Re: [WSG] will Eric Meyer�s C SS SCULPTOR put me out of job?

2007-08-28 Thread James Jeffery
Dont worry about it.

I doubt web companies are going to lose ANY work from clients because of
any of this.

On 8/28/07, Chris Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 That's the same short sighted question asked when WYSIWYG editors were
 introduced. If something like this is making you fear for your career, you
 really need to reevaluate if you are even in the right feild let alone
 career.

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Re: [WSG] will Eric Meyer's CSS SCULPTOR put me out o f job?

2007-08-28 Thread Tee G. Peng



On Aug 27, 2007, at 8:41 PM, Al Sparber wrote:




Both products produce standards-based CSS layouts that work in  
modern browsers (ours also addresses IE5.0x, too). I can only speak  
for our product (CSS Layout Magic). It is a rapid deployment (one  
click) tool that produces a minimally styled, structurally sound  
layout set up with easy-to-edit faux column images. The idea is  
that you get a rock-solid structure on which to build and enhance.  
While Jakob Neilsen might consider it a finished design, we  
don't :-). You have to have a basic understanding of CSS and markup  
to use these tools to their full potential, other wise the pages  
you produce will always look like a rental house with white walls  
(in this case, a lot of yellow). The faux images approach allows  
quick customization to easily turn this:
http://www.projectseven.com/products/templates/pagepacks/cssmagic/ 
cssmagic08.htm


Thanks all for your feedback. I guess I asked the question  
incorrectly and the subject line was to draw eyeballs I am afraid.


Al, I am not afraid you CSS Layout Magic will put me out of job  
because I saw some of your customers managed to mess up your layout  
and I actually helped a few to clean up their messes :) Not saying  
your extension is not good or not as good as  the CSS Sculptor,  
besides, I am in no position to compare because I never use either of  
them. What prompted me to ask this question is because, I guess, the  
impression  I got is the way it's being advertised- The ultimate Web  
standards compliant CSS layout


I see so many web designers using CSS without a bit of understanding  
of semantical and structural markup, and the way I see it, the way  
they do with the div classes is nothing different than the table  
layout, so I always thought extension like yours provides a good  
ground however, exactly like you're saying You have to have a basic  
understanding of CSS and markup to use these tools to their full  
potential.


Guess it probably just a marketing gimmick to market an extension  as  
The ultimate Web standards compliant CSS layout, but I respect Eric  
Meyer so much (no he doesn't know my existence) that I want to  
believe The ultimate Web standards compliant CSS layout is exactly  
as it advertised, that it really can help many web designers to use  
the CSS and markup correctly, semantically and structurally. If so, I  
may even consider to purchase it myself to help enchance my  
production :)


tee



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Re: [WSG] will Eric Meyer's CSS SCULPTOR put me out o f job?

2007-08-28 Thread Al Sparber

From: Tee G. Peng [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Al, I am not afraid you CSS Layout Magic will put me out of job  because I 
saw some of your customers managed to mess up your layout  and I actually 
helped a few to clean up their messes :)


Why didn't you just say what you meant, then :-)

Not saying  your extension is not good or not as good as  the CSS 
Sculptor,  besides, I am in no position to compare because I never use 
either of  them.


What prompted me to ask this question is because, I guess, the  impression 
I got is the way it's being advertised- The ultimate Web  standards 
compliant CSS layout


I own both and prefer mine. I believe they prefer theirs. We try not to use 
words like best and certainly never use ultimate, though definitive is 
cool so long as someone else is describing your work as such.



I see so many web designers using CSS without a bit of understanding  of 
semantical and structural markup, and the way I see it, the way  they do 
with the div classes is nothing different than the table  layout, so I 
always thought extension like yours provides a good  ground however, 
exactly like you're saying You have to have a basic  understanding of CSS 
and markup to use these tools to their full  potential.


Yeah. Whether you get that info from our free support channels, or from 
lists like this one, or from people like you, it's the same thing. We make 
our living selling tools for Dreamweaver users and sometimes we get hammered 
for it in subtle and not-so-subtle ways... but we are no different from any 
good web developer, even the ones who assert that everything should be open 
source and free except for the bills they send their clients.



Guess it probably just a marketing gimmick to market an extension  as 
The ultimate Web standards compliant CSS layout, but I respect Eric 
Meyer so much (no he doesn't know my existence) that I want to  believe 
The ultimate Web standards compliant CSS layout is exactly  as it 
advertised, that it really can help many web designers to use  the CSS and 
markup correctly, semantically and structurally. If so, I  may even 
consider to purchase it myself to help enchance my  production :)


It is a gimmick, and I do respect Eric too, but sometimes when talent meets 
marketing hyperbole reigns. I'm old enough to remember when one of my 
favorite acronyms was still fresh:


K.I.S.S.

Keep it simple, stupid.

Web developers can sometimes over-code and web tool developers sometimes 
over-program.


--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
Extending Dreamweaver - Nav Systems | Galleries | Widgets
Authors: 42nd Street: Mastering the Art of CSS Design




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Re: [WSG] W3C CSS Validation Service

2007-08-28 Thread Devi Web Development
The online validators are all still kept separate, although work on unicorn
( http://www.w3.org/QA/Tools/Unicorn/ ) is moving, if slowly. However, the
LogValidator is a server tool which includes html, xhtml, and css
validators. It can be found at http://www.w3.org/QA/Tools/LogValidator/


--
Daniel Brumbaugh Keeney
Devi Web Development
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

On 8/25/07, Joyce Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  I used to validate my XHTML at one W3C URL, and then there was another
 URL where I validated my CSS style sheet(s).  It seems this has been
 combined so that I can now validate both my CSS style sheet and my XHTML
 markup at this URL:  http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/.  I'd like to
 verify that this is a correct observation on my part.



 Also, I used to think I had to validate every single page of a website I
 developed (they've all been small websites).  Today, I typed in only the URL
 for the website I wanted to validate, and I received the message that no
 error was found.  I'd like to verify this as well – that I only need to type
 in the website's URL and not each individual page.



 Thank you for responding to what are probably elementary questions.



 Joyce


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[WSG] Understanding Apache Logs

2007-08-28 Thread Pierre-Henri Lavigne

Good day all,

Do you know an online resource please where i can get informations to 
understand in a better way apache logs ?

I've just read this odd stuff for example : 
80.118.33.228 - - [28/Aug/2007:10:37:25 +0200] GET /img/bg_body.gif HTTP/1.1 
404 14360 - Mozilla/4.5 [fr]C-CCK-MCD   (WinNT; I)
80.118.33.228 - - [28/Aug/2007:10:37:26 +0200] GET /img/bg_containerOuter.gif 
HTTP/1.1 404 14360 - Mozilla/4.5 [fr]C-CCK-MCD   (WinNT; I)

In the css :
body { background:#fff url(../img/bg_body.gif) repeat-x top left; 
font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size:71%; color:#66; }
#containerOuter { background:url(../img/bg_containerOuter.gif) no-repeat top 
center; min-height:684px; height:auto !important; height:684px; }

I suppose it's an error with browsers that misunderstood the base href= 
/ added by Typo3 ?
Solution is using as usual absolute url in css file I suppose.

About my previous post with select in IE 6, no solutions, and my try with 
line-height doesn't change anything.

Regards,

Pierre-Henri



 





  Faites des appels de PC à PC dans le monde entier ! Essayez le nouveau 
Yahoo! Québec Messenger avec Voix. 
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Re: [WSG] Understanding Apache Logs

2007-08-28 Thread Matthew Cruickshank

Pierre-Henri Lavigne wrote:

I suppose it's an error with browsers that misunderstood the base href= 
/ added by Typo3 ?
  


Paths in CSS are resolved relative to the CSS, not to the HTML, so I'd 
think that base wouldn't have any effect.


(by the way... is four dots even valid? Presumably it should be ../.. ?)



.Matthew Cruickshank
http://docvert.org/


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Re: [WSG] will Eric Meyer?s CSS SCULPTOR put me out of job?

2007-08-28 Thread Terrence Wood


Tee G. Peng:
what you do guys think of [CSS Sculptor]... PVll CSS layout Magic,  
and the Google Blueprint?


Using pencil and paper to write won't make you a great novelist.  
Using better tools, like a computer, to write still won't make you a  
great novelist.


Same deal with ready made libraries - they won't replace great  
craftmanship, and in most circumstances you need to understand the  
craft to make the most of them anyway.


Personally, I have used code snippets (from single lines, to complete  
generic layouts) for as long as I can remember - it just makes sense.


For the record blueprint is not a google product, it's just hosted   
at google code.


kind regards,
Terrence Wood.





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Re: [WSG] Understanding Apache Logs

2007-08-28 Thread Marghanita da Cruz

Pierre-Henri Lavigne wrote:

Good day all,

Do you know an online resource please where i can get informations to 
understand in a better way apache logs ?



You could check out AWSTATS and Webalizer - which provide statistical analysis 
of Apache Logs.


I've just read this odd stuff for example : 
80.118.33.228 - - [28/Aug/2007:10:37:25 +0200] GET /img/bg_body.gif HTTP/1.1 404 14360 - Mozilla/4.5 [fr]C-CCK-MCD   (WinNT; I)

80.118.33.228 - - [28/Aug/2007:10:37:26 +0200] GET /img/bg_containerOuter.gif HTTP/1.1 404 
14360 - Mozilla/4.5 [fr]C-CCK-MCD   (WinNT; I)

In the css :
body { background:#fff url(../img/bg_body.gif) repeat-x top left; 
font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size:71%; color:#66; }
#containerOuter { background:url(../img/bg_containerOuter.gif) no-repeat top 
center; min-height:684px; height:auto !important; height:684px; }

I suppose it's an error with browsers that misunderstood the base href= 
/ added by Typo3 ?
Solution is using as usual absolute url in css file I suppose.

About my previous post with select in IE 6, no solutions, and my try with 
line-height doesn't change anything.

Regards,

Pierre-Henri



 






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http://cf.messenger.yahoo.com/



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--
Marghanita da Cruz
http://www.ramin.com.au
Phone: (+61)0414 869202


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[WSG] Firefox bug on CSS white-space property

2007-08-28 Thread Julián Landerreche
Hi all.
First: sorry, I'm double posting this on two lists so anyone can confirm
this (before reporting to Mozilla).

The issue is simple (you will see it better by just creating a testing
html with the snippet below):

- there is a white-space:nowrap property (in the stylesheet) applied to
the a element .
- then, that rule is override with some inline styling applied
(white-space:normal) on two elements: one that wraps the a elements and
one that is wrapped by the a element (that also contains the text).
- the text  inside the a elements is a very very very long link.
- and the link is inside a table with a fixed with.
- every tested browser (but FF) honors both the width of the table and the
white-space:normal applied to both the parent and children of the a
elements.
- but Firefox just expands the table width and doesn't break the link in
multiple lines as expected.

The snippet:

!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN 
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd;
html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml; xml:lang=es lang=es
head
meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=utf-8 /
titleTest/title
style type=text/css
   table {background-color: #efefef;}
   a {white-space:nowrap;}
/style
/head
body id=default
table width=175
tr
td
strong style=white-space:normal;
a href=#span
style=white-space:normal;color:green;Very very very very very very very
very very very very very very very long link/span/a
/strong
/td
/tr
/table
/body
/html

I have tested this in:
- Firefox 2.0.0.6 (both Win and Linux)
- IE6
- IE7
- Opera 9.22/Win
- Safari 3 beta.

The only one that isn't working as expected is Mozilla Firefox.

Please, if someone can confirm this issue as a bug and tell me exactly how
to report it to Mozilla (or even better, if someone has some experience
reporting bugs to Mozilla)...

Thanks and sorry for my english.
Julián


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Re: [WSG] Firefox bug on CSS white-space property

2007-08-28 Thread Nick Gleitzman

Julián Landerreche wrote:


I have tested this in:
 - Firefox 2.0.0.6 (both Win and Linux)


Hmm. Not convinced that it's a bug; your line-wrapped link appears as 
you want in FF2.0.0.6/Mac OSX - ?


To look at the issue laterally, if your fixed-width table requires that 
long links wrap, why invoke the no-wrap rule at all? Obviously this 
snippet gives no clue as to the broader context, but what if you leave 
white-space at its default setting of normal - by omitting it?


N
___
omnivision. websight.
http://www.omnivision.com.au/



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RE: [WSG] Firefox bug on CSS white-space property

2007-08-28 Thread Kepler Gelotte
Hi, 

I don’t think it is a bug. First of all you are not overriding the
white-space property buy assigning it to child elements or parent elements.
You just create a conflict. Then precedence takes affect. According to the
CSS2 spec:

'white-space' 
Value:  normal | pre | nowrap | inherit 
Initial:  normal 
Applies to:  block-level elements 
Inherited: yes 
Percentages:  N/A 
Media: visual

Since you applied the “white-space: normal” to a span element which is not
a block-level element it is ignored. By changing the span to a div *or*
adding “display:block” to the span’s style, you will get the effect you were
expecting.

Regards,
Kepler



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Julián Landerreche
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 9:10 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Firefox bug on CSS white-space property

Hi all.
First: sorry, I'm double posting this on two lists so anyone can confirm
this (before reporting to Mozilla).

The issue is simple (you will see it better by just creating a testing
html with the snippet below): 

- there is a white-space:nowrap property (in the stylesheet) applied to
the a element .
- then, that rule is override with some inline styling applied
(white-space:normal) on two elements: one that wraps the a elements and
one that is wrapped by the a element (that also contains the text). 
- the text  inside the a elements is a very very very long link.
- and the link is inside a table with a fixed with.
- every tested browser (but FF) honors both the width of the table and the
white-space:normal applied to both the parent and children of the a
elements. 
- but Firefox just expands the table width and doesn't break the link in
multiple lines as expected.
 



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Re: [WSG] Firefox bug on CSS white-space property

2007-08-28 Thread Philippe Wittenbergh


On Aug 29, 2007, at 10:47 AM, Kepler Gelotte wrote:


I don’t think it is a bug. First of all you are not overriding the
white-space property buy assigning it to child elements or parent  
elements.
You just create a conflict. Then precedence takes affect. According  
to the

CSS2 spec:

'white-space'
Value:  normal | pre | nowrap | inherit
Initial:  normal
Applies to:  block-level elements
Inherited: yes
Percentages:  N/A
Media: visual

Since you applied the “white-space: normal” to a span element  
which is not
a block-level element it is ignored. By changing the span to a  
div *or*
adding “display:block” to the span’s style, you will get the effect  
you were

expecting.


But in the testcase, the white-space property is applied to the a  
(in the head: a {white-pace:nowrap})

Firefox 2.0.0.x should _ignore_ that as well.

Anyway, my Gecko trunk builds (Minefield 20070828 and Camino trunk  
build) correctly wrap the text the same way Safari and WebKit wrap  
the text (ignore the white-pace:nowrap).

So Firefox 3.0 will display correctly.

And if the link text were to long for the space allowed by the table  
(e.g. a very very long word), the table should expand, unless the  
table has 'table-layout: fixed' specified.


Philippe
---
Philippe Wittenbergh
http://emps.l-c-n.com





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RE: [WSG] Firefox bug on CSS white-space property

2007-08-28 Thread Kepler Gelotte

 And if the link text were to long for the space allowed by the table  
 (e.g. a very very long word), the table should expand, unless the  
 table has 'table-layout: fixed' specified.

The table should expand even though he specified width=175? I learn
something new every day.

Regards,
Kepler



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Re: [WSG] Firefox bug on CSS white-space property

2007-08-28 Thread Philippe Wittenbergh


On Aug 29, 2007, at 12:43 PM, Kepler Gelotte wrote:


And if the link text were to long for the space allowed by the table
(e.g. a very very long word), the table should expand, unless the
table has 'table-layout: fixed' specified.


The table should expand even though he specified width=175? I learn
something new every day.

Try this:
http://dev.l-c-n.com/_temp/wp.html

And yes that is the expected behaviour. 'Width' on table and td/th is  
more like 'min-width' (idem dito for 'height').


Philippe
---
Philippe Wittenbergh
http://emps.l-c-n.com





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