[WSG] 100% width table inside a DIV

2005-08-17 Thread Miles Tillinger
Hi,

Consider the following example:

http://www.streetdaddy.com/temp/index.html
http://www.streetdaddy.com/temp/index.css

I am developing a site based around this structure, however something in
the complicated CSS of my site is causing it to not behave the same as
this simple example.  The basic problem is that IE5+ is calculating
percentage widths based on the viewport rather than its parent element,
so the 100% width table goes off screen and the floated inner-columns
don't fit next to each other .  I have tried and tried to work out why
this is happening, to no avail...  Can anyone fill me in on the nuances
of this annoying problem?  Will I need to employ some browser specific
hacks?

The site im developing is slightly sensitive but if needed I can post up
the HTML and CSS for it...

Cheers,

Miles.
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RE: [WSG] html design - best practices

2005-08-17 Thread Edward Clarke
You are correct, it hasn't been 'officially' deprecated but as visual tags
and not logical ones; CSS offers a better long term solution.

http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050527/elements.html seems to agree.

Regarding books, if you carry extra [per book] information in the context of
the book title then a definition list would suit your needs. CITE would
certainly play a part within the list.



b is not deprecated, it just has no semantic value and in the fight  
to get people to markup their content semantically instead of  
visually, b and i became clear targets. Unfortunately, this means  
that many people think they should use strong and em when they  
really should use b and i. It's similar to the people who bend  
over backwards in order to put tabular data in some sort of floating  
list construct, just because they think that CSS-styled markup should  
not have the table tag.


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RE: [WSG] 100% width table inside a DIV [SOLVED]

2005-08-17 Thread Miles Tillinger
SOLVED ... I think!

After reading some recenet articles at positioniseverything.net I
discovered that one method of fixing the IE bug is to use the
double-wrapper method:
http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer/percentages.html (down the
page)

Not elegant, but works for me in IE5+.

The root cause is that I'm using a fluid 3 column layout in which the
centre div does not have a fixed width.  Setting a relative width on the
centre div also caused problems.  So I have another div around the table
so it can use it as the parent element:

div style=width:100%;
table ... /table
/div

So I can now have the table width set to 100% in CSS without causing any
problems.  I assume I could also set the table width inline but since
that sucks I haven't bothered to confirm it...

If there's a better way to do it I'd love to hear about it, but for now
it might just help me meet my deadline!

Regards,

Miles.
 

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Miles Tillinger
 Sent: Wednesday, 17 August 2005 3:27 PM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: [WSG] 100% width table inside a DIV
 
 Hi,
 
 Consider the following example:
 
 http://www.streetdaddy.com/temp/index.html
 http://www.streetdaddy.com/temp/index.css
 
 I am developing a site based around this structure, however 
 something in the complicated CSS of my site is causing it to 
 not behave the same as this simple example.  The basic 
 problem is that IE5+ is calculating percentage widths based 
 on the viewport rather than its parent element, so the 100% 
 width table goes off screen and the floated inner-columns 
 don't fit next to each other .  I have tried and tried to 
 work out why this is happening, to no avail...  Can anyone 
 fill me in on the nuances of this annoying problem?  Will I 
 need to employ some browser specific hacks?
 
 The site im developing is slightly sensitive but if needed I 
 can post up the HTML and CSS for it...
 
 Cheers,
 
 Miles.
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Re: [WSG] attribute selectors question

2005-08-17 Thread Anders Ringqvist

Thierry Koblentz wrote:


Drake, Ted C.  wrote:


Hi All

I have a quick question. I don't seem to be running on all cylinders
and I can't remember how to write the css that would look for a link
that has .pdf in the href.
A [href???.pdf]...



If you use type=application/pdf in your anchor, I think you can go with:
A[type=application/pdf]

Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com


Which is considered much better then looking for file prefix as it don´t 
have to be 'pdf'. As I say in the thread 'accessibility - opening new 
windows philosophy' you could have a CGI/PHP/ASP/WHatever script 
generate PDFs for you. Then the file prefix solution will crack. Of 
course, this kind of 'advanced' CSS will only work in modern browsers, 
but that you already know I guess ;-)


Regards,
/Anders
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RE: [WSG] Help with navigation

2005-08-17 Thread Craig Rippon
Don't forget to change the spelling of   Cross cutltural awareness

Craig Rippon
Brisbane, Australia

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, 17 August 2005 10:50 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Help with navigation

Hi

The subnav in my site:
http://learnline.cdu.edu.au/wip/tog/background/introduction.html

should look like this:

http://learnline.cdu.edu.au/wip/tog/navtest.html.

but I cannot get it to work.. :(  - and I can't figure out why.. :(

Any help is much appreciated.

Thanks
Helen

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Re: [WSG] Irrelevant properties

2005-08-17 Thread Jan Brasna

Hey mate :)


Howdy.


While it is valid, applying innapproriate properties to elements is
habit worth avoiding :)


Eh, yes, this was just a quick example I noticed when gluing together 
two definitions, so I was just curious - I've never thought about a 
similar issue. So I've already split that, but I was pretty interested 
in it - how it would behave, how kosher it is etc.


--
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RE: [WSG] html design - best practices

2005-08-17 Thread Julie Romanowski
On Aug 16, 2005, at 9:07 PM, Ben Curtis wrote:

That's a very curious thing for the W3C to publish. I am not aware of
any HTML standard in which b and i are deprecated. Can anyone cite
such a declaration?

They are included in XHTML 1.1 (Presentation Module) 
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/ 
abstract_modules.html#s_presentationmodule

They were not deprecated in XHTML 1.1:
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/changes.html#a_changes

As I understand it, nothing was deprecated in XHTML 1.0; in fact, they
don't define the term for possible use:
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#defs

HTML 4.01 didn't deprecate anything; it only clarified HTML 4.0. b and
i are not deprecated in 4.0:
http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/appendix/changes.html#h-A.3.1.2


If the W3C misspoke, or if they are indeed deprecated but not listed
as such in the common specs... well, it's no wonder such rumors
persist!


Please look at the date of each document. The document listing the items
as deprecated is the most recent.

HTML 4.01 Specification http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/cover.html#minitoc
W3C Recommendation 24 December 1999

XHTML(tm) 1.0 The Extensible HyperText Markup Language (Second Edition)
A Reformulation of HTML 4 in XML 1.0 http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#defs
W3C Recommendation 26 January 2000, revised 1 August 2002

Modularization of XHTML(tm) 
W3C Recommendation 10 April 2001
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/

XHTML(tm) 1.1 - Module-based XHTML
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/Overview.html#toc
W3C Recommendation 31 May 2001

HTML Techniques for WCAG 2.0 http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-HTML-TECHS/
W3C Working Draft 30 June 2005 (includes the information regarding
deprecated b and i tags)


If the W3C misspoke... Do you really believe that the W3C misspoke
because they have a working draft with change/updates to the current
HTML/XHTML recommendations? 
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[WSG] achieve 95% height with empty div?

2005-08-17 Thread kvnmcwebn

hello,

I
how can i get this div to scale to 95% of 
the window  height without filling
it with (invisible) content.



div.logo {
background: url(../LOGO.gif) 
bottom right no-repeat;
height:95%; margin: auto 0 0 0;
}




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Re: [WSG] achieve 95% height with empty div?

2005-08-17 Thread Brian Cummiskey

kvnmcwebn wrote:

hello,

I
how can i get this div to scale to 95% of 
the window  height without filling

it with (invisible) content.



div.logo {
background: url(../LOGO.gif) 
bottom right no-repeat;

height:95%; margin: auto 0 0 0;
}


This doesn't work, because it has no idea what 95% of nothing is.
you need to specify the parent element to be 100%.  in this case,

body { height: 100%; }

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RE: [WSG] achieve 95% height with empty div?

2005-08-17 Thread kvnmcwebn

wow..i had no idea...
I had assumed that any height or width declaration 
would be 100% of the browser window by default..
thanks,




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[WSG] Request for comments on a website.

2005-08-17 Thread Stephen Francis Johnson
Hi all, I have been a lurker on this list for a short while. I have a 
request regarding a web site that I have been working on. The site can 
be found at:


http://www.townguidebooks.bkecreative.co.uk/

I am looking for general comments regarding this site, its functionality 
and usability. If there are any glaring issues that can be seen at a 
glance,or any comments that arise from a quick look at the site design, 
I would very much appreciate hearing them. Thanks in advanced to any takers.


Regards
Stephen Johnson
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Re: [WSG] Request for comments on a website.

2005-08-17 Thread David Laakso

Stephen Francis Johnson wrote:

Hi all, I have been a lurker on this list for a short while. I have a 
request regarding a web site that I have been working on. The site can 
be found at:

http://www.townguidebooks.bkecreative.co.uk/
Stephen Johnson

Nice job Stephen. Looks and works well in XP_SP2 at 1280 and 800 in 
IE/Moz/DeerPark/Opera. The fonts, particularly the navigation, is 
smaller than my preference, but otherwise fine-- and the fonts scale 
well. Other than that there is no text for the logo, it is okay in IE 
accessibility mode. I get short page shift going to and from your home 
page, try adding:

html {  height: 100%;   margin-bottom: 1px;}
Source:
http://www.hicksdesign.co.uk/journal/forcing-scrollbars-now-even-better
Credits to Patrick H. Lauke.
FWIW: There's minor error preventing validation of the css.
Best,
David




.




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Re: [WSG] Need recomendations for CMS system

2005-08-17 Thread Matt Hampel
I'll second the Textpattern reccomendation. It's free, and the
learning curve is very reasonable. It's easy for complete beginners to
use the system. And it cuts development time by a siginifigant ammount
because it uses a logical, non-constraining template system.

Matt

On 8/16/05, morten fjellman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  What kind of scale project are you looking at? Small site, large site,
  large enterprise...?
 
 The system will be used for all kinds of sites, but mostly for
 small/medium businesses. Most of my clients want to update their site
 themselves, but I don't want to give them the oppurtunity of messing
 up my code/mark-up. So first and formost the system need to spit out
 divs instead of tables, and the text-editor needs to be
 xhtml-complient.
 
 Thanks
 Fjellman
 
 On 8/16/05, heretic [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   I am looking for a CMS system that will produce code/mark-up that
   follows web standards. A lot of systems spits out tables and weird
   tags that doesn't validate. I'm mostly interested in freeware, but if
   I need to buy one to get such a system then that's fine too. I have
   been searching the net for awhile, but I'm not sure that I will
   recognize the best system even if I find it.
 
  What kind of scale project are you looking at? Small site, large site,
  large enterprise...?
 
  h
 
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  --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson
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RE: [WSG] Request for comments on a website.

2005-08-17 Thread Peter Goddard
Stephen

Nice design, and great work. Is the curve at the bottom of the page parallel 
with the curve on the banner? It looks slightly out to me but it could just be 
my eyesight! Lol

Always pleasing to see good UK design.

Well done!

Peter 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stephen Francis 
Johnson
Sent: 17 August 2005 15:32
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Request for comments on a website.

Hi all, I have been a lurker on this list for a short while. I have a request 
regarding a web site that I have been working on. The site can be found at:

http://www.townguidebooks.bkecreative.co.uk/

I am looking for general comments regarding this site, its functionality and 
usability. If there are any glaring issues that can be seen at a glance,or any 
comments that arise from a quick look at the site design, I would very much 
appreciate hearing them. Thanks in advanced to any takers.

Regards
Stephen Johnson
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Re: [WSG] Request for comments on a website.

2005-08-17 Thread Thierry Koblentz
Stephen Francis Johnson wrote:
 Hi all, I have been a lurker on this list for a short while. I have a
 request regarding a web site that I have been working on. The site can
 be found at:

 http://www.townguidebooks.bkecreative.co.uk/

The CSS validator returns something:
http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?profile=css2warning=2uri=http%3A//www.townguidebooks.bkecreative.co.uk/

You can force the scrollbar on shorter page to avoid a lateral jump.
I'd style the links in the menu to match the current page
With images disabled I lose your headings...
The text looks black, I'd go with a dark blue.

Very nice and clean, scales well. Good job.

Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com


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RE: [WSG] Request for comments on a website.

2005-08-17 Thread Patrick Lauke
 Thierry Koblentz

 You can force the scrollbar on shorter page to avoid a
 lateral jump.

With something like my pixel pushing technique
http://www.splintered.co.uk/experiments/49/ for instance.

Patrick
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Re: [WSG] Need recomendations for CMS system

2005-08-17 Thread David Nicol
Textpattern gets my vote too - I've found that it is very flexible. 

We've used it for several sites including www.cope.ltd.uk and
www.selfcateringshetland.com. All the sites we've used it for so far
have been static, i.e. 'non-blog' - there is no real problem setting
this up once you understand how the system works.

My only concern with Textpattern is that some of our clients did not
find it immediately intuitive to get to grips with. It was important
to explain to them about sections/articles and so on so that they can
add/edit the correct content.
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Re: [WSG] html design - best practices

2005-08-17 Thread Ben Curtis


On Aug 17, 2005, at 4:39 AM, Julie Romanowski wrote:


On Aug 16, 2005, at 9:07 PM, Ben Curtis wrote:
That's a very curious thing for the W3C to publish. I am not  
aware of any HTML standard in which b and i are deprecated. Can  
anyone cite such a declaration?

...
Please look at the date of each document. The document listing the  
items

as deprecated is the most recent.

HTML 4.01 Specification http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/ 
cover.html#minitoc

W3C Recommendation 24 December 1999

XHTML(tm) 1.0 The Extensible HyperText Markup Language (Second  
Edition)

A Reformulation of HTML 4 in XML 1.0 http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#defs
W3C Recommendation 26 January 2000, revised 1 August 2002

Modularization of XHTML(tm)
W3C Recommendation 10 April 2001
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/

XHTML(tm) 1.1 - Module-based XHTML
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/Overview.html#toc
W3C Recommendation 31 May 2001

HTML Techniques for WCAG 2.0 http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-HTML-TECHS/
W3C Working Draft 30 June 2005 (includes the information regarding
deprecated b and i tags)


Looking solely at the dates would lead people to believe that we  
should currently be coding to XHTML2 specs, since that was most  
recently updated, but that would be wrong. Dates are useful in  
finding what spec is the most recent, but a spec is only a standard  
once it reaches recommendation status. The HTML Techniques spec you  
cite is a Working Draft, and they state in the prologue:


Publication as a Working Draft does not imply endorsement
by the W3C Membership. This is a draft document and may be
updated, replaced or obsoleted by other documents at any
time. It is inappropriate to cite this document as other
than work in progress.

It's not a standard yet. It's important to recognize that standards  
that are developed publicly will present a number of documents from  
official sources that are not, in themselves, definitive. It's  
important to cite the documents that are definitive, and only in the  
manner that they claim to be definitive. For example, had the HTML  
Techniques been a Recommendation, it would still be inappropriate to  
cite this entry as a declaration of the deprecation of the b and i  
elements (http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-HTML-TECHS/#em ). It's  
inappropriate because the document is not intended to define the  
state of elements, but only the techniques for using them.




If the W3C misspoke... Do you really believe that the W3C misspoke
because they have a working draft with change/updates to the current
HTML/XHTML recommendations?


Nothing can change or update a standard; only a new standard may be  
adopted. The portion you quoted stated that b and i as elements were  
deprecated in the HTML 4.01 and XHTML Recommendations. I have yet to  
find anything that would indicate that this is true. Thus, the W3C  
misspoke.


Now, that all said, I think that we're on pretty much the same side  
on this issue. Edward also points out:



On Aug 16, 2005, at 11:51 PM, Edward Clarke wrote:
You are correct, it hasn't been 'officially' deprecated but as  
visual tags

and not logical ones; CSS offers a better long term solution.


When there are only semantically inappropriate tags to use (e.g., the  
a tag as the original poster had implemented), then I opt for  
semantically empty tags, with a class applied, and the class is  
styled. Some opt for the semantically empty span tag; I opt for the  
semantically empty b tag. In both cases, they must be styled to suit:


b.bookTitle { font-weight:bold; }

If you treat the b or i tag (or any other valid markup) as  
semantically empty, then treat it in your CSS as having no default  
style. The only advantage is backwards compatibility with non-CSS  
browsers. As a long term solution, one must keep in mind that the  
declared doctype is just as much a part of the document as the other  
tags in it. Therefore, if I were to convert the doctype to, say,  
XHTML 2, then it would be just as easy to use XSLT to convert span  
class=bookTitle to something appropriate as to convert b  
class=bookTitle to the same thing. If your doctype states XHTML  
1.0 Strict, then that's the standard it needs to conform to.


--

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bivia : a personal web studio
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v: (818) 507-6613




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Re: [WSG] Win IE hacks -- Please help!

2005-08-17 Thread Ben Curtis


On Aug 16, 2005, at 9:45 PM, Janelle Clemens wrote:

Thanks Ben.  Unfortunately it is not for tabular data but page  
layout.   But
let me clarify that.  The main template (topnav, sidenav, footer)  
is in a
tabless format and validated.  The content area will have a 2 row,  
3 column

layout.   Each cell will contain content, like highlights or list of
products, but not relate to eachother in a tabular fashion.   
However each
cell has a bottom border that need to match up so if one cell  
expands in
height I need the rest to expand at the same rate.   Only a table  
can give

this or display: table-cell.



I think your previous training with tables has taught you to look at  
things on a page, instead of things being properties of the content.  
For example:


- you see that the bottom borders of two cells in one row need to  
line up on the page


- I see that there are two equally important content areas which are  
themselves related; I need to illustrate these relationships by  
placing the content areas side by side, and making them visually take  
up the same space as each other.


Coding XHTML+CSS is much easier when you look at the semantics first.  
They share a bottom border. Why? What does this mean? It means they  
are a group.


style type=text/css
div.blockContent {
float:left;
width:100%;
border-bottom:2px solid #000;
}
div.blockContent div {
float:left;
width:50%;
}
/style

div id=primaryContent class=blockContent
divblah blah blah/div
divblah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah  
blah/div

/div!-- /primaryContent --
div id=secondaryContent class=blockContent
divblah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah  
blah/div

divblah blah blah/div
/div!-- /secondaryContent --

Notice: the borders matching up on the page indicate that the cells  
are related, and since the border is the relationship, the border  
property gets assigned to the element that relates them -- the parent  
div.


(The float:left; on the parent div is just so that it stretches to  
enclose all of the floating children. Since the width is 100%, it has  
no other effect.)


--

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Re: [WSG] attribute selectors question

2005-08-17 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Thierry Koblentz wrote:


If you use type=application/pdf in your anchor, I think you can go with:
A[type=application/pdf]


Spookily enough, I also did something like this as an experiment back in 
June last year...


http://www.splintered.co.uk/experiments/38/

Ok, I'll stop pimping my warez for today I think ;)

--
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re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
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http://redux.deviantart.com
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RE: [WSG] html design - best practices

2005-08-17 Thread Edward Clarke
I see your point about backward compatibility but B and I aren't
technically, semantically empty. (If that makes sense).

span style=font-weight: normal;Harry Potter/span

makes sense...

b style=font-weight: normal;Harry Potter/b

does not.

B and I being visual tags should be removed from the markup and styled via
SPAN or inherited from its parent element, the styled using CSS. It's a
fundamental aspect of removing presentation from content; something I
believe should fail (but doesn't) the validator on any STRICT DTD check.



Now, that all said, I think that we're on pretty much the same side  
on this issue. Edward also points out:


On Aug 16, 2005, at 11:51 PM, Edward Clarke wrote:
 You are correct, it hasn't been 'officially' deprecated but as  
 visual tags
 and not logical ones; CSS offers a better long term solution.

When there are only semantically inappropriate tags to use (e.g., the  
a tag as the original poster had implemented), then I opt for  
semantically empty tags, with a class applied, and the class is  
styled. Some opt for the semantically empty span tag; I opt for the  
semantically empty b tag. In both cases, they must be styled to suit:

 b.bookTitle { font-weight:bold; }

If you treat the b or i tag (or any other valid markup) as  
semantically empty, then treat it in your CSS as having no default  
style. The only advantage is backwards compatibility with non-CSS  
browsers. As a long term solution, one must keep in mind that the  
declared doctype is just as much a part of the document as the other  
tags in it. Therefore, if I were to convert the doctype to, say,  
XHTML 2, then it would be just as easy to use XSLT to convert span  
class=bookTitle to something appropriate as to convert b  
class=bookTitle to the same thing. If your doctype states XHTML  
1.0 Strict, then that's the standard it needs to conform to.


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Re: [WSG] Need recomendations for CMS system

2005-08-17 Thread Steven C. Perkins
I surf with ignore font sizes on with IE and the TextPattern home page 
does not play well in that circumstance.  Interior pages seem to be 
OK.  I'd be interested in knowing if it always makes the homepage fixed 
font-size or relative font-size.


Steven C. Perkins


At 11:13 AM 8/17/2005, you wrote:

Textpattern gets my vote too - I've found that it is very flexible.

We've used it for several sites including www.cope.ltd.uk and
www.selfcateringshetland.com. All the sites we've used it for so far
have been static, i.e. 'non-blog' - there is no real problem setting
this up once you understand how the system works.

My only concern with Textpattern is that some of our clients did not
find it immediately intuitive to get to grips with. It was important
to explain to them about sections/articles and so on so that they can
add/edit the correct content.
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[WSG] Site check (eCommerce)

2005-08-17 Thread Thierry Koblentz
http://63.135.116.208

Hi all,
I have a few questions:
- Is a DL the right markup for the FAQ and Directions pages?
- On many pages (Home, CheckOut, FAQ, Directions), I'm using the same link
text to refer to different resources (13.1 Clearly identify the target of
each link). Should I be really concerned by that or is it OK because these
do not really link to anything specific (skip table link for example).
- I'm not using tabindex attributes; do I have to or is it OK as long as
the user can move in sequence between links/fields?

Anything else I should worry about? I'm aiming for WAI level 3...

BTW, I'm aware that the PDF file is corrupted

Thanks,
Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com

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[WSG] achieve 95% height with empty div in fire fox

2005-08-17 Thread kvnmcwebn
This doesn't work, because it has no idea what 95% of nothing is.
you need to specify the parent element to be 100%.  in this case,

body { height: 100%; }

This does the trick nicely in ie but firefox seems oblivious to the 
height declaration in the body rule. Is there something else i can do 
for ff?
thanks 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 I
 how can i get this div to scale to 95% of 
 the window  height without filling
 it with (invisible) content.
 
 
 
 div.logo {
 background: url(../LOGO.gif) 
 bottom right no-repeat;
 height:95%; margin: auto 0 0 0;
 }

This doesn't work, because it has no idea what 95% of nothing is.
you need to specify the parent element to be 100%.  in this case,

body { height: 100%; }

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[WSG] iframes

2005-08-17 Thread Chris Kennon

Hi,

What is the consensus of iframes? I've heard they've been deprecated,  
could some point me to articles on their impact on accessibility?



C 
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RE: [WSG] Site check (eCommerce)

2005-08-17 Thread Jona Decker
Thierry Koblentz wrote:


- Is a DL the right markup for the FAQ and Directions pages?


I think a definition list is the most semantically correct markup for an
FAQ. If you look at the w3 documention on lists it says that DLs
...consist of two parts: a term and a description which is pretty
close to the structure of an FAQ/FQA. The definition term is posed as a
question, e.g. What sets the Gold Membership apart from silver or
bronze? and the definition description would answer that, further
defining the term. Maybe that's a stretch but I think it's the best fit
we've got within our toolset. 

I'm not sure a definition list is the best choice for directions because
they have an order by necessity. So I would consider an ordered list,
beaten into submission with style. Normally. BUT the way you are
delivering directions on this site eliminates confusion as to ordering
since you used a narrative style. 

I'm not sure it's any *less* correct than the use of a DL for the FAQ.
After all, you are defining the term store location from 280 and
answering with a definition of place. (It's not that disimilar from a
legal description of land in the U.S., for example Southwest Quarter of
the Southwest Quarter of Section 18, Township 27, Range 16 except a
tract out of the Northwest corner thereof, described to-wit...). That's
*defining* but also directional. Seems like your directions are too.

Jona

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Re: [WSG] achieve 95% height with empty div in fire fox

2005-08-17 Thread FriccaWagner

I think   html, body {height:100;}   could help.



Oh my god!
My first mail at this list and my first mistake.
I'm sorry, I wanted to write
html, body {height:100%;}

g
fricca
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RE: [WSG] achieve 95% height with empty div in fire fox

2005-08-17 Thread kvnmcwebn

I think   html, body {height:100;}   could help.
Thanks fricca, but no joy.
-Kevin

   body { height: 100%; }
 
 This does the trick nicely in ie but firefox seems oblivious to the 
 height declaration in the body rule. Is there something else i can do 
 for ff?

Hello,

I think   html, body {height:100;}   could help.

greets
fricca

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RE: [WSG] achieve 95% height with empty div in fire fox

2005-08-17 Thread kvnmcwebn
doh! sorry i should have realized that wasnt intentional. 
that did the trick.-thanks a mill


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of FriccaWagner
Sent: 17 August 2005 20:18
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] achieve 95% height with empty div in fire fox


 I think   html, body {height:100;}   could help.
 

Oh my god!
My first mail at this list and my first mistake.
I'm sorry, I wanted to write
html, body {height:100%;}

g
fricca
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Re: [WSG] html design - best practices

2005-08-17 Thread Ben Curtis


On Aug 17, 2005, at 10:02 AM, Edward Clarke wrote:


I see your point about backward compatibility but B and I aren't
technically, semantically empty. (If that makes sense).

span style=font-weight: normal;Harry Potter/span

makes sense...

b style=font-weight: normal;Harry Potter/b

does not.


Both of your examples make the same amount of sense, semantically.  
Bold text does not mean anything different than non-bold text, and  
therefore boldness has no semantic meaning. Consider the semantics of  
these (fictional) tags:


compassNorth/compass
surnameNorth/surname
dictionary-entryNorth/dictionary-entry

Those are three different meanings that North can have. In your  
example, the span'd Harry Potter is the same as the b'd Harry Potter,  
and that would be true regardless of what content you wanted to span  
or b. That's why I say b is semantically empty.


What you are saying though, is that it doesn't make sense to declare  
that the b tag not render as bold. To which I reply, in a CSS  
browser, none of the presentation properties should be derived from  
the tag, and all should be derived from the CSS. Why single out a  
specific, meaningless tag? All presentation must be in the CSS,  
regardless of the tag.



B and I being visual tags should be removed from the markup and  
styled via

SPAN or inherited from its parent element, the styled using CSS.


img is also a visual tag. This is likely the reason that img was  
going to be removed (like b and i) in XHTML2, until a developer  
outcry insisted it remain for backwards compatibility (nonsense, I  
say -- if you're moving to XHTML2, the img tag is the easiest thing  
to transform). I wholeheartedly agree with removing presentation from  
the markup. This is why in my original post I stated that using b  
gains you backwards compatibility, but you *must* style it  
appropriately, as if it were a span; otherwise, you fail to separate.


Allow me to reiterate:
- b and i are not deprecated (i.e., valid but marked for future  
removal)

- they are semantically empty, and must be thoroughly styled
- they achieve a semblance of backwards compatibility

Some point out that b and i are deprecated because they are not in  
XHTML2. This argument is soft at best; for example, the very document  
pointing out that b and i are deprecated requires a use of the label  
element that is incompatible with XHTML2.


http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-HTML-TECHS/#label
http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050527/mod- 
list.html#edef_list_label


Those trying to code their XHTML1.0 Strict to be forward-compatible  
with XHTML2 have their work cut out for them.




It's a
fundamental aspect of removing presentation from content; something I
believe should fail (but doesn't) the validator on any STRICT DTD  
check.


Don't confuse valid with preferred technique. The Strict DTD is a  
different DTD than the Transitional or Frameset DTDs, and it is not  
better or worse, nor are the other DTDs less strict (as in rigidly  
applied), they just include more options. What you are proposing is  
that the Strict DTD should not include b and i; it's a valid  
argument, but it does not reflect the approved Recommendation of the  
W3C.


--

Ben Curtis : webwright
bivia : a personal web studio
http://www.bivia.com
v: (818) 507-6613




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Re: [WSG] iframes

2005-08-17 Thread standards
Chris,

I can't speak to iframes because I use the CSS overflow style, which provides 
the same basic
functionality, but requires using absolute positioning, and the height should 
be insufficient to
contain the text, which will automatically generate a scroll bar:

#news
{position: absolute;
 top: 65%;
 left: 65%;
 height: 185px;
 width: 155px;
 overflow: auto;
 text-align: left;
 border: 2px inset #fff;
 padding: 0 5px;
 background-color: #dd;}

Respectfully submitted,
Mario S. Cisneros

 Hi,

 What is the consensus of iframes? I've heard they've been deprecated,   could 
 some point me to
 articles on their impact on accessibility?


 C
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Re: [WSG] iframes

2005-08-17 Thread Brian Cummiskey

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I can't speak to iframes because I use the CSS overflow style, which provides 
the same basic
functionality, but requires using absolute positioning, 


For the record, the div + css overflow does NOT have to be absolute 
position.


It can be block, or relative, or asbolute, or heck- i bet inline would 
work too (perhaps not semantically, but overflow/scorll bars should 
still come out)




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Re: [WSG] iframes

2005-08-17 Thread Kenny Graham
If you're using the iFrame to pull an external site into a box in your
own site, I've been using object for that. But I'm not
sure on the cross-browser status on that.


RE: [WSG] Win IE hacks -- Please help!

2005-08-17 Thread Janelle Clemens
Hi Ben.   I tried your code but it is not giving what I need.  It's a design
thing.   Not my design as we have designers that are designing the
templates.   My job is to make the html look like their comps.   Here are
the examples:

http://www.sgi.com/tempie.html

The first is your code.   The second is divs using float left.  The third is
display: table-cell;  (the third looks perfect in Firefox).

I need the borders of all 3 cells to match up.   Like I said it is a design
thing.   So far my best solution is a simple table giving each cell the
background image that creates the border. 

Do you know if IE7 will acknowledge the display value table-cell?

Thanks for your help by the way.
:-)



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Ben Curtis
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 9:50 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Win IE hacks -- Please help!


On Aug 16, 2005, at 9:45 PM, Janelle Clemens wrote:

 Thanks Ben.  Unfortunately it is not for tabular data but page  
 layout.   But
 let me clarify that.  The main template (topnav, sidenav, footer) is 
 in a tabless format and validated.  The content area will have a 2 
 row,
 3 column
 layout.   Each cell will contain content, like highlights or list of
 products, but not relate to eachother in a tabular fashion.   
 However each
 cell has a bottom border that need to match up so if one cell expands 
 in
 height I need the rest to expand at the same rate.   Only a table  
 can give
 this or display: table-cell.


I think your previous training with tables has taught you to look at things
on a page, instead of things being properties of the content.  
For example:

- you see that the bottom borders of two cells in one row need to line up on
the page

- I see that there are two equally important content areas which are
themselves related; I need to illustrate these relationships by placing the
content areas side by side, and making them visually take up the same space
as each other.

Coding XHTML+CSS is much easier when you look at the semantics first.  
They share a bottom border. Why? What does this mean? It means they are a
group.

style type=text/css
 div.blockContent {
 float:left;
 width:100%;
 border-bottom:2px solid #000;
 }
 div.blockContent div {
 float:left;
 width:50%;
 }
/style

div id=primaryContent class=blockContent
 divblah blah blah/div
 divblah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah/div
/div!-- /primaryContent --
div id=secondaryContent class=blockContent
 divblah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah/div
 divblah blah blah/div
/div!-- /secondaryContent --

Notice: the borders matching up on the page indicate that the cells  
are related, and since the border is the relationship, the border property
gets assigned to the element that relates them -- the parent div.

(The float:left; on the parent div is just so that it stretches to enclose
all of the floating children. Since the width is 100%, it has no other
effect.)

-- 

 Ben Curtis : webwright
 bivia : a personal web studio
 http://www.bivia.com
 v: (818) 507-6613




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RE: [WSG] iframes

2005-08-17 Thread kvnmcwebn

I used a 3 iframe layout on a site which i did before i was aware of web
standards.
There was a problem with a scoll bar showing up where it wasnt supposed to
in ie but otherthan that it worked all right. I havnt used them since then.
here is the url.
www.strykelacrosse.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Brian Cummiskey
Sent: 17 August 2005 21:53
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] iframes


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I can't speak to iframes because I use the CSS overflow style, which
provides the same basic
 functionality, but requires using absolute positioning,

For the record, the div + css overflow does NOT have to be absolute
position.

It can be block, or relative, or asbolute, or heck- i bet inline would
work too (perhaps not semantically, but overflow/scorll bars should
still come out)



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Re: [WSG] Need recomendations for CMS system

2005-08-17 Thread Patrick Ryan
Based on your requirements, I'd say your choices are Textpattern or Wordpress.

I built my site on wordpress(http://www.agavegroup.com) and after that
experience (and installing both wordpress and textpattern) I'd say
Wordpress is easier to use, and is a great choice for small to medium
sites.

Anything bigger I think I'd choose Textpattern.  While not quite as
straight forward (in my opinion) it seems to extend into the CMS world
a little better.
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Re: [WSG] Need recomendations for CMS system

2005-08-17 Thread Phil Gohr
Is anyone else having trouble downloading the Textpattern file?
I keep getting a server error msg. 412=precondition failed. aborting


I'd say your choices are Textpattern or Wordpress.


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[WSG] Semantic Calendar

2005-08-17 Thread Scott Swabey \(Lafinboy Productions\)
G'day all

I have been tinkering with a calendar generation script (PHP if relevant),
and have developed two versions. One uses a semantically correct table for
layout, the other uses ordered lists to hold and layout the day names and
month dates. After working on this for a while and thinking about it for
wa too long I am faced with the quandary - which of the two versions is
_more_ semantically correct? Does a calendar (single month) qualify as
tabular data, are ordered lists a better fit, or should I be looking at
another option?

Any feedback/opinions would be appreciated.

Regards

Scott Swabey
Lafinboy Productions
www.lafinboy.com

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Re: [WSG] Semantic Calendar

2005-08-17 Thread T. R. Valentine
On 17/08/05, Scott Swabey (Lafinboy Productions)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Does a calendar (single month) qualify as tabular data,
 are ordered lists a better fit, or should I be looking at
 another option?

IMO, a calendar is always tabular data.

-- 
T. R. Valentine
Use a decent browser: Safari, Firefox, Mozilla, Opera
(Avoid IE like the plague it is)
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Re: [WSG] Need recomendations for CMS system

2005-08-17 Thread Kris Khaira
I'd recommend Textpattern for sites where clients might need to blog 
in more than just the homepage. WordPress can only do this with hacks.


Running Textpattern: http://kriskhaira.com, 
http://www.hicksdesign.co.uk, http://nathanpitman.com/, 
http://particletree.com/, http://tedkennedy.com, 
http://www.jaredigital.com/


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[WSG] Safari 1.3 vs Safari 2 differences

2005-08-17 Thread Shane Helm
Oh no. Not another browser difference to account for.  When does it  
ever end? :)

(Please excuse me if this has been discussed before and I missed it.)

Has anyone else been noticing differences on sites rendering  
differently in Safari 1.3 vs Safari 2?  I sure have in the 2 latest  
sites I've been involved in.  Anyone know a good resource to read or  
what exactly is different?


Just wondering.  Thanks for your time.

Shane Helm
www.sonze.com
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Re: [WSG] Semantic Calendar

2005-08-17 Thread Kris Khaira
Both are equally semantic depending on how it's used. If it's a list of 
dates, use dates. If it's a table of dates that displays dates against 
days (Sun, Mon, Tues... Sat), then use a table.


If you're always lost about how to display something in the most 
semantic manner, try viewing it without styles. It it makes sense 
without styles, you're good to go.


--
Kris Khaira http://kriskhaira.com

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Re: [WSG] Need recomendations for CMS system

2005-08-17 Thread Bert Doorn

I thought this thread was CLOSED?

Regards 
--

Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites 



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Re: [WSG] Semantic Calendar

2005-08-17 Thread John Allsopp

Hi,

Check out the hcalendar microformat

http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar

It's based on the widely used iCalender format from the IEEE.

Two of the founders of Microformats, Tantek Celik and Eric Meyer are  
speaking at Web Essentials in Sydney at the end of September.


http://we05.com

Tantek in particular will be looking a the issues of semantics in detail

john

On 18/08/2005, at 1:20 PM, Scott Swabey ((Lafinboy Productions)) wrote:


G'day all

I have been tinkering with a calendar generation script (PHP if  
relevant),
and have developed two versions. One uses a semantically correct  
table for
layout, the other uses ordered lists to hold and layout the day  
names and
month dates. After working on this for a while and thinking about  
it for
wa too long I am faced with the quandary - which of the two  
versions is

_more_ semantically correct? Does a calendar (single month) qualify as
tabular data, are ordered lists a better fit, or should I be  
looking at

another option?

Any feedback/opinions would be appreciated.

Regards

Scott Swabey
Lafinboy Productions
www.lafinboy.com

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John Allsopp

style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master
support forum ::  http://support.westciv.com
blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher

Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com


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Re: [WSG] Safari 1.3 vs Safari 2 differences

2005-08-17 Thread Al Sparber

From: Shane Helm [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Oh no. Not another browser difference to account for.  When does it 
ever end? :)
(Please excuse me if this has been discussed before and I missed 
it.)


Has anyone else been noticing differences on sites rendering 
differently in Safari 1.3 vs Safari 2?  I sure have in the 2 latest 
sites I've been involved in.  Anyone know a good resource to read or 
what exactly is different?


Just wondering.  Thanks for your time.


I would be interested in seeing a resource, but I wouldn't hold my 
breath. Safari seems to be slightly different as tied to different OS 
versions. That is, we've seen anomalies on Panther versions that are 
not apparent on Jaguar. Tiger bug fixes that are still broken on 
Panther and Jaguar and just about all scenarios in between. The good 
news is that much of it seems to involve rendering shortcuts 
introduced that affect active content, Javascript/DOM stuff or Flash 
Player stuff. On a completely static page, there are not terribly 
debilitating problems. But do post with resources, Surfin Safari seems 
to be a bit evasive - although they did quickly fix a bug that was 
affecting alistapart.com :-)


I've got a test page in to their bugbase and Macromedia recently filed 
one at my behest involving wmode in the Flash Player.


Al Sparber
PVII
http://www.projectseven.com

Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling 
mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that 
repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday.



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