Re: [WSG] Regarding foreign languages

2005-06-03 Thread Jan Brasna

Vaska, you¨re still mixing those:


I think you are mixing two things which should be separated.

The first problem is the language of the page (defined in the header)
The second problem is how to create a non-ascii character


He is right.

It is a tricky business because for a French typist I can use entities 
and change an é into eacute;


It's wise to use codepage that contain this character, or better UTF.


but with Chinese everything comes up unreadable (as you've mentioned)


Even when using Unicode?

There will be a situation where one page will have the header encoding 
in ZH and an input/text field as EN-US.  I'm pretty sure that the field 
itself won't establish the language parameters that go into the field - 
the operating system will.


No, the browser will. It will send the characters in the encoding 
(charset, not language!) of the page.


One thing I don't understand though, is at what point does the computer 
actually use the xml:lang attribute?  At the input (client-side)?  When 
it gets to the server/table (server-side)?  I can type any language I 
want into the textarea, but what comes out can vary...


The 'lang' attrib is mostly for screen readers, CSS language tools and 
some processing applications. It doesn't determine the way how 
characters are inputed/printed/transfered. That's a part for charset.


What, where, which formats do I use and stick with if the idea is to 
support just about any lanugage that's out there (theoretically)?


Some Unicode - I don't know how it works with Asian/Arabic/Hebrew - 
whether UTF8, 16 or 32, what about the Endians etc. ...


--
Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com
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Re: [WSG] Regarding foreign languages

2005-06-03 Thread Vaska . WSG

Vaska, you¨re still mixing those:


I think you are mixing two things which should be separated.

The first problem is the language of the page (defined in the header)
The second problem is how to create a non-ascii character


He is right.


I've already identified that I will be using utf-8.  And I've accepted 
use of xml:lang/lang: in both the header and on the individual form 
elements (as necessary) - what am I still mixing on this issue?  Am I 
missing something more obvious?


No, the browser will. It will send the characters in the encoding 
(charset, not language!) of the page.


Thanks, I understand what's going on with this now.  I was really just 
curious how it was dealt with - I don't believe it changes anything on 
the server-end (and didn't think it would).


You mention the use of Unicode...perhaps I'm way out there on this 
point but am I not allowed to assume that the user will be using 
unicode to input their data?  I know it's a web browser, but is there 
some way I can restrict their input to unicode (the page xml:lang that 
is)?  If they enter something else, it likely won't work.  Perhaps this 
is where I'm still 'mixing' things up?


v
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Re[4]: [WSG] Regarding foreign languages

2005-06-03 Thread Martin Heiden
Patrick!

Am Donnerstag, 2. Juni 2005 um 18:11:30 haben Sie geschrieben:

 I agree with you in all points but this one. Even in XHTML 1.0 the
 lang-Attribute is needed.

 At the risk of splitting very fine hairs even further: *needed* or
 *allowed* ? I'd tend to think the latter...

You are right! *needed* should not say mandatory. Maybe we should say
*allowed* and *recommended*?

Martin.

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[WSG] Making PDF and Word files accessible

2005-06-03 Thread Angela Galvin

Hello all,

I have the task of adding a bunch of PDF and Word files to a web site I 
work on, that currently conforms to WAI Priority 1 guidelines.


My first question is that if I convert the PDF files to HTML to make 
them more accessible, am I right in thinking that this is only half my 
job done? If the original file wasn't marked up correctly in the first 
place before being saved as PDF (with headings, etc) does this mean 
that its still not really accessible?


Secondly, with the Word documents, if there is an easier way to convert 
them to HTML? At the moment I am saving as HTML from Word, taking them 
into Dreamweaver and using 'Clean up Word HTML'. After that I use 'Find 
and replace' to strip out all font, span and attributes from p 
such as class and style. At which point I still have to mark up the 
document with proper headings, bulleted lists, etc. A little 
time-consuming and fiddly to say the least!


Am I doing this right or is there another way to make these files 
accessible? (and make my life easier, after all it is Friday :-) )


Angela


Angela Galvin

Worth Media
15-17 Middle Street
Brighton BN1 1AL
T: 01273 201149
F: 01273 710004

-

www.worthmedia.net



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Re: [WSG] Making PDF and Word files accessible

2005-06-03 Thread Mary Krieger

At 05:36 AM 6/3/2005, you wrote:
snip
Secondly, with the Word documents, if there is an easier way to convert 
them to HTML? At the moment I am saving as HTML from Word, taking them 
into Dreamweaver and using 'Clean up Word HTML'. After that I use 'Find 
and replace' to strip out all font, span and attributes from p such 
as class and style. At which point I still have to mark up the 
document with proper headings, bulleted lists, etc. A little 
time-consuming and fiddly to say the least!


Am I doing this right or is there another way to make these files 
accessible? (and make my life easier, after all it is Friday :-) )


Angela


Angela Galvin

Worth Media
15-17 Middle Street
Brighton BN1 1AL
T: 01273 201149
F: 01273 710004

-

www.worthmedia.net


I would skip the part where you save from Word into HTML. Why give yourself 
the grief?


If you copy and paste the text into the 'content' part of your standard 
page,  the line breaks will show you where the paragraph and headings are. 
I'm using Homesite so I just select and repeat the similar code ( first p, 
then h1, h2 etc) from one end of the document to the other.


Generally the only thing missing them is the the use of bold and italic 
within the text (not part of the heading structure) and any tables or lists 
within the text.


Validate to catch any stray weirdness and on to the next.

Perhaps not the most interesting type of web coding but listening to music 
of your taste, you can work up a good rhythm and code a whack of stuff 
relatively cleanly. Not a bad way to spend a Friday.


Mary Krieger
Winnipeg Manitoba Canada
http://www.mts.net/~mkrieger

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Re: [WSG] Making PDF and Word files accessible

2005-06-03 Thread designer

Angela Galvin wrote:

Hello all,

I have the task of adding a bunch of PDF and Word files to a web site I 
work on, that currently conforms to WAI Priority 1 guidelines.


My first question is that if I convert the PDF files to HTML to make 
them more accessible, am I right in thinking that this is only half my 
job done? If the original file wasn't marked up correctly in the first 
place before being saved as PDF (with headings, etc) does this mean that 
its still not really accessible?


Secondly, with the Word documents, if there is an easier way to convert 
them to HTML? At the moment I am saving as HTML from Word, taking them 
into Dreamweaver and using 'Clean up Word HTML'. After that I use 'Find 
and replace' to strip out all font, span and attributes from p 
such as class and style. At which point I still have to mark up the 
document with proper headings, bulleted lists, etc. A little 
time-consuming and fiddly to say the least!


Am I doing this right or is there another way to make these files 
accessible? (and make my life easier, after all it is Friday :-) )


Angela


Hi Angela,

No easy way, but the most reliable is to cut and paste from Word into 
the design view of Dreamweaver. Using the design view ensures that all 
the spacing is preserved and indeed, all the quotes etc are presented as 
the correct codes.


I didn't know this myself until recently, when someone on this list told 
me about it.


Hope this helps,


--
Bob McClelland
Cornwall (U.K.)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk
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Re: [WSG] Making PDF and Word files accessible

2005-06-03 Thread George S. Williams
On Fri, 2005-06-03 at 06:36, Angela Galvin wrote:

 
 Secondly, with the Word documents, if there is an easier way to convert 
 them to HTML? 

I use an open source program, antiword, to convert the Word docs to text
and then just add the necessary markup. (And, of course, edit out the
Word weirdness!) I've found this to be about 5 times faster than cut and
paste.

This is on a Linux box, but a Windows version of antiword seems to be
available at-

http://www.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de/~markus/antiword/

George

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RE: [WSG] Making PDF and Word files accessible

2005-06-03 Thread Jona Decker
Mary Krieger wrote:


If you copy and paste the text into the 'content' part of your standard
page,  the line breaks will show you where the paragraph and headings
are. 
I'm using Homesite so I just select and repeat the similar code ( first
p, then h1, h2 etc) from one end of the document to the other.


Depending on your version of MS Office, copying from displayed text may
bring in a bunch of inline styles. Yes, even pasting into a text
document! Ack!

So, I usually save Word files as plain text (no line breaks) first.

Next I use a good text editor with regular expression searching (I use
TextPad, there are many others) to wrap text chunks in paragraph tags
(e.g. ^is the beginning of a line, $ is the end, \n is carriage return,
etc...)

And last, I do a search and replace for weird apostrophes, quotes,
dashes, etc...


Generally the only thing missing them is the the use of bold and italic
within the text (not part of the heading structure) and any tables or
lists within the text.


If you save as text, you'll still have tabs and funky characters for
lists, which can also be regular expression searched and replaced with
the right tags. I actually create a batch action for each contributor
role that regularly sends me Word documents, which does most of the
standard searches one after another (and in the right order, which I can
screw up if it's been awhile) with the press of a hotkey. This allows me
to include foreign characters for certain contributors, em dashes for
others, different list designators for Macs vs. PCs, etc...

The newest Acrobat (7 Pro) also exports to plain text quite
effectively...not just RTF. It ostensibly offers an html w/css option,
but uses inline styles extensively, so the plain text route is more
efficient.

Jona Decker
Madison, WI USA

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[WSG] Re: Ten questions for Russ

2005-06-03 Thread Douglas Clifton
Ha! The shoe's on the other foot, eh Russ?

Good show Maxine,

~d
-- 
Douglas Clifton
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://loadaveragezero.com/
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Re: [WSG] Ten questions for Russ

2005-06-03 Thread Felix Miata
Douglas Clifton wrote:
 
 Ha! The shoe's on the other foot, eh Russ?

I can't believe the WCAG 1.0 Guidelines and Checkpoints for Flash link
in section 6 goes to a .swf file. o_O
-- 
Love does not demand its own way.1 Corinthians 13:5

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/

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Re: [WSG] Ten questions for Russ

2005-06-03 Thread russ - maxdesign
Completely true - the irony!
The original post is here:
http://www.markme.com/accessibility/archives/007344.cfm

Unfortunately, it too goes off to the same flash file.
Russ


 I can't believe the WCAG 1.0 Guidelines and Checkpoints for Flash link
 in section 6 goes to a .swf file. o_O

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Re: [WSG] Making PDF and Word files accessible

2005-06-03 Thread heretic
Hi there,

 My first question is that if I convert the PDF files to HTML to make
 them more accessible, am I right in thinking that this is only half my
 job done? If the original file wasn't marked up correctly in the first
 place before being saved as PDF (with headings, etc) does this mean
 that its still not really accessible?

As an extremely broad generalisation, yes - bad source gets bad
output. However every case is different so you'll have to check your
resulting (X)HTML to make sure it's standards compliant/accessible.
 
 Secondly, with the Word documents, if there is an easier way to convert
 them to HTML? At the moment I am saving as HTML from Word, taking them
 into Dreamweaver and using 'Clean up Word HTML'. 

Try http://textism.com/wordcleaner/  I've found it's pretty good,
esp. in conjunction with the DW tricks you mention.

If you have a large amount of this sort of work, you might like to
invest in http://cita.disability.uiuc.edu/software/office/

cheers

h

-- 
--- http://www.200ok.com.au/
--- The future has arrived; it's just not 
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson
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Re: [WSG] Ten questions for Russ

2005-06-03 Thread Ben Curtis


Russ,

One of the topics you discuss is your stance on the XHTML vs HTML 
debate. Your links support your stance -- I've read these before, and 
find them interesting and insightful, however they are trying to 
convince the reader of their point and I prefer a balanced argument. In 
looking for articles on the other side of the argument, I quickly found 
myself swamped in a mountain of words, some rational, some rabid. It 
would take days to wade through.


Do you know of a place or article that is a good roundup of the 
arguments, presented neutrally or balanced so the reader can assess 
his/her position and decide accordingly?


Right now I'm serving HTML (text/html Content-type headers), but as a 
coding practice we code as XHTML 1.0 Strict (for the cleanliness of the 
code, not for the XML properties). For the sake of validation as a 
coding tool, we need to put in the XHTML DOCTYPE, but I'd like to serve 
the HTML DOCTYPE in order to match our Content-type headers. Perhaps 
some automated scripty thing.


But that is neither here nor there. What I really want to do is weigh 
what I regard as our shop's personal coding standards against a roundup 
of these arguments to see where we stand.


Any pointers?

--

Ben Curtis : webwright
bivia : a personal web studio
http://www.bivia.com
v: (818) 507-6613



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Re: [WSG] Ten questions for Russ

2005-06-03 Thread XStandard
Russ wrote:
[quote]
At the risk of being burned at the stake, I think that unless you are willing 
to serve your pages as application/xhtml+xml with content negotiation, then you 
are probably better off staying with HTML 4.01 at this time.
[/quote]

Let me be the first to gather the kindling :-)

The whole MIME debate started with Ian Hickson. Let me summarize his argument: 
If you author bad XHTML and serve it up as HTML, you won't know that you have 
invalid XHTML and you will blame XHTML when you find out. Sorry, this is not a 
valid argument. This is fear mongering.

For more advocacy along the same line from Ian, have a read of this:

http://www.hixie.ch/advocacy/xslt

This article advocates the use of Python, Perl, JavaScript, C++ and a DOM 
parser to do transformations over XSLT. This clearly shows that Ian's knowledge 
on the subject is academic. Anyone familiar with the benefits of XSLT, will get 
a good laugh from this short article.

Regards,
-Vlad
http://xstandard.com
Standard-compliant XHTML WYSIWYG Editor

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Re: [WSG] Ten questions for Russ

2005-06-03 Thread russ - maxdesign

 Any pointers?

Hi Ben,

When interviewed, I was reluctant to express an opinion on this topic for
the very reasons you describe - the XHTML vs HTML argument quickly turns
from facts to opinion - similar to the font size and liquid vs fixed width
debates.

I completely agree with Vlad that Hixies article is not the best on this
subject. It is poorly written but does have historic value.

Probably the best articles to read would be those where information is
delivered from the W3C itself like:

HTML Versus XHTML
http://webstandards.org/learn/askw3c/oct2003.html

Serving XHTML with the Right MIME Type
http://webstandards.org/learn/askw3c/sep2003.html

Some links for the for opinion can be found here:
http://www.d.umn.edu/itss/support/Training/Online/webdesign/xml.html#xhtml

Good luck
Russ

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[WSG] alt tags and image captions

2005-06-03 Thread Hope Stewart
Having never seen/heard a screen reader in action, I am uncertain about how
to make some aspects of coding user-friendly for those using screen readers.
Specifically, I find my alt tags are almost always the same as my captions.
For example, if I insert an image of Joe Smith, my code might look something
like this:

pimg src=images/joe_smith.jpg alt=Joe Smith //p
p class=photocaptionJoe Smith/p

Does the screen reader read, Joe Smith Joe Smith? If so, I would have
thought that this repetition would get very annoying especially if there are
a lot of images on the page.

Could someone please enlighten me?

Hope Stewart

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[WSG] Character encoding

2005-06-03 Thread Joshua Street
I've always thought that characters should be marked up with appropriate
entity codes (for example, accented letters, etc.) in (X)HTML, rather
than simply pasted in and left for character encoding and the user agent
to take care of.  I've written a plugin for the WordPress weblog
software that does this for most characters
( http://www.joahua.com/blog/2005/06/04/curlyenc-03 - any discussion
regarding this email to me offlist or post as comments, please, because
it's software-related ), but I'm still not sure if it's required.  It's
just always felt dirty seeing certain characters not written in their
appropriate entity codes.

Could someone shed any light on this?  Are entity codes redundant, or
should we be using them where possible?

Kind Regards,
Joshua Street

base10solutions
Website:
http://www.base10solutions.com.au/
Phone: (02) 9898-0060  Fax: (02)
8572-6021
Mobile: 0425 808 469

Multimedia  Development  Agency



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Re: [WSG] Character encoding

2005-06-03 Thread XStandard
Hi Joshua,

If you are serving your content as Unicode (UTF-16 or UTF-8), then there is no 
need to use entities. If you do need to escape characters and you are using 
XHTML, then it's best to use their decimal values rather than entities. This 
makes your markup more easily parsable by XML technologies in your CMS (on the 
back-end). For example, instead of nbsp; use #160;

It's just always felt dirty seeing certain characters
not written in their appropriate entity codes.
Hmmm...that's a very English centric view of the Web ;-)

Regards,
-Vlad
http://xstandard.com
Standards-compliant XHTML WYSIWYG editor


Joshua Street wrote:
 I've always thought that characters should be marked up with appropriate
 entity codes (for example, accented letters, etc.) in (X)HTML, rather
 than simply pasted in and left for character encoding and the user agent
 to take care of.  I've written a plugin for the WordPress weblog
 software that does this for most characters
 ( http://www.joahua.com/blog/2005/06/04/curlyenc-03 - any discussion
 regarding this email to me offlist or post as comments, please, because
 it's software-related ), but I'm still not sure if it's required.  It's
 just always felt dirty seeing certain characters not written in their
 appropriate entity codes.

 Could someone shed any light on this?  Are entity codes redundant, or
 should we be using them where possible?

 Kind Regards,
 Joshua Street

 base10solutions
 Website:
 http://www.base10solutions.com.au/
 Phone: (02) 9898-0060  Fax: (02)
 8572-6021
 Mobile: 0425 808 469

 Multimedia  Development  Agency


 
 E-mails and any attachments sent from base10solutions are to be regarded
 as confidential. Please do not distribute or publish any of the contents
 of this e-mail without the sender’s consent. If you have received this
 e-mail in error, please notify the sender by replying to the e-mail, and
 then delete the message without making copies or using it in any way.

 Although base10solutions takes precautions to ensure that e-mail sent
 from our accounts are free of viruses, we encourage recipients to
 undertake their own virus scan on each e-mail before opening, as
 base10solutions accepts no responsibility for loss or damage caused by
 the contents of this e-mail.

 
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RE: [WSG] alt tags and image captions

2005-06-03 Thread Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media]
 -Original Message-
 From: Hope Stewart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: Saturday, 4 June 2005 12:40 PM
 To: Web Standards Group
 Subject: [WSG] alt tags and image captions
 
 Having never seen/heard a screen reader in action, I am 
 uncertain about how
 to make some aspects of coding user-friendly for those using 
 screen readers.

If you have got Windows XP or Windows 2000 you should have a screenreader
(Narrator) installed. In my case I find it under Programs  Accessories 
Accessiblity  Narrator. It's not as good as Jaws, but probably enough to
get an idea of how they work.

 Specifically, I find my alt tags are almost always the same 
 as my captions.
 For example, if I insert an image of Joe Smith, my code might 
 look something
 like this:
 
 pimg src=images/joe_smith.jpg alt=Joe Smith //p
 p class=photocaptionJoe Smith/p
 Does the screen reader read, Joe Smith Joe Smith? 

Yeah, they will repeat it. If I remember correctly they will read something
like Image Joe Smith, Joe Smith.

 If so, I 
 would have
 thought that this repetition would get very annoying 
 especially if there are
 a lot of images on the page.

I guess it would be a bit repetitive. With an alt tag you generally write
what can be seen in the image. Joe Smith doesn't really tell me whether
the image you have is a photo of Joe Smith, Joe Smith the cartoon character,
or a signature of Joe Smith. So to be a bit more specific you would probably
write into the alt tag Photo of Joe Smith. Depending on the purpose of the
photo, you might even have more detail in the alt tag: Photo of Joe Smith
at the last accounting conference.

Hope this helps.

Andreas Boehmer
User Experience Consultant

Phone: (03) 9386 8907
Mobile: (0411) 097 038
http://www.addictiveMedia.com.au
Consulting | Accessibility | Usability | Development


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Re: [WSG] Character encoding

2005-06-03 Thread Joshua Street
On Fri, 2005-06-03 at 23:42 -0400, Vlad Alexander wrote:
 Hi Joshua,
 
 If you are serving your content as Unicode (UTF-16 or UTF-8), then there is 
 no need to use entities. If you do need to escape characters and you are 
 using XHTML, then it's best to use their decimal values rather than entities. 
 This makes your markup more easily parsable by XML technologies in your CMS 
 (on the back-end). For example, instead of nbsp; use #160;

Ah, okay.  The plugin is using decimal values, but WordPress also uses
UTF-8 by default -- so perhaps it is redundant.

 It's just always felt dirty seeing certain characters
 not written in their appropriate entity codes.
 Hmmm...that's a very English centric view of the Web ;-)

Yeah, I thought that too, but couldn't think of another way to say it!
*blushes whilst wishing he were bilingual!*

Thanks :)

-- 
Joshua Street [EMAIL PROTECTED]
base10solutions
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[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org

2005-06-03 Thread Chamberlain, Clare Anne
I will be away on Tuesday 7 June.   If there is anything urgent, please call 
9388 4868 during office hours.  
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