Re: [WSG] skip to content: care of accessibility causing usability

2007-10-28 Thread Tee G. Peng




I agree with you: the 'hover' technique is way more annoying, and  
it will annoy way more people.




Thanks all for your response. I now can clearly see I got myself  
carried away by my 'try-to-do-thing-right' little obsession :)


Ok, three of you said skip to content is of little use in this site,  
but if I still want to keep it (and able to keep client happy), I  
suppose this won't upset users right?


#skip_nav a {display: block;padding: 0.35em;text-indent: -200em;text- 
decoration: none;}


John said don't use display:block. Actually the very reason I used it  
is because I want a user able to click on any area of the top. Is  
this as bad as the annoying hover effect?


Georg, can you kindly take a look on IE6?  The horizontal menu  
doesn't load smoothly, when the page is fully loaded, the header's  
part reloads, I suspect it has to do with the clear both class yet I  
can't figure  a fix for IE (tried all tricks from hasLayout)


div id=header
h1 id=logobackground image spanxxx/span/h1
div id=header_search/div
div class=clear !-- without clear:both the horizontal menu  
moves up, sits below the search field --/div

div id=menu
liHome/li
lixxx/li
/ul
/div
div class=clear !-- the gray background won't show up without  
clearing --/div

/div

#logo {float: left}
#header search {float:right}
#menu{background:#f3f3f3;width:100%;margin-top:0}
.clear {height:0;clear:both}

IEs show a  6px to 8px gap between h1 logo and the menu., so I have
margin-top: -6px for IEs. my guess is the clear class causing it.
It works except that in IE 6, as described, the header reloads after  
the page fully loaded.


Thanks!

tee






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Re: [WSG] skip to content: care of accessibility causing usability

2007-10-28 Thread Anders Nawroth

Hi!

Tee G. Peng skrev:
Thanks to your influences,  it has become my second nature to have 'skip 
to content' 


I use to do it the other way around, having the content first in source 
and using a link to get to the navigation. And then I simply put a link 
to the menu, not anything about skipping (all normal links tells you 
where they go, not where they don't go). Example:


http://treemenu.nornix.com/

It's the first link on the page. Could be styled more like a heading or 
something. In this case there's also a little bit JavaScript magic in 
the link ...


/andersN



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Re: [WSG] skip to content: care of accessibility causing usability

2007-10-28 Thread Stuart Foulstone
But the point is that, this accessibility feature is for people who can't
use a mouse - i.e. they cannot click anywhere.


On Sun, October 28, 2007 6:46 am, Tee G. Peng wrote:


 John said don't use display:block. Actually the very reason I used it
 is because I want a user able to click on any area of the top. Is
 this as bad as the annoying hover effect?






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Re: [WSG] skip to content: care of accessibility causing usability

2007-10-28 Thread Tee G. Peng


On Oct 28, 2007, at 3:56 AM, Stuart Foulstone wrote:

But the point is that, this accessibility feature is for people who  
can't

use a mouse - i.e. they cannot click anywhere.



Ah yah right A good point you have made. I am a 'mouse' user, and  
I do find skip to (content/navigation) useful for me. Now you pointed  
out ( John and other did too but I was blind :) ), makes me realized   
I was mainly viewing this feature from my own' benefit.


Glad that I asked. Sometimes one has to show one's ignorance so one  
can learn something important :)


tee


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Re: [WSG] skip to content: care of accessibility causing usability

2007-10-28 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Stuart Foulstone wrote:

But the point is that, this accessibility feature is for people who can't
use a mouse - i.e. they cannot click anywhere.


In general parlance, click has become the general term for activate. 
Keyboard users won't walk away offended by the use of that term (just 
the same way that, for instance, a blind colleague I used to work with 
generally used the phrase see you later).


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team
http://streetteam.webstandards.org/
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Re: [WSG] skip to content: care of accessibility causing usability

2007-10-28 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Philippe Wittenbergh wrote:

A compromise solution I have used: when a client doesn't want them, hide 
them (position them of screen, not display:none), but make them visible 
when those links are focussed (by pressing the tab key).


Yup, I've used that approach on www.salford.ac.uk and it works 
reasonably well.


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team
http://streetteam.webstandards.org/
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RE: [WSG] skip to content: care of accessibility causing usability

2007-10-28 Thread Steve Green
Most disabled users, particularly sight impaired, will use your header
markup to navigate the page rather than skip links

Really? How will they do that? And what makes you believe that this is the
case?

...an accessible browser like Firefox which allows them to display a header
list...

No it doesn't. There is probably an extension that does this, but in my
experience Firefox is used even less commonly by people with disabilities
than it is by fully able users.

I suspect that more people use keyboard navigation or keyboard equivalents
than use screen readers, and a 'skip to contents' link is helpful for them.
Even if they are using a user agent that uses headers for navigation, a
'skip to content' link saves several clicks, which is important for people
with limited mobility.

Steve



Hi Tee,

I appreciate your desire to provide navigational accessibility for disabled
users however Skip to content is not the best way to do it. Most disabled
users, particularly sight impaired, will use your header markup to navigate
the page rather than skip links. Most often the audience who need the skip
nav functionality will be using an accessible browser like Firefox which
allows them to display a header list whereby they can easily surf through a
properly structured page which makes use of header tags.

You've done a fairly good job on the teesworks page using header tags so the
skip to content link is not going to serve much purpose. Also keep in mind
that display:none and visibility:hidden remove content from screen readers.
A screen reader will not pick up elements styled like that so unless that's
your purpose, don't use those kinds of rules in your CSS for markup you
intend for a screen reader.

Nice page btw.

-Tim
--

Tim Offenstein  ***  Campus Accessibility Liaison  ***  (217)
244-2700
 CITES Departmental Services  ***  www.uiuc.edu/goto/offenstein



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[WSG] Toggle L2 menu items (within WCAG)

2007-10-28 Thread Simon Cockayne
Hi,

I am using an ul to store level 1 menu items li, each of which directs
to a page representing a topic.

I know have a requirement to add in level 2 menu items (zero or more
beneath each L1 menu item, when user clicks(selects) an L1 menu, the L2
options should become visible.

ul id=navmenu
   li id=t-Home class=L1a href=index.htmlHome/a/li
   li id=t-Bio class=L1a href=Bio.htmlBio/a/li
   li id=t-Research class=L1a href=Research.htmlResearch/a/li
   li id=t-Teaching class=L1Teaching
  ul
 li id=t-TeachingClasses class=L2a
href=T1.htmlClasses/a/li

 li id=t-TeachingCases class=L2a href=T2.html
Cases/a/li
 /ul
   /li
   li id=t-Links class=L1a href=Links.htmlLinks/a/li
/ul


I've started down the rod of using DOM scripting...to remove the L2 items
when the page loads and then toggle there addition/removal when a L1 item is
clickedbut the JS is getting complicated...trying to support IE and
Firefox.

Is there a CSS way that can:

A) Show ALL items of CSS is no supported (for WCAG).
B) NOT impact SEO.

Cheers,

Simon


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Re: [WSG] skip to content: care of accessibility causing usability

2007-10-28 Thread Stuart Foulstone

On Sun, October 28, 2007 6:38 pm, Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
 Stuart Foulstone wrote:
 But the point is that, this accessibility feature is for people who
 can't
 use a mouse - i.e. they cannot click anywhere.

 In general parlance, click has become the general term for activate.
 Keyboard users won't walk away offended by the use of that term (just
 the same way that, for instance, a blind colleague I used to work with
 generally used the phrase see you later).

 P
 --
 Patrick H. Lauke
 __


That may well be true, but irrelevant to this discussion.

Tee was enlarging the clickable area of a skip to content link with the
intention of making it easier to use.





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Re: [WSG] skip to content: care of accessibility causing usability

2007-10-28 Thread Tee G. Peng

Georg, thank you so much!

IE6 displayed correctly except the header problem I wrote. I did  a  
lot of tweaking in the main stylesheet after my post , and didn't get  
to check on IE6. You saw the 'wrong version' :), but I notice the  
header's reloads disappered now the right column sits below the  
left.  this makes me rethink maybe the mini-cart that has negative  
margin top causing (I ruled this out before), or the auto-expansion.


Thanks for the advice on hasLayout tricks. I will give it more  
thought next time I tempt to use again.




A fixed-width approach will _just work_ in all browsers, and make it
much easier to get IE6 to behave like a browser.


I need to accommodate 800px screen for a very specific reason, but  
this layout doesn't look good (especially in product page) in 800px.


tee


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Re: [WSG] skip to content: care of accessibility causing usability

2007-10-28 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Stuart Foulstone wrote:


That may well be true, but irrelevant to this discussion.

Tee was enlarging the clickable area of a skip to content link with the
intention of making it easier to use.


oops, right you are. must stop reading emails out of context and jumping 
at things. apologies,


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team
http://streetteam.webstandards.org/
__


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[WSG] worst site I've seen lately

2007-10-28 Thread Devi Web Development
I just found what I consider to be an extremely annoying, very blinky
website someone spent way too much time writing flash for.

http://www.ourtype.be/

---
Daniel Brumbaugh Keeney
Devi Web Development
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
---


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[WSG] Re: worst site I've seen lately

2007-10-28 Thread Devi Web Development
On 10/28/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I just found what I consider to be an extremely annoying, very blinky
 website someone spent way too much time writing flash for.

 http://www.ourtype.be/

Sorry, I didn't intend to send that to wsg, although I guess it's related...

---
Daniel Brumbaugh Keeney
Devi Web Development
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
---


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Re: [WSG] Re: worst site I've seen lately

2007-10-28 Thread Christian Montoya
On 10/28/07, Devi Web Development [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On 10/28/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I just found what I consider to be an extremely annoying, very blinky
  website someone spent way too much time writing flash for.
 
  http://www.ourtype.be/

 Sorry, I didn't intend to send that to wsg, although I guess it's related...

It kind of is... this could have been done with Flash or Javascript,
but the end result would have been the same... bad! Horrible IA here,
I can't really skim or even get an idea about the fonts and I can't
imagine people would really spend time on that site.

-- 
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net


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Re: [WSG] Re: worst site I've seen lately

2007-10-28 Thread Tom Roper

It hurt my eyes!! What an erratic use of flash!

Sent from my iPod Touch


On 29 Oct 2007, at 00:30, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


On 10/28/07, Devi Web Development [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On 10/28/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I just found what I consider to be an extremely annoying, very  
blinky

website someone spent way too much time writing flash for.

http://www.ourtype.be/


Sorry, I didn't intend to send that to wsg, although I guess it's  
related...


It kind of is... this could have been done with Flash or Javascript,
but the end result would have been the same... bad! Horrible IA here,
I can't really skim or even get an idea about the fonts and I can't
imagine people would really spend time on that site.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net


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RE: [WSG] Re: worst site I've seen lately

2007-10-28 Thread Ted Drake
Welcome to the world of post-iPhone web design.
I've already seen a Yahoo maps hack that adds the same sliding behavior.
Ted


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom Roper
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2007 6:23 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Re: worst site I've seen lately

It hurt my eyes!! What an erratic use of flash!

Sent from my iPod Touch


On 29 Oct 2007, at 00:30, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On 10/28/07, Devi Web Development [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On 10/28/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I just found what I consider to be an extremely annoying, very  
 blinky
 website someone spent way too much time writing flash for.

 http://www.ourtype.be/

 Sorry, I didn't intend to send that to wsg, although I guess it's  
 related...

 It kind of is... this could have been done with Flash or Javascript,
 but the end result would have been the same... bad! Horrible IA here,
 I can't really skim or even get an idea about the fonts and I can't
 imagine people would really spend time on that site.

 -- 
 --
 Christian Montoya
 christianmontoya.net


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Re: [WSG] Toggle L2 menu items (within WCAG)

2007-10-28 Thread JonMarc Wright
If you can make the L2 items show up when the L1 is *hovered over* instead
of clicked, then you can do that using css.  it will require some outside
scripts (usually either javascript or .htc) to get it working in all major
modern browsers, but there are a lot of tutorials out there.

you could check out sons of suckerfish at:
http://www.htmldog.com/articles/suckerfish/
that one uses some javascript to get it working

you could also take a look at:
http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/keyboard_friendly_dropdown_menu/default.asp
that one uses proprietary .htc scripts to get it functioning cross browser i
believe.

i've used both with good results.

take care,
jm

On 10/29/07, Simon Cockayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hi,

 I am using an ul to store level 1 menu items li, each of which
 directs to a page representing a topic.

 I know have a requirement to add in level 2 menu items (zero or more
 beneath each L1 menu item, when user clicks(selects) an L1 menu, the L2
 options should become visible.

 ul id=navmenu
li id=t-Home class=L1a href=index.htmlHome/a/li
li id=t-Bio class=L1a href= Bio.htmlBio/a/li
li id=t-Research class=L1a href=Research.html
 Research/a/li
li id=t-Teaching class=L1Teaching
   ul
  li id=t-TeachingClasses class=L2a 
 href=T1.htmlClasses/a/li

  li id=t-TeachingCases class=L2a href= T2.html
 Cases/a/li
  /ul
/li
li id=t-Links class=L1a href=Links.htmlLinks/a/li
 /ul


 I've started down the rod of using DOM scripting...to remove the L2 items
 when the page loads and then toggle there addition/removal when a L1 item is
 clickedbut the JS is getting complicated...trying to support IE and
 Firefox.

 Is there a CSS way that can:

 A) Show ALL items of CSS is no supported (for WCAG).
 B) NOT impact SEO.

 Cheers,

 Simon

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Re: [WSG] Toggle L2 menu items (within WCAG)

2007-10-28 Thread Kit Grose

JonMarc,

It sounds to me like he's referring more to a tree layout than a drop- 
down menu.


If that's the case, it's exactly what I'm researching at the current  
time, so I have a few good links you might like to visit (all use  
JavaScript; CSS can't handle 'clicks' natively with any sort of  
control):


This is quite an old example, but it's worked well for me in the  
past. Completely unobtrusive, but requires an initiation call to a  
specific ID:

http://www.dynamicdrive.com/dynamicindex1/navigate1.htm

This one is quite nice, but needs some CSS work:
http://krijnhoetmer.nl/stuff/javascript/list-treeview-menu/

This one is great and very small (looks like it'll be the one I'll be  
using soon):

http://www.silverstripe.com/tree-control/

If you're already using jQuery, this one looks like a good idea (but  
obviously requires the jQuery library):

http://jquery.bassistance.de/treeview/

YUI includes its own but it is by no means SEO compatible. This one  
is an attempt to modify it so it doesn't affect SEO:

http://blog.davglass.com/files/yui/treetest/


Hope that helps.

If anyone has any other good ones (particularly any that benefit from  
prototype.js already being used), I'm very interested to hear!


Cheers,

Kit Grose


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RE: [WSG] Toggle L2 menu items (within WCAG)

2007-10-28 Thread Frank Palinkas
Hi Simon,

 

I’m working on a similar issue using unobtrusive DOM/JavaScript to produce
the expand/collapse effect of nested unordered list items in a navigation
tree structure. This method (related containers) allows activation by both
mouse and keyboard, and the expanded nested list items remain open until
collapsed by the user. All DOM/Javascript is external to the structure layer
of the web page, along with event handlers and presentation layer styles. Gez
Lemon, from The Paciello Group (hi Steve), was instrumental in helping me get
the DOM/JavaScript sorted out – he is absolutely brilliant. There is still
some work to do on it, but the initial behavior layer is working properly.
This is definitely not the only way to accomplish this, but I thought It may
add to the suggestions being made by other list members. I can email you a
small zipped sample project folder for your inspection and possible use, if
you feel this may help. Please let me know?

 

Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help

W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert

M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+   

Senior Technical Communicator 

Web Standards  Accessibility Designer 

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Simon Cockayne
Sent: Sunday, 28 October, 2007 22:10 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Toggle L2 menu items (within WCAG)

 

Hi,

I am using an ul to store level 1 menu items li, each of which directs
to a page representing a topic.

I know have a requirement to add in level 2 menu items (zero or more
beneath each L1 menu item, when user clicks(selects) an L1 menu, the L2
options should become visible. 

ul id=navmenu
   li id=t-Home class=L1a href=index.htmlHome/a/li
   li id=t-Bio class=L1a href= Bio.htmlBio/a/li 
   li id=t-Research class=L1a href=Research.htmlResearch/a/li
   li id=t-Teaching class=L1Teaching 
  ul
 li id=t-TeachingClasses class=L2a
href=T1.htmlClasses/a/li 
 li id=t-TeachingCases class=L2a href=
T2.htmlCases/a/li
 /ul 
   /li
   li id=t-Links class=L1a href=Links.htmlLinks/a/li 
/ul 


I've started down the rod of using DOM scripting...to remove the L2 items
when the page loads and then toggle there addition/removal when a L1 item is
clickedbut the JS is getting complicated...trying to support IE and
Firefox. 

Is there a CSS way that can:

A) Show ALL items of CSS is no supported (for WCAG).
B) NOT impact SEO.

Cheers,

Simon

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