Re: [WSG] a target= ” blank” not part of xhtml
Hi , Just wanted to join the chorus and say that poping windows is behaviour and should not be a part of the HTML spec. It really is akin to manipulating browser chrome and other designer land grabs (i.e. forgetting its the users broswer, not yours). Somethings i have found is that the original issue can usually be addressed by using styling to indicate external or document links (and leaving it up to the user to handle that in their prefered way (personaly i like to middle click for a pop under tab)) or for legitimate needs (usually web apps) a JS (behaviour) solution is appropriate. Some of the best include lighbox style popups for 'wizard prompts' or help. Kind Regards, Kane Tapping Web Standards Developer Web and Content Management Services Griffith University. 4111. Australia. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: +61 (0)7 3735 7630 Andrew Maben [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 28/03/2008 02:00 AM Please respond to wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To wsg@webstandardsgroup.org cc Subject Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml On Mar 27, 2008, at 11:44 AM, Michael Horowitz wrote: I can't imagine its better practice to replace it with javascript. No, better practice is to avoid foisting new windows on users altogether. (IMHO - but I don't think I'm alone...) Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] why do some divs shrink wrap and others don't [OT?]
On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 10:30 PM, dwain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: yes, the pix were floated but the nav div was not. i ran a test. i removed the width declaration and floated the nav div. when i check it in ff web dev toolbar the nav div did not shrink wrap or it's contents. I just tried that on your site (removed the width: 30% and added float: left to the #nav div) and it shrinkwraps the nav items as expected. -- - Matthew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a target= blank not part of xhtml
Another solution is http://wili.diegolamonica.info that allow you to open discretional popup windows. That page is in Italian only but in few days it will be translated in more other languages. It doesn't require that you are skilled in javascript, but requires to follow only the instruction that are on the above link and it doesn't ask to add extra markup and if you need you are able to manage popup window with it's settings (toolbar, scrollbars, width, height, etc. etc.). There are some examples on the page in the examples area that will help you to understand how it works. Cheers. Diego On 28/03/2008, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Horowitz Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 8:45 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] a target= blank not part of xhtml I just read how a target=_blank is not part of xhtml Why not. I can't imagine its better practice to replace it with javascript. http://weblogtoolscollection.com/archives/2004/01/02/targetblank-xhtml-10- strict-conversion/ If you really need to open a new window, this JS solution may help as it does not require extra markup: http://tjkdesign.com/articles/popup_window_with_no_extra_markup.asp -- Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- -- Diego La Monica (IWA/HWG) Web: programmazione, standards, accessibilità e 2.0 W3C Protocols and Format Working Group member for IWA/HWG Web Skill Profiles WG Member (http://skillprofiles.eu ) email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Skype: diego.la.monica mobile +393337235382 - Web: http://diegolamonica.info - http://jastegg.it [ Le uova si sono schiuse! ] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Re: WSG Digest (Out of office until Tuesday 1 April)
Congratulations! ;-) On Mar 27 2008, at 17:19, Mark Wooldridge wrote: Hi, I am currently away from the office and will return on Tuesday as a married man. I will attend to you email at that time. If the matter is urgent, please contact Elise Fitzgerald on 9268 2962 or [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am contactable on my mobile if my urgent attention is required, 0414 259 797... Note, I will not answer my phone during the ceremony, 4-5pm on Saturday. Regards, Mark. _ This message (including any attachments) is intended solely for the addressee named and may contain confidential and or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete it and notify the sender. Views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, and are not necessarily the views of the Ministry of Transport (MoT). Whole or parts of this e-mail may be subject to copyright of the Ministry or third parties. You should only re-transmit, distribute or use the material for commercial purposes if you are authorised to do so. Please visit us http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au or http://www. 131500.info *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a target= ” blank” not part of xhtml
Nancy Gill wrote: Actually, this link from the W3C suggests the use of both target and title .. target to open the window and title to tell the user that a new window will open. Example 2: A link that opens in a new window In HTML 4.01 the |target=_blank| attribute can be used on an anchor element to indicate that the URI specified by the href attribute will be opened in a new window. This example shows using the |title| attribute of the anchor element to provide information that the link will be opened in a new window. a href=http://example.com/subscribe.html; target=_blank title=link opens in new window Subscribe to email notifications about breaking news /a from this article: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H33.html Nancy That WCAG2 technique does not suggest the use of target. It merely says that if people *do* use target that way, *then* that link can be complemented with a title, i.e. that page is about the title attribute, not the use of target per se, and it neither approves or disapproves of its use. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml
On 28 Mar 2008, at 05:48, Jixor - Stephen I wrote: Yes but you choose to do so rather than being forced to do so. Usability tests still show that opening a new window confuses people. They can't work out whey they can't go back and don't seem to be aware of the task bar. I'm not sure how users react to tabbed browsers but in my own limited experience its very much the same, they seem totally unaware of the tab bar. The problem is compounded by systems which show only one item in the taskbar for all the windows for a given application. This saves space on the taskbar, but makes it less obvious when a new window is opened. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ http://blog.dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml
Joe Ortenzi wrote: ... The help application opens a new window because it is designed to help you interact with the application you requested help with. It would be pretty dumb to delete the thing that you requested help with to be replaced with the help modal.!! Exactly my point. And exactly the situation with a complex web app. And of course there are other interactions where a separate window is appropriate, as with desktop apps. But web pages rarely And once more, I'm *not* talking about web pages, but about web applications. Perhaps if you've never seen or used one, it's hard to conceptualize, but they exist. -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtuitive.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml
On Mar 28, 2008, at 10:09 AM, Hassan Schroeder wrote: Perhaps if you've never seen or used one, it's hard to conceptualize, but they exist. Ouch... However if the subject is still opening new windows vis a vis the target attribute, it seems to me hard to conceptualize a web app that doesn't rely on both client- and server-side scripting. And returning to the original question: Why not. I can't imagine it's better practice to replace it with javascript. I'd think that in a web app it certainly is better practice to use javascript? What I'm getting from the discussion to this point: web *site* - new window bad; web *app* - new window sometimes necessary target=_blank - deprecated* and probably bad in any circumstance No doubt people will continue to hold different opinions as to how to deal with links to non-HTML documents. For myself I've decided the best course is to offer a direct link and leave it to the user to decide whether to open a new window/tab, and I think this is coming to be the majority and standard position. Those who hold a different view are free to do so, and act accordingly. Andrew *a little bee in my bonnet: deprecated: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deprecated depreciated: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/depreciated *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
I will be out of the office until 2 April 2008. If your matter is urgent, please contact Kenji Walter [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] nest heading properly
My question isn't about how to nest headings properly E823 - 1 instance(s): Heading elements must be ordered properly. For example, in HTML H2 elements should follow H1 elements, H3 elements should follow H2 elements, etc. Developers should not skip levels (e.g., H1 directly to H3). Do not use headings to create font effects. See http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#document-headers (displayed in new window). I am curious how much benefit it goes to accessibility. What ill effect it has on assistive user agents if headings are not nested properly. Semantically, I fully understand the need for proper order of heading elements, but in real world practice, I have yet noticing any site that follow this to the letter, and it's more than a challenge for a complicated columned layout that designer tends to use h3 for every bold text title. Hi Tee, At the University of Illinois, we use a tool called the Functional Accessibility Evaluator (FAE - http://fae.cita.uiuc.edu) that checks for proper header nesting. My understanding is that misuse or improperly nested headings will be confusing to screen reader users when they may be lead to thinking they missed a section head or something. I agree this issue can become a real challenge in terms of source order. -Tim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re[2]: [WSG] Why is u deprecated?
Hello. Is underline really needed? What for? --- С уважением, Алексей Новиков. Электронная почта: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://blog.micromarketing.ru/ Действительно интересный блог об интернете, маркетинге, рекламе и PR своими руками *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] nest heading properly
During user testing I have not seen this cause any problems, particularly when only one level is skipped. It is certainly odd when you jump from an h1 or h2 to an h5 or h6, but users generally take even extreme cases like this in their stride (yes, we do come across sites like this!). In general, coding techniques are so poor and inconsistent that users have pretty low expectations and are grateful when header elements are used at all. It's difficult enough to form a mental model of a page, and in my experience users tend to note the presence of headers as separators between blocks of content but do not pay much attention to the nesting. In my opinion, consistency of use is more important. Of course this reflects the appalling state of web design as it exists now, and maybe in 5 years time standards will have risen sufficiently that users' expectations will be higher. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of tee Sent: 28 March 2008 19:09 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] nest heading properly My question isn't about how to nest headings properly E823 - 1 instance(s): Heading elements must be ordered properly. For example, in HTML H2 elements should follow H1 elements, H3 elements should follow H2 elements, etc. Developers should not skip levels (e.g., H1 directly to H3). Do not use headings to create font effects. See http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#document-headers (displayed in new window). I am curious how much benefit it goes to accessibility. What ill effect it has on assistive user agents if headings are not nested properly. Semantically, I fully understand the need for proper order of heading elements, but in real world practice, I have yet noticing any site that follow this to the letter, and it's more than a challenge for a complicated columned layout that designer tends to use h3 for every bold text title. tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re[2]: [WSG] Why is u deprecated?
At 3/28/2008 01:14 PM, Àëåêñåé Íîâèêîâ wrote: Is underline really needed? What for? Underline is a method for highlighting (emphasizing) Roman text. As far as I know it was invented with the typewriter, being a way to highlight a bit of text using a machine that was limited to a single font family, style, and size. Underlined text in a manuscript is typically typeset in italics. A lot of designers today agree that it's quite ugly and defaces the descenders of the type it highlights, although some type designs use it as a way of getting attention (because it's so ugly) or evoking the historical era of the typewriter. Most aesthetically compassionate people limit its use to hyperlinks where it is the defacto standard; on web pages, any other underlining is discouraged because it makes people expect the underlined text to be hyperlinked. In case google is blocked from your region, here are a couple of references: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underline http://www.flyinglizard.co.nz/typography.php Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***