Re: [WSG] Evaluating Web Sites for Accessibility with Firefox

2005-08-23 Thread Rick Faaberg 
On 8/23/05 11:42 PM "dwain alford" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent this out:

>> Is there some way to install and execute on Mac OSX? Anybody has done it?
>> 
> 
> i would assume so, it's a browser extension, so it should function on
> mac osx.

I would assume that also, but the installation complained greatly about my
Java environment and then I had to abort installation.

Wondering if anybody's done the install successfully on OSX, especially on
10.3.9 (and how they did it).

Maybe it shouldn't be on this list though. Email is fine if anybody has
useful info for me.

Thanks!

Rick Faaberg

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Re: [WSG] Evaluating Web Sites for Accessibility with Firefox

2005-08-23 Thread dwain alford 

Rick Faaberg wrote:

On 8/23/05 10:25 PM "dwain alford" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent this out:



i just downloaded the accessibar at the mozdev web site.  it's got a
built in reader; so if you have speakers or a headset you can hear how
accessible your page is in a reader.  it's not superior quality audio,
but it definitely gives you a sense of what's on the page.  the tool bar
is for folks with accessibility issues.  maybe i'm getting into gadgets
for accessibility, but as a visual artist and web designer, i'm caring
more about standards and accessibility more each day.  check it out,
it's a cool firefox/mozilla extension.



Is there some way to install and execute on Mac OSX? Anybody has done it?



i would assume so, it's a browser extension, so it should function on 
mac osx.


dwain


--
Dwain Alford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.alforddesigngroup.com

The Savior replied;
"There is no such thing as sin;..."
'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala'
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Re: [WSG] Evaluating Web Sites for Accessibility with Firefox

2005-08-23 Thread Rick Faaberg 
On 8/23/05 10:25 PM "dwain alford" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent this out:

> i just downloaded the accessibar at the mozdev web site.  it's got a
> built in reader; so if you have speakers or a headset you can hear how
> accessible your page is in a reader.  it's not superior quality audio,
> but it definitely gives you a sense of what's on the page.  the tool bar
> is for folks with accessibility issues.  maybe i'm getting into gadgets
> for accessibility, but as a visual artist and web designer, i'm caring
> more about standards and accessibility more each day.  check it out,
> it's a cool firefox/mozilla extension.

Is there some way to install and execute on Mac OSX? Anybody has done it?

Thanks

Rick

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RE: [WSG] Accessibility, the possibilities

2005-08-23 Thread Stuart Sherwood 

Thanks John,
It took a while but the answer I was looking for came along. Thank you! 
Your web site is very helpful.


I'm wondering how accurate or relevant some of the checks are on 
something like http://webxact.watchfire.com/
I tested my site and there seems to be many warnings that I can ignore. 
Try checking my site if you like. www.re-entity.com
I'm interested if you agree that some warnings can be ignored. I gather 
this is what you are talking about when you mention "manual" checks.


I know there are some things that should be changed on my site. I'm 
currently working on a re-design!


Are any of the validation tools: Bobby, Cynthiasays, Watchfire...more 
respected then the others?


Regards,
Stuart.


 


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Re: [WSG] Evaluating Web Sites for Accessibility with Firefox (article on Chris Pederick's FF ext Web Developer toolbar)

2005-08-23 Thread dwain alford 

Geoff Deering wrote:
Patrick H. Lauke has written this article 
(http://www.ariadne.ac.uk/issue44/lauke/) on Chris Pederick's Web 
Developer toolbar 
, a tool Derek 
Featherstone also mentions as a great aid for web standards development.


i just downloaded the accessibar at the mozdev web site.  it's got a 
built in reader; so if you have speakers or a headset you can hear how 
accessible your page is in a reader.  it's not superior quality audio, 
but it definitely gives you a sense of what's on the page.  the tool bar 
is for folks with accessibility issues.  maybe i'm getting into gadgets 
for accessibility, but as a visual artist and web designer, i'm caring 
more about standards and accessibility more each day.  check it out, 
it's a cool firefox/mozilla extension.


dwain


--
Dwain Alford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.alforddesigngroup.com

The Savior replied;
"There is no such thing as sin;..."
'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala'
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[WSG] Evaluating Web Sites for Accessibility with Firefox (article on Chris Pederick's FF ext Web Developer toolbar)

2005-08-23 Thread Geoff Deering 

Hi,

I know this article was bunched in with a reference to Ariadne back on 
10th August by sunny, but given it's relevance and importance in 
building a toolbox for evaluating web accessibility, and the recent 
question by Stuart Sherwood, I'll mention it prominently here, because 
it's a shame to not mention it.


Patrick H. Lauke has written this article 
(http://www.ariadne.ac.uk/issue44/lauke/) on Chris Pederick's Web 
Developer toolbar 
, a tool Derek 
Featherstone also mentions as a great aid for web standards development.


--
Geoff Deering
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RE: [WSG] Accessibility, the possibilities

2005-08-23 Thread Peter Williams 
> From: Damian Sweeney
> Try http://69.93.55.164/topics/userscience/accessibility/

So, there really is a new A List Apart.
Hopefully DNS propogation will proceed apace and we can all
enjoy the new look and feel :-)

-- 
Peter Williams
 
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[WSG] User Centered Design seminars via Human Factors International

2005-08-23 Thread James O'Neill 
Greetings All,

I am considering taking the User Centered Design seminars  via Human
Factors International in Chicago Illinois when it comes around here in
September. Work will pay for it, so cost is not an issue.

I am wondering if any of you have taken their seminars or know
anything about them. I do not ant to waste my time or my company's
money. I am curious if their training is worth  the time and money?

http://www.humanfactors.com/training/default.asp

On a related note, they sponsor World Wide Usability Day on November 3, 2005.
http://www.worldusabilityday.net/

You may reply to me off-list. =)

Thanks in advance,
Jim
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Re: Staying on topic (was RE: [WSG] Accessibility, the possibilities)

2005-08-23 Thread Geoff Deering 

John Foliot - WATS.ca wrote:


There are in fact checkpoints under all three Priorities which require
"brain" intervention - they simply cannot be tested mechanically.  Try
running a page through something like Cynthia says
(http://www.cynthiasays.com) will quickly show you what needs to be
manually checked.  Cynthia says also provides a fairly extensive chart
of what and how their tests are run
(http://www.cynthiasays.com/Standards/CynthiaVersusBobby.htm)

 



I'm glad John picked up on this thread and elucidated and expanded on it 
(and that the "JF accesskey parser" is working well ;-) ).



--
Geoff
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Re: Staying on topic (was RE: [WSG] Accessibility, the possibilities)

2005-08-23 Thread Geoff Deering 

John Foliot - WATS.ca wrote:


There are in fact checkpoints under all three Priorities which require
"brain" intervention - they simply cannot be tested mechanically.  Try
running a page through something like Cynthia says
(http://www.cynthiasays.com) will quickly show you what needs to be
manually checked.  Cynthia says also provides a fairly extensive chart
of what and how their tests are run
(http://www.cynthiasays.com/Standards/CynthiaVersusBobby.htm)

 



I'm glad John picked up on this thread and illucidated and expanded on 
it (and that the "JF accesskey parser" is working well ;-) ).



--
Geoff
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[WSG] unsubscribe

2005-08-23 Thread i_amitsharma 
PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE MY MEMBERSHIP
THANKS
 
 
 
Message from wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Forwarded as 
attachment Indiatimes Email now 
powered by APIC Advantage. http://email.indiatimes.com/apic/";>Help! http://imaround.indiatimes.com/IMaround/presencefr.mss?userid=i_amitsharma";
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pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.!
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type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="360" 
height="80">
--- Begin Message ---



On 22 Aug 2005, at 12:18 AM, Jan Brasna wrote:

Does this statement imply the machine hosting Virtual PC and IE  
becomes vulnerable to malicious software?


No. Only the guest OS (WXP, W2K) is vulnerable. It runs in sandbox.


no reason to suspect anything will be different


Colors are different (due to the matter of Mac's different gamma).


It's straightforward to set up a monitor profile with a gamma that 
matches a PC's.



How does using VPC, compare to just using Browser Cam?


You can try behavior or interaction too.


..and resize browser windows, zoom text etc, to check effectiveness of 
liquid design.


Personally, I find being able to test CSS variations (box model hacks, 
for instance) in real time, in a real browser environment, an 
invaluable dvelopment tool, and one that was well worth the expense. 
Heck, I covered the cost of the software in the time I saved testing 
the first site I built after I installed it!


N
___
Omnivision. Websight.
http://www.omnivision.com.au/

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--- End Message ---

Staying on topic (was RE: [WSG] Accessibility, the possibilities)

2005-08-23 Thread John Foliot - WATS.ca 
Stuart Sherwood wrote:
> 
>> Hi All,
>> If you pass all these test, does this exhaust all accessibility
>> issues or are there more? 
>> 

Stuart,

There are also the "soft" tests - often these deal with areas of
cognitive issues, from dyslexia to English as a second or third
language, etc.  Consider the requirement for appropriate and descriptive
ALT text... What is appropriate, and further, who decides?  Then there
is the whole issue of "readability" - test such as the Flesch-Kincaid
Grade Level Score can give you an idea if your content is written in
language appropriate for the site's intended audience, but it's hardly
an exact science. (http://wats.ca/resources/determiningreadability/1).  

There are also issues surrounding appropriate use of tables, list types,
etc. which require judgment calls.  Here, once the appropriate container
has been chosen (UL, OL, table?), you must then check to ensure that
they have been constructed appropriately - for example does your table
have (or even require) a summary?  Scope / headers & ID, etc.?

As for testing tools, in addition to the ones already mentioned, we have
collected a number of other "gadgets" which can be of assistance:
http://wats.ca/resources/testingtools/44


Geoff Deering wrote:
> 
> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/full-checklist.html
> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/checkpoint-list.html
> 
> I think there are P3 checkpoints that are not covered here that you
> would need to check manually.

There are in fact checkpoints under all three Priorities which require
"brain" intervention - they simply cannot be tested mechanically.  Try
running a page through something like Cynthia says
(http://www.cynthiasays.com) will quickly show you what needs to be
manually checked.  Cynthia says also provides a fairly extensive chart
of what and how their tests are run
(http://www.cynthiasays.com/Standards/CynthiaVersusBobby.htm)

> 
> Just as a side issue, there is a lot of debate in the accessibility
> community about the merit of using accesskeys, tabindex, etc.

Did somebody say accesskeys?  Whoa-boy...

Using Accesskeys - Is it worth it?: 
http://www.wats.ca/articles/accesskeys/19

More reasons why we don't use accesskeys: 
http://www.wats.ca/articles/accesskeyconflicts/37

Accesskeys and Reserved Keystroke Combinations: 
http://www.wats.ca/resources/accesskeysandkeystrokes/38  

Link Relationships as an Alternative to Accesskeys: 
http://www.wats.ca/articles/accesskeyalternatives/52

The Future of Accesskeys: 
http://www.wats.ca/articles/thefutureofaccesskeys/66 



> 
> IMHO, many accessibility practitioners aim for WAI-AA, whilst
> incorporating the most practical of the WAI-AAA checkpoints to aid
> accessibility.

As a general assumption, this is a relatively fair statement.  Please
remember that the WCAG is now 6 years old (May 1999), and it's showing
it's age.  Regrettably, some developers must adhere slavishly to the
checkpoints - often creating more problems than they are solving, but
that is simply due to the fact that the Guidelines were never written to
be Standards - but are now serving that role more often than not.  If
you *do* have the luxury of being flexible, shooting for a WCAG AA+
"standing" is probably your safest position, but determining that
"ranking" cannot be measured by simple tools alone - a clear and
experienced understanding of the issues will always be required.  The
clear understanding can come from hanging out in forums such as this
one, the WAI-IG (http://www.w3.org/WAI/IG/), WebAIM
(www.webaim.org/gettinghelp/) and GAWDS (the Guild of Accessible Web
Developers - http://www.gawds.org/discuss/).  Many of the regulars on
these lists are only too happy to lend a hand and provide answers, etc.
when asked.

Experience on the other hand takes time...  But it's really worth the
wait.

HTH

JF
--
John Foliot  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web Accessibility Specialist / Co-founder of WATS.ca
Web Accessibility Testing and Services
http://www.wats.ca   
Phone: 1-613-482-7053 



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[WSG] Help with a simple problem - another issue

2005-08-23 Thread Christian Robertson 




Hi everyone

After the excellent help I received a few days ago, I have continued my
development which can be viewed here:

http://www.metamorphosis.info/test/index2.htm

The CSS file is located at:
http://www.metamorphosis.info/test/s/css2.css


Al was just fine, until I noticed that the bottom of the content is cut
off in IE as the scrollbar only moves part of the way down the
content.  It was working fine for a while, but has failed? I assume
it's to do with the vertical blue column, or the content  within it,
but am not certain. 

Anyone able to see what I did wrong?  Works fine in Firefox.

Thanks in advance

Chris

RE: [WSG] weird three menu on IE 5

2005-08-23 Thread YW Webmaster 

Note for "Bert Doorn":  Sorry for slamming your mail server, this is my
first (actually second) time posting to this list and I should have read its
guidelines more carefully.

But a simple "please use plain text and keep thread quoting to a minimum"
would likewise suffice.  

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Re: [WSG] Accessibility, the possibilities

2005-08-23 Thread Vicki Berry 
Might be a propagation thing. Try http://69.93.55.164/ for the new site.

Vicki.  :-)

-- 
Vicki Berry
DistinctiveWeb
http://www.distinctiveweb.com.au
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Re: [WSG] weird three menu on IE 5

2005-08-23 Thread Bert Doorn 

G'day

Dwain, the url was shown at the bottom of Setiawan's email:

   for more detail those code was in :   
   http://embun.net

   http://embun.net/style/style_black.css
   http://embun.net/script/script.js

Setiawan, it would indeed help if you would tell us what part of the 
menu looks weird to you.   The only thing that looks odd to me in IE5 
(PC) is some extra space between the (background) bullet and the text  
in the menu items


IE5 / 5.5 PC is not used by that many people.  They would not know how 
it is ~supposed~ to look and the menu works fine.  But if you do want to 
fix it, the auto left margin on the ul and problems with the IE5 box 
model may be part of the reason for it (no guarantees).


Note for "YW Webmaster": a 34kB email to say "Can you describe what its 
doing wrong in IE 5 and 5.5?"  seems a little over the top.


Regards 
--

Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites 



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Re: [WSG] weird three menu on IE 5

2005-08-23 Thread dwain alford 

setiawan77th wrote:

Can someone be so kind helping me to my problem with three menu.
It's work o IE6 and Mozzila.
But some how it look weird in IE5 and IE5.5


can you supply a url so we can look?

dwain

--
Dwain Alford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.alforddesigngroup.com

The Savior replied;
"There is no such thing as sin;..."
'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala'
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RE: [WSG] weird three menu on IE 5

2005-08-23 Thread YW Webmaster 








Can you describe what its doing wrong in
IE 5 and 5.5?

 









From: setiawan77th
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005
2:59 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] weird three menu on
IE 5



 

Can someone be so kind helping me to my problem with three menu.
It's work o IE6 and Mozzila.
But some how it look weird in IE5 and IE5.5

[CSS]



#menu {



   margin-bottom: 30px;
   }
  
   #menu  ul {
   margin: 0 0 0 auto;
   padding: 0;
   text-align: left;
   list-style: none; 
   border: none; 
   width: 200px;
   }
   
   #menu  li {
   margin: 0 0 0 0;
   padding: 0;
   list-style-type: none;
   border: none;
   }
   
   #menu  a {
   padding: 5px 0px 0px 15px;
   font-size: 11px;
   display: block;
   background:  url('../images/dot.gif') no-repeat left center;
   text-decoration: none; 
   font-style:normal; 
   font-variant:normal; 
   font-weight:normal; 
   font-size:11px; 
   font-family:Lucida Grande, Lucida Sans Unicode, verdana, lucida, sans-serif; 

   text-align: left;
   border: none;
   }
   
   #menu  a:hover {
   border: none;
   text-decoration: none; 
   color: #FF;
   background: url('../images/dot_active.gif') no-repeat left center;

   }  


[HTML]

[WSG] weird three menu on IE 5

2005-08-23 Thread setiawan77th 
Can someone be so kind helping me to my problem with three menu.It's work o IE6 and Mozzila.But some how it look weird in IE5 and IE5.5[CSS]
#menu {

			margin-bottom: 30px;		}			#menu  ul {			margin: 0 0 0 auto;			padding: 0;			text-align: left;			list-style: none; 			border: none; 			width: 200px;		}#menu  li {
			margin: 0 0 0 0;			padding: 0;			list-style-type: none;			border: none;		}#menu  a {			padding: 5px 0px 0px 15px;			font-size: 11px;			display: block;			background:  url('../images/dot.gif') no-repeat left center;
			text-decoration: none; 			font-style:normal; 			font-variant:normal; 			font-weight:normal; 			font-size:11px; 			font-family:Lucida Grande, Lucida Sans Unicode, verdana, lucida, sans-serif; 
			text-align: left;			border: none;		}#menu  a:hover {			border: none;			text-decoration: none;color: #FF;			background: url('../images/dot_active.gif') no-repeat left center;
		}		[HTML]

Re: [WSG] Specifying Web Standards and Accessibility Requirements

2005-08-23 Thread David Nicol 
Thank Peter.

I had totally forgotten about the NYPL styleguide, something that I
studied extensively in the past.

Thanks for the reminder.

Cheers
David

> J Zeldman had a lot of input to the New York Public Library Styleguide
> which incoroprates a lot of the sort of info your are wanting I think.
> http://www.nypl.org/styleguide/
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Re: [WSG] Accessibility, the possibilities

2005-08-23 Thread Geoff Deering 

Stuart Sherwood wrote:


Hi All,
First, I'd just like to check I understand something correctly.
Validation for WAI AAA = WCAG 1.0 Priority 3. Is this correct?

Ok, we can validate for:

   * W3C HTML/XHTML
   * CSS
   * WAI
   * Section 508

And I've recently learnt about accessibility checks for:

   * Colour blindness
   * Contrast
   * Flicker/strobe

If you pass all these test, does this exhaust all accessibility issues 
or are there more?


Regards,
Stuart



http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/full-checklist.html
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/checkpoint-list.html

I think there are P3 checkpoints that are not covered here that you 
would need to check manually.


Just as a side issue, there is a lot of debate in the accessibility 
community about the merit of using accesskeys, tabindex, etc.   
Sometimes there is no clear cut path to take regarding these issues, in 
some places, accesskeys can cause problems in the way they are 
implemented by user agents and also how they fit the site design, at the 
same time they can be of great help in forms on intranets where users 
are doing a lot of repetitive tasks.  Similar debates surround tabindex, 
sometimes it's best to leave this to the natural flow of tabs managed by 
the user agent, sometimes not.


IMHO, many accessibility practitioners aim for WAI-AA, whilst 
incorporating the most practical of the WAI-AAA checkpoints to aid 
accessibility. 

What I'm talking about here is a basic set of checkpoints one implements 
for all sites, in such cases, with ROI in mind.  My general target is 
WAI-AA with what I would call the essential AAA checkpoints.  Some sites 
(or clients) warrant all of P3/AAA, which is what is required to certify 
it as AAA.


My 2 cents worth.


Regards
Geoff


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