Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Lachlan Hunt

Bert Doorn wrote:

Serdar Kýlýç wrote:

How does one open a new window with a 4.01 Strict DOCTYPE and have it
be valid? For my weblog I ran the w3 validator and it complained that
there is no attribute called target


The users!  Please, won't somebody think of the *users*!

Many users hate popup windows.  There are no valid use-cases or reasons 
for opening a popup window, don't do it.  If you think you have one, I'd 
like to hear it, but know this: I've heard many excuses over the years 
(some more often than others) but every single one of them has been 
flawed in some way.


The main idea is that one should not open new windows at all, leaving it 
up to the user to decide, which is why the target attribute was removed.


Correct.

But if you want to (or have to), either go back to transitional or use 
javascript.  You may find some discussions about it in the mail list 
archives, but the simplest implementation would go along these lines:


a href=page.html onclick=return !window.open(this.href)link text/a


That is absolutely no better than using the target attribute.  In fact, 
for accessibility reasons, it is worse.


Good browsers, like Firefox (and probably many others), allow the user 
to easily disable the effect of the target attribute when it would cause 
a new window to open, without interfering with legitimate uses of it in 
frames (which are also evil).  However, with window.open, the ability is 
not so easy.  It is possible to do in Firefox.  I do it myself, so that 
any call to window.open acts like a regular link and opens the page in 
the same window).  However, it does have side-affects that an average 
user would find more difficult to cope with.


Thus, while I personally find that both the target attribute or 
window.open() (when used like the example above) are of little concern 
[1], most users wouldn't be able to override the script as easily as the 
target attribute.  Additionally, a user stylesheet may be used to 
indicate the presence of the target attribute, but not of that specific 
type of script, and so the user has no opportunity to take further 
action to prevent it (if required).


Also, for those that don't know how to prevent even the target attribute 
from opening a new window, why should they be forced to accept them?  Do 
you consider it a kind of opt-in/out feature, whereby unless a user 
explicitly requests not to see new windows, then they must be ok with them?


[1] window.close(), on the other hand, is a pain in the *** thanks to a 
bug in Firefox, which has only recently been fixed in the trunk

--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/
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Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Miika Mäkinen
Very good points by Lachlan. Personally I got so annoyed for example of cssimport opening links to new window that I just stopped checking that site. It definately should be the visitors choice to open a link in new window or not.
On 2/15/06, Lachlan Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Bert Doorn wrote: Serdar Kýlýç wrote: How does one open a new window with a 4.01 Strict DOCTYPE and have it be valid? For my weblog I ran the w3 validator and it complained that there is no attribute called target
The users!Please, won't somebody think of the *users*!Many users hate popup windows.There are no valid use-cases or reasonsfor opening a popup window, don't do it.If you think you have one, I'd
like to hear it, but know this: I've heard many excuses over the years(some more often than others) but every single one of them has beenflawed in some way. The main idea is that one should not open new windows at all, leaving it
 up to the user to decide, which is why the target attribute was removed.Correct. But if you want to (or have to), either go back to transitional or use _javascript_.You may find some discussions about it in the mail list
 archives, but the simplest implementation would go along these lines: a href=""  !window.open(this.href)link text/aThat is absolutely no better than using the target attribute.In fact,
for accessibility reasons, it is worse.Good browsers, like Firefox (and probably many others), allow the userto easily disable the effect of the target attribute when it would causea new window to open, without interfering with legitimate uses of it in
frames (which are also evil).However, with window.open, the ability isnot so easy.It is possible to do in Firefox.I do it myself, so thatany call to window.open acts like a regular link and opens the page in
the same window).However, it does have side-affects that an averageuser would find more difficult to cope with.Thus, while I personally find that both the target attribute orwindow.open() (when used like the example above) are of little concern
[1], most users wouldn't be able to override the script as easily as thetarget attribute.Additionally, a user stylesheet may be used toindicate the presence of the target attribute, but not of that specific
type of script, and so the user has no opportunity to take furtheraction to prevent it (if required).Also, for those that don't know how to prevent even the target attributefrom opening a new window, why should they be forced to accept them?Do
you consider it a kind of opt-in/out feature, whereby unless a userexplicitly requests not to see new windows, then they must be ok with them?[1] window.close(), on the other hand, is a pain in the *** thanks to a
bug in Firefox, which has only recently been fixed in the trunk--Lachlan Hunthttp://lachy.id.au/**The discussion list for
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Re: [WSG] just sharing the frustration

2006-02-15 Thread Miika Mäkinen
Check also http://tim.mackey.ie/CleanWordHTMLUsingRegularExpressions.aspx for regular expressions to do this.
On 2/15/06, Hope Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The Find And Replace feature in Dreamweaver can also be a huge time saver.Other programs probably have this same feature. For example:Replace all: br /With: /lili(and remember to add li to the beginning of the first line and /li to
the end of the last line.)Then use the Dreamweaver command Apply Source Formatting to make the codemore readable.It might be safer (and easier), however, to use this feature by first
pasting the text into a blank html page, do all your editing there and thencopy/paste the re-formatted text into your real page. That way you don't runthe risk of accidentally altering code you didn't want altered.
HTH,Hope StewartOn 15/2/06 2:59 PM, Zulema [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wow! I will remember all this for the next time, since I do a lot of
 Word-to-HTML converting. The crazy thing about this one particular Word doc was that it wasn't in formatted bulleted lists because it was copy extracted from a PDF we got from the client as it seems they didn't have the original copy deck
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Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Christian Montoya
On 2/15/06, Serdar Kılıç [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 How does one open a new window with a 4.01 Strict DOCTYPE and have it
 be valid? For my weblog I ran the w3 validator and it complained that
 there is no attribute called target

Serdar, you have to trust your visitors. They know how to use the back
button. If they want to return to your site, they will. If they don't,
don't annoy them by keeping your weblog open when they actually try to
leave your site by following a link.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com


Re: [WSG] Web design education

2006-02-15 Thread Steve Olive

Hi all,

First post - I teach IT and support half of the computer network for  
the Arts  IT section at Bathurst TAFE. We teach Web Design (as well  
as other courses like Digital Media and Client Support) and for the  
last five years have pushed for students to not only design using  
XHTML and CSS but to have assessments meet the standards for the  
different WAI levels. With pressure from teachers and the Head  
Teacher students have access to Internet Explorer, Firefox, Mozilla,  
Opera and Lynx. The last three years have seen hosting on LAMP  
servers so students are required to learn PHP and MySQL.


The modules are the same as those used by all the other TAFE Campuses  
but our teachers are determined to produce students who know the  
standards and can design effective, artistic and meet the standards.  
We have been blocked by the IT Network support staff at higher levels  
but with pressure from staff and students the required applications  
have been installed because it is the teaching that is important.


Keep up the pressure about standards compliance - it is important and  
will save businesses large sums of money (just ask Target USA).


Regards,

Steve

On 14/02/2006, at 10:28 PM, Ric Raftis wrote:

Your comments reminded me that I had neglected to mention something  
else regarding my TAFE experiences.  Perhaps I should mention that  
I am 50 years of age and attended as a mature age student and not  
someone out of high school, however despite all amounts of  
agitating and lobbying, the Bendigo TAFE refused to provide access  
to Firefox or Opera or any other browser apart from IE.  That was  
the only browser that you could use to access the outside world.   
You couldn't install or run your own versions locally, so  
consequently Firefox and the Web Developer Extension were not  
available to test your sites or ensure that code was valid.


Maybe this will change in the future, but it has to come from the  
top.  The thing that I found most amazing was that the IT people in  
charge of the networks had the say over the people delivering the  
courses.  It was actually the network administrators that stymied  
the efforts of the lecturers by denying access to better browsers  
and tools.  You would have thought that IT professionals would be  
far more aware of the benefits of using compliant browsers and be  
implementing these in our educational institutions.


Regards,

Ric

Michael Nelson wrote:


Ric Raftis wrote:

It was interesting reading your post James because it seems that
TAFEs across the country may vary widely despite courses
supposedly being drawn from a national based syllabus and
providing national accreditation.

Related to this, I reckon one of the biggest problems causing a  
lack of standards in Web design education is a lack of  
collaboration. Each facilitator/lecturor is re-inventing the wheel  
with activities and resources largely due to IP restrictions  
within their workplace. In reality, many facilitators just end up  
re-using the same resources that's been used for the last 5 years  
because on their own they don't have time to update both their own  
skills and the resources they use.


The ironic thing is that (nearly) all the best info on Web Design  
topics is being shared freely by professional designers on their  
blogs/sites! ... I mean, with excellent sites like http:// 
webdesignfromscratch.com/ and http://maxdesign.com.au/ published  
by professionals, what is the role of an educator?


My take is that if lecturors and facilitators were able to  
collaboratively create and update flexible learning pathways from  
all the great free stuff out there, we'd be in a better position  
to help the uptake of standards in Web design education.


(Plug) : 'cause of this, I've started setting up a WebDesign  
Wikibook over at:
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Web_Design http://en.wikibooks.org/ 
wiki/Web_Design
 Really it's just ordering and grouping all the great resources  
out there created by you professionals into some sort of learning  
pathway with ideas for activities... Feel free to contribute :)


--
Michael Nelson
http://liveandletlearn.net/



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[WSG] Plugin - was [ just sharing the frustration ]

2006-02-15 Thread Designer

Jay Gilmore wrote:

. . . I usually paste as plain text into HTML-Kit and I have a plugin 
that converts line breaks into p p and also can turn text lists 
into ul's or ol's.



Hey Jay,

Can you tell us more? What plugin?  Sounds very handy!

Thanks

Bob McClelland
Cornwall (U.K.)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk



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Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Ian Anderson

Lachlan Hunt wrote:

Many users hate popup windows.  There are no valid use-cases or reasons 
for opening a popup window, don't do it.


I disagree with this statement. In my opinion, there are several very 
good use cases.


The primary one is help windows, where instructions can be compared with 
the items in the main window. A variant of this is TCs in forms, where 
there are serious consequences for the user if they move off the page 
while in the middle of completing a form - they may lose some or all data.


I think generalisations like users hate popup windows are perhaps a 
little unhelpful. I am sure a lot of people dislike popup adverts, but 
to dismiss all use of popups on this basis is clearly to throw the baby 
out with the bath water.


That is absolutely no better than using the target attribute.  In fact, 
for accessibility reasons, it is worse.


This is not true, in my experience. Popup windows with JavaScript are 
more usable than with target, because they are usually sized smaller 
than the main window (so not causing confusion), and caused users with 
disabilities no problems at all in any of the user testing we've done 
where popups were encountered in tasks.


Also, because the button UI is usually turned off, there are fewer 
issues with users starting to surf in the new window and losing their 
window history, which is a problem using target _blank.


In fact, screen reader users may well perform tasks faster in popup 
windows because there is a lot less clutter around the content. Provided 
they are used appropriately, and the user is informed of their use in 
situations where they are not normally found, in my view there is no 
huge problem with them.


Cheers

Ian

--
_
zStudio - Web development and accessibility
http://zStudio.co.uk

Snippetz.net - Online code library
File, manage and re-use your code snippets  links
http://snippetz.net

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Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com



If I *have* to open a new window, I 
use this:

onclick="target='_blank'" onkeypress="target='_blank'"

It is 
still script dependent, and does work with key operation as 
well.

Mike 
Cherimhttp://green-beast.com/http://accessites.org/
How 
  does one open a new window with a 4.01 Strict DOCTYPE and have itbe valid? 
  For my weblog I ran the w3 validator and it complained thatthere is no 
  attribute called target--Cheers,Serdar Kilichttp://weblog.kilic.net/


Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Lachlan Hunt

Ian Anderson wrote:

Lachlan Hunt wrote:

Many users hate popup windows.  There are no valid use-cases or 
reasons for opening a popup window, don't do it.


I disagree with this statement. In my opinion, there are several very 
good use cases.


Name one for which a popup window is the only valid and, indeed, best 
solution!


The primary one is help windows, where instructions can be compared with 
the items in the main window. A variant of this is TCs in forms, where 
there are serious consequences for the user if they move off the page 
while in the middle of completing a form - they may lose some or all data.


While that is legitimate use-case that comes up quite often on the web, 
the best solution does not involve popup windows.  In fact, related to 
the issues I discussed earlier, popup windows can be prevented and you 
have no idea which users do this.  Thus, while relying on the popup 
windows to solve this problem may work for 99% of visitors, for the 1% 
that don't get a new window (incl. those without script and those, like 
myself, that explicitly disable popups), the problem you're trying to 
solve is still a problem.


This is one solution that doesn't involve popups, that I have actually 
used myself in a recent project.

http://juicystudio.com/article/form-help-without-popups.html

That solution works acceptably for 100% of users, regardless of their 
support for javascript, popup windows or any other feature.


I think generalisations like users hate popup windows are perhaps a 
little unhelpful.


But the statement is 100% accurate.  I, as a user, hate popups.  I know 
of many others that hate popups too.  I did not say all users, just 
users.  Regardless of how many users that is, are you really willing 
to annoy them?  Is it not safer to avoid using popup windows, 
considering that people that don't mind them won't be at all upset when 
they don't see them; but those that hate them, will be if they do?


I am sure a lot of people dislike popup adverts, but 
to dismiss all use of popups on this basis is clearly to throw the baby 
out with the bath water.


I'm not just dismissing them on the basis that popup adverts annoy 
people, I'm dismissing them for serious usability and accessibility 
concerns, some of which I discussed earlier.  Here's another:


Every time you open an unrequested window (assuming my browser wasn't 
configured to block them completely), that's another window I eventually 
have to close.  That's annoying, especially when I didn't request it. 
My mouse has a built in back and forward button and when you open a 
popup, those buttons don't work - there is no close popup button.  It 
takes longer to move my mouse up to the close button than it does to 
push the back button with my thumb, which is just wasting my time on a 
tedious task I shouldn't have even been faced with.


That is absolutely no better than using the target attribute.  In 
fact, for accessibility reasons, it is worse.


This is not true,


Yes it is.  I even gave an example to explain why.  Just because your 
usability testing failed to test the scenario I presented, doesn't mean 
it doesn't happen.



Also, because the button UI is usually turned off,


You're assuming the browser is configured to let you turn off the 
chrome.  That's another bad assumption, because browsers can be easily 
configured to always show the chrome that the user wants.


there are fewer issues with users starting to surf in the new window 
and losing their window history, which is a problem using target _blank.


So what if they started to surf with the new window!?  Is there some 
rule against that?  It's a browser window, just like the original,  It 
clearly doesn't really matter whether they browse with that one or any 
other.


What I really don't understand is that there are so many people who 
participate in this and various other mailing lists, newsgroups and 
forums that actively advise against using popups and explain why they 
hate them, yet you still somehow believe that users are ok with them. 
Newsflash: we are users too!  Listen to us when we tell you outright 
that *we hate popup windows!*  Do not use them, find a better solution.


--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/
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Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Stephen Stagg

On 15 Feb 2006, at 11:53, Mike at Green-Beast.com wrote:


If I *have* to open a new window, I use this:

onclick=target='_blank' onkeypress=target='_blank'

It is still script dependent, and does work with key operation as  
well.




[pony mode]
?¿? This seems a little ridiculous to me.  Just because a page/site,  
passes the automated W3C test, does not make it standards compliant.   
Tricking the validator into thinking that you are serving valid  
regexX?HTML[1:5]/regex while breaking it using Javascript to  
insert non-standard code completely undermines the whole self- 
accreditation process.  This is as bad as using your Web server to  
present clean versions of your page to the validator while serving  
bad pages to your users.

[/pony mode]

Ok that might of been a bit blunt but...
why not use window.open('') as a standard behavior OR just include  
the target property in the HTML, I don't think you'll break any  
browser by doing this and you will be able to settle with your  
conscience that you're not being underhand about using non-standard  
HTML.


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[WSG] Mac Update

2006-02-15 Thread Stephen Stagg

Heads up,

I haven't properly checked it out yet but Mac have released an OS  
update and the second item in the changelog summary is:


- Safari rendering of web pages

This may have broken/fixed websites that you are responsible for.

Stephen

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Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Stephen Stagg

On 15 Feb 2006, at 12:28, Lachlan Hunt wrote:


What I really don't understand is that there are so many people who  
participate in this and various other mailing lists, newsgroups and  
forums that actively advise against using popups and explain why  
they hate them, yet you still somehow believe that users are ok  
with them. Newsflash: we are users too!  Listen to us when we tell  
you outright that *we hate popup windows!*  Do not use them, find a  
better solution.




For that matter, I am a user too and I like popups when used  
properly.  Perhaps your aggressive responses tend to be a bit pony-ish?

You can never please everyone, the example you gave of


http://juicystudio.com/article/form-help-without-popups.html


is not something I prefer over a well implemented popup and  
therefore, for this issue, using these inline-hidden-help-comments  
are annoying me, and people like me.


Every time you open an unrequested window (assuming my browser  
wasn't configured to block them completely), that's another window  
I eventually have to close.  That's annoying, especially when I  
didn't request it. My mouse has a built in back and forward button  
and when you open a popup, those buttons don't work - there is no  
close popup button.  It takes longer to move my mouse up to the  
close button than it does to push the back button with my thumb,  
which is just wasting my time on a tedious task I shouldn't have  
even been faced with.


If you don't like having to move your mouse up to the toolbar of your  
window when closing them, learn your OSs key combination for closing  
the active window.  (Windows: Alt-F4, Mac OSx Cmd-W)  This way, you  
can improve your productivity.


I don't have a 100Mbit connection so I like it when a site opens an  
external link in a new window, this way I can continue reading the  
original page while the new site loads-up in the background.  Also,  
during product research / information farming, I can fairly  
confidently expect most sites I visit to open external links in new  
windows.  This allows me to carry 2 or 3 research threads at one  
time, It allways irks me when a site doesn't do this and I  
accidentally close the active window and loose my history.


I'm not tying to disagree with the points you made, they are valid,  
but so are mine, yours isn't the only point of view.  So flaming the  
list to try to get people to bow to your experience is not always  
helpful.


Stephen.

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Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread James Gollan

Lachlan Hunt wrote:

Ian Anderson wrote:

Lachlan Hunt wrote:


I think generalisations like users hate popup windows are perhaps a 
little unhelpful.


But the statement is 100% accurate.  I, as a user, hate popups.  I 
know of many others that hate popups too.  I did not say all users, 
just users.  Regardless of how many users that is, are you really 
willing to annoy them?  Is it not safer to avoid using popup windows, 
considering that people that don't mind them won't be at all upset 
when they don't see them; but those that hate them, will be if they do?
It may be technically 100% accurate, but in that case so is the 
statement users hate it when a new site opens in the current window and 
takes them away from the site they were viewing. It only takes 2 users 
to make this true. And these 2 users may also be annoyed :)


I am not a pop-up advocate, I think it's best to clearly identify 
external links but open them in the current window. I do, however, 
wonder about the number of users that actually know that they can 
override the browser and open a link in a new window. This is often put 
up in support of the no pop-up argument, but I find it hard to imagine 
that the average user (whatever that may be) knows about this feature. 
Any stats or studies you know of?


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Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Designer

Ian Anderson wrote:

I disagree with this statement. In my opinion, there are several very 
good use cases.


The primary one is help windows, where instructions can be compared 
with the items in the main window. A variant of this is TCs in forms, 
where there are serious consequences for the user if they move off the 
page while in the middle of completing a form - they may lose some or 
all data.


I think generalisations like users hate popup windows are perhaps a 
little unhelpful. I am sure a lot of people dislike popup adverts, but 
to dismiss all use of popups on this basis is clearly to throw the 
baby out with the bath water.


I agree absolutely. My reasoning (based upon lots of user feedback to 
me) is as follows:


Partway through the eighties, Microsoft launched Windows in competition 
with the Apple MAC, which had become renowned for it's graphical User 
Interface (or GUI). This was hailed as a major step forward, with users 
able to do real multi-tasking at last.


Since then, the systems have grown and improved and are the norm - the 
thought of going back to DOS is pretty repellent for nearly everyone, 
and esp for folk doing graphics (Photoshop for DOS? Illustrator for DOS? 
- the mind boggles!


So, we all work in Windows, of one sort or another.

The whole basis of our way of working centers around windows: if you're 
in an application and need help, you hit the help link/button and it 
opens in a new window. This is good - instead of removing what you are 
working on, the help is displayed separately, maintaining the original 
content intact. You want to send a mail? No problem. just click your 
mail icon and another window opens. And so it goes on. It's /very/ 
convenient indeed, and has improved productivity enormously, esp 
compared to the old days of 'one program, one at a time' of DOS.  Even 
in this standards environment, you'll find that the web developer 
toolbar for firefox opens its results in a new window (tab, whatever). 
View source? Certainly Sir : here it is - oh yes, it's in a new window!  
Even this mail you are reading is probably in a new window (unless you 
use a preview pane and risk opening a virus, of course)!   And the 
reasoning? It's VERY convenient!


So, having been accustomed to this way of working for many years, I try 
to get some of this flexibility and uncluttered approach into my web 
pages. If I have a gallery of images, a click on a thumbnail will 
perhaps open a larger display of the image - in a new window. If there 
are some notes to be referenced, they open in a new window. If a link is 
waiting for the content to be completed, an alert box available 
shortly pops up, instead of you going to a useless (or non-existent) 
page and having to come back unfulfilled. Marvellous! Instead of waiting 
to go 'back' or 'forwards' all the time, the web experience becomes as 
convenient, handy, and easy to navigate as the rest of the computing 
experience. Great!


. . . or so I thought!

It seems that what I'm doing is wrong - popups are evil, opening new 
windows is the work of the devil, and lots of similar horror accusations 
abound. Apparently, it's an accessibility sin to open new windows - it's 
also an affront to a user's choice if I dictate that a new window is 
opened, esp if I don't warn the user. OK, everyone just hates those 
annoying advertisement popups which appear, unsolicited, when viewing 
certain web sites. But that isn't the same thing as opening a help or 
information link in a new window, now is it?  OK, in practice I do try 
to be as accessible as possible. If you look at my site link below, 
you'll see that in the 'portfolio' section (where I want open new 
windows) it clearly says so on the links. So I do try to be 'good'.


However, I do remain confused: Whilst I really do have every sympathy 
with someone who has an accessibility problem, I cannot reconcile how it 
can be OK (indeed desirable) to use a fully fledged windows system (MAC 
or PC) for 'computing', but as soon as you boot up your browser, all the 
'requirements' change. 


Duh??

Bob McClelland
Cornwall (U.K.)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk


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Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com



Hello Stephen,

Don't apologize for being blunt. If 
that's how you want to write your sentiments it's fine by me. No offense taken. 


For the record, I'm not 
sayinghiding the target attribute in a script element isstandards 
compliant, andI don't open new windows on any of my sites. None.I 
was just trying to answer the fellow's question with yet another alternative 
that functions and doesn't set offthe validator (plus facilitates keyboard 
users). Others had already supplied window.open.

My only personaluse of this 
is in my CMS [1]so that users can open the documentation 
librarywhile in mid-edit without fear of losing their work. This is known 
in advance by CMS users if they read the documentation supplied before 
downloading and using the product. I also offer a setting in the CMS that users 
can choose if they want their site to open in a new window if launched from 
within the CMS.

[1] http://greenbeastcms.com/

Sincerely,
Mike Cherimhttp://green-beast.com/http://accessites.org/


[pony mode]?¿? This seems a little ridiculous to me. Just because 
a page/site, passes the automated W3C test, does not make it standards 
compliant. Tricking the validator into thinking that you are 
serving valid regexX?HTML[1:5]/regex while breaking it 
using _javascript_ to insert non-standard code completely undermines the 
whole self- accreditation process. This is as bad as using your Web 
server to present clean versions of your page to the validator while 
serving bad pages to your users.[/pony mode]Ok that might 
of been a bit blunt but...why not use window.open('') as a standard behavior 
OR just include the target property in the HTML, I don't think you'll 
break any browser by doing this and you will be able to settle with 
your conscience that you're not being underhand about using 
non-standard HTML.Stephen


Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Lachlan Hunt

James Gollan wrote:

Lachlan Hunt wrote:

Ian Anderson wrote:

Lachlan Hunt wrote:


I think generalisations like users hate popup windows are perhaps a 
little unhelpful.


But the statement is 100% accurate...


It may be technically 100% accurate, but in that case so is the 
statement users hate it when a new site opens in the current window and 
takes them away from the site they were viewing. It only takes 2 users 
to make this true. And these 2 users may also be annoyed :)


True, but such users can only be annoyed with themselves for failing to 
understand how to use their browser in a way that gives the results they 
want; not with the author for failing to meet their specific 
requirements, which will very likely differ significantly between every 
user.


I am not a pop-up advocate, I think it's best to clearly identify 
external links but open them in the current window. I do, however, 
wonder about the number of users that actually know that they can 
override the browser and open a link in a new window.


I'm sure there are many that don't know how to open a new tab/window, 
but I'm sure there are many, many more that don't know how to prevent a 
new tab or window.  This is, perhaps, a browser usability issue, but it 
should be addressed by the browser vendors, not web page authors.


--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/
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Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Lachlan Hunt

Stephen Stagg wrote:

On 15 Feb 2006, at 12:28, Lachlan Hunt wrote:


What I really don't understand is that there are so many people who 
participate in this and various other mailing lists, newsgroups and 
forums that actively advise against using popups and explain why they 
hate them, yet you still somehow believe that users are ok with them. 
Newsflash: we are users too!  Listen to us when we tell you outright 
that *we hate popup windows!*  Do not use them, find a better solution.




For that matter, I am a user too and I like popups when used properly.  
Perhaps your aggressive responses tend to be a bit pony-ish?

You can never please everyone, the example you gave of


http://juicystudio.com/article/form-help-without-popups.html


is not something I prefer over a well implemented popup and therefore, 
for this issue, using these inline-hidden-help-comments are annoying me, 
and people like me.


For what reason are they annoying?  You can't just say something is 
annoying because you think something else is better, you have explain 
what it is about it that is annoying, and perhaps the issue could be 
addressed to improve the method without resorting to popups.


If you don't like having to move your mouse up to the toolbar of your 
window when closing them, learn your OSs key combination for closing the 
active window.  (Windows: Alt-F4, Mac OSx Cmd-W)  This way, you can 
improve your productivity.


I know the key combination, but then I'd have to move my hand to the 
keyboard which takes just as long.  While browsing I use the mouse far 
more often than the keyboard since a) most of the time, I'm not typing 
anything, and b) my mouse has every major browsing function built in 
(back/forward, clicking links (obviously), scrolling, selecting text, etc.).


I don't have a 100Mbit connection so I like it when a site opens an 
external link in a new window,


Then you have every right to request your browser to do so for you. 
What reason does the author have to believe that all users feel that way 
about the situation, when they clearly don't?


Every time I click a link, I make that decision for myself.  It's not 
that hard.  If I want the same window, I'll left click and if I want a 
new tab (or window, if you prefer), I'll middle click.  You and every 
other user can perform exactly the same function with your browser 
(using whatever mouse/keyboard command it's configured with), the author 
should not interfere with the user's decision.


--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/
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Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Al Sparber

From: Ric Raftis [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Bert Doorn wrote:

The main idea is that one should not open new windows at all, 
leaving it up to the user to decide, which is why the target 
attribute was removed.


G'day Bert,

This always seems to be a subject of some debate.  For commercial 
sites, I ALWAYS open a new blank window on a link.  I do however 
advise users that this will happen and that they only have to close 
the new window to return to my site.  From a marketing standpoint, 
why would you want to be showing people the door and then pushing 
them out into the street?


I think you raise a very valid point. People who rely on a web site 
to make money tend to have a much different view of such things and 
use much different criteria to judge the merits of various techniques. 
That said, I have maintained for a long time that Javascript, with a 
return false, is the best way to open a new window and we've been 
doing it that way for years. The W3C, however, does need to get a bit 
more mindful of the commercial side of the Web. Who knows, frames 
might one day become the tool they should have been all along, if the 
W3C develops logical specifications :-)


--
Al Sparber
PVII
http://www.projectseven.com

Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling 
mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that 
repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday.





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Re: [WSG] Plugin - was [ just sharing the frustration ]

2006-02-15 Thread Jay Gilmore

Designer wrote:

Jay Gilmore wrote:

. . . I usually paste as plain text into HTML-Kit and I have a plugin 
that converts line breaks into p p and also can turn text lists 
into ul's or ol's.




Hey Jay,

Can you tell us more? What plugin?  Sounds very handy!

Thanks

Bob McClelland
Cornwall (U.K.)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk






Bob,

If you are an HTML-Kit user the plugin is called wkStructure and is 
available at http://www.chami.com/html-kit/plugins/info/wkstructure/ . I 
am sure that there are good ways to do these sorts of things in 
DreamWeaver but I quit using it two years ago when I found HTML-Kit as 
it Dreamweaver is a system resources pig for someone who would only use 
code view.


There are hundreds of plugins for Hkit and more than I will ever use. 
There are limits to the program as it is not a very good IDE for PHP 
which Dreamweaver is.


All the best,

Jay
--
Jay Gilmore
Developer / Consultant
SmashingRed Web  Marketing
P] 902.529.0651
E] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
U] http://www.smashingred.com
B] http://www.smashingred.com/blog
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Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Lachlan Hunt

Designer wrote:
Since then, the systems have grown and improved and are the norm - the 
thought of going back to DOS is pretty repellent for nearly everyone, 
and esp for folk doing graphics (Photoshop for DOS? Illustrator for DOS? 
- the mind boggles!


So, we all work in Windows, of one sort or another.


True, but there have been significant steps taken over the past several 
years in order to reduce the number of windows open.  Tabbed-browsing is 
probably the most significant example of this.  Also, the find-toolbar 
in Firefox is a wonderful invention, compared with the old-style find 
dialogs.


The whole basis of our way of working centers around windows: if you're 
in an application and need help, you hit the help link/button and it 
opens in a new window.


Which unfortunately covers up the application I'm using, making it 
difficult to both reference the help while working with the application. 
 I need to mess around with resising the windows to align them 
side-by-side to do so.


One of the best help-windows I've seen is the way it's done in MS 
Office, with Clippy (yes, I love the paper clip, though it shouldn't 
prompt me about writing letters nearly as often as it does) sitting 
nicely in the bottom corner which doesn't cover up any of my work. 
Then, when I open a help topic, it opens up in a nice side bar, which is 
very easily referenced while working in the app and it doesn't cover up 
anything.  (it actually takes care of the resizing for you and puts it 
back again when you close it.


This is good - instead of removing what you are 
working on, the help is displayed separately, maintaining the original 
content intact.


I agree with not losing what you're working on, but that is exactly what 
that form help without popups script does, from juicy studio which I 
linked to earlier in the thread.


You want to send a mail? No problem. just click your 
mail icon and another window opens.


Yes, but it would be nice if it didn't open a new window.  I can't wait 
for tabbed-mail-clients to be introduced.  I read somewhere a while ago 
that Thunderbird will be introducing this in the future.  I find it 
annoying that I need to have a separate compose window for every e-mail 
I'm typing at the same time, I would love to have a single tabbed 
interface for this.



...and has improved productivity enormously,


Actually, I disagree with that.  From my own experience, my productivity 
is inversely proportional the number of windows I have open, as a 
significant amount of time is wasted keeping track of them all, and 
looking for the one I want to switch to next.


The same is true of browser tabs, I can't handle more than 5 or 6 open 
at a time.  The ability to re-order tabs has helped since I can keep 
them in a logical order, but still I find it difficult and really don't 
understand how people can have 20 or more.  Although, I understand that 
is a personal choice and, for some, that many may increase their 
productivity.  My point is that everyone is different and has different 
requirements and work habits and, therefore, it needs to be up to the 
user whether they want so many new windows or not.


in this standards environment, you'll find that the web developer 
toolbar for firefox opens its results in a new window (tab, whatever).


That must be configurable, it never opens a new window for me.  It 
defaults to opening tabs for validation, viewing response headers, etc.



View source? Certainly Sir : here it is - oh yes, it's in a new window!


There are Firefox extensions that cause View Source to open in a new tab 
(web dev toolbar can do that) and Opera will view source in a new tab by 
default.


Even this mail you are reading is probably in a new window (unless you 
use a preview pane and risk opening a virus, of course)!


What?  The preview pane is no more of a security risk than than opening 
the mail in a new window, unless you're using Outlook (aka. Virus 
Express) and there's some unpatched security vulnerability in it (which 
wouldn't surprise me at all).  However, it seems you're using 
Thunderbird 1.0.2 (note: it's way out of date, upgrade to 1.5), so it 
would very much surprise me if you could point out a valid vulnerability 
specifically related to use of the preview pane, even if it's already 
patched in more recent versions.


Anyway, the most secure (and recommended) way to view (and send) e-mail 
is plain-text only.  It's immune to any potential JavaScript security 
holes (TB disables JS by default anyway, unlike Outlook) and it's not 
vulnerable to the common URL spoofing techniques with HTML mail (even 
though recent versions of TB will give warnings about that in HTML 
mode).  It's also much more readable than HTML for various reasons (but 
that's getting off-topic).


So, having been accustomed to this way of working for many years, I try 
to get some of this flexibility and uncluttered approach into my web


How could opening new windows be considered 

RE: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Jona Decker
Lachlan Hunt wrote:


For what reason are they annoying?  You can't just say something is
annoying because you think something else is better, you have explain
what it is about it that is annoying, and perhaps the issue could be
addressed to improve the method without resorting to popups.


I'll tell you what I found annoying...and I'm sure I'll get pounded for
pointing this out. If the viewport isn't the right size you do not see
this expanded text. So you click on the help question mark, and
seemingly nothing happens. 

I had a captive audience when this discussion started...my visiting
Mother. One of those senior users who isn't particularly savvy. I
fired up a non-maximized window on my laptop, experienced it for myself,
and asked her to take a look at the page.

She was absolutely flummoxed by the invisibility of the help text, and
presumed something was broken. 

The first time she opened a popup, awhile back, she was surprised. She
was surprised by just about everything, to be frank. She learned from
her first popup. But her expectation, when she clicks on help, is for
*something* to happen. With the viewport the wrong size, it does not
with this method.

Jona


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Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Designer

Lachlan Hunt wrote:

[a lot! :-)]

---

Hi Lachlan,

I am not attempting to reply to all your specific points, except in 
generalisation.


I think that we all have different ways of working, and that's OK by 
me.  Your points about tabbing I accept, but for the purpose of this 
discussion, a tab is the same as a window.  (It's just 'contained' in a 
different way).  You still have to move your mouse (or keyboard) to get 
from one to another.


I'm surprised at your comment that the number of windows is being 
reduced these days - have you seen Dreamweaver lately? Flash 7? 
Photoshop?  I find it impossible to work on a lot of these graphics 
programs without two monitors on the go! (I'd often like 3 actually - 
code on the middle screen, tools on the left screen and browser on the 
right :-)


Incidentally, preview pane: surely, having something appear in the 
preview pane is the same as opening it? And opening mail is a really 
good way to set a virus free. Looking at the subject, who it's from etc 
and deciding whether to read it or bin it is much more secure as far as 
I can see.


Thanks for your comments - they are all food for thought!

Bob
Cornwall (U.K.)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk




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RE: [WSG] just sharing the frustration

2006-02-15 Thread Ted Drake
Give you writers a very quick lesson in standards. They apply to writing in
Word just as much as the web.  Don't assume they know about headers,
unordered lists, ordered lists, etc. The more they use these basic
structural elements in their word documents, the quicker your work will be.
It makes sense for everyone.

You could even help them set up a basic style sheet to keep them from
constantly changing fonts and font sizes.

A properly marked up word document will paste into the design view of
Dreamweaver very easily. Usually you will only need to do a search for empty
paragraph tags and you're done.

Dreamweaver will also allow you to select a bunch of paragraphs and hit the
unordered list button to instantly convert them to a list. 

Yes, coders can still use the wysiwyg interfaces.


Ted


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Zulema
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 8:00 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] just sharing the frustration

Samuel/Ted/Jay,

Wow! I will remember all this for the next time, since I do a lot of 
Word-to-HTML converting.

The crazy thing about this one particular Word doc was that it wasn't in 
formatted bulleted lists because it was copy extracted from a PDF we got 
from the client as it seems they didn't have the original copy deck 
anymore I think.

Oh well, live and learn. I'm going to find HTMLTidy (which I had but 
lost on hard drive replace last year) and look up HTML-Kit. I do usually 
copy/paste right into the design view in dreamweaver for simple stuff. 
It really does the trick sometimes, if no one's tried it.

The writers here at work only work in Word because of the Track 
Changes feature. Makes it easy for everyone to know what's been changed.

Thanks again and hugs to all,
Zulema

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Re: [WSG] accessible drill-down into a nested list

2006-02-15 Thread Paul Novitski



Paul Novitski wrote:

Tell me if this would be a better scenario:  When you select a menu 
item, the page reloads with a set of breadcrumbs that spells out 
the history of selected menu items, such as:


Thanks very much, Ian, your response to my posting was exactly the 
kind of feedback I was looking for.  I think you may have mistaken my 
negative example for my recommendation, but I appreciate your remarks 
all the same.


At 02:57 AM 2/13/2006, Ian Anderson wrote:

I think you are correct to be concerned about the issue, but this may
not be the optimal solution. If you consider the requirements of a
screen reader user, their task is one of wading through immense amounts
of irrelevant stuff trying to find the thing of interest at that moment.

What's of most interest at the moment you're describing is hearing the
*new* options that are now available.

...

That's precisely the issue I'm aiming to address:  boiling the repeat 
information down to the bare minimum (menu selection breadcrumbs to 
tell you where you are in the menu tree) followed by the new options 
opened up by your most recent selection -- NOT repeating the whole 
damn menu each time, except perhaps at the bottom of markup where it 
can be read at the user's discretion.


Here's what I'm envisioning:
___

[Site title (home page link)]
[Page title]

[link to complete navigation menu below]

[list of menu breadcrumbs (links):
[selection from 1st level menu]
[selection from 2nd level menu]
...
]

[list of new options (links)]

[page content]

[complete navigation menu]
___

Warm regards,
Paul

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RE: [WSG] just sharing the frustration

2006-02-15 Thread Jon Gunderson
Another tool is a HTML+CSS conversion Wizard for Microsoft
Documents.  It converts word, powepoint and excel charts to
valid xhtml+css and also supports accessibility to people with
disabilities.

http://www.accessiblewizards.uiuc.edu/

Jon


 Original message 
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 08:31:25 -0800
From: Ted Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
Subject: RE: [WSG] just sharing the frustration  
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org

Give you writers a very quick lesson in standards. They apply
to writing in
Word just as much as the web.  Don't assume they know about
headers,
unordered lists, ordered lists, etc. The more they use these
basic
structural elements in their word documents, the quicker your
work will be.
It makes sense for everyone.

You could even help them set up a basic style sheet to keep
them from
constantly changing fonts and font sizes.

A properly marked up word document will paste into the design
view of
Dreamweaver very easily. Usually you will only need to do a
search for empty
paragraph tags and you're done.

Dreamweaver will also allow you to select a bunch of
paragraphs and hit the
unordered list button to instantly convert them to a list. 

Yes, coders can still use the wysiwyg interfaces.


Ted


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Zulema
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 8:00 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] just sharing the frustration

Samuel/Ted/Jay,

Wow! I will remember all this for the next time, since I do a
lot of 
Word-to-HTML converting.

The crazy thing about this one particular Word doc was that
it wasn't in 
formatted bulleted lists because it was copy extracted from a
PDF we got 
from the client as it seems they didn't have the original
copy deck 
anymore I think.

Oh well, live and learn. I'm going to find HTMLTidy (which I
had but 
lost on hard drive replace last year) and look up HTML-Kit. I
do usually 
copy/paste right into the design view in dreamweaver for
simple stuff. 
It really does the trick sometimes, if no one's tried it.

The writers here at work only work in Word because of the Track 
Changes feature. Makes it easy for everyone to know what's
been changed.

Thanks again and hugs to all,
Zulema

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Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
Director of IT Accessibility Services
Campus Information Technologies and Educational Services (CITES)
and 
Coordinator of Assistive Communication and Information Technology
Disability Resources and Education Services (DRES)

Voice: (217) 244-5870
Fax: (217) 333-0248
Cell: (217) 714-6313

E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

WWW: http://cita.rehab.uiuc.edu/
WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/


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Re: [WSG] Mac Update

2006-02-15 Thread Jan Brasna

- Safari rendering of web pages
This may have broken/fixed websites that you are responsible for.


This looks like a minor update (even Saft didn't scream for an update) 
and anyone using WebKits for testing purposes should not be surprised.


--
Jan Brasna :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com | www.wdnews.net
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Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Terrence Wood


Al Sparber:
I think you raise a very valid point. People who rely on a web site 
to make money tend to have a much different view of such things and 
use much different criteria to judge the merits of various techniques.


Nice pun.

The usually reason cited in support of new windows for money makers is 
that they improve conversion. However, AFAIK there is no evidence to 
support this, and in all the literature I have read (outside of 
opinions expressed in  mailing lists) I am yet to come across a 
recommendation (with proof) that popping new windows is a good practice 
to improve conversion. There are examples that recommend against it, 
including one from an e-marketeer.


I think the concept of opening new windows belongs in the same bin as 
the three click rule and the magic number seven (not related to you 
in any way Al).


It is far easier for a user to open a new window when required, than to 
circumvent new windows from opening when they're not wanted.



kind regards
Terrence Wood.

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Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Christian Montoya
On 2/15/06, Al Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 From: Ric Raftis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  For commercial
  sites, I ALWAYS open a new blank window on a link.  I do however
  advise users that this will happen and that they only have to close
  the new window to return to my site.  From a marketing standpoint,
  why would you want to be showing people the door and then pushing
  them out into the street?

 I think you raise a very valid point. People who rely on a web site
 to make money tend to have a much different view of such things and
 use much different criteria to judge the merits of various techniques.
 That said, I have maintained for a long time that Javascript, with a
 return false, is the best way to open a new window and we've been
 doing it that way for years. The W3C, however, does need to get a bit
 more mindful of the commercial side of the Web. Who knows, frames
 might one day become the tool they should have been all along, if the
 W3C develops logical specifications :-)

Maybe, but this is just another example of how marketers try to
control the browsing experience. Things have to look a specific way,
behave a specific way, etc... but there isn't any proof that this is
good for business. Popups are a usability problem, in that they break
the back button and they result in a lot of windows that have to be
closed, and these usability issues annoy users. From a marketing
standpoint, do you really want to annoy users? Sure, they might be
used to this kind of behavior, but it doesn't mean they like it, just
like they might be used to tiny text 760px width sites with pointless
flash content, but still find it annoying.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com
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Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Lachlan Hunt

Designer wrote:
I'm surprised at your comment that the number of windows is being 
reduced these days - have you seen Dreamweaver lately?


Dreamweaver has a nice tabbed interface, I'm not sure what you mean.

 Flash 7? 


No, I don't use flash.


Photoshop?


I find photoshop's use of windows annoying, it would help a lot if all 
the little tool windows would actually dock together in one manageable 
group.


I find it impossible to work on a lot of these graphics 
programs without two monitors on the go!


And you don't consider that evidence against the use of so many windows?

Incidentally, preview pane: surely, having something appear in the 
preview pane is the same as opening it?


Yes, it is.  But it doesn't appear in the preview pane until I select 
it, but even if I do, it is 100% safe for me.


And opening mail is a really 
good way to set a virus free.


I'm well aware that there are/have been major security holes in Outlook 
that allow malicious software to run simply by reading e-mail, but this 
is impossible to do in Thunderbird (or any other decent mail client, for 
that matter) in plain text mode, and I know of absolutely no security 
holes even in HTML mode, which I'm rarely in anyway.



Looking at the subject, who it's from etc and deciding whether to
read it or bin it is much more secure as far as I can see.


True, and the few that aren't picked up by my junk filter get manually 
marked as junk before I read them.  But even if I did open them, it 
would still be completely safe.


--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/
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Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Lachlan Hunt

Jona Decker wrote:

Lachlan Hunt wrote:

For what reason are they annoying?  You can't just say something is
annoying because you think something else is better, you have explain
what it is about it that is annoying, and perhaps the issue could be
addressed to improve the method without resorting to popups.


If the viewport isn't the right size you do not see 
this expanded text. So you click on the help question mark, and
seemingly nothing happens. 


The only way I could replicate this in the demo page was by resizing my 
window so that the the text box and help button were at the bottom of 
the viewport with nothing visible below them.  It seems strange that you 
wouldn't have scrolled the page up nut even then, the scrollbar clearly 
resized when I clicked it, indicating that I need to scroll down.


I know it's not perfect, but it wouldn't be hard to solve this problem, 
here's a few quick ideas.  (I'm sure there's many other possibilities)

* A script could scroll the page a little (if required).
* The icon could change from a question mark to a down arrow, pointing 
to the help.

* The help could be positioned beside the field, rather than below.

--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/
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Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Al Sparber

From: Terrence Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The usually reason cited in support of new windows for money makers 
is that they improve conversion. However, AFAIK there is no 
evidence to support this, and in all the literature I have read 
(outside of opinions expressed in  mailing lists) I am yet to come 
across a recommendation (with proof) that popping new windows is a 
good practice to improve conversion. There are examples that 
recommend against it, including one from an e-marketeer.


You might be right about new windows being a fiscal non-issue when 
examined or tested. We do have experience with some frameset impact, 
that are downright interesting. 



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Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Al Sparber

Christian Montoya wrote:

On 2/15/06, Al Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


From: Ric Raftis [EMAIL PROTECTED]

For commercial
sites, I ALWAYS open a new blank window on a link.  I do however
advise users that this will happen and that they only have to 
close
the new window to return to my site.  From a marketing 
standpoint,

why would you want to be showing people the door and then pushing
them out into the street?


I think you raise a very valid point. People who rely on a web 
site

to make money tend to have a much different view of such things and
use much different criteria to judge the merits of various
techniques. That said, I have maintained for a long time that
Javascript, with a return false, is the best way to open a new
window and we've been doing it that way for years. The W3C, 
however,

does need to get a bit more mindful of the commercial side of the
Web. Who knows, frames might one day become the tool they should
have been all along, if the W3C develops logical specifications :-)


Maybe, but this is just another example of how marketers try to
control the browsing experience. Things have to look a specific way,
behave a specific way, etc... but there isn't any proof that this is
good for business. Popups are a usability problem, in that they 
break

the back button and they result in a lot of windows that have to be
closed.


You're pre-supposing. If popup windows are scripted you reuse the same 
window object over and over. You can never have more than one open. 
Your statement is only true if the target attribute is used.



--
Al Sparber
PVII
http://www.projectseven.com

Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling
mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that 
repairs

are scheduled for next Tuesday.




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[WSG] Font size menu

2006-02-15 Thread Darren West
Evening groupHas anyone got any suggestions as to how I would mark up a font size menu, for example:pFont size:/pol liA/li liA/li liA/li
/olWith font sizes defined ever larger on the list items as a visual indication and the ordered list from an accessible unstyled point of view.Daz


RE: [WSG] Font size menu

2006-02-15 Thread Ted Drake








Why an ordered list?

Regardless of semantic purposes, you may
come across some cross-browser compatibility issues if you are doing any kind
of image replacement or background images. I would go with an unordered list as
you dont need to go to the smallest size before getting to the medium
and then largest size. 

Or drum roll please. Use my
swiss army knife, the definition list

Dt  font sizes

Dd  small

Dd  medium

dd- large.



It could happen!



Ted

www.tdrake.net











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Darren West
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006
1:58 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Font size menu





Evening group

Has anyone got any suggestions as to how I would mark up a font size menu, for
example:

pFont size:/p
ol
 liA/li
 liA/li
 liA/li 
/ol

With font sizes defined ever larger on the list items as a visual indication
and the ordered list from an accessible unstyled point of view.

Daz








Re: [WSG] Font size menu

2006-02-15 Thread Darren West
Cheers Ted!Even as I read ;-)What are the browser issues with ol's? I would go and research but I gotta get this project out the door by Friday :-oAs an unordered list would it not loose meaning especially if I signfy the choices visually using the same letter A? I could always use em for the current choice.
DazOn 15/02/06, Ted Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:















Why an ordered list?

Regardless of semantic purposes, you may
come across some cross-browser compatibility issues if you are doing any kind
of image replacement or background images. I would go with an unordered list as
you don't need to go to the smallest size before getting to the medium
and then largest size. 

Or… drum roll please…. Use my
swiss army knife, the definition list

Dt – font sizes

Dd – small

Dd – medium

dd- large.



It could happen!



Ted

www.tdrake.net












From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of Darren West
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006
1:58 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Font size menu





Evening group

Has anyone got any suggestions as to how I would mark up a font size menu, for
example:

pFont size:/p
ol
 liA/li
 liA/li
 liA/li 
/ol

With font sizes defined ever larger on the list items as a visual indication
and the ordered list from an accessible unstyled point of view.

Daz










Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Serdar Kılıç
When I first started my weblog all internal links had no target
attribute thereby browsing within my site was within a single window.
Any offsite links were brought up in a new window, a window for each
link clicked.

The way *I* browse some sites is how I built my site. For example, if
I visit some other weblog and they have a links of the day feature I
really want to visit these sites individually at the same time,
thereby  opening them in new windows. The problem is is that there are
no visual clues whether or not a link will open in that window or a
new one (I'm not a fan of little icons).

There's plenty of food for thought in this thread, and I appreciate
everyone's responses.

--
Cheers,
Serdar Kilic
http://weblog.kilic.net/
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RE: [WSG] Font size menu

2006-02-15 Thread Ted Drake








Its been a while since Ive messed with
it. But as I remember, if you use list-style-type:none on an ol, you can get
some odd positioning in IE6. Does anyone else remember this bug?



Are you using html or xhtml? If html, wrap
the a in smalla/small biga/big

Personally, I dont like those tags but I
know others do.

You can then use CSS to define the look of
those letters

ted











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darren West
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006
2:38 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Font size menu





Cheers Ted!

Even as I read ;-)

What are the browser issues with ol's? I would go and research but I gotta get
this project out the door by Friday :-o

As an unordered list would it not loose meaning especially if I signfy the choices
visually using the same letter A? I could always use em for the current
choice. 

Daz



On 15/02/06, Ted
Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:



Why an ordered list?

Regardless of semantic purposes, you may come across some
cross-browser compatibility issues if you are doing any kind of image
replacement or background images. I would go with an unordered list as you
don't need to go to the smallest size before getting to the medium and then
largest size. 

Or drum roll please. Use my swiss army knife, the
definition list

Dt  font sizes

Dd  small

Dd  medium

dd- large.



It could happen!



Ted

www.tdrake.net












From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On Behalf Of Darren West
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006
1:58 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Font size menu







Evening
group

Has anyone got any suggestions as to how I would mark up a font size menu, for
example:

pFont size:/p
ol
 liA/li
 liA/li
 liA/li 
/ol

With font sizes defined ever larger on the list items as a visual indication
and the ordered list from an accessible unstyled point of view.

Daz


















Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Kevin Futter
On 15/2/06 6:57 PM, Lachlan Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Bert Doorn wrote:
 Serdar Kýlýç wrote:
 How does one open a new window with a 4.01 Strict DOCTYPE and have it
 be valid? For my weblog I ran the w3 validator and it complained that
 there is no attribute called target
 
 The users!  Please, won't somebody think of the *users*!
 
 Many users hate popup windows.  There are no valid use-cases or reasons
 for opening a popup window, don't do it.  If you think you have one, I'd
 like to hear it, but know this: I've heard many excuses over the years
 (some more often than others) but every single one of them has been
 flawed in some way.

Yes, in fact I do have one. For a couple of sites I do for musicians, I open
a Flash-based music player in a new window - a small pop-up. Why? Because if
you embed the music player in the page and begin to play a song, and then
navigate to a different page or website, you lose the entire show. My choice
was to put it in a frame - which I did do for a while - or open a new
window. I decided that the small pop-up was the lesser of two evils, as the
other choice required changing the structural approach of the entire
website. An additional benefit of the pop-up not afforded by frames is that
the music player is still available even when the user chooses to leave the
site.

-- 
Kevin Futter
Webmaster, St. Bernard's College
http://www.sbc.melb.catholic.edu.au/



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Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Terrence Wood

Lachlan Hunt:

If the viewport isn't the right size...seemingly nothing happens.
The only way I could replicate this in the demo page was by resizing 
my window so that the the text box and help button were at the bottom 
of the viewport with nothing visible below them.
This is a valid usability concern and your observation is exactly how 
it manifests itself. I mentioned the above scenario on the recent FAQ 
thread which discussed toggled screen elements.


Al Sparber:
If popup windows are scripted you reuse the same window object over 
and over. You can never have more than one open. Your statement is 
only true if the target attribute is used.


Doesn't this present yet another usability problem where you might open 
a link in the window.object over the top of a link the user has decided 
to keep but has returned to your page to follow other links (the 
original reason for popping a window)?


You might be right about new windows being a fiscal non-issue when 
examined or tested. We do have experience with some frameset impact, 
that are downright interesting.
Would that revolve around targeting a frame (necessary for a 
traditional frameset implementation), not necessarily targeting new 
windows?


kind regards
Terrence Wood.

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Re: [WSG] Font size menu

2006-02-15 Thread Darren West
Thanks for the pointer :-)XHTML1.0 Strict, can I use smallbig? not come across them before.Had a go for the old definition list but it screws up my font sizes for some reason, I can feel a coffee coming on.
Quick off topic question: is the census of opinion to lop off the quoted text or leave it to the email client?DazOn 15/02/06, Ted Drake
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:














It's been a while since I've messed with
it. But as I remember, if you use list-style-type:none on an ol, you can get
some odd positioning in IE6. Does anyone else remember this bug?



Are you using html or xhtml? If html, wrap
the a in smalla/small biga/big

Personally, I don't like those tags but I
know others do.

You can then use CSS to define the look of
those letters

ted











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Darren West
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006
2:38 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Font size menu





Cheers Ted!

Even as I read ;-)

What are the browser issues with ol's? I would go and research but I gotta get
this project out the door by Friday :-o

As an unordered list would it not loose meaning especially if I signfy the choices
visually using the same letter A? I could always use em for the current
choice. 

Daz



On 15/02/06, Ted
Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:



Why an ordered list?

Regardless of semantic purposes, you may come across some
cross-browser compatibility issues if you are doing any kind of image
replacement or background images. I would go with an unordered list as you
don't need to go to the smallest size before getting to the medium and then
largest size. 

Or… drum roll please…. Use my swiss army knife, the
definition list

Dt – font sizes

Dd – small

Dd – medium

dd- large.



It could happen!



Ted

www.tdrake.net












From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On Behalf Of Darren West
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006
1:58 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Font size menu







Evening
group

Has anyone got any suggestions as to how I would mark up a font size menu, for
example:

pFont size:/p
ol
 liA/li
 liA/li
 liA/li 
/ol

With font sizes defined ever larger on the list items as a visual indication
and the ordered list from an accessible unstyled point of view.

Daz




















Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Terrence Wood


Serdar Kılıç:


The way *I* browse some sites is how I built my site.


Important point: that is your browsing habit. You *can* open new 
windows if *you* want or prefer it. Shouldn't you give your users the 
same degree of freedom over their browsing experience.


kind regards
Terrence Wood.
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[WSG] DL for Form display misaligning in IE/Win

2006-02-15 Thread Seona Bellamy
Hi guys,

I've been using this technique for styling DLs to take my forms:
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/definition/dl-table-display.htm

Everything was working fine, I though, but I've just had it pointed out
to me that one of the forms is acting oddly. Instead of aligning nicely
with their respective DTs like they do everywhere else, the DDs are
shifting up to sit directly under the DD above. This means that the
form isn't looking logical, since there's a disassociation between the
label and the field.

Can someone please have a look and tell me why this is happening? I'm
really confused, especially since other forms in the site (which are
using the same class) are working just fine.

Page: http://staging.renovate.com.au/classified/index.cfm
CSS: http://staging.renovate.com.au/_resources/css/cont_Default.css

Cheers,

Seona.


Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Lachlan Hunt

Kevin Futter wrote:

On 15/2/06 6:57 PM, Lachlan Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Many users hate popup windows.  There are no valid use-cases or reasons 
for opening a popup window, don't do it.  If you think you have one, I'd 
like to hear it, but know this: I've heard many excuses over the years 
(some more often than others) but every single one of them has been 
flawed in some way.


Yes, in fact I do have one. For a couple of sites I do for musicians, I open 
a Flash-based music player in a new window - a small pop-up. Why? Because if 
you embed the music player in the page and begin to play a song, and then 
navigate to a different page or website, you lose the entire show.


I'm not convinced.  There is no reason why the user can't choose to open 
it in a new window/tab for themselves.  Even if they don't, they can 
continue navigating elsewhere in a different window/tab.  Besides, you 
shouldn't need to write your own flash-based music player.  You could 
provide the song in an downloadable MP3 or a streaming audio format and 
let them play it in their own media player.


--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/


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Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Lachlan Hunt

Serdar Kılıç wrote:
When I first started my weblog all internal links had no target 
attribute thereby browsing within my site was within a single window. 
Any offsite links were brought up in a new window, a window for each 
link clicked.


The way *I* browse some sites is how I built my site.


But you need to remember that you're not building your site for you. 
You're building it for *your visitors*.  For every user, there is only 
one person can decide if they want a new window: themselves!


The problem is is that there are no visual clues whether or not a 
link will open in that window or a new one (I'm not a fan of little icons).


Which is why shouldn't rely on a author to a) open a window for you if 
you want one, or b) not open a window if you don't want one.  You can 
use a user stylesheet to indicate the presence of a target attribute:


a[target] { cursor: crosshair; }

But I think the best option is to completely disable the target 
attribute to prevent the author from interfering with your decision and 
make it yourself, every single time.  You cannot possibly rely on the 
author to make the right decision for you, because every user is different.


--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/


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Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Stephen Stagg


But I think the best option is to completely disable the target  
attribute to prevent the author from interfering with your decision  
and make it yourself, every single time.  You cannot possibly rely  
on the author to make the right decision for you, because every  
user is different.




Superficially, I agree with you, it is better to let the user decide  
[see also the PDF content-type threads].  However in practice, it is  
not sensible to assume that a user will be able to configure their  
browser, or even to make an intelligent decision on which types of  
links should behave in particular ways.It would be like arguing  
not to send impoverished farmers a plough, but to send them wood,  
metal and an angle-grinder to let them optimize the product for their  
soil.  [p.s. I know it's a slightly flawed analogy but I think it  
gets my point across]


Unless every user to your site is a geek, you have to assume that 90%  
of visitors will not be aware of User Style-sheets or even what a  
style-sheet(Bed linen made of silk?) is.


Interestingly, I have been involved in a similar argument wrt. GIMP  
development, GIMP is very difficult to use in MS Windows because of  
all the windows it creates that have to interact with each other.   
The Die-Hard Unix Hax0rs say that this is correct and the application  
[Insert relevant application] should leave all the window management  
up to the window manager, and if the Windows XP window manager isn't  
good enough, then switch to Linux.  The more down-to-earth MS Windows  
users on the list were arguing that they're stuck with a crappy  
Window Manager so perhaps the Hax0rs might be a bit more understanding.


Perhaps we need browsers with easy settings allowing you to over-ride  
the site-specific link behaviors, this way, authors could suggest a  
default action for a link and then people who passionately care about  
their windows can override it, result; everyone happy.  This must be  
a fairly simple thing to implement, no?  IIRC, Firefox already has an  
'open all windows as new tab' option somewhere,


Stephen
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Re: [WSG] just sharing the frustration

2006-02-15 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Hope Stewart wrote:

The Find And Replace feature in Dreamweaver can also be a huge time saver.


Particularly if you're versed in regular expressions...quick and easy 
way to strip out all the annoying style etc attributes that Word and co 
like to stick into their HTML, e.g.


Find: td[^]*
Replace: td

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
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http://webstandards.org/
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Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Terrence Wood


Stephen Stagg:
browsers with easy settings allowing you to over-ride the 
site-specific link behaviors, this way, authors could suggest a 
default action for a link and then people who passionately care about 
their windows can override it, result; everyone happy.


There is a default action for links - they open in the same window =). 
Users can choose to open them if required. Same result, opposite 
approach.


Not every user really cares about browsers - they are a tool to do a 
specific job, much like pen and paper, or a phone - they want to use it 
and be done with it, not fiddle with endless pref's and options.


Kevin Futter:

I open a Flash-based music player in a new window - a small pop-up.
Pretty sure you should be able to prevent a flash movie from playing 
onload... I accept your point about having persistent music player with 
the caveat that a music site may be a specialist type site for a 
specialist audience - In the same way that I accept flash based 
experiential sites are appropriate for flash designers for example.



kind regards
Terrence Wood.

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Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Terrence Wood


Al Sparber:

Doesn't this present yet another usability problem...

can explain what you mean in a bit more detail.


1. Your links open a new window object 'foo'.
2. User now has two windows: their window with your page, 'foo' with 
external page.
3. User decides to leave 'foo' open because they are interested in the 
page loaded into it, and return to their window to explore your page 
again. Success!! this is the exact behaviour we want from opening new 
windows - it's the marketing argument.

4. User finds another link to explore on your page and clicks the link.
5. The link targets 'foo' and loads a new page into it.

Now we are not only forcing the user to manage two windows, but we are 
also loading all our links into 'foo', which potentially the user may 
not want (if they are expecting to return to some content they have 
left before) or notice.


Phew... it all seems so much more complicated than just using a back 
button =)


kind regards
Terrence Wood.

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RE: [WSG] just sharing the frustration

2006-02-15 Thread Ted Drake
There goes Patrick showing off his regular expression prowess again.

Ted


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 5:01 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] just sharing the frustration

Hope Stewart wrote:
 The Find And Replace feature in Dreamweaver can also be a huge time
saver.

Particularly if you're versed in regular expressions...quick and easy 
way to strip out all the annoying style etc attributes that Word and co 
like to stick into their HTML, e.g.

Find: td[^]*
Replace: td

P
-- 
Patrick H. Lauke
__
 


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Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Christian Montoya
On 2/15/06, Al Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Christian Montoya wrote:
  Maybe, but this is just another example of how marketers try to
  control the browsing experience. Things have to look a specific way,
  behave a specific way, etc... but there isn't any proof that this is
  good for business. Popups are a usability problem, in that they
  break
  the back button and they result in a lot of windows that have to be
  closed.

 You're pre-supposing. If popup windows are scripted you reuse the same
 window object over and over. You can never have more than one open.
 Your statement is only true if the target attribute is used.

I'm not pre-supposing anything. All popup windows break the back
button (popup as in a new window, Javascript or not). When I am done
with the site that pops up, I want to use the back button to get back
to the original site. That is natural web use and popups interfere
with that. I have to close the window to go back, which, like has
already been said, is not as convenient, as the back button is on my
trackball (like a mouse but cooler), while closing a window requires
alt-f4 (two buttons miles apart) or reaching for the X.

Usually at this point I close the popup and back out of the
offending site. But maybe I'm too harsh.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com
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Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Terrence Wood


Al Sparber:
You might be right about new windows being a fiscal non-issue when 
examined or tested. We do have experience with some frameset impact, 
that are downright interesting.



it's our Demo Viewer application. It has an enormous impact on sales.


If I'm not mistaken it reloads a dynamic frameset for each link, so 
window targets don't seem to apply here - it's more a convenient way to 
load the navigation for your product catalogue without having to work 
navigation into each demo page or cause users to pogostick between 
pages (nav then sample then nav etc). I see why it works for you.


Aside: Perhaps the noframe content could point back to the front page 
where there is the option to review each product individually.



kind regards
Terrence Wood.

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Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Al Sparber

From: Terrence Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]

1. Your links open a new window object 'foo'.
2. User now has two windows: their window with your page, 'foo' with 
external page.
3. User decides to leave 'foo' open because they are interested in 
the page loaded into it, and return to their window to explore your 
page again. Success!! this is the exact behaviour we want from 
opening new windows - it's the marketing argument.
4. User finds another link to explore on your page and clicks the 
link.

5. The link targets 'foo' and loads a new page into it.

Now we are not only forcing the user to manage two windows, but we 
are also loading all our links into 'foo', which potentially the 
user may not want (if they are expecting to return to some content 
they have left before) or notice.


Phew... it all seems so much more complicated than just using a back 
button =)


OK. I see. If a developer has all the links, or a lot of the links, on 
a page, open in foo, then that would be very bad. In a real world 
scenario, I would use a popup only to show, for example, an example 
during the course of a tutorial - like on this page:


http://www.projectseven.com/tutorials/navigation/pmm/rootimages/index.htm

--
Al 



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Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Jude Robinson

Lachlan Hunt wrote:


There are no valid use-cases or reasons 
for opening a popup window


Well...there's *one*: http://www.useit.com/alertbox/open_new_windows.html

...but only one :)

Mark Pilgrim wrote a concise little page about popups a few years ago: 
http://tinyurl.com/4c5n8


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Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Terrence Wood

Christian Montoya:

I'm not pre-supposing anything. All popup windows break the back
button (popup as in a new window, Javascript or not). When I am done
with the site that pops up, I want to use the back button to get back
to the original site. That is natural web use and popups interfere
with that. I have to close the window to go back, which, like has
already been said, is not as convenient, as the back button is on my
trackball (like a mouse but cooler), while closing a window requires
alt-f4 (two buttons miles apart) or reaching for the X.


Two words: occams razor.

See: http://www.webdesignfromscratch.com/simplicity.cfm (about halfway 
down)



kind regards
Terrence Wood.

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Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Hope Stewart
On 16/2/06 11:47 AM, Al Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Al Sparber:
 If popup windows are scripted you reuse the same window object over
 and over. You can never have more than one open. Your statement is
 only true if the target attribute is used.
 
 Doesn't this present yet another usability problem where you might
 open a link in the window.object over the top of a link the user has
 decided to keep but has returned to your page to follow other links
 (the original reason for popping a window)?
 
 I'm not sure what you mean - wait.. let me do a quick test and perhaps
 you can explain what you mean in a bit more detail.

I have found some instances where having not only pop-up windows but
multiple pop-ups to be very user-friendly.

For example: I needed to look through about 200 photos of a jazz band on a
professional photographer's website to select about 6 for final use. The
thumbnails were on several pages. Clicking a thumbnail opened an enlargement
with the photo's unique ID number in a separate window without all the
browser's normal toolbars.

By allowing me to have multiple pop-up windows open at the same time, I
could easily go from one thumbnail page to the next and readily compare
several photos side-by-side to choose the preferred ones. I didn't have to
keep track of which thumbnail page they come from, nor did I have to go back
to any of the thumbnail pages I had already viewed to access an enlargement.

Pop-ups have been over-used and abused over the years but there are still
some instances where they can be user-friendly.

Horses for courses.

Hope Stewart



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Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Lachlan Hunt

Jude Robinson wrote:

Lachlan Hunt wrote:


There are no valid use-cases or reasons for opening a popup window


Well...there's *one*: http://www.useit.com/alertbox/open_new_windows.html


No, Jakob is wrong about that one.  I know, it's strage, he's rarely 
wrong about usability issues, but he is in this case.


Browsers and/PDF viewers can be configured in various ways:
* Open PDF within browser (the unfortunate default)
* Save PDF to disk, then open in external application (e.g. PDF 
Download, Firefox extension)

* Load PDF in external application (saving only to temp directory)
* User may not have a PDF plugin installed, and just be prompted to save it.

For anyone without the default setting, forcing a popup window would 
result in new blank window.  For those with the default setting, I'm 
aware of the fact that this has been known to cause problems in older 
versions (incl. crashing), but that is an issue for the browser/PDF 
plugin vendors to address, not each individual site author.


The only information a browser needs is this in the HTTP headers:
  Content-Type: application/pdf

It may help to include that in the type attribute.
  a href=foo.pdf type=application/pdffoo (PDF)/a

But few browsers ever use that attribute by default.  There may be 
extensions that do (I don't know), but CSS can be used to style it or 
JavaScript to do something else with the link to make it obvious to the 
user that the link is to a PDF.


Theoretically, it's possible to interpret that type attribute to mean 
open a new window, and it would seem trivial to write a Firefox 
extension (or Greasemonkey script) to do that.


The important point is that telling the user/browser that the file is a 
PDF should be all that is required for the user/browser to make an 
informed decision about what to do with it.


--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/

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Re: [WSG] CSS Holy Gruel

2006-02-15 Thread Kevin Ross
Thanks very much for the help.On 2/14/06, Al Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
From: Kevin Ross Just wondering, Al... is the _javascript_ public domain ?The Equal Height column script is and you can read more about it here:
http://www.projectseven.com/tutorials/css/pvii_columns/index.htmAlso feel free to use and abuse the little min-width expressions inthe Conditional Comments.--Al SparberPVII
http://www.projectseven.comDesigning with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumblingmountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge thatrepairs are scheduled for next Tuesday.
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Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Al Sparber

From: Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You're pre-supposing. If popup windows are scripted you reuse the 
same

window object over and over. You can never have more than one open.
Your statement is only true if the target attribute is used.


I'm not pre-supposing anything. All popup windows break the back
button (popup as in a new window, Javascript or not). When I am done
with the site that pops up, I want to use the back button to get back
to the original site. That is natural web use and popups interfere
with that. I have to close the window to go back, which, like has
already been said, is not as convenient, as the back button is on my
trackball (like a mouse but cooler), while closing a window requires
alt-f4 (two buttons miles apart) or reaching for the X.

Usually at this point I close the popup and back out of the
offending site. But maybe I'm too harsh.

---

With all due respect, you are making a blanket assessment based on a 
worst case scenario. Having one or two links on a few pages in a site 
that open a single, named popup window containing, for example, sample 
pages for a tutorial in the main window, is a practical use for popup 
windows - at least in the opinion of some folks. I think it might be 
gracious of you to admit that there might be more than one useful 
opinion on this matter.


Thanks.

--
Al Sparber
PVII
http://www.projectseven.com

Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling 
mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that 
repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday.





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RE: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Herrod, Lisa
Lachlan Hunt wrote:
 The users!  Please, won't somebody think of the *users*!

This line reminds me of something from my favourite show when I was a kid:
Fantasy Island. the plane, the plane! :)

Let's just change it here to the users, the users!


Can I kindly suggest you all try some usability testing on each of the sites
you create?

That way you will truly know what the users of your site really think.

Every site is different, every user is different, every demographic varies
from the last.

I once tested a site on a group of novice users where all of the navigation
on a particular page disappeared and was replaced with a flash animation.
The only link back was below the fold. None of them had problems finding it.

Also, I have to say, in testing I've found that users tend to distinguish
between pop-ups used for utilities and external links, and those used for
advertising and other annoying unrelated information. Usually it's only the
latter that is a problem. But again, it depends so much on the individual.


Don't assume anything... whether or not it's best practice.



... and with that I will gallop off on my Clydesdale, another very tall
horse




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RE: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Helen Morgan



Don't assume anything... whether or not it's best practice.


Good points you make here Lisa. If I could pick up on the term best 
practice too. It drives me and my colleagues mad, because people seem to 
use it as an excuse not to think sometimes. We prefer the term better 
practice, and to keep to the horse analogy, I guess it's all horses for 
courses!


Cheers,
Helen  


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Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Lachlan Hunt

Herrod, Lisa wrote:

Lachlan Hunt wrote:

The users!  Please, won't somebody think of the *users*!


This line reminds me of something from my favourite show when I was a kid:
Fantasy Island. the plane, the plane! :)


Actually, it's a slightly misquoted line from Helen Lovejoy in the The 
Simpsons: Won't somebody _please_ think of the children??


Every site is different, every user is different, every demographic varies 
from the last.

...
Don't assume anything... whether or not it's best practice.


Which is exactly why I make no assumptions about the user's browsing 
environment or preferences, and I don't attempt to force new windows 
upon them which they may or may not want - they are free to do as they 
please, without interference.


--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/

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Re: [WSG] just sharing the frustration

2006-02-15 Thread Steve Olive
The easiest way to use HTMLTidy is from within the Firefox browser.  
Once installed have a look at the Extensions you can download to help  
with Web Design. I always add the following extensions:


HTML Validator
TAW3 - Test de Accesibilidad Web
View formatted source
View Rendered Source Chart
Web Developer

These are available for Windows. OS X and Linux versions of Firefox.  
The Web Developer and HTMLTidy extensions can review web pages and  
make/suggest the corrections needed for standards compliance.


Regards,

Steve


On 15/02/2006, at 2:59 PM, Zulema wrote:


Samuel/Ted/Jay,

Wow! I will remember all this for the next time, since I do a lot  
of Word-to-HTML converting.


The crazy thing about this one particular Word doc was that it  
wasn't in formatted bulleted lists because it was copy extracted  
from a PDF we got from the client as it seems they didn't have the  
original copy deck anymore I think.


Oh well, live and learn. I'm going to find HTMLTidy (which I had  
but lost on hard drive replace last year) and look up HTML-Kit. I  
do usually copy/paste right into the design view in dreamweaver for  
simple stuff. It really does the trick sometimes, if no one's tried  
it.


The writers here at work only work in Word because of the Track  
Changes feature. Makes it easy for everyone to know what's been  
changed.


Thanks again and hugs to all,
Zulema

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Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Christian Montoya
On 2/15/06, Al Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 From: Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  You're pre-supposing. If popup windows are scripted you reuse the
  same
  window object over and over. You can never have more than one open.
  Your statement is only true if the target attribute is used.

 I'm not pre-supposing anything. All popup windows break the back
 button (popup as in a new window, Javascript or not). When I am done
 with the site that pops up, I want to use the back button to get back
 to the original site. That is natural web use and popups interfere
 with that. I have to close the window to go back, which, like has
 already been said, is not as convenient, as the back button is on my
 trackball (like a mouse but cooler), while closing a window requires
 alt-f4 (two buttons miles apart) or reaching for the X.

 Usually at this point I close the popup and back out of the
 offending site. But maybe I'm too harsh.

 ---

 With all due respect, you are making a blanket assessment based on a
 worst case scenario. Having one or two links on a few pages in a site
 that open a single, named popup window containing, for example, sample
 pages for a tutorial in the main window, is a practical use for popup
 windows - at least in the opinion of some folks. I think it might be
 gracious of you to admit that there might be more than one useful
 opinion on this matter.

I would, if you weren't misunderstanding me. I am referring to,
specifically, the case of opening external sites from a weblog, or
opening external sites on a business page. I haven't said anything
about the help links, and I do think Javascript is better than having
the help on another page. I think popups are only reasonable for media
such as music players, photos, etc.

And they are definitely bad for PDFs... first a window opens and then
the PDF loads in its own program... very annoying.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.com ... rdpdesign.com ... cssliquid.com
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Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

2006-02-15 Thread Rick Faaberg
 All popup windows break the back
 button (popup as in a new window, Javascript or not).

So if you are 12 clicks into the new site in the original window, you're
fine with clicking back 12 times to get back to the original site?

Wouldn't close window in the new window (with the 12 clicks inside) be
much quicker?

Rick Faaberg

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