Re: [WSG] standards or confusion?

2005-12-07 Thread Bob Schwartz
Lachlan,I'm going to take your much appreciated response one bit at a time.By doing as you suggested, I lose the point of having used the JS in the first place.(For the purposes of this discussion, let's assume that having the copyright notices reflect the current year is a desired thing).With the JS all copyright notices are automaticaly updated when the year changes, with your method I would have to go back to each site and manualy change them.This is sort of the contrary to one of the reasons for seperating structure from presentation in the "why CSS is good"  argument.BobThis one all alone on the page, with no linked JS in the head: div id="copy" script type="text/_javascript_" var d=new Date(); yr=d.getFullYear(); if (yr!=2003) document.write("copy; "+yr); /scriptnbsp;Cedar Tree Books /div  p id="copy"© 2005 Cedar Tree Books/p  No script (or entity reference) required. 

Re: [WSG] standards or confusion?

2005-12-07 Thread Bob Schwartz

I suppose you mean PHP or ASP or similar?

If so, wouldn't this be taking things to an extreme just to do a  
simple copyright that is already handled so well with this little JS?


Bob


Javascript is for behaviour, not content (or structure, really).
Therefore, if you want to dynamically change a year like that, it
SHOULD be enshrined in markup (which means static or server-side
processing).

On 12/7/05, Bob Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Lachlan,

I'm going to take your much appreciated response one bit at a time.

By doing as you suggested, I lose the point of having used the JS  
in the

first place.

(For the purposes of this discussion, let's assume that having the  
copyright

notices reflect the current year is a desired thing).
With the JS all copyright notices are automaticaly updated when  
the year
changes, with your method I would have to go back to each site and  
manualy

change them.
This is sort of the contrary to one of the reasons for seperating  
structure

from presentation in the why CSS is good  argument.

Bob





This one all alone on the page, with no linked JS in the head:

div id=copy

script type=text/javascript

var d=new Date();

yr=d.getFullYear();

if (yr!=2003)

document.write(copy; +yr);

/scriptnbsp;Cedar Tree Books

/div




p id=copy(c) 2005 Cedar Tree Books/p




No script (or entity reference) required.




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Re: [WSG] standards or confusion?

2005-12-07 Thread Lachlan Hunt

Bob Schwartz wrote:

This one all alone on the page, with no linked JS in the head:
div id=copy
script type=text/javascript
...
document.write(copy; +yr);
/scriptnbsp;Cedar Tree Books
/div


p id=copy© 2005 Cedar Tree Books/p

No script (or entity reference) required.


I'm going to take your much appreciated response one bit at a time.

By doing as you suggested, I lose the point of having used the JS in the 
first place.


I realise that, but by using javascript to output content, you're not 
really separating the layers.  You could use a server side script to 
generate it or simply use a serve side include file in all your pages, 
where you would only have to update it once.


If you really want the client side script, you could do something like this:

p id=copy© Cedar Tree Books/p

var txtCopy = document.getElementById(copy).childNodes.item(0);
var year = (new Date()).getFullYear();
txtCopy.replaceData(1, 0,   + year);

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http://lachy.id.au/

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Re: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-07 Thread Robert O'Neill


I made the comparison to the construction industry because:

1. we are both in the business of building things

and 

2. the standards used benefit the end user.

A 'brickie' lays bricks in one of a number of standard methods using standard materials. The benefit of this is that the house shouldn't fall down on top of you under agreed environment conditions. 

The other intrinsic link betwen the two industries is legislation. Health and Safety Law has driven many of the standards introduced into the building trade, and they have become a legal requirement before a brick is laid. 

Accessibility leglisation will drive standards for websites just as they do access to shops, businesses, and government buildings. I do not condone nor ever wish for a central agency telling us how we must design our sites, we should retain some form of artistic license just as architects, shop front designers, and window dressers do. However I am totally in favour of a central agency regulating how the sites are actually constructed. 

Whether 'illegal' websites are persued by law as much as dangerous buildings is in truth unlikely. Bad buildings kill, bad web sites are just a pain to some, but that doesn't make me any more comfortable with the idea of constructing a site with tag-soup, both morally, ethically, or legally.





 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/12/2005 17:52:38 
The other problem with the validation logos is that they don't always mean that the page is valid. In my experience, a large number of sites with these logos don't serve valid code and fail the test that they link to. I think that this analog with the construction world is not really satisfactory as the need for, and potential repercussions of, standards and 'validity' and compliance when building a house is much greater than when just serving data. BEFORE I get shot down in flames for blasphemy, I DO think that web standards are important and I agree that XHTML should not be abused. BUT when a website fails, no-one gets injures (except maybe the mainainter if they have a violent boss :) ). I don't think that any suitable analogy can really be used for this case because the potential benefits of Semantics and good data presentation are immense and unique, but only for large data sources. There is a reason why LaTeX isn't taught to 16 year-olds in schools to do essays with, it may produce nice, accurate, readable layouts but to spend the time and effort trying to beat it into people is counter-productive. StephenRobert O'Neill wrote: If I wanted new windows in my house I'd buy from the BS Standard  compliant company every time, wouldn't you ?  The thing is though, if I click on the BS Standard logo it can't prove  to me that the company is actually compliant , however in our  industry, we as web designers can use our W3C logos to prove the  point, by linking them to the validators.  Some might find this argument slightly flaky as a BS Standard is an  acknowledgment of quality rather than validity. The problem we have  though is that until the consequences of legislation fully kick in  (DDA etc) we are still being allowed to regulate ourselves and W3C  !
validation seems to be the only option available.  So I'll continue to add W3C validation logos to my sites until an  official Govt. Standard is set. Considering the UK Government bases  most of its current web standards (eGIF, NHS Standards etc) on W3C  recommendations, I'll hopefully be in a decent position should that  ever happen.  Rob O.   [EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/12/2005 16:42:46  I thought of a number of points relating to this standards issue... The icons by w3c and others are meaningless and are a problem. They  need to have meaning to the reader. The average web visitor doesn't  even know that the W3C exists, let alone that they make  recommendations or determine structure and validity. When I first  moved into the realm of writing better code (still honing skills) I  didn't know what they were.In order to create meaning it has to  represent actual value, ROI or benefit to users and buyers of our  services. We, as developers need to be talking, not to the individual business  owner but to business leaders in each segment and show them, not tell  them how this will benefit them. I belong to several business forums and nowhere are you going to see a  discussion of web standards and accessibility as most of these people  don't know what that don't know. They all feel that how a site looks  determines quality. Like it or not -- the only measure of the success of a website is the  return on investment or an increase in profits or some other metric.  If a business can achieve that with tag soup they are going to be  happy. But most small business owners don't even consider this point.  They just want a website, so they hire a firm that has websites they  like to lo!
ok at or that look good. We as an industry need to band together and make standards mean  something that business owners can't live without. No FUD 

Re: [WSG] standards or confusion?

2005-12-07 Thread Martin Heiden
Bob,

on Tuesday, December 6, 2005 at 18:57 wsg@webstandardsgroup.org wrote:

 These connected to a linked JS in the head:

 1. a href=http://www.fotografics.it; onclick=popUp 
 (this.href,'elastic',500,650);return false;nbsp;powered by:  
 FotoGrafics/a

a href=http://www.fotografics.it; 
rel=popUp(type=elastic;width=500;height=650)nbsp;powered by: FotoGrafics/a

In an external JavaScript:

var links = document.getElementsByTagName(a);
for(var i=0; ilinks.length;i++) {
  if(links[i].getAttribute(rel)) {
var relation = getRelation(links[i]);
var params = getParams(links[i]);
switch(relation) {
  case 'popUp':
links[i].onclick = new Function(return 
!popUp('+links[i].getAttribute(href)+','+params['type']+','+params['width']+','+params['height']+'););
links[i].setAttribute(title,Link opens new window);
break;
}
  }
}

function getRelation(obj) {
  var rel=obj.getAttribute(rel);
  if(!rel)return false;
  return rel.indexOf(()==-1?rel:rel.substring(0,rel.indexOf(());
}

function getParams(obj) {
  var rel=obj.getAttribute(rel);
  if(!rel)return false;
  if(rel.indexOf(()==-1||rel.indexOf())==-1) return [];
  var pliste = rel.substring(rel.indexOf(()+1,rel.indexOf()))
  var result = [];
  var parameter = pliste.split(;);
  for(var i=0;iparameter.length;i++) {
var nameValue = parameter[i].split(=);
result[nameValue[0]]=nameValue[1];
  }
  return result;
}

This isn't perfect, but at least a start. Probably it is better to use
the class attribute. The rest could also be done simpler and faster...
I'm far from being a JavaScript-Guru ;-)

 2. div id=homea href=# tabindex=1 onfocus=P7_trigNV 
 ('p7NVim10') onblur=P7_trigNV() onmouseover=P7_trigNV 
 ('p7NVim10') onmouseout=P7_trigNV()img src=as/im/v2_01.jpg  
 alt= width=88 height=25 id=p7NVim10 //a/div

Do you have a page where we can see what should happen?

 3. body onload=P7_setNV('p7NVim10',2);P7_trigNV()

http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2005/10/_and_the_winner_1.html

But with all the comments...

Then:

addEvent(body,'load',function() { P7_setNV('p7NVim10',2) });
addEvent(body,'load',P7_trigNV);

 This one all alone on the page, with no linked JS in the head:

 div id=copy
 script type=text/javascript
 var d=new Date();
 yr=d.getFullYear();
 if (yr!=2003)
 document.write(copy; +yr);
 /scriptnbsp;Cedar Tree Books
 /div

Do it on the serverside!!!

regards

  Martin

 



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Re: [WSG] standards or confusion?

2005-12-07 Thread Peter J. Farrell

Martin Heiden wrote:


Do it on the serverside!!!


Maybe I'm a cycle head, but it seems silly to use computation cycles 
(although very little) to compute a year that changes only once per 
year.  Use a server side include or hard code it in your footer template 
and remember to change it in the new year.  Guess this is my enterprise 
application architecture brain talking here.


.Peter

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http://blog.maestropublishing.com

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Re: [WSG] getElementById() always returns null

2005-12-07 Thread Roberto Gorjão

Hi Chris,

As JavaScript isn't a precompiled language (rather a scripting one), 
functions, objects and variables are processed one after another, 
following the source order. When you declare your variables, the browser 
is not yet aware of the existence of the two requested elements. You 
have several alternatives:


To place your script after the two a and p elements, inside the body 
tags ( it's probably not the nicest way but it functions...):

-
html
head
   titleJavaScript Testing/title
   style type=text/css media=screen
   a { font: normal 24px Trebuchet MS; }
   p { display: none; }
   /style
/head
body
   a id=toggle href=#Hover toggle/a
   p id=onoffHello world!/p
  script type=text/javascript
   var toggle = document.getElementById('toggle');
   var onoff = document.getElementById('onoff');
   toggle.onmouseover = function() {
   onoff.style.display = 'inline';
   }
   toggle.onmouseout = function() {
   onoff.style.display = 'none';
   }
   /script
/body
/html

To write a simple function and call it with the onmouseover and 
onmouseout event handlers inside the elements tags:


html
head
   titleJavaScript Testing/title
   style type=text/css media=screen
   a { font: normal 24px Trebuchet MS; }
   p { display: none; }
   /style
   script type=text/javascript
   function toggle(status) {
   var onoff = document.getElementById('onoff');
   onoff.style.display = status;
   }
   /script
/head
body
   a id=toggle href=# onMouseOver=toggle('block'); 
onMouseOut=toggle('none');Hover toggle/a

   p id=onoffHello world!/p
/body
/html
---
To write a more complicated function and call it with a onLoad event 
handler in the body tag, which delays the processing of the function and 
its variables till all the objects are loaded in memory by the browser:


html
head
   titleJavaScript Testing/title
   style type=text/css media=screen
   a { font: normal 24px Trebuchet MS; }
   p { display: none; }
   /style
   script type=text/javascript
   function toggleOnOff() {
   var toggle = document.getElementById('toggle');
   var onoff = document.getElementById('onoff');
   toggle.onmouseover = function() {
   onoff.style.display = 'block';
   }
   toggle.onmouseout = function() {
  onoff.style.display = 'none';
   }
   }
   /script
/head
body onLoad=toggleOnOff();
   a id=toggle href=#Hover toggle/a
   p id=onoffHello world!/p
/body
/html
-
HTH!
Roberto

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[WSG] page check please - mime type!

2005-12-07 Thread designer

Dear colleagues,

Forgive my labouring the point, but after our discussions I have done 
what Gunlaug did, i.e., made a page as xhtml, with the headers as below:


!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN
   http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd;
html lang=en
 xml:lang=en
 xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml;
head
titleThe Area/title
meta http-equiv=Content-Type
   content=application/xhtml+xml; charset=utf-8 /

I saved as xhtml and IE went daft. I saved as html and all seemed fine.  
However, the site I'm working on has a fair bit of PHP in it, so I saved 
it as .php.  All seems fine, including IE.


You can see my test page at:

http://www.rhh.myzen.co.uk/rhh/thearea/area.php

So, my seemingly silly question is: Is this OK?  Does it fall apart for 
anybody? (mac esp?)


and, of course, is it OK to do this, and indeed, is this what I 'should' 
be doing (Lachlan?)


Many thanks,

--
Best Regards,

Bob McClelland

Cornwall (UK)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk


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Re: [WSG] page check please - mime type!

2005-12-07 Thread Srecko Micic
It looks ok. It is validated.


2005/12/7, designer [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 Dear colleagues,

 Forgive my labouring the point, but after our discussions I have done
 what Gunlaug did, i.e., made a page as xhtml, with the headers as below:

 !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN
 http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd;
 html lang=en
   xml:lang=en
   xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml;
 head
 titleThe Area/title
 meta http-equiv=Content-Type
 content=application/xhtml+xml; charset=utf-8 /

 I saved as xhtml and IE went daft. I saved as html and all seemed fine.
 However, the site I'm working on has a fair bit of PHP in it, so I saved
 it as .php.  All seems fine, including IE.

 You can see my test page at:

 http://www.rhh.myzen.co.uk/rhh/thearea/area.php

 So, my seemingly silly question is: Is this OK?  Does it fall apart for
 anybody? (mac esp?)

 and, of course, is it OK to do this, and indeed, is this what I 'should'
 be doing (Lachlan?)

 Many thanks,

 --
 Best Regards,

 Bob McClelland

 Cornwall (UK)
 www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk


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Re: [WSG] page check please - mime type!

2005-12-07 Thread Lachlan Hunt

designer wrote:
Forgive my labouring the point, but after our discussions I have done 
what Gunlaug did, i.e., made a page as xhtml, with the headers as below:


!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN
   http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd;
html lang=en
 xml:lang=en
 xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml;
head
titleThe Area/title
meta http-equiv=Content-Type
   content=application/xhtml+xml; charset=utf-8 /


Changing the MIME type in the meta element is completely useless, as the 
application needs to know the MIME type in order to know how to parse it 
*before* it begins parsing.  Once it has reached that meta element, 
parsing has already begun.  It is the MIME type sent by the server in 
the HTTP Content-Type header that matters, and for your page it sends 
text/html.


See the HTTP headers:
http://cgi.w3.org/cgi-bin/headers?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rhh.myzen.co.uk%2Frhh%2Fthearea%2Farea.php

You may see what happens when the page is really served as 
application/xhtml+xml.

http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/cgi/content-type-proxy/content-type-proxy?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rhh.myzen.co.uk%2Frhh%2Fthearea%2Farea.phptype=application%2Fxhtml%2Bxml

Note: The reason the stylesheet isn't applied at all in this case has 
nothing to do with it being served as XML, it's only because it's linked 
with a relative URI and via that proxy, it no longer points to the right 
place.  If you change all paths to absolute URIs pointing to your server 
and the result will be better.  It does, however, demonstrate that your 
page is at least well-formed.


I saved as xhtml and IE went daft. I saved as html and all seemed fine.  
However, the site I'm working on has a fair bit of PHP in it, so I saved 
it as .php.  All seems fine, including IE.


Because it's php, you can use the header() function to send the correct 
Content-Type header.  Place this before any content is output.


header(Content-Type: application/xhtml+xml);

However, doing so will lock out any IE users and Google, but you may as 
well completely remove the meta element, because it's only an inferior 
substitute for real HTTP headers.  Use this instead:


header(Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8);

If you choose to do content negotiation and serve application/xhtml+xml 
to browsers that support it and text/html to those that don't, be aware 
that it prevents incremental rendering in Mozilla.



You can see my test page at:

http://www.rhh.myzen.co.uk/rhh/thearea/area.php

So, my seemingly silly question is: Is this OK?  Does it fall apart for 
anybody? (mac esp?)


and, of course, is it OK to do this, and indeed, is this what I 'should' 
be doing (Lachlan?)


You may as well just use valid HTML 4.01 Strict.  See XHTML is not for 
Beginners, the MIME type issue is just one of the many reasons.


http://lachy.id.au/log/2005/12/xhtml-beginners

(yes, I'm aware of the irony that the article itself is XHTML as 
text/html, but that's the useless default wordpress template that I'm 
too lazy to fix up)


Lastly, with regard to the style element within the page:
style type=text/css
/*![CDATA[*/
!--
@import url(../css/areastyle.css);
--
/*]]*/
/style

You may as well remove the fake XML comment (!-- and --) in there, 
it's effectively useless these days, although keeping it as is will do 
no harm because of the CDATA section.


Keep the /*![CDATA[*/ and /*]]*/ in there, they're the most effective 
way to handle the different parsing requirements of HTML and XHTML.  See 
this article that discusses the issue in great detail:


http://lachy.id.au/log/2005/05/script-comments

--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/

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Re: [WSG] page check please - mime type!

2005-12-07 Thread Marilyn Langfeld

Looks fine in Mac Firefox 1.5 and Safari 2.02.

Best regards,

Marilyn Langfeld
Langfeldesigns
http://www.langfeldesigns.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



On Dec 7, 2005, at 8:13 AM, designer wrote:


Dear colleagues,

Forgive my labouring the point, but after our discussions I have  
done what Gunlaug did, i.e., made a page as xhtml, with the headers  
as below:


!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN
   http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd;
html lang=en
 xml:lang=en
 xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml;
head
titleThe Area/title
meta http-equiv=Content-Type
   content=application/xhtml+xml; charset=utf-8 /

I saved as xhtml and IE went daft. I saved as html and all seemed  
fine.  However, the site I'm working on has a fair bit of PHP in  
it, so I saved it as .php.  All seems fine, including IE.


You can see my test page at:

http://www.rhh.myzen.co.uk/rhh/thearea/area.php

So, my seemingly silly question is: Is this OK?  Does it fall apart  
for anybody? (mac esp?)


and, of course, is it OK to do this, and indeed, is this what I  
'should' be doing (Lachlan?)


Many thanks,

--
Best Regards,

Bob McClelland

Cornwall (UK)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk


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Re: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-07 Thread Stephen Stagg
I was being specific and not defining the situation well, my bad.  In 
the UK it is against the law to provide an inaccessible service.  
Therefore ONLY in the field of Accessibility, it is within the rights of 
any disabled person to demand that any UK site should be accessible.  In 
practice, it means at least passing the WAG 1 test. 

I don't think that Managers and The-people-who-control-the-money do 
believe that not following standards will cost them and publicising web 
standards is still a big issue.


Stephen

Duckworth, Nigel wrote:
Stephen Stagg: 
  

A better way to force the implementation of Accessibility
standards would be to set up a group, or just urge disabled 
people, to sue companies and web hosts who serve inaccessible 
sites. Once people and customers realize that getting it 
wrong will cost them, I'm sure that they will soon mend 
their ways.



Wow. Isn't one of the arguments for web standards that getting it wrong
will cost you? Obviously not enough in your estimation. I do believe
that standards and accessibility are beneficial but that's a question
that each individual, designer and business should decide for
themselves. No one has the right to force them to conform [1]. In my
opinion such we know what's good for you arrogance only harms the
standards movement. 

Regards, 


-Nigel

[1] http://nigelduckworth.com/publishing/?p=3

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Re: [WSG] standards or confusion?

2005-12-07 Thread Carl Reynolds

Peter J. Farrell wrote:


Martin Heiden wrote:


Do it on the serverside!!!



Maybe I'm a cycle head, but it seems silly to use computation cycles 
(although very little) to compute a year that changes only once per 
year.  Use a server side include or hard code it in your footer 
template and remember to change it in the new year.  Guess this is my 
enterprise application architecture brain talking here.


.Peter

To me the real problem with this example is that by entering the 
copyright year into the document using JavaScript, you are letting the 
user decide which year your document is copyrighted in.


If the user's machine time is not set correctly, your copyright date 
will reflect whatever year the time is set to. I realize that very few 
people have their clocks set so far off that this will be a major 
problem, but, it is important to keep in mind that JavaScript is a 
client side language and you need to be aware that changes in the client 
machine's environment will affect the document they see when you are 
using JavaScript to generate content based on the user environment.


For things like copyright notices, I agree with Peter that they should 
be generated server side, or hard coded into the page. However, I think 
the point of  Bob's example, is to ask the question: How should I write 
the JavaScript if I have an item in one or more pages that changes 
dynamically with time or with each page load?


I think Lachlans answer is that strict separation of  behavior and 
content creates a better structure for the page that is easier to create 
and maintain. I personally feel that moving a single line of JavaScript 
to a separate file is pushing this paradigm too far. However, putting a 
single line of JavaScript in every link on a page would have the same 
effect as in-lining all your CSS. If you ever have to make a change to 
the page, you will be searching through the content to find all those 
single JavaScript line rather than looking in one file for a place to 
change them.




Carl.



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Re: [WSG] standards or confusion?

2005-12-07 Thread Stephen Stagg
I'm no Lawyer but what are the legal ramifications of a user having the 
wrong year set on the client.  If the client's clock  were set to 1900 
then wouldn't the Copyright notice then be invalid?


That is one of the ramifications of not Using PHP or ASP.

Stephen

Bob Schwartz wrote:

Lachlan,

I'm going to take your much appreciated response one bit at a time.

By doing as you suggested, I lose the point of having used the JS in 
the first place.


(For the purposes of this discussion, let's assume that having the 
copyright notices reflect the current year is a desired thing).
With the JS all copyright notices are automaticaly updated when the 
year changes, with your method I would have to go back to each site 
and manualy change them.
This is sort of the contrary to one of the reasons for seperating 
structure from presentation in the why CSS is good  argument.


Bob



This one all alone on the page, with no linked JS in the head:

div id=copy

script type=text/javascript

var d=new Date();

yr=d.getFullYear();

if (yr!=2003)

document.write(copy; +yr);

/scriptnbsp;Cedar Tree Books

/div



p id=copy© 2005 Cedar Tree Books/p


No script (or entity reference) required.





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Re: [WSG] talking points for standards

2005-12-07 Thread Robert O'Neill


Yes, the key to this argument/discussion is whether your site offers a service to the general public. As suggested earlier we cant expect someone hosting his/her home page on Geocities to follow web standards, but anyone offering services online bears a moral responsibility to make those services available to as many people as possible, regardless of whether they are a minority of your target audience or not, and, at least in the UK, a legal responsibility.



 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 07/12/2005 15:10:48 
I was being specific and not defining the situation well, my bad. In the UK it is against the law to provide an inaccessible service. Therefore ONLY in the field of Accessibility, it is within the rights of any disabled person to demand that any UK site should be accessible. In practice, it means at least passing the WAG 1 test. I don't think that Managers and "The-people-who-control-the-money" do believe that not following standards will cost them and publicising web standards is still a big issue.StephenDuckworth, Nigel wrote: Stephen Stagg:   A better way to force the implementation of Accessibility standards would be to set up a group, or just urge disabled  people, to sue companies and web hosts who serve inaccessible  sites. Once people and customers realize that getting it  wrong will cost them, I'm sure that they will soon mend  their ways.  Wow. Isn't one of the arguments for web standards that "getting it wrong will cost you"? Obviously not enough in your estimation. I do believe that standards and accessibility are beneficial but that's a question that each individual, designer and business should decide for themselves. No one has the right to force them to conform [1]. In my opinion such "we know what's good for you" arrogance only harms the standards movement.  Regards,  -Nigel [1] http://nigelduckworth.com/publishing/?p=3 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list  getting help ** **The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list  getting help**

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Re: [WSG] page check please - mime type!

2005-12-07 Thread Stephen Stagg


Designer wrote:

Dear colleagues,

Forgive my labouring the point, but after our discussions I have done 
what Gunlaug did, i.e., made a page as xhtml, with the headers as below:


!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN
   http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd;
html lang=en
 xml:lang=en
 xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml;
head
titleThe Area/title
meta http-equiv=Content-Type
   content=application/xhtml+xml; charset=utf-8 /

I saved as xhtml and IE went daft. I saved as html and all seemed 
fine.  However, the site I'm working on has a fair bit of PHP in it, 
so I saved it as .php.  All seems fine, including IE.


You can see my test page at:

http://www.rhh.myzen.co.uk/rhh/thearea/area.php

So, my seemingly silly question is: Is this OK?  Does it fall apart 
for anybody? (mac esp?)


and, of course, is it OK to do this, and indeed, is this what I 
'should' be doing (Lachlan?)


Many thanks,



Apart from using copyrighted images without attributing them :).  It 
looks fine on Opera 8.5, Firefox 1.5. at 1280x1024.


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Re: [WSG] page check please - mime type!

2005-12-07 Thread Christian Montoya
On 12/7/05, Lachlan Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 If you choose to do content negotiation and serve application/xhtml+xml
 to browsers that support it and text/html to those that don't, be aware
 that it prevents incremental rendering in Mozilla.

So is the best thing to target xhtml browsers? Like, specifically
Opera, Safari, Konquerer, etc? How exactly would one do content
negotation with PHP?

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christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com
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RE: [WSG] page check please - mime type!

2005-12-07 Thread Mike Foskett

Mac report:

Worked fine in Safari v1 - bottom margin of about 1.5em, same as top
Worked okay in IE v5.2 - the bottom margin was extended 10em approx. 
Worked fine in Opera v8.51 - bottom margin approx 3em

Personally I'd ignore the margin difference but I thought I'd mention it in 
case it bothers you.
Mime type worked well. Will probably start using it myself.


Regards

Mike 2k:)2



 Mike Foskett
 Web Standards, Accessibility  Testing Consultant
 Communications
 British Educational Communications and Technology Agency (Becta)
 Milburn Hill Road, Science Park, Coventry CV4 7JJ
 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Tel:  02476 416994  Ext 3342 [Tuesday - Thursday]
 Fax: 02476 411410
 http://www.becta.org.uk






-Original Message-
From: Stephen Stagg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 07 December 2005 15:39
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] page check please - mime type!


Designer wrote:
 Dear colleagues,

 Forgive my labouring the point, but after our discussions I have done 
 what Gunlaug did, i.e., made a page as xhtml, with the headers as below:

 !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd;
 html lang=en
  xml:lang=en
  xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml;
 head
 titleThe Area/title
 meta http-equiv=Content-Type
content=application/xhtml+xml; charset=utf-8 /

 I saved as xhtml and IE went daft. I saved as html and all seemed 
 fine.  However, the site I'm working on has a fair bit of PHP in it, 
 so I saved it as .php.  All seems fine, including IE.

 You can see my test page at:

 http://www.rhh.myzen.co.uk/rhh/thearea/area.php

 So, my seemingly silly question is: Is this OK?  Does it fall apart 
 for anybody? (mac esp?)

 and, of course, is it OK to do this, and indeed, is this what I 
 'should' be doing (Lachlan?)

 Many thanks,

 
Apart from using copyrighted images without attributing them :).  It looks fine 
on Opera 8.5, Firefox 1.5. at 1280x1024.

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Re: [WSG] page check please - mime type!

2005-12-07 Thread Rimantas Liubertas
2005/12/7, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 So is the best thing to target xhtml browsers? Like, specifically
 Opera, Safari, Konquerer, etc? How exactly would one do content
 negotation with PHP?


You may try this: http://keystonewebsites.com/articles/mime_type.php

On the other hand: HTML4 works just fine without all that fuss...

Regards,
Rimantas
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Re: [WSG] page check please - mime type!

2005-12-07 Thread Christian Montoya
On 12/7/05, Mike Foskett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Mac report:

 Worked fine in Safari v1 - bottom margin of about 1.5em, same as top
 Worked okay in IE v5.2 - the bottom margin was extended 10em approx.
 Worked fine in Opera v8.51 - bottom margin approx 3em

 Personally I'd ignore the margin difference but I thought I'd mention it in 
 case it bothers you.
 Mime type worked well. Will probably start using it myself.

Would everyone please stop replying like this? Using:

meta http-equiv=Content-Type
   content=application/xhtml+xml; charset=utf-8 /

doesn't work! You are all viewing text/html. Pretty soon everyone on
this list will think they are serving xhtml.

I'll get it started right:

DID NOT work in every single browser. Version 0.1 to 1000. IE/Mac/Linux/Sun.

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Re: [WSG] page check please - mime type!

2005-12-07 Thread designer

Duh? Stephen?

Stephen Stagg wrote:

Apart from using copyrighted images without attributing them :). 


Best Regards,

Bob McClelland

Cornwall (UK)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk


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Re: [WSG] page check please - mime type!

2005-12-07 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun

Lachlan Hunt wrote:

You may as well just use valid HTML 4.01 Strict.  See XHTML is not
for Beginners, the MIME type issue is just one of the many reasons.

http://lachy.id.au/log/2005/12/xhtml-beginners

(yes, I'm aware of the irony that the article itself is XHTML as 
text/html, but that's the useless default wordpress template that I'm

 too lazy to fix up)


It is an irony that I am prohibited from getting comments through to
that article. However, it isn't important to me, since I can make up my
own mind about the subject anyway. Hope others are able to do that too.

The most important thing is to have knowledge to base ones choices on.
As long as such information is available - and I found some that might
be useful for beginners in that article, then it is up to each one to
make use of that information. Hands-on experience is a must in order to
get a full understanding though.

regards
Georg
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Re: [WSG] page check please - mime type!

2005-12-07 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun

Christian Montoya wrote:
doesn't work! You are all viewing text/html. Pretty soon everyone on 
this list will think they are serving xhtml.


Yes, and a large percentage of them will serve complete garbage :-)


I'll get it started right:

DID NOT work in every single browser. Version 0.1 to 1000. 
IE/Mac/Linux/Sun.


Sound better - and is probably 100% true.

Since my approach to xhtml seems to be ever so slightly misunderstood by
some, may I be allowed to link to an extended version of that approach.

It seems to have worked reasonably well for me for the last couple of
years. However, I wouldn't mind if someone proved me wrong on this, as
there's always something to be learned on the subject of 'MIME type
jumping'.

It can be viewed as HTML4.01-equivalent XHTML1.0:
http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_1_06_03.html
(will even work in IE/win - on a good day.)

...or as xhtml1.0 served and hopefully received as 'application/xhtml+xml':
http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_1_06_03.xhtml
(this is what that page started out as. Need xml compliant browser, or
one that can cheat so it appears to parse the code correctly.)

...or as *complete garbage*:
http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_1_06_03-notvalid.xhtml
(shouldn't work anywhere - despite the fact that it has only _one_
un-encoded ampersand.)

regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no
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Re: [WSG] standards or confusion?

2005-12-07 Thread Martin Heiden
Peter,

on Wednesday, December 7, 2005 at 12:31 wsg@webstandardsgroup.org wrote:

 Martin Heiden wrote:

 Do it on the serverside!!!

 Maybe I'm a cycle head, but it seems silly to use computation cycles 
 (although very little) to compute a year that changes only once per 
 year.  Use a server side include or hard code it in your footer template
 and remember to change it in the new year.  Guess this is my enterprise
 application architecture brain talking here.

You're right! I would do it with SSI or even more static (maybe by
using a Dreamweaver library element).

As others mentioned, the solution via JavaScript relies on a correct
set clock at the client's side and you can't control that. So best
practice is: don't trust in it!

If one uses JavaScript, one should always ask, what happens if
JavaScript is disabled? What happens if anything the script relies on,
is different from the expectation? The site should be usable even if
the scripts aren't executed.

So if it is possible to do something at the serverside or even before
the upload ;-). It should be done there!

And if you have a wonderful behaviour which only works on the
clientside, make the site work without it, or at least give the user a
message that without JavaScript he'll miss something marvelous...

An Example:

On our site we've got an online-consultation tool which only works
with JavaScript enabled. At the moment we are redoing the site and
after the relaunch this tool will be started via click on an image
button. On window.onload an unobstrusive JavaScript will exchange a
button which links to a contact form, with the one to start the
online-consultation tool. So a user without JavaScript can use the
contact form and the one with JavaScript enabled has the chance to
contact us by chat. ( Of course there is another link to the contact
form ;-) )

And that's the magic: You're site looks well and is usable even
without JavaScript, but the scripts are able to enhance the
functionality and the usability of web pages without making them
unusable if the scripts aren't executed.

regards

  Martin

 



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Re: [WSG] page check please - mime type!

2005-12-07 Thread Stephen Stagg
Sorry, just the map you used. My comment was meant light-heartedly. 
Your location map looks very like the one that can be got from 
http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/oswebsite/.  As these are crown 
copyright, I assume that you haven't got an agreement with them to use 
their data unattributed.  Even their website has the text:
Image reproduced with permission of Ordnance Survey and Ordnance Survey 
of Northern Ireland

below each image.


designer wrote:

Duh? Stephen?

Stephen Stagg wrote:

Apart from using copyrighted images without attributing them :). 


Best Regards,

Bob McClelland

Cornwall (UK)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk


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Re: [WSG] standards or confusion?

2005-12-07 Thread Peter J. Farrell




Martin Heiden wrote:

  Peter,

on Wednesday, December 7, 2005 at 12:31 wsg@webstandardsgroup.org wrote:
  
  
Maybe I'm a cycle head, but it seems silly to use computation cycles 
(although very little) to compute a year that changes only once per 
year.  Use a server side include or hard code it in your footer template
and remember to change it in the new year.  Guess this is my enterprise
application architecture brain talking here.

  
  
You're right! I would do it with SSI or even more static (maybe by
using a Dreamweaver library element).

As others mentioned, the solution via _javascript_ relies on a correct
set clock at the client's side and you can't control that. So best
practice is: don't trust in it!
  

IIRC, copyrights are implicit in the US.  The absence of a copyright
notice does not necessary mean that the work is not copyrighted.  A
copyright notice became optional in the US in 1989.  For more
information, see Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright 
Standard Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer and the information above should
not be construed as advice.

If only the general public knew about it...  Sorry for being OT.

I rarely rely on JS at all.  I have a few applications that I wrote
that explicitly depend on it, but that was a requirement in the
architecture process and it is clear to our customers that use it (it's
not a public facing website).

.Peter
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[WSG] re:talking points for standards

2005-12-07 Thread Drew Trusz
Bert wrote:When it comes to search engines, can anyone prove that lean codeis better? Has anyone done research on this claim? Google is fullof tagsoup sites that are highly ranked.I searched for web design in Google (pages from Australia
only). The top 3 (non sponsored) sites used tables for layout,none of them validated and only one had a doctype. They all usedsome CSS but only in addition to the tagsoup.So where are the benefits?


=As a digest reader I don't respond much since most things are settled or overworked by the time I read them. This may fit the later category but even so every now and then it's good to ask why bother?. Bert's been at it long enough to know the answer but sometime it's good to hear it.
For standards the answer to why bother isn't really found in page size, bandwidth savings or even ease of reconfiguration. The answer is in the purpose of the semantic web. Berners-Lee, Hendler and Lassila were clear about their goal in their seminal 
The Semantic Web. The target is a decentralized, data driven web. That's the goal of the w3c: a common
framework that allows data to be shared
and reused across application, enterprise, and community
boundaries.[1] To make that vision work, data has to be accessible and understandable. Web standards are focused on making that possible. Page design is a part of those standards but is not the extent of those standards.
The reason we follow standards should be to create pages which offer data that can be searched by User Agents in a reliable way. That is, the content is presented in accordance with a declared set of rules which clearly define what elements are and what their usage means. Furthermore, standards means presentation can be safely ignored since it in no way affects the content. With known elements and no concern about presentational inference, data becomes the focus. Some of the data can be even be extracted from the semantics of the page: proper use of headers, lists as dialogue, etc. A good start but only a start.
What we need to remember is that standards go way beyond this. What we need to remember is that a fully semantic web revolves around the rdf framework;employing uri's, taking advantage of the sparql and owl for data manipulation, making use of daml+oil for establishing data equivalence.--- bringing the flexibility of the web to fruition:
RDF is a flexible and extensible way to represent information
about World Wide Web resources. It is used to represent, among
other things, personal information, social networks, metadata
about digital artifacts, as well as
provide a means of integration over disparate sources of
information. A standardized query language for RDF data with
multiple implementations offers developers and end users a way
to write and to consume the results of queries across this wide
range of information. Used with a common protocol, applications can access 
and combine information from across the Web. [2]This is a vision that moves well beyond the electronic. Uri's are conceived of as representing not just links but also places and people. The rdf framework of grahps provides a way to establish the links in a chain by which a person acquires and evaluates knowledge and resources in a,hopefully, evolving process.
The problem is that the data upon which such a web depends is in incompatible and likely mutually incomprehensible formats. Making that data interchangeable is what standards do. Various forms of xml derived technologies as OWL[3] and daml+oil[4] help to establish an equivalence of data; making it possible for machines and people to trust that the data they are receiving is understood as it was meant to be. So that zip is understood as intended by the original author be that meaning as zip code, nothing, or zipper type. The translation is accurate.
In the end, a user, including all of us, will shape their own experience with the web. Trust, the feeling that the data is accurate, will come with a combination of electronic signature verification and the slower process of building a set of uri's individuals find reliable. It's not an absolute standard of trust, it's a personal and relative standard as varied as the web. 
Will this matter to large commercial sites? Probably not; nor necessarily should it. Their version of the web is proscribed by their concern with brand name recognition and frankly sales. People maintaining such sites won't worry about truples and how daml classes are written. A web authoring tool which is wysiwyg, with nested tables and tag soup, will work fine for them unless and until it becomes a compelling business reason to do pages in another form. 
You can bet that if standards compliant pages lead to new and different search methodologies, commercial sites will follow along. Business didn't invent the web, it just changed it. Other groups can do the same thing. 
You can have the web 

[WSG] IE 5 MAC - Is it a clear issue?

2005-12-07 Thread Ben Logan








Hi folks



I have a site design which I am working on coding up and at
the moment it appears to be IE5.2.3 on OSX that is causing me problems. Safari
seems okay so far!



I have a right hand login box box which has a top and a
middle section. The div I am looking at is :



#loginboxmiddle



I have a conditional comment for any IE stuff and Firefox is
displaying fine from the code in the main stylesheet styles.css



I have all Mac IE5 stuff in a separate stylesheet.



For some reason the box to the right of the last float is
not sitting like the other browsers?

I have tried clear:both and also clear right on this div but
no luck? I have also tried reducing the margin by a few hundred pixels but it
does not seem to budge.



Can anyone advise please?



Page:



http://www.spotlessdesign.com/clients/spotlightstudios/code/



Username: spotlight

Pass: spotclips



CSS:

http://www.spotlessdesign.com/clients/spotlightstudios/code/includes/styles/ie51.css
(MAC CSS)

http://www.spotlessdesign.com/clients/spotlightstudios/code/includes/styles/styles.css
(Main CSS)

http://www.spotlessdesign.com/clients/spotlightstudios/code/includes/styles/iespecific.css
(Used for Conditional Comments)



Thanks for you help!



Ben Logan
Director

Spotless Design

Tel: +44 (0) 207 168 7526
Mob: +44 (0) 7971 002292

MSN
ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Skype:
djbenlogan
AOL IM: DJBenLogan










[WSG] absolute positioning?

2005-12-07 Thread Greg Morphis
Hey, I'm trying to build a daily schedule view which will have
schedules from 6am - 10pm.
I'm not sure if this is the correct approach so I'm asking for help...

I was thinking of using a table with 3 columns, 1 column for the name,
1 column for job title and 1 column for their daily schedule. I was
thinking of using spans for the various tasks that the users will have
throughout their day.
table width=790px; border=1
tr
   td width=75pxPat Smoot/td
   td width=75pxCSR/td
   td width=640pxspan
style=left:0px;width:140px;background-color:blue;text-align:center;Work/span/td

/tr
/table
the border is just for viewing..
I believe what I need to use is absolutle positioning however when I
add that to the inline CSS statement, the width works but the span is
moved out of the cell table element.
I'm no CSS wiz, I'm just a beginner and hoping one of you can suggest
some sites to look at, tutorials or code snippets.

I also tried all CSS and didnt get too far either..
div id=schedule
div id=schedule_row style=position:absolute;width:790px;
span id=user
style=position:absolute;left:0px;width:75px;text-align:center;Pat
Smoot/span
span id=job
style=position:absolute;left:75px;width:75px;text-align:center;CSR/span
span class=task
style=position:relative;width:120px;left:120px;text-align:center;background-color:blue;Work/span
/div
/div  


I'm trying to make it look something like this...
http://home.alltel.net/omen/schedule_example.jpg



Thanks!
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Re: [WSG] absolute positioning?

2005-12-07 Thread Ben Wong
Hi Greg,
Although it's an interesting thing you're trying to do. I think it's a
bit hacky. While it's seem table-like it's actually a graph and I'd
probably consider a few other options.

1. do the third column with images
2. do the entire graph as one big image
or
3. use SVG

If you still think using the pure table is the go, then you might find
the following link helpful...

http://www.find-a-psychiatrist.com/

whoops, I meant this one :P...

http://www.stopdesign.com/articles/absolute/index.html

HTH

Ben

On 12/8/05, Greg Morphis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hey, I'm trying to build a daily schedule view which will have
 schedules from 6am - 10pm.
 I'm not sure if this is the correct approach so I'm asking for help...

 I was thinking of using a table with 3 columns, 1 column for the name,
 1 column for job title and 1 column for their daily schedule. I was
 thinking of using spans for the various tasks that the users will have
 throughout their day.
 table width=790px; border=1
 tr
td width=75pxPat Smoot/td
td width=75pxCSR/td
td width=640pxspan
 style=left:0px;width:140px;background-color:blue;text-align:center;Work/span/td

 /tr
 /table
 the border is just for viewing..
 I believe what I need to use is absolutle positioning however when I
 add that to the inline CSS statement, the width works but the span is
 moved out of the cell table element.
 I'm no CSS wiz, I'm just a beginner and hoping one of you can suggest
 some sites to look at, tutorials or code snippets.

 I also tried all CSS and didnt get too far either..
 div id=schedule
 div id=schedule_row style=position:absolute;width:790px;
 span id=user
 style=position:absolute;left:0px;width:75px;text-align:center;Pat
 Smoot/span
 span id=job
 style=position:absolute;left:75px;width:75px;text-align:center;CSR/span
 span class=task
 style=position:relative;width:120px;left:120px;text-align:center;background-color:blue;Work/span
 /div
 /div


 I'm trying to make it look something like this...
 http://home.alltel.net/omen/schedule_example.jpg



 Thanks!
 --
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Re: [WSG] page check please - mime type!

2005-12-07 Thread Lachlan Hunt

Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:

Lachlan Hunt wrote:

http://lachy.id.au/log/2005/12/xhtml-beginners


I am prohibited from getting comments through to that article.


That's weird, if you contact me off list and let me know what error you 
received I might be able to do something about it.  If you send me your 
comment, I can add it for you.


However, it isn't important to me, since I can make up my 
own mind about the subject anyway. Hope others are able to do that too.


As I wrote in the article, those who are competent enough to make an 
informed decision may do so.  Beginners who've never even built a web 
page before can hardly be considered as knowledgeable on the subject and 
wouldn't be able to make a fully informed decision.


--
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http://lachy.id.au/

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[WSG] problems!!!

2005-12-07 Thread Gerardo Cháirez
Hi guys, I hate to bother all you guys with this, but I Cant Fix it!!!

On this address: http://www.addictivemedia.com.mx/limpeq/

I need to display the quienes somos and Nuestros clientes divs right below
the photo and bienvenidos section. I already clear them both, clear them right,
left, and it doesnt do it...

Also if you have any coments about the way it is constructed the site or the css
please let me know.

Thanx a lot for your help and support in this wheeping moment.


Gerardo Cháirez


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Re: [WSG] problems!!!

2005-12-07 Thread Bert Doorn

G'day


On this address: http://www.addictivemedia.com.mx/limpeq/
I need to display the quienes somos and Nuestros clientes divs right below
the photo and bienvenidos section. I already clear them both, clear them right,
left, and it doesnt do it...


I've done a quick test in Firefox (with the web dev toolbar). 
Try removing clearboth and don't put a 100% width on twocols.
AS I see it, by clearing twocols and giving it a 100% width 
(plus margins), you are forcing it below the floating elements.


I found it odd that something with id=leftcontent would be 
floating right.  Try to not use presentational id and class names.


Regards
--
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http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites

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[WSG] CSS - Fixing PNG Transparency Issues in IE?

2005-12-07 Thread Artemis
I was reading Matt's WordPress blog and noticed at the bottom of the 
page he has an up arrow so you can click to go up, so I tried peeking at 
his css with the Web Developer Toolbar so I could see how he did it. 
But, something else caught my attention. I noticed in his other.css file 
that he has this line of code


/* --- Fix PNG Transparentcy issue in IE --- */
img { behavior: url(/wp-content/themes/lucid/css/other/pngbehavior.htc); }

His site is here http://mattread.com/

If anyone knows anything about this htc file, if it would be good to 
use, how exactly it works, and where I might find a bit more information 
about it I would be ever so appreciative :)


Many thanks,
Artemis
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Re: [WSG] CSS - Fixing PNG Transparency Issues in IE?

2005-12-07 Thread Matthew Cruickshank

Artemis wrote:
If anyone knows anything about this htc file, if it would be good to 
use, how exactly it works, and where I might find a bit more 
information about it I would be ever so appreciative :)


http://webfx.eae.net/dhtml/pngbehavior/pngbehavior.html



.Matthew Cruickshank
http://holloway.co.nz/
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[WSG] Commerce sites - advice and examples

2005-12-07 Thread Michelle Roberts
Hi all

I have someone who is looking for a commerce site (in Australia) to sell
their products from.  They obviously would like a simple shopping cart, and
do not have too many products.  It's not something I've learnt how to do,
and they are looking for someone closer to them and wanted some advice on
what to look for when choosing someone.

I've told them the basics of web design, but is there something they should
be looking for in regard to a secure shopping site?  They currently use
Mal's Cart, and have access to osCommerce through the Cpanel of their
website.  What are the pitfalls, or what should they insist upon from their
web developer? Oh, and does anyone have any idea of what would be a
reasonable fee for them to compare quotes to?

Thanks!

Michelle

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[WSG] Valid alternative to textarea WRAP

2005-12-07 Thread Sarah Peeke (XERT)
Hi all

Just wondering if there is an altenative to textarea wrap=soft (for
e.g.) that validates.

I have come across the following:

textarea { overflow: auto; }

but there appear to be some problems with it.

Any other suggestions appreciated.

Thanks
Sarah
-- 
XERT Communications
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
office: +61 2 4782 3104
mobile: 0438 017 416

http://www.xert.com.au/
web development : digital imaging : dvd production
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Re: [WSG] Valid alternative to textarea WRAP

2005-12-07 Thread Lachlan Hunt

Sarah Peeke (XERT) wrote:

Just wondering if there is an altenative to textarea wrap=soft (for
e.g.) that validates.


Just wondering why you need it.  In which non-obsolete browser does the 
value soft have any effect upon rendering or submission?


--
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http://lachy.id.au/

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Re: [WSG] Valid alternative to textarea WRAP

2005-12-07 Thread Sarah Peeke (XERT)
I'm modifying some of the Zen Cart code to ensure validation.

The FF Tidy plugin gives a warning on the wrap attribute, and I'm hoping
to do a find and replace to fix it.


 Sarah Peeke (XERT) wrote:
  Just wondering if there is an altenative to textarea wrap=soft
(for
  e.g.) that validates.
 
 Just wondering why you need it.  In which non-obsolete browser does
the 
 value soft have any effect upon rendering or submission?
 
-- 
XERT Communications
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
office: +61 2 4782 3104
mobile: 0438 017 416

http://www.xert.com.au/
web development : digital imaging : dvd production
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Re: [WSG] Valid alternative to textarea WRAP

2005-12-07 Thread Lachlan Hunt

Sarah Peeke (XERT) wrote:

Lachlan Hunt wrote:

Sarah Peeke (XERT) wrote:
Just wondering if there is an altenative to textarea wrap=soft (for 
e.g.) that validates.


Just wondering why you need it.  In which non-obsolete browser does the 
value soft have any effect upon rendering or submission?


I'm modifying some of the Zen Cart code to ensure validation.


That doesn't answer the question and explain *why* you need it.

The FF Tidy plugin gives a warning on the wrap attribute, and I'm hoping 
to do a find and replace to fix it.


Soft is the default value, so it's completely unnecessary.  Remove it.

--
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http://lachy.id.au/

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Re: [WSG] Valid alternative to textarea WRAP

2005-12-07 Thread Bert Doorn

G'day


The FF Tidy plugin gives a warning on the wrap attribute, and I'm hoping
to do a find and replace to fix it.


Does that (proprietary) attribute actually do anything in any 
browser?  The only values I have seen mentioned for it are off, 
Virtual and physical - I've not seen soft mentioned before.


If it doesn't do anything (other than invalidate the pages), I'd 
just remove it.


Regards
--
Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites

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RE: [WSG] New logo scheme was talking points for standards

2005-12-07 Thread Alan Trick
I was just thinking about that and I don't think google.com (or for that
matter - anything that company creates) would manage to get more than 1
star.

On Wed, 2005-12-07 at 12:00 +1100, Peter Williams wrote:
  From: Herrod, Lisa
  
  Who really pays attention to the badges?
  
  Are the badges useful? really? surely an accessibility page 
  on the site is more informative and helpful/useful/clear
  to those who are interested.
  
  We work this way because it's best practice and the right 
  thing to do; it's faster and more efficient...
 
 I should point out that I don't use the W3C buttons on any
 sites, I try always to make sites comply with standards and
 to be functionally efficient. I wouldn't use any new rating
 or badge system either unless it was mandated.
 
 I think it would be amusing to see all the pretty but broken
 sites with no stars or 1 star though.
 

__
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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Re: [WSG] New logo scheme was talking points for standards

2005-12-07 Thread Christian Montoya
On 12/7/05, Alan Trick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I was just thinking about that and I don't think google.com (or for that
 matter - anything that company creates) would manage to get more than 1
 star.

You just now realized that Google doesn't care at all about standards
compliance??? I think it's a shame.

Have you ever seen the output of MSN Search? An improvement, at least.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com
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RE: [WSG] New logo scheme was talking points for standards

2005-12-07 Thread Paul Bennett
Trolling? 
:)

Tip:(unrelated to this dead thread)

I found this good reference: a list of commonly confused HTML special characters
http://www.cs.sfu.ca/~ggbaker/reference/characters/#single


Paul

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alan Trick
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 3:36 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] New logo scheme was talking points for standards

I was just thinking about that and I don't think google.com (or for that
matter - anything that company creates) would manage to get more than 1
star.

On Wed, 2005-12-07 at 12:00 +1100, Peter Williams wrote:
  From: Herrod, Lisa
  
  Who really pays attention to the badges?
  
  Are the badges useful? really? surely an accessibility page 
  on the site is more informative and helpful/useful/clear
  to those who are interested.
  
  We work this way because it's best practice and the right 
  thing to do; it's faster and more efficient...
 
 I should point out that I don't use the W3C buttons on any
 sites, I try always to make sites comply with standards and
 to be functionally efficient. I wouldn't use any new rating
 or badge system either unless it was mandated.
 
 I think it would be amusing to see all the pretty but broken
 sites with no stars or 1 star though.
 

__
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

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Re: [WSG] Valid alternative to textarea WRAP

2005-12-07 Thread Bert Doorn

G'day

Sarah Peeke (XERT) wrote:

Hi Bert
So remove *wrap=soft* entirely?


Yep - I agree with Lachlan (for a change :-)

Soft is the default value, so it's completely unnecessary. 
Remove it. 


Regards
--
Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites

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Re: [WSG] Lengthy form buttons

2005-12-07 Thread Nick Cowie
One way around this is to use button type=submit instead of input type=submitThe button tag offers far more opportunity to style than input, and allows you to include an image inside a button tag.
The buttons look the same in all modern browsers regadless of OS.Did a little experimenting here: http://nickcowie.com/2005/stylish-accessible-buttons/
-- Nick Cowiehttp://nickcowie.com


RE: [WSG] Lengthy form buttons

2005-12-07 Thread Paul Noone
I find it hard to believe but it looks like it's using an image file to draw
the button?!?! 

I'v enever noticed this before. Perhaps I've never had buttons that long.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Tim Burgan
Sent: Thursday, 8 December 2005 11:46 AM
To: undisclosed-recipients:
Subject: [WSG] Lengthy form buttons

Does anyone have a clue as to why this happens:


IE6.0 only on XP makes form buttons display really pixelated what the
button's width gets to a certain size.

It doesn't seem to occur is any Mac browsers, and no other Win browsers or
versions

More specifically, when either the label is = 19 characters, or the width
is = 192 pixels.

Form buttons without width defined:
http://www.timburgan.com/submit-button.htm

Form buttons with width defined:
http://www.timburgan.com/submit-button-width.htm

Does anyone have any ideas as to how to get around this?


Tim
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Re: [WSG] Lengthy form buttons

2005-12-07 Thread Tim Burgan

Hi Nick,

Does button type=submit still submit a form by default, or does it 
require javascript to do so?


If it doesn't require javascript.. why doesn't everyone use button 
type=submit?


Tim



Nick Cowie wrote:

One way around this is to use button type=submit instead of input 
type=submit


The button tag offers far more opportunity to style than input, and 
allows you to include an image inside a button tag.


The buttons look the same  in all modern browsers regadless of OS.

Did a little experimenting here: 
http://nickcowie.com/2005/stylish-accessible-buttons/ 
http://nickcowie.com/2005/stylish-accessible-buttons/





--
Nick Cowie
http://nickcowie.com 



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[WSG] IE adding image margin

2005-12-07 Thread Julia Birks
Hi everyone, I'm having problems with IE adding a margin to images.  As is always the case, it displays fine in Firefox / Safari etc.  The footer at the bottom should have rounded corners which have been created by putting the images in the cell left + right, and having the center part as a repeating background image.  However, IE is adding a few pixels margin on the outer edges of the images, so you can see the repeating background on the outer edges of the corner pieces.  You can view the problem at:  http://aica.nichestudio.netCSS is:.footerbar    { background-image: url(../images/footer_2.gif); background-repeat: repeat-x; background-position: 0 bottom; padding: 0 }HTML is:tr height="18"td class="footerbar" colspan="3" align="center" valign="top" height="18" width="776"img src="" alt="" height="18" width="18" align="right"/img src="" alt="" height="18" width="18" align="left"/?php mosLoadModules( 'bottommenu' ); ?/td/trThis is an old site i did when my coding skills were super-inferior, and I'm hoping to avoid having to fix the whole thing with divs.  Does anyone know a common fix for this problem?  Thanks for your help,Julia Birks.  

Re: [WSG] IE adding image margin

2005-12-07 Thread Ric Jude Raftis

G'day Julia,

Firefox is actually not displaying properly either.  Your text is quite 
small on the page, so if you hit Control and the plus key a few times to 
enlarge it you'll see what happens to your footer area.


I also note you have two doctypes in your code.  One for xhtml and one 
for html.  Lose the latter.  At the top of your page, you also have the 
xml resolution of


?xml version=1.0 encoding=iso-8859-1?

It is my understanding that this throws IE into quirks mode and 
shouldn't be used.


Regards,


Ric


Julia Birks wrote:

Hi everyone, 

I'm having problems with IE adding a margin to images.  As is always 
the case, it displays fine in Firefox / Safari etc.  The footer at the 
bottom should have rounded corners which have been created by putting 
the images in the cell left + right, and having the center part as a 
repeating background image.  



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Re: [WSG] IE adding image margin

2005-12-07 Thread Alexander Todorenko
Best would be to rewrite the code at least in the footer, too many
nested tables.
For a quick fix - add hspace=0 to the corner images.

Alex

On 12/8/05, Julia Birks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi everyone,

 I'm having problems with IE adding a margin to images.  As is always the
 case, it displays fine in Firefox / Safari etc.  The footer at the bottom
 should have rounded corners which have been created by putting the images in
 the cell left + right, and having the center part as a repeating background
 image.

 However, IE is adding a few pixels margin on the outer edges of the images,
 so you can see the repeating background on the outer edges of the corner
 pieces.

 You can view the problem at:  http://aica.nichestudio.net
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RE: [WSG] problems!!!

2005-12-07 Thread gchairez
Thanx for your response Bert,
My problem is this: If I display the page on 800*600 it would look
correct, the thing is when I use a higher resolution as 1024*786 or
bigger... the quienes somos text would move right below the bienvenidos
section, I need that the twocols items display on the same line, as it
look a bit funny the way it is at the moment... I have made the
changes... and are almost in position, but not quite right... and im
sure im gonna have the same problem with the text after them.

http://www.addictivemedia.com.mx/limpeq/
also, you can see the final design at
http://www.addictivemedia.com.mx/limpeq/finalLimpeq.jpg

Thanx for al your help...

Regards,

Gerardo

-Mensaje original-
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
En nombre de Bert Doorn
Enviado el: Miércoles, 07 de Diciembre de 2005 04:05 p.m.
Para: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Asunto: Re: [WSG] problems!!!

G'day

 On this address: http://www.addictivemedia.com.mx/limpeq/
 I need to display the quienes somos and Nuestros clientes divs
right below
 the photo and bienvenidos section. I already clear them both, clear
them right,
 left, and it doesnt do it...

I've done a quick test in Firefox (with the web dev toolbar).
Try removing clearboth and don't put a 100% width on twocols.
AS I see it, by clearing twocols and giving it a 100% width
(plus margins), you are forcing it below the floating elements.

I found it odd that something with id=leftcontent would be
floating right.  Try to not use presentational id and class names.

Regards
--
Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites

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Re: [WSG] Lengthy form buttons

2005-12-07 Thread Nick Cowie
Tim askedDoes button type=submit still submit a form by default, or does it
require _javascript_ to do so?button type=submit = input type=submit but don't take my word for it, do what I did when I found out about the button element, go visit the W3c 
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/interact/forms.html#h-17.5
If it doesn't require _javascript_.. why doesn't everyone use buttontype=submit?Because  everybody has been taught / learnt to use the input element.The button element is the new kid on the block it was only introduced in 1997 with HTML 
4.0 http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-html40-970708/interact/forms.html#edef-BUTTON input has be around a lot longer.
-- Nick Cowiehttp://nickcowie.com


Re: [WSG] Lengthy form buttons

2005-12-07 Thread Tim Burgan

Thanks Nick,

   Nick Cowie wrote:


The button element is the new kid on the block it was only
introduced in 1997 with HTML 4.0
http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-html40-970708/interact/forms.html#edef-BUTTON 
input has be around a lot longer.

http://nickcowie.com


No kidding!
RIP: input type=submit /
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Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

2005-12-07 Thread Joshua Street
Single sane reason: Well now, I suppose they're not trying to get
themselves indexed by a search engine, are they? ;-)

josh

--
Joshua Street

http://www.joahua.com/
+61 (0) 425 808 469


On 12/8/05, Lea de Groot [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On 08/12/2005, at 12:54 PM, Paul Bennett wrote:
  Trolling?

 Well, it isn't the first thing that occurred to me!
 I've often wondered why it is that Google doesn't validate.
 I mean its not as if they were just a couple of errors, and we could
 all just shake it off - they are no where near validating.
 Lets just look at the home page (although I'm not aware of any of
 their other products that are an improvement).
 51 errors - *51*! On around the same number of lines of markup!
 For a company with the motto of 'do no evil', its embarrassing no
 less, and they should pick up their act.

 Can anyone think of a single sane reason why their pages are nowhere
 near compliant?

 Lea
 ~ why, yes, I do like changing the subject line ;)
 --
 Lea de Groot
 Elysian Systems
 Brisbane Australia
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Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

2005-12-07 Thread Mark Harris

Lea de Groot wrote:

On 08/12/2005, at 12:54 PM, Paul Bennett wrote:


Trolling?



Well, it isn't the first thing that occurred to me!
I've often wondered why it is that Google doesn't validate.
I mean its not as if they were just a couple of errors, and we could  
all just shake it off - they are no where near validating.
Lets just look at the home page (although I'm not aware of any of  their 
other products that are an improvement).

51 errors - *51*! On around the same number of lines of markup!
For a company with the motto of 'do no evil', its embarrassing no  less, 
and they should pick up their act.


Can anyone think of a single sane reason why their pages are nowhere  
near compliant?


Lea
~ why, yes, I do like changing the subject line ;)


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[WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

2005-12-07 Thread Lea de Groot

On 08/12/2005, at 12:54 PM, Paul Bennett wrote:

Trolling?


Well, it isn't the first thing that occurred to me!
I've often wondered why it is that Google doesn't validate.
I mean its not as if they were just a couple of errors, and we could  
all just shake it off - they are no where near validating.
Lets just look at the home page (although I'm not aware of any of  
their other products that are an improvement).

51 errors - *51*! On around the same number of lines of markup!
For a company with the motto of 'do no evil', its embarrassing no  
less, and they should pick up their act.


Can anyone think of a single sane reason why their pages are nowhere  
near compliant?


Lea
~ why, yes, I do like changing the subject line ;)
--
Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems
Brisbane Australia
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Re: [WSG] Need help with form

2005-12-07 Thread Ben Wong
Dunno, doesn't it give you any feedback?
By the way, the page isn't valid according to w3c validator either.

http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1uri=http%3A//mouseriders.dk/check.php

On 12/8/05, Kim Kruse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi,

 I thought I've done everything correct with my forms... but no.

 So now I'm trying to figure out why Cynthia/WEBXACT fails my form pages.
 I just don't understand what it is I'm supposed to do with these forms.
 So if someone would tell me what it is I need to do to make cynthia
 happy and me understand I'll be happy too. http://mouseriders.dk/check.php

 Thanks
 Kim
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e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
w: http://blog.onehero.net
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[WSG] Need help with form

2005-12-07 Thread Kim Kruse

Hi,

I thought I've done everything correct with my forms... but no.

So now I'm trying to figure out why Cynthia/WEBXACT fails my form pages. 
I just don't understand what it is I'm supposed to do with these forms. 
So if someone would tell me what it is I need to do to make cynthia 
happy and me understand I'll be happy too. http://mouseriders.dk/check.php


Thanks
Kim
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Re: [WSG] Need help with form

2005-12-07 Thread Joshua Street
label for=NavnFor og efternavnspan class=required*/spanbr

input name=navn value= type=text
/label

You're using the name attribute, which isn't valid, and some of your
for values have the first letter capitalised, whilst the respective
input name does not. The fact you've omitted an id on some elements
probably doesn't help, either.

Validating the page might go some way to resolving the problems.

Regards,
Josh

On 12/8/05, Kim Kruse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi,

 I thought I've done everything correct with my forms... but no.

 So now I'm trying to figure out why Cynthia/WEBXACT fails my form pages.
 I just don't understand what it is I'm supposed to do with these forms.
 So if someone would tell me what it is I need to do to make cynthia
 happy and me understand I'll be happy too. http://mouseriders.dk/check.php

 Thanks
 Kim
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http://www.joahua.com/
+61 (0) 425 808 469
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Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

2005-12-07 Thread Christian Montoya
On 12/8/05, Joshua Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Single sane reason: Well now, I suppose they're not trying to get
 themselves indexed by a search engine, are they? ;-)

 josh

Good answer. Maybe also:

- they aren't making a browser
- they use lots of javascript
- they don't care

Maybe the WASP should start talking to them?

--
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Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com
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RE: [WSG] problems!!!

2005-12-07 Thread gchairez
Well, you fixed another problem that I had... :-)
But I still having the problem...
The thing is this...
The Bienvenidos text and the photo are in one line,
The next line are quienes somos and nuestros clients (This two should be
displayed in the same line, without being one higher than the other)
The next line are nuestros servicios and the photo, these two again
shouldn’t be displayed on different topor bottom levels...
And noticias should be after the photo and not wrap around...

I updated the link
http://www.addictivemedia.com.mx/limpeq/

-Mensaje original-
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
En nombre de Bert Doorn
Enviado el: Miércoles, 07 de Diciembre de 2005 10:46 p.m.
Para: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Asunto: Re: [WSG] problems!!!

G'day again

 Thanx for your response Bert,
 My problem is this: If I display the page on 800*600 it would look
 correct, the thing is when I use a higher resolution as 1024*786 or
 bigger... the quienes somos text would move right below the
bienvenidos
 section, I need that the twocols items display on the same line,

Looking at it with resolution of 1152*864.  I see what you mean,
if I enlarge the text.

Put a margin-left on #columnMain then, equal to the amount of
space you want to reserve.  Something like:

#columnMain { margin:0 0 0 120px; }

Or am I looking at the wrong problem?

Regards
--
Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites

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Re: [WSG] Need help with form *SOLVED*

2005-12-07 Thread Kim Kruse
Thanks you very much for helping me out. I've corrected the errors and 
everything is fine now.


Kim

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Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

2005-12-07 Thread Bert Doorn

G'day


Well, it isn't the first thing that occurred to me!
I've often wondered why it is that Google doesn't validate.


I never looked at it closely, but you're right - it's tagsoup, 
tables for layout and deprecated elements and attributes galore 
(font, center anyone?). No DTD either.


Perhaps, like *many* businesses, they look at it and say it 
works in all browsers, so what's all the fuss about?  They don't 
*see* the need...


Perhaps it's also a case of (some) programmers are not html 
coders.  It seems many people who write server side scripts only 
have a vocabulary of about 10-12 HTML elements (html, title, 
meta, body, table, tr, td, center, font, img and maybe a couple 
more).


Yes, I know there are exceptions...   Just thinking Google may 
fall into this category as it's obviously script driven.


Regards
--
Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites

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