Re: [WSG] a target= ” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-28 Thread Kane Tapping
Hi ,

Just wanted to join the chorus and say that poping windows is behaviour 
and should not be a part of the HTML spec.

It really is akin to manipulating browser chrome and other designer land 
grabs (i.e. forgetting its the users broswer, not yours).

Somethings i have found is that the original issue can usually be 
addressed by using styling to indicate external or document links (and 
leaving it up to the user to handle that in their prefered way (personaly 
i like to middle click for a pop under tab)) or for legitimate needs 
(usually web apps) a JS (behaviour) solution is appropriate. Some of the 
best include lighbox style popups for 'wizard prompts' or help.

Kind Regards,

Kane Tapping
Web Standards Developer
Web and Content Management Services
Griffith University. 4111. Australia.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Phone: +61 (0)7 3735 7630





Andrew Maben [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
28/03/2008 02:00 AM
Please respond to
wsg@webstandardsgroup.org


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Subject
Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml







On Mar 27, 2008, at 11:44 AM, Michael Horowitz wrote:

I can't imagine its better practice to replace it with javascript.

No, better practice is to avoid foisting new windows on users 
altogether.

(IMHO - but I don't think I'm alone...)

Andrew






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Re: [WSG] why do some divs shrink wrap and others don't [OT?]

2008-03-28 Thread Matthew Pennell
On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 10:30 PM, dwain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 yes, the pix were floated but the nav div was not.  i ran a test.  i
 removed the width declaration and floated the nav div.  when i check it in
 ff web dev toolbar the nav div did not shrink wrap or it's contents.


I just tried that on your site (removed the width: 30% and added float: left
to the #nav div) and it shrinkwraps the nav items as expected.

-- 

- Matthew


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Re: [WSG] a target= blank not part of xhtml

2008-03-28 Thread Diego La Monica
Another solution is http://wili.diegolamonica.info that allow you to open
discretional popup windows.

That page is in Italian only but in few days it will be translated in more
other languages.
It doesn't require that you are skilled in javascript, but requires to
follow only the instruction that are on the above link and it doesn't ask to
add extra markup and if you need you are able to manage popup window with
it's settings (toolbar, scrollbars, width, height, etc. etc.).
There are some examples on the page in the examples area that will help you
to understand how it works.

Cheers.

Diego

On 28/03/2008, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 On

  Behalf Of Michael Horowitz
  Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 8:45 AM
  To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org

  Subject: [WSG] a target= blank not part of xhtml
 
  I just read how a target=_blank is not part of xhtml
 

  Why not.  I can't imagine its better practice to replace it with
 javascript.

 
 http://weblogtoolscollection.com/archives/2004/01/02/targetblank-xhtml-10-
  strict-conversion/


 If you really need to open a new window, this JS solution may help as it
 does not require extra markup:
 http://tjkdesign.com/articles/popup_window_with_no_extra_markup.asp


 --
 Regards,
 Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com






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-- 
--
Diego La Monica (IWA/HWG)
Web: programmazione, standards, accessibilità e 2.0
W3C Protocols and Format Working Group member for IWA/HWG
Web Skill Profiles WG Member (http://skillprofiles.eu )

email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Skype: diego.la.monica
mobile +393337235382 - Web: http://diegolamonica.info - http://jastegg.it [
Le uova si sono schiuse! ]


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Re: [WSG] Re: WSG Digest (Out of office until Tuesday 1 April)

2008-03-28 Thread Joe Ortenzi

Congratulations!
;-)

On Mar 27 2008, at 17:19, Mark Wooldridge wrote:


Hi,

I am currently away from the office and will return on Tuesday as a  
married man.  I will attend to you email at that time.


If the matter is urgent, please contact Elise Fitzgerald on 9268  
2962 or [EMAIL PROTECTED]


I am contactable on my mobile if my urgent attention is required,  
0414 259 797...  Note, I will not answer my phone during the  
ceremony, 4-5pm on Saturday.


Regards,
Mark.

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Joe Ortenzi
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www.joiz.com




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Re: [WSG] a target= ” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-28 Thread Patrick H. Lauke

Nancy Gill wrote:
Actually, this link from the W3C suggests the use of both target and 
title .. target to open the window and title to tell the user that a new 
window will open.
 



  Example 2: A link that opens in a new window

In HTML 4.01 the |target=_blank| attribute can be used on an anchor 
element to indicate that the URI specified by the href attribute will be 
opened in a new window. This example shows using the |title| attribute 
of the anchor element to provide information that the link will be 
opened in a new window.


a href=http://example.com/subscribe.html; 
 target=_blank 
 title=link opens in new window

 Subscribe to email notifications about breaking news
/a

from this article:

http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H33.html

Nancy


That WCAG2 technique does not suggest the use of target. It merely 
says that if people *do* use target that way, *then* that link can be 
complemented with a title, i.e. that page is about the title attribute, 
not the use of target per se, and it neither approves or disapproves of 
its use.


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
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Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-28 Thread David Dorward


On 28 Mar 2008, at 05:48, Jixor - Stephen I wrote:
Yes but you choose to do so rather than being forced to do so.  
Usability tests still show that opening a new window confuses  
people. They can't work out whey they can't go back and don't seem  
to be aware of the task bar. I'm not sure how users react to tabbed  
browsers but in my own limited experience its very much the same,  
they seem totally unaware of the tab bar.



The problem is compounded by systems which show only one item in the  
taskbar for all the windows for a given application. This saves space  
on the taskbar, but makes it less obvious when a new window is opened.


--
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk/
http://blog.dorward.me.uk/




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Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-28 Thread Hassan Schroeder

Joe Ortenzi wrote:


... The help application opens a new window because it is designed to 
help you interact with the application you requested help with. It would 
be pretty dumb to delete the thing that you requested help with to be 
replaced with the help modal.!!


Exactly my point. And exactly the situation with a complex web app.
And of course there are other interactions where a separate window
is appropriate, as with desktop apps.


But web pages rarely  


And once more, I'm *not* talking about web pages, but about web
applications. Perhaps if you've never seen or used one, it's hard
to conceptualize, but they exist.

--
Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Webtuitive Design ===  (+1) 408-621-3445   === http://webtuitive.com

  dream.  code.


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Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

2008-03-28 Thread Andrew Maben


On Mar 28, 2008, at 10:09 AM, Hassan Schroeder wrote:


Perhaps if you've never seen or used one, it's hard
to conceptualize, but they exist.


Ouch...

However if the subject is still opening new windows vis a vis  the  
target attribute, it seems to me hard to conceptualize a web app  
that doesn't rely on both client- and server-side scripting.


And returning to the original question:

Why not.  I can't imagine it's better practice to replace it with  
javascript.


I'd think that in a web app it certainly is better practice to use  
javascript?


What I'm getting from the discussion to this point:
web *site* - new window bad;
web *app* - new window sometimes necessary
target=_blank - deprecated* and probably bad in any circumstance

No doubt people will continue to hold different opinions as to how to  
deal with links to non-HTML documents. For myself I've decided the  
best course is to offer a direct link and leave it to the user to  
decide whether to open a new window/tab, and I think this is coming  
to be the majority and standard position. Those who hold a  
different view are free to do so, and act accordingly.


Andrew

*a little bee in my bonnet:
deprecated: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deprecated
depreciated: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/depreciated







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[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

2008-03-28 Thread Lesley.Waterhouse
I will be out of the office until 2 April 2008.  If your matter is urgent,
please contact Kenji Walter [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [WSG] nest heading properly

2008-03-28 Thread Tim Offenstein

My question isn't about how to nest headings properly

E823 - 1 instance(s): Heading elements must be ordered properly. For 
example, in HTML H2 elements should follow H1 elements, H3 elements 
should follow H2 elements, etc. Developers should not skip levels 
(e.g., H1 directly to H3). Do not use headings to create font 
effects. See 
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#document-headers (displayed 
in new window).


I am curious how much benefit it goes to accessibility. What ill 
effect it has on assistive user agents if headings are not nested 
properly.


Semantically, I fully understand the need for proper order of 
heading elements, but in real world practice, I have yet noticing 
any site that follow this to the letter, and it's more than a 
challenge for a complicated columned layout that designer tends to 
use h3 for every bold text title.


Hi Tee,

At the University of Illinois, we use a tool called the Functional 
Accessibility Evaluator (FAE - http://fae.cita.uiuc.edu) that checks 
for proper header nesting. My understanding is that misuse or 
improperly nested headings will be confusing to screen reader users 
when they may be lead to thinking they missed a section head or 
something.


I agree this issue can become a real challenge in terms of source order.

-Tim


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Re[2]: [WSG] Why is u deprecated?

2008-03-28 Thread Алексей Новиков
Hello.

Is underline really needed? What for?


--- 
С уважением,
Алексей Новиков.

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RE: [WSG] nest heading properly

2008-03-28 Thread Steve Green
During user testing I have not seen this cause any problems, particularly
when only one level is skipped. It is certainly odd when you jump from an
h1 or h2 to an h5 or h6, but users generally take even extreme cases
like this in their stride (yes, we do come across sites like this!). In
general, coding techniques are so poor and inconsistent that users have
pretty low expectations and are grateful when header elements are used at
all.

It's difficult enough to form a mental model of a page, and in my experience
users tend to note the presence of headers as separators between blocks of
content but do not pay much attention to the nesting. In my opinion,
consistency of use is more important. Of course this reflects the appalling
state of web design as it exists now, and maybe in 5 years time standards
will have risen sufficiently that users' expectations will be higher.

Steve

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of tee
Sent: 28 March 2008 19:09
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] nest heading properly

My question isn't about how to nest headings properly

E823 - 1 instance(s): Heading elements must be ordered properly. For
example, in HTML H2 elements should follow H1 elements, H3 elements should
follow H2 elements, etc. Developers should not skip levels (e.g., H1
directly to H3). Do not use headings to create font effects.  
See http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#document-headers
(displayed in new window).

I am curious how much benefit it goes to accessibility. What ill effect it
has on assistive user agents if headings are not nested properly.

Semantically, I fully understand the need for proper order of heading
elements, but in real world practice, I have yet noticing any site that
follow this to the letter, and it's more than a challenge for a complicated
columned layout that designer tends to use h3 for every bold text title.


tee




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Re[2]: [WSG] Why is u deprecated?

2008-03-28 Thread Paul Novitski

At 3/28/2008 01:14 PM, Àëåêñåé Íîâèêîâ wrote:

Is underline really needed? What for?



Underline is a method for highlighting 
(emphasizing) Roman text.  As far as I know it 
was invented with the typewriter, being a way to 
highlight a bit of text using a machine that was 
limited to a single font family, style, and 
size.  Underlined text in a manuscript is 
typically typeset in italics.  A lot of designers 
today agree that it's quite ugly and defaces the 
descenders of the type it highlights, although 
some type designs use it as a way of getting 
attention (because it's so ugly) or evoking the 
historical era of the typewriter.  Most 
aesthetically compassionate people limit its use 
to hyperlinks where it is the defacto standard; 
on web pages, any other underlining is 
discouraged because it makes people expect the 
underlined text to be hyperlinked.


In case google is blocked from your region, here are a couple of references:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underline
http://www.flyinglizard.co.nz/typography.php

Regards,

Paul
__

Paul Novitski
Juniper Webcraft Ltd.
http://juniperwebcraft.com 




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