Re: [WSG] 3 column layout - centre column forced below side columns in IE at low resolution

2006-02-09 Thread Nick Cowie
I would of suggested wrapping a div with float: left around #sidebar_a and #content so when worse came to worse you forced #sidebar_b below the main content.However, that would require a major change in your source code. And seeing your are already using conditional comments to serve a .htc behaviour to ie only. Why not add another for min-width options:
grab ie7 behaviours from Dean Edwards http://dean.edwards.name/IE7/ try this one it is much smaller but untested 
http://archivist.incutio.com/viewlist/css-discuss/42236or just add the following into you conditional comment:style type=text/css

.minWidth{

width:_expression_(document.body.clientWidth  800 ? 800px: auto );

}

/style
-- Nick Cowiehttp://nickcowie.com


Re: [WSG] HTML, XML what's the difference.

2006-02-09 Thread Stephen Stagg
Ok, one last try.  My thoughts have little to do with semantics.   
Semantics are based on standards and languages, and therefore if HTML  
were dropped, something would HAVE to be introduced to replace it.


However, like the hCard format, trying to break the HTML structure to  
add semantics to an address on a website seems silly, why not define  
a new, standard, Address DTD.  This way any professional will be able  
to look up the standard for any data-type he wants.  If a data-type  
has not been defined publicly, then his being forced to use a bunch  
of meaningless tags seems silly.


Trying to get amateurs to create semantic based sites is largely  
futile, whatever standards you use, in whatever industry.  In these  
situations, to a UA, there is no difference between:


div class=headingPage title/div
div class=asasome text/div
div class=paraspan class=firstwordThe/spanquick brown/div

and

headingPage title/heading
asasome text/ada
parafirstwordThe/firstwordquick brown/para

Except that it is easier for humans to understand.  This IS important  
because the easier markup is to understand, the easier it is to  
maintain and the more likely it is to be standards-compliant.


HTML is primarily a text document markup language, a tiny subset of  
the total information types available on the internet, with extra  
bits added on.  Why does all information have to be presented in this  
format?  Create a new Document DTD, a webpage DTD with things like  
Title and meta-tag included and then people who don't adhere to these  
new standards will find that their sites, by default, don't get  
listed in search engines. Or that browser functionality (like linking  
addresses to a user's address book) don't work.  This will force them  
to be standards compliant.


Stephen 
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[WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Marilyn Langfeld
I just read about this on another list. I thought others might be  
interested. Target is a large, stylish but also discount, retailer in  
the US. This should be a big case for web accessibility.

__

Blind Cal student sues Target. Suit charges retailer's Web site  
cannot be used by the sightless.
... What I hope is that Target and other online merchants will  
realize how important it is to reach 1.3 million people in this  
nation and the growing baby-boomer population who will also be losing  
vision, said plaintiff Bruce Sexton Jr., 24, a blind third-year  
student at UC Berkeley.


Sexton, who is president of the California Association of Blind  
Students, said making Target's Web site accessible to the blind would  
also make it more navigable by those without vision problems



http://tinyurl.com/7ze7p
__


Best regards,

Marilyn Langfeld
Langfeldesigns
http://www.langfeldesigns.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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RE: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Ted Drake
This has the potential for making some positive improvements in the
commercial web sphere.  Target is not blind to good design. Their new
prescription bottles have been hailed as one of the best designs of the last
decade (I think they were designed by a graduate student before Target
purchased them. But at least they recognized the value)

Target has also commissioned top fashion and architecture designers to
develop affordable products (Michael Graves, Phiippe Stark, ...)

Target may actually replace their site with an insightful, accessible
solution that is a model for other companies.

Unfortunately, it takes a law suit to get corporations to make changes these
days.

Ted
www.tdrake.net
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Marilyn Langfeld
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 8:43 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

I just read about this on another list. I thought others might be  
interested. Target is a large, stylish but also discount, retailer in  
the US. This should be a big case for web accessibility.
__

Blind Cal student sues Target. Suit charges retailer's Web site  
cannot be used by the sightless.
... What I hope is that Target and other online merchants will  
realize how important it is to reach 1.3 million people in this  
nation and the growing baby-boomer population who will also be losing  
vision, said plaintiff Bruce Sexton Jr., 24, a blind third-year  
student at UC Berkeley.

Sexton, who is president of the California Association of Blind  
Students, said making Target's Web site accessible to the blind would  
also make it more navigable by those without vision problems


http://tinyurl.com/7ze7p
__


Best regards,

Marilyn Langfeld
Langfeldesigns
http://www.langfeldesigns.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Al Sparber

From: Ted Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED]



This has the potential for making some positive improvements in the
commercial web sphere.  Target is not blind to good design. Their 
new
prescription bottles have been hailed as one of the best designs of 
the last
decade (I think they were designed by a graduate student before 
Target

purchased them. But at least they recognized the value)

Target has also commissioned top fashion and architecture designers 
to

develop affordable products (Michael Graves, Phiippe Stark, ...)

Target may actually replace their site with an insightful, 
accessible

solution that is a model for other companies.

Unfortunately, it takes a law suit to get corporations to make 
changes these

days.


I'm dumbfounded if, in fact, Target was advised of the absence of Alt 
text and did nothing. I want to believe there must be more to the 
story :-) That said, I think it does emphasize the responsibility that 
web designers have to make their sites accessible - for no other 
reason, then it's the good and moral thing to do. And with that said, 
I believe the authors and marketers of JAWS should be ripped a new 
orifice for selling a seriously flawed application that itself does 
not support long-standing standards.


I feel better now.

--
Al Sparber
PVII
http://www.projectseven.com

Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling 
mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that 
repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday.





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Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Al Sparber

From: Joseph R. B. Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]

The only thing I don't understand is how on earth does a blind 
person pick out items that rely on a photograph (clothes etc)...


If you go to Target's home page, you will find, in the left column 
what appear to be headlines describing sale and special items. They 
are images - and there is no Alt text. Blind people do shop :-).


--
Al Sparber
PVII
http://www.projectseven.com

Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling 
mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that 
repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday.





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Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Leslie Riggs


The only thing I don't understand is how on earth does a blind person 
pick out items that rely on a photograph (clothes etc)...



If you go to Target's home page, you will find, in the left column 
what appear to be headlines describing sale and special items. They 
are images - and there is no Alt text. Blind people do shop :-).


There are varying degrees of blindness, too, so someone looking at one 
of those images may go, Oh, wait, is that a red jumper or a parka?  
Alt text can help in that respect, if the user has a good text-to-speech 
tool installed.


Leslie Riggs
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RE: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Nic
Dennis, thanks for that link, an interesting opinion, and one that flies in
the face of several court cases throughout the US (in particular Florida a
few years ago)

 The New York State Attorney General offered a legal opinion 
 that all web site originating within that state are subject 
 to Section 508 of the 1973 Rehabilitation Act  

I read that and I thought huh? That can't be right.  And reading the page
on the link provided, it turns out that statement isn't quite right.  The NY
State AG said that 

the Americans With Disabilities Act requires that private web sites be
accessible to blind and visually impaired Internet users.

Two things of note here:

First, it is the ADA that is cited, NOT Section 508 of the US Vocational
Rehabilitation Act.  Section 508 is NOT applicable as the VRA applies
soleley to US Federal agencies (and some organisations funded primarely with
federal money, such as some universities), it always has, and always will.

This is an important distinction, because the ADA does not mention anywhere
in its text that it covers access to the internet (It was written pre-1990
and signed on July 26, 1992).  Therefore, to state that the ADA applies also
to companies doing business over the internet is a point that can be argued.
In fact, while it seems logical that it *should* apply, that very argument
has been used several times to lose court cases and make bad precedents (I
don't have time to dig my archives for references, but if anyone's
interested, I'll be pleased to do so).

Since the ADA doesn't not mention the internet, it also does not provide
compliance guidelines for websites.  While it is logical that either WCAG or
508 would be followed, sadly, that's not how the law functions.

So we have a law that doesn't technically apply, despite the opinion of one
AG, and even if it did apply, there is no compliance schedule to guide
people (unlike for physical structures, such as ramps (prescribed gradient
of 1:12, or door width of clear opening width of 32, etc).

In my opinion, this is a positive statement by an AG, but one that will not
accomplish a whole lot.  Big splash in a small pond :(

Secondly, the AG makes reference to people who are blind and visually
impaired using the internet.  Which is good.  But what about all the *other*
disabilities?  What about folks with mobility impairments?  Those with
seizure disorders?  Cognitive disabilities? Etc...  People with disabilities
like that also have accessibility needs.

The problem with that statement is that it could be used *against*
accessibility.  The way precedent works, lawyers and courts look for
things that have been said before and use it to build up their cases (or
decisions in the case of a court).  It is easy to see how an attorney
defending a client with a non-accessible website could say something like
Yes, but the NY State AG said that the ADA applied to blind user, without
mentioning any other disabilities, therefore, the AG's statement cannot be
used to support the fact that the ADA applies to all accessibility aspects
on the internet.  The good thing is, such a statement can't really be used
as a legal precedent, but it will certainly influence thinking.

Finally, that page speaks about settlements.  If you do a bit of research
on the web, you'll notice that there are next to NO decisions in court cases
against businesses with non accessible court cases.  The few that do have
decisions are actually *against* accessibility.  In fact, I know of only one
case that was successfully won by the plaintiff, and this was in Australia
not in the US, against the Olympic Committee's website.  I would imagine
that there *are* more successful cases out there, just haven't heard of
them.  This does NOT mean that there aren't a lot of companies that are
sued, just that the majority will settle out of court.  This is good, at
least there may be some improvement out of it, but settlements can't be used
as legal precendents, which means that actual court cases still have nothing
to support the fact that the ADA applies to the internet (the situation may
be different in other countries, of course, as the ADA doesn't apply outside
the US [yes, I've had people tell me it applied worldwide!!!])

Please note, I'm not an attorney, nor do I pretend to be one :)  I am,
however, a person with a disability who has been doing a lot of grassroot
advocacy and work with/around the ADA, and web accessibility, for over a
decade now.

Cheers, I hope my long mail hasn't bored you to tears

Nic

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Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Minh D. Tran
So I have a question, so even if it's Alt Text, how would a blind person even see to read?Al Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  From: "Joseph R. B. Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> The only thing I don't understand is how on earth does a blind  person pick out items that rely on a photograph (clothes etc)...If you go to Target's home page, you will find, in the left column what appear to be headlines describing sale and special items. They are images - and there is no Alt text. Blind people do shop :-).-- Al SparberPVIIhttp://www.projectseven.com"Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next
 Tuesday".**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list  getting help**__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com 

Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Rickshaw Driver




Alt text is read aloud be a screen
reader for those who have sight disabilities I believe.

Minh D. Tran wrote:
So
I have a question, so even if it's Alt Text, how would a blind person
even see to read?
  
  Al Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  From:
"Joseph R. B. Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

 The only thing I don't understand is how on earth does a blind 
 person pick out items that rely on a photograph (clothes etc)...

If you go to Target's home page, you will find, in the left column 
what appear to be headlines describing sale and special items. They 
are images - and there is no Alt text. Blind people do shop :-).

-- 
Al Sparber
PVII
http://www.projectseven.com

"Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling 
mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that 
repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday".




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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 




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Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Al Sparber

From: Minh D. Tran [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 2:32 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site


So I have a question, so even if it's Alt Text, how would a blind 
person even see to read?

-

It's read to them with a special application called an assistive 
reader. The application reads the alt text and/or title, or provides a 
means to open a special file if a long description attribute is used. 



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Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]

2006-02-09 Thread Terrence Wood
Thierry Koblentz said:
 Are you saying that you disagree with my interpretation of these articles
 or that I am plain wrong?
Both. You have misinterpreted the articles, and have formed an opinion
based on that misintrepretation.

Further, you are defending your opinion by simply being contrary and
nothing more (e.g. your claim that divs are hacks; you use skip links on
your site but are argueing here that every link must load an entirely new
document).

 the popup window reference is irrelevant.
 If you simply replace opening new windows with using jump links
If you replaced it with chocolate orange cake it would make sense
according to your logic, but it becomes glaringly obvious just how wrong
that logic is.

What you are calling jump links are nothing more than hypertext links.
Hypertext links are the foundation of the web. W3C define hypertext links
like this: A link is a connection from one web resource to another [1]...
The destination anchor of a link may be an element within an HTML
document.[2]

 It seems that for the author the bottom line is *consistency*
Consistency *is* the bottom line for usability. I have never disputed
that. Nielsen also says use platform conventions. Creating a list of links
to resources within a page is a convention for the web.

[1]: http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/struct/links.html#h-12.1
[2]:http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/struct/links.html#h-12.1.1



kind regards
Terrence Wood.


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Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Donna Jones


Blind Cal student sues Target. Suit charges retailer's Web site  cannot 
be used by the sightless.
... What I hope is that Target and other online merchants will  realize 
how important it is to reach 1.3 million people in this  nation and the 
growing baby-boomer population who will also be losing  vision, said 
plaintiff Bruce Sexton Jr., 24, a blind third-year  student at UC Berkeley.


Sexton, who is president of the California Association of Blind  
Students, said making Target's Web site accessible to the blind would  
also make it more navigable by those without vision problems



http://tinyurl.com/7ze7p
__


I'm happy to see this. thanks.

a question.  I just installed the extension Fangs on mozilla last night 
(i don't think its available for the latest Firefox version, yet). 
https://addons.mozilla.org/extensions/moreinfo.php?application=firefoxcategory=Developer%20Toolsnumpg=10id=402 

hu. it doesn't say it will install on Mozilla, but visited with 
mozilla and it did - works fine.


does anyone have any opinion as to how accurate it is?  other users here?

cheers
Donna



--
Donna Jones
Portland, Maine
207 772 0266
http://www.westendwebs.com/
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Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]

2006-02-09 Thread Al Sparber

From: Terrence Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]


It seems that for the author the bottom line is *consistency*
Consistency *is* the bottom line for usability. I have never 
disputed
that. Nielsen also says use platform conventions. Creating a list of 
links

to resources within a page is a convention for the web.


I hope to hell I'm not opening a can of worms here. Getting away from 
the FAQ thing to links within documents, I find that sort of 
navigation almost as annoying as popup windows. It might very well be 
a convention, but I do consider it a negative for usability. Very 
distracting - even more so when there are mixed links in the same 
area, some of which scroll to another point in the doc, while others 
load new documents.


Back to the FAQs now :-)

--
Al Sparber
PVII
http://www.projectseven.com

Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling 
mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that 
repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday.





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Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]

2006-02-09 Thread Terrence Wood
Al Sparber:
 Very distracting
Are you talking about when there is just the list of links is first and
you must scroll to get the first screen of content?

 - even more so when there are mixed links some scroll to another point,
 others load new documents.
Agreed. This is really about consistency =)

kind regards
Terrence Wood.


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Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread russ - maxdesign
 So I have a question, so even if it's Alt Text, how would a blind person even
 see to read?

Minh,
Apart from screen readers that others have mentioned, there are also devices
such as refreshable braille devices, which transfer text into braille:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/russweakley/58957885/

It might be worth having a read of this article that outlines the various
assitive technologies and how they are used:

Disabilities and Technologies
http://www.usability.com.au/resources/statistics.cfm

There is also a quick and dirty version here:
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/accessibility/04.htm

HTH
Russ

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Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]

2006-02-09 Thread Paul Novitski

At 12:22 PM 2/9/2006, Al Sparber wrote:
Getting away from the FAQ thing to links within documents, I find 
that sort of navigation almost as annoying as popup windows. It 
might very well be a convention, but I do consider it a negative for 
usability. Very distracting - even more so when there are mixed 
links in the same area, some of which scroll to another point in the 
doc, while others load new documents.



These days there are attempts made to distinguish different kinds of 
links -- those to pages within the same site vs. those to external 
sites, and those that bring up pages within the current window vs. 
those that (dog forbid!) open a new window.


If a web designer further distinguished between links that jump 
within a page vs. those that load a new page, would that obviate your 
objection?


In other words, is the problem the mixture of link types leading to 
frustrations of expectation, or is the problem with the local link itself?


Paul 


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Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]

2006-02-09 Thread Al Sparber

From: Terrence Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Al Sparber:

Very distracting
Are you talking about when there is just the list of links is first 
and

you must scroll to get the first screen of content?


For me, it's any link that scrolls the page. I'm old enough to get 
disoriented, I guess. The exception, of course, is skip links designed 
and implemented to be accessible only to assistive devices and 
keyboard surfers.


--
Al 



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Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]

2006-02-09 Thread Thierry Koblentz
Terrence Wood wrote:
 Thierry Koblentz said:
 Are you saying that you disagree with my interpretation of these
 articles or that I am plain wrong?
 Both. You have misinterpreted the articles, and have formed an opinion
 based on that misintrepretation.

I disagree.

 Further, you are defending your opinion by simply being contrary and
 nothing more (e.g. your claim that divs are hacks; you use skip links
 on your site but are argueing here that every link must load an
 entirely new document).

Wow! This time you're seriously wrong.
What I'm using on my site has absolutely nothing to with the way I interpret
the USEIT articles. FYI, I'm not only using skip links, but also popup
windows. Does that make me unaware of the issues related to both?

 the popup window reference is irrelevant.
 If you simply replace opening new windows with using jump links
 If you replaced it with chocolate orange cake it would make sense
 according to your logic, but it becomes glaringly obvious just how
 wrong that logic is.

I disagree, and FWIW I find your analogy pretty silly. One can click on a
jump link, not on a chocolate orange cake.

 What you are calling jump links are nothing more than hypertext
 links. Hypertext links are the foundation of the web. W3C define
 hypertext links like this: A link is a connection from one web
 resource to another [1]... The destination anchor of a link may be an
 element within an HTML document.[2]

That's the W3C talking, AFAIK, it has absolutely nothing to do with
usability/accessibility. It is about how things are supposed to  work, not
how they are supposed to be implemented. For example, accesskey is a proper
attribute, part of the recommendations, but there are
usability/accessibility issues attached to it, isn't? And there are other
examples...

 It seems that for the author the bottom line is *consistency*
 Consistency *is* the bottom line for usability. I have never disputed
 that. Nielsen also says use platform conventions. Creating a list of
 links to resources within a page is a convention for the web.

So how can you say that jump links in a document are consistent with the
navigation links for example? Users click on the latter and are taken to
another page, they click on the former and are taken in a different location
on the same page. How consistent is that?

Actually, I believe the key is to let the user *know* what's about to happen
when he clicks on something that is going to do anything else than loading a
*new* document. We see that with links that open popup windows so why should
we think it should be different with other behaviors? In short, I believe
that a FAQ page that says clicking on the Qs will reveals the As below is
less an issue than jump links that do not warn the user of what's gonna
happen next.

Regards,
Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com

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Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]

2006-02-09 Thread Thierry Koblentz
Terrence Wood wrote:
 Thierry Koblentz said:
 Are you saying that you disagree with my interpretation of these
 articles or that I am plain wrong?
 Both. You have misinterpreted the articles, and have formed an opinion
 based on that misintrepretation.

I disagree.

 Further, you are defending your opinion by simply being contrary and
 nothing more (e.g. your claim that divs are hacks; you use skip links
 on your site but are argueing here that every link must load an
 entirely new document).

Wow! This time you're seriously wrong.
What I'm using on my site has absolutely nothing to with the way I interpret
the USEIT articles. FYI, I'm not only using skip links, but also popup
windows. Does that make me unaware of the issues related to both?

 the popup window reference is irrelevant.
 If you simply replace opening new windows with using jump links
 If you replaced it with chocolate orange cake it would make sense
 according to your logic, but it becomes glaringly obvious just how
 wrong that logic is.

I disagree, and FWIW I find your analogy pretty silly. One can click on a
jump link, not on a chocolate orange cake.

 What you are calling jump links are nothing more than hypertext
 links. Hypertext links are the foundation of the web. W3C define
 hypertext links like this: A link is a connection from one web
 resource to another [1]... The destination anchor of a link may be an
 element within an HTML document.[2]

That's the W3C talking, AFAIK, it has absolutely nothing to do with
usability/accessibility. It is about how things are supposed to  work, not
how they are supposed to be implemented. For example, accesskey is a proper
attribute, part of the recommendations, but there are
usability/accessibility issues attached to it, isn't? And there are other
examples...

 It seems that for the author the bottom line is *consistency*
 Consistency *is* the bottom line for usability. I have never disputed
 that. Nielsen also says use platform conventions. Creating a list of
 links to resources within a page is a convention for the web.

So how can you say that jump links in a document are consistent with the
navigation links for example? Users click on the latter and are taken to
another page, they click on the former and are taken in a different location
on the same page. How consistent is that?

Actually, I believe the key is to let the user *know* what's about to happen
when he clicks on something that is going to do anything else than loading a
*new* document. We see that with links that open popup windows so why should
we think it should be different with other behaviors? In short, I believe
that a FAQ page that says clicking on the Qs will reveals the As below is
less an issue than jump links that do not warn the user of what's gonna
happen next.

Regards,
Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com

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[WSG] Today's lesson: Respect - be courteous up or leave

2006-02-09 Thread russ - maxdesign
I want to talk today about respect. For those of you who have not heard of
this concept, respect is sometimes defined as courteous regard for
people's feelings.

When you reply to a post on the list, you should at all times try to do so
with respect. Everyone on this list is entitled to their own opinion.
Sometimes they may be factually incorrect, other times they may have a
different view from you but EVERYONE should be treated with respect.
 
Below are some examples of replies that LACK respect:

You are totally wrong
That is silly
That is stupid
You know nothing about...
You are dumb
You smell

Below are some more respectful alternatives:

I'm not sure I agree with that
I think you may be misinterpreting...
I respectfully disagree for the following reasons
Have you considered taking a bath?

Today's lesson: when replying to others, be courteous or leave!

In the near future I will cover a more subtle concept: how not to always
have the last word on a subject. However, that is a bit advanced for now,
one step at a time.

Russ
Miss Manors



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Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]

2006-02-09 Thread Al Sparber

From: Paul Novitski [EMAIL PROTECTED]

If a web designer further distinguished between links that jump 
within a page vs. those that load a new page, would that obviate 
your objection?


It would mitigate it. I find it easier to tolerate a FAQ or Q/A thing 
if it's apparent that all of the questions are links to answers far 
down the page. So if I see a compact list of 20 questions and a long 
scrollbar, I'm prepared for the page to scroll when I click a link.


In other words, is the problem the mixture of link types leading to 
frustrations of expectation, or is the problem with the local link 
itself?


It's more an issue of mixing the link types.

--
Al Sparber
PVII
http://www.projectseven.com

Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling 
mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that 
repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday.





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Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]

2006-02-09 Thread Jay Gilmore




Hey Tierry and Terrance, 

This is a respectful suggestion. Since Jakob Nielsen is not dead and
Useit.com is not the King James Bible, Talmud, Torah, Quaran etc., why
not email him and get his opinion on this. In fact, I asked his opinion
on this recent adlinks phenomena just today, where sites are using
scripts to place / selling ads linking to sites that don't relate
specifically to the article. He responded briefly within two hours. 

All the best,

Jay

Thierry Koblentz wrote:

  Terrence Wood wrote:
  
  
  
Wow! This time you're seriously wrong.
What I'm using on my site has absolutely nothing to with the way I interpret
the USEIT articles. FYI, I'm not only using skip links, but also popup
windows. Does that make me unaware of the issues related to both?

  
  

  the popup window reference is irrelevant.
If you simply replace "opening new windows" with "using jump links"
  

If you replaced it with "chocolate orange cake" it would make sense
according to your logic, but it becomes glaringly obvious just how
wrong that logic is.

  
  
I disagree, and FWIW I find your analogy pretty silly. One can click on a
"jump link", not on a "chocolate orange cake".

  
  
What you are calling "jump links" are nothing more than hypertext
links. Hypertext links are the foundation of the web. W3C define
hypertext links like this: "A link is a connection from one web
resource to another [1]... The destination anchor of a link may be an
element within an HTML document.[2]"

  
  
That's the W3C talking, AFAIK, it has absolutely nothing to do with
usability/accessibility. It is about how things are supposed to  work, not
how they are supposed to be implemented. For example, accesskey is a proper
attribute, part of the recommendations, but there are
usability/accessibility issues attached to it, isn't? And there are other
examples...

  
  

  It seems that for the author the bottom line is *consistency*
  

Consistency *is* the bottom line for usability. I have never disputed
that. Nielsen also says use platform conventions. Creating a list of
links to resources within a page is a convention for the web.

  
  
So how can you say that "jump links" in a document are consistent with the
navigation links for example? Users click on the latter and are taken to
another page, they click on the former and are taken in a different location
on the same page. How consistent is that?

Actually, I believe the key is to let the user *know* what's about to happen
when he clicks on something that is going to do anything else than loading a
*new* document. We see that with links that open popup windows so why should
we think it should be different with other "behaviors"? In short, I believe
that a FAQ page that says "clicking on the Qs will reveals the As below" is
less an issue than "jump links" that do not warn the user of what's gonna
happen next.

Regards,
Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com

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Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

2006-02-09 Thread Minh D. Tran
thanks Russruss - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:   So I have a question, so even if it's Alt Text, how would a blind person even see to read?Minh,Apart from screen readers that others have mentioned, there are also devicessuch as refreshable braille devices, which transfer text into braille:http://www.flickr.com/photos/russweakley/58957885/It might be worth having a read of this article that outlines the variousassitive technologies and how they are used:Disabilities and Technologieshttp://www.usability.com.au/resources/statistics.cfmThere is also a quick and dirty version here:http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/accessibility/04.htmHTHRuss**The discussion list for
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		Brings words and photos together (easily) with 
PhotoMail  - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail.

Re: [WSG] cool FAQ page [follow up]

2006-02-09 Thread Terrence Wood
Thierry Koblentz said:
 Both. You have misinterpreted the articles, and have formed an opinion
 based on that misintrepretation.
 I disagree.
So you keep saying, but your actions are different.

 you use skip links on your site but are argueing here that every
 link must load an entirely new document.
 What I'm using on my site has absolutely nothing to with the way I
 interpret the USEIT articles.
I never said it did. What I said is you are practicing the opposite of
what you are preaching.

 If you replaced it with chocolate orange cake it would make sense
 according to your logic, but it becomes glaringly obvious just how
 wrong that logic is.
 I disagree
in fact, you *do* agree with me, you just seem unable to see how it
relates to the argument you are putting forward... Read on
 FWIW I find your analogy pretty silly.
Exactly. As is your assertion that a recommendation against opening new
windows is a recommendation against using in-page anchors. Substituting
anything in Nielsens recommendation distorts the recommendation: it *is
not* what he said, and it *does not* make sense. using jump links is not
the same as opening new windows and it clearly isn't chocolate orange
cake.

 Hypertext links are the foundation of the web.
 That's the W3C talking, AFAIK, it has absolutely nothing to do with
 usability/accessibility.
Web Standards. Consistency. Platform conventions. The thing that defines
the web.
 It is about how things are supposed to work
Exactly. If things work the way they are supposed to, then you can't get
much more usable than that.

 [accesskey's have] usability/accessibility issues attached
Yes they do, but that is a browser implementation issue, not a markup
issue. e.g. Macs browser's and Opera's accesskey implemenatation do not
conflict with the OS like other PC browsers.

 So how can you say that jump links in a document are consistent with
 the navigation links for example?
They don't have to be, in the same way that main nav, secondary nav, and
in-content links are generally easy to distinguish and understand: they
should be consistent within the context in which they appear (internally
consistent within a block?).

That said, you might have to hack in a div or heading here and there. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperlink#toctitle

 Actually, I believe the key is to let the user *know* what's about to
 happen... a FAQ page that says clicking on the Qs will reveals the As
 below is less an issue than jump links that do not warn the user of
 what's gonna happen next.

When a user clicks on a link they *know* they will be taken to the
resource described by that hypertext link. It doesn't even need an
explantion because it is so fundamental.


kind regards
Terrence Wood.

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Re: [WSG] Today's lesson: Respect - be courteous up or leave

2006-02-09 Thread Mark Harris

russ - maxdesign wrote:



Russ
Miss Manors


I respectfully would like to point out that Miss Manners may be more 
to the point. However, Russ, you are perfectly capable of representing 
big houses, it that's what floats your boat ;-)


Cheers

Mark Harris
Technology Research and Consultancy Services
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[WSG] IE7 Compatibility Team

2006-02-09 Thread Cade Whitbourn
Wow. Microsoft are taking very pro-active measures to assist the
developer community in fixing sites for IE7. 

I received an email from someone on the 'IE7 compatibility team' with a
screenshot of our site in IE7 and a list of all our stylesheets with all
the filters and hacks identified that we may need to modify.

I'm impressed. Have other site owners received any similar contact from
the IE7CPTTM yet?


C a d e  W h i t b o u r n
Web Designer - Web Projects and Business Development
Australian Stock Exchange
www.asx.com.au
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RE: [WSG] IE7 Compatibility Team

2006-02-09 Thread kvnmcwebn

Have other site owners received any similar contact from
the IE7CPTTM yet?

no can you share yours?

best
kvnmcwebn

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Re: [WSG] IE7 Compatibility Team

2006-02-09 Thread Nick Gleitzman


On 10 Feb 2006, at 10:49 AM, Cade Whitbourn wrote:


Wow. Microsoft are taking very pro-active measures to assist the
developer community in fixing sites for IE7.

I received an email from someone on the 'IE7 compatibility team' with a
screenshot of our site in IE7 and a list of all our stylesheets with 
all

the filters and hacks identified that we may need to modify.

I'm impressed. Have other site owners received any similar contact from
the IE7CPTTM yet?


C a d e  W h i t b o u r n
Web Designer - Web Projects and Business Development
Australian Stock Exchange
www.asx.com.au



Hmm. ASX, hey? Well, they sure know where the money is... Maybe they're 
starting at the top and working their way down? Or maybe they just have 
a vested interest - ?


N (Cynical? Me? Naah...)
___
Omnivision. Websight.
http://www.omnivision.com.au/

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Re: [WSG] Today's lesson: 'Respect' - be courteous up or leave

2006-02-09 Thread Gregory Alan Gross
If cyberspace forums and message boards are the standard of measure, then common courtesy is anything but common anymore. The ability to put both distance and anonymity between one's self and someone else opens the way for people to say things they wouldn't dare say to someone's face. Sometimes, that's actually a good thing. Most of the time, though, it just leads to making common courtesy an uncommon online virtue.g. On Thu Feb  9 13:58 , russ - maxdesign  sent:I want to talk today about respect. For those of you who have not heard of
this concept, respect is sometimes defined as courteous regard for
people's feelings.

When you reply to a post on the list, you should at all times try to do so
with respect. Everyone on this list is entitled to their own opinion.
Sometimes they may be factually incorrect, other times they may have a
different view from you but EVERYONE should be treated with respect.
 
Below are some examples of replies that LACK respect:

You are totally wrong
That is silly
That is stupid
You know nothing about...
You are dumb
You smell

Below are some more respectful alternatives:

I'm not sure I agree with that
I think you may be misinterpreting...
I respectfully disagree for the following reasons
Have you considered taking a bath?

Today's lesson: when replying to others, be courteous or leave!

In the near future I will cover a more subtle concept: how not to always
have the last word on a subject. However, that is a bit advanced for now,
one step at a time.

Russ
Miss Manors



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 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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RE: [WSG] IE7 Compatibility Team

2006-02-09 Thread Geoff Pack

Cade Whitbourn wrote:
 
 Wow. Microsoft are taking very pro-active measures to assist the
 developer community in fixing sites for IE7. 
 
 I received an email from someone on the 'IE7 compatibility 
 team' with a
 screenshot of our site in IE7 and a list of all our 
 stylesheets with all
 the filters and hacks identified that we may need to modify.
 
 I'm impressed. Have other site owners received any similar 
 contact from
 the IE7CPTTM yet?
 

I would send them back a list of the css bugs they should fix so the filters 
and hacks that no longer work in IE7 won't be needed anyway.

Geoff.





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Re: [WSG] IE7 Compatibility Team

2006-02-09 Thread Alastair Steel

Why would you hack standards compliant code for Microsoft.

Ask if they would like to foot the bill or if they had considered  
writing an application that was standards compliant.


Forget that as it may not have all the bugs and vulnerabilities that  
we have come to know and love.


Yours Sincerely,
Alastair Steel





On 10/02/2006, at 11:40 AM, Geoff Pack wrote:



Cade Whitbourn wrote:


Wow. Microsoft are taking very pro-active measures to assist the
developer community in fixing sites for IE7.

I received an email from someone on the 'IE7 compatibility
team' with a
screenshot of our site in IE7 and a list of all our
stylesheets with all
the filters and hacks identified that we may need to modify.

I'm impressed. Have other site owners received any similar
contact from
the IE7CPTTM yet?



I would send them back a list of the css bugs they should fix so  
the filters and hacks that no longer work in IE7 won't be needed  
anyway.


Geoff.





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Re: Edit: Re: [WSG] [Please don't flame :)] HTML, XML what's the difference.

2006-02-09 Thread Patrick H. Lauke