Re: [WSG] Full flash websites

2008-05-07 Thread James Ellis

On Wed, 7 May 2008 02:35:51 pm Elizabeth Spiegel wrote:


 It can be great for getting immediate feedback without reloading a page
 e.g. building a customised bag at Timbuk2:
 http://www.timbuk2.com/tb2/products/bagbuilder

 Elizabeth


Hi

Yes, but that kind of functionality can easily be done with some AJAX 
know-how. e.g http://www.stripegenerator.com/

Really, from a developers POV, the benefit of Flash was to do the little http 
fetches from the server without loading the page -- what came to be known as 
AJAX. It could do it back in 1999 or whenever Flash 3 came out, in a 
rudimentary way. If you are using Flash just for that then JS/HTTP request 
can do it just as well, debugging is easier and the license fee is a lot 
lower :) That's why I stopped using Flash.

For design, animation etc, Flash still has the edge although some of the 
recent SVG improvements are starting to erode that (like resizable SVG 
backgrounds in Opera 9.5)

Cheers
James






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Re: [WSG] Full flash websites

2008-05-07 Thread Sam Sherlock

 debugging is easier and the license fee is a lot
 lower :)


its all to easy to end up a blind alley with flash
also flash often allowed designers to ensure cross platform display

 Opera 9.5


looks great - very slick and dragonfly will be amazingly advantageous  :)

2008/5/7 James Ellis [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


 On Wed, 7 May 2008 02:35:51 pm Elizabeth Spiegel wrote:

 
  It can be great for getting immediate feedback without reloading a page
  e.g. building a customised bag at Timbuk2:
  http://www.timbuk2.com/tb2/products/bagbuilder
 
  Elizabeth


 Hi

 Yes, but that kind of functionality can easily be done with some AJAX
 know-how. e.g http://www.stripegenerator.com/

 Really, from a developers POV, the benefit of Flash was to do the little
 http
 fetches from the server without loading the page -- what came to be known
 as
 AJAX. It could do it back in 1999 or whenever Flash 3 came out, in a
 rudimentary way. If you are using Flash just for that then JS/HTTP request
 can do it just as well, debugging is easier and the license fee is a lot
 lower :) That's why I stopped using Flash.

 For design, animation etc, Flash still has the edge although some of the
 recent SVG improvements are starting to erode that (like resizable SVG
 backgrounds in Opera 9.5)

 Cheers
 James






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Re: [WSG] Full flash websites

2008-05-07 Thread Michael MD


some BIG usability NO-NOs I see on a lot of flash sites.

intro pages (one of my pet hates - I HATE waiting ... and I'm sure I'm not
the only one! - they are pointless and should be BANNED! - if you reallly
*must* then make sure there is a non-flash way to skip it)

animations in navigation - yes flash can do animations really well - but 
don't misuse it by making navigation slow for users!

(what about people on slow machines?)

whole website as one huge swf - making people wait for the whole thing to 
download before they can see anything!  ... this is so obviously bad you'd

think it *should* be rare but sadly its still quite common out there
- split it up into smaller files and give people something more interesting 
or useful to look at than loading... within a few seconds! (even on a slow 
dial-up modem!) -


text you can't easily copy/paste (that wasn't actually really intended to be 
locked down)
  - if its something you may want people to use or pass on then it is silly 
to make it more difficult for them to copy/paste.
   eg If you want people to call you on your office phone or come to your 
store's street address - then why stop them from copying the number or 
address to their contact list?
   - will they bother retyping it and double checking to make sure they 
haven't got it wrong? probably not!



well... actually ... if the main content is text why not publish it as html?
flash can do some nice things but I don't think it should ever be used as a 
*replacement* for html or text!


also - don't assume everyone's browser has flash player.
eg: mobile phones - some of the more recent models *might* have a mobile 
flash player ... which btw might handle flash 6 content! - ok maybe an

iPhone can do better .. but honestly how many of those do you see about?
... phone models more than about two years old? ... forget it!









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Re: [WSG] Full flash websites

2008-05-07 Thread Sam Sherlock

 iPhone can do better


does'nt support flash :)

2008/5/7 Michael MD [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


 some BIG usability NO-NOs I see on a lot of flash sites.

 intro pages (one of my pet hates - I HATE waiting ... and I'm sure I'm not
 the only one! - they are pointless and should be BANNED! - if you reallly
 *must* then make sure there is a non-flash way to skip it)

 animations in navigation - yes flash can do animations really well - but
 don't misuse it by making navigation slow for users!
 (what about people on slow machines?)

 whole website as one huge swf - making people wait for the whole thing to
 download before they can see anything!  ... this is so obviously bad you'd
 think it *should* be rare but sadly its still quite common out there
 - split it up into smaller files and give people something more
 interesting or useful to look at than loading... within a few seconds!
 (even on a slow dial-up modem!) -

 text you can't easily copy/paste (that wasn't actually really intended to
 be locked down)
  - if its something you may want people to use or pass on then it is silly
 to make it more difficult for them to copy/paste.
   eg If you want people to call you on your office phone or come to your
 store's street address - then why stop them from copying the number or
 address to their contact list?
   - will they bother retyping it and double checking to make sure they
 haven't got it wrong? probably not!


 well... actually ... if the main content is text why not publish it as
 html?
 flash can do some nice things but I don't think it should ever be used as
 a *replacement* for html or text!

 also - don't assume everyone's browser has flash player.
 eg: mobile phones - some of the more recent models *might* have a mobile
 flash player ... which btw might handle flash 6 content! - ok maybe an
 iPhone can do better .. but honestly how many of those do you see about?
 ... phone models more than about two years old? ... forget it!










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Re: [WSG] Full flash websites

2008-05-07 Thread Matijs
Only resort to flash if what you want is impossible with plain old html and
some javascript thrown in. And if you use flash, make sure there's an
alternative. I think this page:

http://www.schiphol.nl/toekomst/

...is a good example of just that. Just turn off javascript and see what
happens.


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[WSG] Centered Horizontal List in IE7

2008-05-07 Thread IceKat

Hey,

Sent this out, wondering if anyone has any pointers???

IceKat


Original Message:

   Hi everyone,

   I'm really hoping someone can help me with this bug. I've known
   about it for a while but am hoping that now that IE7 has been around
   for a while that a smarter person than me will have figured out a
   solution.

   I have a list menu which is supposed to be horizontal and centered.
   Not a problem right? Wrong. There are three problems.
  1. IE7 doesn't use display: inline very well when text is
   enlarged or made smaller. (just try it and see the mess it creates)
  2. The width cannnot be set because the number of items changes
   on a regular basis without warning.
  3. Float combined with margin: 0 auto doesn't work because the
   width of the ul is always 100% and can't be set smaller because of
   the reason given above.

   This is creating a huge problem because I can't center lists without
   setting a width. Is there a way of getting around this in IE7? Is
   there a javascript or PHP script which can detect the width of
   something so I can put that in to the css? Or just fix the problem?

   Thanks heaps,
   IceKat.

   PS- I've heard about either a php function or a meta tag which
   forces standards? Does anyone know more about it? Might that help?



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Re: [WSG] Centered Horizontal List in IE7

2008-05-07 Thread Rahul Gonsalves

On 07-May-08, at 4:18 PM, IceKat wrote:


I have a list menu which is supposed to be horizontal and centered.


Does this work for you?

http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listamatic/horizontal27.htm

Best,
 - Rahul.


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Re: [WSG] Full flash websites

2008-05-07 Thread Felix Miata
On 2008/05/05 23:15 (GMT+0300) Michael Persson apparently typed:

 What do you people, professionals and hobby standardists think about full
 flash websites??

OK for people whose priorities lie in form rather than substance, but
generally no small impediment for many others. Flash players do not exist for
every GUI web browsing environment, and AFAIK, they exist for no text-only
browsing environment. The exclusivity means lockout, both to real users, and
search bots.

 where is the usability and accessibility for flash in general??

As a practical matter, non-existent. As long as Flash content ignores browser
default text size (same as CSS px font sizing) and text zoom (worse than CSS
px font sizing), it locks out the many people who can't read its virtually
universal mousetype or make sense of its itty bitty images. Flash is
functionally a synonym for content-free for an arbitrarily large number of
people, sighted users with low vision (or even average vision) and/or using
high resolution displays.
-- 
. . . . in everything, do to others what you would
have them do to you . . . .   Matthew 7:12 NIV

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/


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Re: [WSG] Full flash websites

2008-05-07 Thread Andrew Maben

On May 7, 2008, at 12:03 AM, Susie Gardner-Brown wrote:

people think it doesn’t matter what a site looks like as long as it  
is accessible.


Sadly true. But in fact what a site looks like can have a huge  
impact on its accessibility. I think that notion stems from a rather  
misplaced notion that somehow accessible equates to no more than  
can be clearly interpreted by a screen reader. Good design will  
enhance accessibility for all.


To make an extreme analogy: imagine a building whose entrance offers  
a wheelchair ramp, which is reserved exclusively for wheelchair-bound  
visitors, while all others are obliged to scale a rock-climbing wall.  
This may meet the letter of the law in regard to disabled access, but  
would anyone in their right mind describe this as an accessible  
building?


Which may stray a little from the original point. My take on Flash is  
that it can offer useful enhancements to a site (though as many have  
pointed out, there's often a viable alternative using the standard  
tools of the trade), but fall-backs must be available. As for full- 
Flash sites, nothing gets me to my back button quicker than a page  
that arrives with a cute little Site Loading animation...


Andrew







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Re: [WSG] Full flash websites

2008-05-07 Thread Michael Persson

As i started this thred i will also close it and sum the results.

I find that we, professionals on wen development are mostly
negative to the full flash publishing and also have a attitide
that standards are able to implement.

What do we do when a client wants flash and dont really understand
the neg or pos difficulties.

Do we still want the money to produce their website or do we say no
because we are web standard freaks and would never touch such a
bad usability and accessibilty project dirty money hahaha..

Well would we...??

Content is king but i think also money is Queen or very closely
related to the majesty also...


Michael




Felix Miata wrote:

On 2008/05/05 23:15 (GMT+0300) Michael Persson apparently typed:

  

What do you people, professionals and hobby standardists think about full
flash websites??



OK for people whose priorities lie in form rather than substance, but
generally no small impediment for many others. Flash players do not exist for
every GUI web browsing environment, and AFAIK, they exist for no text-only
browsing environment. The exclusivity means lockout, both to real users, and
search bots.

  

where is the usability and accessibility for flash in general??



As a practical matter, non-existent. As long as Flash content ignores browser
default text size (same as CSS px font sizing) and text zoom (worse than CSS
px font sizing), it locks out the many people who can't read its virtually
universal mousetype or make sense of its itty bitty images. Flash is
functionally a synonym for content-free for an arbitrarily large number of
people, sighted users with low vision (or even average vision) and/or using
high resolution displays.
  



--
Michael Persson
front-end developer  seo


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Re: [WSG] Full flash websites

2008-05-07 Thread kevin mcmonagle

Michael Persson wrote:



Do we still want the money to produce their website or do we say no
because we are web standard freaks and would never touch such a
bad usability and accessibilty project dirty money hahaha..

Well would we...?? 

If all they want is eye candy give it to them and take the money surely.
Just explain that its not going to do well in google and that a hybrid 
site would be better.
Or mabye show him a cms that he can use with a hybrid site and that 
might get him fired up.





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Re: [WSG] Centered Horizontal List in IE7

2008-05-07 Thread Scott Limmer
Perhaps try it without using the list. Center the links within a div and
apply left and right padding to them to ensure adequate spacing. Menu should
stay centered and will cater for changing number of menu items.

On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 8:48 PM, IceKat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hey,

 Sent this out, wondering if anyone has any pointers???

 IceKat


 Original Message:

   Hi everyone,

   I'm really hoping someone can help me with this bug. I've known
   about it for a while but am hoping that now that IE7 has been around
   for a while that a smarter person than me will have figured out a
   solution.

   I have a list menu which is supposed to be horizontal and centered.
   Not a problem right? Wrong. There are three problems.
  1. IE7 doesn't use display: inline very well when text is
   enlarged or made smaller. (just try it and see the mess it creates)
  2. The width cannnot be set because the number of items changes
   on a regular basis without warning.
  3. Float combined with margin: 0 auto doesn't work because the
   width of the ul is always 100% and can't be set smaller because of
   the reason given above.

   This is creating a huge problem because I can't center lists without
   setting a width. Is there a way of getting around this in IE7? Is
   there a javascript or PHP script which can detect the width of
   something so I can put that in to the css? Or just fix the problem?

   Thanks heaps,
   IceKat.

   PS- I've heard about either a php function or a meta tag which
   forces standards? Does anyone know more about it? Might that help?



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Re: [WSG] Firefox skips dropdown and multi-select list with tabbing (?)

2008-05-07 Thread Scott Limmer
Using the tabindex attribute on form elements should allow you to specify
the tab order.


On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 9:57 PM, tee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I'd just noticed that Firefox skips the dropdown and multi-select list
 with tabbing.
 Anybody knows if there is a workround?

 Thanks!

 tee


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RE: [WSG] Centered Horizontal List in IE7

2008-05-07 Thread Thierry Koblentz
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of IceKat
 Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 3:48 AM
 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
 Subject: [WSG] Centered Horizontal List in IE7
 
 Hey,
 
 Sent this out, wondering if anyone has any pointers???

Using a Conditional Comment for IE7, you could try:

#myList
{float:left;position:relative;margin-left:expression(-this.offsetWidth/2);le
ft:50%;}

Then you'll need to clear that float.

As a side note, CSS expressions are bad and should be avoided.


-- 
Regards,
Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com







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Re: [WSG] Firefox skips dropdown and multi-select list with tabbing (?)

2008-05-07 Thread David Dorward


On 7 May 2008, at 14:54, Scott Limmer wrote:

Using the tabindex attribute on form elements should allow you to  
specify the tab order.



This shouldn't help, and is likely to add confusion if there is  
anything on the page other than form controls.


--
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk/
http://blog.dorward.me.uk/




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Re: [WSG] Firefox skips dropdown and multi-select list with tabbing (?)

2008-05-07 Thread David Dorward


On 4 May 2008, at 12:57, tee wrote:

I'd just noticed that Firefox skips the dropdown and multi-select  
list with tabbing.

Anybody knows if there is a workround?



I assume you are using a Mac?

Go into the OS X System Preferences, then Keyboard  Mouse, then  
Keyboard and set Full keyboard access to All controls.


--
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk/
http://blog.dorward.me.uk/




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RE: [WSG] Full flash websites

2008-05-07 Thread Webb, KerryA
Michael MD wrote:
  
 also - don't assume everyone's browser has flash player.
 eg: mobile phones - some of the more recent models *might* have a
mobile
 flash player ... which btw might handle flash 6 content! - ok maybe
an
 iPhone can do better .. but honestly how many of those do you see
about?
 ... phone models more than about two years old? ... forget it!
 

Not to mention some corporate environments that are locked down.  Ours
has an older version of Flash as our standard, and there are a number of
sites that won't display and we are invited to download the newer
version - ha!

Kerry 
  
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This email, and any attachments, may be confidential and also privileged. If 
you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender and delete all 
copies of this transmission along with any attachments immediately. You should 
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Re: [WSG] Centered Horizontal Menu

2008-05-07 Thread David Hucklesby
On Sun, 04 May 2008 12:36:55 +1000, IceKat wrote:

 I have a list menu which is supposed to be horizontal and centered. Not a 
 problem
 right? Wrong. There are three problems.
 1. IE7 doesn't use display: inline very well when text is enlarged or made 
 smaller.
 (just try it and see the mess it creates) 2. The width cannnot be set because 
 the
 number of items changes on a regular basis without warning.
 3. Float combined with margin: 0 auto doesn't work because the width of the 
 ul is
 always 100% and can't be set smaller because of the reason given above.

 This is creating a huge problem because I can't center lists without setting 
 a width.
 Is there a way of getting around this in IE7? Is there a javascript or PHP 
 script which
 can detect the width of something so I can put that in to the css? Or just 
 fix the
 problem?

The CSS-discuss Wiki has some ideas[1]. Scroll down to the section
When you don't know the width.

[1] http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CenteringBlockElement

Cordially,
David
--




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Re: [WSG] Centered Horizontal Menu

2008-05-07 Thread Adam Martin

reply

On Thu, 08 May 2008 14:42:40 +1000, David Hucklesby  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



On Sun, 04 May 2008 12:36:55 +1000, IceKat wrote:


I have a list menu which is supposed to be horizontal and centered. Not  
a problem

right? Wrong. There are three problems.
1. IE7 doesn't use display: inline very well when text is enlarged or  
made smaller.
(just try it and see the mess it creates) 2. The width cannnot be set  
because the

number of items changes on a regular basis without warning.
3. Float combined with margin: 0 auto doesn't work because the width of  
the ul is

always 100% and can't be set smaller because of the reason given above.

This is creating a huge problem because I can't center lists without  
setting a width.
Is there a way of getting around this in IE7? Is there a javascript or  
PHP script which
can detect the width of something so I can put that in to the css? Or  
just fix the

problem?


The CSS-discuss Wiki has some ideas[1]. Scroll down to the section
When you don't know the width.

[1] http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CenteringBlockElement

Cordially,
David
--




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--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/


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RE: [WSG] Full flash websites

2008-05-07 Thread Michael Persson

Yeah, I think we all are aware of these small problems and i have faced
them also producing standard websites for a french company that had IE5.5
a a standard browser... haha

We cant expect other non professionals to have the same settings, latest
installations and technical experience as us.

I resinstalled my work computer some months ago and I had a technical
person to do this because we have a deal, Yes he installed all programs i
needed and also IE7 ONLY!!!. Stupid me didnt made him understand i need
IE6 to make websites for the most of the internet audience...

I have now a cracked tripped IE6 that cant have flash installed and i am
in need of another new installation again... just need to find the time...

Web standards is not always standards for the audience and its dangerous
to even think so...

Mobile phones. hmmm it is exploding but wh is really making websites for
these devices and arent we only technical freaks using them for
internet... they are terrible to read and use for services... gmail is ok
though, fast and looks ok..

I went out of the limits this morning but i think we have many things to
learn about the users of our products online and from there is where we
need to build our products... that shold be standards considered...

Michael Persson




 Michael MD wrote:

 also - don't assume everyone's browser has flash player.
 eg: mobile phones - some of the more recent models *might* have a
 mobile
 flash player ... which btw might handle flash 6 content! - ok maybe
 an
 iPhone can do better .. but honestly how many of those do you see
 about?
 ... phone models more than about two years old? ... forget it!


 Not to mention some corporate environments that are locked down.  Ours
 has an older version of Flash as our standard, and there are a number of
 sites that won't display and we are invited to download the newer
 version - ha!

 Kerry

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 If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender and delete
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