Re: [WSG] Accessibility: Default placeholders

2005-11-15 Thread Geoff Deering
Andy Kirkwood, Motive wrote: Hi Kevin, Nice example, top marks ;). Sometimes these discussions can get a little abstract and one (real world) example can help make the discussion less murky. Geoff, I understand your pain with regard to traditional (print) designers and the often rocky

[WSG] hover div fill query

2005-11-15 Thread ivanovitch
Dear all I've been trying very hard to propel myself into the 21st century and apply web standards and use good CSS as much as possible, but I'm stuck on getting a div to honour a hover state that I am trying to build. Guidance appreciated... The demo page is at http://imeet.com.au/aa2/ - it's

RE: [WSG] Altering a Valid (X)HTML with DHTML = Is it still REAL LY valid?

2005-11-15 Thread Jamie Mason
Title: RE: [WSG] Altering a Valid (X)HTML with DHTML = Is it still REAL LY valid? Fantastic, thanks a lot Ben that makes a lot of sense. Best Regards, Jamie Mason Skybet.com -Original Message- From: Ben Curtis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 14 November 2005 17:57 To:

RE: [WSG] Accessibility: Default placeholders

2005-11-15 Thread Patrick Lauke
Geoff Deering The problem is that web designers are now implementing designs that convey meaning to form controls, that they are not intending to imply in their design, Which, again, is a sign of a bad designer, and a problem that should be solved by educating the designer, not simply

RE: [WSG] UDM navigation issues with standards and validity

2005-11-15 Thread Townson, Chris
I need some information on UDM (http://www.udm4.com/) navigation as a web standard navigation. The reason I am looking into this is the need to resolve issues with drop-down menus go behind select field in IE. As some of us knows that there are inherent flaws/problems with IE Window controls

RE: [WSG] UDM navigation issues with standards and validity

2005-11-15 Thread Jamie Mason
Title: RE: [WSG] UDM navigation issues with standards and validity You have to place an iframe at the same size one z-index layer lower than the menu to fix this: look at the tipfix() script I've done at www.skybet.com, it applies itself to my green tooltip script ttip(). Hope this helps,

Re: [WSG] Help with menu

2005-11-15 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor
As a reminder, at this point you cannot safely apply widths to any elements that have a border, padding or a margin. In the case you need to apply width adn one of the others mentioned, safest best is to insert a nested div/span with the padding applied etc to break it up. This has long

Re: [WSG] Help with menu

2005-11-15 Thread James O'Neill
Joseph: Interesting. Do you have something that I can reference for this? Thierry: I will take a look at that tonight. Thanks guys!On 11/15/05, Joseph R. B. Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As a reminder, at this point you cannot safely apply widths to any elements that have a border, padding or

[WSG] Vertical alignment of columns

2005-11-15 Thread CCE
Hello, I wonder if anyone could shed any light on this problem? My StyleMaster created web-site is at: http://ito.gn.apc.org Note: this problem does not occur in Firefox 1.07--just in IE. I have a 3 column set up with header and footer created by the Stylemaster layout editor. I also later

Re: [WSG] Help with menu

2005-11-15 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor
I'm not sure...about a physical reference but here's an example: http://sitesbyjoe.com/box_examples.htm It seems to work flawlessly, and its simplicity makes me feel good about using this approach. It also frees me from having to stick hacks in to try and please the browsers. Joe Taylor

Re: [WSG] Help with menu

2005-11-15 Thread The Visual Process
I'm confused at your suggestion, why add extra markup when you just need to use the box model hack in the css http://tantek.com/CSS/Examples/boxmodelhack.html Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote: I'm not sure...about a physical reference but here's an example: http://sitesbyjoe.com/box_examples.htm

Re: [WSG] Help with menu

2005-11-15 Thread josh
What you have to remember to do is subtract any margins, padding, and borders you have defined for that element. For instance... div id=onenbsp;/div div#one { width:300px; background-color:#FF; } ... displays a div that's 300px wide. But if you want to pad it's contents you need to

Re: [WSG] Help with menu

2005-11-15 Thread Charlie Bartlett
Because it is a hack, I tend to use the same technique as Joesph, I think its best to avoid hacks wherever possible. Charlie http://www.bartlettdesign.co.uk On 11/15/05, The Visual Process [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm confused at your suggestion, why add extra markup when you just needto use the

[WSG] news scroller and standards

2005-11-15 Thread Giles Clark
I have a client who is insisting on having a newscroller on his front page. While there are many options, Java, Flash, DHTML, open to me to fulfil the scroller request I just wondered what anyone felt was the most standards compatible solution? Many thanks

Re: [WSG] Help with menu

2005-11-15 Thread The Visual Process
Hmmm I disagree, with the hack you can change it from the one css file in the future, with your method you add unnecessary markup to the xhtml. I'd rather use a hack than have bloated markup. (Although these days I use the conditional comment to separate out style sheets when needed which

Re: [WSG] news scroller and standards

2005-11-15 Thread josh
Really there aren't any issues with Javascript and there are more than a few ways you could present the data utilizing different javascript techniques. Flash is a pretty simplistic and very versatile solution also. I think it depends on 1) whether it's important that the news scroller be

Re: [WSG] Help with menu

2005-11-15 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor
The elaborate on Charlie's statement, the hacks will at some point bite us on the rear end. There's a huge possibility we'll be going back and re-fixing those fixes. I'm too lazy to put myself in that position, which is why I chose this profession in the first place. Joe Taylor

Re: [WSG] news scroller and standards

2005-11-15 Thread Christian Montoya
I have a client who is insisting on having a newscroller on his front page. While there are many options, Java, Flash, DHTML, open to me to fulfil the scroller request I just wondered what anyone felt was the most standards compatible solution? Many thanks Java has the same problems as

Re: [WSG] Help with menu

2005-11-15 Thread Thierry Koblentz
Charlie Bartlett wrote: Because it is a hack, I tend to use the same technique as Joesph, I think its best to avoid hacks wherever possible. But using an extra DIV like this is also a hack. And not better IMO, since it mixes structure and presentation. My approach is to *not* mix dimensions

Re: [WSG] news scroller and standards

2005-11-15 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor
If you mean a vertical scroller that scrolls by hand, you can steal this one I made (CSS) way back: http://www.ventnorcity.org/ If he want marquee scrolling or auto vertical scrolling, tell the client that its just plain bad taste - yuck! Just kidding. Joe Taylor http://sitesbyjoe.com

RE: [WSG] news scroller and standards

2005-11-15 Thread Patrick Lauke
[EMAIL PROTECTED] I think it depends on 1) whether it's important that the news scroller be accessible by search engines ...or, you know...*actual people* trying to use the site... P Patrick H. Lauke Web Editor / University of Salford

Re: [WSG] news scroller and standards

2005-11-15 Thread The Visual Process
As pointed out already there are plenty of Javascript options which are standards compliant, try google. However scrollers look horrible, you may want to go for something like they have one the bbc news website, http://news.bbc.co.uk/ (see LATEST:) not only is it easier to read than scrolling

Re: [WSG] Help with menu

2005-11-15 Thread Charlie Bartlett
The reason I use this technique rather that the box model hack, is because we cannot guarantee that the box model hack will work in future browsers, I know its probably not going to be a big deal to fix it, knocking out a couple of lines of css shouldn't take long, but I prefer not to have clients

[WSG] horizontal scroll on menu

2005-11-15 Thread kvnmcwebn
Hello, A client has requested that a long menu be contained in a fixed hieght situation with a vertical scroll bar. Im doing a test with code from the list o matic site. Heres an example. http://www.mcmonagle.biz/otinavtest.htm the problem is that its hard to loose the horizontal scroll bar

Re: [WSG] Help with menu

2005-11-15 Thread Thierry Koblentz
Charlie Bartlett wrote: The reason I use this technique rather that the box model hack, is because we cannot guarantee that the box model hack will work in future browsers, I know its probably not going to be a big deal to fix it, knocking out a couple of lines of css shouldn't take long, but

Re: [WSG] horizontal scroll on menu

2005-11-15 Thread The Visual Process
You could try adding overflow: hidden; to .navcontainer ul which removes the horizontal scrollbar for me, not tested in IE only firefox. Hope thats of use. kvnmcwebn wrote: Hello, A client has requested that a long menu be contained in a fixed hieght situation with a vertical scroll bar.

Re: [WSG] horizontal scroll on menu

2005-11-15 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor
This appears to be a box model width issue. You have a couple of options. 1. Use a hack to send a thinner width to firefox (adds padding to width) 2. Remove any padding/margins/borders from elements that have a specified width 3. My favorite (and in discussion currently on this list) is to

RE: [WSG] news scroller and standards

2005-11-15 Thread Giles Clark
Thanks The Visual Process. As pointed out already there are plenty of Javascript options which are standards compliant, try google. However scrollers look horrible, you may want to go for something like not only is it easier to read than scrolling text it looks better overall. I couldn't agree

RE: [WSG] horizontal scroll on menu

2005-11-15 Thread Ted Drake
There is the overflow-y: scroll; property to force a scroll bar on the vertical axis. You will still need to manage the width of your list to work with the new scrollbar. Ted -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of kvnmcwebn Sent: Tuesday,

Re: [WSG] Help with menu

2005-11-15 Thread Tom Livingston
On Nov 15, 2005, at 12:20 PM, Thierry Koblentz wrote: It is a matter of moving down the padding declaration. This is essentially the same as adding the extra div. div pfoo/p /div Apply the padding to the p instead of hacking the div. It's the same difference. Right Thierry? ;-)

RE: [WSG] horizontal scroll on menu

2005-11-15 Thread kvnmcwebn
brillant thanks, Adding overflow: hidden; to .navcontainer ul does exactly what i need it to in firefox-i.e didnt respond to it. http://www.mcmonagle.biz/otinavtest.htm Ted: Adding the overflow: y-scroll property takes care of ff and ie. -thanks Joseph: I tried wrapping the lot in the

[WSG] safari, png, and me

2005-11-15 Thread Ted Drake
Safari has been a source of four-letter words grumbled in a low voice from me for a while. I don't use it as my test machine and so I lack the intimate knowledge of its color rendering behavior. However, I have noticed a difference in Safari with background colors and was hoping someone on this

Re: [WSG] news scroller and standards

2005-11-15 Thread Terrence Wood
Ask him if he can point out any that he *uses* himself on a regular basis. T. On 16 Nov 2005, at 6:07 AM, Giles Clark wrote: Thanks The Visual Process. As pointed out already there are plenty of Javascript options which are standards compliant, try google. However scrollers look

Re: [WSG] safari, png, and me

2005-11-15 Thread Jan Brasna
Isn't an exaple of PNG gamma corection? Safari 1.2.x, 1.3.x/2.x? -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See

RE: [WSG] safari, png, and me

2005-11-15 Thread Ted Drake
Test machine was 1.3.1, what is the solution? I didn't find anything on PNG Gamma correction. Ted -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jan Brasna Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 10:23 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG]

Re: [WSG] Help with menu

2005-11-15 Thread Thierry Koblentz
Tom Livingston wrote: This is essentially the same as adding the extra div. div pfoo/p /div Apply the padding to the p instead of hacking the div. It's the same difference. Right Thierry? ;-) Exactly! It's about constructing the box, not fixing it ;-) Thierry |

Re: [WSG] safari, png, and me

2005-11-15 Thread Jan Brasna
Test machine was 1.3.1 1.3 should be fine :/ what is the solution? PNGCrush or something similar to cut off the gamma info. However it's not 100% - see below. I didn't find anything on PNG Gamma correction. Ah, sry, my bad, I forgot the sources:

Re: [WSG] safari, png, and me

2005-11-15 Thread The Visual Process
You may have seen it but this has some detailed info: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/png-gamma/ Ted Drake wrote: Safari has been a source of four-letter words grumbled in a low voice from me for a while. I don't use it as my test machine and so I lack the intimate knowledge of its color rendering

[WSG] Screen reader users: Label text for search field?

2005-11-15 Thread Andy Kirkwood, Motive
Hi, (Apologies for the re-post, thought this might have been buried under the flurry of CSS queries.) Currently there seem to be a few different approaches (with regional variation) to marking up a simple search form. -Search for [Input field] [Button: Go] -[Input field: Text: Search

Re: [WSG] Accessibility: Default placeholders

2005-11-15 Thread Geoff Deering
Patrick Lauke wrote: Geoff Deering The problem is that web designers are now implementing designs that convey meaning to form controls, that they are not intending to imply in their design, Which, again, is a sign of a bad designer, and a problem that should be solved by

Re: [WSG] Accessibility: Default placeholders

2005-11-15 Thread Patrick H. Lauke
Geoff Deering wrote: How do you know what device configuration is receiving your design? Because if you do not, and cannot be absolutely sure your design is not clashing with this principle, you cannot *ensure* you have succeeded. But that is true of pretty much any element and situation

Re: [WSG] news scroller and standards

2005-11-15 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun
Giles Clark wrote: I have a client who is insisting on having a newscroller on his front page. While there are many options, Java, Flash, DHTML, open to me to fulfil the scroller request I just wondered what anyone felt was the most standards compatible solution? Maybe, just maybe, this is

Re: [WSG] news scroller and standards

2005-11-15 Thread Tim Burgan
As a nice looking example: Apple's news ticker www.apple.com. Tim The Visual Process wrote: As pointed out already there are plenty of Javascript options which are standards compliant, try google. However scrollers look horrible, you may want to go for something like they have one the bbc

Re: [WSG] horizontal scroll on menu

2005-11-15 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor
You do want to set the width on that div, that way the nested elements stretch to its width. kvnmcwebn wrote: brillant thanks, Adding overflow: hidden; to .navcontainer ul does exactly what i need it to in firefox-i.e didnt respond to it. http://www.mcmonagle.biz/otinavtest.htm Ted:

Re: [WSG] Accessibility: Default placeholders

2005-11-15 Thread Geoff Deering
Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Geoff Deering wrote: How do you know what device configuration is receiving your design? Because if you do not, and cannot be absolutely sure your design is not clashing with this principle, you cannot *ensure* you have succeeded. But that is true of pretty much

[WSG] Can't select text on IE

2005-11-15 Thread CHAUDHRY, Bhuvnesh
Title: Can't select text on IE Hi, I have written an html page based on CSS layout. The page has a parent div tag which contains many other div tags including one for Side Menu, one for Masthead and one for the Content. The problem: Using IE6, I am unable to select a part of the text from

RE: [WSG] Can't select text on IE

2005-11-15 Thread Focas, Grant
Title: Can't select text on IE IE has a bug where you cant select text in your content area if it is positioned absolutely. Try relative positioning and use margins. Grant From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of CHAUDHRY, Bhuvnesh Sent: Wednesday, 16

RE: [WSG] Can't select text on IE

2005-11-15 Thread Paul Noone
Title: Can't select text on IE Why do you want to select the text? This might go some way towards providing an adequate solution that doesn't involve totally overhauling your stylsheet. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of CHAUDHRY, BhuvneshSent: Wednesday, 16

RE: [WSG] Can't select text on IE

2005-11-15 Thread CHAUDHRY, Bhuvnesh
Title: Message Paul, It a simplecopy and paste requirement. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul NooneSent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 15:39 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] Can't select text on IE

RE: [WSG] Can't select text on IE

2005-11-15 Thread Paul Noone
Title: Message Then sadly you'll need to dispense with any absolute divs thatobstruct the flow of the content you're trying to select. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of CHAUDHRY, BhuvneshSent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 3:48 PMTo:

RE: [WSG] Can't select text on IE

2005-11-15 Thread Paul Noone
Title: Message Or...View Source and copy. Assuming that's an option. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of CHAUDHRY, BhuvneshSent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 3:48 PMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] Can't select text on IE Paul, It a simplecopy

[WSG] snug a border around diff sized pix

2005-11-15 Thread csslist
I have a div that shows phots dynamically that are different sizes and would like to throw a 1px border aound them, I can't seem to get them to hug the photo, anyone got any good tricks for this?tia

RE: [WSG] snug a border around diff sized pix

2005-11-15 Thread Paul Noone
Add a 1px border to either a or img tags within the DIV's #class. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of csslistSent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 4:45 PMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] snug a border around diff sized pix I have a div that shows phots

Re: [WSG] snug a border around diff sized pix

2005-11-15 Thread adam reitsma
Have you tried using CSS to put a border directly around the image itself?for example, if your html is like this:div class=photoimg src="" alt=me at the beach/div then your css could be as follows:.photo img { border: 2px solid pink; }Good luck!On 11/16/05, csslist [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:I have

RE: [WSG] snug a border around diff sized pix

2005-11-15 Thread csslist
yup forgot bout those, thanks :)From: "Paul Noone" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2005 1:05 AMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] snug a border around diff sized pix Add a 1px border to either a or img tags within the DIV's #class. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]