Re: Standards slipping (was RE: [WSG] USERS - was [Why is deprecated?]
Hi I read through that post and the available comments and I'd say it's a bit pedantic of the author to go on about a subset of an application and link that to the end of XHTML and worse. Especially one that seems to be third party and incorporated into WP. The author also confuses the functions of getting your data from a source (the application) and sending it to a browser/device (the output method). The two are distinct (although sometimes the lines blur). Writing web applications is a process of gradual improvement rather than spot on standards the first time (although that may happen from time to time). Remember also that standards are a stepping stone to building web applications - not the be-all and end-all. Nobody kills kittens when a validation error occurs, nobody should, least of all your favourite deity. Implementing a feature that will bring in greater market share, more users and therefore more revenue has to be considered along with any improvement process involving incorporation of standards. If you add a feature that brings in a few thousand users while not initially supporting the standards then you have more revenue to improve that feature to satisfy the outliers that demand full compliance. It would, of course, be even better to implement a feature that incorporates the accepted standard from the start - but the world doesn't always work that way. Take the Gallery option talked about in this link - if the author(s) of it cannot provide a standards compliant option within the launch timeframe of any app that includes it - and the app is not relying on it for core functions then the app is going to be launched, with a X.x point release probably bringing the gallery up to speed. With open source applications especially there is a process for reporting and fixing bugs that often proves cumbersome to some - and chiding the app's developers does nothing to assist in fixing the issues (in fact it may produce the opposite effect). Finally, focusing back on WP, it does what it does well - providing free publishing to a huge audience in a semi-standards compliant way. If you step back, it can be seen as a glorified way of saving content with a "wp unified" way of rendering that data. And I guess that's my point - it can save your content but you can use any codebase (not just the WP software) to access the database and visualise your data in any way you see fit (even XHTML1 strict). And that's really true for any application that uses any type of data storage medium. Cheers James On Tue, 1 Apr 2008 11:44:06 am Andrew Boyd wrote: > Stuart, > > I would have to add "..and watch those standards disregarded by popular > Open Source and commercial applications". > > For an interesting tale of standards and Standards slipping, please see > http://realtech.burningbird.net/semweb/wordpress-25-releases/ - the comment > discussion taking place is quite informative. > > Cheers, Andrew > > Andrew Boyd > Consultant > SMS Management & Technology > > M 0413 048 542 > T +61 2 6279 7100 > F +61 2 6279 7101 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > About SMS: Ground Floor, 8 Brindabella Circuit, CANBERRA AIRPORT ACT 2609 > www.smsmt.com SMS Management & Technology (SMS) [ASX:SMX] is Australia's > largest, publicly listed Management Services company. We solve complex > problems and transform business through Consulting, People and Technology > *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Standards slipping (was RE: [WSG] USERS - was [Why is deprecated?]
Stuart, I would have to add "..and watch those standards disregarded by popular Open Source and commercial applications". For an interesting tale of standards and Standards slipping, please see http://realtech.burningbird.net/semweb/wordpress-25-releases/ - the comment discussion taking place is quite informative. Cheers, Andrew Andrew Boyd Consultant SMS Management & Technology M 0413 048 542 T +61 2 6279 7100 F +61 2 6279 7101 [EMAIL PROTECTED] About SMS: Ground Floor, 8 Brindabella Circuit, CANBERRA AIRPORT ACT 2609 www.smsmt.com SMS Management & Technology (SMS) [ASX:SMX] is Australia's largest, publicly listed Management Services company. We solve complex problems and transform business through Consulting, People and Technology From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 1 April 2008 2:26 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] USERS - was [Why is deprecated?] While yet another 50+ age group, who invented the Internet and the World Wide Web, continue to set the standards which stop it descending into chaos. NOTICE - This communication is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking any action in reliance on, this communication by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient of this communication please delete and destroy all copies and telephone SMS Management & Technology on 9696 0911 immediately. Any views expressed in this Communication are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of SMS Management & Technology. Except as required by law, SMS Management & Technology does not represent, warrant and/or guarantee that the integrity of this communication has been maintained nor that the communication is free from errors, virus, interception or interference. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] USERS - was [Why is deprecated?]
While yet another 50+ age group, who invented the Internet and the World Wide Web, continue to set the standards which stop it descending into chaos. On Mon, March 31, 2008 3:39 pm, Michael Horowitz wrote: > I find most do. I think there is a wide disparity depending on who you > work with. Over time we are going to move to a much more educated group > of users. Students coming out of college now are highly computer > literate and web savvy. The next generation of users growing up using > myspace and linked in are not going to have problems using the back > button. And they will be used to seeing various different types of > links actually used rather than what we say they "should" be. On the > other and the current older generation which makes up a lot of senior > managements 50+ age group may be the group you are discussing. One > group has never known a world without the web and sees it an an integral > part of their generations social identity while the other group first > started to use it as needed for business. > > Michael Horowitz > Your Computer Consultant > http://yourcomputerconsultant.com > 561-394-9079 > > > > Designer wrote: >> Keryx Web wrote: >> >>> >>> Underlines on paper have no usability impact, since you cant click on >>> it! Underlines on web pages have a usability impact, since people >>> think they are clickable links. >> >> Just out of interest, I did a site map recently and all the links were >> red and underlined, at least on hover. The client moaned and didn't >> like the red or the underline. I explained that it was 'standard >> convention for links'. The response was "oh, I didn't realise that!". >> Thing is, this person and her current staff of three have been using a >> PC since 1998. No one else knew either. So I did a simple test on all >> of them. NO-one (that's big fat zero) knew what the 'back-button' was >> . . . >> >> This is what I find time and time again. Contrary to some of the >> comments l hear on this list, my experience is such that most computer >> users haven't got the first clue about how to use their machines, even >> after ten years . . . >> >> I wish we had real information on this, because it has a direct >> bearing on whether we should be holding users hands whilst designing a >> site, or assuming (wrongly) that users have 'choices'. (open in a new >> tab? you must be joking!!) >> >> Bob >> www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *** >> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm >> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm >> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> *** >> >> > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > *** > > *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] USERS - was [Why is deprecated?]
On Mar 31, 2008, at 7:04 AM, Roberto Castaldo wrote: "If you look at an underlined text, what is your very first idea about it?", and they ALL answered: "That's a really important text"!!! Strictly in the context of text, underlined text is a typographical relative of the double-space following a period: a throwback to the typewriter age... From Wikipedia: An underline is one or more horizontal lines immediately below a portion of writing. Single, and occasionally double, underlining was originally used in hand-written or typewritten documents to emphasise text. In a manuscript to be typeset, various forms of underlining were conventionally used to indicate that text should be set in a special typeface such as italics to show emphasis, part of a procedure known as markup. With the advent of word processing, different typefaces can be used in the manuscript directly, so that underlining is no longer needed for markup; but underlining is sometimes used in documents in its own right. Underlines are sometimes used as a diacritic, to indicate that a letter has a different pronunciation to its non-underlined form. So underlines, in the content of text, serve as a substitute for, or indicator of, emphasis that should more properly be provided by italic (or bold). Is there a browser that supports but not , , , ? The one use that I can imagine would be if attempting to reproduce a typewritten document in its original format. Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] USERS - was [Why is deprecated?]
I find most do. I think there is a wide disparity depending on who you work with. Over time we are going to move to a much more educated group of users. Students coming out of college now are highly computer literate and web savvy. The next generation of users growing up using myspace and linked in are not going to have problems using the back button. And they will be used to seeing various different types of links actually used rather than what we say they "should" be. On the other and the current older generation which makes up a lot of senior managements 50+ age group may be the group you are discussing. One group has never known a world without the web and sees it an an integral part of their generations social identity while the other group first started to use it as needed for business. Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 Designer wrote: Keryx Web wrote: Underlines on paper have no usability impact, since you cant click on it! Underlines on web pages have a usability impact, since people think they are clickable links. Just out of interest, I did a site map recently and all the links were red and underlined, at least on hover. The client moaned and didn't like the red or the underline. I explained that it was 'standard convention for links'. The response was "oh, I didn't realise that!". Thing is, this person and her current staff of three have been using a PC since 1998. No one else knew either. So I did a simple test on all of them. NO-one (that's big fat zero) knew what the 'back-button' was . . . This is what I find time and time again. Contrary to some of the comments l hear on this list, my experience is such that most computer users haven't got the first clue about how to use their machines, even after ten years . . . I wish we had real information on this, because it has a direct bearing on whether we should be holding users hands whilst designing a site, or assuming (wrongly) that users have 'choices'. (open in a new tab? you must be joking!!) Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] USERS - was [Why is deprecated?]
Quoting Roberto Castaldo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: But our challenge (for all of us who "make the Web") is to find out and apply rules which can be useful for the largest majority of users, and we must do it for the Web, not for other media; any Web user should be (or become) used to reasonable Web conventions, not to books ones, problems may occur when conventions coming from different media are scrumbled without any kind of criterion or common sense. That's my opinion is that underlined text CAN generate misunderstanding, and misunderstanding with Web sites navigation should be avoided at all. So I simply avoid underlined text, and use bold or some other typographic effect (font size/design + color) instead. Oh, assolutamente. I wasn't advocating use of underline itself for older audiences - I was actually thinking about the opposite situation: times when you *can* drop the underline, if the context makes it clear enough that something is a link (e.g. left-hand navigation bars). P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team http://streetteam.webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml
I strongly recommend you disable this feature of windows on any systems you set up for the less computer literate because I can tell you form experience with novice users that its a very bad feature. David Dorward wrote: On 28 Mar 2008, at 05:48, Jixor - Stephen I wrote: Yes but you choose to do so rather than being forced to do so. Usability tests still show that opening a new window confuses people. They can't work out whey they can't go back and don't seem to be aware of the task bar. I'm not sure how users react to tabbed browsers but in my own limited experience its very much the same, they seem totally unaware of the tab bar. The problem is compounded by systems which show only one item in the taskbar for all the windows for a given application. This saves space on the taskbar, but makes it less obvious when a new window is opened. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] USERS - was [Why is deprecated?]
Hi all Patrick: Of course, this all also depends on the target audience of your site. Roberto: Completely agree on that. Users are different, their habits are different, their needs are different. As an IT teacher, I am used to face 14-20 yo guys, and for most of them underlined text is equivalent to hyperlink, as most of them use the Web instead of "old fashioned" books (Web Generation... Sic!). But two years ago I spoke to ad "old fashioned" audience, made of Italian literature teachers (average age was 45 or maybe more), and I asked them: "If you look at an underlined text, what is your very first idea about it?", and they ALL answered: "That's a really important text"!!! So, as you said, "absolutely everything is relative". But our challenge (for all of us who "make the Web") is to find out and apply rules which can be useful for the largest majority of users, and we must do it for the Web, not for other media; any Web user should be (or become) used to reasonable Web conventions, not to books ones, problems may occur when conventions coming from different media are scrumbled without any kind of criterion or common sense. That's my opinion is that underlined text CAN generate misunderstanding, and misunderstanding with Web sites navigation should be avoided at all. So I simply avoid underlined text, and use bold or some other typographic effect (font size/design + color) instead. My best regards, Roberto Castaldo --- Roberto Castaldo --- IWA Italy Education and Outreach Manager www.Webaccessibile.Org coordinator W3C WAI WCAG ed E&O WGs Member IWA Italy Web Skills WG Member Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messenger: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype: robertocastaldo64 Cell: +393483700161 --- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] USERS - was [Why is deprecated?]
Of course, this all also depends on the target audience of your site. If it's something aimed at the middle-/upper-class 11-16 market, for instance, you can start to assume a higher IT literacy level. As with anything, absolutely everything is relative :) P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team http://streetteam.webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] USERS - was [Why is deprecated?]
On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 10:02 AM, Designer < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This is what I find time and time again. Contrary to some of the > comments l hear on this list, my experience is such that most computer > users haven't got the first clue about how to use their machines, even > after ten years . . . > I'd agree with this - I once explained to a client over the phone how to copy and paste; he was amazed at how much time he would now be able to save transferring his product details into the CMS... -- - Matthew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] USERS - was [Why is deprecated?]
Keryx Web wrote: Underlines on paper have no usability impact, since you cant click on it! Underlines on web pages have a usability impact, since people think they are clickable links. Just out of interest, I did a site map recently and all the links were red and underlined, at least on hover. The client moaned and didn't like the red or the underline. I explained that it was 'standard convention for links'. The response was "oh, I didn't realise that!". Thing is, this person and her current staff of three have been using a PC since 1998. No one else knew either. So I did a simple test on all of them. NO-one (that's big fat zero) knew what the 'back-button' was . . . This is what I find time and time again. Contrary to some of the comments l hear on this list, my experience is such that most computer users haven't got the first clue about how to use their machines, even after ten years . . . I wish we had real information on this, because it has a direct bearing on whether we should be holding users hands whilst designing a site, or assuming (wrongly) that users have 'choices'. (open in a new tab? you must be joking!!) Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***