on small 
devices, since those devices may not support the use of in-line styles.
Source: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-styleAttribute.html

If so, what do they expect us to do for inline
styles because it doesn't always make sense
to have everything in an external style sheet.
Can you provide some example of how you want to use inline formatting?

Regards,
-Vlad
http://xstandard.com




Alan Trick wrote:
 I just found you that the style attribute is depreciated in xhtml 1.1.
 Does this  mean that it will eventually be obolete? If so, what do they
 expect us to do for inline styles because it doesn't always make sense
 to have everything in an external style sheet.
 Alan Trick
 **
 The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
 **




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Re: [WSG] style attribute depreciated in xhtml 1.1?

[Alan Trick]

I'm implementing some BBtag-like things on my webste though, and it 
semes to make more sense to have something like [red] create a span 
style='color:#f00'/span instead of a span class='red'/span and 
have a whole bunch of unnecesary styles, and if I want to allow 
something like [span style='color:#123'], that is quite difficult to do 
via classes and external/internal css.
The only other place I've used it is when I want to randomly generate a 
background-image or something, but that probably better doen with 
internal css
Alan Trick

Vlad Alexander (XStandard) wrote:
Hi Alan,
 

I just found you that the style attribute is depreciated
in xhtml 1.1. Does this  mean that it will eventually be
obolete?
 

It depends on what you mean by obolete. Deprecated means that it's part of the spec but the 
construct is outdated and its use is strongly discouraged. The next version of XHTML is 2.0 which won't get 
wide acceptance for 5 to 10 years. It's in Working Draft status. In it, the style is not flagged 
deprecated but that can change. Here is what the spec says:
Note: use of the style attribute is strongly discouraged in favor of the style 
element and external style sheets. In addition, content developers are advised 
to avoid use of the style attribute on content intended for use on small 
devices, since those devices may not support the use of in-line styles.
Source: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-styleAttribute.html
 

If so, what do they expect us to do for inline
styles because it doesn't always make sense 
to have everything in an external style sheet.
 

Can you provide some example of how you want to use inline formatting?
Regards,
-Vlad
http://xstandard.com
Alan Trick wrote:
 

I just found you that the style attribute is depreciated in xhtml 1.1. 
Does this  mean that it will eventually be obolete? If so, what do they 
expect us to do for inline styles because it doesn't always make sense 
to have everything in an external style sheet.
Alan Trick
   

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Re: [WSG] style attribute depreciated in xhtml 1.1?

[Kornel Lesinski]

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 16:49:00 -, Alan Trick [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
wrote:

I'm implementing some BBtag-like things on my webste though, and it  
semes to make more sense to have something like [red] create a span  
style='color:#f00'/span instead of a span class='red'/span and  
have a whole bunch of unnecesary styles, and if I want to allow  
something like [span style='color:#123'], that is quite difficult to do  
via classes and external/internal css.
Note this similarity:
span class='red'
font color='red'
This kind of markup is deprecated since HTML4.
--
regards, Kornel Lesiski
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Re: [WSG] style attribute depreciated in xhtml 1.1?

[XStandard]

Hi Alan,

Both span class=red and span style=color:#f00 are bad. How about 
BBtags this:

[important]
[highlight]
[note]
[misc]

then you use this markup:

em class=important
em class=hightlight
..

Regards,
-Vlad
http://xstandard.com



Alan Trick wrote:
 I'm implementing some BBtag-like things on my webste though, and it
 semes to make more sense to have something like [red] create a span
 style='color:#f00'/span instead of a span class='red'/span and
 have a whole bunch of unnecesary styles, and if I want to allow
 something like [span style='color:#123'], that is quite difficult to do
 via classes and external/internal css.
 The only other place I've used it is when I want to randomly generate a
 background-image or something, but that probably better doen with
 internal css
 Alan Trick

 Vlad Alexander (XStandard) wrote:

 Hi Alan,



 I just found you that the style attribute is depreciated
 in xhtml 1.1. Does this  mean that it will eventually be
 obolete?


 It depends on what you mean by obolete. Deprecated means that it's
 part of the spec but the construct is outdated and its use is strongly
 discouraged. The next version of XHTML is 2.0 which won't get wide
 acceptance for 5 to 10 years. It's in Working Draft status. In it, the
 style is not flagged deprecated but that can change. Here is what
 the spec says:

 Note: use of the style attribute is strongly discouraged in favor of
 the style element and external style sheets. In addition, content
 developers are advised to avoid use of the style attribute on content
 intended for use on small devices, since those devices may not support
 the use of in-line styles.
 Source: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-styleAttribute.html



 If so, what do they expect us to do for inline
 styles because it doesn't always make sense to have everything in an
 external style sheet.


 Can you provide some example of how you want to use inline formatting?

 Regards,
 -Vlad
 http://xstandard.com


 Alan Trick wrote:


 I just found you that the style attribute is depreciated in xhtml
 1.1. Does this  mean that it will eventually be obolete? If so, what
 do they expect us to do for inline styles because it doesn't always
 make sense to have everything in an external style sheet.
 Alan Trick


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 The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
 **




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Re: [WSG] Asterisks in W3C spec

[Gloria Antonelli]

I tried Laura's link and it was not found. 
Do you have an updated link for her site?

Then there is always Laura's mega resource:http://www.d.umn.edu/itss/support/Training/Online/webdesign/accessibility.html#alt

Gloria AntonelliSigurd Magnusson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Wow. Some serious bedtime reading. Cheers.Siggy- Original Message - From: "russ - maxdesign" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: "Web Standards Group" Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 8:35 PMSubject: Re: [WSG] Asterisks in W3C spec Here are some: Joe Clark's serialised book (covers all three - title, alt and longdesc) http://joeclark.org/book/sashay/serialization/Chapter06.html Writing good ALT text (covers all three - title, alt and longdesc) http://www.gawds.org/show.php?contentid=28 The alt and title attributes (covers alt and title but not longdesc, from memory) http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200412/the_alt_and_title_attributes/ Then there is always Laura's mega resource:
 http://www.d.umn.edu/itss/support/Training/Online/webdesign/accessibility.ht ml#alt HTH Russ Finally, is there a commentary somewhere about the use of longdesc vs alt  vs title (e.g. on images, on images where they are the sole content of  links, etc). There seems to be a bit of information here and there, and  obviously I can use common sense, but was wondering if there was some high-calibre writing out there, spelling out the different browser support and an  overall conclusion? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list  getting help
 ** **The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list  getting help**
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Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! 

RE: [WSG] Asterisks in W3C spec

[Waswick, Dawn]

The 
link works if you make sure that the "ml#alt" part is added to the link (it 
seems to break right after ".ht")

dawn
-Original Message-From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of 
Gloria AntonelliSent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 12:26 
PMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] 
Asterisks in W3C spec

  I tried Laura's link and it was not found. 
  Do you have an updated link for her site?
  
  Then there is always Laura's mega resource:http://www.d.umn.edu/itss/support/Training/Online/webdesign/accessibility.html#alt
  
  Gloria AntonelliSigurd Magnusson 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Wow. 
Some serious bedtime reading. Cheers.Siggy- Original 
Message - From: "russ - maxdesign" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: 
"Web Standards Group" Sent: Tuesday, March 
15, 2005 8:35 PMSubject: Re: [WSG] Asterisks in W3C spec 
Here are some: Joe Clark's serialised book (covers all three 
- title, alt and longdesc) 
http://joeclark.org/book/sashay/serialization/Chapter06.html 
Writing good ALT text (covers all three - title, alt and longdesc) 
http://www.gawds.org/show.php?contentid=28 The alt and title 
attributes (covers alt and title but not longdesc, from 
memory) 
http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200412/the_alt_and_title_attributes/ 
Then there is always Laura's mega resource: 
http://www.d.umn.edu/itss/support/Training/Online/webdesign/accessibility.ht 
ml#alt HTH Russ Finally, 
is there a commentary somewhere about the use of longdesc vs alt 
 vs title (e.g. on images, on images where they are 
the sole content of  links, etc). There seems to be 
a bit of information here and there, and  obviously 
I can use common sense, but was wondering if there was some 
high-calibre writing out there, spelling out the different 
browser support and an  overall 
conclusion? 
** The 
discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See 
http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on 
posting to the list  getting help 
** 
**The 
discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See 
http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on 
posting to the list  getting 
help**
  
  
  Do you Yahoo!?Yahoo! Small Business - Try 
  our new resources site! 

Re: [WSG] Asterisks in W3C spec

[Richard Czeiger]

In answer to your question, Sigurd - the asterisk indicates that that
attribute is required for that elements (as opposed to optional).
For example, if you use the img you MUST include a SRC and an ALT
attribute for it to be valid.

Cheers  :o)
Richard


- Original Message -
From: Sigurd Magnusson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 6:10 PM
Subject: [WSG] Asterisks in W3C spec


I keep seeing asterisks in the W3C spec but cannot see a glossary anywhere.
As an example, with the img element in xhtml 1.1, the attributes 'src' and
'alt' are both marked with an asterisk. Why?

http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/abstract_modules.html#s_imagemodul
e

(I realise img is marked to be deprecated in xhtml2, but I feel adoption for
that will require new browsers to come out and gain market share, as the
object tag has a huge set of problems)

Finally, is there a commentary somewhere about the use of longdesc vs alt vs
title (e.g. on images, on images where they are the sole content of links,
etc). There seems to be a bit of information here and there, and obviously I
can use common sense, but was wondering if there was some high-calibre
writing out there, spelling out the different browser support and an overall
conclusion?

Siggy


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Re: [WSG] Browser [Firefox IE] Navbar issues

[Jenny Francois]

Thanks John!

.Cheers,
Jenny


On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:33:20 -0500, John D Wells [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Jenny-
 Welcome to the group! And welcome to the game of validation. . .
 
 Before attempting to fix your layout problems, ensure that both your
 XHTML and CSS validate by testing them here:
 
 (X)HTML: http://validator.w3.org/
 CSS: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/
 
 After having done that, see if anything changes (you have enough errors
 that it likely will make a difference). And then a word of advice that
 may seem counterintuitive at first: Code your pages FIRST to your most
 compliant browser on hand (Firefox), and then fix as necessary for IE
 and others. Reason is, you want to first be sure that you're using the
 rules correctly, so that you are effectively coding for
 forward-compatibility. Then apply hacks and patches as necessary to get
 older browsers to place nice, until one day they're obsolete and you
 simply can remove the hacks altogether. . .
 
 HTH,
 John
 
 
 On Mar 9, 2005, at 11:42 AM, Jenny Francois wrote:
 
  Hello All,
 
  I'm new to the group.  I'm having some coding issues on a site I'm
  creating.
 
  I'm using horizontal menus within a 2 column template.
 
  Here is the direct link to the page:
 
  http://www.aekituesday.com/interviews/index.html
 
  How can I get this to display correctly in both IE  Firefox?
 
  Also, I'm experiencing sidebar issues. In IE it looks great. The
  sidebar is in perfect place but in Firefox it's not.
 
  Any ideas?
 
  Thanks,
  Jenny
  ==
  Jenny Francois
  http://aekituesday.blogspot.com
  IM: aeki79
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IM: aeki79
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[WSG] IE 7.0 Details Begin to Leak

[Nick Lo]

Partner sources say Microsoft is wavering on the extent to which it 
plans to support CSS2 with IE 7.0. Developers have been clamoring for 
Microsoft to update its CSS support to support the latest W3C standards 
for years. But Microsoft is leaning toward adding some additional CSS2 
support to IE 7.0, but not embracing the standard in its entirety, 
partners say.

http://www.microsoft-watch.com/article2/0,1995,1776290,00.asp
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Re: [WSG] IE 7.0 Details Begin to Leak

[Jake Badger]

That article also says it will contain transparent Portable Network
Graphics (PNG) support, which is something I know I've been waiting
for.

On 16/3/2005, Nick Lo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Partner sources say Microsoft is wavering on the extent to which it
plans to support CSS2 with IE 7.0. Developers have been clamoring for
Microsoft to update its CSS support to support the latest W3C standards
for years. But Microsoft is leaning toward adding some additional CSS2
support to IE 7.0, but not embracing the standard in its entirety,
partners say.

http://www.microsoft-watch.com/article2/0,1995,1776290,00.asp

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[WSG] Css Floating Image

[M M]

I am having problems floating an image in a div cell using css.
I want to have the whole page centered and static width.  Then styling on 
the wrapper div, with the image floating so that text will line up next to 
it. Right now the problem is a gap under the image.

See the code below, its the whole page with css.
Thanks in advance.
MM
!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd;
htmlhead
titleCSS layout test/title
style type=text/css
body{text-align: center;}
#wrapper{
text-align: left;
border: 1px solid #00;
width: 700px;
}
#box{
float: left;
background-color: #FF;
border: 1px solid #3300FF;
}
#text{background-color: #00FF00;}
/style/headbody 
div id=wrapper
div id=box
img src=images/test.jpg 
/div
div id=textthis text should float to the right of the image/div
/div
/body/html
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Re: [WSG] Css Floating Image

[Jalenack]

Hi MM,

I tested your page in safari quickly...The image is floating
correctly. Is the image being taller than the text messing your
problem?

There are many techniques to clearing your floats so that they won't
overflow like that. The simplest of which:

applying overflow: auto to the #wrapper rule.

Here are some links:

http://www.sitepoint.com/blog-post-view?id=238086
http://www.positioniseverything.net/easyclearing.html

Hope this helps. If I'm getting at the wrong problem, write back with 
a screenshot link or something...

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 22:54:29 -0500, M M [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I am having problems floating an image in a div cell using css.
 I want to have the whole page centered and static width.  Then styling on
 the wrapper div, with the image floating so that text will line up next to
 it. Right now the problem is a gap under the image.
 
 See the code below, its the whole page with css.
 
 Thanks in advance.
 
 MM
 
 !DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN
 http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd;
 htmlhead
 titleCSS layout test/title
 style type=text/css
 
 body{text-align: center;}
 #wrapper{
 text-align: left;
 border: 1px solid #00;
 width: 700px;
 }
 #box{
 float: left;
 background-color: #FF;
 border: 1px solid #3300FF;
 }
 #text{background-color: #00FF00;}
 
 /style/headbody 
 div id=wrapper
 div id=box
 img src=images/test.jpg 
 /div
 div id=textthis text should float to the right of the image/div
 /div
 /body/html
 
 _
 Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
 http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
 
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-- 
Andrew Sutherland
Jalenack.com
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Re: [WSG] Css Floating Image

[diona kidd]

Looks appropriate in Firefox as well. What browser are you seeing the
issue with? 

Diona

On Tue, 2005-03-15 at 20:48 -0800, Jalenack wrote:
 Hi MM,
 
 I tested your page in safari quickly...The image is floating
 correctly. Is the image being taller than the text messing your
 problem?
 
 There are many techniques to clearing your floats so that they won't
 overflow like that. The simplest of which:
 
 applying overflow: auto to the #wrapper rule.
 
 Here are some links:
 
 http://www.sitepoint.com/blog-post-view?id=238086
 http://www.positioniseverything.net/easyclearing.html
 
 Hope this helps. If I'm getting at the wrong problem, write back with 
 a screenshot link or something...
 
 On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 22:54:29 -0500, M M [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I am having problems floating an image in a div cell using css.
  I want to have the whole page centered and static width.  Then styling on
  the wrapper div, with the image floating so that text will line up next to
  it. Right now the problem is a gap under the image.
  
  See the code below, its the whole page with css.
  
  Thanks in advance.
  
  MM
  
  !DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN
  http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd;
  htmlhead
  titleCSS layout test/title
  style type=text/css
  
  body{text-align: center;}
  #wrapper{
  text-align: left;
  border: 1px solid #00;
  width: 700px;
  }
  #box{
  float: left;
  background-color: #FF;
  border: 1px solid #3300FF;
  }
  #text{background-color: #00FF00;}
  
  /style/headbody 
  div id=wrapper
  div id=box
  img src=images/test.jpg 
  /div
  div id=textthis text should float to the right of the 
  image/div
  /div
  /body/html
  
  _
  Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
  http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
  
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Re: [WSG] IE 7.0 Details Begin to Leak

[Ryan Christie]

Let the rain of hellfire begin! Though in the past, all they do is weave 
more deceit and under-deliver on release. I read that MS decides to 
introduce more bugs into IE7, and fix none from IE6. Joy.

Nick Lo wrote:
Partner sources say Microsoft is wavering on the extent to which it 
plans to support CSS2 with IE 7.0. Developers have been clamoring for 
Microsoft to update its CSS support to support the latest W3C 
standards for years. But Microsoft is leaning toward adding some 
additional CSS2 support to IE 7.0, but not embracing the standard in 
its entirety, partners say.
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