Re: [WSG] Align text vertically in a division

2005-08-10 Thread Ingo Chao

Rachel Radford wrote:

Is there any other reliable way of mimicking the old-school valign for table
layouts? I realy don't want to use hacky stuff or any javascript stuff
cause already there is so much hacks just for IE!!!


Unfortunately, no, there is no way without massive hacking.

Bruno Fassino has discussed the problem, the technique is described here
http://www.brunildo.org/test/img_center.html

and the version for vertically centering a block is here
http://www.brunildo.org/test/vertmiddle.html

Sorry, can't provide a better alternative.

Ingo

--
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RE: [WSG] IE min-width problem

2005-08-10 Thread Ben Wrighton - StraightForward



http://www.svendtofte.com/code/max_width_in_ie/- is a good 
article on using IE expressionsto control text 
width.

-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Tania 
MorrisSent: Wednesday, 10 August 2005 4:20 p.m.To: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] IE min-width 
problem
Hi Folks,

I've been working on a site which has three columns 
which unfortunately need full height backgrounds, some have rounded corners 
and... well it's been tricky but it's all working ok... except that due to the 
fact that IE doesn't accept min-width, it becomes quick ugly in IE when the 
window is resized...

You can look at the beta site at http://dev.papercutmedia.com/perthjazz/


The CSS isn't to messy, but the XHTML does contain 
a few "spare" divs to enable the various background pics to get the "look" right 
( boy am I looking forward to CSS3 with multiple 
background images for single elements!) and I'm getting the feeling I've 
looked at it too long and am not seeingsomething obvious...

Any pearls of wisdom that can be offered would be 
graciously recieved.

Tania


[WSG] Flash and 100% height - retry and apologies

2005-08-10 Thread Brendan Smith
Firstly, not to excuse the format of my previous email, but 
I'm stuck with the Outlook Web Access mail client. Try as I might to get it to 
send text emails, this is as close as it gets. I apologise for any inconvenience 
it may have caused. I have to say it was dishearteningto see my request 
trashed before it was read, so I come to you all again humbled 
somewhat.

Thanks to Russ, Martin and David for their 
responses.

I have changed tact with my problem with 
the suggestions I received. I'm now trying an absolute layout and I think I'm 
closer, but IE is still nabbing me with it's insistence that the Flash 
application must be set to 100% of the viewport.

Viewing this URL in Firefox https://demo.hpa.com.au/OLM/test/apps/ies/need_help3.htm
gives me the result I need: 100px of space 
top and bottom of the "viewer app", 150px of space to the left of it. The viewer 
is snug up against the right of the window. Finally if the browser is resized, 
the spacing remains and the viewer app expands/contracts it's dimensions to fill 
the available area. This isn't the final layout intended, but is enough to 
figure the logic I require (I think!)

IE maintains the spacing on the top, left 
and bottom of the app and keeps it snug to the right, but it calculates the 
dimension of the viewer to equal 100% of the viewport height.

I hope it is not taboo, here is the 
relevant CSS and HTML:

style 
type="text/css"!--body, html {height: 
100%;width: 100%;margin: 0px;padding: 
0px;background-color:#99;}#viewer{position:absolute;top: 
100px;bottom: 100px;left: 150px;right: 
0px;background-color:#339900;}#imageviewer{height: 
100%;width: 100%;}
--/style/headbody 
div id="viewer"  object 
type="application/x-shockwave-flash" 
data="" 
id="imageviewer"  param 
name="movie" 
value="../../flashviewer/ImageViewer.swf?imageurl=https://demo.hpa.com.au/OLM/test/testxml/test1.xml" 
/  param name="quality" 
value="best" /  param 
name="menu" value="false" /  
/object /div /body

Thanks for your time,
Brendan.

RE: [WSG] Newbie Questions: East-Asian Character Sets and Marking-up Poetry

2005-08-10 Thread Kwok Ting Lee
Thanks for the link.  Thankfully, this being Chinese poetry, indentation isn't 
a problem: Chinese poetry is frightfully regular, as in lines of precisely 4 
characters (syllables) (with some abberations which may be attributed to its 
origins in folk poetry and song -- the syllables may have been sung swiftly to 
fit within one proper beat), 5 characters, and 7 characters; and no weird 
indentations like we encounter in English poetry.  I haven't examined the 
entire corpus, so I may be missing some of the more esoteric forms, but that's 
my general observation of around 80 or so poems from varying periods.  
Certainly that's the types of poetry that I'm planning on writing about...  

I was more concerned with whether to use a blockquote, because this isn't my 
work: I'm quoting someone else's translations and the original is also not 
mine, they being written around 1400 years ago.  I've decided, after some 
thought, that semantically a blockquote, to indicate that this is a quotation 
from The Book of Odes, or the 300 Tang Dynasty Poems, seems to work best.  The 
dl version was just a bit of a thought, because it might allow me some 
flexibility if in the future I put up some examples of English poetry I like, 
but now I'm convinced that it isn't at all semantic.  

Also, how best to display the Chinese version without delivering odd garbage 
characters to people without Chinese fonts installed on their system.  I'm 
leaning towards putting the pure English version on the blog entry, with a link 
to the Chinese version for those people who'd like to look at the original.

Thanks again.

Kwok Ting


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[WSG] Sliced Image Dilema

2005-08-10 Thread Jeff D. Reid



Can anyone here please post urls to some reading 
regarding the use of sliced images in building a website vs using CSS 
instead. Kind of a "pros and cons" type of paper.

Thanks

Jeff D. ReidMIS 
DepartmentDavitt-Hanser Music CompanyCincinnati, OHhttp://www.bcrich.comhttp://www.kustom.comhttp://www.olpguitars.comOwnerROMDevCincinnati, 
OHhttp://www.romdev.comhttp://www.patandjeff.com"A 
computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history 
- with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila." -Mitch Ratliffe- 



RE: [WSG] bi-lingual page?

2005-08-10 Thread patboens
Hi,

This is stuff we're pretty much used to deal with on a daily basis, here in 
Belgium. We have 3 national languages : Dutch, German, and French.

Not only do we do this on websites but also in regular software in which 
dynamic switching between languages should be possible, or printing in French 
while the interface is displayed in Dutch.

Here you were talking about displaying the content simultaneously in Englisg 
and German. This is definitely easier to manage than dynamic language switching.

The way I used to deal with this issue was to store all my content in a 
database and extract the text from one field or another (msg_fr, msg_de, or 
msg_en) based on the current language of the user. You can also achieve the 
same thing via external text files that you include in your main page (for 
example you have a page called mypage.php ... and this would include the 
content of mypage.php.de.txt if German is what you need or mypage.php.en.txt if 
English is required.

The language of the user is usually stored in a cookie and you should apply a 
default language to a page.

When you display the information, please mark your paragraphs with the 
appropriate lang attribute: either p xml:lang=de.../p (XHTML 1.1) or p 
lang=de (HTML 1.0). Please notice that your main page should be marked with 
a language attribute too :

html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml; xml:lang=en (XHTML 1.1)

or

html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml; xml:lang=en lang=en (XHTML 1.0)

Mark the paragraphs with their language attribute only if they differ from the 
default language of the page.

You can easily decide to hide text in a certain language via CSS: *[lang=en] 
{ display:none }. But this will NOT work with IE unfortunately.

By using the lang attribute on your paragraphs, you will ease the pain of the 
search engines.

If you want to implement dynamic language switching, you will have to implement 
a mechanism such as a link to a page that will update the cookie of the user: 
changelang.php?lang=en or changelang.php?lang=de. What thsi page does is very 
simple : it updates the cookie of the user and then gets back to the HTTP 
referrer (the page we're coming from so that it gets redisplayed). However, 
this can create some accessibility problems because it breaks the back 
sequence. Also, there may be some issues to solve with caching.


Hope this helps

Pat


-Original Message-
hi all

this is the first time I've done anything like this but I'm wondering what it 
takes to display two languages (and therefore two charsets) on the same page? - 
English and German

the content will be a side-by-side translation of each language

thanx
barry.b

PS: no doubt I'll have more questions later but I'm starting from the display 
and working backwards  to the content storage (ensuring the database can 
support unicode, etc) and then the content capture (a form in either English 
and German)
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RE: [WSG] bi-lingual page?

2005-08-10 Thread Patrick Lauke
 patboens

 You can easily decide to hide text in a certain language via 
 CSS: *[lang=en] { display:none }. But this will NOT work 
 with IE unfortunately.

Although, when CSS is off (or when using older screen readers which
do actually read out things hidden via display:none), the page
will look funky.

Patrick
__
Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
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Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
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Re: [WSG] Flash and 100% height - retry and apologies

2005-08-10 Thread Martin Heiden
Brendan,

Am Mittwoch, 10. August 2005 um 12:41:53 haben Sie geschrieben:

 I have changed tact with my problem with the suggestions I
 received. I'm now trying an absolute layout and I think I'm closer,
 but IE is still nabbing me with it's insistence that the Flash
 application must be set to 100% of the viewport.

Calculate and assign the height - and if you need to the width too -
of the container div using a expression and some JavaScript. Feed it
to IE by using conditional comments.

Martin.

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[WSG] footer at bottom of page

2005-08-10 Thread Bruce Gilbert
I was hoping someone could look at this page

http://www.wealthdevelopmentmortgage.com/Bruce/Company.htm

and help me with getting the footer at the absolute bottom of the
page. Right now, as I look at in in FF PC, there is some of the body
which shows below it. The body is green and the footer is white.

the CSS is at : http://www.wealthdevelopmentmortgage.com/Bruce/WDM.css

thx!
-- 
::Bruce::
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Re: [WSG] footer at bottom of page

2005-08-10 Thread bit
hey,

i would try setting all body-margins explicit, so i mean the 0-margins too,
to avoid the different browser-default-settings for the body-margin.
maybe u'll have to set the top-  bottom-margins for the main container too.

/*global CSS for Wealth Development Mortgage*/body {	margin: 2em 0 0 0;   /* top right bottom left */	padding: 0;	color: #333;
	font: 76%/1.4em san ... }
:) bit
2005/8/10, Bruce Gilbert [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
I was hoping someone could look at this pagehttp://www.wealthdevelopmentmortgage.com/Bruce/Company.htmand help me with getting the footer at the absolute bottom of the
page. Right now, as I look at in in FF PC, there is some of the bodywhich shows below it. The body is green and the footer is white.the CSS is at : 
http://www.wealthdevelopmentmortgage.com/Bruce/WDM.cssthx!--::Bruce::**The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/
 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list  getting help**
-- Software is like Sex - it's better when it's free ... (Linus Torvalds)


Re: [WSG] Sliced Image Dilema

2005-08-10 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Jeff D. Reid wrote:
Can anyone here please post urls to some reading regarding the use of 
sliced images in building a website vs using CSS instead.  Kind of a 
pros and cons type of paper.


The pros are probably well covered in this 
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/sprites/ (although the markup there 
may need some additional work to make it nicely accessible, like proper 
text in those links).
Only cons I can think of right now are the usual images off, CSS on or 
the lack of any visuals when CSS is off.


--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
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Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
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Re: [WSG] Sliced Image Dilema

2005-08-10 Thread Carl Reynolds

Jeff D. Reid wrote:

Can anyone here please post urls to some reading regarding the use of 
sliced images in building a website vs using CSS instead.  Kind of a 
pros and cons type of paper.
 


I find your question a little confusing. The use of sliced images and 
CSS are not mutually exclusive. As a matter of fact, ImageReady has an 
option to create a layout for a sliced image using CSS. The use of 
sliced images is not common these days, because people have found other 
ways of creating layouts, but you can use sliced images with layouts 
very effectively using CSS for the image placement.


What are you trying to do that would require you to use one or the other?



Carl.



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Re: [WSG] Sliced Image Dilema

2005-08-10 Thread Thierry Koblentz
Jeff D. Reid wrote:
 Can anyone here please post urls to some reading regarding the use of
 sliced images in building a website vs using CSS instead.  Kind of a
 pros and cons type of paper.

I'm not sure I understand your question. Is it about tables used to hold
sliced images, like some Graphics program create?

Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com

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Re: [WSG] Sliced Image Dilema

2005-08-10 Thread sam sherlock




I think your question should be rephrazed a little

table based sliced image html (as seen in david seaguls book Killer
Websites)

Vs

Webstandard 'Tableless' CSS design

table based sliced image layout

pros
    easy to produce consistant layout
    may even use images instead of text (at the expense of accessibilty)

cons (too many to list)
    inaccessiable
    large file sizes (hence longer to download, greater cost of
ownership etc)
    ...

Webstandard 'Tableless' CSS design
   
pros (too many to list)
    seach engines crawl the site and index information more
appropriately
    greater file economy (elements can be reused, many elements can be
removed)
    seperation of style and content (makes managing the site really
simple.  Really, really simple)
    present the same page of mark up to various devices (eg Desktops,
handhelds, phones, PDA)
    ...

cons
    older defunked browsers on anceint machines display unformatted
information (even this has its advantages)
    requires a little more attension in production stages (this depend
on who elaborate the design is)

atb  Sam



Jeff D. Reid wrote:

  Can anyone here please post urls to some reading regarding the use of sliced 
images in building a website vs using CSS instead.  Kind of a "pros and cons" 
type of paper.
 
Thanks
 
Jeff D. Reid
 
MIS Department
Davitt-Hanser Music Company
Cincinnati, OH
 
http://www.bcrich.com
http://www.kustom.com
http://www.olpguitars.com
 
Owner
ROMDev
Cincinnati, OH
 
http://www.romdev.com
http://www.patandjeff.com
 
"A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human 
history - with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila." -Mitch Ratliffe-
  







[WSG] No Preload Rollover Issue

2005-08-10 Thread Chris Kennon

Hi,

At the following url:
(http://ckimedia.com/bushido_fall/index.htm)

 there's trouble with the no-preloader rollovers, the  a state is  
fine except hiding the over state, also having issues getting the  
a:hover state into the same position. I've looked over several  
tutorials, but am still stuck at this point.


Thanks in advance,
C


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Re: [WSG] No Preload Rollover Issue

2005-08-10 Thread Chris Kennon
They don't line-up in safari 2.0 either I having issues with hiding  
the :hover state.

On Aug 10, 2005, at 1:58 PM, Kenny Graham wrote:

Not sure exactly what you're wanting it to do.  If you want it to  
hide the images until you move the mouse over them, then it works  
in decent browsers, but they don't line up in IE.  Is that the  
problem you're talking about?


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Re: [WSG] footer at bottom of page

2005-08-10 Thread Terrence Wood

http://solardreamstudios.com/learn/css/footerstick/

On 11 Aug 2005, at 3:22 AM, Bruce Gilbert wrote:

help me with getting the footer at the absolute bottom of the
page.


kind regards
Terrence Wood.

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Re: [WSG] No Preload Rollover Issue[solved]

2005-08-10 Thread Chris Kennon

Hi,

Step away for lunch, upon returning, this solution seems to have  
worked, is this a cross-platform solution?



C
On Aug 10, 2005, at 2:14 PM, Chris Kennon wrote:

They don't line-up in safari 2.0 either I having issues with hiding  
the :hover state.

On Aug 10, 2005, at 1:58 PM, Kenny Graham wrote:


Not sure exactly what you're wanting it to do.  If you want it to  
hide the images until you move the mouse over them, then it works  
in decent browsers, but they don't line up in IE.  Is that the  
problem you're talking about?




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[WSG] Accessibility articles for those interested

2005-08-10 Thread SunUp
Hi folks,

As an information professional I read a lot of for librarians
publications. The current issue of Ariadne (http://www.ariadne.ac.uk/)
has several articles that might be of interest to some in this group:

Involving Users in the Development of a Web Accessibility Tool
http://www.ariadne.ac.uk/issue44/craven/
  how the EC-funded European Internet Accessibility Observatory
Project is involving users in the development of a Web accessibility
checking and monitoring tool.

Web Accessibility Revealed: The Museums, Libraries and Archives Council Audit
http://www.ariadne.ac.uk/issue44/petrie-weisen/
... a comprehensive Web accessibility audit involving extensive user
testing as well as automatic testing of Web sites.

Towards a Pragmatic Framework for Accessible e-Learning
http://www.ariadne.ac.uk/issue44/phipps/
...while recognising the importance of accessibility in e-learning
resources, query the universal applicability of the Web Accessibility
Initiative's guidelines and describe a pragmatic framework which
provides a broader context for their use.

Evaluating Web Sites for Accessibility with Firefox
http://www.ariadne.ac.uk/issue44/lauke/
Patrick Lauke outlines how Mozilla Firefox can be used in conjunction
with the Web Developer Toolbar to carry out a preliminary
accessibility review.

Apologies to those who already know of this publication or these
articles, but for those who don't or are not involved in library
land-type publications, it might be a useful resource to check
sometimes.

Regards,
sunny.
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Re: [WSG] Sliced Image Dilema

2005-08-10 Thread Jeff D. Reid



Yes this is what I was searching for in a 
nutshell. I have been researching pros and cons of using an image created 
for print as a web page. I am really striving towards revamping all our 
brand sites to meet web standards and accessibility issues.

Biggest hurdle is working with the files I am sent 
to build from and to try and make something similar in style 
sheets.

Thanks to all who replied...

Jeff

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  sam 
  sherlock 
  To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
  Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 4:36 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [WSG] Sliced Image 
  Dilema
  I think your question should be rephrazed a littletable 
  based sliced image html (as seen in david seaguls book Killer 
  Websites)VsWebstandard 'Tableless' CSS designtable 
  based sliced image layoutpros easy to produce 
  consistant layout may even use images instead of text 
  (at the expense of accessibilty)cons (too many to 
  list) inaccessiable large file 
  sizes (hence longer to download, greater cost of ownership 
  etc) ...Webstandard 'Tableless' CSS 
  design pros (too many to list) seach 
  engines crawl the site and index information more 
  appropriately greater file economy (elements can be 
  reused, many elements can be removed) seperation of 
  style and content (makes managing the site really simple. Really, really 
  simple) present the same page of mark up to various 
  devices (eg Desktops, handhelds, phones, PDA) 
  ...cons older defunked browsers on anceint 
  machines display unformatted information (even this has its 
  advantages) requires a little more attension in 
  production stages (this depend on who elaborate the design is)atb  
  SamJeff D. Reid wrote: 
  Can anyone here please post urls to some reading regarding the use of sliced 
images in building a website vs using CSS instead.  Kind of a "pros and cons" 
type of paper.
 
Thanks
 
Jeff D. Reid
 
MIS Department
Davitt-Hanser Music Company
Cincinnati, OH
 
http://www.bcrich.com
http://www.kustom.com
http://www.olpguitars.com
 
Owner
ROMDev
Cincinnati, OH
 
http://www.romdev.com
http://www.patandjeff.com
 
"A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human 
history - with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila." -Mitch Ratliffe-
  
  


[WSG] Sydney WSG Meeting - Now Tuesday 30 August

2005-08-10 Thread Peter Firminger
Rather than organise two events in a week and have Lisa Herrod do her 
presentation twice, the September Sydney WSG meeting has been combined with 
the Web Essentials Free Briefing so it is now to be held on TUESDAY 30 August 
in the theatre at the Museum. Also note the earlier start time of 6:00pm for 
6:30pm.

Please see http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/event37.cfm

The upside is that there will be more in the presentations with the addition 
of the ever popular David Woodbridge and Robert Spriggs of the Royal Blind 
Society, the significantly better food and drinks are free, and you have a 
chance to win a free ticket to WE05!

RSVP is essential - [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Regards,

Peter Firminger


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Re: [WSG] IE min-width problem

2005-08-10 Thread David Hucklesby
On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 12:20:27 +0800, Tania Morris wrote:

 ...
 except that due to the fact that IE doesn't accept min-width, it
 becomes quick ugly in IE when the window is resized...


Tania, you may also like to look at Stu Nicholls's CSS-only method
of enforcing min-width. It seems to be cross-browser, with versions
for both quirks and standards mode:

   http://www.stunicholls.myby.co.uk/boxes/minwidth.html 

Cordially,
David
--
David Hucklesby, on 8/10/2005
http://www.hucklesby.com/
--


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