Re: [WSG] University textbook or other resources?

2005-11-23 Thread mani naidu
Click the link below  join this SIZZLING HOT and Brand NEW PAYING Program ! http://www.kbcmail.com/?uid=188476   I won't go on to explain how you'll earn because  it's all mentioned very clearly on the site itself. Just remember DO NOT WASTE TIME !  Hurry  join it now, or else your friends will join through someone else  you'll
 miss out on 2$ per friend !  And get the steps right. 1. Join for a KBCmail.com email Address. 2. Get your KBCmail.com ID number.
  That's it. You can make 1000's of $$$ in no time !!!   
		 
Enjoy this Diwali with Y! India Click here

RE: [WSG] A little help with a charity site please

2005-11-23 Thread mani naidu
Click the link below  join this SIZZLING HOT and Brand NEW PAYING Program ! http://www.kbcmail.com/?uid=188476   I won't go on to explain how you'll earn because  it's all mentioned very clearly on the site itself. Just remember DO NOT WASTE TIME !  Hurry  join it now, or else your friends will join through someone else  you'll
 miss out on 2$ per friend !  And get the steps right. 1. Join for a KBCmail.com email Address. 2. Get your KBCmail.com ID number.
  That's it. You can make 1000's of $$$ in no time !!!   
		 
Enjoy this Diwali with Y! India Click here

Re: [WSG] Horizontal CSS based Navigation

2005-11-23 Thread Bernard Sandberg



Can anyone point me in the right direction for a CSS based
horizontal navigation using UL's and LI's, where the
first Level of nav uses images!?

Regards 
Jack Bennie 
A good place to start would be at

http://css.maxdesign.com.au/index.htm , where you click the
'Listamatic' option.
Even though not all of them is about images, you can easily edit the code
to insert your own images! :-)
Bernard



Re: [WSG] A little help with a charity site please

2005-11-23 Thread Peter Johnson

Mani,

This group is not an outlet for you to make money.
Besides, one would assume that a group of web designers would have their 
email addresses sorted out already.


However, if you require a designer to overhaul that nasty website, 
you've come to the right place.



Up late and tired,
~pixelpete


mani naidu wrote:


 Click the link below  join this
   SIZZLING HOT and Brand NEW PAYING Program !
   http://www.kbcmail.com/?uid=188476

   I won't go on to explain how you'll 
earn because
   it's all mentioned very clearly on the 
site itself.

   Just remember DO NOT WASTE TIME !
   Hurry  join it now, or else your 
friends will join through someone else  you'll miss out on 2$ per 
friend !


   And get the steps right.
   1. Join for a KBCmail.com email 
Address.

   2. Get your KBCmail.com ID number.

   That's it.
   You can make 1000's of $$$ in 
no time !!!
 



Enjoy this Diwali with Y! India Click here 
http://in.promos.yahoo.com/fabmall/index.html 


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[WSG]My first take at standards and CSS did not go so well, Need Help!

2005-11-23 Thread Jack Saat




Hi Everyone,

Well here is my problem I am a newbie with CSS and web standards and my
first take end up look crap in Firefox but "great" in IE?
Also my _javascript_ Moo-FX effects not are working anywhere. I trying
all day not and it drive me crazy I do not understand what is wrong
with it.

Here is the Temp URL:
http://www.estudiomcarmona.com.ar/test/

Please help me out.

Thanks
Jack



Geoff Pack wrote:

  I agree with Bert - use the start attribute and a transitional dtd. It's cleaner, more concise, and captures exactly the semantics of what you are doing. You don't need the div around the text info though.

Of course you could always write out the first 39 empty list-items and hide them :)

Geoff Pack




Somaya Langley wrote:
  
  
Hi All - 

I'm putting together a template for a contents list page for the
National Library of Australia's online pictures delivery system.  We
need to start an ordered list on a page from a number other than 1, as
the lists could be quite long and so will be chunked into a set per
page.

There are two solutions...
the first, for example: 
ol start="40"
li 
divtext info in here/div
/li
...

or, the second:
ol
li
divnumber inserted in here from our digital content management
system/div
divtext info in here/div
/li
...

While the first would be more elegant, start is now a depricated
attribute.

What do people suggest?

Thanks
Somaya


  
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Re: [WSG] Character encoding mismatch

2005-11-23 Thread Paul Collins



Hi Richard, 

Thanks for that info, the guy who runs the server 
here has fixed the server to run UTF-8, so no problems there. 

The XHTML reference was really good. I had started 
using the apos; XHTML tag for #39; not realising that it wouldn't work 
for browsers that don't read XHTML (such as IE5). Glad I got to read that one 
before we went live! I have now changed it to rsquo; 

What's your opinion on using Character Entities 
over Hexadecimal values. I can't seem to get a clear response on which is 
better.

Thanks again.
Paul


  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Richard Ishida 
  To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
  Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 6:54 
  PM
  Subject: RE: [WSG] Character encoding 
  mismatch
  Thanks, Susan, for pointing to that stuff.Paul, you if 
  you're using Apache you may also find this particularly useful:"Setting 
  'charset' information in .htaccess"http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-htaccess-charsetThat 
  would allow you to continue using utf-8, which I think is a good 
  move.Also, you may find the following useful wrt using character 
  references:"Using character entities and NCRs"http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-escapesHope 
  that helps,RIRichard 
  IshidaInternationalization LeadW3Chttp://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/http://www.w3.org/International/http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/ 
  -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Susanne 
  J├Ąger Sent: 10 November 2005 12:21 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
  Subject: Re: [WSG] Character encoding mismatch  Paul Collins 
  wrote, On 10.11.2005 12:44:   I thought this was the 
  correct way to add special characters for   XHTML, but what I am 
  reading now seems to contradict this.  This is the   part 
  of standards where I get a bit confused. Does anyone have any   
  advice or know of some good articles where they explain  this in 
  simple   terms??  Have a look at the material in 
  W3Cs  internationalization-Section W3C I18N Topic Index  
  http://www.w3.org/International/resource-index.html#charset 
   I like the Tutorial: Character sets  encodings in XHTML, 
   HTML and CSS  http://www.w3.org/International/tutorials/tutorial-char-enc/#choosing 
  At least they try to explain the rather complicated stuff for  
  everyone. ;-)  HTH Susanne   
  -- http://sujag.de - Webentwicklung und 
  -beratung  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Lottumstr. 22, 10119 Berlin, Tel: 030 - 440 483 47 
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[WSG] More on character encoding

2005-11-23 Thread Jona Decker
I am assuming there are other web developers in Exchange environments
that might have some insight into a problem I'm having. It's
standards-related, I promise.

We're a company that utilizes an Exchange server for mail and
scheduling. We have lots of email addresses and lots of email
distribution groups. Our Net Admins have established a naming convention
for distribution groups that enforces a desired sort in Outlook. Here is
a recent example:

%Company Code-Cross-Functional Team (Distribution Group)

My problem mostly revolves around this fairly new cross-functional
team naming convention. You may have noticed the problem already. The
group name starts with a percent sign. That means their email address
starts with a percent sign. If everyone stayed completely within Outlook
for email generation, that'd be just fine...Outlook doesn't care. But
webpages with mailto links that fire up a mail client, even Outlook,
*do*. And cross-functional teams in our company are small enough that
they want to link to their email address in simple mailto links on their
various webpages.

The percent sign is an escape character. On its own, a mail client (even
Outlook) looks two characters beyond the percent sign and tries to
figure out what character you really meant. Since in my case, this is
usually %ME it's outside of the conventions for escaped characters.
Outlook interprets %ME as ?.

I don't believe that using a percent sign in an email address is best
form. But my opinion doesn't matter. I'll need to use standards
published by recognized bodies of knowledge to make my case. The W3C
helps a little, calling a percent sign a reserved character not for use
in URIs. IANA establishes that mailtos are indeed URIs in RFC2368. This
is helpful in establishing that mailto is a URI scheme, but this RFC
also suggests escaping the escape (%25) to make a percent sign. IETF in
its RFC3986 suggests the same thing but reads a little more ominous
about using percents. Gah! Are there any other resources people are
aware of that may help me make this argument using standards rationale?

Jona
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Re: [WSG] More on character encoding

2005-11-23 Thread Charlie Bartlett
this link might help 
http://www.remote.org/jochen/mail/info/chars.html

Charlie
http://www.bartlettdesign.co.uk
On 11/23/05, Jona Decker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I am assuming there are other web developers in Exchange environmentsthat might have some insight into a problem I'm having. It's
standards-related, I promise.We're a company that utilizes an Exchange server for mail andscheduling. We have lots of email addresses and lots of emaildistribution groups. Our Net Admins have established a naming convention
for distribution groups that enforces a desired sort in Outlook. Here isa recent example:%Company Code-Cross-Functional Team (Distribution Group)My problem mostly revolves around this fairly new cross-functional
team naming convention. You may have noticed the problem already. Thegroup name starts with a percent sign. That means their email addressstarts with a percent sign. If everyone stayed completely within Outlook
for email generation, that'd be just fine...Outlook doesn't care. Butwebpages with mailto links that fire up a mail client, even Outlook,*do*. And cross-functional teams in our company are small enough that
they want to link to their email address in simple mailto links on theirvarious webpages.The percent sign is an escape character. On its own, a mail client (evenOutlook) looks two characters beyond the percent sign and tries to
figure out what character you really meant. Since in my case, this isusually %ME it's outside of the conventions for escaped characters.Outlook interprets %ME as ?.I don't believe that using a percent sign in an email address is best
form. But my opinion doesn't matter. I'll need to use standardspublished by recognized bodies of knowledge to make my case. The W3Chelps a little, calling a percent sign a reserved character not for usein URIs. IANA establishes that mailtos are indeed URIs in RFC2368. This
is helpful in establishing that mailto is a URI scheme, but this RFCalso suggests escaping the escape (%25) to make a percent sign. IETF inits RFC3986 suggests the same thing but reads a little more ominous
about using percents. Gah! Are there any other resources people areaware of that may help me make this argument using standards rationale?Jona**The discussion list for
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[WSG] Re: University textbook or other resources?

2005-11-23 Thread Virginia DeBolt
Title: Re: University textbook or other resources?



Hi everyone,
New member, first post, although youll find I mostly lurk. 

The two books by Knowbility partners arent exactly university focused textbooks, but are very good for training in accessibility.

http://www.knowbility.org/air-interactive/?content=resources

Virginia

ivanovitch wrote:

Folks

I've been asked if there are useful university-focused textbooks or
other resources suitable for teaching accessible web design.

So far 'Effective website development' (Darlington) and 'Principles of
web site design' (Skalr) have been proposed as possible options.

Thoughts?


--
Virginia DeBolt
Author: Integrated HTML and CSS: A Smarter, Faster Way to Learn
Blog: Web Teacher  Resources for Teaching Web Design: Book Reviews
http://www.webteacher.ws
--






Re: [WSG] More on character encoding

2005-11-23 Thread Jon Tan

Jona Decker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

[...]Are there any other resources people are aware of that may help me 
make this argument using standards rationale?


According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Email_address the character is 
valid in the local part of an address according to  RFC 2822. However, WCAG 
Checkpoint 14.1 would be appropriate if the email address will be rendered 
on the page at any time:


14.1 Use the clearest and simplest language appropriate for a site's 
content. [Priority 1]

http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/#gl-facilitate-comprehension

Again, if it will be visible checkpoint 13.1 also applies:

13.1 Clearly identify the target of each link. [Priority 2]
Link text should be meaningful enough to make sense when read out of context
http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/#gl-facilitate-navigation

Jon Tan
www.gr0w.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




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RE: [WSG] Horizontal CSS based Navigation

2005-11-23 Thread Jonathan Bloy
On Wed 11/23/2005 1:48 AM, Jack Bennie wrote:
Can anyone point me in the right direction for a CSS
based horizontal navigation using UL's and LI's,
where the first Level of nav uses images!?

You may want to take a look at the article Css Sprites on A List Apart.
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/sprites/

It's a standards-based technique to replace image maps.


---
Jonathan Bloy
Web Services Librarian
Edgewood College Library
Madison, Wisconsin
http://library.edgewood.edu
winmail.dat

[WSG] Efficient CSS Practice Methods

2005-11-23 Thread Chris Kennon

Happy Holidays All,

When between projects, practice is the order of the day, as mastery  
in this field is a fallacy. However, it simply seems counter- 
productive laying out sites that will not be used for personal or  
commercial gain.


This belief begs the question how does one effectively practice CSS?  
Should I continue creating scenarios and templates, or can some   
knowledgeable member share practice methodologies?


Respectfully,
CK

 
 
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Re: [WSG] OT: Need recomendations for a JavaScript/DOM book

2005-11-23 Thread Rik Lomas
I would also recommend the Jeremy Keith book, dead easy to read and understand. There's more information about the book here:http://www.domscripting.com/
On 22/11/05, Steve Clason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 11/22/2005 9:50 AM Ted Drake wrote: I would recommend starting with Domscripting by Jeremy Keith. Then, follow with DHTML Utopia, I don't remember the author of DHTML Utopia.+1 for the Keith book, but be aware many of the examples don't work in
Mozilla browsers, I believe because they lack full support forsetAttribute.Or at least that was my experience--when I played around using Opera itwas much more fun.--Steve Clason
Web Design and DevelopmentBoulder, Colorado, USAwww.topdogstrategy.com(303)818-8590**The discussion list for
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Re: [WSG] why liquid layout is important.

2005-11-23 Thread Rik Lomas
These $100 laptops, at the moment anyway, are only pre-prototype. There isn't even one fully functional version of it yet, and it will be a while until there is. Kofi Annan broke the handle of it when it was unveiled the other day, because he thought it was the real thing, but unfortunately it isn't, it's just a basic model of what it might be like. It's definitely a good idea, but surely, a poor African family would rather sell the laptop for money than keep the laptop if they had the choice...
On 21/11/05, Duckworth, Nigel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I don't think anyone here would disagree that the equitable delivery of and access to information and education is every persons right.I disagree. I'm pretty sure this is not the forum for this topic though.
-Nigel-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
] On Behalf Of Herrod, LisaSent: Sunday, November 20, 2005 7:48 PMTo: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org'Subject: RE: [WSG] why liquid layout is important.
This is a great article Terrance, and while interesting from a design /technology perspective, I think the human side of this story is moreimportant.I'm sure everyone who saw Doug Bowmans presentation at WE05 'Zooming out
of the trenches' http://we05.com/podcast/ was incredibly moved by hispresentation - I heard stories of tears. After all, building tostandards is really about equity isn't it? I don't think anyone here
would disagree that the equitable delivery of and access to informationand education is every persons right.It would be great if we (WSG listers) could come together to work on aproject like this - we all have such great contacts, it would be a very
powerful thing to do. I've been wanting to do something like this for along time, if you are interested too, please contact me.lisa-Original Message-From: Terrence Wood [mailto:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Monday, 21 November 2005 9:28 AMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] why liquid layout is important.
Sorry if this has been commented on in this forum:http://chronicle.com/free/2005/11/2005111602t.htm10 Million 7.5in small screens, pretty sure that will change the face of
the browser market.--Terrence Wood**The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/
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Re: [WSG] Efficient CSS Practice Methods

2005-11-23 Thread Steve Clason

On 11/23/2005 10:16 AM Chris Kennon wrote:

Happy Holidays All,

When between projects, practice is the order of the day, as mastery in 
this field is a fallacy. However, it simply seems counter-productive 
laying out sites that will not be used for personal or commercial gain.


This belief begs the question how does one effectively practice CSS? 
Should I continue creating scenarios and templates, or can some  
knowledgeable member share practice methodologies?


Consider pro bono work for charitable or non-profit organizations. I've 
done dozens of sites for churches, political candidates, neighborhood 
associations, amateur sports teams, political interest groups and so on.


They always appreciate the help (especially if you include a way for 
them to update the content), you get to sharpen your tools and try out 
new techniques with less pressure. And feel good about yourself, help 
the planet


I recommend thinking hard before doing free work for organizations with 
paid staff--after all, if they can afford to pay people they should pay 
you--but I sometimes do if I support the cause enough or if the 
organization is very small (a small church, for instance).

--
Steve Clason
Web Design and Development
Boulder, Colorado, USA
www.topdogstrategy.com
(303)818-8590

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Re: [WSG] why liquid layout is important.

2005-11-23 Thread Terrence Wood
Rik Lomas said:
 It's definitely a good idea, but surely, a poor African family would
 rather sell the laptop for money than keep the laptop if they had the
 choice...

I'm pretty sure that Africa is not the only distribution point for these
things. Sure food, and health are priorities, but education and knowledge
are handy too... teach a man to fish and all that.

The ultimate goal is to make computers as pervasive as pencil and paper.


kind regards
Terrence Wood.

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Re: [WSG] why liquid layout is important.

2005-11-23 Thread Marilyn Langfeld



I'm pretty sure this is not the forum for this topic though.


-Nigel




Often when we discuss accessibility, we ignore needs of people with  
low or no bandwidth. So I think this topic is a great reminder that  
accessibility is much broader than solely meeting the needs of the  
disabled, although that's clearly a baseline to be met too.


I've been working with the World Health Organization and other UN  
agencies for years. They (at least some folks there) see the need for  
accessible web information in health and development all across the  
world. It's not for us to decide who would have good uses for  
inexpensive computers. I do wonder if adults would let children keep  
such a valuable tool to themselves. I'll be watching to see what  
happens. I also figure that this is a good first step in connecting  
people who are so far unconnected to the Internet. I figure their  
strategy was to raise funds and interest by limiting the project to  
children. But it will certainly spread from there, if it actually  
comes to fruition.


I've worked with a project called Health InterNetwork, which birthed  
HIN Access to Research Initiative at WHO. HIN succeeded in getting  
the really big medical publishers to allow access to lots of medical  
journals to research institutes and health organizations throughout  
the developing world through a WHO sub-site. ( http://www.who.int/ 
hinari/en/ )


I also work with Knowledge Management at WHO ( http://www.who.int/kms/ 
en/ ) I've just finished a report that was presented at WSIS, with  
lots of statistics on ICT and health indicators for the WHO regions,  
for those who are interested in the broad topic. The pdf is available  
at the above address. In the next year, the research on a country  
level will be added to the WHO site and will be published in book form.



Best regards,

Marilyn Langfeld
Langfeldesigns
http://www.langfeldesigns.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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RE: [WSG] Radio New Zealand site relaunch

2005-11-23 Thread kvnmcwebn
The way that it uses the white space is nice
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Re: [WSG]My first take at standards and CSS did not go so well, Need Help!

2005-11-23 Thread Terrence Wood
Jack Saat said:
  Please help me out.

Hi Jack,

It is quite common to end up with designs that work in one browser but not
the other when starting out developing with web standards.

I haven't got access to your page with FF at the moment so I can't often
any advice on the specific problems you may have with your page. However,
I would like to offer some advice on how to approach developing with web
standards - it may save a lot of headaches.

1. Work up your design in a standards compliant browser first (i.e. not
IE). Any browser released in the last couple of years will be fine. I
personally use FF because of it's extension archecture (web developers
toolbar is indespensible), with the occasional check in Opera, and Safari
as I go along. This ensures my design works in the 3 major (standards
compliant) rendering engines: Moz/Ghecko, Opera and Webkit/KHTML.

2. 'Fix' the design for browsers that have patchy standards support but
you must accomodate (i.e. IE6, IE5.5, and any others *if* you know they
form part of your target audience).

Personally, I don't create CSS for v4 browsers, NN7, Opera7. These
browsers get raw html, or occasionally just a basic stylesheet with some
color's but no positioning, or the CSS but no debugging (reason is these
browsers are all optional installations and most people will upgrade
them). I don't specifically support Mac IE5 unless the CSS required to
support it is quick and easy to implement.

3. Keep hacks and workarounds together where possible. Some people suggest
that you shouldn't use hacks, but I've found they can't really be avoided.
I try to group any rendering fixes at the end of my CSS files - that way
they are easy to find and edit and it ensures that the rest of my CSS is
clean and compliant. I use the * html hack, or conditional comments to
deliver CSS to IE.



HTH

kind regards
Terrence Wood.



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RE: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1

2005-11-23 Thread Paul Noone
I wouldn't be too surprised to discover that a little javascript could
manipulate the numbering.

Also, and I'll probably get lynched for this but the following should also
work in a transiational doctype.

ol
  li value=40/li
  ...

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Somaya Langley
Sent: Wednesday, 23 November 2005 4:08 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1

Hi All - 

I'm putting together a template for a contents list page for the National
Library of Australia's online pictures delivery system.  We need to start an
ordered list on a page from a number other than 1, as the lists could be
quite long and so will be chunked into a set per page.

There are two solutions...
the first, for example: 
ol start=40
li
divtext info in here/div
/li
...

or, the second:
ol
li
divnumber inserted in here from our digital content management
system/div divtext info in here/div /li ...

While the first would be more elegant, start is now a depricated attribute.

What do people suggest?

Thanks
Somaya


_
Somaya Langley
Digital Preservations Officer /  Web Audio Analyst

National Library of Australia
Parkes Place
Canberra ACT 2600

ph +61 2 6262 1366
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.musicaustralia.org
http://www.nla.gov.au








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RE: [WSG] Efficient CSS Practice Methods

2005-11-23 Thread Peter Williams
 From: Chris Kennon
 
 This belief begs the question how does one effectively practice CSS?  
 Should I continue creating scenarios and templates, or can some   
 knowledgeable member share practice methodologies?

Chris,

Long before this list existed I used to try and solve all
the problems that came up on the css-d list, I'd create a
simplified test case of the problem area and work on it to
figure out what was causing the problem, then try and find
a fix for it. Replying back to the list with my findings
had the benefit of assisting the original questioner and also
getting peer review of my findings. Discussions would often
bring further info to light and some of us would go away
with more knowledge than we started with. I'm still a member
of css-d, but I rarely have time to investigate or help
very much these days.   http://www.css-discuss.org/

-- 
Peter Williams
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RE: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1

2005-11-23 Thread Geoff Pack


Paul Noone wrote:
 
 Also, and I'll probably get lynched for this but the 
 following should also
 work in a transiational doctype.
 
 ol
   li value=40/li
   ...


Not for using it, just for not quoting it properly ;)




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[WSG] :after, IE, and link text wrapping

2005-11-23 Thread SunUp
Hi folks,

I'm displaying a small image to indicate an external link using this:

a.external:after {
  content: url(media/external.gif);
  padding-left: 2px;
}

Obviously IE doesn't show this, so I've used this in a separate style
sheet for IE:

a.external {
  background: url(media/external.gif) no-repeat 100% 50%;
  padding-right: 15px;
}


The first method produces this, even if the link text wraps:

Some link text here [pic]
or
Some link text
here [pic]

Sweet.

But in IE, when the link text wraps, I get this:

Some link text [pic]
here

IE is misplacing the image in links that wrap, but places them
perfectly correctly if the link is contained in one line.

I'm considering just turning off the pretty [pic] for IE users and
leaving it at that.
Is there a way to make it display the image at the END of the LINK,
instead of at the end of the LINE?
I've messed around w/ placement and padding etc. No joy.

ta,
sunny.
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Re: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1

2005-11-23 Thread Chris Kennon

Hi,

Can someone explain why this incredibly useful attribute:


ol
  li value=40/li



 is deprecated, or is it?

C
On Nov 23, 2005, at 3:44 PM, Geoff Pack wrote:




Paul Noone wrote:



Also, and I'll probably get lynched for this but the
following should also
work in a transiational doctype.

ol
  li value=40/li
  ...




Not for using it, just for not quoting it properly ;)




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RE: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1

2005-11-23 Thread Somaya Langley
Thanks guys.  

Javascript is out, as our internal NLA standards try to avoid where
possible. Value attribute falls into the same category as the start
attribute...

Yes, theoretically you can do things with the counter in CSS, but to
actually do anything meaningful, CSS would really need to be a fully
programmable environment where relationships and variables were possible
and easy to handle.

ON another note...
re:
snip
Can someone explain why this incredibly useful attribute:

 ol
   li value=40/li


  is deprecated, or is it?
/snip


There's a little bit of info here

http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/markdown-discuss/2004-March/000255.htm
l


Thanks
Somaya

_
Somaya Langley
Digital Preservations Officer /  Web Audio Analyst

National Library of Australia
Parkes Place
Canberra ACT 2600

ph +61 2 6262 1366
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.musicaustralia.org
http://www.nla.gov.au

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Re: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1

2005-11-23 Thread Jon Tan

Chris Kennon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Can someone explain why this incredibly useful attribute:

ol
  li value=40/li

 is deprecated, or is it?


It is depreciated ( http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html) although 
it is not obselete therefore will still be supported for backward 
compatibility.


One possible reason could be that it completely destroys the semantics of an 
ordered list by allowing it to be broken up.


I'm curious about the function of the list - does the numbering describe the 
images to make them meaningful in some way? An ordered list spread over 
multiple URIs strikes me as wrong as the list portion referenced by an 
individual URI may have less meaning when dislocated from other portions of 
the list. Something like spreading a library index over different 
rooms[files] in the building[domain]. Is there a reason apart from file size 
/ download time that this list should be spread over multiple pages? I 
assume the archive is huge but if its just a contents list page then 
wouldn't it be hypertext with anchors for blocks and meaningful URIs for 
each image? I assume the library has some kind of tagging system or category 
system to classify images so access to groups of images themselves is 
achieved through that?


Jon Tan
www.gr0w.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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[WSG] CSS Validators

2005-11-23 Thread Geoff Pack

Does anyone know of a downloadable CSS validator (other than the W3C one) that 
I can install on an local server to batch check files on my local network? We 
currently use the WDG html validator, but their CSS validator is not available 
for download.

Cheers
Geoff Pack






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Re: [WSG] :after, IE, and link text wrapping

2005-11-23 Thread Jon Tan

SunUp [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Is there a way to make it display the image at the END of the LINK,
instead of at the end of the LINE?
I've messed around w/ placement and padding etc. No joy.


Hi Sunny

Turning them off for IE has always been my answer. If you realy want the bg 
img in there to indicate an external link one workaround is to add a span 
before the closing /a and apply a bg to that but it's a little verbose.


btw... [off topic] for all of you who may go to the Melbourne bbq *blah* on 
behalf of anyone suffering under winter in the northern hemisphere; when 
people start talking about frisbees I get jealous.


Jon Tan
www.gr0w.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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RE: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1

2005-11-23 Thread Somaya Langley
Perhaps you're right that an ordered list is not the right list to
choose, as it will be chunked and split across pages, however the
scenario is such that:

* a collection of images may contain thousands of items
* the collection is the highest level in the heirachy and so needs a
finding aid in some way to access items within the collection and to
describe relationships that may not be possible at lower levels (not
worth going into, needless to say that there are complex relationships
between items particularly in manuscript collections)
* the way that's been selected is to show a thumbnail icon and the title
or some descriptive metadata
(similar to search results pages on the site:
http://www.musicaustralia.org)
* list of items/images (including file sizes) would be too long that our
usability tests (and commonsense) shows that users are just unable to
scroll through thousands of items - hence chunking is necesssary
* while there is a fairly indepth persistent identification naming
scheme for image files, again it harks back to the relationships that
can't be expressed via the naming scheme and the need to build these
content list pages as a way for users to view large collections

perhaps I'll roll this page back to XHTML transitional so start can be
used, but am hesitant to begin by knowingly working with things that
aren't the way forward so to speak.

Thanks
Somaya


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jon Tan
Sent: Thursday, 24 November 2005 12:29 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1


Chris Kennon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Can someone explain why this incredibly useful attribute:
 ol
   li value=40/li
  is deprecated, or is it?

It is depreciated ( http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html)
although 
it is not obselete therefore will still be supported for backward 
compatibility.

One possible reason could be that it completely destroys the semantics
of an 
ordered list by allowing it to be broken up.

I'm curious about the function of the list - does the numbering describe
the 
images to make them meaningful in some way? An ordered list spread over 
multiple URIs strikes me as wrong as the list portion referenced by an 
individual URI may have less meaning when dislocated from other portions
of 
the list. Something like spreading a library index over different 
rooms[files] in the building[domain]. Is there a reason apart from file
size 
/ download time that this list should be spread over multiple pages? I 
assume the archive is huge but if its just a contents list page then 
wouldn't it be hypertext with anchors for blocks and meaningful URIs for

each image? I assume the library has some kind of tagging system or
category 
system to classify images so access to groups of images themselves is 
achieved through that?

Jon Tan
www.gr0w.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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RE: [WSG] CSS Validators

2005-11-23 Thread Paul Noone
I hazard to mention that Dreamweaver has built-in validation for CSS acrosse
various browsers.

StyleMaster is probably worth checking out, too. Although there are others
on this list far better equipped to dicuss its merits than I. ;)

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Geoff Pack
Sent: Thursday, 24 November 2005 12:43 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] CSS Validators


Does anyone know of a downloadable CSS validator (other than the W3C one)
that I can install on an local server to batch check files on my local
network? We currently use the WDG html validator, but their CSS validator is
not available for download.

Cheers
Geoff Pack






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Re: [WSG] :after, IE, and link text wrapping

2005-11-23 Thread SunUp
Thanks Jon ...

It was suggested that I try span, which I did, but IE still displays
the image at the end of the line, where the long link text wraps,
instead of at the of whole link.

I think I'll just hide it afterall, and IE users can (in the
inimitable words of Dad in The Castle) suffer in their jocks.

thanks,
sunny

On 11/24/05, Jon Tan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 SunUp [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Is there a way to make it display the image at the END of the LINK,
 instead of at the end of the LINE?
 I've messed around w/ placement and padding etc. No joy.

 Hi Sunny

 Turning them off for IE has always been my answer. If you realy want the bg
 img in there to indicate an external link one workaround is to add a span
 before the closing /a and apply a bg to that but it's a little verbose.

 btw... [off topic] for all of you who may go to the Melbourne bbq *blah* on
 behalf of anyone suffering under winter in the northern hemisphere; when
 people start talking about frisbees I get jealous.

 Jon Tan
 www.gr0w.com
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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[WSG] Working Drafts: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 2.0

2005-11-23 Thread russ - maxdesign
From the W3C

The Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (WCAG) Working Group has released
Working Drafts of the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 2.0 [1] and HTML
Techniques for WCAG 2.0 [2] and a First Public Working Draft of
Understanding WCAG 2.0 [3]. Following WCAG makes Web content more accessible
to the vast majority of users, including people with disabilities and older
users, using many different devices including a wide variety of assistive
technology. Read about the Web Accessibility Initiative [4].

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-WCAG20-20051123/
[2] http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20-20051123/
[3] http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20-20051123/
[4] http://www.w3.org/WAI/

Thanks
Russ

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Re: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1

2005-11-23 Thread Richard Czeiger
There's also the idea that legal documents are often split into sections 
which continue numbering but are infact separate documents (addendums, 
etc...) .


At the moment, legal docs can't be semantically marked-up (at least in OZ) 
because:


1. any electonic version of a legal document MUST replicate the numbering 
and ordering EXACTLY.
2. current HTML/XHTML list mark-up/styling is not flexible enough to 
accomplish this.


The 'start' attribute and the 'value' attribute in lis would be amazingly 
helpful for this.
Of course, the obvious solution is to teach bl**dy lawyers how to 
meaningfully put together a document but they can't even write in plain 
English let alone manage something as complex as nested lists!


;oP

On a more serious note, if someone can put together a MicroFormat that 
solves this problem, they'll go down in the Web Geek Hall of Fame or 
something. (if you do manage it though, please let me know!)


R 



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Re: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1

2005-11-23 Thread matt andrews
On 23/11/05, Geoff Pack [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I agree with Bert - use the start attribute and a transitional dtd. It's 
 cleaner, more concise, and captures exactly the semantics of what you are 
 doing. You don't need the div around the text info though.

 Of course you could always write out the first 39 empty list-items and hide 
 them :)

Agree with Bert and Geoff here.  The dropping of 'start' attribute
from strict DTD was, and is, a controversial W3C decision - one with
which I disagree, personally.  There are plenty of plausible and
sensible scenarios for having an ordered list start with something
other than 1... this NLA case being an excellent example.  This is one
case where I would regard (this particular aspect of) validation as
being a hindrance rather than a help.
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Re: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1

2005-11-23 Thread heretic
 the first, for example:
 ol start=40
 li
 divtext info in here/div
 /li

 What do people suggest?

I'd vote for:

ol start=40
  litext info in here/li
/ol

I think the specs should not have deprecated the attribute - breaking
up huge lists into separate pages is entirely legit, which means the
numbering is an important part of the *content*.

The idea that all numbers should be added with CSS goes against the
idea of separating style and content, IMHO.

I'd recommend using li value=n, but I'm not clear about the future
interpretation of the attribute. I notice it's included in XHTML 2.0
(http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-xhtml2-20040722/mod-list.html#adef_list_value),
but the spec doesn't say whether following items should continue the
numbering from the previous value. That would be *logical*, but
...well, specs aren't always logical :)

cheers,

h

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RE: [WSG] :after, IE, and link text wrapping

2005-11-23 Thread Paul Noone
Sunny, what Jon and I meant was to put the span at the end of the link like
this:

a class=externalThe linkspan class=extimage/span/a

This will force the image to appear at the nend of the link.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of SunUp
Sent: Thursday, 24 November 2005 12:53 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] :after, IE, and link text wrapping

Thanks Jon ...

It was suggested that I try span, which I did, but IE still displays the
image at the end of the line, where the long link text wraps, instead of at
the of whole link.

I think I'll just hide it afterall, and IE users can (in the inimitable
words of Dad in The Castle) suffer in their jocks.

thanks,
sunny

On 11/24/05, Jon Tan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 SunUp [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Is there a way to make it display the image at the END of the LINK, 
 instead of at the end of the LINE?
 I've messed around w/ placement and padding etc. No joy.

 Hi Sunny

 Turning them off for IE has always been my answer. If you realy want 
 the bg img in there to indicate an external link one workaround is to 
 add a span before the closing /a and apply a bg to that but it's a
little verbose.

 btw... [off topic] for all of you who may go to the Melbourne bbq 
 *blah* on behalf of anyone suffering under winter in the northern 
 hemisphere; when people start talking about frisbees I get jealous.

 Jon Tan
 www.gr0w.com
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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 **


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Re: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1

2005-11-23 Thread Jon Tan

Somaya Langley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


[...]* the way that's been selected is to show a thumbnail icon and the 
title

or some descriptive metadata
(similar to search results pages on the site:
http://www.musicaustralia.org)


If the ol is just to place the record in a block of search results like 
the example site then it might be worth considering dl with dt as the 
hyperlinked title - that would also apply more meningful html to the title 
of the item returned. The results description shown contextualy [Resources 
(1-20 of 529)] etc. numbers the block anyway. Interesting site btw.


Jon Tan

www.gr0w.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jon Tan
Sent: Thursday, 24 November 2005 12:29 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1


Chris Kennon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Can someone explain why this incredibly useful attribute:

ol
  li value=40/li

 is deprecated, or is it?


It is depreciated ( http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html)
although
it is not obselete therefore will still be supported for backward
compatibility.

One possible reason could be that it completely destroys the semantics
of an
ordered list by allowing it to be broken up.

I'm curious about the function of the list - does the numbering describe
the
images to make them meaningful in some way? An ordered list spread over
multiple URIs strikes me as wrong as the list portion referenced by an
individual URI may have less meaning when dislocated from other portions
of
the list. Something like spreading a library index over different
rooms[files] in the building[domain]. Is there a reason apart from file
size
/ download time that this list should be spread over multiple pages? I
assume the archive is huge but if its just a contents list page then
wouldn't it be hypertext with anchors for blocks and meaningful URIs for

each image? I assume the library has some kind of tagging system or
category
system to classify images so access to groups of images themselves is
achieved through that?

Jon Tan
www.gr0w.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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RE: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1

2005-11-23 Thread Paul Noone
Amazing site. Nice use of pictograms.

Categorising all that data must have been one hell of a job. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Jon Tan
Sent: Thursday, 24 November 2005 1:18 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1

Somaya Langley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


[...]* the way that's been selected is to show a thumbnail icon and the 
title or some descriptive metadata (similar to search results pages on 
the site:
http://www.musicaustralia.org)

If the ol is just to place the record in a block of search results like
the example site then it might be worth considering dl with dt as the
hyperlinked title - that would also apply more meningful html to the title
of the item returned. The results description shown contextualy [Resources
(1-20 of 529)] etc. numbers the block anyway. Interesting site btw.

Jon Tan

www.gr0w.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jon Tan
Sent: Thursday, 24 November 2005 12:29 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1


Chris Kennon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Can someone explain why this incredibly useful attribute:
 ol
   li value=40/li
  is deprecated, or is it?

It is depreciated ( http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html)
although
it is not obselete therefore will still be supported for backward
compatibility.

One possible reason could be that it completely destroys the semantics of an
ordered list by allowing it to be broken up.

I'm curious about the function of the list - does the numbering describe the
images to make them meaningful in some way? An ordered list spread over
multiple URIs strikes me as wrong as the list portion referenced by an
individual URI may have less meaning when dislocated from other portions of
the list. Something like spreading a library index over different
rooms[files] in the building[domain]. Is there a reason apart from file size
/ download time that this list should be spread over multiple pages? I
assume the archive is huge but if its just a contents list page then
wouldn't it be hypertext with anchors for blocks and meaningful URIs for

each image? I assume the library has some kind of tagging system or category
system to classify images so access to groups of images themselves is
achieved through that?

Jon Tan
www.gr0w.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1

2005-11-23 Thread Peter J. Farrell

matt andrews wrote:


Agree with Bert and Geoff here.  The dropping of 'start' attribute
from strict DTD was, and is, a controversial W3C decision - one with
which I disagree, personally.  There are plenty of plausible and
sensible scenarios for having an ordered list start with something
other than 1... this NLA case being an excellent example.  This is one
case where I would regard (this particular aspect of) validation as
being a hindrance rather than a help.
 

I like where the W3C Validator says that a page with the start attribute 
is invalid whereas Tidy says it's ok...


I'm in total agreement that start shouldn't have been dropped.  There 
are several legal type documents that require things to be numbered.  
However, for the reason of simplicity for the user it was decided by the 
web team that the sections be different pages and the number needs to 
remain consistent.


Even though it's depreciated and many pages at many websites aren't 
valid in the first place -- couldn't you still use the start attribute 
on a Strict page anyways?  Ducks and runs...*poof*


.Peter

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[WSG] BOM and charset declaration in CSS

2005-11-23 Thread Paul Noone
Who uses an encoding declaration at the head of their external CSS style
sheets?

And how do you get around the UTF-8 signature or byte order mark (BOM) that
some editors add to the document? 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of russ - maxdesign
Sent: Thursday, 24 November 2005 1:03 PM
To: Web Standards Group
Subject: [WSG] Working Drafts: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 2.0

From the W3C

The Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (WCAG) Working Group has released
Working Drafts of the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 2.0 [1] and HTML
Techniques for WCAG 2.0 [2] and a First Public Working Draft of
Understanding WCAG 2.0 [3]. Following WCAG makes Web content more accessible
to the vast majority of users, including people with disabilities and older
users, using many different devices including a wide variety of assistive
technology. Read about the Web Accessibility Initiative [4].

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-WCAG20-20051123/
[2] http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20-20051123/
[3] http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20-20051123/
[4] http://www.w3.org/WAI/

Thanks
Russ

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Re: [WSG] :after, IE, and link text wrapping

2005-11-23 Thread SunUp
 ... what Jon and I meant was to put the span at the end of the link like
 this:

 a class=externalThe linkspan class=extimage/span/a


*nod*

I did try that.

And then the CSS would be:

span.exit {
  background: url(media/external.gif) no-repeat;
}

yea?

It doesn't show at all :(

Clearly I need a sign on my back that says I'm too thick to do this stuff.

Thanks guys,

sunny.
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RE: [WSG] :after, IE, and link text wrapping

2005-11-23 Thread Paul Noone
Set a width or padding on your exit class that is sufficient to display the
image. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of SunUp
Sent: Thursday, 24 November 2005 1:59 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] :after, IE, and link text wrapping

 ... what Jon and I meant was to put the span at the end of the link 
 like
 this:

 a class=externalThe linkspan class=extimage/span/a


*nod*

I did try that.

And then the CSS would be:

span.exit {
  background: url(media/external.gif) no-repeat; }

yea?

It doesn't show at all :(

Clearly I need a sign on my back that says I'm too thick to do this stuff.

Thanks guys,

sunny.
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Re: [WSG] :after, IE, and link text wrapping

2005-11-23 Thread Bert Doorn

G'day

Paul Noone wrote:

Set a width or padding on your exit class that is sufficient to display the
image. 


And get the class name in the html matching the css.  In fact, 
the span doesn't need a class at all if you do this:


a.external span { /* whatever styles needed  */ }

a class=externalBlahspan /span/a

FWIW, I don't like the idea of adding extra, non semantic markup 
for presentational purposes.


Regards
--
Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites

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Re: [WSG] BOM and charset declaration in CSS

2005-11-23 Thread Andrew Cunningham

Hi Paul,

Paul Noone wrote:

Who uses an encoding declaration at the head of their external CSS style
sheets?


if my stylesheet just uses the basic Latin range, I usually don't bother 
with an encoding declaration.


If the values of my id and class attributes fall outside that range 
or if I have unescaped text being inserted into the document via CSS 
then I'd add an encoding declaration.



And how do you get around the UTF-8 signature or byte order mark (BOM) that
some editors add to the document? 


Some info on BOM  at 
http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-utf8-bom for those interested.


Some editors will give you the option of saving with or without BOM. For 
this type of stuff I use emeditor.


There are various tools out there for striping the BOM, eg 
http://www.xs4all.nl/~mechiel/projects/bomstrip/


Andrew


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of russ - maxdesign
Sent: Thursday, 24 November 2005 1:03 PM
To: Web Standards Group
Subject: [WSG] Working Drafts: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 2.0


From the W3C


The Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (WCAG) Working Group has released
Working Drafts of the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 2.0 [1] and HTML
Techniques for WCAG 2.0 [2] and a First Public Working Draft of
Understanding WCAG 2.0 [3]. Following WCAG makes Web content more accessible
to the vast majority of users, including people with disabilities and older
users, using many different devices including a wide variety of assistive
technology. Read about the Web Accessibility Initiative [4].

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-WCAG20-20051123/
[2] http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20-20051123/
[3] http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20-20051123/
[4] http://www.w3.org/WAI/

Thanks
Russ

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e-Diversity and Content Infrastructure Solutions
Public Libraries Unit, Vicnet
State Library of Victoria
328 Swanston Street
Melbourne  VIC  3000
Australia

andrewc+AEA-vicnet.net.au

Ph. 3-8664-7430
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Re: [WSG] :after, IE, and link text wrapping

2005-11-23 Thread SunUp
  Set a width or padding on your exit class that is sufficient to display the
  image.


Yes, did that. I still can't see the wretched thing.

 And get the class name in the html matching the css.  In fact,
 the span doesn't need a class at all if you do this:

 a.external span { /* whatever styles needed  */ }

 a class=externalBlahspan /span/a

 FWIW, I don't like the idea of adding extra, non semantic markup
 for presentational purposes.


Thanks for that too Bert. That's just about what I ended up with, and
it just won't show itself. Agreed, the extra markup is undesirable,
but I was getting annoyed that it wasn't working and was willing to
try anything just to get the thing to show, and THEN decided whether I
wanted to live with it like that.

However, I give up on it. Weird though, I can see it working in IE
here: http://webdesign.maratz.com/lab/visited_links_styling/. I
seriously don't know why it's not working for me .. maybe something
else in the styles is preventing it? shrug

Thanks to you all for your input.
I'm 10 pages down, and about 100 to go, on a major redesign from
table-based to .. well, not table-based. I'm sure I have other things
I should be paying more attention to.

sunny.
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Re: [WSG] :after, IE, and link text wrapping

2005-11-23 Thread Bob McAllister
Paul Noone wrote:
 Set a width or padding on your exit class that is sufficient to display the
 image.

On 11/24/05, Bert Doorn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 In fact, the span doesn't need a class at all if you do this:
 a.external span { /* whatever styles needed  */ }
a class=externalBlahspan /span/a

 FWIW, I don't like the idea of adding extra, non semantic markup
 for presentational purposes.

One way to avoid dealing with whether or not an empty span displays
its background (and perhaps to salve the conscience over non-semantic
markup) is to place the last word of the link within the span.

So   a class=externalThe last spanword/span/a for longer links
that might split over lines; which collapses to
a class=externalspanBlah/span/a when there is only a single word.

Bob
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Re: [WSG] University textbook or other resources?

2005-11-23 Thread Katrina




Sorry for the sarcasm but I dream of a lecturer covering things like
accessibility, especially with decent books and knowledgeable and
interested tutors :-P


Well, one of my minors at Uni SA has a subject/course of Accesible 
Interactive Multimedia, so your dream is my reality :)


Thanks for that! ;p

Kat
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RE: [WSG] Working Drafts: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 2. 0

2005-11-23 Thread Herrod, Lisa
Is anyone aware of the proposed date WCAG 2.0 will replace 1.0?

-Original Message-
From: russ - maxdesign [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, 24 November 2005 1:03 PM
To: Web Standards Group
Subject: [WSG] Working Drafts: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 2.0


From the W3C

The Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (WCAG) Working Group has released
Working Drafts of the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 2.0 [1] and HTML
Techniques for WCAG 2.0 [2] and a First Public Working Draft of
Understanding WCAG 2.0 [3]. Following WCAG makes Web content more accessible
to the vast majority of users, including people with disabilities and older
users, using many different devices including a wide variety of assistive
technology. Read about the Web Accessibility Initiative [4].

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-WCAG20-20051123/
[2] http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20-20051123/
[3] http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20-20051123/
[4] http://www.w3.org/WAI/

Thanks
Russ

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Re: [WSG] :after, IE, and link text wrapping

2005-11-23 Thread SunUp
... place the last word of the link within the span.

 So   a class=externalThe last spanword/span/a for longer links

Ok ok, I know I said I'd given up, but I tried this, and it finally worked.

Still ... it's weird that it didn't show up before. And in fact, when
I move the span back to get this ...

a class=externalLink herespan/span/a

... it disappears again. When I wrap it around the last word again, it appears.

Crazy stuff.

Thanks again, gentlemen.

sunny
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[WSG] final word on numbering lists...

2005-11-23 Thread Somaya Langley
of course, you could just use the start attribute *and* the Strict DTD.

I consider this the case where using start is the best *and simplest*
solution, and frankly, that's what we're all trying to do isn't it. If
we keep it simple - it's not just keeping content and layout separate,
especially when XHML is *only* the front component to largescale dynamic
database driven sites.

Thanks all for your input, if anyone who is working for/with w3c is on
this list, perhaps this could be fed back...?

Hope you all had a good meeting at the NLA a few weeks back, sorry
couldn't make it.

Thanks again
Somaya
_
Somaya Langley
Digital Preservations Officer /  Web Audio Analyst

National Library of Australia
Parkes Place
Canberra ACT 2600

ph +61 2 6262 1366
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.musicaustralia.org
http://www.nla.gov.au









-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Peter J. Farrell
Sent: Thursday, 24 November 2005 1:31 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1


matt andrews wrote:

Agree with Bert and Geoff here.  The dropping of 'start' attribute
from strict DTD was, and is, a controversial W3C decision - one with
which I disagree, personally.  There are plenty of plausible and
sensible scenarios for having an ordered list start with something
other than 1... this NLA case being an excellent example.  This is one
case where I would regard (this particular aspect of) validation as
being a hindrance rather than a help.
  

I like where the W3C Validator says that a page with the start attribute

is invalid whereas Tidy says it's ok...

I'm in total agreement that start shouldn't have been dropped.  There 
are several legal type documents that require things to be numbered.  
However, for the reason of simplicity for the user it was decided by the

web team that the sections be different pages and the number needs to 
remain consistent.

Even though it's depreciated and many pages at many websites aren't 
valid in the first place -- couldn't you still use the start attribute 
on a Strict page anyways?  Ducks and runs...*poof*

.Peter

-- 
Peter J. Farrell :: Maestro Publishing
http://blog.maestropublishing.com

Rooibos Generator - Version 2.1
Create boilerplate beans and transfer objects for ColdFusion for free!
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Re: [WSG] :after, IE, and link text wrapping

2005-11-23 Thread Bert Doorn

G'day


Ok ok, I know I said I'd given up, but I tried this, and it finally worked.
Still ... it's weird that it didn't show up before. And in fact, when
I move the span back to get this ...
a class=externalLink herespan/span/a
... it disappears again. When I wrap it around the last word again, it appears.


Probably because you have an empty inline element (nothing inside 
the span).  Browser says: there's nothing there so I'll display 
nothing :-)  Maybe if you put a space in it (hoping MSIE doesn't 
decide it's unneeded whitespace)?  Or give it 
display:inline-block, with a width.


Regards
--
Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites

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Re: [WSG] CSS Validators

2005-11-23 Thread Jhondie Abenaza
You can try using HTML-kit  try to install the plugin for w3c css validatorhere is the link http://www.chami.com, hope this will help you.regardsJhondie AbenazaGeoff Pack [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone know of a downloadable CSS validator (other than the W3C one) that I can install on an local server to batch check files on my local network? We currently use the WDG html validator, but their CSS validator is not available for download.CheersGeoff Pack**The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list  getting help**








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Re: [WSG] BOM and charset declaration in CSS

2005-11-23 Thread Gene Falck

Hi Paul and Russ,

Paul wrote:


And how do you get around the UTF-8 signature or byte order mark (BOM) that
some editors add to the document?


I see you already have some replies on this BOM bit.

For looking over your file format (and also simply
deleting the BOM) you might also try a utility like
XVI32.exe which displays your file character by
character along side the hex values. Anything that
your editor puts before the DOCTYPE will put you
into quirks mode so the BOM (and anything else the
editor inserted at the beginning of the file) can
and probably should be deleted.

I like XVI32 a lot because I don't have a lot of
files to run in batch and I was curious what was
happening.

Regards,

Gene Falck
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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[WSG] Maccaws.org contact

2005-11-23 Thread Vito Tardia

Hi to all,

do you know an alternative way to contact the people at Maccaws.org?

The direct email seems not existing and I'm not sure about the form...

Thank you very much

Vito

--
Vito Tardia - Freelance
=
Sviluppatore Creativo e Artista Digitale
Creative Developer and Digital Artist

V.lo S. Crispino, 1
22070 Cirimido (Co) - Italy
Tel.: +39-347-4355516
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: http://www.vtardia.com
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