Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout
Medyk, You clearly dont understand forms, i can tell by the way you said you dont understand what a fieldset is for. Before i go any further, ill say again, follow the standards set. In my article i quoted a quote from W3C that says, tables should not be used for layout purposes but for tabular data. Dont go against the standards, if you follow them you will produce better web pages, the are there for a reason. A fieldset is used for grouping related for controls and labels. For example, if you had a form that requests, Personal Information, Membership Info and Credit Card Details you wouldnt put all these in the same fieldset. Instead you would create 3 fieldset for Personal Info, Member Info and Credit Card Details. Regards On 5/24/07, Mariusz Nowak [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jamie Collins wrote: http://www.viberate.co.uk/ws/styling-a-form/styling-a-form.html http://www.viberate.co.uk/ws/styling-a-form/styling-a-form.html I must say that I disagree with some points stated in these article, shared also with stronger tone in previous posts (that is Tables for forms = NO, DL for forms = No). First, what is form really? I understand it as an interaction layer that allows user to send his input to server - this layer is transparent to actual structure layer and vice versa. Ideally internal form structure should be same as if there wasn't a form layer at all (values of inputs and labels will stay as text nodes) - and this is the way I'm thinking when I'm composing a form. Using form doesn't exclude use of list or table - it's the other way - form content may be ordered list, may be definition list, may be a table or the other and we should use most appropriate element for the content (thinking as if there wasn't form layer). Mind that form by specs can contain only block elements - it really means that spec authors perceived form as a one or more block elements - form element is just indication for interaction layer - real structure of form is those block elements inside - I know that this point of view might controversial for some - the biggest source of confusion is that browsers do not treat form element as a transparent layer but as a part of structure - you can add padding, width border etc - it feels like part of a structure. However after all I think it's much more logical to think of form as of other transparent layer and it's definitely good to avoid any styling of it (we're already forced to use block elements inside and styling them should do the job anyway). Treating it as transparent makes job easier - moving form closures around doesn't affect appearance of page - recently I've had a call from client which wanted to move form closures - it can be pain if you have some presentational css stuff tied to it - mind that it's totally unlikely that client would request moving closures of *real* structure element - that should make a good hint ;-) Other thing - It is said in specs that its children can be ul, ol, table etc. If writers of specs will think of form as another thing aside to lists and tables they will state that form can only have e.g. fieldset elements as its children (like ul can have only li elements, tbody tr etc.) but they didn't. The only structural (and controversial) element (not really part of form interaction layer) that can be used only with forms is fieldset ..which is to me a weak point of HTML 4.0. What is fieldset really? It's a section and I think it could be very useful also when not using a form at all - after all in XHTML 2.0 they came up with section element ;) Thanks. Medyk -- Mariusz Nowak Skype: mariuszn3 AIM: mariuszn3 http://www.medikoo.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Site Check - Streaming Media
Steve Olive wrote: On Tue, 22 May 2007 11:19:46 pm Hassan Schroeder wrote: Parker, Simi (DPS) wrote: I am investigating some potential issues with our live broadcasting service and if you use an O/S / browser / media player configuration other than Windows / Internet Explorer / Windows Media player, I would really appreciate your feedback and/or assistance. I would particularly welcome feedback from Macintosh and Linux users. Unsurprisingly, I get a black screen with '(no video)' message in the popup on SuSE 10 Linux/Firefox; Konqueror gives me an alert: No plugin found for 'Microsoft Media'. Do you want to download one from www.microsoft.com? Total no-go. HTH! I get nothing displayed but the file name starting to downlaod/stream in the MPlayer plugin for Firefox 2.0.0.3. This is using Ubuntu 7.04 with the w32codec package installed, so the file format is the problem on Linux. Hi Simi, You might like to explore using an open format for streaming video. Proprietary/licensed formats will be a problem for linux - free open source software. OGG plugins are available for Linux and MSWindows and Quicktime - so probably also MACs To find out more about this check out the slides (including links and sample clips) at http://www.ramin.com.au/linux/acs-os-sig.html Marghanita -- Marghanita da Cruz http://www.ramin.com.au/ Telephone: 0414-869202 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] stand alone blog software
I *want* to like Drupal. I really do. When it's working, it's a beautiful thing. But I've recently had a lot of trouble installing the recent version. So much trouble that I gave up on it :( Lucien. Lucien Stals [EMAIL PROTECTED] Raine [EMAIL PROTECTED] 24/05/07 3:30 PM I love WordPress. I recently tried to install Drupal but didn't have LOCK table permissions on my server that is required for installation. ByteDreams wrote: http://www.drupal.org Can be as simple or as complex as you want it to be. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Swinburne University of Technology CRICOS Provider Code: 00111D NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended only for the use of the addressee. They may contain information that is privileged or protected by copyright. If you are not the intended recipient, any dissemination, distribution, printing, copying or use is strictly prohibited. The University does not warrant that this e-mail and any attachments are secure and there is also a risk that it may be corrupted in transmission. It is your responsibility to check any attachments for viruses or defects before opening them. If you have received this transmission in error, please contact us on +61 3 9214 8000 and delete it immediately from your system. We do not accept liability in connection with computer virus, data corruption, delay, interruption, unauthorised access or unauthorised amendment. Please consider the environment before printing this email. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Australian University webpage reviews and WANAU membership
Tim wrote: For some reason my membership of WANAU has been lost, ignored or denied by the WANAU moderator. I get the impression that WANAU is a university thing, and perhaps membership is restricted to university people (staff and students, etc). You should take that up with WANAU themselves. My emails to Dey Alexander to comment on this research have received no reply. I have spent a few hundred hours of my time unfunded to produce a webpage that is highly relevant to WANAU's objectives of promoting accessibility in Australian University websites. I understand that you undertook this research at your behest rather than WANAU's. If they choose to ignore it, then that is their decision. I also offer coding suggestions, but this research has so far been ignored or lost on WANAU, but it already has the attention of many concerned IT academics across Australia, a few with negative comments like the Australian Catholic University, but also many positive comments. I think WANAU's aim is to attempt change through encouragement rather than criticism. Catching more flies with honey. I think they are looking to support people, rather than put down their efforts. Investigate ways to positively effect web accessibility across the university sector. http://www.wanau.org/about/ Note the 'positively'. It concludes that 64% of Australian University sites pass Priority One accessibility tests which is contrary to Dey Alexanders 2003 report that 98% of sites failed accessibility tests. Your result does not necessarily negate Dey Alexander's result, which is four years old. A lot can happen in four years. Where are WANAU's real interests? Selling training courses based on old and inaccurate claims that 98% of Australian University sites are inaccessible without considering new research in not academic excellence, it may even breach the Trade Practices Act for misleading claims. I can see no example of how they are doing that. The reference to the paper is on his own site, not WANAU's. It is used as an example of the research that they do, along with other papers, which I find appropriate. It's good that you want to contribute. My advice is find out how you can contribute in a way that leads to acceptance of your work. For example, if you have tertiary qualifications, aim for post-grad work. Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Mocking up web interfaces
Notepad. Best, editpad - but I'm a developer normally dealing with code rather than visual design - *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] stand alone blog software
I *want* to like Drupal. I really do. same here When it's working, it's a beautiful thing. But I've recently had a lot of trouble installing the recent version. So much trouble that I gave up on it :( I gave up because it was too slow on a high-traffic site on a busy shared server where the bottleneck is the mysql queue. .. way too many mysql statements run to do anything... and using mysql for caching is a very bad idea - slows it down even more. drupal is not unique there ... almost every off-the-shelf cms I've looked at has the same problem. I'm hoping the new version is better but haven't tried it yet. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout
You put: Using form doesn't exclude use of list or table To me thats telling me 'oh yes you can use a table or list' The only time i said a table is fine forms is if its a dynamic spreadsheet or a calander. Ive demonstrated the use of forms without tables, and when i get time i will create an article that focuses on styling the forms and show you what can be achived. Its lack of knowledge that forces people to create tables to contain there forms for general layout purposes. The saying goes again, a table is for tabular data, and if the tablular data needs a form (like a spreadsheet) then in this case it would be fine to use. I cant see any use for a list to be used to contain form data. On 5/24/07, Mariusz Nowak [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jamie, Before i go any further, ill say again, follow the standards set. In my article i quoted a quote from W3C that says, tables should not be used for layout purposes but for tabular data. I think you totally misunderstood my point. Where in my post I suggest that it's ok to use tables for layout purposes? And other way - where it is written in specs that forms cannot contain tabular data? I would never use tables for anything else as for tabular data.. and it may happen that form constitutes tabular data. In such case I think we should use table element to structure that. A fieldset is used for grouping related for controls and labels. Where did I wrote it's other way? :) Fieldset is separate section of form controls that's what it is. Medyk -- Mariusz Nowak Skype: mariuszn3 AIM: mariuszn3 http://www.medikoo.com http://www.medikoo.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Australian University webpage reviews and WANAU membership
No it is not a University only thing The network is an informal group of university people who share a common interest in the network's objectives. Our members include: * disability support staff * technical staff * web and instructional designers * academics and teaching staff * administrators and policy officers * students I have taken this up with WANAU, no reply. The WANAU coursers have been promoted within the context of old out-of-date research which has not been replicated by anyone else. Scientific method requires others to verify results, the 2003 result reported is not supported by other research or my research. If it is WANAU's decision to ignore a result then they are not worthy to call themselves academics within any scientific framework where replication is an essential element of scientific research. One swallow does not a summer make, one study by Fleishman and Ponds does not show that cold fusion is a reality. If this argument is taken to the logical extreme, do you say it is fine to ignore Galilleo's research showing the earth is moving around the sun because the Church did not commission of approve of his research. Their decision to ignore it and promote a figure that 98% of sites are accessible is preposterous and nscientific. Stalinist Russia ignored Mendel's research on genetics and followed Lamark's ideas of acquired characteristics being inheirited and the result was famine. Here WANAU have a commercial interest, the courses are $495 dollars a head and I have had the figure quoted to me from specific academics who I could name that Dey's figure of 98% gave them something to work with, but it is incorrect and misleading to use such a figure. Any lawyers can point you out the Trade Practice Act about misleading advertising and deceptive conduct, I do not have the time, but I have studied law as well as psychological research methods. Encouragement rather than criticism, did you see the coding suggestions? I intended to help the poor things, academics at any University with integrity have no right to be so fickle and fragile that they cannot accept constructive criticism aimed at making improvements. Did you mean Catching bees with honey, flies are attracted to shit. Have you heard of negative reinforcement when the rat in the maze takes the wrong turn and receives a shock or the child putting a knife in the toaster receives a life saving token smack, Skinnerian or Pavlovian psychology also involves negative consequences. In this case I can see the supposed Emperor has no clothes and I will not remain silent about it. It is a positive encouraging webpage that three institutions have so far benefited from in tangible ways to improve their code. It most certainly does negate the currency of Dey Alexander's 2003 research which has not been recently replicated, it is impossible to tell from her paper which errors are in which University pages, it is old fashioned pen and paper style of research inappropriate for an electronic medium about websites which exist now and can be tested everyday. My page allows anyone else to verify my results, replication replication, not individual opinions with commercial interests. I do not care if my research is not accepted by WANAU, they can shoot themselves in the foot by ignoring it. I care that it has scientific merit which seems to be of little concern to WANAU. My research enables others to replicate my results and perhaps benefit from my coding suggestions, try and replicate Dey's research, then try and replicate my research and tell me that I am just being subjective or that WANAU representing Universities can be so arrogant as to ignored valid research. TERTIARY QUALIFICATIONS, that is totally irrelevant to the quality of any research. I have a post graduate Diploma in Applied Social Psychological research, not that that is relevant, it is academic snobbery to ignore something unless professor x from institute y said it. So Dey is an academic and I am not listened to unless I have academic credibility, play the ball and not the man to use the Aussie rules parlance. If I have tertiary qualifications and what if I don't have any? I would not want to study IT or web design at Swinburne or RMIT, while they run around the country selling courses in web design for $495. The Australian education framework is based at least in TAFE on Competency based training, I do not mean to offend some great teachers but sometimes those who can do and those who cannot teach. http://www.hereticpress.com/Dogstar/Resume/TJAResume.html http://www.hereticpress.com/Dogstar/Resume/Academic.html I really could not care less what academic qualifications anyone has, the logic of what they say and the quality of their research is far more important than intellectual snobbery which seems to be one of the core issues here. Some real academics from institutes like Melbourne
RE: [WSG] Mocking up web interfaces
I also use Fireworks, primarily as I like the combination of vector and bitmap abilities during the mock-up stages. I too sketch a lot of ideas on paper first. Hi there, Just a quick one - what do people most commonly mock up web site designs in? (Photoshop?) Also, if possible, Linux and GPL or similar would be great!! Cheers, Doug *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Mocking up web interfaces
On 24 May 2007, at 00:22:42, Douglas Reith wrote: Hi there, Just a quick one - what do people most commonly mock up web site designs in? (Photoshop?) Also, if possible, Linux and GPL or similar would be great!! Cheers, Doug Being Just a Coder, my usual workflow is: 1. Receive Photoshop files created by client's graphic designer, who has no knowledge of web technologies, no understanding of usability, no interest in accessibility, and thinks everything is the same as print media; 2. Tear my hair out whilst ranting and raving about the ignorance and incompetence of these people; 3. Decide that I'm not going to be beaten by these b4st4rd5; 4. Rack my brains for days or weeks working out how to achieve the impossible; 5. Achieve the impossible; 6. Realise that I've learnt or invented a whole load of useful CSS and HTML techniques; 7. GOTO 1. Step 2 had to be toned down considerably when I was working in a studio with the designers, including the owner of the company, but generally this process has worked well for me for several years :-) Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Fitzsimons http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout
Jamie Collins wrote: You put: Using form doesn't exclude use of list or table To me thats telling me 'oh yes you can use a table or list' The only time i said a table is fine forms is if its a dynamic spreadsheet or a calander. Of course you can use table or list within form as this is what form may consist of and (I'm not sure do you realize) you've just said it :) Ive demonstrated the use of forms without tables, and when i get time i will create an article that focuses on styling the forms and show you what can be achived. Its lack of knowledge that forces people to create tables to contain there forms for general layout purposes. Lack of knowledge also makes people to build tables or lists using divs ;-) The saying goes again, a table is for tabular data, and if the tablular data needs a form (like a spreadsheet) then in this case it would be fine to use. I cant see any use for a list to be used to contain form data. What about: Name your 5 favorite movies in order from most liked to less liked (ordered list with input field for each item follows). Medyk -- Mariusz Nowak Skype: mariuszn3 AIM: mariuszn3 http://www.medikoo.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Mocking up web interfaces
Hi all, I have been going through the emails on this topic and I can identify with most of them. Thanks Nick for your thoughts on mocking up web interfaces - it really brightened my day and James for the info on Fireworks, which I hadn't even heard of! Elaine -- Elaine Wildash http://www.webdandy.co.uk http://www.webdandy-access.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nick Fitzsimons Sent: 24 May 2007 12:11 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Mocking up web interfaces On 24 May 2007, at 00:22:42, Douglas Reith wrote: Hi there, Just a quick one - what do people most commonly mock up web site designs in? (Photoshop?) Also, if possible, Linux and GPL or similar would be great!! Cheers, Doug Being Just a Coder, my usual workflow is: 1. Receive Photoshop files created by client's graphic designer, who has no knowledge of web technologies, no understanding of usability, no interest in accessibility, and thinks everything is the same as print media; 2. Tear my hair out whilst ranting and raving about the ignorance and incompetence of these people; 3. Decide that I'm not going to be beaten by these b4st4rd5; 4. Rack my brains for days or weeks working out how to achieve the impossible; 5. Achieve the impossible; 6. Realise that I've learnt or invented a whole load of useful CSS and HTML techniques; 7. GOTO 1. Step 2 had to be toned down considerably when I was working in a studio with the designers, including the owner of the company, but generally this process has worked well for me for several years :-) Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Fitzsimons http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Mocking up web interfaces
David Laakso wrote Notepad. Me too. In my head I establish the looks of the design have a feel for colors, and know of some images, or a good idea of what I want in the end anyway (I can see the final product in my mind's eye), but I don't mock it up. I go right to Notepad and begin the structure. If I did mock it up as an image first, I'd use Fireworks, though. Cheers. Mike Cherim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout
Bottom line is Yes you Can use a Table if its appropriate, but you cannot use a table to layout your form. As for lists, if its a list, the yes you can contain your form in a list. We are talking about people abusing this and using lists and tables when not needed. On 5/24/07, Mariusz Nowak [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jamie Collins wrote: You put: Using form doesn't exclude use of list or table To me thats telling me 'oh yes you can use a table or list' The only time i said a table is fine forms is if its a dynamic spreadsheet or a calander. Of course you can use table or list within form as this is what form may consist of and (I'm not sure do you realize) you've just said it :) Ive demonstrated the use of forms without tables, and when i get time i will create an article that focuses on styling the forms and show you what can be achived. Its lack of knowledge that forces people to create tables to contain there forms for general layout purposes. Lack of knowledge also makes people to build tables or lists using divs ;-) The saying goes again, a table is for tabular data, and if the tablular data needs a form (like a spreadsheet) then in this case it would be fine to use. I cant see any use for a list to be used to contain form data. What about: Name your 5 favorite movies in order from most liked to less liked (ordered list with input field for each item follows). Medyk -- Mariusz Nowak Skype: mariuszn3 AIM: mariuszn3 http://www.medikoo.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout
Mariusz Nowak wrote: And other way - where it is written in specs that forms cannot contain tabular data? I would never use tables for anything else as for tabular data.. and it may happen that form constitutes tabular data. In such case I think we should use table element to structure that. I think may be some confusion, Mariusz, because so far this discussion has been about putting a form in a separate structure such as a table or dl to contain or organize the form, not about putting a structure (like a table) in a form. It's the latter you seem to be talking about. I, too, was a bit confused by your first post because of this. Cheers. Mike Cherim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout
Mike at Green-Beast.com wrote: I think may be some confusion, Mariusz, because so far this discussion has been about putting a form in a separate structure such as a table or dl to contain or organize the form, not about putting a structure (like a table) in a form. It's the latter you seem to be talking about. I, too, was a bit confused by your first post because of this. Yeah probably I went too much from first point of this discussion which indeed was about using tables just to fix presentational issues which it's obviously wrong. However later discussion went too much into point that in general tables and lists in forms are wrong and we should do everything to build form on fieldsets instead - which to me was wrong way in opposite direction.. and this is the issue to which I was responding to. Medyk -- Mariusz Nowak Skype: mariuszn3 AIM: mariuszn3 http://www.medikoo.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Mocking up web interfaces
On Behalf Of Nick Fitzsimons Being Just a Coder, my usual workflow is: 1. Receive Photoshop files created by client's graphic designer, who has no knowledge of web technologies, no understanding of usability, no interest in accessibility, and thinks everything is the same as print media; 2. Tear my hair out whilst ranting and raving about the ignorance and incompetence of these people; 3. Decide that I'm not going to be beaten by these b4st4rd5; 4. Rack my brains for days or weeks working out how to achieve the impossible; 5. Achieve the impossible; 6. Realise that I've learnt or invented a whole load of useful CSS and HTML techniques; 7. GOTO 1. ;-) --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: SPAM-LOW: Re: [WSG] Mocking up web interfaces
First get a feel for the content, play around with different ways of presenting it using a graphics app and or sketching- i use illustrator. The presentation should come naturally from the needs of the content - web standards practices support this way of working. When the illustrator file pops out at me i print them off on some nice glossy photopaper and present these as mockups to the client. I find this safer(most of the time) than putting jpegs online or emailing them because the client could be on 15 inch from aldi'sThe only exception is if there is flash, then i show them a sliced jpeg with flash embedded along with the printouts. hth kvnmcwebn *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout
Mike at Green-Beast.com wrote: For a definition list I could only really come up with three examples: 1) A glossary 2) FAQs 3) An interview transcript (when combined with blockquotes). (All have a sort of QA thing goin' on.) Does a form not have a sort of QA going on then!? I think you gave the best reason to use dl for forms, which I do. I don't use tables for structuring forms because a form is not tabular data (it can be though, in which case i would use a table). I do think most forms can be considered a list of form controlls. If you've worked all the way down this list you'll find the submit button, which is the final step/controll in the list. Best regards, Sander *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] stand alone blog software
I have happily used and hosted Moveable Type ( http://www.sixapart.com/movabletype/) on my small servers for years. The updates when they come out install easily too and had no real learning curve. The templates are easy to customize to compliant, accessible xhtml. Susan On 5/24/07, Michael MD [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I *want* to like Drupal. I really do. same here When it's working, it's a beautiful thing. But I've recently had a lot of trouble installing the recent version. So much trouble that I gave up on it :( I gave up because it was too slow on a high-traffic site on a busy shared server where the bottleneck is the mysql queue. .. way too many mysql statements run to do anything... and using mysql for caching is a very bad idea - slows it down even more. drupal is not unique there ... almost every off-the-shelf cms I've looked at has the same problem. I'm hoping the new version is better but haven't tried it yet. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Susan R. Grossman [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] stand alone blog software
Thanks for the response, despite my unintentional post. I'm so glad I did post here since the blog really needs to be accessible and fluid. I'm even more scared than I was before I 'knew' anything! PHP and MySQL I figured I'd have to deal with, but LAMP and such?? Yikes. I shall carve out a chunk of time and play with Wordpress. Thanks for all the responses! Lisa Lisa B. McLaughlin, NCW [EMAIL PROTECTED] T: +44 (0) 1943 468624 M: +44 (0) 7835 947606 AllSpunUp Websites that work for you. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael MD Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 9:39 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] stand alone blog software I *want* to like Drupal. I really do. same here When it's working, it's a beautiful thing. But I've recently had a lot of trouble installing the recent version. So much trouble that I gave up on it :( I gave up because it was too slow on a high-traffic site on a busy shared server where the bottleneck is the mysql queue. .. way too many mysql statements run to do anything... and using mysql for caching is a very bad idea - slows it down even more. drupal is not unique there ... almost every off-the-shelf cms I've looked at has the same problem. I'm hoping the new version is better but haven't tried it yet. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout
Sander Aarts wrote: Does a form not have a sort of QA going on then!? Hello Sander, If one tries hard enough, it seems anything can be considered a list of sorts. For example: A web page is a list of headings and content paragraphs, but we wouldn't use a list to layout an entire web page, so we instead use the appropriate mark-up: Headings and paragraphs. A form is a list of controls and their related inputs, but we wouldn't use a list to organize form controls, so we'd use fieldsets/legends, labels and inputs. Using the QA scenario which you might use to try and justify the use of a DL to organize a form, let's swap out the elements with their appropriate ones (which need to be used anyway). DL = Fieldset ?? = Legend DT = Label (the Q) DD = Input (the A) It seems to me the form has everything we need to properly organize it. Once it's made we can add then a few styles and layout rules with CSS to make it look good. This means the DL isn't needed and would serve only as extraneous mark-up. On my contact form I use something like this: form fieldset legendMy Form/legend fieldset legendRequired Contact Info/legend labelName: input //label labelEmail: input //label /fieldset fieldset legendOptional Contact Info/legend labelPhone: input //label labelWeb Site: input //label /fieldset fieldset legendRequired Message/legend labelYour Comments: textarea //label /fieldset input value=Submit / /fieldset /form See a real (somewhat styled) example: http://green-beast.com/gbcf/ (Demo Form) Using this is satifies all of the needs of users and spec requirements. No definition list necessary or needed. That's my thinking on it anyway. I certainly wasn't trying to make a case for using a list, any list, for a form. Cheers. Mike Cherim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Mocking up web interfaces
Thierry Koblentz wrote: On Behalf Of Nick Fitzsimons Being Just a Coder, my usual workflow is: 1. Receive Photoshop files created by client's graphic designer, who has no knowledge of web technologies, no understanding of usability, no interest in accessibility, and thinks everything is the same as print media; 2. Tear my hair out whilst ranting and raving about the ignorance and incompetence of these people; 3. Decide that I'm not going to be beaten by these b4st4rd5; 4. Rack my brains for days or weeks working out how to achieve the impossible; 5. Achieve the impossible; 6. Realise that I've learnt or invented a whole load of useful CSS and HTML techniques; 7. GOTO 1. thanks for all the input, loved this one above and also the valuable directions from Jamie Collins. Cheers! -- Douglas Reith [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)4 1042 1081 mobile Skype Me! callto://douglas_reith *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout
Hello Mike, Mike at Green-Beast.com schreef: If one tries hard enough, it seems anything can be considered a list of sorts. That might be true, but I hope you will agree that it's easier to consider a form being a list than a whole page. A form is a list of controls and their related inputs, but we wouldn't use a list to organize form controls, so we'd use fieldsets/legends, labels and inputs. Using the QA scenario which you might use to try and justify the use of a DL to organize a form, let's swap out the elements with their appropriate ones (which need to be used anyway). DL = Fieldset ?? = Legend DT = Label (the Q) DD = Input (the A) I didn't say I use dls instead of fieldsets. I use them too if needed, although I'm not a big fan of legend (from a layout point of view this must be the most annoying element). Btw, in some cases the label is not the 'Q' but the 'A', as with checkboxes and radio buttons. And I think that originally legends were meant to replace the 'Q'-label in these cases. It seems to me the form has everything we need to properly organize it. Once it's made we can add then a few styles and layout rules with CSS to make it look good. But in most cases not as good as the designer whose designs I'll have to translate into templates wants it. Sometimes you just have not enough hooks for CSS or you'll have to add extra elements in order to make clear snippets that can be reused within the system of the site. And even though we would all like to create websites that use no more than the necessary semantic elements, I'm sure you're familiar with this problem if you work with designs that are not yours or for customers that want don't want an archaic form layout. And if you do need another element then I'd say a dl comes very close to the semantic structure of a form because of this QA thing. See a real (somewhat styled) example: http://green-beast.com/gbcf/ (Demo Form) Using this is satifies all of the needs of users and spec requirements. No definition list necessary or needed. Your demo form is a wonderful example of a web standards compliant and accessible form (although I think that placing the label text before the field instead of above makes it even more accessible for the avarage visitor, especcially if the form tends to be long), but it also has this basic layout. Which is fine, but not always what is requested. !-- slightly off topic: if I may make a suggestion concerning usability: why not have JavaScript, if supported, answer and hide the anti-spam question? That way a lot of people won't be bothered with it :-) -- I certainly wasn't trying to make a case for using a list, any list, for a form. I know and you are forgiven ;-) Cheers. Sander *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Mocking up web interfaces
On Behalf Of Nick Fitzsimons Being Just a Coder, my usual workflow is: 1. Receive Photoshop files created by client's graphic designer, who has no knowledge of web technologies, no understanding of usability, no interest in accessibility, and thinks everything is the same as print media; 2. Tear my hair out whilst ranting and raving about the ignorance and incompetence of these people; 3. Decide that I'm not going to be beaten by these b4st4rd5; 4. Rack my brains for days or weeks working out how to achieve the impossible; 5. Achieve the impossible; 6. Realise that I've learnt or invented a whole load of useful CSS and HTML techniques; 7. GOTO 1. love it ... couldn't have said it better myself! :-) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout
I found these awhile back and was hoping to roll something similar back into my css framework: http://dnevnikeklektika.com/uni-form/ I know that forms are a b*tch to get looking even slightly good on all browsers, but frankly, tables are an old dog and dl's are just younger dogs. Field sets are part of the answer, but you will still have problems with borders and legends on those. In the end, I use a combo of fieldsets, spans and divs (and some javascript in the mix for unobtrusive error highlighting). Karl On 5/25/07, Sander Aarts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Mike, Mike at Green-Beast.com schreef: If one tries hard enough, it seems anything can be considered a list of sorts. That might be true, but I hope you will agree that it's easier to consider a form being a list than a whole page. A form is a list of controls and their related inputs, but we wouldn't use a list to organize form controls, so we'd use fieldsets/legends, labels and inputs. Using the QA scenario which you might use to try and justify the use of a DL to organize a form, let's swap out the elements with their appropriate ones (which need to be used anyway). DL = Fieldset ?? = Legend DT = Label (the Q) DD = Input (the A) I didn't say I use dls instead of fieldsets. I use them too if needed, although I'm not a big fan of legend (from a layout point of view this must be the most annoying element). Btw, in some cases the label is not the 'Q' but the 'A', as with checkboxes and radio buttons. And I think that originally legends were meant to replace the 'Q'-label in these cases. It seems to me the form has everything we need to properly organize it. Once it's made we can add then a few styles and layout rules with CSS to make it look good. But in most cases not as good as the designer whose designs I'll have to translate into templates wants it. Sometimes you just have not enough hooks for CSS or you'll have to add extra elements in order to make clear snippets that can be reused within the system of the site. And even though we would all like to create websites that use no more than the necessary semantic elements, I'm sure you're familiar with this problem if you work with designs that are not yours or for customers that want don't want an archaic form layout. And if you do need another element then I'd say a dl comes very close to the semantic structure of a form because of this QA thing. See a real (somewhat styled) example: http://green-beast.com/gbcf/ (Demo Form) Using this is satifies all of the needs of users and spec requirements. No definition list necessary or needed. Your demo form is a wonderful example of a web standards compliant and accessible form (although I think that placing the label text before the field instead of above makes it even more accessible for the avarage visitor, especcially if the form tends to be long), but it also has this basic layout. Which is fine, but not always what is requested. !-- slightly off topic: if I may make a suggestion concerning usability: why not have JavaScript, if supported, answer and hide the anti-spam question? That way a lot of people won't be bothered with it :-) -- I certainly wasn't trying to make a case for using a list, any list, for a form. I know and you are forgiven ;-) Cheers. Sander *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Map of Australia Image Map
Hi Everyone We are trying to put together a map of Australia where the states appear on hover and are clickable. As I understand it, the hover state can't be used in area so I wonder if there is a way to display the States on hover without using javascript? Has anybody seen or created way of displaying States on hover using CSS only? Thanks in advance for your advice. Felisimina *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Map of Australia Image Map
sure... google = imagemap Felisimina Jom wrote: Hi Everyone We are trying to put together a map of Australia where the states appear on hover and are clickable. As I understand it, the hover state can't be used in area so I wonder if there is a way to display the States on hover without using javascript? Has anybody seen or created way of displaying States on hover using CSS only? Thanks in advance for your advice. Felisimina *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Map of Australia Image Map
Hi Felisimina, Try this tutorial- http://www.cssplay.co.uk/menu/index.html Scroll to the bottom of the Demos page to view tutorials on Image Maps (all CSS). Adeline Felisimina Jom wrote: Hi Everyone We are trying to put together a map of Australia where the states appear on hover and are clickable. As I understand it, the hover state can't be used in area so I wonder if there is a way to display the States on hover without using _javascript_? Has anybody seen or created way of displaying States on hover using CSS only? Thanks in advance for your advice. Felisimina *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]***
Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout
Hi , although I think that placing the label text before the field instead of above makes it even more accessible for the avarage visitor, especcially if the form tends to be long All the research I have read claims labels being above the field results in the greatest useability. http://www.lukew.com/resources/articles/WebForms_LukeW.pdf I have had good success using the standard fieldset and label tags to mark up my forms, the only drawback to this method is the increased vertical height, but again useability research has shown that if your page has the content/function your users are after scrolliong is not a issue. (and you should be cutting your forms down to the bare minimum anyway.) A short example: http://www.griffith.edu.au/cgi-bin/feedbackform.cgi Something else worth mentioning, i did have some issues with syling an array of radio or checkboxes, i.e you have a question, plus you have to label that particular input (with a prefilled answer), but this was neatly solved with a nested fieldset. example: http://www.griffith.edu.au/web-publishing/content-modules/radio-buttons.html example: http://www.griffith.edu.au/web-publishing/content-modules/checkboxes.html Kind Regards, Kane Tapping Web Standards Developer Web and Content Management Services Griffith University. 4111. Australia. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: +61 (0)7 3735 7630 Sander Aarts [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 25/05/2007 10:22 AM Please respond to wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To wsg@webstandardsgroup.org cc Subject Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout Hello Mike, Mike at Green-Beast.com schreef: If one tries hard enough, it seems anything can be considered a list of sorts. That might be true, but I hope you will agree that it's easier to consider a form being a list than a whole page. A form is a list of controls and their related inputs, but we wouldn't use a list to organize form controls, so we'd use fieldsets/legends, labels and inputs. Using the QA scenario which you might use to try and justify the use of a DL to organize a form, let's swap out the elements with their appropriate ones (which need to be used anyway). DL = Fieldset ?? = Legend DT = Label (the Q) DD = Input (the A) I didn't say I use dls instead of fieldsets. I use them too if needed, although I'm not a big fan of legend (from a layout point of view this must be the most annoying element). Btw, in some cases the label is not the 'Q' but the 'A', as with checkboxes and radio buttons. And I think that originally legends were meant to replace the 'Q'-label in these cases. It seems to me the form has everything we need to properly organize it. Once it's made we can add then a few styles and layout rules with CSS to make it look good. But in most cases not as good as the designer whose designs I'll have to translate into templates wants it. Sometimes you just have not enough hooks for CSS or you'll have to add extra elements in order to make clear snippets that can be reused within the system of the site. And even though we would all like to create websites that use no more than the necessary semantic elements, I'm sure you're familiar with this problem if you work with designs that are not yours or for customers that want don't want an archaic form layout. And if you do need another element then I'd say a dl comes very close to the semantic structure of a form because of this QA thing. See a real (somewhat styled) example: http://green-beast.com/gbcf/ (Demo Form) Using this is satifies all of the needs of users and spec requirements. No definition list necessary or needed. Your demo form is a wonderful example of a web standards compliant and accessible form (although I think that placing the label text before the field instead of above makes it even more accessible for the avarage visitor, especcially if the form tends to be long), but it also has this basic layout. Which is fine, but not always what is requested. !-- slightly off topic: if I may make a suggestion concerning usability: why not have JavaScript, if supported, answer and hide the anti-spam question? That way a lot of people won't be bothered with it :-) -- I certainly wasn't trying to make a case for using a list, any list, for a form. I know and you are forgiven ;-) Cheers. Sander *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Map of Australia Image Map
On 25 May 2007, at 11:44 AM, Felisimina Jom wrote: We are trying to put together a map of Australia where the states appear on hover and are clickable. As I understand it, the hover state can't be used in area so I wonder if there is a way to display the States on hover without using javascript? Has anybody seen or created way of displaying States on hover using CSS only? You'll need to create a series of graphics of the whole country with the various states highlighted as you require. Then use css to define which graphic appears on hover - note the whole graphic is replaced, not just the state under the cursor. N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Map of Australia Image Map
You could probably use this techique: http://alistapart.com/articles/sprites On Fri, 25 May 2007 11:44:15 +1000, Felisimina Jom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Everyone We are trying to put together a map of Australia where the states appear on hover and are clickable. As I understand it, the hover state can't be used in area so I wonder if there is a way to display the States on hover without using javascript? Has anybody seen or created way of displaying States on hover using CSS only? Thanks in advance for your advice. Felisimina *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Map of Australia Image Map
re - Has anybody seen or created way of displaying States on hover using CSS only? Hi Felisimina, have a look at the front of http://www.domain.com.au/ i worked on a previous version a while ago (so dont shoot me for any other code on the site ;-) it uses a sprite image for the hover - check it out - http://www.domain.com.au/stylesheets/ImagesZeus/mapAusSmall.gif basically the technique described under Irregular shapes in http://alistapart.com/articles/sprites hope this helps, pete *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Map of Australia Image Map
Hi , Use css to change the offset of the background image, this technique can be combined with a text replacement (negative text indent in thie case) to provide accessible labels. A simple example can be seen in the navigation on this page: http://www.harmonynaturaltherapies.com/ which all comes from this html with no JS ul id=nav lia class=home href=index.htmlHome/a/li lia class=acupuncture href=acupuncture.htmlAcupuncture/a/li lia class=massage href=massage.htmlMassage/a/li lia class=pamper href=pamper.htmlPamper/a/li lia class=about href=about.htmlAbout/a/li /ul the magic comes from the css. Kind Regards, Kane Tapping Web Standards Developer Web and Content Management Services Griffith University. 4111. Australia. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: +61 (0)7 3735 7630 Felisimina Jom [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 25/05/2007 11:44 AM Please respond to wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To wsg@webstandardsgroup.org cc Subject [WSG] Map of Australia Image Map Hi Everyone We are trying to put together a map of Australia where the states appear on hover and are clickable. As I understand it, the hover state can't be used in area so I wonder if there is a way to display the States on hover without using javascript? Has anybody seen or created way of displaying States on hover using CSS only? Thanks in advance for your advice. Felisimina *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Map of Australia Image Map
Brilliant! Thanks to everyone who has responded already. All have been very useful. Felisimina - Original Message - From: John Faulds [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 12:02 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Map of Australia Image Map You could probably use this techique: http://alistapart.com/articles/sprites On Fri, 25 May 2007 11:44:15 +1000, Felisimina Jom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Everyone We are trying to put together a map of Australia where the states appear on hover and are clickable. As I understand it, the hover state can't be used in area so I wonder if there is a way to display the States on hover without using javascript? Has anybody seen or created way of displaying States on hover using CSS only? Thanks in advance for your advice. Felisimina *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Map of Australia Image Map
At 5/24/2007 07:10 PM, Peter Ottery wrote: re - Has anybody seen or created way of displaying States on hover using CSS only? have a look at the front of http://www.domain.com.au/ Very nicely done. Of course the problem was made easier by the fact that most of the borders between Australian states are on the horizontal or vertical, but you handled the major exception between NSW and VIC excellently by expressing ACT as a strategically-placed and -sized rectangle. Good work! I don't know that this would have been quite as effective at a larger scale where the discrepancies between wobbly borders and straight block sides would have been more obvious -- perhaps requiring some additional tiny blocks to mimic angles -- but at this scale the illusion works spendidly. Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Map of Australia Image Map
Felisimina wrote: We are trying to put together a map of Australia where the states appear on hover and are clickable. As I understand it, the hover state can't be used in area so I wonder if there is a way to display the States on hover without using javascript? Hello Felisimina, This might be a decent solution for you. http://mikecherim.com/experiments/css_map_pop.php Cheers. Mike Cherim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Australian University webpage reviews and WANAU membership
On 25 May 2007, at 1:22 PM, Tim wrote: So what do you know about change management Nick? Comment on the research Nick, stick to the issue instead of trying so pathetically to belt me up. The page is not intended for you Nick. Take a bex and have a good lie down. Tim Reply made offlist as debates of qualifications and recommended medications are definitely OT. N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout
Hello Mariusz, substituting dt with label or dd with input doesn't seem right to me at all... you can't just swap them I'm not really saying to swap them. I'm not pro-list or -table for form layout, I was just trying to pair the elements to show that form elements can serve in the same way (as they should). For example, instead of DT, use Label and leave the DT in the dictionary. The point of my comments, though, was what I have been saying all along. You simply don't need additional structure to put a form on a page. All you need are the form-related elements: Form, fieldset, legend, label, input (varied), and textarea. Using these elements and CSS you can lay out a form and, if this done properly, it's good to go, semantic, valid, accessible, and actually fairly controllable. There is actually a lot one can do without having to introduce something like a list or table structure. Try clever floats, et. al. But, as a disclaimer I should add that it's best probably to not do too much. If a form is styled it should probably be done minimally (if it ain't broken...). It is true that the legend element and how it relates to the fieldset can be a challenge (John Faulds has a good article about messing with legends [1]). It's also true not all browsers will support focus, and inputs like checkboxes, radio buttons, will display differently in different browsers, but there is a lot you can do without introducing anything else, especially in terms of positioning/layout. Roger Johansson has a good reference on form styling [2]. Your example is simple form with really one thematic group and you have 4 fieldsets there (?!). Yes. I felt the groupings I chose were appropriate. F1 - The Form F2 - Required F3 - Optional F4 - Required again. Submit The Requireds are separated by the Optional, but I wanted to maintain the order I chose: The Form Required Name and Email Optional Phone and URL Required Comments Submit [1] http://www.tyssendesign.com.au/articles/css/legends-of-style/ [2] http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200701/styling_form_controls_with_css_revisited/ Sorry if I was unclear in my previous posts. Hopefully my message is clearer this time 'round. Cheers. Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Australian University webpage reviews and WANAU membership
and maybe you could have an anger management course while Nick is having his lie down or maybe we could just leave personal attacks out of the mailing list :) [EMAIL PROTECTED] 25/05/2007 11:22:12 am So what do you know about change management Nick? Comment on the research Nick, stick to the issue instead of trying so pathetically to belt me up. The page is not intended for you Nick. Take a bex and have a good lie down. Tim On 25/05/2007, at 12:09 PM, Nick Gleitzman wrote: On 24 May 2007, at 8:04 PM, Tim wrote: I have a post graduate Diploma in Applied Social Psychological research Wow. If that's true, then you should surely appreciate that the best way to effect change in *any* system is not by angry, aggressive and sarcastic ranting, but by reasoned, logical, CALM discussion. No-one wants to deal with someone who accuses all the time. and shouts while he's doing it to boot... Oh, and BTW, your web pages make my head hurt. They may contain relevant information, but visually friendly they ain't. N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** The Editor Heretic Press http://www.hereticpress.com Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ** The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security requirements for inbound transmission. ** The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for outbound transmission. This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential and privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email (facsimile) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email (facsimile) in error please contact the Insurance Commission. Web: www.icwa.wa.gov.au Phone: +61 08 9264 * *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Map of Australia Image Map
Paul Novitski schreef: Of course the problem was made easier by the fact that most of the borders between Australian states are on the horizontal or vertical, ... Just what I thought. I whished that I lived in a country with borders like that ;-) Often clicked myself instant RSI creating clickable area's on a map of the Netherlands (to get an impression of the borders: http://www.jachthavens-nederland.nl/JN_images%5CnederlandGroot.gif). Don't think the CSS-only technique would be of much help here. Too bad. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] A CMS for POSH sites?
Surely Wordpress (can't speak for Textpattern) will output whatever you put into your templates, including doctype? On Fri, 25 May 2007 13:55:47 +1000, David Hucklesby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Following up on Lisa McLaughlin's recent query about blogging software, I wonder if anyone can help me find a CMS that lets me use Plain Old Semantic HTML? I'm not convinced XHTML is the wave of the future for web sites, but cannot find a version of TextPattern or WordPress or the like that does not use XHTML markup (and sends it as HTML !) (FWIW - I love Textile, but that, too, creates XHTML.) Cordially, David -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Australian University webpage reviews and WANAU membership
Reply made offlist as debates of qualifications and recommended medications are definitely OT. /* Admin */ Agreed. This thread is now closed as the majority of content appears to be OT, and is certainly not conducive to helping anybody This list is for discussing and debating web standards and close-related topics. I would prefer this was done in a friendly helpful manner. The list rules *require* that this is done politely and professionally Keep this in mind Thanks Lachlan Hardy *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] A CMS for POSH sites?
Following up on Lisa McLaughlin's recent query about blogging software, I wonder if anyone can help me find a CMS that lets me use Plain Old Semantic HTML? I'm not convinced XHTML is the wave of the future for web sites, but cannot find a version of TextPattern or WordPress or the like that does not use XHTML markup (and sends it as HTML !) (FWIW - I love Textile, but that, too, creates XHTML.) Cordially, David -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
ADMIN - THREAD CLOSED Re: [WSG] Australian University webpage reviews and WANAU membership
On Fri, 25 May 2007 13:33:46 +1000, Nick Gleitzman wrote: Reply made offlist as debates of qualifications and recommended medications are definitely OT. Thank you Nick. This thread is closed - it wasn't really on topic originally, although it showed some chance of morphing there. Any discussion needs to be on topic. If in doubt, please review: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm particularly What the list covers and does not cover The link to that page is always at the bottom of every post. warmly, Lea -- Lea de Groot WSG Core *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Map of Australia Image Map
If the image is a map, and you want to link areas of it, then an image map is the semantically correct solution. Faking them with lists and CSS is no better than using tables for layout IMHO. Geoff. == The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments == *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Australian University webpage reviews and WANAU membership
On 25 May 2007, at 1:58 PM, Lachlan Hardy wrote: Reply made offlist as debates of qualifications and recommended medications are definitely OT. /* Admin */ Agreed. This thread is now closed as the majority of content appears to be OT, and is certainly not conducive to helping anybody This list is for discussing and debating web standards and close-related topics. I would prefer this was done in a friendly helpful manner. The list rules *require* that this is done politely and professionally Keep this in mind Thanks Lachlan Hardy At the risk of incurring further admin wrath, I'd just like to share that it only took two more emails offlist before Tim resorted to the irrefutable intellectual argument of telling me to f**k off. Speaks volumes, really. Communicate with him at your own risk. N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout
The point of my comments, though, was what I have been saying all along. You simply don't need additional structure to put a form on a page. All you need are the form-related elements: Form, fieldset, legend, label, input (varied), and textarea. Using these elements and CSS you can lay out a form and, if this done properly, it's good to go, semantic, valid, accessible, and actually fairly controllable. There is actually a lot one can do without having to introduce something like a list or table structure. Try clever floats, et. al. For the most part your comments are correct - however the reality is that these alone will not allow for more complex presentation requirements. This becomes VERY apparent when dealing with errors... For instance, say I am required to indicate to a user that there is a problem with a particular field. More than just providing a list of errors, I wish to highlight each field visually (ideally semantically too) and display a useful help message indicating what the user has done wrong. Here is my label/input ONLY mark-up: label id=label_email for=field_emailEmail Address span class=required*/span/label input type=text id=field_email name=email / How am I going to highlight the label input pair without a container div? A fieldset? But, its one field and field sets seem to indicate multiple related fields? If I put a background colour on a label, how does it appear? What about a background colour on the input itself? We try: div class=labelInputPair label id=label_email for=field_emailEmail Address span class=required*/span/label input type=text id=field_email name=email / span class=errorMessageSorry, your email address was not valid. It should look something like [EMAIL PROTECTED]/div /div But... Where does the 'error message' go? Before or after the input? What about the semantics of this error message? What about the semantics of the required nature of the field in my business logic itself too, surely that might be nice for a screen reader user to know as well? Even if I add in container divs or spans to allow for additional presentation elements, the semantic value of them is still completely non-existent. Thats a limitation with HTML and XHTML, they simply don't allow for meaningful mark-up when it comes to form fields. At any rate, I hope you can see that people are really struggling with this stuff and for good reason. The standards are archaic and leave a lot to be desired. Karl *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Map of Australia Image Map
At 5/24/2007 09:14 PM, Sander Aarts wrote: Paul Novitski schreef: Of course the problem was made easier by the fact that most of the borders between Australian states are on the horizontal or vertical, ... Just what I thought. I whished that I lived in a country with borders like that ;-) Often clicked myself instant RSI creating clickable area's on a map of the Netherlands (to get an impression of the borders: http://www.jachthavens-nederland.nl/JN_images%5CnederlandGroot.gif). Don't think the CSS-only technique would be of much help here. Too bad. Yow! Talk about squiggly! Perhaps you could suggest to parliament that they straighten out those danged borders to make life easier for us web designers. Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Converting font size from pt to % or em
Hi Guys, I'm developing a website that have some standards defined. The font size specified is 9pt. But due to accessibility standards I wanted to convert that in % or em. Can anybody tell what do i need to use to view the same size in different browsers? -- :: Sagnik :: *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Map of Australia Image Map
Paul wrote: Of course the problem was made easier by the fact that most of the borders between Australian states are on the horizontal or vertical, but you handled the major exception between NSW and VIC excellently by expressing ACT as a strategically-placed and -sized rectangle. Good work! ha :) thru the wonders of archiving tho I dug up my original which left the state borders as-is: http://c41.com.au/map/ yep, its not perfect, the hover doesn't crossover exactly on the borders because we've only got rectangles to work with in a box model - but i thought this worked pretty well considering. pete *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Converting font size from pt to % or em
Hi ,
Setting the body to font size to 65% - 70% is a good start. this averages
out the differences between the browsers,
body { font-size: 70%;}
From then on set your font sizes in ems.
h1 {font-size: 1.8em;}
And keep in mind that changes to the em size will cascade through
container objects.
Kind Regards,
Kane Tapping
Web Standards Developer
Web and Content Management Services
Griffith University. 4111. Australia.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Phone: +61 (0)7 3735 7630
Sagnik Dey [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
25/05/2007 03:18 PM
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Subject
[WSG] Converting font size from pt to % or em
Hi Guys,
I'm developing a website that have some standards defined. The font size
specified is 9pt. But due to accessibility standards I wanted to convert
that in % or em. Can anybody tell what do i need to use to view the same
size in different browsers?
--
:: Sagnik ::
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Re: [WSG] A CMS for POSH sites?
On 5/25/07, David Hucklesby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Following up on Lisa McLaughlin's recent query about blogging software, I wonder if anyone can help me find a CMS that lets me use Plain Old Semantic HTML? POSH as a concept is not about HTML vs. XHTML, it's about using the correct semantic elements. As David says, most platforms - Wordpress, Textpattern, Expression Engine - will output whatever you put into their templates. Matthew. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
