Re: [WSG] Hanging indents

2008-03-21 Thread Stuart Foulstone

Perhaps you could try nested lists.


On Fri, March 21, 2008 1:56 am, Elizabeth Spiegel wrote:
 Hi all

 I'm developing a site for a non-profit organisation and one page is their
 constitution. I'm trying to get the clauses to appear with a hanging
 indent
 as they currently do in the word version:
 http://www.dra.org.au/files/QTI5QDJCKU/DRA-Constitution-Amended-10Feb07%20(6
 7%20KB).doc.  I thought I'd achieved it using a float - see
 www.spiegelweb.com.au/test/dra/constitution_float.html - then looked at it
 in IE 6 and started tearing my hair out.

 I then tried a different approach using white-space: pre;
 www.spiegelweb.com.au/test/dra/constitution.html. I don't like this as it
 relies on multiple spaces and I suspect that it will stop lining up as
 soon
 as fonts other than the default are used.

 Suggestions anyone?  (Note that I can't change the numbering scheme.)

 Elizabeth Spiegel
 Web editing

 0409 986 158
 GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001
 www.spiegelweb.com.au




 ***
 List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
 Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ***




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Hanging indents

2008-03-21 Thread Rob Kirton
Elizabeth

I believe the solution Mike came up with to be a sound one.  However maybe
you should step back and think why this should be a  web page at all.  You
are facing the great problem of trying to make the screen look like print.
Something which drives most of us up the wall at some point.

The document could be made available for download as a PDF and also RTF (for
accessibility purposes).   It is unlikely that your client want to have the
content spidered for search engine purposes.  It also makes the site more
maintainable.  A change to the document doesn't need to have skilled HTML
work carried out on the site. remember you've also got the print style
sheets to contend with.

This approach also means that the document will always appear the way they
intend, irrespective of screen width etc.

just my two penny worth..

-- 
Regards

- Rob

Raising web standards  : http://ele.vation.co.uk
Linking in with others: http://linkedin.com/in/robkirton

On 21/03/2008, Elizabeth Spiegel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hi all

 I'm developing a site for a non-profit organisation and one page is their
 constitution. I'm trying to get the clauses to appear with a hanging
 indent
 as they currently do in the word version:

 http://www.dra.org.au/files/QTI5QDJCKU/DRA-Constitution-Amended-10Feb07%20(6
 7%20KB).doc.  I thought I'd achieved it using a float - see
 www.spiegelweb.com.au/test/dra/constitution_float.html - then looked at it
 in IE 6 and started tearing my hair out.

 I then tried a different approach using white-space: pre;
 www.spiegelweb.com.au/test/dra/constitution.html. I don't like this as it
 relies on multiple spaces and I suspect that it will stop lining up as
 soon
 as fonts other than the default are used.

 Suggestions anyone?  (Note that I can't change the numbering scheme.)

 Elizabeth Spiegel
 Web editing

 0409 986 158
 GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001
 www.spiegelweb.com.au




 ***
 List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
 Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

[WSG] premature to test/worry new site for IE8?

2008-03-21 Thread tee
I am about to start coding for a new site, and client asked me to make  
sure my code will work for IE8, meaning when IE 8 comes out, she  
doesn't need to pay me extra to fix any problem that may occur in IE  
8. Client is from a web media company, though I understand her  
concerns and that she has to answer to her client, but I just don't  
know how or if I should commit to such 'expectation'.


Last time with IE 7, there was no problem and none of the sites I  
coded for her break when  IE 7 came out. I think this version  
targeting thing really got people worry.


Say, I code my CSS with best practice just like I'd always do, and  
treat IE browsers with CC should it be needed. Do I need to worry  
anything with IE8? It didn't occur to me to worry anything at all  
until client was making this request.


Thanks!

tee


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] premature to test/worry new site for IE8?

2008-03-21 Thread Gunlaug Sørtun

tee wrote:
I am about to start coding for a new site, and client asked me to 
make sure my code will work for IE8, meaning when IE 8 comes out, she

 doesn't need to pay me extra to fix any problem that may occur in IE
 8.Client is from a web media company, though I understand her 
concerns and that she has to answer to her client, but I just don't 
know how or if I should commit to such 'expectation'.


You've got no real IE8 to make anything work for yet, so, no.

IE8b1 is so weak and broken that it doesn't make sense to do anything
but reporting its weaknesses back to the IE-team. Better wait for better
betas or the final version, or else you risk ending up having to redo
whatever you do for it now.

IE8 final will probably be relatively standard compliant - based on what
the IE-team has written about it and what one can imagine from studying
IE8b1, so there's a chance we won't have to do much for it if a design
is made to work well in better browsers.

Advice: just make sure IE8 can't see any fixes for IE6 and IE7, or for
IE/Mac, and leave it at that for now.

regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Safari 3.1 and webkit-border-radius

2008-03-21 Thread David Dorward


On 20 Mar 2008, at 19:34, Keryx Web wrote:

tee skrev:


I thought fieldset (with legend) are used only for form elements,  
I am curious why you would used it in your right column's content.


A. It is valid. You may use it according to the DTD.


Many things are valid. The DTD is not expressive of semantics.


B. It is being used for grouping of content.


So?

C. I am not a minimalist in interpreting specs. It was developed  
for forms, but I have not seen that you SHOULD NOT use it outside  
of forms, i.e. it is not verboten.


From the spec:
The FIELDSET element allows authors to group thematically related  
controls and labels. Grouping controls makes it easier for users  
to understand their purpose while simultaneously facilitating  
tabbing navigation for visual user agents and speech navigation  
for speech-oriented user agents. The proper use of this element  
makes documents more accessible.




Grouping controls and labels. Not anything, not content. Just  
controls and labels.



D. It works and has no negative effects that I am aware of.


It has the same negative effects as using tables for layout.


E. I wanted the effect...



Effects are the realm of CSS and JS, not markup.

--
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk/
http://blog.dorward.me.uk/




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] premature to test/worry new site for IE8?

2008-03-21 Thread Andrew Maben

On Mar 21, 2008, at 6:52 AM, tee wrote:


make sure my code will work for IE8...


That's about as reasonable a request as booking a Caribbean cruise in  
hurricane season and asking the cruise company to guarantee fair  
weather...


Andrew







***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

Re: [WSG] Fieldsets outside of forms. Was: Safari 3.1 and webkit-border-radius

2008-03-21 Thread Keryx Web

David Dorward skrev:

 From the spec:
The FIELDSET element allows authors to group thematically related 
controls and labels.  ---


As I said, I am no minimalist. And yes, I have read the spec. It does 
not forbid me to use fieldsets outside of forms. Specs use the language 
of MAY NOT, SHOULD, SHOULD NOT, etc for such scenarios.


I do not wish to enforce my interpretation upon anyone. If someone is 
more of a minimalist in this case than I am - more power to ya! I don't 
mind.



D. It works and has no negative effects that I am aware of.


It has the same negative effects as using tables for layout.


Nope, I can't see that. Tables for layout means that I lose separation 
of concerns. I need to change my HTML-code if I want to rearrange stuff. 
My two fieldsets are no harder to move around than a div.


If I do not wish to use fieldsets anymore, there are only three or four 
small changes to make in my templates for the entire site.


Likewise, tables can produce an effect for screen readers where they 
constantly hear table start, table row, table cell, etc. That 
would be annoying, distracting and confusing. I can't see that my two 
fieldsets would be any such thing, nor have I seen any research that 
claims that to be the case. If someone knows of such research that I've 
missed, I am more than willing to change my mind.



E. I wanted the effect...


Effects are the realm of CSS and JS, not markup.


Generally true, but for me not worth the trouble in this case. Default 
styling of an element (this particular effect I wanted) can be an ally.




Lars Gunther


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] premature to test/worry new site for IE8?

2008-03-21 Thread Thomas Thomassen
I've used conditional comments to serve tweak CSS files to older IE 
versions. When I tested IE8 on my sites they all looked fine and I didn't 
have to add a separate CSS file for it. That's quite a good sign for a beta 
version. (I'm using strict mode here so it triggered IE8's superstandard 
mode.)


However, there is no way to make sure it'll work with IE8 now, as it's still 
in beta. You'd have to wait until the RC builds before you can be even close 
to that.


Provided your CC doesn't feed IE8 with fixes intended for IE5, 6 or 7 I 
think you should be fine. If your client demands you're 100% sure it'll work 
fine then your client is being very unresonable as the product is still 
under heavy development.



- Original Message - 
From: tee [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 11:52 AM
Subject: [WSG] premature to test/worry new site for IE8?


I am about to start coding for a new site, and client asked me to make 
sure my code will work for IE8, meaning when IE 8 comes out, she  doesn't 
need to pay me extra to fix any problem that may occur in IE  8. Client is 
from a web media company, though I understand her  concerns and that she 
has to answer to her client, but I just don't  know how or if I should 
commit to such 'expectation'.


Last time with IE 7, there was no problem and none of the sites I  coded 
for her break when  IE 7 came out. I think this version  targeting thing 
really got people worry.


Say, I code my CSS with best practice just like I'd always do, and  treat 
IE browsers with CC should it be needed. Do I need to worry  anything with 
IE8? It didn't occur to me to worry anything at all  until client was 
making this request.


Thanks!

tee


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***





***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Hanging indents

2008-03-21 Thread Alastair Campbell
 The document could be made available for download as a PDF and also RTF (for
 accessibility purposes).

Joe Clark pulled me up on this, and after checking into it, it is
something of a myth that RTF is good for accessibility. RTF has no
structure and (if I remember correctly) no means of including alt
text.

A PDF could be done accessibly, as could a word doc (Andrew
Kirkpatrick posted on this recently:
http://blogs.adobe.com/accessibility/2008/03/reference_card_for_accessible.html),
but RTF is only good if you want plain text. Every OS includes
something that can open word (=2003) docs, at least as well as an RTF
equivalent would do.

It is akin to a universality vs accessibility arguement, except that
.doc is pretty much as universal these days.

Cheers,

- Alastair


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] premature to test/worry new site for IE8?

2008-03-21 Thread Alastair Campbell
On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 10:52 AM, tee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Last time with IE 7, there was no problem and none of the sites I
  coded for her break when  IE 7 came out. I think this version
  targeting thing really got people worry.

Um, could you just not add the meta tag saying 'treat as IE7'?

-Alastair


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Hanging indents

2008-03-21 Thread Mike at Green-Beast.com

Hello Rob,


facing the great problem of trying to make
the screen look like print.


Good point. I had that issue with a site I recently made. The client wanted 
every entry to look like it did in print. For example, the print version 
used uppercase headings. The client was adding this content to the site, and 
making the headings uppercase (which were not the style of the site). I 
suggested that I could make a style to make the headings uppercase without 
actually making them uppercase. I also noted that unlike the Word version, 
these are real headings so it should be better if anything. But my client 
said that wouldn't fly. The entries were legal documents and had to be 
exact. I argued the point a bit, but I'm not a lawyer, so I gave up.


Cheers.
Mike





***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



[WSG] Re: WSG Digest (Out-of-office)

2008-03-21 Thread Eleanor Tan
Thanks for your email. I'm currently out of the office and will be returning on 
Wednesday 26 March 2008.


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] Webstock recordings now available

2008-03-21 Thread Gonzalo González Mora
On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 5:31 PM, Mike Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 http://webstock.org.nz/past/recordings.php

 Enjoy!

 Mike


 ***
 List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
 Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ***


Could anyone download these files? I'm trying to download the mp3 (because
of the lighter file size) but the speed is 1-3kB/sec and the connection is
interrupted so I can't get the whole file (plus the outrageous time to
download it, around 7hours for 43MB) :( Any chance to upload them to
RapidShare or some other host? I could upload them to my hosting (I've got
plenty of space and bandwidth, so I could store the mp3 there) if you upload
them somewhere so I can download them.

Anyway, much appreciated.

Gonzalo


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Webstock recordings now available

2008-03-21 Thread Conyers, Dwayne
Also Spracht Thierry Koblentz:

 On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 5:31 PM, Mike Brown
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 http://webstock.org.nz/past/recordings.php

 Enjoy!


 Could anyone download these files?

I couldn't download them either


Overall access to the site seems slow.  I figured I would try copying the links 
into GetRight, and let it get whatever whenever until we're good to go.  Knock 
on wood.

Glad to see Molly is on the agenda.  I think my next job will have to be her 
baggage handler.

--
I made magic once.  Now, the sofa is gone.
http://dwacon.blogspot.com




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



[WSG] hCard microformat and phone numbers

2008-03-21 Thread Thierry Koblentz
I need to wrap phone numbers, what's the best way to go for this?

[div class=phones]
[span class=tel][span class=typeHome[/span] +1.415.555.1212[/span]
[span class=tel][span class=typePager[/span] +1.415.555.1212[/span]
[span class=tel][span class=typeOffice[/span] +1.415.555.1212[/span]
[/div]

[div class=tel]
[span class=type]Home[/span][span class=value] +1.415.555.1212[/span]
[span class=type]Pager[/span][span class=value] +1.415.555.1212[/span]
[span class=type]Office[/span][span class=value] +1.415.555.1212[/span]
[/div]


Thanks

--
Regards,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] hCard microformat and phone numbers

2008-03-21 Thread akella
hi,the second one seems more strict to me.
i think our microformats-philosophy is to make it as readable by bots as
possible.
IMHO:
[span class=type]Office[/span][span class=value] +1.415.555.1212[/span]
is simpler to parse than
[span class=tel][span class=typeOffice[/span] +1.415.555.1212[/span]

On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 8:58 PM, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I need to wrap phone numbers, what's the best way to go for this?

 [div class=phones]
 [span class=tel][span class=typeHome[/span] +1.415.555.1212[/span]
 [span class=tel][span class=typePager[/span] +1.415.555.1212[/span]
 [span class=tel][span class=typeOffice[/span] +1.415.555.1212[/span]
 [/div]

 [div class=tel]
 [span class=type]Home[/span][span class=value] +1.415.555.1212[/span]
 [span class=type]Pager[/span][span class=value] +1.415.555.1212[/span]
 [span class=type]Office[/span][span class=value]
 +1.415.555.1212[/span]
 [/div]


 Thanks

 --
 Regards,
 Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com




 ***
 List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
 Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ***




-- 
С уважением,
Юрий akella Артюх,
UA WEB http://uaweb.in.ua,
+38 (096) 970 64 28,
skype: akella_,
icq: 296395204

***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

Re: [WSG] Webstock recordings now available

2008-03-21 Thread E Michael Brandt

Nor I.

--

E. Michael Brandt

www.divahtml.com
www.divahtml.com/products/scripts_dreamweaver_extensions.php
Standards-compliant scripts and Dreamweaver Extensions

www.valleywebdesigns.com/vwd_Vdw.asp
JustSo PictureWindow
JustSo PhotoAlbum, et alia

--


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



RE: [WSG] hCard microformat and phone numbers

2008-03-21 Thread Thierry Koblentz
 the second one seems more strict to me. 
 i think our microformats-philosophy is to make it as readable by bots as
possible.
 IMHO: 
 [span class=type]Office[/span][span class=value]
+1.415.555.1212[/span]
 is simpler to parse than 
 [span class=tel][span class=typeOffice[/span] +1.415.555.1212[/span]
 On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 8:58 PM, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 I need to wrap phone numbers, what's the best way to go for this?

 [div class=phones]
 [span class=tel][span class=typeHome[/span] +1.415.555.1212[/span]
 [span class=tel][span class=typePager[/span] +1.415.555.1212[/span]
 [span class=tel][span class=typeOffice[/span] +1.415.555.1212[/span]
 [/div]

 [div class=tel]
 [span class=type]Home[/span][span class=value] +1.415.555.1212[/span]
 [span class=type]Pager[/span][span class=value]
+1.415.555.1212[/span]
 [span class=type]Office[/span][span class=value]
+1.415.555.1212[/span]
 [/div]

I agree, but the first one would allow more styling options...
So I was hoping more for a same difference, it doesn't matter kind of
answer ;)

--
Regards,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



RE: [WSG] Webstock recordings now available

2008-03-21 Thread Dennis Lapcewich
Return Receipt
   
   Your   RE: [WSG] Webstock recordings now available  
   document:   
   
   wasDennis Lapcewich/R6/USDAFS   
   received
   by: 
   
   at:03/21/2008 14:27:52  
   






***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



RE: [WSG] Webstock recordings now available

2008-03-21 Thread Dennis Lapcewich
Return Receipt
   
   Your   RE: [WSG] Webstock recordings now available  
   document:   
   
   wasDennis Lapcewich/R6/USDAFS   
   received
   by: 
   
   at:03/21/2008 14:27:50  
   






***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Re: [WSG] hello

2008-03-21 Thread willdonovan
I'd also add that the 'Web 2.0' as a word / phrase and phenomena is a 
way of describing the internet and new design concepts to those who make 
decisions on it but don't really have any idea about it.


e.g. Marketing Managers whom have developers and designers telling them 
we need to do this and this to the web site and the manager not seeing 
the pointwhen it looks like their brochure and they do not get many 
complaints.


Oh yeah, and the hits are steady or up!

Like others have said a buzz word, but I think a necessary one.

William

libwebdev wrote:

Kat wrote:
  

Is Web 2.0 larger than the web itself?




I don't know, but it's certainly *beyond* the web. Librarians around
the world have been flapping their arms and gums about Library 2.0
for ages, which, imo, is even more ridiculous than Web 2.0.

lib.


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***


  




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***