[ADMIN: THREAD CAUTION] Re: [WSG] Electronic forms building software

2008-02-05 Thread Lea de Groot
On Tue, 5 Feb 2008 14:53:22 +1100, Jessica Enders wrote:
 I was wondering what WYSIWYG electronic (web and other) forms 
 building software would you recommend or avoid? I'm interested in 
 experience with Form Assembly, in particular.
 
 The sorts of things I'm interested in feedback on include Wufoo, 
 Icebrrg, SurveyMonkey, Zoomerang, QuestionPro, Vovici, FormSite, 
 ColdFusion, InfoPath, Adobe LiveCycle and SnapForm.

Hi guys,

I don't think this is an on on-topic thread, but feel free to reply - 
if you can keep it to a discussion of standards.
Any off topic responses should go directly to Jessica.

warmly,
Lea
-- 
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WSG Core Member


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[WSG] Hero Style Presentation

2008-02-05 Thread Web Man Walking
Hello

I remember seeing a few years ago a presentation done (in HTML) about Web
Standards.  It had a whole load of Super hero / Roy Lichtenstein style
graphics.  Anyone have a link, I really would appreciate it?

Thanks

E.



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Re: [WSG] Hero Style Presentation

2008-02-05 Thread David Dorward


On 5 Feb 2008, at 09:43, Web Man Walking wrote:


Hello

I remember seeing a few years ago a presentation done (in HTML)  
about Web

Standards.  It had a whole load of Super hero / Roy Lichtenstein style
graphics.  Anyone have a link, I really would appreciate it?


Is this what you mean? http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/

--
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk/
http://blog.dorward.me.uk/




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RE: [WSG] Hero Style Presentation

2008-02-05 Thread Web Man Walking
Hurrah!  Thank you.

  _  

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Dorward
Sent: 05 February 2008 10:02
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Hero Style Presentation



On 5 Feb 2008, at 09:43, Web Man Walking wrote:


Hello

I remember seeing a few years ago a presentation done (in HTML) about Web
Standards. It had a whole load of Super hero / Roy Lichtenstein style
graphics. Anyone have a link, I really would appreciate it?


Is this what you mean? http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/

-- 
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk/
http://blog.dorward.me.uk/



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Re: [WSG] Electronic forms building software

2008-02-05 Thread Peter Mount

Jessica Enders wrote:

Hi all

I was wondering what WYSIWYG electronic (web and other) forms building 
software would you recommend or avoid? I'm interested in experience with 
Form Assembly, in particular.


The sorts of things I'm interested in feedback on include Wufoo, 
Icebrrg, SurveyMonkey, Zoomerang, QuestionPro, Vovici, FormSite, 
ColdFusion, InfoPath, Adobe LiveCycle and SnapForm.


Thanks in anticipation,


Jessica Enders
Director
Formulate Information Design

http://formulate.com.au

Phone: (02) 6116 8765
Fax: (02) 8456 5916
PO Box 5108
Braddon ACT 2612



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You would be better off to look at these tutorials on Accessible 
html/xhtml forms at:


http://www.webstandards.org/learn/tutorials/accessible-forms/

I know you asked about WYSIWYG tools for this but if your looking for 
experience in forms then your much better off starting by learning how 
to them without a WYSIWYG tool. These tutorials on the Web Standards 
Project web site (after you look at the forms tutorial on 
http://www.w3schools.com/) will give you a grounding for judging other 
tools.


Have fun

--
Peter Mount
Web Development for Business
Mobile: 0411 276602
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.petermount.com


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RE: [WSG] Electronic forms building software

2008-02-05 Thread Andrew Boyd
Peter,

Jessica has been designing forms for years and seems (based on my observations) 
to have a fair handle on web standards/accessibility and form coding without 
tools. I guess that rather than beginner advice she was after a way to code 
them using tools in a standards compliant way, but I will leave this to her to 
confirm :)

Cheers, Andrew

Andrew Boyd
Consultant
SMS Management  Technology

M 0413 048 542
T +61 2 6279 7100
F +61 2 6279 7101
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
About SMS: Ground Floor, 8 Brindabella Circuit, CANBERRA AIRPORT  ACT  2609  
www.smsmt.com
SMS Management  Technology (SMS) [ASX:SMX] is Australia's largest, publicly 
listed Management Services company. We solve complex problems and transform 
business through Consulting, People and Technology

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Peter Mount [EMAIL 
PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, 5 February 2008 10:46 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Electronic forms building software


You would be better off to look at these tutorials on Accessible
html/xhtml forms at:

http://www.webstandards.org/learn/tutorials/accessible-forms/

I know you asked about WYSIWYG tools for this but if your looking for
experience in forms then your much better off starting by learning how
to them without a WYSIWYG tool. These tutorials on the Web Standards
Project web site (after you look at the forms tutorial on
http://www.w3schools.com/) will give you a grounding for judging other
tools.

Have fun

--
Peter Mount
Web Development for Business
Mobile: 0411 276602
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.petermount.com


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[WSG] PHP includes

2008-02-05 Thread Michael Horowitz
If I am including a menu using the PHP include command but the actuual 
menu is an html list does the included file need to have its code 
including the css style sheet or will it use the style sheet of the page 
it is included to.


Also is their a preference in web standards for using PHP includes or 
something like SSI?


--
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Your Computer Consultant
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561-394-9079



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Re: [WSG] PHP includes

2008-02-05 Thread Joseph Taylor
You don't need to add any styles to the include file.  Keep in mind the 
php does its stuff long before any css rules get applied which happens 
only after the dom is loaded into the user's browser.


I cannot speak for SSI as I've never used it once. Always did asp/php 
includes.


Joseph R. B. Taylor
/Designer / Developer/
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/Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/
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Fax: (866) 301-8045
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Michael Horowitz wrote:
If I am including a menu using the PHP include command but the actuual 
menu is an html list does the included file need to have its code 
including the css style sheet or will it use the style sheet of the 
page it is included to.


Also is their a preference in web standards for using PHP includes or 
something like SSI?





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org:Sites by Joe, LLC
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email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
title:Designer / Developer
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tel;cell:609-335-3076
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end:vcard




Re: [WSG] PHP includes

2008-02-05 Thread Ken Robinson

Quoting Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


If I am including a menu using the PHP include command but the actuual
menu is an html list does the included file need to have its code
including the css style sheet or will it use the style sheet of the
page it is included to.



Any text that's in the PHP include file that is not PHP code is passed  
directly to the browser as part of the HTML code. Therefore it does  
not need it's own CSS style sheet.


Ken



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Re: [WSG] PHP includes

2008-02-05 Thread Christian Snodgrass
You can basically think of a PHP include as basically just copying 
everything from the included file into the file it is being included in.


Ken Robinson wrote:

Quoting Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


If I am including a menu using the PHP include command but the actuual
menu is an html list does the included file need to have its code
including the css style sheet or will it use the style sheet of the
page it is included to.



Any text that's in the PHP include file that is not PHP code is passed 
directly to the browser as part of the HTML code. Therefore it does 
not need it's own CSS style sheet.


Ken



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Phone: 859.816.7955



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Re: [WSG] PHP includes

2008-02-05 Thread John Faulds
Also is their a preference in web standards for using PHP includes or  
something like SSI?


SSI stands for server side include which is essentially what a PHP include  
is. The only difference is the syntax used to call the include.




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CLOSED Re: [WSG] PHP includes

2008-02-05 Thread James Ellis
Hi

This discussion is off topic for the WSG list. If you would like to respond to 
Michael, please do so off list.

The list guidelines are available at the footer of each list email.

Thanks
James
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cc:core

On Wed, 6 Feb 2008 07:34:22 am Michael Horowitz wrote:
 If I am including a menu using the PHP include command but the actuual
 menu is an html list does the included file need to have its code
 including the css style sheet or will it use the style sheet of the page
 it is included to.

 Also is their a preference in web standards for using PHP includes or
 something like SSI?




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[WSG] making a menu bar hug the right

2008-02-05 Thread Michael Horowitz
Sorry for the flurry of questions but I've traditionally done my sites 
with tables and am doing my first completely css site now 
http://terrorfreeamerica.us/


Just setting up the menu on the left and I'm wondering how to get my 
menu buttons to hug the left hand side of menu div.  Currently its 
hugging the right.  I thought setting the width to 98% would keep it 
virtually the same size of the entire div.


--
Michael Horowitz
Your Computer Consultant
http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
561-394-9079



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Re: [WSG] making a menu bar hug the right

2008-02-05 Thread Ron Zisman


On Feb 5, 2008, at 8:51 PM, Michael Horowitz wrote:

Sorry for the flurry of questions but I've traditionally done my  
sites with tables and am doing my first completely css site now  
http://terrorfreeamerica.us/


Just setting up the menu on the left and I'm wondering how to get  
my menu buttons to hug the left hand side of menu div.  Currently  
its hugging the right.  I thought setting the width to 98% would  
keep it virtually the same size of the entire div.


did you try:
#menu {text-align:left;} ?

--ron


--
Michael Horowitz
Your Computer Consultant
http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
561-394-9079



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[WSG] display differences firefox ie 7.0

2008-02-05 Thread Michael Horowitz
I've noticed that my site is centered it ie 7.0 but left justified in 
firefox http://terrorfreeamerica.us/.  What are the issues and 
workarounds to keep them in sync. In this case I would like it centered 
both ways but I would love to know how to do it either way.


Thanks

--
Michael Horowitz
Your Computer Consultant
http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
561-394-9079



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Re: [WSG] making a menu bar hug the right

2008-02-05 Thread David Laakso

Michael Horowitz wrote:

http://terrorfreeamerica.us/

Just setting up the menu on the left and I'm wondering how to get my 
menu buttons to hug the left hand side of menu div.




ul {
margin: 0;  -- :: add ::
padding: 0; - :: add ::
list-style: none;
}


Best,
~dL





--
http://chelseacreekstudio.com/



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Re: [WSG] making a menu bar hug the right

2008-02-05 Thread veine
Good Evening Michael;

To your ul rule add no padding and no margin, ie

ul {
 list-style: none;
 padding: 0 auto;
 margin: 0 auto;
 }

That should help it out.

  HTH
Regards
  ~Veine


snip
On 5 Feb 2008 at 20:51, Michael Horowitz wrote:

 Sorry for the flurry of questions but I've traditionally done my sites 
 with tables and am doing my first completely css site now 
 http://terrorfreeamerica.us/
 
 Just setting up the menu on the left and I'm wondering how to get my 
 menu buttons to hug the left hand side of menu div.  Currently its 
 hugging the right.  I thought setting the width to 98% would keep it 
 virtually the same size of the entire div.

/snip


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Re: [WSG] display differences firefox ie 7.0

2008-02-05 Thread Adam Martin

#wrapper {
   margin: 0 auto;
   padding: 0;
   text-align: left;
   width: 950px;
}

Cheers
Adam


Michael Horowitz wrote:
I've noticed that my site is centered it ie 7.0 but left justified in 
firefox http://terrorfreeamerica.us/.  What are the issues and 
workarounds to keep them in sync. In this case I would like it 
centered both ways but I would love to know how to do it either way.


Thanks




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Re: [WSG] display differences firefox ie 7.0

2008-02-05 Thread Christian Snodgrass

In wrapper, change the margin to be:
margin: 0 auto;

To center block-level elements, you set margin-left: auto and 
margin-right: auto (margin: 0 auto is a shortcut for that). In IE, at 
least IE6, it wrongfully would let you use text-align: center to 
position block level elements. Not sure about IE7. FF only lets you use 
the margin method.


Michael Horowitz wrote:
I've noticed that my site is centered it ie 7.0 but left justified in 
firefox http://terrorfreeamerica.us/.  What are the issues and 
workarounds to keep them in sync. In this case I would like it 
centered both ways but I would love to know how to do it either way.


Thanks




--

Christian Snodgrass
Azure Ronin Web Design
http://www.arwebdesign.net/ http://www.arwebdesign.net
Phone: 859.816.7955



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Re: [WSG] display differences firefox ie 7.0

2008-02-05 Thread veine
Hello again Michael;

Same story different instance, in this case the wrapper needs to have them, ie.

#wrapper {
 text-align: left;
 margin: 0 auto;
 padding: 0 auto;
 width: 950px;
}

  HTH

~Veine


snip
On 5 Feb 2008 at 21:10, Michael Horowitz wrote:

 I've noticed that my site is centered it ie 7.0 but left justified in 
 firefox http://terrorfreeamerica.us/. 
/snip


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Re: [WSG] display differences firefox ie 7.0

2008-02-05 Thread Rohini Goyal
Try
#wrapper {
margin: 0px auto;
}

On Feb 6, 2008 1:10 PM, Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 I've noticed that my site is centered it ie 7.0 but left justified in
 firefox http://terrorfreeamerica.us/.  What are the issues and
 workarounds to keep them in sync. In this case I would like it centered
 both ways but I would love to know how to do it either way.

 Thanks

 --
 Michael Horowitz
 Your Computer Consultant
 http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
 561-394-9079



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-- 
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If you make a copy of your system configuration nine out of ten times, the
tenth time is the only time you'll need it.


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[WSG] Styling forms

2008-02-05 Thread Michael Horowitz
I've been looking at styling forms and I'm seeing some people mark them 
up as ordered lists and other using paragraphs.  What are the arguments 
for the different markup types.  


--
Michael Horowitz
Your Computer Consultant
http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
561-394-9079



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Re: [WSG] Styling forms

2008-02-05 Thread Jermayn Parker
good question!!
I personally used to use lists then i realised that paragraphs actually use
these code (both html and css) and is easier to stylise!

I wrote some of my thoughts hear a week or so ago!
http://germworks.net/blog/2008/01/23/lists-p-whats-best-for-forms/




On Feb 6, 2008 12:38 PM, Michael Horowitz 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I've been looking at styling forms and I'm seeing some people mark them
 up as ordered lists and other using paragraphs.  What are the arguments
 for the different markup types.

 --
 Michael Horowitz
 Your Computer Consultant
 http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
 561-394-9079



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http://www.germworks.net


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Re: [WSG] Styling forms

2008-02-05 Thread Matt Fellows
Forms should be marked up as you would anything else; If you are placing a
paragraph in the form you should use a p. If you are placing a list inside
the form you should use a ul/ol, if you are placing headings inside the
form you should use h1-h6 etc. etc.
The inputs should be arranged using div's instead of tables of course,
unless you are presenting tabular data inside the form.

Simple hey!

On 2/6/08, Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I've been looking at styling forms and I'm seeing some people mark them
 up as ordered lists and other using paragraphs.  What are the arguments
 for the different markup types.

 --
 Michael Horowitz
 Your Computer Consultant
 http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
 561-394-9079



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Re: [WSG] Styling forms

2008-02-05 Thread Christian Snodgrass
It kind of depends on the form itself. Definition lists and unordered 
lists also are used a lot.


Usually, I would say unordered or definition lists are the most 
appropriate. If the questions were numbered, I could see using ordered 
lists. Paragraphs are kind of the lazy way. You can also use field sets, 
which are really appropriate for groups of related items.

Michael Horowitz wrote:
I've been looking at styling forms and I'm seeing some people mark 
them up as ordered lists and other using paragraphs.  What are the 
arguments for the different markup types. 



--

Christian Snodgrass
Azure Ronin Web Design
http://www.arwebdesign.net/ http://www.arwebdesign.net
Phone: 859.816.7955



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RE: [WSG] Styling forms

2008-02-05 Thread Steve Green
There may be specific cases where it would be right to mark up a form as a
list, although I can't think of one. As a general rule it would be wrong.

The argument against marking up a form as a list is that a form is not a
list. A form is one or more groups of form controls, and the fieldset
element is the correct means by which form controls should be grouped.
Within a fieldset, paragraph elements should be used for individual form
controls.

Steve

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Michael Horowitz
Sent: 06 February 2008 03:38
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Styling forms

I've been looking at styling forms and I'm seeing some people mark them up
as ordered lists and other using paragraphs.  What are the arguments for the
different markup types.  

--
Michael Horowitz
Your Computer Consultant
http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
561-394-9079



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RE: [WSG] Styling forms

2008-02-05 Thread sri kumar
 

Hi Germ17,I have seen your example presented in GERMWORKS.NETFYI, your approach 
is perfect to my knowledge, but the INPUT element should not wrapped by any 
LABEL element. It's not compliant/accessible...I request you to modify this 
example according to standards, if you believe
the same.

Thanks, 
Srikumar 
McAfee Inc  |  Project Lead  |  Webstandard Guy 
Mobile: +91 98800 31872 


Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 12:52:58 +0900
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms

good question!!
I personally used to use lists then i realised that paragraphs actually use 
these code (both html and css) and is easier to stylise!
 
I wrote some of my thoughts hear a week or so ago!
http://germworks.net/blog/2008/01/23/lists-p-whats-best-for-forms/
 


 
On Feb 6, 2008 12:38 PM, Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I've been looking at styling forms and I'm seeing some people mark them
up as ordered lists and other using paragraphs.  What are the arguments

for the different markup types.

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561-394-9079




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Re: [WSG] Styling forms

2008-02-05 Thread Thomas Thomassen
Have a look at this article on A List Apart: 
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/prettyaccessibleforms
If you haven't been too that site before then have a snoop around. They got 
lots of really good articles.



- Original Message - 
From: Christian Snodgrass [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 4:50 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms


It kind of depends on the form itself. Definition lists and unordered 
lists also are used a lot.


Usually, I would say unordered or definition lists are the most 
appropriate. If the questions were numbered, I could see using ordered 
lists. Paragraphs are kind of the lazy way. You can also use field sets, 
which are really appropriate for groups of related items.

Michael Horowitz wrote:
I've been looking at styling forms and I'm seeing some people mark them 
up as ordered lists and other using paragraphs.  What are the arguments 
for the different markup types.



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Re: [WSG] Styling forms

2008-02-05 Thread Thomas Thomassen
When the LABEL element wraps around INPUT you do not need the FOR 
attribute.The hierarchy provides the connection between them. However, when 
the LABEL does not wrap around the INPUT, the FOR attribute is required for 
useragent to know the elements are related.



- Original Message - 
From: John Faulds [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 7:42 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms


Hi Germ17,I have seen your example presented in GERMWORKS.NETFYI, your 
approach is perfect to my knowledge, but the INPUT element should not 
wrapped by any LABEL element. It's not compliant/accessible...I 
request you to modify this example according to standards, if you believe

the same.


You're wrong there. It's perfectly valid HTML and I don't believe it is 
any less accessible as long as the 'for' attribute is specified.



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