Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites
If you are interested in being and all-rounder, don't let anyone scare you away from it. I'm an all-rounder (designer/developer I would call it), a one-man company. On my sites I do all the planning, information layout, designing and coding - everything. (X)HTML, CSS, javascript, PHP, MySQL on every site and before that ASP and MSSQL (until 2006). The design process starts with pencil and paper. After bot 3-4 sheets of scribbles and squares zooming to and fro all over the paper, I have a worthy layout done. Then a wireframe is made in photoshop. Then the design is made. Then it gets chopped and pages marked up. Then the database gets built. Then the PHP is coded to stitch the front and back together. If time is left over some javascript is sprinkled in to taste. I hope that each site combines all the elements a little more smoothly than last time creating a continued progression as I go. As long as you have an endless appetite for learning more and more all over the board, before you know it you'll be pretty far along with your knowledge. Joseph R. B. Taylor Sites by Joe, LLC http://sitesbyjoe.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] Breton Slivka wrote: On 7/12/07, *Hassan Schroeder* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: , you are wrong about graphic design. ..but seriously, I have *never* seen an ad for a Graphic Designer (or worse, mislabeled Web Designer) that looked for anything but Photoshop/Illustrator, possibly Flash, proficiency. Nothing about BA/IA/UX/ID. Zip. Zed. For the vast majority of such positions, it's all about purty. :-) Seriously. I do know exceptions -- Darrell Sano, who I worked with at Sun, comes to mind -- but they're few and far between. Far too far. That is an error in the Ads you've seen, and in the Advertiser's understanding of Graphic Design being just as flawed as yours. This is not an error in my definition of Graphic Design. I will not dispute that many self proclaimed Graphic Designers hold the same flawed view. This is a serious problem, which may be too big for me to singlehandedly handle, but a problem nonethless. To give an analogy, one could easily advertise for an accountant who is proficient in the use of Quicken and TurboTax. However this would be a flawed advertisement, as proficiency in those programs does not a qualified accountant make. Nor does proficiency in photoshop make a qualified Graphic Designer, nor would proficiency in Dreamweaver make a qualified Web Developer, nor Proficiency in MySQL a qualified Database Designer. Indeed, a common view of Surgeons may be that all they do is cut people up and shift things around, discounting any knowledge they may have of human anatomy, or medical science. Now imagine if there were a bunch of surgeons running around getting hired who had the same flawed perspective. It would be very difficult for a proper surgeon to gain any sense of credibility wouldn't it? That problem is real in both Web Development, and Graphic Design. Given that it's something both fields have in common, I would expect us to be able to team up to fight such perceptions, but sadly this is not the case for practitioners in either profession, as they each suffer from the misperceptions of the other. It makes me sad. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***begin:vcard fn:Joseph Taylor n:Taylor;Joseph org:Sites by Joe, LLC adr:;;408 Route 47 South;Cape May Court House;NJ;08210;USA email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Web Designer / Developer tel;work:609-335-3076 tel;cell:609-335-3076 x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://sitesbyjoe.com version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites
Yes, but that's still graphic design of the appearance of Websites, NOT Website Design. It's not designing the dynamic structure, usability and accessibility (using Web standards) essential for good Website design which will hold across different platforms/browsers in which the user has control (not the graphic designer). And no, the visual design should not be the first thing to consider in meeting a client's requirements. Too many bad Websites have been produced in which graphic designers who have pretended to be Website designers and placed the visual design first and insist that this is paramount. On Thu, July 12, 2007 12:48 am, Breton Slivka wrote: Argghh no! the ignorance! Just stop going about thinking you know what you're talking about when it comes to Graphic Design! Graphic Design isn't Make it Purdy, Graphic design isn't Learn how to use photoshop. It's exactly that perception that leads to awful website after awful website. Certainly, aesthetic beauty is a *side effect* of the design process, but *do not* make the mistake of thinking that's what graphic design is. Graphic design for print design has four aspects: Client Needs Audience Expectations Process (Identifying the problem space, going through many iterations, selecting the best solutions, and iterative refinement. This involves a A knowledge of the principles of good typography, and the principles of good visual design of course, but it is not pure visual design) Craftsmanship The graphic design process on the web is no different. A Good graphic designer (one who is familiar with what graphic design actually is, rather than the ignorant stereotype you just displayed) Should be involved in the process as EARLY and as OFTEN as possible. Not in the last step as you suggest. *Most* of this Graphic Designer's time should be spent with pencils and paper, and not in Photoshop or Illustrator. A great deal of time evaluating the problem at hand, and iteratively simplifying the solution. This is graphic design. If this is not what you've found in graphic designers in the past, then you have accidentally hired a Stylist, or possibly an Illustrator, not a graphic designer. Please do not slander my profession in the future. And P.S. this is a little tongue in cheek, so don't take too much offense. But seriously, you are wrong about graphic design. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites
yes I agree. Graphic design and Web (Graphic) design are different, similar concepts but different. what works on print does not always work on web [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/07/2007 2:48:57 pm Yes, but that's still graphic design of the appearance of Websites, NOT Website Design. It's not designing the dynamic structure, usability and accessibility (using Web standards) essential for good Website design which will hold across different platforms/browsers in which the user has control (not the graphic designer). And no, the visual design should not be the first thing to consider in meeting a client's requirements. Too many bad Websites have been produced in which graphic designers who have pretended to be Website designers and placed the visual design first and insist that this is paramount. On Thu, July 12, 2007 12:48 am, Breton Slivka wrote: Argghh no! the ignorance! Just stop going about thinking you know what you're talking about when it comes to Graphic Design! Graphic Design isn't Make it Purdy, Graphic design isn't Learn how to use photoshop. It's exactly that perception that leads to awful website after awful website. Certainly, aesthetic beauty is a *side effect* of the design process, but *do not* make the mistake of thinking that's what graphic design is. Graphic design for print design has four aspects: Client Needs Audience Expectations Process (Identifying the problem space, going through many iterations, selecting the best solutions, and iterative refinement. This involves a A knowledge of the principles of good typography, and the principles of good visual design of course, but it is not pure visual design) Craftsmanship The graphic design process on the web is no different. A Good graphic designer (one who is familiar with what graphic design actually is, rather than the ignorant stereotype you just displayed) Should be involved in the process as EARLY and as OFTEN as possible. Not in the last step as you suggest. *Most* of this Graphic Designer's time should be spent with pencils and paper, and not in Photoshop or Illustrator. A great deal of time evaluating the problem at hand, and iteratively simplifying the solution. This is graphic design. If this is not what you've found in graphic designers in the past, then you have accidentally hired a Stylist, or possibly an Illustrator, not a graphic designer. Please do not slander my profession in the future. And P.S. this is a little tongue in cheek, so don't take too much offense. But seriously, you are wrong about graphic design. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ** The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security requirements for inbound transmission. ** The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for outbound transmission. This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential and privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email (facsimile) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email (facsimile) in error please contact the Insurance Commission. Web: www.icwa.wa.gov.au Phone: +61 08 9264 * *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites
All Rounders are good, im one myself aswell, but dont expect to jump in and become good at everything, thats what im saying. And also, being an All Rounder is not a good thing sometime's, the main reason being that jobs wont be completed as quick as a team of developers could do it, ive lost a few clients due to this. I found it better for myself (lower stress levels ect.) to get a job in one area, and in spare time, or personal jobs do/learn the rest of it. Im currently a front-end developer, but it helps me alot to know back-end. Money wise, if you work for a company an all rounder wont be on that much pay extra, and usually the stress load is alot higher. Ive seen jobs for back-end developers at 22k a year, and jobs for front-end (HTML/CSS/JS only) for 28k a year. (UK Pounds). But even so, over the years, you will pick up all these languages if your intrests are strong in web development, and you will become an all rounder naturally. :P On 7/12/07, Joseph Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you are interested in being and all-rounder, don't let anyone scare you away from it. I'm an all-rounder (designer/developer I would call it), a one-man company. On my sites I do all the planning, information layout, designing and coding - everything. (X)HTML, CSS, javascript, PHP, MySQL on every site and before that ASP and MSSQL (until 2006). The design process starts with pencil and paper. After bot 3-4 sheets of scribbles and squares zooming to and fro all over the paper, I have a worthy layout done. Then a wireframe is made in photoshop. Then the design is made. Then it gets chopped and pages marked up. Then the database gets built. Then the PHP is coded to stitch the front and back together. If time is left over some javascript is sprinkled in to taste. I hope that each site combines all the elements a little more smoothly than last time creating a continued progression as I go. As long as you have an endless appetite for learning more and more all over the board, before you know it you'll be pretty far along with your knowledge. Joseph R. B. Taylor Sites by Joe, LLC http://sitesbyjoe.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] Breton Slivka wrote: On 7/12/07, *Hassan Schroeder* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: , you are wrong about graphic design. ..but seriously, I have *never* seen an ad for a Graphic Designer (or worse, mislabeled Web Designer) that looked for anything but Photoshop/Illustrator, possibly Flash, proficiency. Nothing about BA/IA/UX/ID. Zip. Zed. For the vast majority of such positions, it's all about purty. :-) Seriously. I do know exceptions -- Darrell Sano, who I worked with at Sun, comes to mind -- but they're few and far between. Far too far. That is an error in the Ads you've seen, and in the Advertiser's understanding of Graphic Design being just as flawed as yours. This is not an error in my definition of Graphic Design. I will not dispute that many self proclaimed Graphic Designers hold the same flawed view. This is a serious problem, which may be too big for me to singlehandedly handle, but a problem nonethless. To give an analogy, one could easily advertise for an accountant who is proficient in the use of Quicken and TurboTax. However this would be a flawed advertisement, as proficiency in those programs does not a qualified accountant make. Nor does proficiency in photoshop make a qualified Graphic Designer, nor would proficiency in Dreamweaver make a qualified Web Developer, nor Proficiency in MySQL a qualified Database Designer. Indeed, a common view of Surgeons may be that all they do is cut people up and shift things around, discounting any knowledge they may have of human anatomy, or medical science. Now imagine if there were a bunch of surgeons running around getting hired who had the same flawed perspective. It would be very difficult for a proper surgeon to gain any sense of credibility wouldn't it? That problem is real in both Web Development, and Graphic Design. Given that it's something both fields have in common, I would expect us to be able to team up to fight such perceptions, but sadly this is not the case for practitioners in either profession, as they each suffer from the misperceptions of the other. It makes me sad. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ***
Re: [WSG] Making Accessible Flash
Robby Jennings wrote: I'm in a situation where we're hosting externally created flash files on our page. When embedding these files, what is the best method for providing a text alternative? How much text alternatives are we talking here? More detail on what you need would help me. Are these complex applications with a lot of content, or do you just need to simply show alternative content if the flash file fails to load? -- Wishlists: http://snipurl.com/1gqpj Switch: http://browsehappy.com/ BCC?: http://snipurl.com/w6f8 My: http://del.icio.us/mhulse *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites
On 7/12/07, Stuart Foulstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, but that's still graphic design of the appearance of Websites, NOT Website Design. No, it's Graphic Design, Not Graphic Design of the Appearance of Websites. Qualifying it in such a way confuses matters, and is terribly innaccurate. It's not designing the dynamic structure, usability and accessibility (using Web standards) essential for good Website design which will hold across different platforms/browsers in which the user has control \ Why on earth not? What definition of graphic design do you have which excludes those things? Certainly not one that I've given. And no, the visual design should not be the first thing to consider in meeting a client's requirements. Too many bad Websites have been produced in which graphic designers who have pretended to be Website designers and placed the visual design first and insist that this is paramount. Who said anything about Visual design? I explicitly said that graphic design is *Not* about the visual, or aesthetic appearance. As it stands, I am concerned with Graphic design, and you are unconcerned with visual design of the appearance of things. , which I am largely unconcerned with as well. The only disagreement here is that I disagree that you reacted to anything that was in my post. On the other hand, if you or anyone would like to learn what graphic design is (Hint, it's not making things pretty. Hint hint.) may I suggest Meggs' History of Graphic Design. This is also a good book for the original poster. Others are Eric Speikerman's Don't Steal Sheep, and Robert Bringhurst's Elements of Typographic Style, which admittedly are only about typography, which is just one aspect of Graphic Design. I will leave it at that. If you would want to have further discussion of this with me off list, I would suggest at least humoring my premise Graphic Design's primary focus is not visual, and you will have a higher chance of learning something, such as what Graphic Design's primary focus is. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Making Accessible Flash
There's two approaches, one is to use the Hixie style flash embedding, and include your text/html content nested inside the inner object element. This content is visible to text browsers and google. This is demonstrable by searching for the string: FAIL (the browser should render some flash content, not this) , Which is what Hixie put in his original example. (Rather unfortunately, he didn't put in any useful text). The other approach is to author a standard's compliant page, with your text alternative in line, and use a javascript method such as FlashObject, or UFO to replace the text with a flash movie. Users with flash installed get the flash movie, users without either Javascript, or Flash will get standard html content. On 7/12/07, Micky Hulse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robby Jennings wrote: I'm in a situation where we're hosting externally created flash files on our page. When embedding these files, what is the best method for providing a text alternative? How much text alternatives are we talking here? More detail on what you need would help me. Are these complex applications with a lot of content, or do you just need to simply show alternative content if the flash file fails to load? -- Wishlists: http://snipurl.com/1gqpj Switch: http://browsehappy.com/ BCC?: http://snipurl.com/w6f8 My: http://del.icio.us/mhulse *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites
Yes, I was replying the definition of graphic design that you gave. I quote: *Most* of this Graphic Designer's time should be spent with pencils and paper, and not in Photoshop or Illustrator. A great deal of time evaluating the problem at hand, and iteratively simplifying the solution. This is graphic design. On Thu, July 12, 2007 10:25 am, Breton Slivka wrote: On 7/12/07, Stuart Foulstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's not designing the dynamic structure, usability and accessibility (using Web standards) essential for good Website design which will hold across different platforms/browsers in which the user has control \ Why on earth not? What definition of graphic design do you have which excludes those things? Certainly not one that I've given. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites
Breton Slivka wrote: I explicitly said that graphic design is *Not* about the visual, or aesthetic appearance. Graphic design is an integrally visual craft. I cannot conceive of it in any other medium, unless you're saying its real focus is your college lectures (it gets even better than that). Graphic design which espouses all your favourite typographer's principles but is not aesthetically pleasing is utterly worthless (again, outside of the context of the lectures). You have not stated a single thing that graphic design /is/ actually about. You have mentioned three books about typography, which is a miniscule facet of graphic design. If people are as severly misguided as you believe, and your opinion is this controversial, you owe it to yourself (let alone us) to elaborate on why this is the case. Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Javascript image rotator
Hi all, I thought this would be an easy one to Google, but yet I find myself here again asking your professional opinions :) Trying to find a script for random image rotation on a website. Meaning the images would rotate every 5 seconds or so automatically, without the need for a refresh. The only requirements would be: - A fade effect between the rotating images. - A fall back so users without javascript will still get a single image. Any links would be greatly appreciated. Cheers Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites - ADMIN - very close to closing thread!
OK, this is not pointed at any one person... Lets get this thread back on topic and into more helpful, positive dialog - NOW! Otherwise the thread will be closed and you will all have to go to your rooms without supper! Russ (with wooden spoon!) If people are as severly misguided as you believe, and your opinion is this controversial, you owe it to yourself (let alone us) to elaborate on why this is the case. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Javascript image rotator
swifr offers cute image modifying effects (including rotation) using Flash, and degrades gracefully. http://www.swfir.com/ However it can't do the other things you're asking for by itself. The problem is really the image rotating - everything else could be done with lightweight javascript but actually modifying an image is a bit beyond its reach and as such that puts you in the Flash object department. Regards, Barney Paul Collins wrote: Hi all, I thought this would be an easy one to Google, but yet I find myself here again asking your professional opinions :) Trying to find a script for random image rotation on a website. Meaning the images would rotate every 5 seconds or so automatically, without the need for a refresh. The only requirements would be: - A fade effect between the rotating images. - A fall back so users without javascript will still get a single image. Any links would be greatly appreciated. Cheers Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Javascript image rotator
Thanks for your reply Barney Hmm, I have seen a few examples of people using Jscript only to do it. I don't need to modify the image, just reload a new one every five seconds or so. I can find scripts to do this, just need the fade bit I guess. Apparently, I can't use Flash for this. Cheers Paul On 12/07/07, Barney Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: swifr offers cute image modifying effects (including rotation) using Flash, and degrades gracefully. http://www.swfir.com/ However it can't do the other things you're asking for by itself. The problem is really the image rotating - everything else could be done with lightweight javascript but actually modifying an image is a bit beyond its reach and as such that puts you in the Flash object department. Regards, Barney Paul Collins wrote: Hi all, I thought this would be an easy one to Google, but yet I find myself here again asking your professional opinions :) Trying to find a script for random image rotation on a website. Meaning the images would rotate every 5 seconds or so automatically, without the need for a refresh. The only requirements would be: - A fade effect between the rotating images. - A fall back so users without javascript will still get a single image. Any links would be greatly appreciated. Cheers Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Javascript image rotator
I did one for a client of mine. Feel free to take a look... http://thepaperchain.co.uk/ Not sure where I found the code but it is excellent and without JS on, it shows an image. !*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*! Chris Ed successfully ran the 2007 Edinburgh Marathon for the Meningitis Research Foundation We are still looking for sponsors! Our Progress: http://wmwmarathon.com/ Sponsor Us: http://justgiving.com/wmwmarathon !*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*! Regards Ed Henderson Web Man Walking - web design usability experts t: 0131 669 8800 m: 0781 253 6964 f: 0797 062 1532 e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] w: web-man-walking.com a: 48 Eastfield, Edinburgh, EH15 2PN skype: webmanwalking msn: [EMAIL PROTECTED] New technology, old fashioned service -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Collins Sent: 12 July 2007 12:45 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Javascript image rotator Hi all, I thought this would be an easy one to Google, but yet I find myself here again asking your professional opinions :) Trying to find a script for random image rotation on a website. Meaning the images would rotate every 5 seconds or so automatically, without the need for a refresh. The only requirements would be: - A fade effect between the rotating images. - A fall back so users without javascript will still get a single image. Any links would be greatly appreciated. Cheers Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] RE: WSG Digest
- A fade effect between the rotating images.- A fall back so users without _javascript_ will still get a single image.- Image rotation every 5 sec's Mr. Paul .. 0. I do not believe that this is any sort of" a wish list " ..instead, we ought to be discussing the web standards and the points why we pursuit such a tradition .. 1. since you've mentioned Google I assume you know how to lookup the following words: "AJAX web development" This trail wouldopento the ways solving your rotation problem. If you're not upto the standards,one would ask you to use an iframe and META refresh for images to be displayed. 2. fade effect could be achieved via META tags like page-exit page-enter at relavent files; look for them. how disappointing that my ever first e-mail to this WSGlistwas not an essayI'd like to share with others, but this one,for about whatsomany months I have been here, it is the first time we experienced a serious spam and irrelavent material. I am trying to build sites that are both maximum accessible - lie - and maximum standards compliant - true but lie again - . They are lies becauseI can not reach upto that point which seems to be beyond the treshold I never get. Even w3.org 's reccomendations on accessibility are not rock solid, thus, they cannot be validated. As for standartds compliant web site, since there are several BROWSERS and their respective standards at market, I don't believe my validated pages are mature enough to be seen flawless at every media. anyway .. greetings from Turkiye to AUS .. kunter ilalan http://atolyekapi.com http://www.kunterilalan.com From:wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgTo:wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject:WSG DigestDate:Thu, 12 Jul 2007 21:47:54 1000MIME-Version:1.0Received:from mail.webboy.net ([63.134.198.25]) by bay0-mc1-f4.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2444); Thu, 12 Jul 2007 04:53:14 -0700*WEB STANDARDS GROUP MAIL LIST DIGEST*Due to an upgrade of SmarterMail, digests seem to have had a problem.We are working on it.*From: "Paul Collins" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 12:44:41 +0100Subject: _javascript_ image rotatorHi all,I thought this would be an easy one to Google, but yet I find myselfhere again asking your professional opinions :)Trying to find a script for random image rotation on a website.Meaning the images would rotate every 5 seconds or so automatically,without the need for a refresh. The only requirements would be:- A fade effect between the rotating images.- A fall back so users without _javascript_ will still get a single image.Any links would be greatly appreciated.CheersPaul**Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]**Günüzü belirlerken hava durumu servisi ile MSN size yardimci olsun! Burayi tiklayin! ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites
This issue really pushes my buttons, I will admit. I had my rant (my initial post), and I naively believed that would be pretty much the end of it. I forgot that I push buttons when I'm ranting. I've even provided an out in my last post inviting people to continue this conversation off list. That didn't quite work out, so here we are still on list. The essential problem at this point is that since I opened with a rant, I've set myself up a hostile situation. Hostile situations are not ideal for explaining difficult and subtle concepts. I suggest, since this is a hostile context, (which I again admit is mostly my fault), that most people who would respond to me at this point would not do so because they are interested in what I have to say. There is a high risk, regardless of whatever I post, of simply continuing a back and fourth disagreement which would be inappropriate for this list. I offer two alternatives. 1. If you are honestly interested in learning about graphic design, read the books I suggested, as they are a more credible and coherent a source than I am. Far be it from me to put you off of correct information simply because it's coming from me, random internet nutter #8. 2. If you really just want to continue the conversation specifically with me, Please do so off list. Me being a bit irritated at someone's offhand comment may have been borderline on topic. Me making pronouncements about what I think graphic design is about is definitely not on topic, and I will not be lured into making a further ass out of myself. -Breton *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Javascript image rotator
Hey thanks for your help Ed, Got that working now, all looks good. Does work with Javascript turned off, but only if you put the original image in a NOSCRIPT tag. Certainly works well, so thanks for all your help. I found the original here BTW: http://www.dynamicdrive.com/dynamicindex14/fadeinslideshow.htm Thanks again Paul On 12/07/07, Web Man Walking [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I did one for a client of mine. Feel free to take a look... http://thepaperchain.co.uk/ Not sure where I found the code but it is excellent and without JS on, it shows an image. !*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*! Chris Ed successfully ran the 2007 Edinburgh Marathon for the Meningitis Research Foundation We are still looking for sponsors! Our Progress: http://wmwmarathon.com/ Sponsor Us: http://justgiving.com/wmwmarathon !*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*!*! Regards Ed Henderson Web Man Walking - web design usability experts t: 0131 669 8800 m: 0781 253 6964 f: 0797 062 1532 e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] w: web-man-walking.com a: 48 Eastfield, Edinburgh, EH15 2PN skype: webmanwalking msn: [EMAIL PROTECTED] New technology, old fashioned service -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Collins Sent: 12 July 2007 12:45 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Javascript image rotator Hi all, I thought this would be an easy one to Google, but yet I find myself here again asking your professional opinions :) Trying to find a script for random image rotation on a website. Meaning the images would rotate every 5 seconds or so automatically, without the need for a refresh. The only requirements would be: - A fade effect between the rotating images. - A fall back so users without javascript will still get a single image. Any links would be greatly appreciated. Cheers Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites - dont close it yet admin!
Graphic Design vs Web Design - the keyword here is design, both processes use the principles of design to solve a problem. We all use repetition, balance, emphasis to create a product suitable to our clients/overlords/users. let's not get hung up on the media. There's no doubt in my mind a part of any good website are the graphical/textual elements, but a successful solution must include a whole host of other disciplines (useability, accessibility etc). From my experience a typical web project involves taking an existing organisation into the wierd wide web. They already have a fancy logo, colour scheme, marketing strategy. The hard work is integrating it into a relevant web structure so everyone from grandma with her win98/IE4 to young johnny on his playstation 3 browser can use it to find whatever they wanted to find when they googled the org's keywords. Bruce (broken a few wooden spoons in my time!) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites - THREAD CLOSED!
Admin This thread has moved way off topic. No hope of recovery. This thread is now officially closed Thanks Russ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites
On Jul 11, 2007, at 8:44 PM, Hassan Schroeder wrote: ..but seriously, I have *never* seen an ad for a Graphic Designer (or worse, mislabeled Web Designer) that looked for anything but Photoshop/Illustrator, possibly Flash, proficiency. Nothing about BA/IA/UX/ID. Zip. Zed. In my experience, also, the position of Web Designer usually means specifically Graphic Design for the Web, IA is usually a separate discipline/department. But as Breton eloquently pointed out good graphic design is *much* more than making purty, and obviously design for the web is not the same as print design. The software skills required for web design don't even come close to defining a good designer, but in today's world no designer, good or indifferent, can practice without those skills. As to the other question addressed in this thread regarding skill sets taught in school: even if one intends to specialize, to work effectively in a team it is *very* important to have a good working knowledge of the scope of the work done by all team members. Andrew http://www.andrewmaben.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites - THREAD CLOSED
THIS THREAD IS CLOSED This is the second reply to a closed thread. No more! The list guidelines state: The list administrators (and Core members) reserve the right to unsubscribe any member from the mail list(s)... Reasons include: - Repeatedly replying to threads that have been closed Thanks Russ on 13/7/07 12:51 AM, Bruce at wrote: ...As long as you have an endless appetite for learning more and more all over the board, before you know it you'll be pretty far along with your knowledge There really is no end to it, daily I am updating my skills and seem always to reach out and make that latest script I just mastered do even more. The only problem I have with this as a one man shop is that I spend more time learning than working on clients sites. Alas, I have not yet made my million...one more skill needed...ten to ignore - have no time...so I learn priorities...foundations. Web Standards. Content Management. Then the programming skills. After four or five years doing this full time and five part time, being from a construction background I speak of foundations a lot. Standards are that foundation. Bruce P bkdesign *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites - THREAD CLOSED
Hopefully it will be kept in mind that some of us come to our email clients and go through the emails from top to bottom. I'd hate to be unsubscribed because of this practice. One would have to scan through all messages to make sure its safe to reply to any...maybe not a bad idea, but one could get to a point of not saying anything then. Bruce P - Original Message - From: russ - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Web Standards Group wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 11:07 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites - THREAD CLOSED THIS THREAD IS CLOSED This is the second reply to a closed thread. No more! The list guidelines state: The list administrators (and Core members) reserve the right to unsubscribe any member from the mail list(s)... Reasons include: - Repeatedly replying to threads that have been closed Thanks Russ on 13/7/07 12:51 AM, Bruce at wrote: ...As long as you have an endless appetite for learning more and more all over the board, before you know it you'll be pretty far along with your knowledge There really is no end to it, daily I am updating my skills and seem always to reach out and make that latest script I just mastered do even more. The only problem I have with this as a one man shop is that I spend more time learning than working on clients sites. Alas, I have not yet made my million...one more skill needed...ten to ignore - have no time...so I learn priorities...foundations. Web Standards. Content Management. Then the programming skills. After four or five years doing this full time and five part time, being from a construction background I speak of foundations a lot. Standards are that foundation. Bruce P bkdesign *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Visual Design Of Websites - THREAD CLOSED
Russ maybe there is a way to filter the incoming post that is thread closed' from being delivered as soon as the moderator(s) announced it? So that it saves everyone frustration and irritation? :) tee On Jul 12, 2007, at 8:07 AM, russ - maxdesign wrote: THIS THREAD IS CLOSED This is the second reply to a closed thread. No more! *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Javascript image rotator
Hi Paul Hmm, I have seen a few examples of people using Jscript only to do it. I don't need to modify the image, just reload a new one every five seconds or so. I can find scripts to do this, just need the fade bit I guess. Apparently, I can't use Flash for this. I recently used jquery [1] for this, and a plug in called innerfade [2], at http://reviews.somuchworld.com Innerfade iterates through a list of items. For browsers with javascript off, quick fix for me was to set all but the first item's visibility to hidden. A nicer fix might be to pull the additional items through via ajax. Once jquery and innerfade were in place, this is the additional javascript I wrote: /** * Attach to #random_town, and fade in towns */ $(document).ready(function () { $('#random_town .town').css('display', 'block'); $('#random_town').innerfade({ speed: 4000, timeout: 6000, type: 'sequence', containerheight: 'auto' }); }); [1] http://jquery [2] http://medienfreunde.com/lab/innerfade/ PS. The somuchworld site is a work in progress, albeit live. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] To target or not
Hello List, I was curious what others opinions were on this issue... Since W3C doesn't allow the target attribute in XHTML Strict, which do you think is better? Having the window opening up with JavaScript or just keeping the page in the same window like W3C wants. I assume the reason for not allowing the target attribute is for accessibility--because screen readers can not control pop-ups. Therefore it seems logical to me to keep it in the same window--even if it is an external site, etc. What does everyone think? Matthew -- Matthew Ohlman www.ohlman.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] To target or not
personally i say keep it in the same window if your interested I wrote an article about it recently after reading a few other articles about things similar http://germworks.net/blog/2007/07/02/usability-and-accessibility-the-foreign-legion-of-web-design/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] 13/07/2007 10:21:29 am Hello List, I was curious what others opinions were on this issue... Since W3C doesn't allow the target attribute in XHTML Strict, which do you think is better? Having the window opening up with JavaScript or just keeping the page in the same window like W3C wants. I assume the reason for not allowing the target attribute is for accessibility--because screen readers can not control pop-ups. Therefore it seems logical to me to keep it in the same window--even if it is an external site, etc. What does everyone think? Matthew -- Matthew Ohlman www.ohlman.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ** The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security requirements for inbound transmission. ** The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for outbound transmission. This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential and privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email (facsimile) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email (facsimile) in error please contact the Insurance Commission. Web: www.icwa.wa.gov.au Phone: +61 08 9264 * *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] To target or not
Hi Matthew, Being the tech writer for a software dev division, when calling context-sensitive help from a web form is needed I use unobtrusive DOM/Javascript to either let a user open a popup within the app window (traditional method) or call the help from within (embedded) each form field. I have a new Fast Track tutorial in final draft demonstrating how to accomplish both methods titled Calling Context-Sensitive Help with Unobtrusive DOM/JavaScript. These methods are not limited to web forms and can be applied in other ways if needed. If it would help you, please contact me off-list and I can email you (or anyone else interested) a small zipped package of the tutorial project folder containing the markup, content, .css, images and DOM/JavaScript. Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+ Senior Technical Communicator Web Standards Accessibility Designer website: http://frank.helpware.net email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Member: Society for Technical Communications (S.T.C.) Guild of Accessible Web Designers (G.A.W.D.S.) Web Standards Group (W.S.G.) Supergroup Trading Ltd. Sandhurst, Gauteng, South Africa website: http://www.supergroup.co.za Work: +27 011 523 4931 Home: +27 011 455 5287 Fax: +27 011 455 3112 Mobile: +27 074 109 1908 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthew Ohlman Sent: Friday, 13 July, 2007 4:21 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] To target or not Hello List, I was curious what others opinions were on this issue... Since W3C doesn't allow the target attribute in XHTML Strict, which do you think is better? Having the window opening up with JavaScript or just keeping the page in the same window like W3C wants. I assume the reason for not allowing the target attribute is for accessibility--because screen readers can not control pop-ups. Therefore it seems logical to me to keep it in the same window--even if it is an external site, etc. What does everyone think? Matthew -- Matthew Ohlman www.ohlman.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Javascript image rotator
For my last project I used this: http://www.electricprism.com/aeron/slideshow/ You can simplify it down to fading transitions with random image display. It will display a placeholder image of your choosing if JS is not available. I have yet to find an equivalent JS slideshow. Uses mootools. I am not the biggest fan of the mootools documentation and/or forum support, but it is pretty lieghtweight js framework. The Slideshow itself is pretty good from a JS perspective... I mean, I do think it could be a little more decoupled from the CSS/HTML, but overall I think it is well written. Good luck! Cheers, Micky -- Wishlists: http://snipurl.com/1gqpj Switch: http://browsehappy.com/ BCC?: http://snipurl.com/w6f8 My: http://del.icio.us/mhulse *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Javascript image rotator
Oops, seems I sent the msg too soon, and someone already recommended the same site. Another thought, instead of searching image rotator, have you searched for slideshows? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Collins Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 7:45 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Javascript image rotator Hi all, I thought this would be an easy one to Google, but yet I find myself here again asking your professional opinions :) Trying to find a script for random image rotation on a website. Meaning the images would rotate every 5 seconds or so automatically, without the need for a refresh. The only requirements would be: - A fade effect between the rotating images. - A fall back so users without javascript will still get a single image. Any links would be greatly appreciated. Cheers Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Javascript image rotator
On this jQuery examples page is a something similar to what you want, using the jQuery library and unordered list with links. I guess if you enclose the script within a condition like if javascript=true that would take care of folks that disable javascript. I'm not a javascript programmer, however, but you might be able to figure something out. http://medienfreunde.com/lab/innerfade/ ByteDreams -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Collins Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 7:45 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Javascript image rotator Hi all, I thought this would be an easy one to Google, but yet I find myself here again asking your professional opinions :) Trying to find a script for random image rotation on a website. Meaning the images would rotate every 5 seconds or so automatically, without the need for a refresh. The only requirements would be: - A fade effect between the rotating images. - A fall back so users without javascript will still get a single image. Any links would be greatly appreciated. Cheers Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***