Re: [WSG] Safari now on Windows
Hi Come October or thereabouts there will be another KHTML browser in the form of Konquerer 4 on Windows. All good news for implementing web standards. Now I don't have to buy a Mac... Cheers James On 6/12/07, Geoff Pack [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This will be interesting... Safari 3 Public Beta: http://www.apple.com/safari/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Safari now on Windows
On 6/11/07, Geoff Pack [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: James Ellis wrote: Now I don't have to buy a Mac... Then how will you test for Safari 1, 2, IE 5 Mac, etc? By posting to the Web Standards Group mailing list (with the subject line, Mac test please). -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Mac test please (was Safari now on Windows)
By posting to the Web Standards Group mailing list (with the subject line, Mac test please). Well, as you mentioned it: I downloaded Safari for Windows today and didn't have any problem with it except that my own site looks completely screwed in it. It didn't look like that last time I checked with Browsercam and it doesn't look like that using Swift so I'm wondering if it might be a Safari 3 issue (and maybe just Safari for Windows). So could Mac users have a look in Safari 2 3 and tell me if there's a difference? Cheers John -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Mac test please (was Safari now on Windows)
On Jun 12, 2007, at 5:02 PM, John Faulds wrote: Well, as you mentioned it: I downloaded Safari for Windows today and didn't have any problem with it except that my own site looks completely screwed in it. It didn't look like that last time I checked with Browsercam and it doesn't look like that using Swift so I'm wondering if it might be a Safari 3 issue (and maybe just Safari for Windows). You declare a width of 600px on body. Yeah, and, you load stylesheets via xml PI. Safari/WebKit doesn't recognise media types in that case. It applies all your stylesheets. (try to convince your boss to by a Mac) Philippe --- Philippe Wittenbergh http://emps.l-c-n.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] I need to ask a non-web design question from Aussie
Good question, Kat :) On 6/12/07, Katrina [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tee G. Peng wrote: Hello Australians , I am so so so sorry I have to post this to ask you kindly write me offlist so that I can ask the question - (without 'but') this is the only list I know full of Aussie that can give me the information I needed. It is a non-web web standards no web design question so I will refrain myself from asking publicly. Thank you and very truly sorry for the OT! tee What was the question? Kat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Safari now on Windows
On 6/12/07, Gary Barber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know its beta, but at least apple could have a link to an online bug reporter.. Wasp posted this: http://webkit.org/quality/reporting.html From the sounds of it, they may get a few entries... -Alastair *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[Re: [WSG] resizing text via graphics/text?]
David Hucklesby wrote: http://www.marscovista.fsnet.co.uk/newtemplate/flashtext.htm Sweet. It falls back to an image if Flash is disabled, even in IE! 8-O Now if only it increased with font size in IE... Cordially, David -- Don't forget though, in IE6 and below, it strongdoes/strong change size along with the html text via the actual text resize options on the browser menu (smallest-largest). It's only the fact that IE versions 7 don't respond to CTRL+ that's the problem. -- Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Safari now on Windows
Gary Barber wrote: Main problem I have with safari is on win xp sp2 none of the fonts it wants to use render at all. Makes life very interesting. I'm getting the same thing - no fonts render at all, including those that are part of the chrome, so I can't even type in any URLs... Pressing the bug report button caused my entire screen to blank out for about ten seconds, then it slowly came back a bit at a time but I have a black hole (with nicely rounded corners) where Safari used to be. Rob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Safari now on Windows
I've just downloaded Safari 3.0 (522.11.3) and I'm running it on Win XP Pro SP2 and have to say I haven't experienced any problems so far (touch wood). The fonts are fine, and I even used the bug report button - it took a long time, but didn't crash as others are reporting. FWIW I have been running iTunes and Quicktime on this machine - I wonder if that has anything to do with it? Simon Gary Barber wrote: Main problem I have with safari is on win xp sp2 none of the fonts it wants to use render at all. Makes life very interesting. ~ simonmoss.co.uk Tel: 0117 908 3831 Mob: 07843 383395 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Safari now on Windows
Simon Moss wrote: FWIW I have been running iTunes and Quicktime on this machine - I wonder if that has anything to do with it? I have Quicktime (which I've tried updating) but not iTunes. I also have Swift (open source webkit based browser) installed which may be upsetting things. I have found a way to get Safari to behave usefully, if not look very nice. Go to the Safari folder in Program Files, look in the 'Safari.resources' folder and delete the two .ttf files (Lucida Grande and Lucida Grande Bold). Safari will then display text on the web page and chrome, but the chrome is all rendered in Times Roman. Found here: http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=993849 Rob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Safari now on Windows
Well, I have quicktime and iTunes. I don't have Swift. I still got all the reported problems in my Win XP SP2: no fonts and crashing bug button. And no, deleting the two .ttf files didn't solve it. Roberto - Rob Crowther wrote: Simon Moss wrote: FWIW I have been running iTunes and Quicktime on this machine - I wonder if that has anything to do with it? I have Quicktime (which I've tried updating) but not iTunes. I also have Swift (open source webkit based browser) installed which may be upsetting things. I have found a way to get Safari to behave usefully, if not look very nice. Go to the Safari folder in Program Files, look in the 'Safari.resources' folder and delete the two .ttf files (Lucida Grande and Lucida Grande Bold). Safari will then display text on the web page and chrome, but the chrome is all rendered in Times Roman. -- Roberto Gorjão freelance designer and web designer personal site: www.castelosnoar.com PORTUGAL / BRAGA / PÓVOA DE LANHOSO *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Safari now on Windows
I have to say that I have the same issue as Roberto, shame about safari looks like more of a alpha then beta.. On 12/06/07, Roberto Gorjão [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, I have quicktime and iTunes. I don't have Swift. I still got all the reported problems in my Win XP SP2: no fonts and crashing bug button. And no, deleting the two .ttf files didn't solve it. Roberto - Rob Crowther wrote: Simon Moss wrote: FWIW I have been running iTunes and Quicktime on this machine - I wonder if that has anything to do with it? I have Quicktime (which I've tried updating) but not iTunes. I also have Swift (open source webkit based browser) installed which may be upsetting things. I have found a way to get Safari to behave usefully, if not look very nice. Go to the Safari folder in Program Files, look in the 'Safari.resources' folder and delete the two .ttf files (Lucida Grande and Lucida Grande Bold). Safari will then display text on the web page and chrome, but the chrome is all rendered in Times Roman. -- Roberto Gorjão freelance designer and web designer personal site: www.castelosnoar.com PORTUGAL / BRAGA / PÓVOA DE LANHOSO *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Mac test please (was Safari now on Windows)
Hi Philippe, Yeah, and, you load stylesheets via xml PI. Safari/WebKit doesn't recognise media types in that case. It applies all your stylesheets. Yep, that was it. Thanks for that. But I'm curious why it's only a problem in v3 and not earlier versions. -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Safari now on Windows
James Leslie wrote: Just to add to the confusion... I have winXP SP2 with quicktime installed (previously, not as part of the safari install) and am having no problems at all with it. Fonts all seem to render nicely, even the bug button brings up a bug reporting page for me directly. Me too, worked first time... *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Mac test please (was Safari now on Windows)
On Jun 12, 2007, at 9:34 PM, John Faulds wrote: Yeah, and, you load stylesheets via xml PI. Safari/WebKit doesn't recognise media types in that case. It applies all your stylesheets. Yep, that was it. Thanks for that. But I'm curious why it's only a problem in v3 and not earlier versions. Probably because Safari v2 gets text/html for your site. The same bug is present there, though. - I'm just guessing, I don't have Safari v2 installed (v3 overwrites v2) on my PowerBook right now. I suppose you do some detection based on q values for application/xhtml+xml or similar. And Safari v2 only broadcasts text/html in the headers. Philippe --- Philippe Wittenbergh http://emps.l-c-n.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Safari now on Windows
Doesn't work for me either and it gets stuck using 50% of CPU. Back to Firefox... Frederick On 6/12/07, Tony Crockford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: James Leslie wrote: Just to add to the confusion... I have winXP SP2 with quicktime installed (previously, not as part of the safari install) and am having no problems at all with it. Fonts all seem to render nicely, even the bug button brings up a bug reporting page for me directly. Me too, worked first time... *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Safari now on Windows
The Safari on Win XP is running smoothly on my machine -Sagnik On 6/12/07, Frederick Matzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Doesn't work for me either and it gets stuck using 50% of CPU. Back to Firefox... Frederick On 6/12/07, Tony Crockford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: James Leslie wrote: Just to add to the confusion... I have winXP SP2 with quicktime installed (previously, not as part of the safari install) and am having no problems at all with it. Fonts all seem to render nicely, even the bug button brings up a bug reporting page for me directly. Me too, worked first time... *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- :: Sagnik :: *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
I am out of the office until the 18th June. I will be checking my e-mail, however, if anything requires an urgent response, please contact the GOLF Link Help Desk on 1300 650 750, or e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Regards, Kirk McDonald # Attention: The information contained in this message and or attachments is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any system and destroy any copies. # # This e-mail message has been scanned for Viruses and Content and cleared by MailMarshal # *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Safari now on Windows
Downloaded this even though the others at my office were scared to. Did some testing and seems to function very well, no crashing. Enjoy having the extra Apple feel on my PC :) Worth noting that Gmail ran about 5 times faster when loading emails than Firefox or IE, my guess is that the Ajax and Javascript support for this browser tops that of most others. Nice! Tim www.timpalac.com/blog/ AIM: TymArtist On 6/11/07, Geoff Pack [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This will be interesting... Safari 3 Public Beta: http://www.apple.com/safari/ == The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments == *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Back to the Future
Hi all, I've been asked to write a website that MUST work in Netscape 4.03 and IE 3 for Windows 3.1. When you've stopped laughing I'm afraid I have to say I'm serious, and there's no chance at all that the people connecting to the site will upgrade. So, any tips to do this without reverting all the way back to 1996 tables and spacer gifs? Or am I doomed to non-standards hell? Cheers, and wish me luck. Chris *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Back to the Future
On 12 Jun 2007, at 17:04, Chris Taylor wrote: I've been asked to write a website that MUST work in Netscape 4.03 and IE 3 for Windows 3.1. When you've stopped laughing I'm afraid I have to say I'm serious, and there's no chance at all that the people connecting to the site will upgrade. So, any tips to do this without reverting all the way back to 1996 tables and spacer gifs? Or am I doomed to non-standards hell? Does 'work' really mean 'look the same'? -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ http://blog.dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Safari now on Windows
Roberto Gorjão wrote: Well, I have quicktime and iTunes. I don't have Swift. I still got all the reported problems in my Win XP SP2: no fonts and crashing bug button. And no, deleting the two .ttf files didn't solve it. I think I've found most of the solution now, following reading this blog post: http://labnol.blogspot.com/2007/06/safari-3-is-half-baked-web-browser-from.html The problem appears to be the Font.plist file which is created as part of the user profile. I replaced mine with a copy from a colleague's machine (where it was working perfectly), copied the Lucida fonts back in, and now the browser chrome is rendering as expected. Still get some issues with particular fonts on web pages, but the browser chrome now looks right. I suspect the issue might be because I have a big pile of extra fonts installed on my machine over and above the standard ones shipped with Windows, or because one of those fonts is upsetting Safari, because an install I did on a VMWare machine worked fine. Rob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Back to the Future
Chris If this is Internet and not in intranet, I suggest that you design for the real customers; that is people who visit the site and not those who own it. If this user group are still for some strange reason, bound by running windows 3.1 etc.. do it the old way, take the money and don't put it on your CV I wish you all the very best on this project... -- Regards - Rob Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk Linking in with others: http://linkedin.com/in/robkirton On 12/06/07, Chris Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I've been asked to write a website that MUST work in Netscape 4.03 and IE 3 for Windows 3.1. When you've stopped laughing I'm afraid I have to say I'm serious, and there's no chance at all that the people connecting to the site will upgrade. So, any tips to do this without reverting all the way back to 1996 tables and spacer gifs? Or am I doomed to non-standards hell? Cheers, and wish me luck. Chris *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Back to the Future
Well, there isn't a look yet, as I haven't designed it. It needs to be as simple as possible, so there's no really advanced stuff required and the design will reflect that. It's an intranet system, so only available to users with valid logins, hence it needs to work in a wide spread of browsers. My initial tests show that NN4.03 handles some CSS (float, background, border, font etc) but not some important things (list-style, margin and padding on lists). Is there a source for information about CSS support on old browsers? Thanks Chris -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Dorward Sent: 12 June 2007 17:09 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Back to the Future On 12 Jun 2007, at 17:04, Chris Taylor wrote: I've been asked to write a website that MUST work in Netscape 4.03 and IE 3 for Windows 3.1. When you've stopped laughing I'm afraid I have to say I'm serious, and there's no chance at all that the people connecting to the site will upgrade. So, any tips to do this without reverting all the way back to 1996 tables and spacer gifs? Or am I doomed to non-standards hell? Does 'work' really mean 'look the same'? -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ http://blog.dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Back to the Future
As much as I would hate the idea, go old school completely. Forget CSS and use very basic HTML. Since you don't need anything fancy, don't use anything fancy. They won't know div from a table anyway because they need it work. Good Luck. Really it should be very easy! On 6/12/07, Chris Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, there isn't a look yet, as I haven't designed it. It needs to be as simple as possible, so there's no really advanced stuff required and the design will reflect that. It's an intranet system, so only available to users with valid logins, hence it needs to work in a wide spread of browsers. My initial tests show that NN4.03 handles some CSS (float, background, border, font etc) but not some important things (list-style, margin and padding on lists). Is there a source for information about CSS support on old browsers? Thanks Chris -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Dorward Sent: 12 June 2007 17:09 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Back to the Future On 12 Jun 2007, at 17:04, Chris Taylor wrote: I've been asked to write a website that MUST work in Netscape 4.03 and IE 3 for Windows 3.1. When you've stopped laughing I'm afraid I have to say I'm serious, and there's no chance at all that the people connecting to the site will upgrade. So, any tips to do this without reverting all the way back to 1996 tables and spacer gifs? Or am I doomed to non-standards hell? Does 'work' really mean 'look the same'? -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ http://blog.dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Frederick - www.eyeriskdesign.com • Great artwork for all styles www.onlythesales.com • The online place to start for SAVING MONEY. www.bedlamedia.com • Design services for PRINT and WEB. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Back to the Future
Hi Chris, I actually junked my set of Windows 3.1 floppy disks the other day and wondered if anyone is still using it... Info on CSS support at: http://www.w3schools.com/css/css_reference.asp Good luck!! Nick Chris Taylor wrote: Well, there isn't a look yet, as I haven't designed it. It needs to be as simple as possible, so there's no really advanced stuff required and the design will reflect that. It's an intranet system, so only available to users with valid logins, hence it needs to work in a wide spread of browsers. My initial tests show that NN4.03 handles some CSS (float, background, border, font etc) but not some important things (list-style, margin and padding on lists). Is there a source for information about CSS support on old browsers? Thanks Chris -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Dorward Sent: 12 June 2007 17:09 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Back to the Future On 12 Jun 2007, at 17:04, Chris Taylor wrote: I've been asked to write a website that MUST work in Netscape 4.03 and IE 3 for Windows 3.1. When you've stopped laughing I'm afraid I have to say I'm serious, and there's no chance at all that the people connecting to the site will upgrade. So, any tips to do this without reverting all the way back to 1996 tables and spacer gifs? Or am I doomed to non-standards hell? Does 'work' really mean 'look the same'? -- Nick Roper partner logical elements *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Accessible Drop Down
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/hybrid/ is a drop down list example which can be seen here: http://www.alistapart.com/d/hybrid/hybrid-4.html. I see that it relies on a source of JS to complete the effect, and i'm wondering if it's possible to complete this purely with XHTML CSS. Anyone have a good example of this? Ryan Moore *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] WCAG Samurai Errata
Tee G.Peng wrote: Hi, I finally got a chance to read the WCAG Samurai Errata. Maybe something to do with my understanding in English, I see there is autority tone in there. Guideline 11, bullet point 3, point 4: I really mean this... Not so convincing, perhaps? Lars Gunther *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible Drop Down
Ryan Moore wrote: I see that it relies on a source of JS to complete the effect, and i'm wondering if it's possible to complete this purely with XHTML CSS. Anyone have a good example of this? Just do not do it. It cannot be done. a. JS is the best tool for *behavior*. CSS for design. b. There are huge accessibility and usability issues with pure CSS menus, such as: - off-screen positioning - moving the mouse the shortest distance will often lead to the menu getting closed - non-intuitive keyboard navigation Etc Lars Gunther *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Back to the Future
Chris Taylor wrote: [] My initial tests show that NN4.03 handles some CSS (float, background, border, font etc) but not some important things (list-style, margin and padding on lists). Is there a source for information about CSS support on old browsers? Nick Roper wrote: Info on CSS support at: http://www.w3schools.com/css/css_reference.asp If you're forced to work old-school, then you might find some old, otherwise outdated information websites of value. For instance, I would combine the W3CSchools info with old info from the CSS Pointers Group: http://www.dev-archive.net/articles/pointers/bugs-ie.html and http://www.dev-archive.net/articles/pointers/bugs-nn.html and also from RichInStyle.com: http://www.richinstyle.com/bugs/netscape4.html The CSS Pointers Group info was especially useful in the early 2000's in understanding how to deal with the many failures of different browsers to meet the W3C CSS standards. Phil. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Back to the Future
Chris Taylor skrev: Hi all, I've been asked to write a website that MUST work in Netscape 4.03 and Remember to put modern CSS in a separate, imported stylesheet file, as NN4 can crash when encountering CSS that it does not know how to interpret. /Anders *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible Drop Down
Ok. So typically is any form of navigation that relies on a rollover or hover state would be a bad practice of accessibility/usability? On 6/12/07, Keryx Web [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ryan Moore wrote: I see that it relies on a source of JS to complete the effect, and i'm wondering if it's possible to complete this purely with XHTML CSS. Anyone have a good example of this? Just do not do it. It cannot be done. a. JS is the best tool for *behavior*. CSS for design. b. There are huge accessibility and usability issues with pure CSS menus, such as: - off-screen positioning - moving the mouse the shortest distance will often lead to the menu getting closed - non-intuitive keyboard navigation Etc Lars Gunther *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Accessible Drop Down
Ryan Moore wrote: I see that it relies on a source of JS to complete the effect, and i'm wondering if it's possible to complete this purely with XHTML CSS. Anyone have a good example of this? Keryx Web (Lars Gunther) wrote: Just do not do it. It cannot be done. a. JS is the best tool for *behavior*. CSS for design. b. There are huge accessibility and usability issues with pure CSS menus, such as: - off-screen positioning - moving the mouse the shortest distance will often lead to the menu getting closed - non-intuitive keyboard navigation Ryan Moore wrote: Ok. So typically is any form of navigation that relies on a rollover or hover state would be a bad practice of accessibility/usability? It depends on how it is done. I would disagree with Lars that it cannot be done, but to do it properly in a way that meets usability and accessibility guidelines requires a great deal of care and attention to detail. I think that the Ultimate Drop Down Menu 4.5 by Brothercake comes about as close as any I've seen to meeting those guidelines (someone else mentioned it last week in response to a similar question about accessible drop-down menus): http://www.udm4.com/ UDM4 normally uses JavaScript, but it is designed so that the it will degrade gracefully and you can set it up so that your menu will work the same way as a CSS-only menu if JavaScript is turned off. It also includes a keyboard module that allows you to configure better keyboard access. UDM4 is copyrighted and there is a licensing fee, but non-profit organizations can obtain a free license. I do not have any relationship, business or personal, with Brothercake/UDM4 other than having used it when working on a non-profit site in the past. Phil. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Safari now on Windows
Then how will you test for ... IE 5 Mac Like the rest of us - he won't :) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible Drop Down
Thanks For your Input Phil. What annoys me with some of the solutions is trying to understand some of the browser hacks, and isn't it now with many of the browsers improving that hacks are frowned upon? On 6/12/07, Philip Kiff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ryan Moore wrote: I see that it relies on a source of JS to complete the effect, and i'm wondering if it's possible to complete this purely with XHTML CSS. Anyone have a good example of this? Keryx Web (Lars Gunther) wrote: Just do not do it. It cannot be done. a. JS is the best tool for *behavior*. CSS for design. b. There are huge accessibility and usability issues with pure CSS menus, such as: - off-screen positioning - moving the mouse the shortest distance will often lead to the menu getting closed - non-intuitive keyboard navigation Ryan Moore wrote: Ok. So typically is any form of navigation that relies on a rollover or hover state would be a bad practice of accessibility/usability? It depends on how it is done. I would disagree with Lars that it cannot be done, but to do it properly in a way that meets usability and accessibility guidelines requires a great deal of care and attention to detail. I think that the Ultimate Drop Down Menu 4.5 by Brothercake comes about as close as any I've seen to meeting those guidelines (someone else mentioned it last week in response to a similar question about accessible drop-down menus): http://www.udm4.com/ UDM4 normally uses JavaScript, but it is designed so that the it will degrade gracefully and you can set it up so that your menu will work the same way as a CSS-only menu if JavaScript is turned off. It also includes a keyboard module that allows you to configure better keyboard access. UDM4 is copyrighted and there is a licensing fee, but non-profit organizations can obtain a free license. I do not have any relationship, business or personal, with Brothercake/UDM4 other than having used it when working on a non-profit site in the past. Phil. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Safari now on Windows
I haven't had any trouble with it either. Lucien Stals [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sagnik Dey [EMAIL PROTECTED] 13/06/07 12:59 AM The Safari on Win XP is running smoothly on my machine -Sagnik On 6/12/07, Frederick Matzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Doesn't work for me either and it gets stuck using 50% of CPU. Back to Firefox... Frederick On 6/12/07, Tony Crockford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: James Leslie wrote: Just to add to the confusion... I have winXP SP2 with quicktime installed (previously, not as part of the safari install) and am having no problems at all with it. Fonts all seem to render nicely, even the bug button brings up a bug reporting page for me directly. Me too, worked first time... *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- :: Sagnik :: *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Swinburne University of Technology CRICOS Provider Code: 00111D NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended only for the use of the addressee. They may contain information that is privileged or protected by copyright. If you are not the intended recipient, any dissemination, distribution, printing, copying or use is strictly prohibited. The University does not warrant that this e-mail and any attachments are secure and there is also a risk that it may be corrupted in transmission. It is your responsibility to check any attachments for viruses or defects before opening them. If you have received this transmission in error, please contact us on +61 3 9214 8000 and delete it immediately from your system. We do not accept liability in connection with computer virus, data corruption, delay, interruption, unauthorised access or unauthorised amendment. Please consider the environment before printing this email. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible Drop Down
Ryan, Sure they are frowned upon, but what option do you have? I always resort to a solution that involves javascript - CSS alone just doesn't work in IE6: Dropdowns/flyouts will show appear under select boxes - this is a big issue in IE6 and no amount of css (even hacks) can get around this in that browser. Oh and besides, it doesnt even support :hover css attributes for anything other than an anchor tag... If you could guarantee that IE7 was used by everyone, at least them we could have CSS only solutions. Frankly, I hate drop down menus. They are unnecessary on most standard websites. Jame's work on UDM is probably the most accessible and functional ones out there - they cost, but he's a nice bloke so its worth it if you are doing something professionally with them. Karl On 6/13/07, Ryan Moore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks For your Input Phil. What annoys me with some of the solutions is trying to understand some of the browser hacks, and isn't it now with many of the browsers improving that hacks are frowned upon? On 6/12/07, Philip Kiff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ryan Moore wrote: I see that it relies on a source of JS to complete the effect, and i'm wondering if it's possible to complete this purely with XHTML CSS. Anyone have a good example of this? Keryx Web (Lars Gunther) wrote: Just do not do it. It cannot be done. a. JS is the best tool for *behavior*. CSS for design. b. There are huge accessibility and usability issues with pure CSS menus, such as: - off-screen positioning - moving the mouse the shortest distance will often lead to the menu getting closed - non-intuitive keyboard navigation Ryan Moore wrote: Ok. So typically is any form of navigation that relies on a rollover or hover state would be a bad practice of accessibility/usability? It depends on how it is done. I would disagree with Lars that it cannot be done, but to do it properly in a way that meets usability and accessibility guidelines requires a great deal of care and attention to detail. I think that the Ultimate Drop Down Menu 4.5 by Brothercake comes about as close as any I've seen to meeting those guidelines (someone else mentioned it last week in response to a similar question about accessible drop-down menus): http://www.udm4.com/ UDM4 normally uses JavaScript, but it is designed so that the it will degrade gracefully and you can set it up so that your menu will work the same way as a CSS-only menu if JavaScript is turned off. It also includes a keyboard module that allows you to configure better keyboard access. UDM4 is copyrighted and there is a licensing fee, but non-profit organizations can obtain a free license. I do not have any relationship, business or personal, with Brothercake/UDM4 other than having used it when working on a non-profit site in the past. Phil. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Back to the Future
I've been asked to write a website that MUST work in Netscape 4.03 and IE 3 for Windows 3.1. When you've stopped laughing I'm afraid I have to say I'm serious, and there's no chance at all that the people connecting to the site will upgrade. I'm quite curious about this - do you genuinely have a client with a large user base on archaic machines, or is this a whim of the CEO who won't upgrade scenario? Anyway, the next question is does it need to work as in be functional or does it have to work as in look the same? If it just needs to be functional, use import filters and give raw content to the old browsers. But I'm guessing this isn't an option or you probably wouldn't be asking :) So, any tips to do this without reverting all the way back to 1996 tables and spacer gifs? Or am I doomed to non-standards hell? From memory NN4 could handle some basic CSS but I wouldn't attempt to do a modern float or fixed layout with it. Your best bet is probably to use a CSS/table hybrid - use the table to set columns etc then CSS for colours, etc. IE3... sorry I simply can't recall. It's probably a little less capable than NN4. Cheers, and wish me luck. Good luck, and charge appropriately - meaning charge extra ;) -Ben -- --- http://weblog.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Safari now on Windows
Rob I suspect you are onto something. I too have a very large number of fonts. problem is if you don't have a good Font.plis to copy from. -- Gary Barber Blog - http:/manwithnoblog.com Rob Crowther wrote: Roberto Gorjão wrote: Well, I have quicktime and iTunes. I don't have Swift. I still got all the reported problems in my Win XP SP2: no fonts and crashing bug button. And no, deleting the two .ttf files didn't solve it. I think I've found most of the solution now, following reading this blog post: http://labnol.blogspot.com/2007/06/safari-3-is-half-baked-web-browser-from.html The problem appears to be the Font.plist file which is created as part of the user profile. I replaced mine with a copy from a colleague's machine (where it was working perfectly), copied the Lucida fonts back in, and now the browser chrome is rendering as expected. Still get some issues with particular fonts on web pages, but the browser chrome now looks right. I suspect the issue might be because I have a big pile of extra fonts installed on my machine over and above the standard ones shipped with Windows, or because one of those fonts is upsetting Safari, because an install I did on a VMWare machine worked fine. Rob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Back to the Future
My initial tests show that NN4.03 handles some CSS (float, background, border, font etc) but not some important things (list-style, margin and padding on lists). Is there a source for information about CSS support on old browsers? if you are going to use css with netscape 4 I suggest you do lots of testing ... it's buggy as hell on that browser... and errors often cause the content not to be displayed at all! - I'd probably go for just basic html for netscape 4... In fact it was Nestcape 4 that scared me off from using CSS for a few years! *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
