Re: [WSG] Web Standards In Colleges and Universities

2007-10-22 Thread Steve Olive
On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 07:18:32 pm James Jeffery wrote:
 Good Morning!

 Here is my problem. Im at college this year, preparing for University
 (Hopefully Birmingham) to
 study Software Engineering. At college we have a class on a Thursday called
 Web Development
 and the guy thats teaching the class in an absolute joke, no seriously, he
 is.

 He is teaching students how to create web pages using Dreamweaver in
 Design view, and then
 telling students if they can do this, they are Web Designers.

 I was angry, i instantly replied and questioned his knowledge on HTML and
 asked the age old question:
 What are tables in HTML used for?, he replied To lay out web pages and
 for tabled data, i replied with
 wrong, he laughed and told me he knows what he is talking about.

 I seriously want to raise a huge issue at the college, but im not sure how
 to do it. This guy is on 22k+
 a year, and cannot even teach people correctly, he may have been a pro back
 in the days when tables
 were acceptable to lay out web pages, but  in todays world he is a fool.

 Its half term now, we have an assignment to complete using Dreamweaver, and
 he said i have to use
 tables, its not a problem, i will do as the assignment requests. I will
 walk the extra mile and create the
 same page without tables, with semantics, with accessibility in mind and
 without the bloated mark-up,
 and then write a essay comparing the both.

 What power do i have (if any) to try and get the college to understand they
 cannot use a cowboy to
 teach tomorrows computer experts. Should i use my essay and examples and
 take it to the head of
 the college? I really don't know how to go about this, but its definatly a
 problem.

 I really am angry and annoyed, you pay money to be taught the correct
 methods. People who don't
 understand are fine, they will believe him, and thats the shocking part
 about it all.

 I await some advice.

Hi,

It may not be the tutor's or colege's fault. Curriculum is written at a 
higher level and then pushed down to educators. This process 
involves industry experts and takes a number of years. Often this 
curriculum is tied to government funding and as such can't be changed. The 
subject may actually be design a web site using industry standard web design 
software which currently the industry standard is Dreamweaver.

However, some educators take the easy way out and only teach what they know. 
The subject could simply be create a web site and they only know 
Dreamweaver based templates or starter pages. They haven't been taught any 
other way.

I have seen this first hand, I have taught web design and other IT courses for 
eight years, always meeting learning outcomes, and often pointing out 
that industry attitudes have changed. Creating sites the old way and 
the new way is useful for students who may have to manage old sites that 
can't be upgraded overnight for many reasons. Recognising the weaknesses 
and strengths with CSS layout and tabular layout makes students better 
designers, and hopefully a better Internet for all.

Telling a teacher they are wrong in front of many students often offends 
them, especially when they don't keep up to date with current trends. 
However, most teachers who adapt and learn the new technologies do so in 
their own time, unpaid and often unrecognised.

Do your site both ways and demonstrate the advantages of CSS layout using 
accessibility tools and ratings. And just think how far in front of the other 
students when applying for jobs saying that you can support old and new 
sites.


-- 
Regards,

Steve
Bathurst Computer Solutions
URL: www.bathurstcomputers.com.au
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mobile: 0407 224 251
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Re: [WSG] Web Standards In Colleges and Universities

2007-10-22 Thread Stuart Foulstone
Hi,

If you HAVE to use tables you can still go some way in meeting
accessibility standards by compliance with guidelines:

5.3 Do not use tables for layout unless the table makes sense when
linearized.  [Priority 2]

5.4 If a table is used for layout, do not use any structural markup for
the purpose of visual formatting. [Priority 2]

(summarised from http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/#gl-table-markup )

-- 
Stuart Foulstone.
http://www.bigeasyweb.co.uk
BigEasy Web Design
69 Flockton Court
Rockingham Street
Sheffield
S1 4EB

Tel. 07751 413451

On Sun, October 21, 2007 11:42 am, James Jeffery wrote:
 It does: http://www.matthew-boulton.ac.uk/

 The site looks o.k, but as you can see the methods are wrong.

 On 10/21/07, Stuart Foulstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hi,

 You could possibly use how your college's own Website is coded to
 support
 your case.

 I don't know which college you're at, but look at how their Website is
 coded  - I would be surprised if their still using the methods your
 tutor
 is teaching.


 --
 Stuart Foulstone.
 http://www.bigeasyweb.co.uk
 BigEasy Web Design
 69 Flockton Court
 Rockingham Street
 Sheffield
 S1 4EB

 Tel. 07751 413451

 On Sat, October 20, 2007 10:18 am, James Jeffery wrote:
  Good Morning!
 
  Here is my problem. Im at college this year, preparing for University
  (Hopefully Birmingham) to
  study Software Engineering. At college we have a class on a Thursday
  called
  Web Development
  and the guy thats teaching the class in an absolute joke, no
 seriously,
 he
  is.
 
  He is teaching students how to create web pages using Dreamweaver in
  Design view, and then
  telling students if they can do this, they are Web Designers.
 
  I was angry, i instantly replied and questioned his knowledge on HTML
 and
  asked the age old question:
  What are tables in HTML used for?, he replied To lay out web pages
 and
  for tabled data, i replied with
  wrong, he laughed and told me he knows what he is talking about.
 
  I seriously want to raise a huge issue at the college, but im not sure
 how
  to do it. This guy is on 22k+
  a year, and cannot even teach people correctly, he may have been a pro
  back
  in the days when tables
  were acceptable to lay out web pages, but  in todays world he is a
 fool.
 
  Its half term now, we have an assignment to complete using
 Dreamweaver,
  and
  he said i have to use
  tables, its not a problem, i will do as the assignment requests. I
 will
  walk
  the extra mile and create the
  same page without tables, with semantics, with accessibility in mind
 and
  without the bloated mark-up,
  and then write a essay comparing the both.
 
  What power do i have (if any) to try and get the college to understand
  they
  cannot use a cowboy to
  teach tomorrows computer experts. Should i use my essay and examples
 and
  take it to the head of
  the college? I really don't know how to go about this, but its
 definatly
 a
  problem.
 
  I really am angry and annoyed, you pay money to be taught the correct
  methods. People who don't
  understand are fine, they will believe him, and thats the shocking
 part
  about it all.
 
  I await some advice.
 
 
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[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest

2007-10-22 Thread Whatman, Warrick
I am currently out of the office.

Please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] or phone 02 6271 5775 for website updates and 
enquiries.

--
Warrick Whatman
Web Services
Dept of the Prime Minister and Cabinet





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Re: [WSG] References for best web video practices

2007-10-22 Thread Alastair Campbell
On 10/17/07, Roberto Gorjão [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Could you point me to some of your bookmarks or other
 resources about it?

http://www.d.umn.edu/itss/support/Training/Online/webdesign/accessibility.html#multimedia

and

http://www.skillsforaccess.org.uk/

-Alastair


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[WSG] Leopard mail and standards

2007-10-22 Thread Keryx Web
When Outlook 2007 came out it incurred upon itself the righteous wrath 
of all standardistas thanks to the stupid decision to use Word as its 
HTML/CSS rendering engine.


In a few days Mac OS X Leopard will be out with much touted templates 
for the mail app. Here is my question: Are these made with standards, 
accessibility and separation of concerns in mind?



Lars Gunther


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RE: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards

2007-10-22 Thread Mohamed Jama
Although it's quite annoying but it does make some sense at some weird
level, having IE as their rendering engine with its shambled security it
was easy for a lot of spammers and hackers to inflect a lot of damage on
less experienced web users.

I actually think it was quite a good idea although its near impossible
nowadays to make it cross browsers decent newsletter and forget about
background images.

M. Jama

big:interactive
91 Princedale Road
Holland Park
London W11 4NS
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Direct: +44 (0)20 7313 2262
www.biggroup.co.uk

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Keryx Web
Sent: 22 October 2007 15:27
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards

When Outlook 2007 came out it incurred upon itself the righteous wrath 
of all standardistas thanks to the stupid decision to use Word as its 
HTML/CSS rendering engine.

In a few days Mac OS X Leopard will be out with much touted templates 
for the mail app. Here is my question: Are these made with standards, 
accessibility and separation of concerns in mind?


Lars Gunther


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Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards

2007-10-22 Thread Jason Pruim


On Oct 22, 2007, at 10:27 AM, Keryx Web wrote:

When Outlook 2007 came out it incurred upon itself the righteous  
wrath of all standardistas thanks to the stupid decision to use  
Word as its HTML/CSS rendering engine.


In a few days Mac OS X Leopard will be out with much touted  
templates for the mail app. Here is my question: Are these made  
with standards, accessibility and separation of concerns in mind?



Lars Gunther


Hi Lars,

Quoted from: HTTP://www.apple.com/macosx/features/mail.html:

Sincerely yours.
Mail for Leopard features more than 30 professionally designed  
stationery templates that make a virtual keepsake out of every email  
you send.


From invitations to birthday greetings, stationery templates feature  
coordinated layouts, fonts, colors, and drag-and-drop photo placement  
from your iPhoto library — everything to help you get your point  
across. You can even create personalized templates. Messages created  
with stationery in Mail use standard HTML that can be read by popular  
webmail services and email programs on both Mac computers and PCs.




Until it's actually released I'm not sure that anyone will be willing  
to say anything more then that since the people who know are under  
NDA's...




But it's only 4 days and 7 hours until the release :)






--

Jason Pruim
Raoset Inc.
Technology Manager
MQC Specialist
3251 132nd ave
Holland, MI, 49424
www.raoset.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




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Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards

2007-10-22 Thread 8bits Media
It would seem odd if Apple went down the same path as Microsoft,  
especially since using Word to render HTML/CSS in Outlook 2007 was so  
well received by the web development community! I'm sure they won't  
want to be accused of following Microsoft.


Also, I have a feeling they wouldn't have bothered negotiating with  
Microsoft for the use of Word as their new rendering engine...


nick lazar
8bits Media
http://8bits.com.au



On 22 Oct 2007, at 15:59, Jason Pruim wrote:


On Oct 22, 2007, at 10:27 AM, Keryx Web wrote:

When Outlook 2007 came out it incurred upon itself the righteous  
wrath of all standardistas thanks to the stupid decision to use  
Word as its HTML/CSS rendering engine.


In a few days Mac OS X Leopard will be out with much touted  
templates for the mail app. Here is my question: Are these made  
with standards, accessibility and separation of concerns in mind?



Lars Gunther






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Re: [WSG] Web Standards In Colleges and Universities

2007-10-22 Thread Christian Snodgrass
I am actually having a similar problem. I was able to skip the Web 
Development class, so I didn't have to sit through it, but I am sure it 
is similar to how yours is. We have a Javascript class and the HTML that 
is taught in there is hideous. Also, my teacher in my Multimedia class 
is wanting us to create a Flash-only website, which I've told him is not 
right.


I'm actually planning on talking to them one-on-one to help them get up 
to today's standards. Also, I work for a group who's primary duty is to 
maintain the residential network, but also does things such as 
computer-related websites. I'm planning on putting together one for 
today's website standards as well as for accessibility and invite pretty 
much every computer and technology related teacher to it so I can help 
try and open some eyes.


I think it is such a shame when the schools turn out sub-par web 
developers, who later become more roadblocks to acceptable standards usage.


But, like others have already said, don't be confrontational, be 
informative. I am in my 5th semester so I know many of the teachers in 
quite well already, so I can talk to them without them getting 
defensive. You have to be helpful or else they'll just plug their ears 
and refuse to listen.


Good luck with your school,
Christian Snodgrass

James Jeffery wrote:

Good Morning!

Here is my problem. Im at college this year, preparing for University 
(Hopefully Birmingham) to
study Software Engineering. At college we have a class on a Thursday 
called Web Development
and the guy thats teaching the class in an absolute joke, no 
seriously, he is.


He is teaching students how to create web pages using Dreamweaver in 
Design view, and then

telling students if they can do this, they are Web Designers.

I was angry, i instantly replied and questioned his knowledge on HTML 
and asked the age old question:
What are tables in HTML used for?, he replied To lay out web pages 
and for tabled data, i replied with

wrong, he laughed and told me he knows what he is talking about.

I seriously want to raise a huge issue at the college, but im not sure 
how to do it. This guy is on 22k+
a year, and cannot even teach people correctly, he may have been a pro 
back in the days when tables

were acceptable to lay out web pages, but  in todays world he is a fool.

Its half term now, we have an assignment to complete using 
Dreamweaver, and he said i have to use
tables, its not a problem, i will do as the assignment requests. I 
will walk the extra mile and create the
same page without tables, with semantics, with accessibility in mind 
and without the bloated mark-up,

and then write a essay comparing the both.

What power do i have (if any) to try and get the college to understand 
they cannot use a cowboy to
teach tomorrows computer experts. Should i use my essay and examples 
and take it to the head of
the college? I really don't know how to go about this, but its 
definatly a problem.


I really am angry and annoyed, you pay money to be taught the correct 
methods. People who don't
understand are fine, they will believe him, and thats the shocking 
part about it all.


I await some advice.

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Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards

2007-10-22 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Keryx Web wrote:
When Outlook 2007 came out it incurred upon itself the righteous wrath 
of all standardistas thanks to the stupid decision to use Word as its 
HTML/CSS rendering engine.


In a few days Mac OS X Leopard will be out with much touted templates 
for the mail app. Here is my question: Are these made with standards, 
accessibility and separation of concerns in mind?


I think it's fair to assume that it'll use Webkit as its rendering 
engine http://developer.apple.com/opensource/internet/webkit.html


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team
http://streetteam.webstandards.org/
__


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Re: [WSG] Web Standards In Colleges and Universities

2007-10-22 Thread dstorey
At least in Universities (colleges - as in the English colleges, not the
American term, may be different) my experience is that lecturers have a
research area, which is why they are still in academia.  Teaching is just a
necessary evil they have to go through, especially if it is not related to
their research interest.  Then when it comes to web technologies, they are
often further removed from even the subject of the lecture and relegated to
html is easy, go teach yourself or it is just the technology to print out the
stuff that your server side code (that is the important part you get marked on)
generates.  At least that is my experience wen doing a computer science degree,
and masters, when we were doing anything that required displaying the data in a
web browser instead of in a desktop application.  Things like Swing in Java
would get taught properly as it is fairly complex.  HTML wouldn't as it is
perceived to be easy stuff that even designers can do. Of course as we all
know, a little knowledge can do a lot of harm.  I don't have experience from
courses that actually suppose to teach from a web design client point of view,
instead of the server side.

Now, in some ways it is hard to blame lecturers for not knowing and keeping up
to date on everything, and they often do have to teach a wide amount of topics.
 The client side world alone has a huge amount of technologies.  I think we as
big(ish) companies in the field (I'm talking about Opera here, and companies
like Yahoo!, Google et al) could do more to reach out to universities, colleges
and schools to say that we are big employers in the industry and we require a
certain level in x topics for your students to be employable, without a lot of
extra training on our part.  It would probably be a big plus for them to be
producing students employable by desirable companies.  The problem is that
there are far too many universities (never mind colleges and schools) to reach
out to and go do a presentation to the students on campus.  I wouldn't want to
do the elitist thing and only go to the best schools either.  

I've always thought of doing something like a web standards curriculum pack,
either in printed or online form, that we put together as a suggested
curriculum  for universities to give to students to either work from if their
course is web design, or as a reference point if they are doing server side
stuff and they are told to go away and learn themselves.  t will be much easier
for students as they will have all the information in one place and wont be
swayed by bad quality articles online, and will be good for lecturers as it
takes the leg work out of staying up to date.  Opera has its new dev.opera.com
site, where we are adding content, but don't have much that is suitable for
that yet.  If it is an idea that is of interest we could go away and compile
the seminal articles on the web that designers should read, and get permission
from the authors to distribute it, and update them if needed.  It'll be a lot
of work, but it will probably be worth it if universities are interested.

David


Quoting Christian Snodgrass [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 I am actually having a similar problem. I was able to skip the Web 
 Development class, so I didn't have to sit through it, but I am sure it 
 is similar to how yours is. We have a Javascript class and the HTML that 
 is taught in there is hideous. Also, my teacher in my Multimedia class 
 is wanting us to create a Flash-only website, which I've told him is not 
 right.
 
 I'm actually planning on talking to them one-on-one to help them get up 
 to today's standards. Also, I work for a group who's primary duty is to 
 maintain the residential network, but also does things such as 
 computer-related websites. I'm planning on putting together one for 
 today's website standards as well as for accessibility and invite pretty 
 much every computer and technology related teacher to it so I can help 
 try and open some eyes.
 
 I think it is such a shame when the schools turn out sub-par web 
 developers, who later become more roadblocks to acceptable standards usage.
 
 But, like others have already said, don't be confrontational, be 
 informative. I am in my 5th semester so I know many of the teachers in 
 quite well already, so I can talk to them without them getting 
 defensive. You have to be helpful or else they'll just plug their ears 
 and refuse to listen.
 
 Good luck with your school,
 Christian Snodgrass
 
 James Jeffery wrote:
  Good Morning!
 
  Here is my problem. Im at college this year, preparing for University 
  (Hopefully Birmingham) to
  study Software Engineering. At college we have a class on a Thursday 
  called Web Development
  and the guy thats teaching the class in an absolute joke, no 
  seriously, he is.
 
  He is teaching students how to create web pages using Dreamweaver in 
  Design view, and then
  telling students if they can do this, they are Web Designers.
 
  I was angry, i 

Re: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash

2007-10-22 Thread Rogier Schoenmaker
Hello,

Just so you know, there's no dropdown shown in Firefox (IceWeasel) for
debian, neither for Epiphany and Konquerer doesn't seem to work with
flash.

Hope it's useful.

Regards,

Rogier Schoenmaker.

On 18/10/2007, nate hanna [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On 10/17/07, Michael Kear [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  The reason for using wmode was to fix the problem that existed before.
 All I wanted was to make sure the dhtml drop down menu came down on top of
 the flash movie not underneath it.

 Is that not the best way ? Mike, unfortunately claiming wmode is the only
 way to get the drop-downs to come over flash; I just wanted you to be aware
 that there are accessibility concerns (see the links in my last post) when
 using wmode.

 Secondly, it's documented that wmode causes performance/compatibility
 issues with flash especially when you claim it to be transparent. Thus,
 unless you need to reveal a background of the table behind flash it is
 recommended that you use wmode='opaque' versus transparent. It'll give you
 the same results and you will suffer from less performance issues and it'll
 work under Linux boxes where as transparent will not (the last time I
 checked).

 - Nate

 P.S. If accessibility is a large concern you may want to pull the flash
 movie out of the general layout and place it into a pop-up window or
 something so you do not have to claim wmode at all.



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Re: [WSG] Web Standards In Colleges and Universities

2007-10-22 Thread Jason Pruim
I'm not a university... Just a poor schmuck trying to stay afloat in  
the world of web design/coding but a website like what you are  
talking about would be very very helpful. I would be willing to help  
in any way I could (Without charge unless you took up too much of my  
family time :))


But otherwise if a website like that launches I would be a frequent  
visitor and telling my friends about it :)


On Oct 22, 2007, at 2:45 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

At least in Universities (colleges - as in the English colleges,  
not the
American term, may be different) my experience is that lecturers  
have a
research area, which is why they are still in academia.  Teaching  
is just a
necessary evil they have to go through, especially if it is not  
related to
their research interest.  Then when it comes to web technologies,  
they are
often further removed from even the subject of the lecture and  
relegated to
html is easy, go teach yourself or it is just the technology to  
print out the
stuff that your server side code (that is the important part you  
get marked on)
generates.  At least that is my experience wen doing a computer  
science degree,
and masters, when we were doing anything that required displaying  
the data in a
web browser instead of in a desktop application.  Things like Swing  
in Java
would get taught properly as it is fairly complex.  HTML wouldn't  
as it is
perceived to be easy stuff that even designers can do. Of course as  
we all
know, a little knowledge can do a lot of harm.  I don't have  
experience from
courses that actually suppose to teach from a web design client  
point of view,

instead of the server side.

Now, in some ways it is hard to blame lecturers for not knowing and  
keeping up
to date on everything, and they often do have to teach a wide  
amount of topics.
 The client side world alone has a huge amount of technologies.  I  
think we as
big(ish) companies in the field (I'm talking about Opera here, and  
companies
like Yahoo!, Google et al) could do more to reach out to  
universities, colleges
and schools to say that we are big employers in the industry and we  
require a
certain level in x topics for your students to be employable,  
without a lot of
extra training on our part.  It would probably be a big plus for  
them to be
producing students employable by desirable companies.  The problem  
is that
there are far too many universities (never mind colleges and  
schools) to reach
out to and go do a presentation to the students on campus.  I  
wouldn't want to

do the elitist thing and only go to the best schools either.

I've always thought of doing something like a web standards  
curriculum pack,

either in printed or online form, that we put together as a suggested
curriculum  for universities to give to students to either work  
from if their
course is web design, or as a reference point if they are doing  
server side
stuff and they are told to go away and learn themselves.  t will be  
much easier
for students as they will have all the information in one place and  
wont be
swayed by bad quality articles online, and will be good for  
lecturers as it
takes the leg work out of staying up to date.  Opera has its new  
dev.opera.com
site, where we are adding content, but don't have much that is  
suitable for
that yet.  If it is an idea that is of interest we could go away  
and compile
the seminal articles on the web that designers should read, and get  
permission
from the authors to distribute it, and update them if needed.   
It'll be a lot
of work, but it will probably be worth it if universities are  
interested.


David




--

Jason Pruim
Raoset Inc.
Technology Manager
MQC Specialist
3251 132nd ave
Holland, MI, 49424
www.raoset.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




--

Jason Pruim
Raoset Inc.
Technology Manager
MQC Specialist
3251 132nd ave
Holland, MI, 49424
www.raoset.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




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Re: [WSG] Web Standards In Colleges and Universities

2007-10-22 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I've always thought of doing something like a web standards curriculum pack,
either in printed or online form, that we put together as a suggested
curriculum  for universities to give to students


David,

I'd suggest getting in touch with somebody from the WaSP EDU task force
http://www.webstandards.org/action/edutf

I know they've started looking at something along those lines, but may 
have come to a bit of a halt in recent months (it seems that all us 
WaSPs have been snowed under with other concerns of late, sadly).


P

--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team
http://streetteam.webstandards.org/
__


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Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards

2007-10-22 Thread Breton Slivka
Would you want the mail templates to use standards and seperation of
concerns? Last time I looked, it was well nigh impossible to get an
email that was standards based AND rendered properly in virtually
*any* email client.  Im sure they could have made the templates
standards based, in which case, the only people who would be able to
see them is other apple mail users. Since they advertise that they use
standard html that renders in any email client I would say that they
are probably a mess of inline css and tables, and possibly divs. Just
remember back to what the output of iWeb was like.

On 10/23/07, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Keryx Web wrote:
  When Outlook 2007 came out it incurred upon itself the righteous wrath
  of all standardistas thanks to the stupid decision to use Word as its
  HTML/CSS rendering engine.
 
  In a few days Mac OS X Leopard will be out with much touted templates
  for the mail app. Here is my question: Are these made with standards,
  accessibility and separation of concerns in mind?

 I think it's fair to assume that it'll use Webkit as its rendering
 engine http://developer.apple.com/opensource/internet/webkit.html

 P
 --
 Patrick H. Lauke
 __
 re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
 [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
 www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
 http://redux.deviantart.com
 __
 Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
 http://webstandards.org/
 __
 Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team
 http://streetteam.webstandards.org/
 __


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Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards

2007-10-22 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Breton Slivka wrote:

Would you want the mail templates to use standards and seperation of
concerns? Last time I looked, it was well nigh impossible to get an
email that was standards based AND rendered properly in virtually
*any* email client.  Im sure they could have made the templates
standards based, in which case, the only people who would be able to
see them is other apple mail users. Since they advertise that they use
standard html that renders in any email client I would say that they
are probably a mess of inline css and tables, and possibly divs. Just
remember back to what the output of iWeb was like.


But my point was: if it does use Webkit (rather than a monstrosity like 
Word's rendering engine), it can understand separation of concerns. 
Whether its factory-shipped templates are clean or not is secondary, in 
my view.


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team
http://streetteam.webstandards.org/
__


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Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards

2007-10-22 Thread Breton Slivka
and my point was: Apple isn't advertising the templates as being only
viewable in Apple mail, it's advertising them as being viewable in
*any* mail client.

This implies that they do not have seperation of concerns, because
there's no standard of support for that.


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Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards

2007-10-22 Thread Breton Slivka
Apologies- I didn't mean my original post as a direct response to
patrick, merely a response to the thread.

On 10/23/07, Breton Slivka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 and my point was: Apple isn't advertising the templates as being only
 viewable in Apple mail, it's advertising them as being viewable in
 *any* mail client.

 This implies that they do not have seperation of concerns, because
 there's no standard of support for that.



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Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards

2007-10-22 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Breton Slivka wrote:

and my point was: Apple isn't advertising the templates as being only
viewable in Apple mail, it's advertising them as being viewable in
*any* mail client.

This implies that they do not have seperation of concerns, because
there's no standard of support for that.


Sorry, had to go back and re-read the thread starter. In rushing through 
my mail, I thought the question was more along the lines of will it 
support our carefully crafted HTML/CSS emails, but I see now that it 
specifically concerned the shipped templates. In which case yes, their 
templates will probably not follow full separation, simply because 
they'll have to actually work with Outlook.


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team
http://streetteam.webstandards.org/
__


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Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards

2007-10-22 Thread Al Sparber

From: Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sorry, had to go back and re-read the thread starter. In rushing through 
my mail, I thought the question was more along the lines of will it 
support our carefully crafted HTML/CSS emails, but I see now that it 
specifically concerned the shipped templates. In which case yes, their 
templates will probably not follow full separation, simply because they'll 
have to actually work with Outlook.


I'm not entirely sure. The HTML/plain text announcements we send out are 
standards-based with one exception - we embed the CSS in the body section. 
These mails display perfectly in Outlook, OE, Windows Mail, Apple Mail, and 
Thunderbird. The problem with Outlook, I believe, is more to do with what it 
generates, rather than what it can read/display.


--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
Extending Dreamweaver - Nav Systems | Galleries | Widgets
Authors: 42nd Street: Mastering the Art of CSS Design




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Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards

2007-10-22 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Al Sparber wrote:
The problem with Outlook, I believe, is 
more to do with what it generates, rather than what it can read/display.


Haven't had a chance to play with the final product, but from what I 
remember it is indeed a fundamental problem with its display capabilities.


From 
http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2007/01/10/microsoft-breaks-html-email-rendering-in-outlook/


* no support for background images (HTML or CSS)
* no support for forms
* no support for Flash, or other plugins
* no support for CSS floats
* no support for replacing bullets with images in unordered lists
* no support for CSS positioning
* no support for animated GIFs

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team
http://streetteam.webstandards.org/
__


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Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards

2007-10-22 Thread Breton Slivka
 I'm not entirely sure. The HTML/plain text announcements we send out are
 standards-based with one exception - we embed the CSS in the body section.
 These mails display perfectly in Outlook, OE, Windows Mail, Apple Mail, and
 Thunderbird. The problem with Outlook, I believe, is more to do with what it
 generates, rather than what it can read/display.

 --
 Al Sparber - PVII
 http://www.projectseven.com
 Extending Dreamweaver - Nav Systems | Galleries | Widgets
 Authors: 42nd Street: Mastering the Art of CSS Design

Have you tried outlook 2007 Lately? the way it reads/displays html has
been THE issue ever since it was released.


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RE: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash

2007-10-22 Thread Michael Kear
Thanks Rogier, I appreciate your help. 

Since we are likely to have perhaps 1 or 2 users only using any of those
browsers, and by far the vast majority of our users are using WindowsXP with
IE6 or IE7 (remember this is not a IT related site  - our customers are
tshirt retailers and advertising agencies) I've decided the cost/benefit of
fixing that isn't worth it. 

The few users inconvenienced by the issue can just use the back button or
click on one of the top menu items and get the drop downs from there.  Sorry
for those people, but them's the breaks.   Sometimes you have problems you
know are there, but just simply aren't high enough in the priorities to get
fixed.

I have several other deadlines with this client to meet, and they're far
more important than this one.

But you're right, Rogier, it ought to be fixed for those users, but it's not
going to be unless I have a slow day sometime.

Cheers
Mike Kear
Windsor, NSW, Australia
0422 985 585
Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer
AFP Webworks Pty Ltd
http://afpwebworks.com
Full Scale ColdFusion hosting from A$15/month



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rogier Schoenmaker
Sent: Tuesday, 23 October 2007 4:55 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash

Hello,

Just so you know, there's no dropdown shown in Firefox (IceWeasel) for
debian, neither for Epiphany and Konquerer doesn't seem to work with
flash.

Hope it's useful.

Regards,

Rogier Schoenmaker.





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Re: [WSG] Web Standards In Colleges and Universities

2007-10-22 Thread WL Wong
Hi James,

In addition to some of the ideas given, what about showing your
lecturer some inspiring examples like CSS Zen Garden, and others?
Hopefully he can also discover designing with css and standards, and
really get into it. I had shown zen garden to a colleague few years
ago - he got hooked and when he started teaching php development, he
was on the web standards game having gained inspiration from css zen
garden.

Sometimes changes cannot happen overnight, and sometimes the message
is not welcome nor heard!

But you can keep trying and chipping away ... and also enjoy the
process without getting too overwhelmed by negativity from the other
side.

Cheers
WL


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Re: [WSG] Leopard mail and standards

2007-10-22 Thread Christian Montoya
On 10/22/07, Al Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 From: Breton Slivka [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Have you tried outlook 2007 Lately? the way it reads/displays html has
  been THE issue ever since it was released.

 No. I'd assumed it displayed the same as OE6 or Windows Mail (Vista).

A.. it doesn't. You should do a test and send us your results.

-- 
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net


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RE: [WSG] Encoded mailto links (and accessibility)

2007-10-22 Thread Moira Clunie
 
On 10/19/07, Michael MD [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 not much good for someone using a device without sound

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Or Golan
 I'm guessing that a person who uses a screen reader has sound on his
device.

Not necessarily - screen reader software can output to synthetic speech
and/or to refreshable braille. Some people use a screen reader with a
refreshable braille display and no sound.


Moira 


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