RE: [WSG] display differences firefox ie 7.0
If you place text-align: center; on the body tag in the CSS and then margin:
auto; on the first 'container' divider then the web page should be
centralised in Firefox and IE.
Like this:
body { text-align: center; }
#container { width: 960px; margin: auto; }
HTH
Darren Lovelock
Munky Online Web Design
http://www.munkyonline.co.uk/ http://www.munkyonline.co.uk
T: +44 (0)20-8816-8893
_
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Thomas Thomassen
Sent: 07 February 2008 07:40
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] display differences firefox ie 7.0
On having Layout is a good article that gives good insight to most of IE's
quirks: http://www.satzansatz.de/cssd/onhavinglayout.html
- Original Message -
From: Joe Ortenzi mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 8:14 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] display differences firefox ie 7.0
MH:
Someone earlier this week sent a very good presentation that explained a lot
of the problems you are facing. It is quite a long presentation (more of a
lesson really!) but it answers a lot of the problems you are having. There
are also a collection of great links sprinkled through that we could all
find useful in our bookmarks list.
give it a whirl!
http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/
Joe
On Feb 6 2008, at 02:10, Michael Horowitz wrote:
I've noticed that my site is centered it ie 7.0 but left justified in
firefox http://terrorfreeamerica.us/. What are the issues and workarounds
to keep them in sync. In this case I would like it centered both ways but I
would love to know how to do it either way.
Thanks
--
Michael Horowitz
Your Computer Consultant
http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
561-394-9079
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
Joe Ortenzi
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.joiz.com
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
Re: [WSG] Styling forms
On Feb 6, 2008 6:03 AM, sri kumar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FYI, your approach is perfect to my knowledge, but the INPUT element should not wrapped by any LABEL element. It's not compliant/accessible... For somebody labelling themselves Webstandard guy, your knowledge is scarily off-base. FWIW, I think a form can easily be construed as being a list, whether ordered or unordered - it's a list of questions to which you have to provide the answers - so using a UL or OL is absolutely an acceptable solution. DL isn't for reasons that everyone should be aware of. They are also not paragraphs, so wrapping form elements in P is also not a suitable choice. Developers should also be aware of the way in which assistive technology such as screenreaders interacts for forms, specifically the forms mode that many have, where only form-related elements will be read out - this means that paragraphs of text and headings may not be available to screenreader users. -- - Matthew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] running ie7 on my mac??
note to anyone who wants to run ies4mac. install wine verstion .51 the current version doesnt work. -kevin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Styling forms
On Behalf Of Thomas Thomassen Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:29 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms While I see your point, what I find to be troublesome is that Label and Input are inline elements. While it's easy to wrap the Inputs in Labels and make the Labels block elements, with just plain HTML and no CSS that means a form's elements will end up all in one long line. fwiw, I think BRs are the perfect fit. -- Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Styling forms
fwiw, I think BRs are the perfect fit. I agree. :) Mike - Original Message - From: Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 1:55 PM Subject: RE: [WSG] Styling forms On Behalf Of Thomas Thomassen Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:29 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms While I see your point, what I find to be troublesome is that Label and Input are inline elements. While it's easy to wrap the Inputs in Labels and make the Labels block elements, with just plain HTML and no CSS that means a form's elements will end up all in one long line. fwiw, I think BRs are the perfect fit. -- Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Styling forms
On Behalf Of Thierry Koblentz Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:29 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms TK fwiw, I think BRs are the perfect fit. BRs? Are BRs semantically correct? I believe they aren't. -- Regards, Alexey Novikov http://studiomade.ru *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Styling forms
Still need some extra elements to organise them. Such as lists. I don't know why that would be. Proper use of form elements is the only organizational support needed. In my opinion, use of any other non-form elements on form's isn't necessary, or advantageous and, if not careful, can actually take away from the form. Just like a p doesn't need a td, a label + input combo doesn't need an li. Old conversation, I know, but I just had to chime in. Cheers. Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com/ - Original Message - From: Thomas Thomassen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms Fieldsets and Labels is present in HTML4 as well. Don't see anything new about that. Still need some extra elements to organise them. Such as lists. - Original Message - From: Joe Ortenzi To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 8:36 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms Has anyone looked up the HTML 5 pages on form elements? http://www.w3.org/TR/html5-diff/ http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#forms It's all fieldsets and labels... which makes more semantic sense than paragraphs, lists, and dd/dl JOe On Feb 6 2008, at 04:06, Steve Green wrote: There may be specific cases where it would be right to mark up a form as a list, although I can't think of one. As a general rule it would be wrong. The argument against marking up a form as a list is that a form is not a list. A form is one or more groups of form controls, and the fieldset element is the correct means by which form controls should be grouped. Within a fieldset, paragraph elements should be used for individual form controls. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Horowitz Sent: 06 February 2008 03:38 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Styling forms I've been looking at styling forms and I'm seeing some people mark them up as ordered lists and other using paragraphs. What are the arguments for the different markup types. -- Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Styling forms
Fieldsets and Labels is present in HTML4 as well. Don't see anything new about that. Still need some extra elements to organise them. Such as lists. - Original Message - From: Joe Ortenzi To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 8:36 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms Has anyone looked up the HTML 5 pages on form elements? http://www.w3.org/TR/html5-diff/ http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#forms It's all fieldsets and labels... which makes more semantic sense than paragraphs, lists, and dd/dl JOe On Feb 6 2008, at 04:06, Steve Green wrote: There may be specific cases where it would be right to mark up a form as a list, although I can't think of one. As a general rule it would be wrong. The argument against marking up a form as a list is that a form is not a list. A form is one or more groups of form controls, and the fieldset element is the correct means by which form controls should be grouped. Within a fieldset, paragraph elements should be used for individual form controls. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Horowitz Sent: 06 February 2008 03:38 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Styling forms I've been looking at styling forms and I'm seeing some people mark them up as ordered lists and other using paragraphs. What are the arguments for the different markup types. -- Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Styling forms
I was merely highlighting that in the forms section of the HTML 5 diff doc, it describes the structure of forms with fieldsets and labels. Why are lists required? By some reckoning, the fact that one input element follows another means you need to order them. This is a false precept. We do not need to order paragraphs to have _them_ make semantic sense, so why do form input elements need to be listed in an order in addition to the order they are provided in? The label/input relation is similar to DT/DD but since forms have their own version of the label content paradigm, we should use that one within forms, I would have thought. Joe On Feb 7 2008, at 16:05, Thomas Thomassen wrote: Fieldsets and Labels is present in HTML4 as well. Don't see anything new about that. Still need some extra elements to organise them. Such as lists. - Original Message - From: Joe Ortenzi To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 8:36 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms Has anyone looked up the HTML 5 pages on form elements? http://www.w3.org/TR/html5-diff/ http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#forms It's all fieldsets and labels... which makes more semantic sense than paragraphs, lists, and dd/dl JOe On Feb 6 2008, at 04:06, Steve Green wrote: There may be specific cases where it would be right to mark up a form as a list, although I can't think of one. As a general rule it would be wrong. The argument against marking up a form as a list is that a form is not a list. A form is one or more groups of form controls, and the fieldset element is the correct means by which form controls should be grouped. Within a fieldset, paragraph elements should be used for individual form controls. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Horowitz Sent: 06 February 2008 03:38 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Styling forms I've been looking at styling forms and I'm seeing some people mark them up as ordered lists and other using paragraphs. What are the arguments for the different markup types. -- Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] running ie7 on my mac??
I found that out! darwine won't load them On Feb 7 2008, at 13:07, kevin mcmonagle wrote: note to anyone who wants to run ies4mac. install wine verstion .51 the current version doesnt work. -kevin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Styling forms
Well done Alexey! Are we not confusing semantics with presentational here? if it is OK to strip the presentational out of a list element (when we use a list for a navigation group and want our navigation elements in a row instead of a column) what is wrong with supplanting the inline quality of a label/input group by designating it a block element, and then group several form elements, or even each label input group with fieldsets? BTW: br / is the equivalent of a force carriage return and thus belongs within paragraphs, i thought! Joe On Feb 7 2008, at 19:55, Алексей Новиков wrote: On Behalf Of Thierry Koblentz Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:29 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms TK fwiw, I think BRs are the perfect fit. BRs? Are BRs semantically correct? I believe they aren't. -- Regards, Alexey Novikov http://studiomade.ru *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Styling forms
While I see your point, what I find to be troublesome is that Label and Input are inline elements. While it's easy to wrap the Inputs in Labels and make the Labels block elements, with just plain HTML and no CSS that means a form's elements will end up all in one long line. Now, one can assume that most users will be using a user agent applying CSS, so it might not be much of an issue. But I don't see ptd as similar to label + inputli. - Original Message - From: Mike at Green-Beast.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 6:07 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms Still need some extra elements to organise them. Such as lists. I don't know why that would be. Proper use of form elements is the only organizational support needed. In my opinion, use of any other non-form elements on form's isn't necessary, or advantageous and, if not careful, can actually take away from the form. Just like a p doesn't need a td, a label + input combo doesn't need an li. Old conversation, I know, but I just had to chime in. Cheers. Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com/ - Original Message - From: Thomas Thomassen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms Fieldsets and Labels is present in HTML4 as well. Don't see anything new about that. Still need some extra elements to organise them. Such as lists. - Original Message - From: Joe Ortenzi To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 8:36 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms Has anyone looked up the HTML 5 pages on form elements? http://www.w3.org/TR/html5-diff/ http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#forms It's all fieldsets and labels... which makes more semantic sense than paragraphs, lists, and dd/dl JOe On Feb 6 2008, at 04:06, Steve Green wrote: There may be specific cases where it would be right to mark up a form as a list, although I can't think of one. As a general rule it would be wrong. The argument against marking up a form as a list is that a form is not a list. A form is one or more groups of form controls, and the fieldset element is the correct means by which form controls should be grouped. Within a fieldset, paragraph elements should be used for individual form controls. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Horowitz Sent: 06 February 2008 03:38 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Styling forms I've been looking at styling forms and I'm seeing some people mark them up as ordered lists and other using paragraphs. What are the arguments for the different markup types. -- Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Styling forms
On Behalf Of Thierry Koblentz Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:29 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms TK fwiw, I think BRs are the perfect fit. BRs? Are BRs semantically correct? I believe they aren't. 9.3.2 Controlling line breaks [1] A line break is defined to be a carriage return (#x000D;), a line feed (#x000A;), or a carriage return/line feed pair. All line breaks constitute white space. And if you ask me, I prefer to use BRs in forms than in other places for the sole purpose of clearing elements ;) [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#h-9.3.2 -- Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] running ie7 on my mac??
Can't seem to find a mac link to download wine...my impression was that you needed darwine for this. Am i missing something? James De Angelis, Designer reactive www.reactive.com Level 1, 490 Crown Street p: +61 2 9339 1001 Surry Hills NSW, 2010 f: +61 2 9380 4787 Australia e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reactive Blog: Observations and musings for people who know the internet isn’t just a fad www.reactive.com/blog Environmental Notice: Please consider the environment before printing this email. This message and any attached files may contain information that is confidential and/or subject of legal privilege intended only for use by the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this message in error and that any dissemination, copying or use of this message or attachment is strictly forbidden, as is the disclosure of the information therein. If you have received this message in error please notify the sender immediately and delete the message. Reactive maintains up-to-date virus checking software and we recommend that you also employ resident virus protection. We have taken precautions to minimise the risk of transmitting viruses, but we advise that you carry out your own virus checking on this e-mail and any attachments. On 08/02/2008, at 7:13 AM, Joe Ortenzi wrote: I found that out! darwine won't load them On Feb 7 2008, at 13:07, kevin mcmonagle wrote: note to anyone who wants to run ies4mac. install wine verstion .51 the current version doesnt work. -kevin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Styling forms
Hello Thomas, How does screenreaders treat using just labelinput//label? I'm writing an article on just that thing now. Jaws is okay with it, but Windows Eyes chokes on it. That in itself may not be too-too important due to the number of users, but I'm 99.99% sure that Safari on Mac users will have difficulty (at best) actually inputting content in such a form input. I can't replicate this on Safari for Windows, but I have gotten lots of feedback to go on. I actually just updated both of my version two contact forms today to correct this (v3 was already fixed). I've been fixing forms all day actually. I have come to the conclusion that the only proper method is... label for=fooFoo Text/label input id=foo Though I suppose input alt=Foo Text would also be okay. Cheers. Mike - Original Message - From: Thomas Thomassen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 4:36 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms hm... this thread has given me a thinker. How does screenreaders treat using just labelinput//label? form fieldset labelFoo: input id=foo//label labelBar: input id=bar//label /fieldset /form How will it present the form? If it's all inline, will it be read continuous, or will there be a break between the elements? - Original Message - From: Joe Ortenzi To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 9:31 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms Well done Alexey! Are we not confusing semantics with presentational here? if it is OK to strip the presentational out of a list element (when we use a list for a navigation group and want our navigation elements in a row instead of a column) what is wrong with supplanting the inline quality of a label/input group by designating it a block element, and then group several form elements, or even each label input group with fieldsets? BTW: br / is the equivalent of a force carriage return and thus belongs within paragraphs, i thought! Joe On Feb 7 2008, at 19:55, Алексей Новиков wrote: On Behalf Of Thierry Koblentz Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:29 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms TK fwiw, I think BRs are the perfect fit. BRs? Are BRs semantically correct? I believe they aren't. -- Regards, Alexey Novikov http://studiomade.ru *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Styling forms
Michael Horowitz wrote: I've been looking at styling forms and I'm seeing some people mark them up as ordered lists and other using paragraphs. What are the arguments for the different markup types. from what I can see the reason lists have come into use in forms has a lot to do with javascript libraries that have re-ordering of elements by drag and drop that tend to work mainly on lists. Therefore lists are useful to wrap form elements if you are creating form building software so the form elements can be easily reordered by non-technical users. -- Chris Knowles *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] display differences firefox ie 7.0
On 7 Feb 2008, at 10:31, Darren Lovelock wrote:
If you place text-align: center; on the body tag in the CSS and
then margin: auto; on the first 'container' divider then the web
page should be centralised in Firefox and IE.
Like this:
body { text-align: center; }
#container { width: 960px; margin: auto; }
If you use that technique, then don't forget to set text-align back
to left on #container.
... but it is pretty pointless today - IE has supported margin: auto
for many years now. Just make sure you aren't in quirks mode.
--
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk/
http://blog.dorward.me.uk/
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
Re: [WSG] Styling forms
hm... this thread has given me a thinker. How does screenreaders treat using just labelinput//label? form fieldset labelFoo: input id=foo//label labelBar: input id=bar//label /fieldset /form How will it present the form? If it's all inline, will it be read continuous, or will there be a break between the elements? - Original Message - From: Joe Ortenzi To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 9:31 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms Well done Alexey! Are we not confusing semantics with presentational here? if it is OK to strip the presentational out of a list element (when we use a list for a navigation group and want our navigation elements in a row instead of a column) what is wrong with supplanting the inline quality of a label/input group by designating it a block element, and then group several form elements, or even each label input group with fieldsets? BTW: br / is the equivalent of a force carriage return and thus belongs within paragraphs, i thought! Joe On Feb 7 2008, at 19:55, Алексей Новиков wrote: On Behalf Of Thierry Koblentz Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:29 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms TK fwiw, I think BRs are the perfect fit. BRs? Are BRs semantically correct? I believe they aren't. -- Regards, Alexey Novikov http://studiomade.ru *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Styling forms
I got a better theory on why lists are used for forms... people have fallen for lists and believe that they are the bees knees for every (x)html problem they encounter. Chris Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] 8/02/2008 6:53:08 am Michael Horowitz wrote: I've been looking at styling forms and I'm seeing some people mark them up as ordered lists and other using paragraphs. What are the arguments for the different markup types. from what I can see the reason lists have come into use in forms has a lot to do with javascript libraries that have re-ordering of elements by drag and drop that tend to work mainly on lists. Therefore lists are useful to wrap form elements if you are creating form building software so the form elements can be easily reordered by non-technical users. -- Chris Knowles *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ** The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security requirements for inbound transmission. ** The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for outbound transmission. This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential and privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email (facsimile) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email (facsimile) in error please contact the Insurance Commission. Web: www.icwa.wa.gov.au Phone: +61 08 9264 * *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [WSG] Styling forms
Chris Knowles wrote: CK from what I can see the reason lists have come into use in forms has a CK lot to do with javascript libraries that have re-ordering of elements by CK drag and drop that tend to work mainly on lists. Therefore lists are CK useful to wrap form elements if you are creating form building software CK so the form elements can be easily reordered by non-technical users. I suppose that form elements can be easily reordered even if form elements are not LI-wrapped. Can't they? Regards, Alexey Novikov http://studiomade.ru *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Styling forms
That's really interesting Mike. After visiting a conference a couple of years ago where a demonstration was given on screen reader use of forms, I have been wrapping the input in a label and having a for attribute set. Both were presented as being equally accessible (the demo must have been in JAWS), and wrapping the input made it easier to style. I'd be very interested in reading your article when it's ready :o) Rachel May P +64-4-384-3546 E [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Survey Company Level 1, 50 Manners St PO Box 6859, Marion Square Wellington www.thesurveycompany.com The Survey Company is a division of Heliocell Ltd. PLEASE NOTE: This email message and accompanying data may contain information that is confidential and subject to legal privilege. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any use dissemination distribution or copying of this message or data is prohibited. If you have received this email message in error please notify us immediately and erase all copies of the message and attachments. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender states them, with requisite authority, to be those of Heliocell Ltd. The recipient stated is the sole intended recipient and this email is not to be forwarded or shared digitally without the permission of the sender. Thank you -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike at Green-Beast.com Sent: Friday, 8 February 2008 11:24 a.m. To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms Hello Thomas, How does screenreaders treat using just labelinput//label? I'm writing an article on just that thing now. Jaws is okay with it, but Windows Eyes chokes on it. That in itself may not be too-too important due to the number of users, but I'm 99.99% sure that Safari on Mac users will have difficulty (at best) actually inputting content in such a form input. I can't replicate this on Safari for Windows, but I have gotten lots of feedback to go on. I actually just updated both of my version two contact forms today to correct this (v3 was already fixed). I've been fixing forms all day actually. I have come to the conclusion that the only proper method is... label for=fooFoo Text/label input id=foo Though I suppose input alt=Foo Text would also be okay. Cheers. Mike - Original Message - From: Thomas Thomassen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 4:36 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms hm... this thread has given me a thinker. How does screenreaders treat using just labelinput//label? form fieldset labelFoo: input id=foo//label labelBar: input id=bar//label /fieldset /form How will it present the form? If it's all inline, will it be read continuous, or will there be a break between the elements? - Original Message - From: Joe Ortenzi To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 9:31 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms Well done Alexey! Are we not confusing semantics with presentational here? if it is OK to strip the presentational out of a list element (when we use a list for a navigation group and want our navigation elements in a row instead of a column) what is wrong with supplanting the inline quality of a label/input group by designating it a block element, and then group several form elements, or even each label input group with fieldsets? BTW: br / is the equivalent of a force carriage return and thus belongs within paragraphs, i thought! Joe On Feb 7 2008, at 19:55, Алексей Новиков wrote: On Behalf Of Thierry Koblentz Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:29 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms TK fwiw, I think BRs are the perfect fit. BRs? Are BRs semantically correct? I believe they aren't. -- Regards, Alexey Novikov http://studiomade.ru *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Styling forms
As far as CSS formating goes, I find it easier when the label doesn't wrap the input. Also, I believe that is the same reason that lists have made their way into forms, because it makes them that much easier to format and gives you something else to grab onto. Rachel May wrote: That's really interesting Mike. After visiting a conference a couple of years ago where a demonstration was given on screen reader use of forms, I have been wrapping the input in a label and having a for attribute set. Both were presented as being equally accessible (the demo must have been in JAWS), and wrapping the input made it easier to style. I'd be very interested in reading your article when it's ready :o) Rachel May P +64-4-384-3546 E [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Survey Company Level 1, 50 Manners St PO Box 6859, Marion Square Wellington www.thesurveycompany.com The Survey Company is a division of Heliocell Ltd. PLEASE NOTE: This email message and accompanying data may contain information that is confidential and subject to legal privilege. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any use dissemination distribution or copying of this message or data is prohibited. If you have received this email message in error please notify us immediately and erase all copies of the message and attachments. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender states them, with requisite authority, to be those of Heliocell Ltd. The recipient stated is the sole intended recipient and this email is not to be forwarded or shared digitally without the permission of the sender. Thank you -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike at Green-Beast.com Sent: Friday, 8 February 2008 11:24 a.m. To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms Hello Thomas, How does screenreaders treat using just labelinput//label? I'm writing an article on just that thing now. Jaws is okay with it, but Windows Eyes chokes on it. That in itself may not be too-too important due to the number of users, but I'm 99.99% sure that Safari on Mac users will have difficulty (at best) actually inputting content in such a form input. I can't replicate this on Safari for Windows, but I have gotten lots of feedback to go on. I actually just updated both of my version two contact forms today to correct this (v3 was already fixed). I've been fixing forms all day actually. I have come to the conclusion that the only proper method is... label for=fooFoo Text/label input id=foo Though I suppose input alt=Foo Text would also be okay. Cheers. Mike - Original Message - From: Thomas Thomassen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 4:36 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms hm... this thread has given me a thinker. How does screenreaders treat using just labelinput//label? form fieldset labelFoo: input id=foo//label labelBar: input id=bar//label /fieldset /form How will it present the form? If it's all inline, will it be read continuous, or will there be a break between the elements? - Original Message - From: Joe Ortenzi To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 9:31 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms Well done Alexey! Are we not confusing semantics with presentational here? if it is OK to strip the presentational out of a list element (when we use a list for a navigation group and want our navigation elements in a row instead of a column) what is wrong with supplanting the inline quality of a label/input group by designating it a block element, and then group several form elements, or even each label input group with fieldsets? BTW: br / is the equivalent of a force carriage return and thus belongs within paragraphs, i thought! Joe On Feb 7 2008, at 19:55, Алексей Новиков wrote: On Behalf Of Thierry Koblentz Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 10:29 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling forms TK fwiw, I think BRs are the perfect fit. BRs? Are BRs semantically correct? I believe they aren't. -- Regards, Alexey Novikov http://studiomade.ru *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [WSG] running ie7 on my mac??
and remember that Wine is an emulation layer, it may not give the same results as virtualising Windows (which is a standard Windows install). It depends on how good the emulation is. For instance, before using virtualisation to test IE in XP, I was using Wine and ies4linux and not getting very good Javascript results. Cheers James On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 12:07:05 am kevin mcmonagle wrote: note to anyone who wants to run ies4mac. install wine verstion .51 the current version doesnt work. -kevin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [WSG] Styling forms
I would have thought so. Isn't that what the id attribute is used for? Something for JavaScript to reference? On Feb 7 2008, at 22:17, Алексей Новиков wrote: Chris Knowles wrote: CK from what I can see the reason lists have come into use in forms has a CK lot to do with javascript libraries that have re-ordering of elements by CK drag and drop that tend to work mainly on lists. Therefore lists are CK useful to wrap form elements if you are creating form building software CK so the form elements can be easily reordered by non-technical users. I suppose that form elements can be easily reordered even if form elements are not LI-wrapped. Can't they? Regards, Alexey Novikov http://studiomade.ru *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [OBORONA-SPAM] Re: [WSG] Styling forms
Joe Ortenzi wrote: I would have thought so. Isn't that what the id attribute is used for? Something for JavaScript to reference? Chris Knowles wrote: CK from what I can see the reason lists have come into use in forms has a CK lot to do with javascript libraries that have re-ordering of elements by CK drag and drop that tend to work mainly on lists. Therefore lists are CK useful to wrap form elements if you are creating form building software CK so the form elements can be easily reordered by non-technical users. I suppose that form elements can be easily reordered even if form elements are not LI-wrapped. Can't they? yes, but my point was that a lot of js libraries base drag and drop re-ordering of elements around list elements and not other elements. And I have noticed a lot of form building services use lists to markup forms because they require drag and drop re-ordering of form elements. So I'm suggesting they are only using list elements because they can add drag and drop easily by using an external library that supports it, not because they think lists are necessarily a good markup choice. -- Chris Knowles *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
