Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites

2007-07-12 Thread Joseph Taylor
If you are interested in being and all-rounder, don't let anyone scare 
you away from it.  I'm an all-rounder (designer/developer  I would 
call it), a one-man company.  On my sites I do all the planning, 
information layout, designing and coding - everything.  (X)HTML, CSS, 
javascript, PHP, MySQL on every site and before that ASP and MSSQL 
(until 2006).


The design process starts with pencil and paper.  After bot 3-4 sheets 
of scribbles and squares zooming to and fro all over the paper, I have a 
worthy layout done.  Then a wireframe is made in photoshop. Then the 
design is made.  Then it gets chopped and pages marked up.  Then the 
database gets built.  Then the PHP is coded to stitch the front and back 
together.  If time is left over some javascript is sprinkled in to 
taste.  I hope that each site combines all the elements a little more 
smoothly than last time creating a continued progression as I go.


As long as you have an endless appetite for learning more and more all 
over the board, before you know it you'll be pretty far along with your 
knowledge.


Joseph R. B. Taylor

Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


Breton Slivka wrote:



On 7/12/07, *Hassan Schroeder* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


, you are wrong about graphic design.

..but seriously, I have *never* seen an ad for a Graphic Designer
(or worse, mislabeled Web Designer) that looked for anything but
Photoshop/Illustrator, possibly Flash, proficiency. Nothing about
BA/IA/UX/ID. Zip. Zed.

For the vast majority of such positions, it's all about purty. :-)

Seriously. I do know exceptions -- Darrell Sano, who I worked with
at Sun, comes to mind -- but they're few and far between. Far too far.

 
 
That is an error in the Ads you've seen, and in the Advertiser's 
understanding of Graphic Design being just as flawed as yours. This is 
not an error in my definition of Graphic Design. I will not dispute 
that many self proclaimed Graphic Designers hold the same flawed 
view. This is a serious problem, which may be too big for me to 
singlehandedly handle, but a problem nonethless. To give an analogy, 
one could easily advertise for an accountant who is proficient in the 
use of Quicken and TurboTax. However this would be a flawed 
advertisement, as proficiency in those programs does not a qualified 
accountant make. Nor does proficiency in photoshop make a qualified 
Graphic Designer, nor would proficiency in Dreamweaver make a 
qualified Web Developer, nor Proficiency in MySQL a qualified Database 
Designer.
 
Indeed, a common view of Surgeons may be that all they do is cut 
people up and shift things around, discounting any knowledge they may 
have of human anatomy, or medical science. Now imagine if there were a 
bunch of surgeons running around getting hired who had the same flawed 
perspective. It would be very difficult for a proper surgeon to gain 
any sense of credibility wouldn't it? That problem is real in both Web 
Development, and Graphic Design. Given that it's something both fields 
have in common, I would expect us to be able to team up to fight such 
perceptions, but sadly this is not the case for practitioners in 
either profession, as they each suffer from the misperceptions of the 
other.
 
It makes me sad.
 
 

 


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email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
title:Web Designer / Developer
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url:http://sitesbyjoe.com
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Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites

2007-07-12 Thread Stuart Foulstone

Yes, but that's still graphic design of the appearance of Websites, NOT
Website Design.


It's not designing the dynamic structure, usability and accessibility
(using Web standards) essential for good Website design which will hold
across different platforms/browsers in which the user has control (not the
graphic designer).


And no, the visual design should not be the first thing to consider in
meeting a client's requirements.  Too many bad Websites have been produced
in which graphic designers who have pretended to be Website designers and
placed the visual design first and insist that this is paramount.




On Thu, July 12, 2007 12:48 am, Breton Slivka wrote:



 Argghh no! the ignorance! Just stop going about thinking you know what
 you're talking about when it comes to Graphic Design! Graphic Design isn't
 Make it Purdy, Graphic design isn't Learn how to use photoshop. It's
 exactly that perception that leads to awful website after awful website.
 Certainly, aesthetic beauty is a *side effect* of the design process, but
 *do not* make the mistake of thinking that's what graphic design is.

 Graphic design for print design has four aspects:

 Client Needs

 Audience Expectations

 Process (Identifying the problem space, going through many iterations,
 selecting the best solutions, and iterative refinement. This involves a A
 knowledge of the principles of good typography, and the principles of good
 visual design of course, but it is not pure visual design)

 Craftsmanship

 The graphic design process on the web is no different.

 A Good graphic designer (one who is familiar with what graphic design
 actually is, rather than the ignorant stereotype you just displayed)
 Should
 be involved in the process as EARLY and as OFTEN as possible. Not in the
 last step as you suggest. *Most* of this Graphic Designer's time should be
 spent with pencils and paper, and not in Photoshop or Illustrator. A great
 deal of time evaluating the problem at hand, and iteratively simplifying
 the
 solution. This is graphic design.  If this is not what you've found in
 graphic designers in the past, then you have accidentally hired a Stylist,
 or possibly an Illustrator, not a graphic designer.

 Please do not slander my profession in the future.

 And P.S. this is a little tongue in cheek, so don't take too much offense.
 But seriously, you are wrong about graphic design.


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Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites

2007-07-12 Thread Jermayn Parker
yes I agree. 
Graphic design and Web (Graphic) design are different, similar concepts
but different.
what works on print does not always work on web




 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/07/2007 2:48:57 pm 

Yes, but that's still graphic design of the appearance of Websites,
NOT
Website Design.


It's not designing the dynamic structure, usability and accessibility
(using Web standards) essential for good Website design which will
hold
across different platforms/browsers in which the user has control (not
the
graphic designer).


And no, the visual design should not be the first thing to consider in
meeting a client's requirements.  Too many bad Websites have been
produced
in which graphic designers who have pretended to be Website designers
and
placed the visual design first and insist that this is paramount.




On Thu, July 12, 2007 12:48 am, Breton Slivka wrote:



 Argghh no! the ignorance! Just stop going about thinking you know
what
 you're talking about when it comes to Graphic Design! Graphic Design
isn't
 Make it Purdy, Graphic design isn't Learn how to use photoshop.
It's
 exactly that perception that leads to awful website after awful
website.
 Certainly, aesthetic beauty is a *side effect* of the design process,
but
 *do not* make the mistake of thinking that's what graphic design is.

 Graphic design for print design has four aspects:

 Client Needs

 Audience Expectations

 Process (Identifying the problem space, going through many
iterations,
 selecting the best solutions, and iterative refinement. This involves
a A
 knowledge of the principles of good typography, and the principles of
good
 visual design of course, but it is not pure visual design)

 Craftsmanship

 The graphic design process on the web is no different.

 A Good graphic designer (one who is familiar with what graphic
design
 actually is, rather than the ignorant stereotype you just displayed)
 Should
 be involved in the process as EARLY and as OFTEN as possible. Not in
the
 last step as you suggest. *Most* of this Graphic Designer's time
should be
 spent with pencils and paper, and not in Photoshop or Illustrator. A
great
 deal of time evaluating the problem at hand, and iteratively
simplifying
 the
 solution. This is graphic design.  If this is not what you've found
in
 graphic designers in the past, then you have accidentally hired a
Stylist,
 or possibly an Illustrator, not a graphic designer.

 Please do not slander my profession in the future.

 And P.S. this is a little tongue in cheek, so don't take too much
offense.
 But seriously, you are wrong about graphic design.


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Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites

2007-07-12 Thread James Jeffery

All Rounders are good, im one myself aswell, but dont expect to jump in
and become good at everything, thats what im saying. And also, being
an All Rounder is not a good thing sometime's, the main reason being that
jobs
wont be completed as quick as a team of developers could do it, ive lost a
few
clients due to this. I found it better for myself (lower stress levels ect.)
to get
a job in one area, and in spare time, or personal jobs do/learn the rest of
it. Im currently a front-end developer, but it helps me alot to know
back-end.

Money wise, if you work for a company an all rounder wont be on that much
pay
extra, and usually the stress load is alot higher. Ive seen jobs for
back-end developers
at 22k a year, and jobs for front-end (HTML/CSS/JS only) for 28k a year. (UK
Pounds).

But even so, over the years, you will pick up all these languages if your
intrests are strong in web development, and you will become an all rounder
naturally.

:P

On 7/12/07, Joseph Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


If you are interested in being and all-rounder, don't let anyone scare
you away from it.  I'm an all-rounder (designer/developer  I would
call it), a one-man company.  On my sites I do all the planning,
information layout, designing and coding - everything.  (X)HTML, CSS,
javascript, PHP, MySQL on every site and before that ASP and MSSQL
(until 2006).

The design process starts with pencil and paper.  After bot 3-4 sheets
of scribbles and squares zooming to and fro all over the paper, I have a
worthy layout done.  Then a wireframe is made in photoshop. Then the
design is made.  Then it gets chopped and pages marked up.  Then the
database gets built.  Then the PHP is coded to stitch the front and back
together.  If time is left over some javascript is sprinkled in to
taste.  I hope that each site combines all the elements a little more
smoothly than last time creating a continued progression as I go.

As long as you have an endless appetite for learning more and more all
over the board, before you know it you'll be pretty far along with your
knowledge.

Joseph R. B. Taylor

Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


Breton Slivka wrote:


 On 7/12/07, *Hassan Schroeder* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 , you are wrong about graphic design.

 ..but seriously, I have *never* seen an ad for a Graphic Designer
 (or worse, mislabeled Web Designer) that looked for anything but
 Photoshop/Illustrator, possibly Flash, proficiency. Nothing about
 BA/IA/UX/ID. Zip. Zed.

 For the vast majority of such positions, it's all about purty. :-)

 Seriously. I do know exceptions -- Darrell Sano, who I worked with
 at Sun, comes to mind -- but they're few and far between. Far too
far.



 That is an error in the Ads you've seen, and in the Advertiser's
 understanding of Graphic Design being just as flawed as yours. This is
 not an error in my definition of Graphic Design. I will not dispute
 that many self proclaimed Graphic Designers hold the same flawed
 view. This is a serious problem, which may be too big for me to
 singlehandedly handle, but a problem nonethless. To give an analogy,
 one could easily advertise for an accountant who is proficient in the
 use of Quicken and TurboTax. However this would be a flawed
 advertisement, as proficiency in those programs does not a qualified
 accountant make. Nor does proficiency in photoshop make a qualified
 Graphic Designer, nor would proficiency in Dreamweaver make a
 qualified Web Developer, nor Proficiency in MySQL a qualified Database
 Designer.

 Indeed, a common view of Surgeons may be that all they do is cut
 people up and shift things around, discounting any knowledge they may
 have of human anatomy, or medical science. Now imagine if there were a
 bunch of surgeons running around getting hired who had the same flawed
 perspective. It would be very difficult for a proper surgeon to gain
 any sense of credibility wouldn't it? That problem is real in both Web
 Development, and Graphic Design. Given that it's something both fields
 have in common, I would expect us to be able to team up to fight such
 perceptions, but sadly this is not the case for practitioners in
 either profession, as they each suffer from the misperceptions of the
 other.

 It makes me sad.





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Re: [WSG] Making Accessible Flash

2007-07-12 Thread Micky Hulse

Robby Jennings wrote:
I'm in a situation where we're hosting externally created flash files on 
our page.  When embedding these files, what is the best method for 
providing a text alternative? 


How much text alternatives are we talking here?

More detail on what you need would help me. Are these complex 
applications with a lot of content, or do you just need to simply show 
alternative content if the flash file fails to load?



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Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites

2007-07-12 Thread Breton Slivka

On 7/12/07, Stuart Foulstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Yes, but that's still graphic design of the appearance of Websites, NOT
Website Design.


No, it's Graphic Design, Not Graphic Design of the Appearance of
Websites. Qualifying it in such a way confuses matters, and is
terribly innaccurate.



It's not designing the dynamic structure, usability and accessibility
(using Web standards) essential for good Website design which will hold
across different platforms/browsers in which the user has control \


Why on earth not? What definition of graphic design do you have which
excludes those things? Certainly not one that I've given.




And no, the visual design should not be the first thing to consider in
meeting a client's requirements.  Too many bad Websites have been produced
in which graphic designers who have pretended to be Website designers and
placed the visual design first and insist that this is paramount.



Who said anything about Visual design? I explicitly said that graphic
design is *Not* about the visual, or aesthetic appearance. As it
stands, I am concerned with Graphic design, and you are unconcerned
with visual design of the appearance of things.  , which I am
largely unconcerned with as well. The only disagreement here is that I
disagree that you reacted to anything that was in my post.

On the other hand, if you or anyone would like to learn what graphic
design is (Hint, it's not making things pretty. Hint hint.) may I
suggest Meggs' History of Graphic Design. This is also a good book for
the original poster. Others are Eric Speikerman's Don't Steal Sheep,
and  Robert Bringhurst's Elements of Typographic Style, which
admittedly are only about typography, which is just one aspect of
Graphic Design.

I will leave it at that. If you would want to have further discussion
of this with me off list, I would suggest at least humoring my premise
Graphic Design's primary focus is not visual, and you will have a
higher chance of learning something, such as what Graphic Design's
primary focus is.


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Re: [WSG] Making Accessible Flash

2007-07-12 Thread Breton Slivka

There's two approaches, one is to use the Hixie style flash embedding,
and include your text/html content nested inside the inner object
element. This content is visible to text browsers and google. This is
demonstrable by searching for the string:

FAIL (the browser should render some flash content, not this)

, Which is what Hixie put in his original example. (Rather
unfortunately, he didn't put in any useful text).

The other approach is to author a standard's compliant page, with your
text alternative in line, and use a javascript method such as
FlashObject, or UFO to replace the text with a flash movie. Users with
flash installed get the flash movie, users without either Javascript,
or Flash will get standard html content.


On 7/12/07, Micky Hulse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Robby Jennings wrote:
 I'm in a situation where we're hosting externally created flash files on
 our page.  When embedding these files, what is the best method for
 providing a text alternative?

How much text alternatives are we talking here?

More detail on what you need would help me. Are these complex
applications with a lot of content, or do you just need to simply show
alternative content if the flash file fails to load?


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Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites

2007-07-12 Thread Stuart Foulstone
Yes, I was replying the definition of graphic design that you gave.

I quote:


*Most* of this Graphic Designer's time should be spent with pencils and
paper, and not in Photoshop or Illustrator. A great deal of time
evaluating the problem at hand, and iteratively simplifying the solution.
This is graphic design. 


On Thu, July 12, 2007 10:25 am, Breton Slivka wrote:
 On 7/12/07, Stuart Foulstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



 It's not designing the dynamic structure, usability and accessibility
 (using Web standards) essential for good Website design which will hold
 across different platforms/browsers in which the user has control \

 Why on earth not? What definition of graphic design do you have which
 excludes those things? Certainly not one that I've given.





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Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites

2007-07-12 Thread Barney Carroll

Breton Slivka wrote:

I explicitly said that graphic
design is *Not* about the visual, or aesthetic appearance.


Graphic design is an integrally visual craft. I cannot conceive of it in 
any other medium, unless you're saying its real focus is your college 
lectures (it gets even better than that). Graphic design which espouses 
all your favourite typographer's principles but is not aesthetically 
pleasing is utterly worthless (again, outside of the context of the 
lectures).


You have not stated a single thing that graphic design /is/ actually 
about. You have mentioned three books about typography, which is a 
miniscule facet of graphic design.


If people are as severly misguided as you believe, and your opinion is 
this controversial, you owe it to yourself (let alone us) to elaborate 
on why this is the case.



Regards,
Barney


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[WSG] Javascript image rotator

2007-07-12 Thread Paul Collins

Hi all,

I thought this would be an easy one to Google, but yet I find myself
here again asking your professional opinions :)

Trying to find a script for random image rotation on a website.
Meaning the images would rotate every 5 seconds or so automatically,
without the need for a refresh. The only requirements would be:

- A fade effect between the rotating images.
- A fall back so users without javascript will still get a single image.

Any links would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers
Paul


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Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites - ADMIN - very close to closing thread!

2007-07-12 Thread russ - maxdesign
OK, this is not pointed at any one person...

Lets get this thread back on topic and into more helpful, positive dialog -
NOW!

Otherwise the thread will be closed and you will all have to go to your
rooms without supper!

Russ
(with wooden spoon!)


 If people are as severly misguided as you believe, and your opinion is
 this controversial, you owe it to yourself (let alone us) to elaborate
 on why this is the case.




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Re: [WSG] Javascript image rotator

2007-07-12 Thread Barney Carroll
swifr offers cute image modifying effects (including rotation) using 
Flash, and degrades gracefully.


http://www.swfir.com/


However it can't do the other things you're asking for by itself. The 
problem is really the image rotating - everything else could be done 
with lightweight javascript but actually modifying an image is a bit 
beyond its reach and as such that puts you in the Flash object department.



Regards,
Barney


Paul Collins wrote:

Hi all,

I thought this would be an easy one to Google, but yet I find myself
here again asking your professional opinions :)

Trying to find a script for random image rotation on a website.
Meaning the images would rotate every 5 seconds or so automatically,
without the need for a refresh. The only requirements would be:

- A fade effect between the rotating images.
- A fall back so users without javascript will still get a single image.

Any links would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers
Paul



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Re: [WSG] Javascript image rotator

2007-07-12 Thread Paul Collins

Thanks for your reply Barney

Hmm, I have seen a few examples of people using Jscript only to do it.
I don't need to modify the image, just reload a new one every five
seconds or so. I can find scripts to do this, just need the fade bit I
guess.

Apparently, I can't use Flash for this.

Cheers
Paul

On 12/07/07, Barney Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

swifr offers cute image modifying effects (including rotation) using
Flash, and degrades gracefully.

http://www.swfir.com/


However it can't do the other things you're asking for by itself. The
problem is really the image rotating - everything else could be done
with lightweight javascript but actually modifying an image is a bit
beyond its reach and as such that puts you in the Flash object department.


Regards,
Barney


Paul Collins wrote:
 Hi all,

 I thought this would be an easy one to Google, but yet I find myself
 here again asking your professional opinions :)

 Trying to find a script for random image rotation on a website.
 Meaning the images would rotate every 5 seconds or so automatically,
 without the need for a refresh. The only requirements would be:

 - A fade effect between the rotating images.
 - A fall back so users without javascript will still get a single image.

 Any links would be greatly appreciated.

 Cheers
 Paul


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RE: [WSG] Javascript image rotator

2007-07-12 Thread Web Man Walking
I did one for a client of mine.  Feel free to take a look...

http://thepaperchain.co.uk/ 

Not sure where I found the code but it is excellent and without JS on, it
shows an image.

!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!

Chris  Ed successfully ran the 2007 Edinburgh
Marathon for the Meningitis Research
Foundation

We are still looking for sponsors!

Our Progress:   http://wmwmarathon.com/
Sponsor Us: http://justgiving.com/wmwmarathon

!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!

Regards

Ed Henderson

Web Man Walking - web design  usability experts
t: 0131 669 8800
m: 0781 253 6964
f: 0797 062 1532
e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
w: web-man-walking.com
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New technology, old fashioned service


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Collins
Sent: 12 July 2007 12:45
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Javascript image rotator

Hi all,

I thought this would be an easy one to Google, but yet I find myself
here again asking your professional opinions :)

Trying to find a script for random image rotation on a website.
Meaning the images would rotate every 5 seconds or so automatically,
without the need for a refresh. The only requirements would be:

- A fade effect between the rotating images.
- A fall back so users without javascript will still get a single image.

Any links would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers
Paul


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[WSG] RE: WSG Digest

2007-07-12 Thread kunter ilalan


- A fade effect between the rotating images.- A fall back so users without _javascript_ will still get a single image.- Image rotation every 5 sec's
Mr. Paul ..
0. I do not believe that this is any sort of" a wish list " ..instead, we ought to be discussing the web standards and the points why we pursuit such a tradition .. 
1. since you've mentioned Google I assume you know how to lookup the following words: "AJAX web development" This trail wouldopento the ways solving your rotation problem. If you're not upto the standards,one would ask you to use an iframe and META refresh for images to be displayed. 
2. fade effect could be achieved via META tags like page-exit page-enter at relavent files; look for them.
how disappointing that my ever first e-mail to this WSGlistwas not an essayI'd like to share with others, but this one,for about whatsomany months I have been here, it is the first time we experienced a serious spam and irrelavent material. I am trying to build sites that are both maximum accessible - lie - and maximum standards compliant - true but lie again - . They are lies becauseI can not reach upto that point which seems to be beyond the treshold I never get. Even w3.org 's reccomendations on accessibility are not rock solid, thus, they cannot be validated. As for standartds compliant web site, since there are several BROWSERS and their respective standards at market, I don't believe my validated pages are mature enough to be seen flawless at every media. anyway .. greetings from Turkiye to AUS .. 
kunter ilalan
http://atolyekapi.com
http://www.kunterilalan.com





From:wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgTo:wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject:WSG DigestDate:Thu, 12 Jul 2007 21:47:54 1000MIME-Version:1.0Received:from mail.webboy.net ([63.134.198.25]) by bay0-mc1-f4.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2444); Thu, 12 Jul 2007 04:53:14 -0700*WEB STANDARDS GROUP MAIL LIST DIGEST*Due to an upgrade of SmarterMail, digests seem to have had a problem.We are working on it.*From: "Paul Collins" 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 12:44:41 +0100Subject: _javascript_ image rotatorHi all,I thought this would be an easy one to Google, but yet I find myselfhere again asking your professional opinions :)Trying to find a script for random image rotation on a website.Meaning the images would rotate every 5 seconds or so automatically,without the need for a refresh. The only requirements would be:- A fade effect between the rotating images.- A fall back so users without _javascript_ will still get a single image.Any links would be greatly appreciated.CheersPaul**Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: 
http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]**Günüzü belirlerken hava durumu servisi ile MSN size yardimci olsun! Burayi tiklayin! 


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Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites

2007-07-12 Thread Breton Slivka

This issue really pushes my buttons, I will admit. I had my rant (my initial
post), and I naively believed that would be pretty much the end of it. I
forgot that I push buttons when I'm ranting. I've even provided an out in my
last post inviting people to continue this conversation off list. That
didn't quite work out, so here we are still on list. The essential problem
at this point is that since I opened with a rant, I've set myself up a
hostile situation. Hostile situations are not ideal for explaining difficult
and subtle concepts.

I suggest, since this is a hostile context, (which I again admit is mostly
my fault), that most people who would respond to me at this point would not
do so because they are interested in what I have to say. There is a high
risk, regardless of whatever I post, of simply continuing a back and fourth
disagreement which would be inappropriate for this list. I offer two
alternatives.

1. If you are honestly interested in learning about graphic design, read the
books I suggested, as they are a more credible and coherent a source than I
am. Far be it from me to put you off of correct information simply because
it's coming from me, random internet nutter #8.

2. If you really just want to continue the conversation specifically with
me, Please do so off list. Me being a bit irritated at someone's offhand
comment may have been borderline on topic. Me making pronouncements about
what I think graphic design is about is definitely not on topic, and I will
not be lured into making a further ass out of myself.

-Breton


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Re: [WSG] Javascript image rotator

2007-07-12 Thread Paul Collins

Hey thanks for your help Ed,

Got that working now, all looks good. Does work with Javascript turned
off, but only if you put the original image in a NOSCRIPT tag.
Certainly works well, so thanks for all your help.

I found the original here BTW:
http://www.dynamicdrive.com/dynamicindex14/fadeinslideshow.htm

Thanks again
Paul


On 12/07/07, Web Man Walking [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I did one for a client of mine.  Feel free to take a look...

http://thepaperchain.co.uk/

Not sure where I found the code but it is excellent and without JS on, it
shows an image.

!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!

Chris  Ed successfully ran the 2007 Edinburgh
Marathon for the Meningitis Research
Foundation

We are still looking for sponsors!

Our Progress:   http://wmwmarathon.com/
Sponsor Us: http://justgiving.com/wmwmarathon

!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!

Regards

Ed Henderson

Web Man Walking - web design  usability experts
t: 0131 669 8800
m: 0781 253 6964
f: 0797 062 1532
e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
w: web-man-walking.com
a: 48 Eastfield, Edinburgh, EH15 2PN
skype: webmanwalking
msn: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
New technology, old fashioned service


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Collins
Sent: 12 July 2007 12:45
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Javascript image rotator

Hi all,

I thought this would be an easy one to Google, but yet I find myself
here again asking your professional opinions :)

Trying to find a script for random image rotation on a website.
Meaning the images would rotate every 5 seconds or so automatically,
without the need for a refresh. The only requirements would be:

- A fade effect between the rotating images.
- A fall back so users without javascript will still get a single image.

Any links would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers
Paul


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Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites - dont close it yet admin!

2007-07-12 Thread Bruce Kyle
Graphic Design vs Web Design - the keyword here is design, both 
processes use the principles of design to solve a problem. We all use 
repetition, balance, emphasis to create a product suitable to our 
clients/overlords/users. let's not get hung up on the media.


There's no doubt in my mind a part of any good website are the 
graphical/textual elements, but a successful solution must include a 
whole host of other disciplines (useability, accessibility etc).


From my experience a typical web project involves taking an existing 
organisation into the wierd wide web. They already have a fancy logo, 
colour scheme, marketing strategy. The hard work is integrating it into 
a relevant web structure so everyone from grandma with her win98/IE4 to 
young johnny on his playstation 3 browser can use it to find whatever 
they wanted to find when they googled the org's keywords.


Bruce
(broken a few wooden spoons in my time!)



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Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites - THREAD CLOSED!

2007-07-12 Thread russ - maxdesign
Admin

This thread has moved way off topic.
No hope of recovery.

This thread is now officially closed

Thanks
Russ




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Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites

2007-07-12 Thread Andrew Maben

On Jul 11, 2007, at 8:44 PM, Hassan Schroeder wrote:


..but seriously, I have *never* seen an ad for a Graphic Designer
(or worse, mislabeled Web Designer) that looked for anything but
Photoshop/Illustrator, possibly Flash, proficiency. Nothing about
BA/IA/UX/ID. Zip. Zed.


In my experience, also, the position of Web Designer usually means  
specifically Graphic Design for the Web, IA is usually a separate  
discipline/department. But as Breton eloquently pointed out good  
graphic design is *much* more than making purty, and obviously  
design for the web is not the same as print design. The software  
skills required for web design don't even come close to defining a  
good designer, but in today's world no designer, good or indifferent,  
can practice without those skills.


As to the other question addressed in this thread regarding skill  
sets taught in school: even if one intends to specialize, to work  
effectively in a team it is *very* important to have a good working  
knowledge of the scope of the work done by all team members.


Andrew

http://www.andrewmaben.net
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions.





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Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites - THREAD CLOSED

2007-07-12 Thread russ - maxdesign
THIS THREAD IS CLOSED

This is the second reply to a closed thread. No more!

The list guidelines state:

The list administrators (and Core members) reserve the right to unsubscribe
any member from the mail list(s)... Reasons include:

- Repeatedly replying to threads that have been closed

Thanks
Russ



on 13/7/07 12:51 AM, Bruce at wrote:

 ...As long as you have an endless appetite for learning more and more all
 over the board, before you know it you'll be pretty far along with your
 knowledge
 
 There really is no end to it, daily I am updating my skills and seem always
 to reach out
 and make that latest script I just mastered do even more.
 The only problem I have with this as a one man shop is that I spend more
 time learning than working on clients sites.
 
 Alas, I have not yet made my million...one  more skill needed...ten to
 ignore - have no time...so I learn priorities...foundations.
 Web Standards.
 Content Management.
 Then the programming skills. After four or five years doing this full time
 and five part time, being  from a construction background I speak of
 foundations a lot.
 
 Standards are that foundation.
 
 Bruce P
 bkdesign




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Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites - THREAD CLOSED

2007-07-12 Thread Bruce
Hopefully it will be kept in mind that some of us come to our email clients 
and go through the emails from top to bottom.

I'd hate to be unsubscribed because of this practice.
One would have to scan through all messages to make sure its safe to reply 
to any...maybe not a bad idea, but one could get to a point of not saying 
anything then.


Bruce P
- Original Message - 
From: russ - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: Web Standards Group wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 11:07 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites - THREAD CLOSED



THIS THREAD IS CLOSED

This is the second reply to a closed thread. No more!

The list guidelines state:

The list administrators (and Core members) reserve the right to 
unsubscribe

any member from the mail list(s)... Reasons include:

- Repeatedly replying to threads that have been closed

Thanks
Russ



on 13/7/07 12:51 AM, Bruce at wrote:

...As long as you have an endless appetite for learning more and more 
all

over the board, before you know it you'll be pretty far along with your
knowledge

There really is no end to it, daily I am updating my skills and seem 
always

to reach out
and make that latest script I just mastered do even more.
The only problem I have with this as a one man shop is that I spend more
time learning than working on clients sites.

Alas, I have not yet made my million...one  more skill needed...ten to
ignore - have no time...so I learn priorities...foundations.
Web Standards.
Content Management.
Then the programming skills. After four or five years doing this full 
time

and five part time, being  from a construction background I speak of
foundations a lot.

Standards are that foundation.

Bruce P
bkdesign





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Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites - THREAD CLOSED

2007-07-12 Thread Tee G. Peng
Russ maybe there is a way to filter the incoming post that is thread  
closed' from being delivered as soon as the moderator(s) announced it?


So that it saves everyone frustration and irritation? :)

tee


On Jul 12, 2007, at 8:07 AM, russ - maxdesign wrote:


THIS THREAD IS CLOSED

This is the second reply to a closed thread. No more!





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[WSG] Javascript image rotator

2007-07-12 Thread wsg
Hi Paul

 Hmm, I have seen a few examples of people using Jscript only to do it.
I don't need to modify the image, just reload a new one every five
seconds or so. I can find scripts to do this, just need the fade bit I
guess.
Apparently, I can't use Flash for this.

I recently used jquery [1] for this, and a plug in called innerfade [2],
at http://reviews.somuchworld.com

Innerfade iterates through a list of items. For browsers with javascript
off,  quick fix for me was to set all but the first item's visibility to
hidden. A nicer fix might be to pull the additional items through via
ajax.

Once jquery and innerfade were in place, this is the additional javascript
I wrote:

/**
 * Attach to #random_town, and fade in towns
 */
$(document).ready(function () {
  $('#random_town .town').css('display', 'block');
  $('#random_town').innerfade({ speed: 4000, timeout: 6000, type:
'sequence', containerheight: 'auto' });
});

[1] http://jquery
[2] http://medienfreunde.com/lab/innerfade/

PS. The somuchworld site is a work in progress, albeit live.



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[WSG] To target or not

2007-07-12 Thread Matthew Ohlman

Hello List,

I was curious what others opinions were on this issue...

Since W3C doesn't allow the target attribute in XHTML Strict, which do 
you think is better?  Having the window opening up with JavaScript or 
just keeping the page in the same window like W3C wants. 

I assume the reason for not allowing the target attribute is for 
accessibility--because screen readers can not control pop-ups.  
Therefore it seems logical to me to keep it in the same window--even if 
it is an external site, etc.


What does everyone think?

Matthew
--
Matthew Ohlman
www.ohlman.com


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Re: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-12 Thread Jermayn Parker
personally i say keep it in the same window
if your interested I wrote an article about it recently after reading a
few other articles about things similar
http://germworks.net/blog/2007/07/02/usability-and-accessibility-the-foreign-legion-of-web-design/




 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 13/07/2007 10:21:29 am 
Hello List,

I was curious what others opinions were on this issue...

Since W3C doesn't allow the target attribute in XHTML Strict, which do

you think is better?  Having the window opening up with JavaScript or 
just keeping the page in the same window like W3C wants. 

I assume the reason for not allowing the target attribute is for 
accessibility--because screen readers can not control pop-ups.  
Therefore it seems logical to me to keep it in the same window--even if

it is an external site, etc.

What does everyone think?

Matthew
-- 
Matthew Ohlman
www.ohlman.com 


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of Western Australia's Email security requirements for inbound
transmission. 

**


The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of 
Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for outbound 
transmission. 

This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential and privileged. 
If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, 
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RE: [WSG] To target or not

2007-07-12 Thread Frank Palinkas
Hi Matthew,

Being the tech writer for a software dev division, when calling
context-sensitive help from a web form is needed I use unobtrusive
DOM/Javascript to either let a user open a popup within the app window
(traditional method) or call the help from within (embedded) each form field.
I have a new Fast Track tutorial in final draft demonstrating how to
accomplish both methods titled Calling Context-Sensitive Help with
Unobtrusive DOM/JavaScript. These methods are not limited to web forms and
can be applied in other ways if needed. If it would help you, please contact
me off-list and I can email you (or anyone else interested) a small zipped
package of the tutorial project folder containing the markup, content, .css,
images and DOM/JavaScript.

Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help
W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert
M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+   
Senior Technical Communicator 
Web Standards  Accessibility Designer 

website: http://frank.helpware.net 
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
Member: 
Society for Technical Communications (S.T.C.) 
Guild of Accessible Web Designers (G.A.W.D.S.)
Web Standards Group (W.S.G.) 

Supergroup Trading Ltd. 
Sandhurst, Gauteng, South Africa 
website: http://www.supergroup.co.za

Work:   +27 011 523 4931 
Home:   +27 011 455 5287 
Fax:    +27 011 455 3112 
Mobile: +27 074 109 1908



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matthew Ohlman
Sent: Friday, 13 July, 2007 4:21 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] To target or not

Hello List,

I was curious what others opinions were on this issue...

Since W3C doesn't allow the target attribute in XHTML Strict, which do 
you think is better?  Having the window opening up with JavaScript or 
just keeping the page in the same window like W3C wants. 

I assume the reason for not allowing the target attribute is for 
accessibility--because screen readers can not control pop-ups.  
Therefore it seems logical to me to keep it in the same window--even if 
it is an external site, etc.

What does everyone think?

Matthew
-- 
Matthew Ohlman
www.ohlman.com


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Re: [WSG] Javascript image rotator

2007-07-12 Thread Micky Hulse

For my last project I used this:

http://www.electricprism.com/aeron/slideshow/

You can simplify it down to fading transitions with random image 
display. It will display a placeholder image of your choosing if JS is 
not available.


I have yet to find an equivalent JS slideshow.

Uses mootools. I am not the biggest fan of the mootools documentation 
and/or forum support, but it is pretty lieghtweight js framework.


The Slideshow itself is pretty good from a JS perspective... I mean, I 
do think it could be a little more decoupled from the CSS/HTML, but 
overall I think it is well written.


Good luck!
Cheers,
Micky


--
Wishlists: http://snipurl.com/1gqpj
   Switch: http://browsehappy.com/
 BCC?: http://snipurl.com/w6f8
   My: http://del.icio.us/mhulse


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RE: [WSG] Javascript image rotator

2007-07-12 Thread ByteDreams
Oops, seems I sent the msg too soon, and someone already recommended the
same site.
Another thought, instead of searching image rotator, have you searched for
slideshows?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Collins
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 7:45 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Javascript image rotator

Hi all,

I thought this would be an easy one to Google, but yet I find myself
here again asking your professional opinions :)

Trying to find a script for random image rotation on a website.
Meaning the images would rotate every 5 seconds or so automatically,
without the need for a refresh. The only requirements would be:

- A fade effect between the rotating images.
- A fall back so users without javascript will still get a single image.

Any links would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers
Paul


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RE: [WSG] Javascript image rotator

2007-07-12 Thread ByteDreams
On this jQuery examples page is a something similar to what you want, using
the jQuery library and unordered list with links.  I guess if you enclose
the script within a condition like if javascript=true that would take care
of folks that disable javascript.  I'm not a javascript programmer, however,
but you might be able to figure something out.

http://medienfreunde.com/lab/innerfade/

ByteDreams

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Collins
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 7:45 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Javascript image rotator

Hi all,

I thought this would be an easy one to Google, but yet I find myself
here again asking your professional opinions :)

Trying to find a script for random image rotation on a website.
Meaning the images would rotate every 5 seconds or so automatically,
without the need for a refresh. The only requirements would be:

- A fade effect between the rotating images.
- A fall back so users without javascript will still get a single image.

Any links would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers
Paul


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