Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
On Wed, 7 May 2008 02:35:51 pm Elizabeth Spiegel wrote: It can be great for getting immediate feedback without reloading a page e.g. building a customised bag at Timbuk2: http://www.timbuk2.com/tb2/products/bagbuilder Elizabeth Hi Yes, but that kind of functionality can easily be done with some AJAX know-how. e.g http://www.stripegenerator.com/ Really, from a developers POV, the benefit of Flash was to do the little http fetches from the server without loading the page -- what came to be known as AJAX. It could do it back in 1999 or whenever Flash 3 came out, in a rudimentary way. If you are using Flash just for that then JS/HTTP request can do it just as well, debugging is easier and the license fee is a lot lower :) That's why I stopped using Flash. For design, animation etc, Flash still has the edge although some of the recent SVG improvements are starting to erode that (like resizable SVG backgrounds in Opera 9.5) Cheers James *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
debugging is easier and the license fee is a lot lower :) its all to easy to end up a blind alley with flash also flash often allowed designers to ensure cross platform display Opera 9.5 looks great - very slick and dragonfly will be amazingly advantageous :) 2008/5/7 James Ellis [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Wed, 7 May 2008 02:35:51 pm Elizabeth Spiegel wrote: It can be great for getting immediate feedback without reloading a page e.g. building a customised bag at Timbuk2: http://www.timbuk2.com/tb2/products/bagbuilder Elizabeth Hi Yes, but that kind of functionality can easily be done with some AJAX know-how. e.g http://www.stripegenerator.com/ Really, from a developers POV, the benefit of Flash was to do the little http fetches from the server without loading the page -- what came to be known as AJAX. It could do it back in 1999 or whenever Flash 3 came out, in a rudimentary way. If you are using Flash just for that then JS/HTTP request can do it just as well, debugging is easier and the license fee is a lot lower :) That's why I stopped using Flash. For design, animation etc, Flash still has the edge although some of the recent SVG improvements are starting to erode that (like resizable SVG backgrounds in Opera 9.5) Cheers James *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
some BIG usability NO-NOs I see on a lot of flash sites. intro pages (one of my pet hates - I HATE waiting ... and I'm sure I'm not the only one! - they are pointless and should be BANNED! - if you reallly *must* then make sure there is a non-flash way to skip it) animations in navigation - yes flash can do animations really well - but don't misuse it by making navigation slow for users! (what about people on slow machines?) whole website as one huge swf - making people wait for the whole thing to download before they can see anything! ... this is so obviously bad you'd think it *should* be rare but sadly its still quite common out there - split it up into smaller files and give people something more interesting or useful to look at than loading... within a few seconds! (even on a slow dial-up modem!) - text you can't easily copy/paste (that wasn't actually really intended to be locked down) - if its something you may want people to use or pass on then it is silly to make it more difficult for them to copy/paste. eg If you want people to call you on your office phone or come to your store's street address - then why stop them from copying the number or address to their contact list? - will they bother retyping it and double checking to make sure they haven't got it wrong? probably not! well... actually ... if the main content is text why not publish it as html? flash can do some nice things but I don't think it should ever be used as a *replacement* for html or text! also - don't assume everyone's browser has flash player. eg: mobile phones - some of the more recent models *might* have a mobile flash player ... which btw might handle flash 6 content! - ok maybe an iPhone can do better .. but honestly how many of those do you see about? ... phone models more than about two years old? ... forget it! *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
iPhone can do better does'nt support flash :) 2008/5/7 Michael MD [EMAIL PROTECTED]: some BIG usability NO-NOs I see on a lot of flash sites. intro pages (one of my pet hates - I HATE waiting ... and I'm sure I'm not the only one! - they are pointless and should be BANNED! - if you reallly *must* then make sure there is a non-flash way to skip it) animations in navigation - yes flash can do animations really well - but don't misuse it by making navigation slow for users! (what about people on slow machines?) whole website as one huge swf - making people wait for the whole thing to download before they can see anything! ... this is so obviously bad you'd think it *should* be rare but sadly its still quite common out there - split it up into smaller files and give people something more interesting or useful to look at than loading... within a few seconds! (even on a slow dial-up modem!) - text you can't easily copy/paste (that wasn't actually really intended to be locked down) - if its something you may want people to use or pass on then it is silly to make it more difficult for them to copy/paste. eg If you want people to call you on your office phone or come to your store's street address - then why stop them from copying the number or address to their contact list? - will they bother retyping it and double checking to make sure they haven't got it wrong? probably not! well... actually ... if the main content is text why not publish it as html? flash can do some nice things but I don't think it should ever be used as a *replacement* for html or text! also - don't assume everyone's browser has flash player. eg: mobile phones - some of the more recent models *might* have a mobile flash player ... which btw might handle flash 6 content! - ok maybe an iPhone can do better .. but honestly how many of those do you see about? ... phone models more than about two years old? ... forget it! *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
Only resort to flash if what you want is impossible with plain old html and some javascript thrown in. And if you use flash, make sure there's an alternative. I think this page: http://www.schiphol.nl/toekomst/ ...is a good example of just that. Just turn off javascript and see what happens. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Centered Horizontal List in IE7
Hey, Sent this out, wondering if anyone has any pointers??? IceKat Original Message: Hi everyone, I'm really hoping someone can help me with this bug. I've known about it for a while but am hoping that now that IE7 has been around for a while that a smarter person than me will have figured out a solution. I have a list menu which is supposed to be horizontal and centered. Not a problem right? Wrong. There are three problems. 1. IE7 doesn't use display: inline very well when text is enlarged or made smaller. (just try it and see the mess it creates) 2. The width cannnot be set because the number of items changes on a regular basis without warning. 3. Float combined with margin: 0 auto doesn't work because the width of the ul is always 100% and can't be set smaller because of the reason given above. This is creating a huge problem because I can't center lists without setting a width. Is there a way of getting around this in IE7? Is there a javascript or PHP script which can detect the width of something so I can put that in to the css? Or just fix the problem? Thanks heaps, IceKat. PS- I've heard about either a php function or a meta tag which forces standards? Does anyone know more about it? Might that help? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Centered Horizontal List in IE7
On 07-May-08, at 4:18 PM, IceKat wrote: I have a list menu which is supposed to be horizontal and centered. Does this work for you? http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listamatic/horizontal27.htm Best, - Rahul. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
On 2008/05/05 23:15 (GMT+0300) Michael Persson apparently typed: What do you people, professionals and hobby standardists think about full flash websites?? OK for people whose priorities lie in form rather than substance, but generally no small impediment for many others. Flash players do not exist for every GUI web browsing environment, and AFAIK, they exist for no text-only browsing environment. The exclusivity means lockout, both to real users, and search bots. where is the usability and accessibility for flash in general?? As a practical matter, non-existent. As long as Flash content ignores browser default text size (same as CSS px font sizing) and text zoom (worse than CSS px font sizing), it locks out the many people who can't read its virtually universal mousetype or make sense of its itty bitty images. Flash is functionally a synonym for content-free for an arbitrarily large number of people, sighted users with low vision (or even average vision) and/or using high resolution displays. -- . . . . in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you . . . . Matthew 7:12 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
On May 7, 2008, at 12:03 AM, Susie Gardner-Brown wrote: people think it doesn’t matter what a site looks like as long as it is accessible. Sadly true. But in fact what a site looks like can have a huge impact on its accessibility. I think that notion stems from a rather misplaced notion that somehow accessible equates to no more than can be clearly interpreted by a screen reader. Good design will enhance accessibility for all. To make an extreme analogy: imagine a building whose entrance offers a wheelchair ramp, which is reserved exclusively for wheelchair-bound visitors, while all others are obliged to scale a rock-climbing wall. This may meet the letter of the law in regard to disabled access, but would anyone in their right mind describe this as an accessible building? Which may stray a little from the original point. My take on Flash is that it can offer useful enhancements to a site (though as many have pointed out, there's often a viable alternative using the standard tools of the trade), but fall-backs must be available. As for full- Flash sites, nothing gets me to my back button quicker than a page that arrives with a cute little Site Loading animation... Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
As i started this thred i will also close it and sum the results. I find that we, professionals on wen development are mostly negative to the full flash publishing and also have a attitide that standards are able to implement. What do we do when a client wants flash and dont really understand the neg or pos difficulties. Do we still want the money to produce their website or do we say no because we are web standard freaks and would never touch such a bad usability and accessibilty project dirty money hahaha.. Well would we...?? Content is king but i think also money is Queen or very closely related to the majesty also... Michael Felix Miata wrote: On 2008/05/05 23:15 (GMT+0300) Michael Persson apparently typed: What do you people, professionals and hobby standardists think about full flash websites?? OK for people whose priorities lie in form rather than substance, but generally no small impediment for many others. Flash players do not exist for every GUI web browsing environment, and AFAIK, they exist for no text-only browsing environment. The exclusivity means lockout, both to real users, and search bots. where is the usability and accessibility for flash in general?? As a practical matter, non-existent. As long as Flash content ignores browser default text size (same as CSS px font sizing) and text zoom (worse than CSS px font sizing), it locks out the many people who can't read its virtually universal mousetype or make sense of its itty bitty images. Flash is functionally a synonym for content-free for an arbitrarily large number of people, sighted users with low vision (or even average vision) and/or using high resolution displays. -- Michael Persson front-end developer seo *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Full flash websites
Michael Persson wrote: Do we still want the money to produce their website or do we say no because we are web standard freaks and would never touch such a bad usability and accessibilty project dirty money hahaha.. Well would we...?? If all they want is eye candy give it to them and take the money surely. Just explain that its not going to do well in google and that a hybrid site would be better. Or mabye show him a cms that he can use with a hybrid site and that might get him fired up. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Centered Horizontal List in IE7
Perhaps try it without using the list. Center the links within a div and apply left and right padding to them to ensure adequate spacing. Menu should stay centered and will cater for changing number of menu items. On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 8:48 PM, IceKat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey, Sent this out, wondering if anyone has any pointers??? IceKat Original Message: Hi everyone, I'm really hoping someone can help me with this bug. I've known about it for a while but am hoping that now that IE7 has been around for a while that a smarter person than me will have figured out a solution. I have a list menu which is supposed to be horizontal and centered. Not a problem right? Wrong. There are three problems. 1. IE7 doesn't use display: inline very well when text is enlarged or made smaller. (just try it and see the mess it creates) 2. The width cannnot be set because the number of items changes on a regular basis without warning. 3. Float combined with margin: 0 auto doesn't work because the width of the ul is always 100% and can't be set smaller because of the reason given above. This is creating a huge problem because I can't center lists without setting a width. Is there a way of getting around this in IE7? Is there a javascript or PHP script which can detect the width of something so I can put that in to the css? Or just fix the problem? Thanks heaps, IceKat. PS- I've heard about either a php function or a meta tag which forces standards? Does anyone know more about it? Might that help? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Firefox skips dropdown and multi-select list with tabbing (?)
Using the tabindex attribute on form elements should allow you to specify the tab order. On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 9:57 PM, tee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd just noticed that Firefox skips the dropdown and multi-select list with tabbing. Anybody knows if there is a workround? Thanks! tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Centered Horizontal List in IE7
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of IceKat Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 3:48 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Centered Horizontal List in IE7 Hey, Sent this out, wondering if anyone has any pointers??? Using a Conditional Comment for IE7, you could try: #myList {float:left;position:relative;margin-left:expression(-this.offsetWidth/2);le ft:50%;} Then you'll need to clear that float. As a side note, CSS expressions are bad and should be avoided. -- Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Firefox skips dropdown and multi-select list with tabbing (?)
On 7 May 2008, at 14:54, Scott Limmer wrote: Using the tabindex attribute on form elements should allow you to specify the tab order. This shouldn't help, and is likely to add confusion if there is anything on the page other than form controls. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ http://blog.dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Firefox skips dropdown and multi-select list with tabbing (?)
On 4 May 2008, at 12:57, tee wrote: I'd just noticed that Firefox skips the dropdown and multi-select list with tabbing. Anybody knows if there is a workround? I assume you are using a Mac? Go into the OS X System Preferences, then Keyboard Mouse, then Keyboard and set Full keyboard access to All controls. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ http://blog.dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Full flash websites
Michael MD wrote: also - don't assume everyone's browser has flash player. eg: mobile phones - some of the more recent models *might* have a mobile flash player ... which btw might handle flash 6 content! - ok maybe an iPhone can do better .. but honestly how many of those do you see about? ... phone models more than about two years old? ... forget it! Not to mention some corporate environments that are locked down. Ours has an older version of Flash as our standard, and there are a number of sites that won't display and we are invited to download the newer version - ha! Kerry --- This email, and any attachments, may be confidential and also privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender and delete all copies of this transmission along with any attachments immediately. You should not copy or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other person. --- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Centered Horizontal Menu
On Sun, 04 May 2008 12:36:55 +1000, IceKat wrote: I have a list menu which is supposed to be horizontal and centered. Not a problem right? Wrong. There are three problems. 1. IE7 doesn't use display: inline very well when text is enlarged or made smaller. (just try it and see the mess it creates) 2. The width cannnot be set because the number of items changes on a regular basis without warning. 3. Float combined with margin: 0 auto doesn't work because the width of the ul is always 100% and can't be set smaller because of the reason given above. This is creating a huge problem because I can't center lists without setting a width. Is there a way of getting around this in IE7? Is there a javascript or PHP script which can detect the width of something so I can put that in to the css? Or just fix the problem? The CSS-discuss Wiki has some ideas[1]. Scroll down to the section When you don't know the width. [1] http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CenteringBlockElement Cordially, David -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Centered Horizontal Menu
reply On Thu, 08 May 2008 14:42:40 +1000, David Hucklesby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 04 May 2008 12:36:55 +1000, IceKat wrote: I have a list menu which is supposed to be horizontal and centered. Not a problem right? Wrong. There are three problems. 1. IE7 doesn't use display: inline very well when text is enlarged or made smaller. (just try it and see the mess it creates) 2. The width cannnot be set because the number of items changes on a regular basis without warning. 3. Float combined with margin: 0 auto doesn't work because the width of the ul is always 100% and can't be set smaller because of the reason given above. This is creating a huge problem because I can't center lists without setting a width. Is there a way of getting around this in IE7? Is there a javascript or PHP script which can detect the width of something so I can put that in to the css? Or just fix the problem? The CSS-discuss Wiki has some ideas[1]. Scroll down to the section When you don't know the width. [1] http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CenteringBlockElement Cordially, David -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Full flash websites
Yeah, I think we all are aware of these small problems and i have faced them also producing standard websites for a french company that had IE5.5 a a standard browser... haha We cant expect other non professionals to have the same settings, latest installations and technical experience as us. I resinstalled my work computer some months ago and I had a technical person to do this because we have a deal, Yes he installed all programs i needed and also IE7 ONLY!!!. Stupid me didnt made him understand i need IE6 to make websites for the most of the internet audience... I have now a cracked tripped IE6 that cant have flash installed and i am in need of another new installation again... just need to find the time... Web standards is not always standards for the audience and its dangerous to even think so... Mobile phones. hmmm it is exploding but wh is really making websites for these devices and arent we only technical freaks using them for internet... they are terrible to read and use for services... gmail is ok though, fast and looks ok.. I went out of the limits this morning but i think we have many things to learn about the users of our products online and from there is where we need to build our products... that shold be standards considered... Michael Persson Michael MD wrote: also - don't assume everyone's browser has flash player. eg: mobile phones - some of the more recent models *might* have a mobile flash player ... which btw might handle flash 6 content! - ok maybe an iPhone can do better .. but honestly how many of those do you see about? ... phone models more than about two years old? ... forget it! Not to mention some corporate environments that are locked down. Ours has an older version of Flash as our standard, and there are a number of sites that won't display and we are invited to download the newer version - ha! Kerry --- This email, and any attachments, may be confidential and also privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender and delete all copies of this transmission along with any attachments immediately. You should not copy or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other person. --- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***