Re: [WSG] Footer Problem IE5.x
Sarah Peeke (XERT) wrote: 2. If I don't include a dreaded hack in my css (which I'd really like to remove because my style sheet doesn't validate) So use a Conditional Comment - ? N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Font-size 62.5% problem
On 2 Jul 2007, at 3:10 PM, Felix Miata wrote: Paul Collins apparently typed: I seem to be having trouble assigning the font-size:62.5% Please note that... Toldja. N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Footer Problem IE5.x
Hi Nick, I guess I was hoping to fix the problem(s), rather than just rely on a hack. Other suggestions appreciated. So use a Conditional Comment - ? 2. If I don't include a dreaded hack in my css (which I'd really like to remove because my style sheet doesn't validate) Sarah -- XERT Communications http://www.xert.com.au/ web design development Geofeat International http://geofeat.com/ all things green, eco-friendly organic The Virtual Collective http://geofeat.com/tvc/ join today help create one world one humanity *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Footer Problem IE5.x
On 2 Jul 2007, at 6:09 PM, Sarah Peeke (XERT) wrote: I guess I was hoping to fix the problem(s), rather than just rely on a hack. Other suggestions appreciated. Fair enough, but I'd say your chances of getting the one set of css rules to display correctly in all browsers are pretty slim - especially if you want to include browsers as flawed as Exploder 5.x. Even MS themselves accept how hard this is - hence CCs. I routinely serve as many as three alternative stylesheets vis CCs for different versions of IE. They only need to contain a handful of rules necessary to override the correct values served to compliant browsers. Whether you consider CCs a hack is, I guess, subjective. But your code will validate, and they're easy to remove with a global search and replace if and when the time comes that you don't need them any more. Why beat your head against the wall of buggy browsers when the manufacturer themselves supplies a workaround? N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Best practice embedding a Quicktime/Flash video
These solutions are interesting, but I'm only willing to spend time looking at them if: * Users without Javascript but with Flash can still view the movies * I can integrate them with my CMS (Plone) -- I'll need to generate the code dynamically * I don't have to litter the body with Javascript snippets * My page validation doesn't break as a result. I've only given them a cursory glance so far, so with any luck they will fulfil these criteria, although I notice that UFO injects embed tags via Javascript. Thanks for the heads up about these -- if I had the time I'd love to compare all the different methods. Maybe I can after this project's finished ;-) David On 30/06/07, Tate Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 29/06/2007, at 6:52 PM, David Little wrote: I see your point here. The only thing I wonder about, and forgive me if I am just in need of more coffee here, but what does a user get if they *choose* not use Flash? Is alt-content handled? It shows my limited knowledge of this area that I wasn't aware that you could put your alternative content within the object tag -- that's going to be very useful. This seems to be the best way forward for me at present with my limited time frame without relying on Javascript libraries. The problem with using the object tag to embed content such as flash presents some problems in IE7. By default, these controls are disabled and users must click the object to activate it. This is the result of a company that held a patent on embedding content, and took MS to court over it. However, the patent doesn't include embedding inline objects (Such as using javascript to embed flash). I'd strongly encourage you to check out SWFObject. It's quick and easy to implement. You can also provide alternate content for users without flash or javascript. That said, the object tag *does* support alternate content as well. SWFobject -- http://blog.deconcept.com/swfobject/ - Tate *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- David Little -e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -w: www.littled.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Footer Problem IE5.x
Seconded -- compared to all the other hacks you'll need to make when coding for IE browsers, conditional comments are the least of your worries; in fact they are your friend! On 02/07/07, Nick Gleitzman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2 Jul 2007, at 6:09 PM, Sarah Peeke (XERT) wrote: I guess I was hoping to fix the problem(s), rather than just rely on a hack. Other suggestions appreciated. Fair enough, but I'd say your chances of getting the one set of css rules to display correctly in all browsers are pretty slim - especially if you want to include browsers as flawed as Exploder 5.x. Even MS themselves accept how hard this is - hence CCs. I routinely serve as many as three alternative stylesheets vis CCs for different versions of IE. They only need to contain a handful of rules necessary to override the correct values served to compliant browsers. Whether you consider CCs a hack is, I guess, subjective. But your code will validate, and they're easy to remove with a global search and replace if and when the time comes that you don't need them any more. Why beat your head against the wall of buggy browsers when the manufacturer themselves supplies a workaround? N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- David Little -e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -w: www.littled.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Font-size 62.5% problem
Paul Collins wrote: The font stays slightly larger than 11px, when I set it to 1.1em. this has worked fine on other sites, so not sure why it isn't working here. Any ideas? check that you haven't set a minimum font size in your browser preferences. ;) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Font-size 62.5% problem
Thanks for your replies everyone. My target would be Firefox, Safari, IE, Opera. This seems to have worked in the past on those browsers. It has worked fine for me in the past. Kepler, I tried adding it inline to the body tag, still can't get it to work. Tony, I tried getting rid of the minimum font-size in firefox and still no result! Can't for the life of me figure this out! Cheers On 02/07/07, Nick Gleitzman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2 Jul 2007, at 3:10 PM, Felix Miata wrote: Paul Collins apparently typed: I seem to be having trouble assigning the font-size:62.5% Please note that... Toldja. N ___ omnivision. websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Skip to Content?
I think you missed the major point of the last reply - do you have any evidence that what you are doing _does_ make things easier for AT users? Many of the other good ideas that people have had, have been proved to be counter-productive, such as access keys that conflict with OS shortcuts. I have been told in the past that the way that AT users 'browse' a page is very different to the way that a fully sighted user does, so I am curious as to whether 'skip to' links are any use, particularly when in multiples. Regards, Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Skip to Content?
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nick Gleitzman Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 1:08 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Skip to Content? On 30 Jun 2007, at 9:58 AM, Sander Aarts wrote: So you don't care at all about the cognitively challenged visitors to your site then? You're challenging me now as I don't have a clue what your talking about. How does adding 'skip links' make a site less usable/accessible for cognitively challenged people? I think that was an ironic reference to the KISS principle... Semi-ironic, perhaps. If something is too complex to understand, then adding a map rarely helps. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Skip to Content?
On 7/2/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am curious as to whether 'skip to' links are any use, particularly when in multiples. I can't speak for AT users per se, but it sure is helpful when browsing on my mobile device (a Sony Ericsson V630i... not a PDA, so scrolling is that much more painful). -- Joshua Street http://josh.st/blog/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Page Structure
On Jun 28, 2007, at 8:47 AM, Tony Crockford wrote: Why is the company logo and strap line the most important thing on every page of a web site. OR - why does most important *thing* on the page have to correspond to h1? Take a newspaper: arguably the most important *thing* on the front page is the name of the paper. Does that correspond to h1? I think not: surely h1 belongs to the most important news item on the page? Andrew 109B SE 4th Av Gainesville FL 32601 Cell: 352-870-6661 http://www.andrewmaben.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Page Structure
Hi Andrew, I would say the most important _thing_ in a newspaper is the title of lead story for that part of the day. The analogy to a web document would be the topic name of the page and be marked up as the h1. The name of the newspaper itself doesn't offer any timely information or _news_. Thus, I would limit that name to a masthead, along with a tagline if it's part of the identity/logo of the publishing house. Kind regards, Frank From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andrew Maben Sent: Monday, 02 July, 2007 15:17 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Cc: Andrew Maben Subject: Re: [WSG] Page Structure On Jun 28, 2007, at 8:47 AM, Tony Crockford wrote: Why is the company logo and strap line the most important thing on every page of a web site. OR - why does most important *thing* on the page have to correspond to h1? Take a newspaper: arguably the most important *thing* on the front page is the name of the paper. Does that correspond to h1? I think not: surely h1 belongs to the most important news item on the page? Andrew 109B SE 4th Av Gainesville FL 32601 Cell: 352-870-6661 http://www.andrewmaben. http://www.andrewmaben.com/ net [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Page Structure
Hi, One thing usability studies HAVE found is that, when people are searching for a particulsr item on the Web, they barely glance at the logo and tag line. What they do is scan the headers on the page. If they find an interesting header, they'll speed-read the associated text to see if it's relevant to what they are looking for. If they don't find anything interesting in the headers, they'll move on to another Website. A company's marketing team generally don't understand this behaviour, and thus the most important thing to them is the branding (they get paid for promoting it - it justifies their existence). So if you stress the importance of the logo, etc above the impportance of the actual content you'll satisfy the company marketing goons, but lose potential customers. The choice is yours. I'm also certain that newspapers think the most important thing on their front page is the banner headlines - this is what attracts new customers and increases circulation. They pay people to come up with a better headline than their competitors. Stuart On Mon, July 2, 2007 2:16 pm, Andrew Maben wrote: On Jun 28, 2007, at 8:47 AM, Tony Crockford wrote: Why is the company logo and strap line the most important thing on every page of a web site. OR - why does most important *thing* on the page have to correspond to h1? Take a newspaper: arguably the most important *thing* on the front page is the name of the paper. Does that correspond to h1? I think not: surely h1 belongs to the most important news item on the page? Andrew 109B SE 4th Av Gainesville FL 32601 Cell: 352-870-6661 http://www.andrewmaben.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Stuart Foulstone. http://www.bigeasyweb.co.uk BigEasy Web Design 69 Flockton Court Rockingham Street Sheffield S1 4EB Tel. 07751 413451 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Page Structure
On Behalf Of Frank Palinkas I would say the most important _thing_ in a newspaper is the title of lead story for that part of the day. The I don't know why we're talking about Newspapers and/or Books here. This is not print isn't? There is not such thing that covers and front pages on the web. IMO, because users can get to a document through various ways, I believe the company name is - in fact - the most important thing on the page. --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Page Structure
IF you are doing user-centric design, then the question becomes What's the most important part of the page to the USER? Once you look at it from that viewpoint, then the company name is not the most important. The company name has a visual importance for branding and keeping the clients happy, but it does not have the highest contextual importance for users and SEO. Christie Mason -Original Message- From: Thierry Koblentz I don't know why we're talking about Newspapers and/or Books here. This is not print isn't? There is not such thing that covers and front pages on the web. IMO, because users can get to a document through various ways, I believe the company name is - in fact - the most important thing on the page. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Best practice embedding a Quicktime/Flash video
David Little wrote: These solutions are interesting, but I'm only willing to spend time looking at them if: Seems like you are over-thinking it. swfObject or UFO. I personally prefer the latter mostly due to reasons I stated before (cms... needing access to certain params for dynamic setup.) But both do the job extremely well. For swfObject (I assume UFO too), you can put anything you want in the alt div. Check out this site: http://guilago.se/ View source and find #header... They opted to put a ul menu in the alt div due to the default menu being Flash based. They also you a screen grab of the flash movie... It is pretty seamless... Use the web dev toolbar for FF and turn off JS. Trust us. This is easy. Your page will validate. Move on with your life. :) Cheers, Micky -- Wishlists: http://snipurl.com/1gqpj Switch: http://browsehappy.com/ BCC?: http://snipurl.com/w6f8 My: http://del.icio.us/mhulse *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Footer Problem IE5.x
Just a quick question. Why we still coding/ hacking for IE5??? On 7/2/07, Sarah Peeke (XERT) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Nick, I guess I was hoping to fix the problem(s), rather than just rely on a hack. Other suggestions appreciated. So use a Conditional Comment - ? 2. If I don't include a dreaded hack in my css (which I'd really like to remove because my style sheet doesn't validate) Sarah -- JP2 Designs http://www.jp2designs.com http://www.germworks.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Footer Problem IE5.x
Hi Jermayn, Just a quick question. Why we still coding/ hacking for IE5??? Good point. It's just that the site works very well in IE5.5 *except* for this problem - which, by the way, I've just about fixed. Also, my website browser stats have IE5.x at about 2% - not much I know, but when you also consider Opera, IE5 Mac and Safari also share 1-2% of my audience each, then, by looking after this bunch I'm satisfying roughly 6-8% of my audience. Thanks Sarah -- XERT Communications http://www.xert.com.au/ web design development Geofeat International http://geofeat.com/ all things green, eco-friendly organic The Virtual Collective http://geofeat.com/tvc/ join today help create one world one humanity *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Skip to Content?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] schreef: I think you missed the major point of the last reply - do you have any evidence that what you are doing _does_ make things easier for AT users? I base that on research done by others (I'm not a researcher). For instance http://www.usability.com.au/resources/ozewai2005/#section42 (deep link to recommendations). I have been told in the past that the way that AT users 'browse' a page is very different to the way that a fully sighted user does, so I am curious as to whether 'skip to' links are any use, particularly when in multiples. First of all, it's not all just about AT. Skip links can make things easier for any user of a text browser or device with a small screen like mobile phones. Of course AT users browse a page in a different way than avarege browser users do. Isn't that what the AT is meant for, providing a different way to browse the page? About multiple 'skip to' links... I must admit that I've not seen a test that proves it does add extra accessibility, but neither have I seen one saying it doesn't. Logic thinking tells me that if 1 or 2 'skip to' links improve accessibility, 5 or 7 will probably not make a page inaccessible. You may say that it adds extra links to step through, but in fact it does a similar thing as some ATs do as well: provide shortcuts to major parts of the page. ATs that do so use headers in the page to link to. I do a similar thing although I use far from all headers. By starting with linking to the content and putting the links to the various kinds/levels of navigation at the end of this little 'skip to' menu, the menu itself can easily be skipped for the most part as well. cheers, Sander *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Footer Problem IE5.x
Sarah Peeke (XERT) schreef: Hi Jermayn, Just a quick question. Why we still coding/ hacking for IE5??? Also, my website browser stats have IE5.x at about 2% - not much I know, but when you also consider Opera, IE5 Mac and Safari also share 1-2% of my audience each, then, by looking after this bunch I'm satisfying roughly 6-8% of my audience. The difference is that people who use Opera or Safari chose a decent browser to visit your site. The ones using IE5 don't really seem to matter (or they're still using Win95). Of course it's a good thing to provide every visitor with the best experience possible, but personaly I'd rather optimize for (and thereby stimulate the use of) decent modern browsers than for IE5. cheers, Sander *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Dutch guild of front-end developers in the making
Hello all, Here's some front-end news from the Netherlands: Yesterday, PPK announced that he and others are busy setting up a Dutch guild of Front-end Developers: http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2007/07/gilde_van_front.html (only in Dutch for now). The general idea is to professionalize front-end development, emphesize the fact that it is in fact a branche of its own and to set up a certification system by which customers can easily distinguish between modern developers, using web standards, and old skool table hackers. It even seems that the Dutch government and the Dutch platform of internet companies will start using this certification in the future. cheers, Sander *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***