Re: [WSG] Say no to CSS hacks with branching techniques

2005-10-09 Thread James Ellis
Thierry In what arcane alternate reality do comments drive code? You are still talking about a hack. How is using this different to parsing a User Agent string? different method but same result. Adding to this, it's not a valid way of writing your code, as mentioned on another thread. The

[WSG] Redesign of a danish library website - help/comments

2005-10-09 Thread Soren Johannessen
Hi all Next week bibliotek.dk [Denmark] (url http://bibliotek.dk) is going to redesign their website In bibliotek.dk you will find records of all items published in Denmark as well as all items found in the Danish public research libraries. There is a beta version ready

Re: [WSG] But why didn't Eric use positioning

2005-10-09 Thread Mordechai Peller
Patrick H. Lauke wrote: The same happens when you use floats inside a container: if you don't have something as the last item of the container to clear them, the container will collapse. That's not always true. If the container is also floated, it DOES expand to contain child floats.

[WSG] Image rollovers

2005-10-09 Thread Kevin Arrowsmith
Hi guys Im creating a site which will be using rollovers but what is the best way to create the rollovers, use _javascript_ or use CSS to control them. I have used _javascript_ at the moment but I seem to be having some problems with firefox and images, firefox seems to put some kind

RE: [WSG] Image rollovers

2005-10-09 Thread James Oppenheim
You can do it all using css. Try this link: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/sprites Hopefully that helps. Cheers, James From: Kevin Arrowsmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Image rollovers Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 11:52:56

Re: [WSG] Site check: color.rdpdesign.com

2005-10-09 Thread Steve Ferguson
I expected the manual inputs to accept hex values since that's typically how we work with colors on the web. Perhaps you could offer the option of using hex or decimal?Steve Ferguson - Illumit L.L.C. http://illumit.comOn Oct 8, 2005, at 6:25 PM, Christian Montoya wrote:Hey all, Thanks for the

Re: [WSG] Site check: color.rdpdesign.com

2005-10-09 Thread Christian Montoya
On 10/9/05, Steve Ferguson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I expected the manual inputs to accept hex values since that's typically how we work with colors on the web. Perhaps you could offer the option of using hex or decimal?Steve Ferguson - Illumit L.L.C. http://illumit.com I will, later. -- - C

[WSG] 3 row(div) liquid vertical layout w/drop shadows-help-

2005-10-09 Thread kvnmcwebn
hello all, ive dug myself into a hole trying to create a3 div-semiliquidlayout with expandable drop shadows.- The drop shadow method im using isnt perfect for this application but I cant find a better one as i want an eqaul shadow on all 4 sides of the div. I cant remember where i got

Re: [WSG] Meta Keywords?

2005-10-09 Thread Terrence Wood
If you mean for search engines, then yes, I think you are correct. However, there may be other valid reasons for using metadata. Does anyone remember when Anil Dash (from Six Apart) beat out 2 SEO companies and won a SEO competition in 2004? http://www.dashes.com/anil/2004/07/27/optimizing_sear

RE: [WSG] 3 row(div) liquid vertical layout w/drop shadows-help-

2005-10-09 Thread Helmut Granda
Both links point to the same page. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of kvnmcwebn Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 2:52 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] 3 row(div) liquid vertical layout w/drop shadows-help- hello all,

Re: [WSG] Say no to CSS hacks with branching techniques

2005-10-09 Thread Thierry Koblentz
Hi James, Adding to this, it's not a valid way of writing your code, as mentioned on another thread. AFAIK, the discussion you're referring to didn't take us anywhere. It has been said that Michael Landis summed up the thread pretty well saying: I think we're getting very close to a debate on

RE: [WSG] 3 row(div) liquid vertical layout w/drop shadows-help-

2005-10-09 Thread kvnmcwebn
sorry thats http://mcmonagle.biz/test.htm http://mcmonagle.biz/test2.htm

RE: [WSG] 3 row(div) liquid vertical layout w/drop shadows-help-

2005-10-09 Thread kvnmcwebn
sorry all, i've foundthetutorial that might help me with this problem so i will try and figure it out on my own. thanks

Re: [WSG] Redesign of a danish library website - help/comments

2005-10-09 Thread Felix Miata
Soren Johannessen wrote: Next week bibliotek.dk [Denmark] (url http://bibliotek.dk) is going to redesign their website In bibliotek.dk you will find records of all items published in Denmark as well as all items found in the Danish public research libraries. There is a beta version ready

[WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Hope Stewart
I'm getting the hang of this whole Web Standards way of designing a website and for the most part can totally avoid using br. But in the example below I'm unsure whether I should in fact avoid using br: pstrongAll correspondence should be addressed to:/strongbr / The Secretarybr / Your Clubbr /

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Richard Czeiger
This sounds like it's going to turn into another let's all figure out how to use the address tag thing so let me pre-empt that. I think the bigger question is can someone proivde an example of when best to use the br / tag in general? What type of content semantically requires a line break.

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread XStandard
Hi Hope, There is nothing evil about the br element unless one is using it for visual effect. In your example, you are using br correctly. For addresses, you might want to use the address element instead of p. Regards, -Vlad http://xstandard.com Original Message From: Hope

Re: [WSG] Say no to CSS hacks with branching techniques

2005-10-09 Thread Andrew Krespanis
On 10/9/05, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's totally irrelevant. If 2 days ago you knew your article was flawed then why posting a link to it? I only mentioned it because it was published exactly 365 days earlier on a very similar topic (linking CSS to html files). I was amused

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Christian Montoya
The one thing that jumps immediately to my mind is poetry where the linebreak has serious semantic value. Another might be for code snippets where the author wants to indicate thatthe actaull code continues on one line but is broken up in his example fordeomnstration / readability. This is usually

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Mike Brown
Richard Czeiger wrote: I think the bigger question is can someone proivde an example of when best to use the br / tag in general? What type of content semantically requires a line break. - Original Message - From: Hope Stewart I'm unsure whether I should in fact avoid using br:

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Jon Tan
Tantek Celik talks about the address and br / tags in his Elements of Meaningful XHTML presentation at WE05 available here: http://www.odeo.com/audio/270419/view My suggestion would be that br / is not necessary when the same visual effect can be achieved with span around each address item

[WSG] Placement of company logo

2005-10-09 Thread Hope Stewart
I've only started using web standards this year. This list has been an invaluable source of knowledge (thanks everyone -- keep it up!). There was a thread earlier this year that discussed how images that are presentational and not part of the content should be placed as background images through

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Geoff Deering
Vlad Alexander (XStandard) wrote: Hi Hope, There is nothing evil about the br element unless one is using it for visual effect. In your example, you are using br correctly. For addresses, you might want to use the address element instead of p. Regards, -Vlad http://xstandard.com I

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Mordechai Peller
Hope Stewart wrote: pstrongAll correspondence should be addressed to:/strongbr / The Secretarybr / Your Clubbr / PO Box 999br / Anytown VIC 3000/p This may be a good case for an address tag: pAll correspondence should be addressed to:/p address spanThe Secretary/span spanYour Club/span

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Hope Stewart
On 10/10/05 9:47 AM, Jon Tan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tantek Celik talks about the address and br / tags in his Elements of Meaningful XHTML presentation at WE05 available here: http://www.odeo.com/audio/270419/view I was present for Tantek's talk and I thought he said address was used only

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Terrence Wood
Jon Tan said: My suggestion would be that br / is not necessary when the same visual effect can be achieved with span around each address item which is then style span{display:block} with CSS. Each span could have a semantically useful classname or you could look in to the hCard microformat:

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Jan Brasna
pAll correspondence should be addressed to:/p address spanThe Secretary/span spanYour Club/span spanPO Box 999/span spanAnytown VIC 3000/span /address a) This is IMHO not good use for an address element (context matters). b) spans? Why? The're inline and they're overhead here. -- Jan Brasna

Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

2005-10-09 Thread Thierry Koblentz
Hope Stewart wrote: There was a thread earlier this year that discussed how images that are presentational and not part of the content should be placed as background images through the css and not coded into the html with the img. This makes a lot of sense. With all sites I've worked on, I'd

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Hope Stewart wrote: How do others code an address? My feeling is that semantically it should be contained within one paragraph or entity of some sort. But if you were using a screen reader, how would you differentiate one line from the next? Non-CSS browsers dictates where to use br /

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Jon Tan
span has absolutely no semantic value, so unless you are going to apply formatting to each constiuent of the address, or you are going to use the hcard microformat I really see no point in adding page weight simply to avoid using a br / element of two. kind regards Terrence Wood. The hCard

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Jon Tan
I was present for Tantek's talk and I thought he said address was used only for information about the author, not for various adddresses that might be listed on a Contact Us page. I don't recall what he said about br. I'll have to download the podcast and listen to it again -- it will be a

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
Hope Stewart wrote: I was present for Tantek's talk and I thought he said address was used only for information about the author Which holds true if the address is used to mark up: - the contact information for the current site (e.g. if it's a corporate site and you're giving the company's

Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

2005-10-09 Thread Terrence Wood
Hope Stewart said: With all sites I've worked on, I'd say that the company logo falls into this presentational category. But I wasn't aware of this concept for my first few sites, so I have some sites where the company logo is part of the html and others where it is part of the css.

Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

2005-10-09 Thread Lea de Groot
On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 09:51:49 +1000, Hope Stewart wrote: What do others think? I am quite happy to be persuaded otherwise by a sound logical argument/discussion! I have decided to (generally) make the logo part of the html. Its part of the content, the company's branding is an important element

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Lea de Groot
On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 00:47:42 +0100, Jon Tan wrote: My suggestion would be that br / is not necessary when the same visual effect can be achieved with span around each address item which is then style span{display:block} with CSS. Curiosity - why use a span and apply display: block? Why not

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Mordechai Peller
Mike Brown wrote: Ok, I'll bite and ask why would you not use br / in the address example above? Aren't the semantics of an address that the different elements are (usually) on separate lines? You answered your own question: Parts of an address are *usually*, but *not always*, written on

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Jon Tan
pstrongAll correspondence should be addressed to:/strongbr / The Secretarybr / Your Clubbr / PO Box 999br / Anytown VIC 3000/p How do others code an address? My feeling is that semantically it should be contained within one paragraph or entity of some sort. But if you were using a screen reader,

RE: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Graham Cook
If BR is good enough for W3C, it's good enough for me. Refer: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/address.html The ADDRESS element specifies such information as address, signature and authorship for the current document, and typically placed at the top or bottom of the document. When used with %text,

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Mordechai Peller
Terrence Wood wrote: span has absolutely no semantic value, That's not quite true. The spans used in the previous examples do have semantic value: they group together parts of an address. Admittedly, that might not be much, but it's not nothing.

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Jon Tan
Curiosity - why use a span and apply display: block? Why not just use a div in the first place? What are we gaining that I have missed? Hi Lea, The span use instead of div was to allow for semantic class names as per http://www.microformats.org/wiki/hcard. Maybe it's also personal preference

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Mordechai Peller
Graham Cook wrote: If BR is good enough for W3C, it's good enough for me. Refer: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/address.html Sure, back in March 1995 when HTML 3.0 was released as a recommendation. ** The discussion list for

Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

2005-10-09 Thread Peter Ottery
What do others think? 1 vote here for always making the logo a regular img and part of the html markup. reasoning for me is a pretty simple one. its content! :) cheers, pete ~~~ Peter Ottery ~ Creative Director Daemon Pty Ltd 17 Roslyn Gardens Elizabeth Bay NSW 2011

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Jon Tan
If BR is good enough for W3C, it's good enough for me. Refer: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/address.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/126 - Release Date: 09/10/2005 Hi Graham Without being pedantic, you're

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Mordechai Peller
Lea de Groot wrote: Curiosity - why use a span and apply display: block? Why not just use a div in the first place? What are we gaining that I have missed? It's invalid: !ELEMENT address %Inline; ** The discussion list for

Re: [WSG] Say no to CSS hacks with branching techniques

2005-10-09 Thread James Ellis
Thierry - Umm... the first result: http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=conditional+comments+are+evilbtnG=Searchmeta= is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2005Apr/0027.html One of the functions of this list and group is to implement best practices using W3C standards based

Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

2005-10-09 Thread adam reitsma
My thoughts entirely. I would definitely want the company logo as an IMG element. If your company's site was to be viewed without the use of CSS, would you still want the logo the appear? I would. --adam--On 10/10/05, Peter Ottery [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What do others think?1 vote here for

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Thierry Koblentz
Jon Tan wrote: The span use instead of div was to allow for semantic class names as per http://www.microformats.org/wiki/hcard. Maybe it's also personal preference but I would always seek to minimise the block level grouping elements in my mark-up. span or div, if the purpose of wrapping

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Richard Czeiger
OK so someone pointed out that pre would be better for poetry and I agree but with some reservations. pre does a nice job of handling the visual side of things but from a screen reader's point of view, how do they handle a line break through pre as opposed to br /. Do they pause or say new

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Lea de Groot
On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 03:18:51 +0200, Mordechai Peller wrote: It's invalid: !ELEMENT address %Inline; What? No, this is used instead of an address element. No one suggested we should put divs inside an address. Jon's reply of matching the hcard microformat is a good one :) Thank you, Jon.

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Jon Tan
span or div, if the purpose of wrapping these lines is just to make them behave as block elements, then why not wrapping only 2 our of 4? If it was pure presenation, sure, but this was with reference to sematics. A hCard (which was the original idea of the reply) needs more:

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Geoff Deering
Mordechai Peller wrote: Graham Cook wrote: If BR is good enough for W3C, it's good enough for me. Refer: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/address.html Sure, back in March 1995 when HTML 3.0 was released as a recommendation. It hasn't changed.

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Mordechai Peller
Jon Tan wrote: It's arguable whether address applies to the whole resource or just a document within it, In many cases, the contact information for a document and that of its site are the same. This is especially true on a Contact Us or an About Us type page.

Re: [WSG] Say no to CSS hacks with branching techniques

2005-10-09 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
James Ellis wrote: One of the functions of this list and group is to implement best practices using W3C standards based development. These conditionals you talk about are a Microsoft addition to workaround bugs in their software (what happened to fixing the bugs?), like coloured scrollbars

Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

2005-10-09 Thread Hope Stewart
On 10/10/05 11:25 AM, adam reitsma [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would definitely want the company logo as an IMG element. If your company's site was to be viewed without the use of CSS, would you still want the logo the appear? I would. Really, really good point! Thanks, I hadn't thought of

Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

2005-10-09 Thread Richard Czeiger
However, there is an argument that has the logo in the CSS particularly for branding purposes. Hear me out... You put the logo in the CSS. Nice and big and branded etc... Then you make a special logo for, oh I don't know, mobile devices. Small, crisp, pixel perfect. Now your users can see

Re: [WSG] Say no to CSS hacks with branching techniques

2005-10-09 Thread Thierry Koblentz
James, One of the functions of this list and group is to implement best practices using W3C standards based development. These conditionals you talk about are a Microsoft addition to workaround bugs in their software (what happened to fixing the bugs?), like coloured scrollbars and DirectX

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Terrence Wood
I need to rephrase what I said earlier. If you are using the hcard microformat, or you want to apply styles to each constiuent use span. If the previous conditions are not true, then use br, because it has much semantic value as span and uses less markup. span is a generic container for language

RE: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Craig Rippon
Crikey, I use br / all the time. I did not know I was being so naughty. -Original Message- From: Hope Stewart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 10 October 2005 8:48 AM To: Web Standards Group Subject: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br I'm getting the hang of this whole Web Standards way

RE: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Peter Firminger
This thread is a clear case of why non-standards developers laugh at us (Web Standards Zealots) and justifiably say we're irrelevant. We're arguing over a line break! Forget the context (but a postal or street address is a fine example of the need for a line break in the way most (en) people

Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

2005-10-09 Thread Hope Stewart
Now that's a good argument, Richard! And just when I had been persuaded to use img. hm. On the second website I ever made using web standards I do have one logo for browsers and a cut-down version for print. But when I was making the site, I didn't know about putting images in the background

Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

2005-10-09 Thread Thierry Koblentz
Richard Czeiger wrote: Doing it this way IS good branding. It's also about controlling HOW you want your logo to appear in certain context. Anyone that's written a Corporate Style Guide will know what I'm talking about... Good point. This Image Replacement method [1] allows this type of

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Alan Trick
1. Why use spans and not divs when divs are already block level elements. No need for CSS styling. 2. The main compelling reason to use br's is because semanically that is the right way to do it. Not a big deal I though because a line break is a fairly semantically neurtal thing anyways.

Re: *****SPAM***** Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

2005-10-09 Thread Richard Czeiger
I prefer the following IR: div id=masthead h1a href=index.html title=The Company Name Web SiteCompany Name/a/h1 /div in the stylesheet: #masthead h1 { margin: 0px; padding: 0px; } a { width: Xpx; height: Ypx; overflow: hidden; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; padding-top: Xpx;

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Buddy Quaid
Peter Firminger wrote: This thread is a clear case of why non-standards developers laugh at us (Web Standards Zealots) and justifiably say we're irrelevant. We're arguing over a line break! Forget the context (but a postal or street address is a fine example of the need for a line break in the

Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

2005-10-09 Thread Thierry Koblentz
Richard Czeiger wrote: That way you don't get clear.gif going in your otherwise semantically nice mark up :o) ... but that way you don't get a clickable logo ;) Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for

Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

2005-10-09 Thread adam reitsma
oh dear is it just me, or does this TIP method seem like the modern-day version of the spacer gif? On 10/10/05, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Richard Czeiger wrote: Doing it this way IS good branding. It's also about controlling HOW you want your logo to appear in certain context.

Re: *****SPAM***** Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

2005-10-09 Thread Richard Czeiger
Umm actually you do.. Check out www.courtappearances.com.au to see what I'm talking about. Here's the CSS for that: http://www.courtappearances.com.au/styles/style.css R :o) - Original Message - From: Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent:

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Richard Czeiger
I dont' know how it works in the big leagues over at the W3C but I imagine that there's a fair amount of discussion internally about every single little bit they put into their specs. Also, I have a stong feeling that our little mailing list here actually is a significant player into what the

Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

2005-10-09 Thread Terry Bunter
Sorry if this has been discussed before and it may be a little of topic of this thread but I have always wondered why h1 would be used in the header of the page for a logo. I have always thought the h1 element should be the main heading for the content eg. h1About Us/h1 pcontent.../p This

Re: [WSG] Stop the Presses! Announcing the supercool search plugi n!

2005-10-09 Thread Alan Trick
Not much to wory about though. You can download the file open it with a simple text editor and read it. === standardistas.src = # Rollyo Search - Sherlock Plug-in SEARCH name=Standardistas description = Standards-based web development resources method=GET

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Christian Montoya
On 10/9/05, Richard Czeiger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK so someone pointed out that pre would be better for poetry That was me. pre does a nice job of handling the visual side of things but from ascreen reader's point of view, how do they handle a line break through preas opposed to br /. Do

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Christian Montoya
On 10/9/05, Buddy Quaid [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter Firminger wrote:This thread is a clear case of why non-standards developers laugh at us (WebStandards Zealots) and justifiably say we're irrelevant.We're arguing over a line break! Forget the context (but a postal or street address is a fine

[WSG] site check: liquid.rdpdesign.com

2005-10-09 Thread Christian Montoya
I just (hopefully) finished a somewhat complex layout. It's liquid, and has max-width for all the good browsers. As for IE, it has some _javascript_ that forces IE to implement max-width. After that, it's just an untamed liquid layout for the IE users without _javascript_... who probably don't

[WSG] 2nd Attempt: Main Menu Collapses, Expands in IE FF

2005-10-09 Thread standards
Good morning all, I've racked my brain, but can't seem to figure out the problem. I just launched my site's redesign (www.webnetdesignstudios.com), and although I'm pleased with the initial results I'm still addressing a few bugs. The one that bothers me the most is the fact that the main menu

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br

2005-10-09 Thread Richard Czeiger
Hey Christian. Actually I find when reading an address (or telling it to someone else) I do pause after certain elements: street, suburb, state and postcode (these seem to go togetherfor my internal voice - NSW 2011 - almost like a license plate) Saying the whole address wihout pausing