[WSG] Accessibility and fly out menus

2007-06-21 Thread Mary-Anne . Nayler
I was wondering how members here feel about the accessibility of Fly Out 
menus. The type I'm talking about are CSS based, ie no JavaScript but I'd 
be interested to hear what people think about those that utilise 
JavaScript. 


~~
Mary-Anne Nayler
Senior Web Designer/Developer
Web Services Section
Medicare Australia
(02) 6124 6681






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[WSG] Accessibility and fly out menus

2007-06-21 Thread Mary-Anne . Nayler
I was wondering how members here feel about the accessibility of Fly Out 
menus. The type I'm talking about are CSS based, ie no JavaScript but I'd 
be interested to hear what people think about those that utilise 
JavaScript. 


~~
Mary-Anne Nayler
Senior Web Designer/Developer
Web Services Section
Medicare Australia
(02) 6124 6681






NOTICE - This message is intended only for the use of the addressee named above 
and may contain privileged and confidential information. If you are not the 
intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that you must not 
disseminate, copy or take any action based upon it. If you received this 
message in error please notify Medicare Australia immediately. Any views 
expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the 
sender specifically states them to be the views of Medicare Australia.
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Re: [WSG] Accessibility and fly out menus

2007-06-21 Thread Brian Cummiskey

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I was wondering how members here feel about the accessibility of Fly 
Out menus. The type I'm talking about are CSS based, ie no JavaScript 
but I'd be interested to hear what people think about those that 
utilise JavaScript.


The suckerfish menus are pretty accessible, but like all items that 
require a hover action, those with out a mouse may suffer a little.


http://www.htmldog.com/articles/suckerfish/dropdowns/



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RE: [WSG] Accessibility and fly out menus [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

2007-06-21 Thread Watson, Denis
 
As a user I have some difficulty with fly out and pop up menus.
Firstly I find them difficult visually. Although my eye sight is
reasonably good I do not like sudden movement on the screen. Secondly, I
find that such menu items can be difficult to keep the mouse on although
I do not have any movement disability.
 
In general I have an aversion to sites using these techniques and I tend
to avoid them if I can. I consider that there are definitely
accessability issues with them, especially for people who have motor
neurone problems.  
 
Denis Watson,
Web Editor,
Productivity Commission.
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Phone: 61 3 9653 2264 
Mobile: 0418 330 240 
Fax: 61 3 9653 2199
 



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 21 June 2007 4:36 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Accessibility and fly out menus



I was wondering how members here feel about the accessibility of Fly
Out menus. The type I'm talking about are CSS based, ie no JavaScript
but I'd be interested to hear what people think about those that utilise
JavaScript. 


~~
Mary-Anne Nayler
Senior Web Designer/Developer
Web Services Section
Medicare Australia
(02) 6124 6681







NOTICE - This message is intended only for the use of the addressee
named above and may contain privileged and confidential information. If
you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby
notified that you must not disseminate, copy or take any action based
upon it. If you received this message in error please notify Medicare
Australia immediately. Any views expressed in this message are those of
the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them
to be the views of Medicare Australia.

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RE: [WSG] Triggering POSTs with links?

2007-06-21 Thread Chris Taylor
Cheers, I thought that when I went back to it as well. I'll get that done
very soon.

Chris


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Thierry Koblentz
Sent: 20 June 2007 17:49
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Triggering POSTs with links?

 On Behalf Of Chris Taylor
 Have you tried the button element? As far as I know that can be
 styled
 pretty much how you want. I used it on this page:
 http://www.searchandgo.com/weather/United-States/New-York-City/ - the
 New
 York City exchange rates text on the left is a button.

Clever...
I'd add a cursor:pointer declaration to give pointing device users a clue
that this text is clickable.

---
Regards,
Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com





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Re: [WSG] Accessibility and fly out menus

2007-06-21 Thread Ross Bruniges
 I'm yet to see a JavaScript-free menu that:
 * Can be used without a pointing device (e.g. by keyboard or breath  switch 
 users)
 * Doesn't vanish the moment that the mouse drifts outside the menu  
 (thus requiring fine motor control that users with, for instance,  
 arthritis are unlikely to have)

the whole point is that there shouldn't be a javaScript-free menu that provides 
this functionality!! CSS is merely a format for styling documents and should 
not be used for functionality like that!

the behavior mentioned above is something that is included in HTML, and, if you 
want things to look better the required functionality SHOULD be included with 
JavaScript.

So in summary - get those JavaScript books out ;






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RE: [WSG] Triggering POSTs with links?

2007-06-21 Thread Richard Ishida
Ah, that makes a lot more sense, Mike.  Thanks. 

It's annoying that it doesn't work so well in Opera, but I'd rather give the
problem to Opera users than IE users.  This also seems a much more sensible
approach. I guess I should contact Opera and see if we can't get this
'fixed'.

So now my code looks like this:

.container label.interaction {
  font-size: 130%;
  color: #e70;
  background-color: #ff; 
  border: 0; 
  margin: 0; 
  padding: 0;
  cursor: pointer;
  }


form action=/International/2007/06/surveyform.php method=post
plabel class=interactioninput src=/International/icons/mailus.gif
alt= type=image Envoyez-nous un commentaire/label/p
input type=hidden name=docname value=$self /
input type=hidden name=referer value=$referer /
input type=hidden name=lang value=$clang / 
/form

I'm wondering whether to add a title attribute telling Opera users to click
the icon, or whether they'll figure it out.

Thanks all for the help.

RI


Richard Ishida
Internationalization Lead
W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
 
http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
http://www.w3.org/International/
http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/
 
 

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike at 
 Green-Beast.com
 Sent: 21 June 2007 05:18
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: Re: [WSG] Triggering POSTs with links?
 
 Thierry Koblentz wrote:
  I came up with this:
  http://www.tjkdesign.com/lab/button.asp
  But it requires to move the text out of the button :(
 
 I'm sort of just catching the end of this, but are you guys 
 talking about something like what I did on my daughter's blog [1]?
 
 [1] http://sarahcherim.com/ (look at the Contribution Cow 
 on the sidebar)
 
 I didn't use button (not sure if that's was the point or just 
 making clickable image/text form posting).
 
 Cheers.
 Mike Cherim
 
 PS. Just a little disclaimer, looking at the image/text form 
 on that site I realized I should have used a legend instead 
 of the heading. It's not clickable in Opera either, by the 
 way -- just the image.
  
 
 
 
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Re: [WSG] intuitive text resizer for accessibility toolbar

2007-06-21 Thread Benedict Wyss

Hi Felix,

you are right in everything you write..but, there are always exceptions,
in that we need to (at Veteran's Affairs) cater for visitors accross the
board. We need to consider the realestate taken up and the text size which
are oposite forces and so we need to find a happy medium.

My idea is to have a basic font size to allow a reasonable amount of content
with less scrolling and then in an accessibility toolbar give the visitor
the oportunity to increase the font size in the main content area. This to
me seems like a decent compromise. I am open to correction on that, but it
seems fair though.

So I will still need to place a text resizing mechanism to cover that
government standard for the site.

While awaiting the responses from the list I came up with a simple solution
using a few lines of JS. With the + button, the visitor can increase the (h1
to 4 and p) tags to double the size in the main content area and the -
button will return it to normal. I worked on the assumption that lower that
normal font sizes are unneccessary but as a standard we are obliged to offer
a larger text size alternative, and one that differs from the cnrt+/- that
applies to the whole site.

Cheers,

Ben



On 6/21/07, Felix Miata [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


On 2007/06/21 00:12 (GMT-0400) Benedict Wyss apparently typed:

 I just searched on google and found a couple that left me feeling rather
 mentally limp, so your my next port of call.

 please pass back links to a text resizer that has the following ability:

I think what you want is to reinvent the wheel and clutter your page
duplicating browser tools. One job of a modern web browser to provide its
user with whatever text size adjustment is required to
make a page comfortable and/or usable. They all provide by default a size
determined by scientific tests to be a size that works well for the broadest
range of users, along with at least one tool to
tailor it to personal whim. Presumably each user has either already done
so or found doing so unnecessary. All you need to do is accommodate them all
by leaving the base size as you found it and
setting only contextual sizes relative to the base size presumptively
chosen by each individual user. http://www.w3.org/QA/Tips/font-size
http://www.lighthouse.org/accessibility/
http://www.informationarchitects.jp/100e2r?v=4
--
Respect everyone. I Peter 2:17 NIV

Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/


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Re: [WSG] Triggering POSTs with links?

2007-06-21 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com
Richard Ishida wrote:
 It's annoying that it doesn't work so well in Opera,
 but I'd rather give the problem to Opera users than
 IE users.  This also seems a much more sensible
 approach. I guess I should contact Opera and see if
 we can't get this 'fixed'.

I'm bummed it doesn't work as well in Opera. I just realized that last night 
before I sent it (hence the after thought disclaimer). It's a usability 
issue because Opera users will think they can click something when they 
can't. Can't rely on a title attribute of course thus I think the best 
option is to make the visible text more clear -- temporary solution, anyway.

What I just did on my daughter's blog (http://sarahcherim.com/) is change 
the label text

From:

Use PayPal to give Sarah some college money as a way of saying thanks 
and good luck!

To:

Click the dancing cow to give Sarah some college money with PayPal as a 
way of saying thanks and good luck! 

And that way at least the what to do clue is visible to Opera users, and 
everyone else can get away with missing the cow and clicking the text so 
it's more like an enhancement. I had to do something. Still didn't add the 
legend, but I'll do that when I have more time to fool with it so it doesn't 
change the look.

Just a thought.

Cheers.
Mike Cherim


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[WSG] future standards

2007-06-21 Thread Alan Trick
Hi,

I just watched a presentation from Robert O'Callahan last night and I
think some of you would enjoy it. He goes over some of the new stuff
that's coming out in Firefox and how Firefox plans to develop the web
and web standards. It includes demos of their new typography support
(ligatures and kerning), built-in video, canvas, offline, APNG, and
other stuff.

One of the really cool this is that Opera already supports a lot of this
stuff too and I think Safari is working on it. So we should have  20%
market penetration of this stuff pretty soon. A lot of it degrades
pretty well too.

The video's at
http://www.meetup.co.nz/2007/06/21/video-june-meetup-robert-ocallahan-from-mozilla-on-firefox-3/
 there's also a short writeup on it on the New Zealand Herald 
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=5objectid=10446902

I've become a bit cynical with the W3C and their recent slowness to come
out with workable specs (XHTML 2 anyone?). There has only been a very
small advance in web technology in the last few years I've been in the
industry. The WHATWG seems to be taking up the torch well. I hope the
W3C can get in on it though.

Alan Trick


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RE: [WSG] Accessibility and fly out menus

2007-06-21 Thread Thierry Koblentz
 On Behalf Of Brian Cummiskey
 The suckerfish menus are pretty accessible, but like all items that
 require a hover action, those with out a mouse may suffer a little.
 
 http://www.htmldog.com/articles/suckerfish/dropdowns/

This solution is keyboard friendly and there is a few pixels cussion
around the sub-menus for pointing device users:
http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/keyboard_friendly_dropdown_menu/EK.asp
Making it a flyout rather than a drop down is just a matter of cahnging a
few rules.

---
Regards,
Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com






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RE: [WSG] intuitive text resizer for accessibility toolbar

2007-06-21 Thread Philip Kiff
Benedict Wyss wrote:
 My idea is to have a basic font size to allow a reasonable amount of
 content with less scrolling and then in an accessibility toolbar give
 the visitor the oportunity to increase the font size in the main
 content area. This to me seems like a decent compromise. I am open to
 correction on that, but it seems fair though.

 So I will still need to place a text resizing mechanism to cover that
 government standard for the site.

I'm not sure what you mean by government standard here.  There is some
debate about whether text resizer widgets are a good idea at all, and I
don't think that there is any government standard that explicitly requires
them.  There are a variety of arguments about this, but a couple quick ones
are: is the widget usable without JavaScript? (This is required for the site
to meet W3C WCAG 1.0 Priority 1 Guidelines). Is it usable without cookies?
How can you inform a visitor that the widget exists, and what it will do, if
they cannot read the text on the site to begin with?

What is usually required from a standards perspective, at minimum, is that a
site use relative font sizes in a way that allows a visitor to increase the
font size of the site using browser controls.  Some very respectable sites
provide a link to increase text size that offer simply an explanation of
how to increase the text size in different browsers, rather than trying to
change the size of the fonts being sent to the browser.


 [...] I worked on
 the assumption that lower that normal font sizes are unneccessary but
 as a standard we are obliged to offer a larger text size alternative,
 and one that differs from the cnrt+/- that applies to the whole site.

I don't think you are obliged to offer a larger text size alternative, and
one that differs from the cnrt+/- that applies to the whole site.


 On 6/21/07, Felix Miata wrote:
 I think what you want is to reinvent the wheel and clutter your page
 duplicating browser tools. One job of a modern web browser to provide
 its user with whatever text size adjustment is required to
 make a page comfortable and/or usable.
 [] All you need to do is
 accommodate them all by leaving the base size as you found it and
 setting only contextual sizes relative to the base size presumptively
 chosen by each individual user.

I'd have to agree with Felix on this one, particularly for a site whose
target market includes large numbers of seniors.  Seniors are more likely to
be unfamiliar with how web browsers work than the younger population, and as
a result, they will be less likely to know how to change the font size in
their browsers, and they will also be less likely to understand the function
of font resizing widgets on a page, no matter how you present them.  And
given that deteriorating vision is such a common issue for that population,
the best approach for a site targeting that market would be to use a large
enough default size that most users can use it.  To do this, I would
seriously consider following Felix's recommendation of leaving the base size
as you found it.

Phil.



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RE: [WSG] Accessibility and fly out menus

2007-06-21 Thread Philip Kiff
Mary-Anne.Nayler wrote:
 I was wondering how members here feel about the accessibility of Fly
 Out menus. The type I'm talking about are CSS based, ie no
 JavaScript but I'd be interested to hear what people think about
 those that utilise JavaScript.

There was a discussion about this *exact* same topic on this list just one
to two weeks ago:
http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg@webstandardsgroup.org/msg29150.html
and
http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg@webstandardsgroup.org/msg28989.html

Those earlier threads address the questions of CSS vs. JavaScript
flyout/dropdowm menus, keyboard navigation, hover delays, etc.

Additional older threads on the same topic can be found in the archives:
http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg@webstandardsgroup.org/

Phil.



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[WSG] Safari Web Inspector

2007-06-21 Thread Nick Fitzsimons

Hi all,

Just thought people here might like to know that the WebKit team have  
just announced their new Web Inspector in nightly builds of Safari  
for Mac  Windows:
http://webkit.org/blog/108/yet-another-one-more-thing-a-new-web- 
inspector/


Just had a play, and it looks like it offers most of the goodies  
we've come to expect from Firebug, although Drosera (the JS debugger  
bundled with nightly builds) still seems to make WebKit suck up a lot  
of processor cycles...


Oh, and although nightly builds aren't as stable as the public beta,  
they will run side-by-side with your current installation, making  
testing for the future while browsing in the present much easier.  
(That doesn't apply to Windows, obviously, although I assume the  
nightly will co-exist with the beta - can't be bothered to open up  
Windows and test, though.)


Enjoy!

Nick.
--
Nick Fitzsimons
http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/





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[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: *****SPAM***** digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org

2007-06-21 Thread McNally, Peter R
I will be out of the office on Thursday 06/21/07 and Friday 06/22/07.  I will 
be back in the office on Monday 06/25/07.  

I will be on vacation and not checking email or voicemail during this time.  I 
will respond to all emails when I return.  


Thanks, 

Pete


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[WSG] Javascript problem

2007-06-21 Thread Paul Collins

Hi all,

I hope this is on topic, please ignore it if not, I have a small
Jscript problem that shouldn't be hard to sort out, but I am not great
with these things...

I have a script that adds colours to a all the columns in  a table. It
works fine, the only problem is, it is trying to apply the code to all
pages, when the table is only on a couple. So when I am viewing all
other pages, it comes up with this error:

document.getElementById(tableID) has no properties

So, what I would like to do, is add a checker to the script to see if
the table actually exists before doing the rest of the code.
Unfortunately, I am a novice to this and I've been stuffing around for
a while and can't get it to work.

Here is the teh script, it is worth mentioning that this is the only
table on the site, so that may help with the re-working of the code,
although it would be nice to have a checker that looks for the
specific table id.

Thanks in advance:

// script to add alternating table background colours
var colors=[#E5D9DB,#C5D3D8,#DBCBBE,#E9DBC7,#D4E0E0,#C5CEC7];
function alternateRows(tableID,numberOfColors,colorArray){
var 
trs=document.getElementById(tableID).getElementsByTagName(TD);
len=trs.length;
var myColors=colorArray.slice(0,numberOfColors);
while(len--){

trs[len].style.backgroundColor=colors[len%myColors.length];
}
}

// add onload event
addLoadEvent(function() {
alternateRows(caseStudiesTable,6,colors);
}
);


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RE: [WSG] Javascript problem

2007-06-21 Thread Peter Leing
Try the following. It will check to see if the element exists before executing 
the alternateRows() function.

addLoadEvent(function() {
if(document.getElementById(caseStudiesTable)) {
alternateRows(caseStudiesTable,6,colors);
}
});

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Collins
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 1:57 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Javascript problem

Hi all,

I hope this is on topic, please ignore it if not, I have a small
Jscript problem that shouldn't be hard to sort out, but I am not great
with these things...

I have a script that adds colours to a all the columns in  a table. It
works fine, the only problem is, it is trying to apply the code to all
pages, when the table is only on a couple. So when I am viewing all
other pages, it comes up with this error:

document.getElementById(tableID) has no properties

So, what I would like to do, is add a checker to the script to see if
the table actually exists before doing the rest of the code.
Unfortunately, I am a novice to this and I've been stuffing around for
a while and can't get it to work.

Here is the teh script, it is worth mentioning that this is the only
table on the site, so that may help with the re-working of the code,
although it would be nice to have a checker that looks for the
specific table id.

Thanks in advance:

// script to add alternating table background colours
var colors=[#E5D9DB,#C5D3D8,#DBCBBE,#E9DBC7,#D4E0E0,#C5CEC7];
function alternateRows(tableID,numberOfColors,colorArray){
var 
trs=document.getElementById(tableID).getElementsByTagName(TD);
len=trs.length;
var myColors=colorArray.slice(0,numberOfColors);
while(len--){

trs[len].style.backgroundColor=colors[len%myColors.length];
}
}

// add onload event
addLoadEvent(function() {
alternateRows(caseStudiesTable,6,colors);
}
);


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Re: [WSG] Javascript problem

2007-06-21 Thread Matthew Pennell

On 21/06/07, Paul Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


So, what I would like to do, is add a checker to the script to see if
the table actually exists before doing the rest of the code.
Unfortunately, I am a novice to this and I've been stuffing around for
a while and can't get it to work.



Simple solution - add this line to the start of your function:

if (!document.getElementById(tableID)) return;

--




Matthew Pennell //
m: 07904 432123 //
www.thewatchmakerproject.com


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Re: [WSG] Javascript problem

2007-06-21 Thread Dan Dorman

On 6/21/07, Dan Dorman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

function alternateRows(tableID,numberOfColors,colorArray){
  [snipped]
  if (table) {
var trs=document.getElementById(tableID).getElementsByTagName(TD);
[snipped]
}
  }
}


Whoops!  I got a little careless.  The line starting with var
trs..., while it will still work, is needlessly verbose, since you've
already got the results of getElementById. You can rewrite that line
as:

var trs = table.getElementsByTagName(TD)

to save a few processor cycles and a few keystrokes.

Dan Dorman


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RE: [WSG] Javascript problem

2007-06-21 Thread Thierry Koblentz
 On Behalf Of Paul Collins
 
 I have a script that adds colours to a all the columns in  a table. It
 works fine, the only problem is, it is trying to apply the code to all
 pages, when the table is only on a couple. So when I am viewing all
 other pages, it comes up with this error:
 
 document.getElementById(tableID) has no properties
 
 So, what I would like to do, is add a checker to the script to see if
 the table actually exists before doing the rest of the code.
 Unfortunately, I am a novice to this and I've been stuffing around for
 a while and can't get it to work.
 
 Here is the teh script, it is worth mentioning that this is the only
 table on the site, so that may help with the re-working of the code,
 although it would be nice to have a checker that looks for the
 specific table id.
 
 Thanks in advance:
 
 // script to add alternating table background colours
 var
 colors=[#E5D9DB,#C5D3D8,#DBCBBE,#E9DBC7,#D4E0E0,#C5CEC7];
   function alternateRows(tableID,numberOfColors,colorArray){


   var
 trs=document.getElementById(tableID).getElementsByTagName(TD);
   len=trs.length;
   var myColors=colorArray.slice(0,numberOfColors);
   while(len--){
 
   trs[len].style.backgroundColor=colors[len%myColors.length];
   }
   }
 
 // add onload event
 addLoadEvent(function() {
   alternateRows(caseStudiesTable,6,colors);
   }
 );

Try this:

addLoadEvent(function() {
if(document.getElementById(caseStudiesTable))
alternateRows(caseStudiesTable,6,colors);
}

---
Regards,
Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com






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Re: [WSG] Triggering POSTs with links?

2007-06-21 Thread Sander Aarts


Richard Ishida schreef:

It's annoying that it doesn't work so well in Opera, but I'd rather give the
problem to Opera users than IE users.

Ouch! That hurts man...


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Re: [WSG] Triggering POSTs with links?

2007-06-21 Thread Sander Aarts

Why do need a POST anyway if I may ask?

cheers,
Sander


Richard Ishida schreef:
I put together a box that expands to accommodate larger text in translation, but I forgot that text on a submit button doesn't wrap :O 


Original: 
http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-css-charset.en.php#endlinks (see 
the box to the right)
First problematic translation: 
http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-css-charset.fr.php#endlinks

I want the text Send us a comment to look like a link, but trigger a POST, so 
I put the text in a submit button and styled it. Unfortunately the longer translations 
won't wrap that way.

form action=/International/2007/06/surveyform.php method=post
pinput class=interaction value=Send us a comment type=submit/p
input name=docname value=/International/questions/qa-css-charset.en.php 
type=hidden
input name=referer 
value=http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-css-charset.fr.php; type=hidden
input name=lang value=en type=hidden 
/form


Does anyone know a better way to do this?  I was hoping to avoid using 
JavaScript, if possible.

Cheers,
RI



Richard Ishida
Internationalization Lead
W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
 
http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/

http://www.w3.org/International/
http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/
 




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Re: [WSG] future standards

2007-06-21 Thread Sander Aarts


Alan Trick schreef:

I've become a bit cynical with the W3C and their recent slowness to come
out with workable specs (XHTML 2 anyone?). There has only been a very
small advance in web technology in the last few years I've been in the
industry. The WHATWG seems to be taking up the torch well. I hope the
W3C can get in on it though.


Both W3C and WHATWG are working on the same specs now for (X)HTML5. So 
as a result they're on the same speed, although most input is probably 
coming from the WHATWG side.


cheers,
Sander


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Re: [WSG] Accessibility and fly out menus

2007-06-21 Thread Sander Aarts


Ross Bruniges schreef:

the whole point is that there shouldn't be a javaScript-free menu that provides 
this functionality!! CSS is merely a format for styling documents and should 
not be used for functionality like that!
  
I've heard this a lot, but if changing color on hovering a link is 
styling (which I think it is) than I guess a dropdown menu can be seen 
as styling as well. I'm not saying dropdowns should be done by CSS, but 
I don't see why it should definitely not be done that way. In the end 
you'll need CSS anyway, if only for the absolute positioning. Same goes 
for JavaScript if you want your menu to drop down in IE6.
In my opinion the balance between these 2 additional layers just depends 
both on your personal preferences and (most of all) on what you expect 
from the final result.


If you make shure that, by making the main buttons clickable as well, 
the dropdown menus only provide extra shortcuts and not the only way of 
navigating through the site everyone should be able to access your site. 
Providing an option to turn off the dropdowns is of course a nice extra 
(if passed on from one page to another).



cheers,
Sander


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[WSG] Accessibility and fly out menus

2007-06-21 Thread Mary-Anne . Nayler
I was wondering how members here feel about the accessibility of Fly Out 

menus. The type I'm talking about are CSS based, ie no JavaScript but I'd 
be interested to hear what people think about those that utilise 
JavaScript. 


~~
Mary-Anne Nayler
Senior Web Designer/Developer
Web Services Section
Medicare Australia
(02) 6124 6681






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Re: [WSG] intuitive text resizer for accessibility toolbar

2007-06-21 Thread Benedict Wyss

Ya gotta love the WSG,

This is exactly why I post here, where people respond with decent honest
answers with out too much in the way of restriction.

For that I thank you! :-)

All right, so I exaggerated on the Government Standard, you got me.;-)


I am still unsure on how to proceed, so bare with me a little longer.

Even though I agree on the fixed reasonable font size but, with some sites
there is an over stuffing of content and we have managed to trim the content
owners down on this and so arrive at an agreed amount that if fixed at a
larger font will turn the page into more than necessary scrolling which in
the end leads to a percentage not willing to scroll too much. (no there are
not masses of content).

So even faced with the official W3C standards we still have to compromise
whether we like it or not and so I ask the pointed question - What is the
happy medium?

Please don't quote the various Standards bibles because I am not about that,
we as web developers need to live with in these standards and if a few
conflict with each other then that is what we can come here to discuss and
agree on. (correct me if I am wrong).

So do I approach the powers that be and indicate it is unnecessary to have
this option or do I find a happy medium like I suggested in the previous
post? (my aim being to accommodate the W3C/ Accessibility / IA / etc
Standards and funnily enough provide a decent site for the intended
audience).

Yours Faithfully,

Ben

PS: Side Question: does everyone else see multiple entries for each of my
posts or does this only appear spasmodically on gmail? (I only send it
once). Is there a setting to change?

On 6/22/07, Philip Kiff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Benedict Wyss wrote:
 My idea is to have a basic font size to allow a reasonable amount of
 content with less scrolling and then in an accessibility toolbar give
 the visitor the oportunity to increase the font size in the main
 content area. This to me seems like a decent compromise. I am open to
 correction on that, but it seems fair though.

 So I will still need to place a text resizing mechanism to cover that
 government standard for the site.

I'm not sure what you mean by government standard here.  There is some
debate about whether text resizer widgets are a good idea at all, and I
don't think that there is any government standard that explicitly requires
them.  There are a variety of arguments about this, but a couple quick
ones
are: is the widget usable without JavaScript? (This is required for the
site
to meet W3C WCAG 1.0 Priority 1 Guidelines). Is it usable without cookies?
How can you inform a visitor that the widget exists, and what it will do,
if
they cannot read the text on the site to begin with?

What is usually required from a standards perspective, at minimum, is that
a
site use relative font sizes in a way that allows a visitor to increase
the
font size of the site using browser controls.  Some very respectable sites
provide a link to increase text size that offer simply an explanation of
how to increase the text size in different browsers, rather than trying to

change the size of the fonts being sent to the browser.


 [...] I worked on
 the assumption that lower that normal font sizes are unneccessary but
 as a standard we are obliged to offer a larger text size alternative,
 and one that differs from the cnrt+/- that applies to the whole site.

I don't think you are obliged to offer a larger text size alternative,
and
one that differs from the cnrt+/- that applies to the whole site.


 On 6/21/07, Felix Miata wrote:
 I think what you want is to reinvent the wheel and clutter your page
 duplicating browser tools. One job of a modern web browser to provide
 its user with whatever text size adjustment is required to
 make a page comfortable and/or usable.
 [] All you need to do is
 accommodate them all by leaving the base size as you found it and
 setting only contextual sizes relative to the base size presumptively
 chosen by each individual user.

I'd have to agree with Felix on this one, particularly for a site whose
target market includes large numbers of seniors.  Seniors are more likely
to
be unfamiliar with how web browsers work than the younger population, and
as
a result, they will be less likely to know how to change the font size in
their browsers, and they will also be less likely to understand the
function
of font resizing widgets on a page, no matter how you present them.  And
given that deteriorating vision is such a common issue for that
population,
the best approach for a site targeting that market would be to use a large
enough default size that most users can use it.  To do this, I would
seriously consider following Felix's recommendation of leaving the base
size
as you found it.

Phil.



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[WSG] IE7 zoom collapses horizontal tab navigation

2007-06-21 Thread Miles Tillinger
This is a centered tab menu based on Alistapart's Sliding Doors concept.
The IE7 zoom tool is making the anchor text in the tabs 'collapse' away
from the tab background images.  See example:
http://www.streetdaddy.com/temp/ce/
 
It only happens when the li is display: block (needed to center the ul).
Its fine if the li's are floated.
 
I can't seem to find a fix for the problem, but it must be out there...
anyone?
 
Cheers,
 
Miles.
 

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