Re: [WSG] standards or confusion?

2005-12-05 Thread Bob Schwartz
Exactly where in my posts did I say I create web sites in the style  
of my friend?




On 12/4/05, Bob Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

None of those. I just mentioned that I was unable to convice my
friend to change his ways and his strongest reason not to was his
(fairly complicated) site that worked just fine in a lot of browsers
which he built without jumping through any of the hoops I go through
trying to get a complicated layout to work in as many browsers.

I'm all for standards and everything else this list is about, but I
do feel we might be spending a lot of time preparing for a State
Dinner when what we are really going to attend is a come-as-you-
are BBQ in the backyard.


If it's HTML 2.0 I assume it's got numerous font tags mixed in with
the multiple nested tables. I guess you and you're friend only create
web sites as a once of service and don't maintain them for your
clients because maintaining tag soup is not fun and that is the
biggest advantage of CSS and tableless layouts. Sure when you first
start out creating tableless layouts they take a while, but it gets
easier and faster the more you do it - probably like when you first
learn how to design layouts using tables.

--
Ben Wong
e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
w: http://blog.onehero.net
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Re: [WSG] standards or confusion?

2005-12-05 Thread Ben Wong
Sorry, if it seemed like I implied that, but even if you don't, just
the experience of the pain of having to maintain that sort of code
would eliminate any thought of reverting to the old school way of
making web sites.

On 12/5/05, Bob Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Exactly where in my posts did I say I create web sites in the style
 of my friend?


  On 12/4/05, Bob Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  None of those. I just mentioned that I was unable to convice my
  friend to change his ways and his strongest reason not to was his
  (fairly complicated) site that worked just fine in a lot of browsers
  which he built without jumping through any of the hoops I go through
  trying to get a complicated layout to work in as many browsers.
 
  I'm all for standards and everything else this list is about, but I
  do feel we might be spending a lot of time preparing for a State
  Dinner when what we are really going to attend is a come-as-you-
  are BBQ in the backyard.
 
  If it's HTML 2.0 I assume it's got numerous font tags mixed in with
  the multiple nested tables. I guess you and you're friend only create
  web sites as a once of service and don't maintain them for your
  clients because maintaining tag soup is not fun and that is the
  biggest advantage of CSS and tableless layouts. Sure when you first
  start out creating tableless layouts they take a while, but it gets
  easier and faster the more you do it - probably like when you first
  learn how to design layouts using tables.
 
  --
  Ben Wong
  e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  w: http://blog.onehero.net
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--
Ben Wong
e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [WSG] standards or confusion?

2005-12-05 Thread Bob Schwartz

No problem, Ben. Believe me I would never revert to the old way.
I guess I was just surprised to see how well my friend's site worked  
in 7 or 8 different MAC  win browsers with such outdated code.



Sorry, if it seemed like I implied that, but even if you don't, just
the experience of the pain of having to maintain that sort of code
would eliminate any thought of reverting to the old school way of
making web sites.

On 12/5/05, Bob Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Exactly where in my posts did I say I create web sites in the style
of my friend?



On 12/4/05, Bob Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

None of those. I just mentioned that I was unable to convice my
friend to change his ways and his strongest reason not to was his
(fairly complicated) site that worked just fine in a lot of  
browsers
which he built without jumping through any of the hoops I go  
through

trying to get a complicated layout to work in as many browsers.

I'm all for standards and everything else this list is about, but I
do feel we might be spending a lot of time preparing for a State
Dinner when what we are really going to attend is a come-as-you-
are BBQ in the backyard.


If it's HTML 2.0 I assume it's got numerous font tags mixed in with
the multiple nested tables. I guess you and you're friend only  
create

web sites as a once of service and don't maintain them for your
clients because maintaining tag soup is not fun and that is the
biggest advantage of CSS and tableless layouts. Sure when you first
start out creating tableless layouts they take a while, but it gets
easier and faster the more you do it - probably like when you first
learn how to design layouts using tables.

--
Ben Wong
e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
w: http://blog.onehero.net
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--
Ben Wong
e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [WSG] standards or confusion?

2005-12-05 Thread Absalom Media
Christian Montoya wrote:
 Tables + tag soup = hacking. Your friend really needs to get with it.
 Validation is not the main issue, it's accessibility. Speed is
 important too. If you can convince him to use CSS (if you can't, you
 have a lot to learn too, or he is dumb) then he will want to get
 browsers out of quirks mode, since that is where the real differences
 show. Then he will have to have a doctype, to make sure that browsers
 (mostly) follow the rules.

I've had the unfortunately task of educating vendors (usually some form
of CMS/DMS) in this area, and some are definitely more resistant to this
than others.

Mentioning the speed gains and legal backing now behind accessibility
law only seems to get some vendors ingrained into a defence of their own
workflow models, though.

Apart from that, I second everything Christian said ;)

Lawrence

-- 
Lawrence Meckan

Absalom Media
Mob: (04) 1047 9633
ABN: 49 286 495 792
http://www.absalom.biz
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Re: [WSG] standards or confusion?

2005-12-05 Thread Bob Schwartz

Lachlan,

By far, the most important issue facing beginners with regards to  
standards is the separation of semantics, presentation and  
behavioural layers into well structured, valid, non-presentational  
markup; CSS and javascript, respectively, and it sounds like you've  
already made significant steps toward these goals already.


Just to be clear I've understood a concept you mention above, could  
you show an example of javascript used as layered, non-presentational  
markup and one that is not?


thanks,

bob
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Re: [WSG] standards or confusion?

2005-12-05 Thread Manuel González Noriega
On 05/12/05, Bob Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Just to be clear I've understood a concept you mention above, could
 you show an example of javascript used as layered, non-presentational
 markup and one that is not?

a) a href=javascript:myfunction();Link/a
b) a href=page.html onclick=myfunction(); return false;Link/a
c) a href=page.html class=javascript_hookLink/a


a) is hideous
b) is better but still mixes structure and behaviour
c) where you will use, for example, the class attribute to add events
on runtime, is optimal and non-intrusive

See
http://www.onlinetools.org/articles/unobtrusivejavascript/




--
Manuel
a veces :) a veces :(
pero siempre trabajando duro para Simplelógica: apariencia,
experiencia y comunicación en la web.
http://simplelogica.net # (+34) 985 22 12 65

¡Ah! y escribiendo en Logicola: http://logicola.simplelogica.net
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Re: [WSG] standards or confusion?

2005-12-05 Thread Lachlan Hunt

Bob Schwartz wrote:

Lachlan,
By far, the most important issue facing beginners with regards to 
standards is the separation of semantics, presentation and behavioural 
layers into well structured, valid, non-presentational markup; CSS and 
javascript, respectively, and it sounds like you've already made 
significant steps toward these goals already.


Just to be clear I've understood a concept you mention above, could you 
show an example of javascript used as layered, non-presentational markup 
and one that is not?


When you mix behavioural attributes within the markup, like onclick, 
onmouseover, etc. or javascript: pseudo-URI schemes, that's the 
behavioural equivalent of including presentational attributes within 
your markup.  Instead of using those attributes, the best practice is to 
attach event listeners dynamically instead.


For example:

Bad:
a href=javascript:myPopup('foo.html');evil popup/a

Better:
a href=foo.html onclick=myPopup(this.href);return 
false;not-so-evil popup/a


Good:
a href=foo.html id=fooNot an evil popup/a

script src=popup.js type=text/javasript

document.getElementById(foo).addEventListener(click, myPopup, false);

or

document.getElementById(foo).onclick = myPopup;


Note: IMHO, all popups are evil and intrusive and must not be used under 
any circumstances, but this is an illustration of how to make them a 
little more accessible by separating the behaviour layer from the markup 
layer.


For a better explanation and other techniques, see:
http://www.onlinetools.org/articles/unobtrusivejavascript/

--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/
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Re: [WSG] editor

2005-12-05 Thread Tom Livingston
On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 22:53:30 -0500, Jay Gilmore [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
wrote:



When I first started really getting into web design I began with DW


To be clear, and get back to editors, I posted in favor of DW8. That's  
with an _8_. And mentioned I use it in code-view only. But, I also  
mentioned it's layout-view has developed into a much better tool. If you  
haven't used it since v.1 or 2. Download the trial and have at it. Again,  
layout-view isn't perfect. But's it's grown up nicely.


--
Tom Livingston
Senior Multimedia Artist
Media Logic
www.mlinc.com

Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
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Re: [WSG] Mambo Accessibility

2005-12-05 Thread L. Robinson

Michael Donnermeyer wrote:
TextPattern works well, particularly now that they've released a  final 
version.  I used WordPress up until v.1.5 due to TXP being in  beta and 
RC versions, but have since slowly switched to TXP for all  my sites.  
The only site I can think of at the moment that is running  TXP (and 
doing a good job of it) is Hicks Design (http:// 
www.hicksdesign.co.uk/).  I'm sure there's more out there, just can't  
think of them right now.




A few other sites using Textpattern: http://txpmagazine.kbbu.de/all_sites/

lr
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[WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-05 Thread Donna Jones

Dear CSS Listers:

in another thread, someone essentially asked why code like this, in 
trying to convince a friend.  I don't think he's getting very good 
answers but at any rate, it made me think of a problem I'm having and 
I've decided to make a new thread.


A non-profit that i've maintained the website for for 8 years or so has 
recently had some special grant money and as part of a package hired a 
PR firm to work with that segment from the grant (including the 
website).  They would rather I continue to maintain it but the PR firm 
feels otherwise.  The situation now, the PR firm has put up a number of 
pages, its tag soup, tables, js menu (with graphics) - you know.  I've 
done the same, based on the PR's firm design - css-p etc.  The 
non-profit doesn't know what code is, doesn't know there are browsers 
other than IE and don't feel they have the time to learn.


I need to be able to explain, by looking at the surface, the difference 
between standards coding versus you-know-what.  Just about the only 
thing I can come up with is the ability to increase font size in IE.  I 
also thought of making a PDA example using Opera's PDA emulator and 
comparing the two codings, with screen shots, next to each other and did 
that but i don't think they get what they're looking at.  Or else make 
very short sentences i.e. what the PR firm is doing is the way someone 
would have commonly done it five years ago ... 


Any other ideas.  Also, I'm afraid, the PR firm has convinced them that 
I am just the in-house volunteer and that *I'm* liable to mess up the 
site ... quoting an experience they had when they turned over a site to 
another customer.


I hope this is enough on-topic for some discussion.

best regards,
Donna

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RE: [WSG] editor

2005-12-05 Thread Conyers, Dwayne, Mr [C]
Artemis ink wired:

 Could you pretty please elaborate on rubbish? 
 I mean, I know what you're saying, but I am 
 curious as to what code Frontpage and Dreamweaver 
 puts out that is rubbish. 


Like many M$ tools, FrontPage assumes that it is smarter than you are and
puts non-standard items into your code.  However, it is possible to disable
that behavior and hand-edit your code as desired.  Still, it rates a C-minus
at best... a slight improvement over notepad.

I admit being lazy and using FP (after disabling the rubbish features) for
my personal web coding only because it came free with M$Office and the
intellisense feature comes in handy. However, I have been considering
upgrading my old copy of UltraDev to the latest DreamWeaver.

Rumor has it M$ will be creating a new FrontPage that incorporates
functionality from the old InterDev tool and perhaps some of the .NET
Enterprise IDE functionality.  I get M$ products free with my company-paid
MSDN so I might take a peek at it, but only for home use -- never for my
clients.


--
Dwacon
www.dwacon.com
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Re: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-05 Thread Kim Kruse
I tell my clients that the only way you can measure if your website 
(code wise) is any good is by using the industrial standards set by the 
W3 and the validators. This also means that if you can't maintain the 
site anymore any semi skilled coder should be able to take over. Not 
very likely with tag soup, huge scriptbased menus etc.


I'm aware that valid code is not the same as good (wellformed) code... 
and just because you use standards doesn't mean the 
usability/accessibility is any good.


Kim

Donna Jones wrote:


Dear CSS Listers:

in another thread, someone essentially asked why code like this, in 
trying to convince a friend.  I don't think he's getting very good 
answers but at any rate, it made me think of a problem I'm having 
and I've decided to make a new thread.


A non-profit that i've maintained the website for for 8 years or so 
has recently had some special grant money and as part of a package 
hired a PR firm to work with that segment from the grant (including 
the website).  They would rather I continue to maintain it but the PR 
firm feels otherwise.  The situation now, the PR firm has put up a 
number of pages, its tag soup, tables, js menu (with graphics) - you 
know.  I've done the same, based on the PR's firm design - css-p etc.  
The non-profit doesn't know what code is, doesn't know there are 
browsers other than IE and don't feel they have the time to learn.


I need to be able to explain, by looking at the surface, the 
difference between standards coding versus you-know-what.  Just 
about the only thing I can come up with is the ability to increase 
font size in IE.  I also thought of making a PDA example using Opera's 
PDA emulator and comparing the two codings, with screen shots, next to 
each other and did that but i don't think they get what they're 
looking at.  Or else make very short sentences i.e. what the PR firm 
is doing is the way someone would have commonly done it five years ago 
... 


Any other ideas.  Also, I'm afraid, the PR firm has convinced them 
that I am just the in-house volunteer and that *I'm* liable to mess 
up the site ... quoting an experience they had when they turned over a 
site to another customer.


I hope this is enough on-topic for some discussion.

best regards,
Donna

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Re: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-05 Thread Donna Jones

Kim Kruse wrote:

I tell my clients that the only way you can measure if your website 
(code wise) is any good is by using the industrial standards set by the 
W3 and the validators. This also means that if you can't maintain the 
site anymore any semi skilled coder should be able to take over. Not 
very likely with tag soup, huge scriptbased menus etc.


I'm aware that valid code is not the same as good (wellformed) code... 
and just because you use standards doesn't mean the 
usability/accessibility is any good.


Kim


Kim, I've tried that (they have no idea what the W3C is or validators or 
why it matters and don't want to learn) and it doesn't get me anywhere. 
 I've talked about accessibility and that gets me further (with the 
increase font-size bit).


The part about someone else being able to take it over more easily - i 
haven't talked about that much.  and maybe i could have more of a go 
with that.


thanks for your thoughts.

Donna

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Re: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-05 Thread Kim Kruse

Hi Donna,

That's why I mention the measure thingy and industrial standards. I 
get the feeling that's something companies appreciate from a business 
point of view.


Kim, I've tried that (they have no idea what the W3C is or validators 
or why it matters and don't want to learn) and it doesn't get me 
anywhere.  I've talked about accessibility and that gets me further 
(with the increase font-size bit).


The part about someone else being able to take it over more easily - i 
haven't talked about that much.  and maybe i could have more of a go 
with that.


thanks for your thoughts.

Donna

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Re: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-05 Thread docbox

Donna,

 That's why I mention the measure thingy and industrial standards. I
 get the feeling that's something companies appreciate from a business
 point of view.

Several of my coworkers and I recently gave a talk on when we chose to use
Web standards (and when we didn't). We created a handout with some links
to articles on using Web standards. Maybe one of the articles would be
useful to you?

Some of the reasons we chose to move to XHTML/CSS instead of table-based
design:
* Faster load-times.
* Smaller page sizes. (One site I did went from CSS-P to a table-based
template upon the customer's request, and the page sizes all tripled.)
* Better accessibility.
* Greater visibility in Web searches,
* Better compatibility with browsers.
* Future compatible with upcoming standards.

I'll be happy to provide additional information if you like.

Good luck with your situation.

Kim Nylander

--

These are some of the articles we used in the handout. Maybe they would
have something useful?

Why Use Web Standards?

Buy standards compliant Web sites (W3C QA article)
http://www.w3.org/QA/2002/07/WebAgency-Requirements

The Way Forward with Web Standards (MACCAWS)
http://www.maccaws.org/kit/way-forward/

What are Web Standards and Why Should I Use Them? (WaSP)
http://www.webstandards.org/learn/faq/

Web Standards Switch (W3C QA)
http://www.w3.org/QA/2003/03/web-kit

Using Standards

Learn the Standards (WaSP)
http://www.webstandards.org/learn/standards/

What Every Web Site Owner Should Know About Standards: A Web Standards
Primer (MACCAWS)
http://www.maccaws.org/kit/primer/

Making your website valid: a step by step guide. (W3C QA)
http://www.w3.org/QA/2002/09/Step-by-step

My Web Site is Standard. And yours? (W3C QA)
http://www.w3.org/QA/2002/04/Web-Quality

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[WSG] use for callender creates

2005-12-05 Thread KJ Callender
use for callender creates

-




 Donna,

 That's why I mention the measure thingy and industrial standards. I
 get the feeling that's something companies appreciate from a business
 point of view.

 Several of my coworkers and I recently gave a talk on when we chose to use
 Web standards (and when we didn't). We created a handout with some links
 to articles on using Web standards. Maybe one of the articles would be
 useful to you?

 Some of the reasons we chose to move to XHTML/CSS instead of table-based
 design:
 * Faster load-times.
 * Smaller page sizes. (One site I did went from CSS-P to a table-based
 template upon the customer's request, and the page sizes all tripled.)
 * Better accessibility.
 * Greater visibility in Web searches,
 * Better compatibility with browsers.
 * Future compatible with upcoming standards.

 I'll be happy to provide additional information if you like.

 Good luck with your situation.

 Kim Nylander

 --

 These are some of the articles we used in the handout. Maybe they would
 have something useful?

 Why Use Web Standards?

 Buy standards compliant Web sites (W3C QA article)
 http://www.w3.org/QA/2002/07/WebAgency-Requirements

 The Way Forward with Web Standards (MACCAWS)
 http://www.maccaws.org/kit/way-forward/

 What are Web Standards and Why Should I Use Them? (WaSP)
 http://www.webstandards.org/learn/faq/

 Web Standards Switch (W3C QA)
 http://www.w3.org/QA/2003/03/web-kit

 Using Standards

 Learn the Standards (WaSP)
 http://www.webstandards.org/learn/standards/

 What Every Web Site Owner Should Know About Standards: A Web Standards
 Primer (MACCAWS)
 http://www.maccaws.org/kit/primer/

 Making your website valid: a step by step guide. (W3C QA)
 http://www.w3.org/QA/2002/09/Step-by-step

 My Web Site is Standard. And yours? (W3C QA)
 http://www.w3.org/QA/2002/04/Web-Quality

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[WSG] CSS drop down box pushes down following content

2005-12-05 Thread Barrie North
Hi,

I seem to be having a problem with a CSS drop down list box, it isn't
properly floating over the content below it.

http://www.compassdesigns.net/4corners/photoessay2.html

If anyone could take a look and offer some help, that would be great!!

Barrie North
Compass Design
www.compassdesigns.net
~Professional, affordable web design~



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Re: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-05 Thread adam reitsma
Donna,This is where you really need to be thinking in terms of what the customer wants.So it's the hippest, coolest, latest code - so what? They really don't care - and shouldn't care.Come up with points that assist them - as Kim was saying, show where your 'methods' (and you don't really need much more discussion on what your methods are, unless they ask) come out ahead:
- Compare the end size of one of your pages vs one of theirs. Show how that affects your site's bandwidth usage, and how that could affect dialup users.- If there's a change to your site that you could forsee (for instance, color scheme change, slight layout change, etc), outline the time (=money) savings in changing your code, vs theirs.
- Add that your methods provide better search engine ratings (providing that you are also supplying the right content), and that your methods allow for greater accessibility. For some non-profit orgs this can be a real advantage.
Show them some numbers that prove that you know what you're talking about - loading times, page sizes, % of other browsers, etc.Good luck!--adam--On 12/6/05, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Donna, That's why I mention the measure thingy and industrial standards. I get the feeling that's something companies appreciate from a business point of view.Several of my coworkers and I recently gave a talk on when we chose to use
Web standards (and when we didn't). We created a handout with some linksto articles on using Web standards. Maybe one of the articles would beuseful to you?Some of the reasons we chose to move to XHTML/CSS instead of table-based
design:* Faster load-times.* Smaller page sizes. (One site I did went from CSS-P to a table-basedtemplate upon the customer's request, and the page sizes all tripled.)* Better accessibility.* Greater visibility in Web searches,
* Better compatibility with browsers.* Future compatible with upcoming standards.I'll be happy to provide additional information if you like.Good luck with your situation.Kim Nylander
--These are some of the articles we used in the handout. Maybe they wouldhave something useful?Why Use Web Standards?Buy standards compliant Web sites (W3C QA article)
http://www.w3.org/QA/2002/07/WebAgency-RequirementsThe Way Forward with Web Standards (MACCAWS)http://www.maccaws.org/kit/way-forward/What are Web Standards and Why Should I Use Them? (WaSP)
http://www.webstandards.org/learn/faq/Web Standards Switch (W3C QA)http://www.w3.org/QA/2003/03/web-kit
Using StandardsLearn the Standards (WaSP)http://www.webstandards.org/learn/standards/What Every Web Site Owner Should Know About Standards: A Web Standards
Primer (MACCAWS)http://www.maccaws.org/kit/primer/Making your website valid: a step by step guide. (W3C QA)
http://www.w3.org/QA/2002/09/Step-by-stepMy Web Site is Standard. And yours? (W3C QA)http://www.w3.org/QA/2002/04/Web-Quality**
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Re: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-05 Thread Samuel Richardson

I'm going to have to name drop my article again here :)

http://www.geminidevelopment.com.au/html/article_whycomplient.php

Samuel


adam reitsma wrote:

[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



Donna,

 That's why I mention the measure thingy and industrial
standards. I
 get the feeling that's something companies appreciate from a
business
 point of view.

Several of my coworkers and I recently gave a talk on when we
chose to use
Web standards (and when we didn't). We created a handout with some
links
to articles on using Web standards. Maybe one of the articles would be
useful to you?

Some of the reasons we chose to move to XHTML/CSS instead of
table-based
design:
* Faster load-times.
* Smaller page sizes. (One site I did went from CSS-P to a table-based
template upon the customer's request, and the page sizes all tripled.)
* Better accessibility.
* Greater visibility in Web searches,
* Better compatibility with browsers.
* Future compatible with upcoming standards.

I'll be happy to provide additional information if you like.

Good luck with your situation.

Kim Nylander

--

These are some of the articles we used in the handout. Maybe they
would
have something useful?

Why Use Web Standards?

Buy standards compliant Web sites (W3C QA article)
http://www.w3.org/QA/2002/07/WebAgency-Requirements

The Way Forward with Web Standards (MACCAWS)
http://www.maccaws.org/kit/way-forward/

What are Web Standards and Why Should I Use Them? (WaSP)
http://www.webstandards.org/learn/faq/

Web Standards Switch (W3C QA)
http://www.w3.org/QA/2003/03/web-kit

Using Standards

Learn the Standards (WaSP)
http://www.webstandards.org/learn/standards/

What Every Web Site Owner Should Know About Standards: A Web
Standards
Primer (MACCAWS)
http://www.maccaws.org/kit/primer/

Making your website valid: a step by step guide. (W3C QA)
http://www.w3.org/QA/2002/09/Step-by-step

My Web Site is Standard. And yours? (W3C QA)
http://www.w3.org/QA/2002/04/Web-Quality

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Re: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-05 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor
In my own experience, I find myself using the house analogy again and 
again when it comes to websites and getting points across to clients.  
There's a code for what is considered a good building.  You cannot gain 
a certificate of occupancy with passing code.


You CAN launch a site without passing code, but there are groups that 
are working together to enforce the integrity of the code.  That usually 
puts them in the correct state of mind.


Joe Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com

adam reitsma wrote:


Donna,
This is where you really need to be thinking in terms of what the 
customer wants.


So it's the hippest, coolest, latest code - so what? They really don't 
care - and shouldn't care.


Come up with points that assist them - as Kim was saying, show where 
your 'methods' (and you don't really need much more discussion on what 
your methods are, unless they ask) come out ahead:
- Compare the end size of one of your pages vs one of theirs. Show how 
that affects your site's bandwidth usage, and how that could affect 
dialup users.
- If there's a change to your site that you could forsee (for 
instance, color scheme change, slight layout change, etc), outline the 
time (=money) savings in changing your code, vs theirs.
- Add that your methods provide better search engine ratings 
(providing that you are also supplying the right content), and that 
your methods allow for greater accessibility. For some non-profit orgs 
this can be a real advantage.


Show them some numbers that prove that you know what you're talking 
about - loading times, page sizes, % of other browsers, etc.


Good luck!

--adam--

On 12/6/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



Donna,

 That's why I mention the measure thingy and industrial
standards. I
 get the feeling that's something companies appreciate from a
business
 point of view.

Several of my coworkers and I recently gave a talk on when we
chose to use
Web standards (and when we didn't). We created a handout with some
links
to articles on using Web standards. Maybe one of the articles would be
useful to you?

Some of the reasons we chose to move to XHTML/CSS instead of
table-based
design:
* Faster load-times.
* Smaller page sizes. (One site I did went from CSS-P to a table-based
template upon the customer's request, and the page sizes all tripled.)
* Better accessibility.
* Greater visibility in Web searches,
* Better compatibility with browsers.
* Future compatible with upcoming standards.

I'll be happy to provide additional information if you like.

Good luck with your situation.

Kim Nylander

--

These are some of the articles we used in the handout. Maybe they
would
have something useful?

Why Use Web Standards?

Buy standards compliant Web sites (W3C QA article)
http://www.w3.org/QA/2002/07/WebAgency-Requirements

The Way Forward with Web Standards (MACCAWS)
http://www.maccaws.org/kit/way-forward/

What are Web Standards and Why Should I Use Them? (WaSP)
http://www.webstandards.org/learn/faq/

Web Standards Switch (W3C QA)
http://www.w3.org/QA/2003/03/web-kit

Using Standards

Learn the Standards (WaSP)
http://www.webstandards.org/learn/standards/

What Every Web Site Owner Should Know About Standards: A Web
Standards
Primer (MACCAWS)
http://www.maccaws.org/kit/primer/

Making your website valid: a step by step guide. (W3C QA)
http://www.w3.org/QA/2002/09/Step-by-step

My Web Site is Standard. And yours? (W3C QA)
http://www.w3.org/QA/2002/04/Web-Quality

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Re: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-05 Thread Christian Montoya
 adam reitsma wrote:
  - If there's a change to your site that you could forsee (for
  instance, color scheme change, slight layout change, etc), outline the
  time (=money) savings in changing your code, vs theirs.

I think this is the top point. Sure, the tag soup option may look good
now, but what happens when you want to change something? In CSS it
takes 5 seconds. In a tag soup website, it's not so easy.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com
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Re: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-05 Thread Jan Brasna

Some articles:

http://www.alistapart.com/articles/csstalking/
http://www.graphicpush.com/index.php?id=49
http://www.adaptivepath.com/publications/essays/archives/000266.php
http://www.webstandards.org/learn/reference/web_standards_for_business.html
http://www.websitegoodies.com/article/38
http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/The_Business_Benefits_of_Web_Standards
http://www.w3.org/WAI/bcase/benefits.html

--
Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com
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[WSG] A floating menu that keeps folding where it shouldn't (repost)

2005-12-05 Thread Seona Bellamy
At least, I think it shouldn't. It doesn't in Firefox anyway, but IE is insisting on not sliding under my banner properly.



Have a look at http://www.renovate.com.au



The issue arises when you view it at 800x600 or so. In Firefox, it all
works nicely and the out-hanging tab in the bottom row slides in under
the logo. In IE, this tab falls to the next line. I'd be prepared to
live with this for now, since we have a major redsign planned for
January anyway, but the boss isn't happy. Therefore, I'm charged with
fixing it.



I've fiddled around, I've tried installed IE's Web Developer Toolbar
(which didn't help and eventually crashed IE, but that's another
story), and I cannot figure out what is going on here. Can someone
please have a look at this site and tell me if this is something I can
actually fix (I really hope it is) and how?



CSS is located at http://www.renovate.com.au/lib/screen.css - please
don't blame me for some of the things in there, since most of it was
inherited from the last developers and I'm going through it a bit at a
time trying to clean it up. Most of it will die in the redesign,
anyway. :)



Cheers,


Seona.


Re: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-05 Thread Ric Jude Raftis

G'day Donna,

The continuing fight against the incompetent and uncaring!  Would they 
allow their children to play with toys that didn't meet Australian 
Safety Standards (or whatever country you're in)?  Then why have a site 
that doesn't meet world standards for web design?


Regards,

Ric

Donna Jones wrote:



Any other ideas.  Also, I'm afraid, the PR firm has convinced them 
that I am just the in-house volunteer and that *I'm* liable to mess 
up the site ... quoting an experience they had when they turned over a 
site to another customer.




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RE: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-05 Thread kvnmcwebn
The processes of building a site with standards cool.
Best practices that cover every stage from 
planning to customer sign off that can be found on
this lists posts and moderators/members sites.
For me it makes job turnaround smoother and quicker.


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Re: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-05 Thread Lea de Groot

On 06/12/2005, at 1:01 AM, Donna Jones wrote:
I need to be able to explain, by looking at the surface, the  
difference between standards coding versus you-know-what.


Another point: standards based markup is lighter - their overall  
bandwidth will be lower, meaning they can buy the cheaper hosting  
package.
Granted, hosting doesn't cost much these days, but this is a non- 
profit and the bottom line is normally very important there.
I would compare the weight of the two sets of pages and predict when  
you will need to change up to the next (more expensive) hosting  
package for the two implementations.
Then I would mutter about how you're probably wrong because with the  
heavier pages the bots probably won't spider as well and they are  
liable never to achieve great rankings...

The contrast of savings money and not getting rankings is often enough.

The flip side is the accessability (which you've already mentioned) -  
as a non-profit do they have higher standards to meet? You appear to  
be in the UK - aren't the accessability rules for groups receiving  
govt money (I assume thats where the extra funds appeared from)  
fairly stringent over there?
'We have to meet accessability rules and *that* doesnt do it' is  
probably your biggest pushing point.


HIH
Lea
--
Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems
Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-05 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote:

You CAN launch a site without passing code, but there are groups that 
are working together to enforce the integrity of the code. 


And which groups would those be? And what authority do they have over 
the site? Here's where the analogy may well fall apart, rather than have 
the desired impact...


--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
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Re: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-05 Thread James Ellis
Hi

They are a PR firm, so they will respond to $$ arguments. I suggest you
build two compliant pages, of exactly the same html code and re-present
them differently using CSS (like floats, PDA style. Show this to them,
flick between the two explaining how both sites can use the same
backend and code base if needed, saving $$$.
Now, try and do the same thing with a page where the presentation is
locked up in the HTML Turn _javascript_ off and tell them about
functionality.

Explain to them about the importance of web sites being interoperable
with each other - of which standards are a stepping stone towards.

You need to do a CSS Zen Garden for PR :D - even better, take them through the csszengarden.com.

At the end of the day separating the business logic from the
presentation logic helps everyone in the site development and design
food chain. Remember PR and marketing people will respond to completely
different arguments than your web dev peers - $$$, results, traffic,
feet through the door etc etc they generally don't give a hoot about
closing end tags and the like.

HTH
James
On 12/6/05, Donna Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Dear CSS Listers:in another thread, someone essentially asked why code like this, intrying to convince a friend.I don't think he's getting very goodanswers but at any rate, it made me think of a problem I'm having and
I've decided to make a new thread.A non-profit that i've maintained the website for for 8 years or so hasrecently had some special grant money and as part of a package hired aPR firm to work with that segment from the grant (including the
website).They would rather I continue to maintain it but the PR firmfeels otherwise.The situation now, the PR firm has put up a number ofpages, its tag soup, tables, js menu (with graphics) - you know.I've
done the same, based on the PR's firm design - css-p etc.Thenon-profit doesn't know what code is, doesn't know there are browsersother than IE and don't feel they have the time to learn.I need to be able to explain, by looking at the surface, the difference
between standards coding versus you-know-what.Just about the onlything I can come up with is the ability to increase font size in IE.Ialso thought of making a PDA example using Opera's PDA emulator and
comparing the two codings, with screen shots, next to each other and didthat but i don't think they get what they're looking at.Or else makevery short sentences i.e. what the PR firm is doing is the way someone
would have commonly done it five years ago ... Any other ideas.Also, I'm afraid, the PR firm has convinced them thatI am just the in-house volunteer and that *I'm* liable to mess up the
site ... quoting an experience they had when they turned over a site toanother customer.I hope this is enough on-topic for some discussion.best regards,Donna**
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[WSG] getElementById() always returns null

2005-12-05 Thread Chris Lamberson
Through foresight, i already know this will be a very pitiful question to 
real web designers, so bear with me.I was having some trouble finding out why, whenever I call for document.getElementById(id), it returns null (even if there is a valid id-matching element). Consider something simple, like this:

htmlhead

 title_javascript_ Testing/title
 style type=text/css media=screen
  a { font: normal 24px Trebuchet MS; }  p { display: none; }
 /style

 script type=text/_javascript_  var toggle = document.getElementById('toggle');

  var >  toggle. {   onoff.style.display = 'inline';

  }  toggle. {

   onoff.style.display = 'none';  }

 /script/head

body a id=toggle href="" toggle/a

 p id=onoffHello world!/p/body
/htmlSorry I don't have a live example. The point is that the getElementById() calls for some reason appear to return null, as if they didn't find anything. Thanks, any help is appreciated!




Re: [WSG] getElementById() always returns null

2005-12-05 Thread Ben Wong
It's because the code is being executed before the tags with the
matching ids are created.

On 12/6/05, Chris Lamberson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Through foresight, i already know this will be a very pitiful question to
 real web designers, so bear with me.

 I was having some trouble finding out why, whenever I call for
 document.getElementById(id), it returns null (even if there is a valid
 id-matching element). Consider something simple, like this:

 html
 head
  titleJavaScript Testing/title
  style type=text/css media=screen
  a { font: normal 24px Trebuchet MS; }
 p { display: none; }
 /style
  script type=text/javascript
 var toggle = document.getElementById('toggle');
  var onoff = document.getElementById('onoff');
 toggle.onmouseover = function() {
 onoff.style.display = 'inline';
  }
 toggle.onmouseout = function() {
  onoff.style.display = 'none';
 }
  /script
 /head
  body
 a id=toggle href=#Hover toggle/a
  p id=onoffHello world!/p
 /body
 /html

 Sorry I don't have a live example. The point is that the getElementById()
 calls for some reason appear to return null, as if they didn't find
 anything. Thanks, any help is appreciated!



--
Ben Wong
e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
w: http://blog.onehero.net
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RE: [WSG] getElementById() always returns null

2005-12-05 Thread Smith, Eric E \(EM, PTL, Kelly Services, Contractor\)



The 
_javascript_ that's assigning the behavior to your elements is completing before 
the elements are in the dom. Try putting your _javascript_ code in a 
function and calling that function with window.onload like 
this:
 script 
type="text/_javascript_" 
window.> function 
do() { var toggle = 
document.getElementById('toggle'); 
var > 
toggle. 
{ 
onoff.style.display = 'inline'; 
} toggle. 
{ 
onoff.style.display = 'none'; 
} }

  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On 
  Behalf Of Chris LambersonSent: Monday, December 05, 2005 7:58 
  PMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] 
  getElementById() always returns nullThrough foresight, i already know this will 
  be a very pitiful question to real web designers, so bear with 
  me.I was having 
  some trouble finding out why, whenever I call for document.getElementById(id), 
  it returns null (even if there is a valid id-matching element). Consider 
  something simple, like this: htmlhead 
  title_javascript_ Testing/title style 
  type="text/css" media="screen" 
   a { font: normal 24px "Trebuchet MS"; } 
   p { display: none; }  
  /style script 
  type="text/_javascript_" 
   var toggle = document.getElementById('toggle'); 
   var > 
   toggle. { 
onoff.style.display = 
  'inline'; 
   } 
   toggle. { 
onoff.style.display = 'none'; 
   } 
  /script/headbody a 
  id="toggle" href=""Hover toggle/a p 
  id="onoff"Hello world!/p/body /htmlSorry I don't have a live example. The point 
  is that the getElementById() calls for some reason appear to return null, as 
  if they didn't find anything. Thanks, any help is appreciated! 



Re: [WSG] getElementById() always returns null

2005-12-05 Thread Bert Doorn

G'day


I was having some trouble finding out why, whenever I call for
document.getElementById(id), it returns null (even if there is a valid
id-matching element). Consider something simple, like this:


The javascript runs as the page loads. At that point, the 
elements with the ids do not yet exist in the DOM tree (as they 
are still to be loaded).  You'll need to delay the script until 
the page has loaded.  Something like:


function init() {
  var toggle = document.getElementById('toggle');
  var onoff =  document.getElementById('onoff');
  toggle.onmouseover = function() {
onoff.style.display = block
  }
  toggle.onmouseout = function() {
onoff.style.display = none
  }
}
window.onload=init;


Regards
--
Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites

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RE: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-05 Thread Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media]
Additionally to the points already mentioned by others, one very good reason
for coding in standards is to ensure the website will last a long time.

I am sure the organisation you are talking about will not want to create a
new website in a few years time. Show them some of the many websites that
have been created just a few years ago and which now look shocking in new
browsers (e.g. Firefox) because the sites don't adhere to standards. If the
PR company doesn't stick to standards it is likely that new browsers in
future years won't display the site correctly. Which means for the
organisation running the website: spending more money on fixing it. Getting
it right in the first time will save them money and headache in the long
run.

From what you said about the PR agency it sounds as if they are trying to
push you out of the way to get the job (which of course is understandable
from their point of view). The best point you have against them is that they
are a PR agency, not a web development agency. They might be good in
marketing, but they don't have a clue about development. That already shows
in the few bits of code they have provided.

What about making a suggestion to the non-profit organisation: the PR firm
creates the marketing and the design, but you do the development. The
organisation can insist on that and if the PR company is clever they will
accept that offer.

Hope this helps.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Donna Jones
Sent: Tuesday, 6 December 2005 2:01 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] talking points for standards

A non-profit that i've maintained the website for for 8 years or so has
recently had some special grant money and as part of a package hired a PR
firm to work with that segment from the grant (including the website).  They
would rather I continue to maintain it but the PR firm feels otherwise.  The
situation now, the PR firm has put up a number of pages, its tag soup,
tables, js menu (with graphics) - you know.  I've done the same, based on
the PR's firm design - css-p etc.  The non-profit doesn't know what code is,
doesn't know there are browsers other than IE and don't feel they have the
time to learn.

I need to be able to explain, by looking at the surface, the difference
between standards coding versus you-know-what.  Just about the only thing
I can come up with is the ability to increase font size in IE.  I also
thought of making a PDA example using Opera's PDA emulator and comparing the
two codings, with screen shots, next to each other and did that but i don't
think they get what they're looking at.  Or else make very short sentences
i.e. what the PR firm is doing is the way someone would have commonly done
it five years ago ... 

Any other ideas.  Also, I'm afraid, the PR firm has convinced them that I am
just the in-house volunteer and that *I'm* liable to mess up the site ...
quoting an experience they had when they turned over a site to another
customer.

I hope this is enough on-topic for some discussion.

best regards,
Donna

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Re: [WSG] getElementById() always returns null

2005-12-05 Thread Alan Trick
What browser are you using?

That should work on most of them, but Internet Explorer has a
mis-feature were it does something really wierd. I think what it does is
assigns elements with id's to variables with the id's name. I'm not sure
though, I haven't tested it out enough.

The consequence though is that if you try to assign an element to a
variable with the same name as that elements id, IE will fail to assign
the element (the variable will still be null) and it may give a really
cryptic complaint later on if you try to use it again.

Alan Trick

On Tue, 2005-12-06 at 00:58 +, Chris Lamberson wrote:
 . . . .
 
 var toggle = document.getElementById('toggle');
 var onoff = document.getElementById('onoff'); 
 
 . . . .


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Re: [WSG] getElementById() always returns null

2005-12-05 Thread Alan Trick
Nevermind, ignore what I said, Bert is right. Although IE may misbehave
as well, it seems pretty inconsitent and buggy.

On Tue, 2005-12-06 at 09:21 +0800, Bert Doorn wrote:
 G'day
 
  I was having some trouble finding out why, whenever I call for
  document.getElementById(id), it returns null (even if there is a valid
  id-matching element). Consider something simple, like this:
 
 The javascript runs as the page loads. At that point, the 
 elements with the ids do not yet exist in the DOM tree (as they 
 are still to be loaded).  You'll need to delay the script until 
 the page has loaded.  Something like:
 
 function init() {
var toggle = document.getElementById('toggle');
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Re: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-05 Thread Joseph R. B. Taylor

The analogy is quite simple...

If there weren't codes to set guidelines for best practices when 
constructing homes, what kind of homes would most people have?


People have been building sites for years now and have no idea that 
guidelines even exist, let alone take steps to meet them and be up to 
code.


That's the point.  That's why they want to have someone build a site for 
them that has a clue about this stuff.  The day WILL come when there is 
a governing body over the net.  There WAS a day when housing codes DID 
NOT exist and were being worked on and accepted.


Hopefully that clarifies.  At least it works on Realtors

Joe Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com

Patrick H. Lauke wrote:


Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote:

You CAN launch a site without passing code, but there are groups that 
are working together to enforce the integrity of the code. 



And which groups would those be? And what authority do they have over 
the site? Here's where the analogy may well fall apart, rather than 
have the desired impact...



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Re: [WSG] getElementById() always returns null

2005-12-05 Thread Felix Miata
Chris Lamberson wrote:

I think that's the problem I had on both
http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/tmp/dpi-broken.html and
http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/dpi-screen-window.html in certain
development builds of Gecko recently until I got some help with a
workaround now found in the latter but not the former. Don't ask me to
know how it works. I don't see that problem any more either.
-- 
Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord.Psalm 33:12 NIV

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/

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Re: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-05 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote:

That's the point.  That's why they want to have someone build a site for 
them that has a clue about this stuff.  The day WILL come when there is 
a governing body over the net.  There WAS a day when housing codes DID 
NOT exist and were being worked on and accepted.


Call me a cynic, but I seriously doubt that any web standards savvy 
designer/developer may be able to convince clients to hire her by saying 
that in one day there will be a governing body that will make all 
non-standards compliant sites illegal.


--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
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Re: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-05 Thread Mark Harris

Patrick H. Lauke wrote:

Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote:

That's the point.  That's why they want to have someone build a site 
for them that has a clue about this stuff.  The day WILL come when 
there is a governing body over the net.  There WAS a day when housing 
codes DID NOT exist and were being worked on and accepted.



Call me a cynic, but I seriously doubt that any web standards savvy 
designer/developer may be able to convince clients to hire her by saying 
that in one day there will be a governing body that will make all 
non-standards compliant sites illegal.




Further, I seriously doubt that any one body will be governing the net 
and enforcing such standards within the lifetime of the technologies we 
are using to build sites today.


Housing codes are often unique to a municipality or country. What passes 
for housing codes in Pakistan won't fly in Melbourne (maybe Sydney, it 
depends on who you know ;-)


Standards are a good thing in their own right, Joseph. Don't drum up 
mythical fear tactics to try to enforce them. That's the sort of thing 
PR companies get paid to do...


cheers

Mark
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Re: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-05 Thread Joshua Street
The web is intrinsically anarchous to some extent, occasioned in no
small part by individual publishers not beholden to any particular
standard (or even aware of them) -- Geocities users have no incentive
to make their site accessed by a few friends 'standards compliant' if
that increases the amount of work they have to do (or, more
importantly, the knowledge barrier of entry that inhibits adoption).
No-one is going to legislate against this, much less dedicate
resources to enforcing such legislation. So where is the line drawn?
Are micro businesses with a business card website (i.e. one with no
content bar maybe a logo and a contact phone number) expected to
adhere to standards (which are, incidentally, largely not standards
at all)? Would a car raceway website be expected to be accessible by
blind users, who fall outside of their target market? What about music
websites and deaf (to whatever degree) users? Should they be expected
to provide captions for a marginal demographic outside their target?

We can get upset about how they're locking out users with PDAs and
mobile devices and hence potential customers, but that remains a
DECISION made by someone, for whatever reason. Not neccessarily an
informed and intelligent decision, but one nonetheless. Waving the
regulatory flag won't coerce these people into compliance, because
they're unlikely to be aware of what is required. One of the
interesting things about this list is that we all participate
completely contrary to our own commercial interests. Any competitive
advantage building to web standards may have once offered an
individual on this list is being progressively diluted!

Which is, of course, a great thing for the web.

The idea of not doing something now because it could be illegal in the
future is an interesting one, to say the least! Opium used to be
prescribed for medicinal purposes. If you happened to know that it was
bad for someone in the 19th Century, your most compelling argument
would [hopefully] not be hey, that's going to be illegal in a few
decades time, watch out!. I think we're going to see the same thing
with tobacco in the next century. The argument shouldn't be this
might be illegal in the future, so don't do it now -- it makes far
more sense to say hey, this is intrinsically bad for your health now,
and it's probably not a great idea to keep doing it.

Health is realised in accessibilty, interoperability, document
integrity in ten, fifteen, twenty years time, and myriad other things.
That strikes me as a far more sensible set of arguments than saying
it's bad and someone in the distant future MIGHT do something about
it and then you'll regret it.

Josh

On 12/6/05, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote:

  That's the point.  That's why they want to have someone build a site for
  them that has a clue about this stuff.  The day WILL come when there is
  a governing body over the net.  There WAS a day when housing codes DID
  NOT exist and were being worked on and accepted.

 Call me a cynic, but I seriously doubt that any web standards savvy
 designer/developer may be able to convince clients to hire her by saying
 that in one day there will be a governing body that will make all
 non-standards compliant sites illegal.

 --
 Patrick H. Lauke
 __
 re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
 [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
 www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
 http://redux.deviantart.com
 __
 Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
 http://webstandards.org/
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Joshua Street

http://www.joahua.com/
+61 (0) 425 808 469
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RE: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-05 Thread Barrie North
Web standards

So assuming you want to make a case to a client

Strategy 1
Yes, accessibility, W3C, design for the future, screen readers, more elegant
code, blah blah blah

Try this and you will be sounding like the teacher in the Charlie Brown
cartoons I feel

Strategy 2
Do you want to save 20% on bandwidth costs?
Do you want to reach 10-20% more viewers?
Do you want to save 25% in your next site revision or redesign?
Do you want a site that is more usable and results in more viewer
conversion?

Call me a cynic, but its all about the green..

Barrie North
http://www.droppingknowledge.org/bin/dkbin?ml=72



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RE: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-05 Thread Scott Swabey - Lafinboy Productions
The building codes analogy is one I often use myself, but as pointed out
already, it does fall flat when asked for the governing bodies that are
policing the web.

When faced with a client/agency/designer that doesn't (want to/need to)
understand the 'technical' aspects (bandwidth, ease of maintenance,
accessibility, cross UA compatibility, 'standards' compliance, etc) then a
certain amount of licence has to be applied to the explanation and reasoning
for adopting standards. If that involves making a comparison to a standard
in their field of business then so be it.

A client generally simply wants the site to look the way they want and to
work. Can this be achieved using tables, tag soup, intrusive scripting,
deprecated tags and HTML2.0? Yes. Will that site be viewable in the vast
majority of UA's? Yes. So as far as the client is concerned they have a
website that fulfils their requirements.

The aim, then, is to look outside the 'magic' of web development, and put
the benefits into terms that can be quantified in direct financial terms, eg
smaller page size=reduced bandwidth=lower hosting costs, css=quicker site
wide changes=reduced maintenance costs, AND/OR site availability for a range
of users, eg scripting disabled, vision, mobility or mentally impaired, text
only or screen readers, etc. Preventing/limiting access to users corresponds
to a drop in financial return or effectiveness of the website.

Dollars and cents is the language that will convince most, if not all,
sceptics.


Regards

Scott Swabey
Lafinboy Productions
www.lafinboy.com

 Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote:
 
 The day WILL come when there is a governing body over the net.
 There WAS a day when housing codes DID NOT exist and were
 being worked on and accepted.

 Patrick H. Lauke wrote: 
 Call me a cynic, but I seriously doubt that any web standards savvy 
 designer/developer may be able to convince clients to hire 
 her by saying that in one day there will be a governing body that
 will make all non-standards compliant sites illegal.

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Re: [WSG] editor

2005-12-05 Thread Artemis




Thanks :)
I had tried Dreamweaver many moons ago, but I detested it and had a
hard time finding my way around in it. I purchased Frontpage 2003 when
it came out and really fell in love with it. But, since I've been
playing with WordPress I am learning a bit more about validation and
XHTML (which I had never heard of before *blush*) and am also learning
a little bit about CSS... haven't really created any layouts with
Frontpage in quite awhile now. The last semi decent layout that I did
create in Frontpage is my business site. Granted, I had to relearn how
to use Frontpage so I could take advantage of the style= feature, and
could make it to where everything validated. Now mind you, at that time
I knew very little about CSS and only had a small grasp on validation.
To the average jo visiting my business site, it looks nice on the
outside... but to show you my site in here, um, I'm not ready yet as
I'm sure all of you would cringe LOL.

Could you possibly show me some example codes that Frontpage puts out
that would be considered rubbish? I'm one of those hands-on type of
learners, and I need examples :) I see a lot of discussion on teaching
the newbies (which would be me) the right way... but I need actual
examples of what is good and what is bad so that I can see the
differences.

Many thanks for the time everyone spends in here with trying to help us
newbies out :)
Artemis
My Personal Blog http://subliminalconfusion.net

 Original Message 
From: "Conyers, Dwayne, Mr [C]" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org'" wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re:[WSG] editor
Date: 12/5/2005 07:24

  Artemis ink wired:

  
  
Could you pretty please elaborate on "rubbish"? 
I mean, I know what you're saying, but I am 
curious as to what code Frontpage and Dreamweaver 
puts out that is rubbish. 

  
  

Like many M$ tools, FrontPage assumes that it is smarter than you are and
puts non-standard items into your code.  However, it is possible to disable
that behavior and hand-edit your code as desired.  Still, it rates a C-minus
at best... a slight improvement over notepad.

I admit being lazy and using FP (after disabling the "rubbish" features) for
my personal web coding only because it came "free" with M$Office and the
intellisense feature comes in handy. However, I have been considering
upgrading my old copy of UltraDev to the latest DreamWeaver.

Rumor has it M$ will be creating a new FrontPage that incorporates
functionality from the old InterDev tool and perhaps some of the .NET
Enterprise IDE functionality.  I get M$ products free with my company-paid
MSDN so I might take a peek at it, but only for home use -- never for my
clients.


--
Dwacon
www.dwacon.com
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Re: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-05 Thread Lea de Groot

On 06/12/2005, at 12:46 PM, Joshua Street wrote:

We can get upset about how they're locking out users with PDAs and
mobile devices and hence potential customers, but that remains a
DECISION made by someone, for whatever reason. Not neccessarily an
informed and intelligent decision, but one nonetheless.


Actually, I tend to think that the real problem is that a decision  
*wasn't* made, but a 'path of least resistance' taken, in the face of  
ignorance[1]
The OP's clients aren't saying 'we've looked at all this standards  
stuff and have decided that a maintenance intensive, non-accessible,  
more expensive production is for us!' That would be a decision (and,  
yes, a strange one). Instead, they are saying 'we should what? huh?  
never heard of that! why should we? These experts we've paid lots of  
money too say thats not right'.



Waving the
regulatory flag won't coerce these people into compliance


but I generally agree with the rest of what you've said :)

Lea
[1] Sorry, I think I've mixed a metaphor there... certainly not  
meeting grammatical standards ;)

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Re: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-05 Thread Bert Doorn

G'day


Dollars and cents is the language that will convince most, if not all,
sceptics.


The problem I face in that regard is that a lot of sales 
enquiries I get are from people who want to maintain their own 
site, for next to nothing.


They don't want to spend money on a content management system 
(which is overkill anyway, if the updates are few and far 
between).  Many think they can maintain a site with Frontpage, 
which, after all, is relatively cheap.  I can't help them, unless 
I throw standards compliance out the door.


As far as (server) bandwidth is concerned, it only matters for 
big sites with a lot of traffic, or sites with a host that 
provides a ridiculously low quota.


When it comes to search engines, can anyone prove that lean code 
is better? Has anyone done research on this claim? Google is full 
of tagsoup sites that are highly ranked.


I searched for web design in Google (pages from Australia 
only).  The top 3 (non sponsored) sites used tables for layout, 
none of them validated and only one had a doctype. They all used 
some CSS but only in addition to the tagsoup.


So where are the benefits?

Regards
--
Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites

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Re: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-05 Thread Terrence Wood
Donna Jones said:
 A non-profit that i've maintained the website for for 8 years or so has
 recently...hired a PR firm.

Why do the PR firm think they should maintain the site and not you?

Have they put forward any compelling reasons why they are better qualified
to look after a web site? Get them to justify their position.

What are the long term implications when the grant money runs out?

Ultimately the PR firm works for the NFP, not the other way round, get
your NFP to grow a spine. (OK I realise you might need a lot more tact
than that, but y'know, fire them up a bit!!!)


kind regards
Terrence Wood.

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Re: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-05 Thread Jay Gilmore




Do you really want those customers who want to maintain their pages in
Frontage only to load up your design with unoptimized images, tables
and tag sludge? You put this site in your portfolio and a prospect goes
to visit your butchered site. These clients are also the worst for
taking up too much time. I am focused on small business but I am not
desperate for work. I don't do crap jobs for crap clients. If I have a
challenging client it is someone who has engaged my services on my
terms. 

I don't push standards, I build ever better sites. When I do something
of note for my client I let them know. I don't know if you will ever be
able promote standards to small business. You will have better luck
with larger companies.

I think I may take some of the suggestions in this article and
formulate a case for standards adoption for publication on my site.

All the best,

Jay


Jay Gilmore
Developer/Consultant
Affordable Websites and Marketing Solutions for Real
Small Business.
SmashingRed Web  Marketing
P) 902.529.0651
E) [EMAIL PROTECTED]




Bert Doorn wrote:
G'day
  
  
  Dollars and cents is the language that will
convince most, if not all,

sceptics.

  
  
The problem I face in that regard is that a lot of sales enquiries I
get are from people who want to maintain their own site, for next to
nothing.
  
  
They don't want to spend money on a content management system (which is
overkill anyway, if the updates are few and far between). Many think
they can maintain a site with Frontpage, which, after all, is
relatively cheap. I can't help them, unless I throw standards
compliance out the door.
  
  
As far as (server) bandwidth is concerned, it only matters for big
sites with a lot of traffic, or sites with a host that provides a
ridiculously low quota.
  
  
When it comes to search engines, can anyone prove that lean code is
better? Has anyone done research on this claim? Google is full of
tagsoup sites that are highly ranked.
  
  
I searched for "web design" in Google (pages from Australia only). The
top 3 (non sponsored) sites used tables for layout, none of them
validated and only one had a doctype. They all used some CSS but only
in addition to the tagsoup.
  
  
So where are the benefits?
  
  
Regards
  





Re: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-05 Thread Ric Jude Raftis
I've only recently joined this group and I find this an interesting 
discussion because it is a daily challenge for designers who are 
desperately trying to do the right thing.  I'm sure we would all love to 
see the back of the cowboys in the industry who throw a Frontpage site 
together with no doctype and proprietary styles for $200 to the 
unsuspecting and naive client.


The question is, how many designers include icons and links on their 
sites back to W3C for XHTML and CSS?  How many include an icon for 
Accessibility?  Personally, I don't have all my sites Triple A 
compliant, but they do pass automated validation and I include a 
Statement to this effect on sites.


I feel that by exposing clients and their visitors to such icons that it 
spreads the word about standards.  It makes more people aware that they 
actually exist and I would encourage all designers to include such icons 
on their sites.


Kind regards,


Ric
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Re: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-05 Thread Christian Montoya
On 12/5/05, Ric  Jude Raftis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 The question is, how many designers include icons and links on their
 sites back to W3C for XHTML and CSS?  How many include an icon for
 Accessibility?  Personally, I don't have all my sites Triple A
 compliant, but they do pass automated validation and I include a
 Statement to this effect on sites.

 I feel that by exposing clients and their visitors to such icons that it
 spreads the word about standards.  It makes more people aware that they
 actually exist and I would encourage all designers to include such icons
 on their sites.

I don't think those little icons/buttons are enough, though. I think
an About this site page with accessibility features, explanation of
standards compliance, etc. is a lot better, since it explains the
quality of the code rather than just sending visitors to some cryptic
validation page.

Even then, though, I wonder if clients or users read that kind of
stuff. I'm having a hard time putting myself in their shoes on this
one.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com
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Re: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-05 Thread Donna Jones

Terrence and all:  thank you for all your replies.

Lea said she thought accessibility was my strongest suit and I agree 
with that.  At least font-size increase is something that can be seen 
on the surface, and perhaps other accessibility issues that I haven't 
thought about.  I did think today of making screen shots in the Lynx 
emulator. its grant money but not government - yes, i guess there are 
still a few out there.  and, yes, they should care about accessibility 
and i think they do from a its the right thing to do standpoint.


Most of the other suggestions people have spoken of, though i find it a 
good review, are not applicable to my situation since i really am 
dealing with a what is a browser crowd.  I'd done the website 
(inherited at that point) for years before i could get anyone to pay any 
attention to it.


Lea, interesting you thought i was from the UK.  wonder if i type with a 
British accent - it should be a southern, u.s, but living in the 
northeast for the last 25 years accent! :)


Oh, someone mentioned showing everyone csszengardens  i did that 
already, in a very early meeting (the first and only one i was invited 
to).  my intent was to show the font-size increase bit.  Imagine my 
surprise when it wouldn't increase!  Yes, csszengardens won't increase 
font size in IE.  Of course, it would be different today so that's not a 
criticism and its interesting to read in CSS Zen Gardens (the book) 
about why the site is a time snapshot as far as the code.  Just don't 
go there to demonstrate accessibility. ;)



Terrence Wood wrote:


Why do the PR firm think they should maintain the site and not you?


Terrence, i don't think they want to maintain it, i think they want to 
deliver the whole thing as a way to justify the amount they had 
anticipated getting.


its all a bit convuloted (sp?) at this point - early on i told my 
non-profit that i would be happy to maintain it if the code met certain 
guidelines and those were spelled out and at least one place they were 
written down.  They were, off-the-top-of-my-head, css floating is the 
way it was written, no tables, font-size increasble, meeting accessible 
guidelines in general.  I also told them I would let it go if they'd 
rather get someone else but apparently there was no one chopping at the 
bit to take it on and they didn't want to look for anyone else.


A number of months have passed  the PR firm is saying now that 
they've done a lot of work (even to the point of volunteering, heh, 
can't imagine that)  they want to deliver the whole site.


I can't use their code and have done a lot myself.  so the bottom line 
is how to explain that i can't use the PRs firm's code.  I have a 
feeling the non-profit will end up paying the full amount for 
essentially two pages of design and i'll end up donating a *lot* of my 
time because the budget will be spent on the PR firm.



Have they put forward any compelling reasons why they are better qualified
to look after a web site? Get them to justify their position.

What are the long term implications when the grant money runs out?


well, the PR firm would not work for free, I would - therefore, I think 
I'll end up being the one responsible.  Unless I actively quit.  and 
the long-term implications are that i don't mind continuing my 
volunteering if its code that i find easy, and enjoyable, to work with. 
 I don't know what the $$ parameters are but my sense is that the 
non-profit doesn't understand why i have to change all the coding and 
therefore doesn't understand why i have to put all this work into it 
and I'm afraid the budget is eaten up by the PR firm and so the NP is 
feeling badly that I'm in the position, once again, of donating a lot 
of my time.  Ideally, in their view, i think, they'd like for me to say, 
yes, the PR's code is great and groovy and I'll continue maintenance, 
updating, no problem    I've created a bit of a dilemna because i 
can't, won't, do that ...



Ultimately the PR firm works for the NFP, not the other way round, get
your NFP to grow a spine. (OK I realise you might need a lot more tact
than that, but y'know, fire them up a bit!!!)


Yes, the woman with the PR firm is very, shall we say assertive  
I'm just the in-house volunteer (never mind that I know what I'm doing 
or am getting there or at least know where to go to get help!) and not 
particularly assertive, by inclination.  There was a contract signed and 
i'm sure that figures into all the equations.


well, done it again, wrote another book!

best wishes,
Donna

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Re: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-05 Thread Peter J. Farrell

Donna Jones wrote:

... I'm afraid the budget is eaten up by the PR firm and so the NP is 
feeling badly that I'm in the position, once again, of donating a 
lot of my time.  Ideally, in their view, i think, they'd like for me 
to say, yes, the PR's code is great and groovy and I'll continue 
maintenance, updating, no problem    I've created a bit of a 
dilemna because i can't, won't, do that ...


I've been put in similar position by non-profit.  I was their webmaster 
for many years and volunteered my every minute of my time.  When they 
received a large grant for technologies improvements, I asked if I could 
put in a bid.  After spending a some time developing a detailed bid, the 
process became stalled and I never got the opportunity to even place a 
bid.  I later found out that they contracted a firm in which someone on 
the board of directors knew or at least I believe so (the details are 
sketchy).


In the end, I felt very used as a volunteer.  I recommend that anybody 
who volunteers for a non-profit, discuss ownership of code/designs when 
you volunteer.  I was happy that I was able put a co-copyright on the 
website and in files.  If problems arise, things resolve more easily 
because of that.


Anyways, I wanted to say that you've not created a dilemma for 
yourself.  Maybe this is just life saying you need to move on to newer 
and better things -- even though this still might feel near and dear to 
you.  If you still want to volunteer your time, find a struggling 
non-profit that means someone to you and especially one that doesn't 
have website or has a poor one.  Best of luck during this process for 
you Donna...


Best,
.Peter

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http://blog.maestropublishing.com

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Re: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-05 Thread Lea de Groot

On 06/12/2005, at 4:48 PM, Peter J. Farrell wrote:
In the end, I felt very used as a volunteer.  I recommend that  
anybody who volunteers for a non-profit, discuss ownership of code/ 
designs when you volunteer.  I was happy that I was able put a co- 
copyright on the website and in files.  If problems arise, things  
resolve more easily because of that.


Its a little off topic, but one thing I have *always* done when I  
have worked for a non-profit is invoiced them with my normal rates  
anyway - then have the final line on the invoice discount it down to $0

It lets them know just what they are 'getting away with'.

Its important to make appropriate use of the time you donate to a  
charity etc so you increase your skills, but its also important not  
to be walked over.


HIH
Lea
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Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems
Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-05 Thread Donna Jones

Peter J. Farrell wrote:


Donna Jones wrote:

... I'm afraid the budget is eaten up by the PR firm and so the NP is 
feeling badly that I'm in the position, once again, of donating a 
lot of my time.  Ideally, in their view, i think, they'd like for me 
to say, yes, the PR's code is great and groovy and I'll continue 
maintenance, updating, no problem    I've created a bit of a 
dilemna because i can't, won't, do that ...



I've been put in similar position by non-profit.  I was their webmaster 
for many years and volunteered my every minute of my time.  When they 
received a large grant for technologies improvements, I asked if I could 
put in a bid.  After spending a some time developing a detailed bid, the 
process became stalled and I never got the opportunity to even place a 
bid.  I later found out that they contracted a firm in which someone on 
the board of directors knew or at least I believe so (the details are 
sketchy).


In the end, I felt very used as a volunteer.  I recommend that anybody 
who volunteers for a non-profit, discuss ownership of code/designs when 
you volunteer.  I was happy that I was able put a co-copyright on the 
website and in files.  If problems arise, things resolve more easily 
because of that.


Anyways, I wanted to say that you've not created a dilemma for 
yourself.  Maybe this is just life saying you need to move on to newer 
and better things -- even though this still might feel near and dear to 
you.  If you still want to volunteer your time, find a struggling 
non-profit that means someone to you and especially one that doesn't 
have website or has a poor one.  Best of luck during this process for 
you Donna...


Thanks Peter, yes it sounds like a very similar situation.  Luckily I 
have one non-profit that does appreciate and pays me!  and I won big 
points with them because of accessibility.  I had made their web-site 
pretty much accessible (this was probably four/five years ago).  They 
had gone to a national conference and attended the website workshop. 
Lo and behold their website got pronounced as best because the font 
size could increase and they came back very happy.  Just a story of how 
accessibility can pay off, I didn't do it for that reason but was glad 
to have the points!


but, yes, back to my problem child non-profit.  It may be time to let 
it go, it is hard to see them get a poor website and pay a fair amount 
of money for it ... it is also hard to validate myself and get them to 
know that i do know what i'm doing, at least tons more than the PR firm.
But thanks for saying that I didn't create the dilemma ... I'll try to 
take that to heart.  I suspect its a pretty common situation; and, to be 
honest, when i first took it on, at no reimbursement, i was simply 
chomping at the bits to have something to do and probably felt like i 
should pay them for letting me do it.  I've changed a bit since then!


Thanks again for your kind note and understanding.

Donna




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